Oct. 8, 2023 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
01:05:36
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
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| The thing that the left has done very very effectively is claimed to have a monopoly on morality because it defines morality in quite a narrow way itself. | ||
| It has to be essentially rationally calculable but actually if you think about it a lot a lot of What we actually do that is moral is actually very sentimental and habitual. | ||
| We didn't think about it, we just do it because it's the right thing to do. | ||
| And so if you are actually taking principles like freedom and equality, well actually you can destroy the family with those principles. | ||
| You know, you don't owe anything to your parents and you can't say that your father is superior to you because that's not equality. | ||
| And so you're not bound by being, you didn't choose your parents, and so by the principles of freedom and equality you can be unbound from your own family. | ||
| Like, children can have no responsibility to not only their parents, but their own country. | ||
| And to anything like that, it's like, God, this is actually quite horrific. | ||
| Do I call you Carl, or do I call you Sargon of Akkad, now that we are officially sitting | ||
| down once again after many years? | ||
| I think Carl will do. | ||
|
unidentified
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Carl will do? | |
| Carl will do. | ||
| All right. | ||
| There is a lot I want to talk about with you. | ||
| And I said to you right before we started, of all weeks for you to be in America, because you live across the pond, you came the very week that we're opening up this studio to in-person guests. | ||
| And for people who do not know, who haven't been with me since the beginning of the beginning, when I was waking up to the left, what's going on with the left? | ||
| Why are we calling everybody racist? | ||
| No one's actually acting liberally. | ||
| The Sargon of Akkad story. | ||
| Everybody online, all the commenters said, Dave, you gotta watch this guy Sargon of Akkad. | ||
| I don't know that your face was even in the videos at that time. | ||
| It wasn't at the time. | ||
|
unidentified
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But everybody said, you gotta watch Sargon of Akkad. | |
| I started watching your videos and I'm going, wow, this guy's a liberal and he makes sense. | ||
| And then eventually we started talking, you had me on your show, and in some ways the rest is history, so I think I've done it once or twice over the years, but I give you serious cred for getting me here today because you were one of the first in that way. | ||
| Tell, give the people, like, the two-minute bio about you first, and then we'll get into the politics and the fighting and the craziness and the state of the world and the rest of it. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| And welcome to the free state of Florida. | ||
| It's beautiful. | ||
| It's so much nicer than California. | ||
| There's greenery around, right? | ||
| I'm from England, so if I'm not surrounded by greenery, I get a bit weird and edgy, and California is just this brown, blasted hellscape of dirt, whereas Florida, it's luscious, genuinely luscious. | ||
| Speaking my language. | ||
| It's crazy, because I was the same, though. | ||
| For me, it happened in about 2012, 2013, where I was just... I wasn't even, like, a hard liberal. | ||
| I was just like, well, no, I'm a liberal person, and I believe in, you know, basic liberal ideals, which most of us really do. | ||
| Even the quite conservative people will say, well, actually, yeah, I mean, obviously I want rule of law, freedom of speech, and property rights, and all these sorts of things, right? | ||
| Fairly basic stuff, so it's not stuff we had to think about too often. | ||
| And then we had this very aggressive, and what I now, after the fact, have learned is just essentially an open communist insurrection within liberalism. | ||
| And at the time there weren't Publicly like that, you know, it's it's actually been quite far on that. | ||
| You've got a sound pica being like yes I'm a communist. | ||
| Here's my red flag, you know beneath behind it Which is you know, okay fair enough at least at least it masks off, right? | ||
| Cuz before they would say I'm a liberal but everything around you is racist and we need to redistribute all the wealth That's not very liberal. | ||
| Oh, well, that's refreshing to hear that they're giving up the mantle of liberalism. | ||
| That would be nice It's because they're actually the most illiberal people on the planet. | ||
| I Of course, and they know it as well, that's the thing. | ||
| They are well aware that they're just like, right, okay, what can we do to kind of explode liberalism from the inside? | ||
| And honestly, they've done a good job of it. | ||
| But wait, before we get to them and everything else, so it's 2011-2012, you're saying, you know, I'm just kind of a liberal guy, but now you're doing some stuff on YouTube. | ||
| What was waking you up that kind of made you get into this? | ||
| I was trying to develop a video game and, obviously, being in that sort of space, you start becoming aware of, like, well, feminism, frankly. | ||
| Coming in and attacking the industry as a whole. | ||
| And I was just like, OK, what is this? | ||
| I looked into it and I was like, OK, this isn't really in line with the principles that basically everyone is espousing. | ||
| Why are we stigmatising men? | ||
| And, of course, then that leads on to the stigmatisation of white people and straight people and Anything that they view as what they call a dominant class, it gets stigmatized in order to try and tear it down. | ||
| And so I started making videos just in 2013. | ||
| I think it was July 2013 was my first video where I was just like, look, I don't really agree with this. | ||
| I don't really understand why you're saying it. | ||
| And I think... | ||
| Looking back, I watched my very first video a few years ago. | ||
| Man, I was naive. | ||
| Well, we all were. | ||
| We all were. | ||
| And we were. | ||
| We genuinely were. | ||
| It was like, OK, why don't I just explain why I think you're wrong, and then we'll have a discourse. | ||
| And they were like, oh, you're a misogynist. | ||
| And I was outraged. | ||
| The first time I was called a misogynist, I was genuinely outraged. | ||
| Because of course I'm not a misogynist. | ||
| Why would you even say that? | ||
| It's fair for me to have a critique of your philosophy. | ||
| And they're like, no, you just hate women. | ||
| It's like, oh, right, okay. | ||
| But of course, water off a duck's back these days because you can't critique Black Lives Matter, | ||
| feminism, everything, without being an isthenophobe. | ||
| Obviously, that's become very apparent that they just use that as a sort of defense mechanism | ||
| to try and shut you up. | ||
| But I think that really, that time has passed. | ||
| I think everyone's- 10 years later, the words don't matter | ||
| as much as they used to back then. | ||
| Exactly, everyone's immune to that kind of attack now. | ||
| And so I just started talking about these things from my perspective, which really is still the perspective of a classical liberal. | ||
| I've developed an appreciation of conservatism, like real sort of hearthy conservatism, the sort of genuine bonds of sentiment that tie together people and place and community, building outwards to nation and to humanity. | ||
| I spent a lot of time reading their philosophy, because they're actually really bad at articulating it. | ||
| You probably can't actually name very many conservative philosophers, but you can name dozens of left-wing ones, right? | ||
| And so, it's kind of annoying that the conservatives are actually quite bad at telegraphing their message. | ||
| It's actually a really wholesome message. | ||
| Really, what's the most important thing in your life? | ||
| Well, your family, actually. | ||
| The people who depend on you. | ||
| And so, I've kind of been leaning into that a bit more, but I've still got the same sort of classical liberal core, where it's like, well, obviously people should be treated as individuals in decent ways, but there's more to the good | ||
| life than just being an atomized individual on your own, you know, with just a bunch of | ||
| things given to you by the state. | ||
| There's actually a lot more to the good life than that. | ||
| And so, yeah, I just continued developing. | ||
| I've matured a lot, which is never fun to say, right? | ||
| Because it's, you know, you realize... | ||
| Well, it depends where you end up, I suppose. | ||
| Well, yeah, yeah. | ||
| But it's never fun to say, but I've definitely matured a lot. | ||
| I started a business called Lotuses.com, where we develop, I hate to say it's right-wing philosophy, but I don't really have a better term for it, because everything else seems to be left-wing philosophy. | ||
| But what we're really trying to do is just Properly understand the sort of metaphysics of what it is we actually assume all day every day. | ||
| Because we never talk about the importance of not just family, because it's easy to say that and it's trite to say that. | ||
| It's like, what about the family actually is it that's important? | ||
| And it's really the bonds of reliability on the person, right? | ||
| Because one thing having four kids has taught me, it's The predictability of each day is what's really good for your children. | ||
| It's really what they need. | ||
| They need to wake up and know, Dad's gonna do this, Mum's gonna do this, I'm gonna go to school, and everything will be the same as it was yesterday, and it'll be the same tomorrow. | ||
| And so they can genuinely be happy in the world around them. | ||
| And then when you start thinking like this, you realise, God, the people in charge are totally irresponsible. | ||
| With everything in our state, you know, everything in the country, everything in the West, you know, they're just so cavalier with the decisions that they make. | ||
| And it's like, God, how can they... | ||
| Think like this. | ||
| And I think a lot of it is because we're kind of lent too much towards liberalism and not enough towards what should be a happy marriage between liberalism and conservatism. | ||
| I'm with you, brother. | ||
| I feel it. | ||
| I get it. | ||
| It's why now I say to my audience, I can call myself a conservative. | ||
| I'm married to a man. | ||
| That's not very conservative in the sense that it would have been thought of, say, 50 years ago. | ||
| But I do believe in the family and I believe in the importance of community and things | ||
| like that. | ||
| Do you think that, you sort of hinted at this, but do you think that liberalism had an inherent | ||
| flaw that allowed the barbarians at the gate and then kind of opened the door to the gate? | ||
| Or opened the door to the castle? | ||
| The problem with liberalism, and so I spent a lot of time reading and researching into | ||
| liberalism itself as a philosophy. | ||
| Because so much of it goes unsaid. | ||
| We assume the truth of all of the presuppositions that underpin liberalism, but actually there are some real flaws with it. | ||
| And one of the main things I took away from it is that liberalism is an incomplete philosophy. | ||
| It's not a philosophy for life. | ||
| What it is, is kind of A way of recognising when the state is going too far. | ||
| When you are being actively oppressed, which we've seen recently in the example of Russell Brand. | ||
| Actively being persecuted. | ||
| I mean, what's happening to Russell Brand by the British government at the moment is a violation of Article 39 of Magna Carta. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Like, a man without the lawful judgement of his peers under the law of the land shall not be transgressed upon or pressed upon by the state. | ||
| That's literally what it says, and this is what we're watching happening in real time. | ||
| So it's not enough to just be a liberal. | ||
| But liberalism is great in that regard, in that sort of narrow band. | ||
| It's really good to say, look, these are the rules and the boundaries that have been kind of learned from English political tradition, and then that way they can be spread around the world. | ||
| Brilliant idea. | ||
| But on the other side, it lacks a kind of normative doctrine. | ||
| As in, you know, you get up and say, what should you do today? | ||
| And actually, liberalism doesn't have any answers to this. | ||
| And so this gives the whole world of where conservatives and Christians in particular have lots of good answers for what you should do today. | ||
| No, you should get up. | ||
| You should make your kids breakfast. | ||
| You should get them to school. | ||
| You should go to work. | ||
| You should uphold the right ordering of the world in your actions, in the character of what you do. | ||
| And liberalism really can't say that. | ||
| And so that's why liberalism is kind of vulnerable. | ||
| Because if actually you take away the Christianity, you take away the conservative values, | ||
| then you can take the liberal principles of freedom, equality, and say, right, I can explode these | ||
| out into everything. | ||
| You know, the freedom to never be bothered by another human being. | ||
| So you're just an isolated individual who's there. | ||
| I'm free to take as many drugs as I want. | ||
| I'm free to just become dependent on the government. | ||
| Oh, and we want equality now. | ||
| Right. | ||
| OK. | ||
| Well, how do you get equality? | ||
| Well, you've got to make sure the highest never have more than the lowest. | ||
| So you've got to tax them to equality. | ||
| It's like, well, hang on a second. | ||
| That's not good or just or fair. | ||
| I would say that's not liberal, but it's what liberalism is devolved into. | ||
| You're basically saying there was no stop sign along the way, so it was sort of inevitable that this would happen. | ||
| Once you take away all of the other considerations about the richness of human life, then actually you can take liberal principles and explode them into things they're not meant to be. | ||
| And this is the problem, I think, that the left has right now, and why so many people are just like, OK, I used to be part of the left, but I'm not that. | ||
| So I guess it doesn't shock you then when you look back and you go, okay, you were doing these videos saying, hey, liberals wake up and then a guy like Dave Rubin from the very far left, Young Turks, is kind of waking up and then he's talking to you. | ||
| And then we've seen a series, you know, Bill Maher kind of half wakes up. | ||
| We get a series of people that kind of wake up. | ||
| A lot of them end up going back the other way because the mob freaks them out and they can't, they're not brave enough, okay. | ||
| But I guess you think that it's sort of just like an inevitability of a liberal who's really thinking, right? | ||
| Or something like that? | ||
| I would say it's about intellectual honesty and moral courage. | ||
| Because there are lots of people who are in a very cloying society, in places like California, where it's very oppressive. | ||
| For all of the freedom that they claim to have, actually you don't have the freedom to say, I disagree. | ||
| And this, I think, is really the fundamental precept of what freedom could be. | ||
| If you're not free to disagree with what everyone else is doing, in what way are you really free? | ||
| It was probably only a matter of time until people like yourself, people like me, turned around and said, hang on a minute, I just don't agree with the way that you view the world, I don't agree with what you're doing, and I'm willing to shed the label of being left-wing if it means living an authentic life true to my values and true to what I believe is correct and right and good. | ||
| And I think there are a lot of people who frankly lack that moral courage. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Do you think part of that, it's not just that they're afraid of the mob, but there's something so baked into culture, the default of culture that is left. | ||
| And I know these terms are sort of becoming increasingly meaningless, which is nice to an extent, but that that's what they're really afraid of. | ||
| Like it's automatically like, oh, if you're not for equity, if you're, if you don't think boys or girls, you're automatically framed as a bad guy now. | ||
| And that people just don't want to walk from that. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah. | |
| The thing that the left has done very, very effectively is claimed to have a monopoly on morality, because it defines morality in quite a narrow way itself. | ||
| It has to be essentially rationally calculable, but actually if you think about it, a lot of What we actually do that is moral is actually very sentimental and habitual. | ||
| We didn't think about it, we just do it because it's the right thing to do. | ||
| And so if you are actually taking principles like freedom and equality, well actually you can destroy the family with those principles. | ||
| You know, you don't owe anything to your parents and you can't say that your father is superior to you because that's not equality. | ||
| And so you're not bound by being, you didn't choose your parents, and so by the principles of freedom and equality you can be unbound from your own family. | ||
| Like, children can have no responsibility to not only their parents, but their own country. | ||
| And to anything like that, it's like, God, this is actually quite horrific, right? | ||
| And this is a sort of radical form of morality. | ||
| This is really unusual. | ||
| Like, nowhere else on Earth, you know, even from very, very... | ||
| ...sort of loose civilizations where the society isn't very tightly knit to, you know, deeply tribal societies where literally everyone in the tribe is sort of like second or third cousins or something. | ||
| You know, everything outside of left-wing morality is kind of on a continuum and has been normal for almost all human societies to some degree for all of time. | ||
| And it's only since about the French Revolution, incidentally, where this kind of radical morality asserts itself. | ||
| This is the left and this is the absolute liberation of the individual. | ||
| Really, ultimately, what they want is from the flesh itself. | ||
| This is why they're stigmatising the body. | ||
| Now, that child needs transition. | ||
| Are you mad? | ||
| There's no way a child can give informed consent to transition. | ||
| They can't give informed consent to get a load. | ||
|
unidentified
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You know, they can't drink alcohol. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Right, tattoo. | ||
| Yeah, tattoo. | ||
| You know, they can't chop off their own genitals, you maniacs. | ||
| And so this radical liberatory morality is something really quite new. | ||
| And you are right, it's not just the identity of the left. | ||
| It's not just that they're trapped in it. | ||
| I actually think that they're afraid that if they kind of accept, hang on a second, | ||
| I bought into all of this wholesale, then what they're saying is, I was being evil, | ||
| actually. | ||
| And that's a really difficult thing to look yourself in the mirror and say, oh, everything | ||
| Everything I did was wrong. | ||
| Every time I cheered on a teenage girl who got her breasts removed and stitched up, I was... | ||
| Ruining someone's life, actually. | ||
| And so it's easier to say, no, everything else about human morality is wrong and oppressive and stigmatizing, blah, blah, blah. | ||
| And everything about this is just perfectly good. | ||
| It's just they're bigots. | ||
| It's a way easier thing to do than that. | ||
| All right, so you just gave me the perfect segue to bring up something that I have never talked about on this show, and in some ways I don't really want to talk about, but having you here, I kind of feel like I have to talk about it, which is an old colleague of mine at the Young Turks, Anna Kasparian, who has said some really, really unbelievably horrible, dishonest things about me. | ||
| It's not important, actually. | ||
| I'm not going to repeat any of them. | ||
| The Internet sort of knows what they are, is what it is. | ||
| But we were extremely good friends, invited to my wedding, et cetera, et cetera. | ||
| But apparently, and I only know this from some of the videos that you've done, | ||
| she's having some sort of wake up. She's waking up out of this leftism and this sort of mental prison that you're | ||
| describing. | ||
| You think you can get her over the edge? | ||
| I don't want to try because she's been very embedded, very publicly, in what I would | ||
| call radical left-wing morality for a very long time. | ||
| and... | ||
| Solzhenitsyn has this particular quote that probably everyone knows. | ||
| A lot of the time these people, even when reality is hitting them in the face with the consequence of their own ideology, they won't admit it. | ||
| Anna is being hit in the face with the consequences of this morality and is going, okay, I was wrong. | ||
| Because she, I think she got assaulted by a homeless person outside of her house. | ||
| I think that she's very aware that the trans lobby have got to the point where they're going to degrade her status as woman to merely birthing person or something like that and I'm sure she pays way too much in taxes to Gavin Newsom, which I hear she's not a fan of his policies. | ||
| And so she's got to the point where now it's affecting her. | ||
| Hang on a second. | ||
| Actually, we need to arrest criminals. | ||
| Actually, giving half my wages to the state is not moral. | ||
| This isn't making the world a better place. | ||
| Actually, a lot of the things the left are saying, such as there is no difference between men and women, these are not truths. | ||
| And you can't really build morality on untruths, actually. | ||
| And so I think that she's come to the point where it's untenable for her. | ||
| I think that Cenk is still essentially wedded to the left and left-wing morality. | ||
| And so I think he's afraid of looking at the reflection in the mirror and saying, look, | ||
| this is actually kind of hideous. | ||
| It's kind of maybe this sort of Dorian Gray painting might be a better thing. | ||
| Going and looking at the painting and looking at the rot on the face of the painting | ||
| and being like, oh my god, is that secretly me in my heart? | ||
| And so I'm actually tremendously sympathetic. | ||
| And I realize that that's not probably what you would like to hear, because she was. | ||
| Well, she's been unbelievably nasty and dishonest to me. | ||
| But in a weird way, I am, because I'm sympathetic to people that are waking up to the truth. | ||
| And I would want someone to get to the end of the road. | ||
| And we could still have some disagreements about this and that or the other thing. | ||
| And I'm not expecting nor request an apology. | ||
| But it would be nice to see someone that has some influence waking up to truth. | ||
| That's pretty good. | ||
| A part of me feels that she's kind of the victim of the ideology, and I'm not trying to say that she's got no agency or anything like that, but... Well, she used to say, but way back when, that, you know, when she got there at the Young Turks, she knew nothing about politics, and Cenk taught her everything. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Congratulations! | ||
| And if you're a host on a massive channel, you've got thousands and thousands of people every day either reinforcing what your biases are that you've been taught or castigating you for having an independent thought of your own, you can see how someone would be like, well, I'll just move away from that and into the safe place where I'm allowed to say left-wing things. | ||
| There's a part of me that, I mean, was it Jordan Peterson who called it the mind virus? | ||
|
unidentified
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The woke mind virus? | |
| Well, now it's sort of everybody's saying it, but I think Gad, sadly, said it originally. | ||
| No, that's correct, yeah. | ||
| The Parasitic Mind was one of his books. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| Sorry, Gad. | ||
| He's I think he's right to call it a mind virus and I think that one when you have a kind of disease It's not necessarily your fault if you are in ill temper basically and so there's a part of me that is That doesn't see her necessarily as being the author of the actions. | ||
| She was kind of operating in a pre-planned way. | ||
| If someone is an apostate from leftism, that's worse than being a heretic. | ||
| You know, it's always worse to be the apostate. | ||
| And so it's predictable that she would act that way. | ||
| And one would hope now that with her having a kind of Damascene moment of her own, being like, hang on a second, These people are evil and wrong, and they're cruel. | ||
| They're being cruel to me. | ||
| Maybe she'll think, well, in a way that I was cruel to people I loved, actually. | ||
| And maybe... | ||
| I owe them an apology. | ||
| Was the most shocking part to you as you were talking about this stuff and sort of seeing the hate from, you know, your side so to speak, what I was more amazed by, yes, I was shocked by the hate and I ended up developing an autoimmune disease because of it and lost like 40% of my hair. | ||
| I mean, I could not believe how much hate I was getting from the supposed good guys. | ||
| So I'm not saying that was nothing. | ||
| But the thing that actually shocked me more so, and even to this day still shocks me in a weird way, is how conservatives, who I still might disagree with on some of the social issues, I'm begrudgingly pro-choice. | ||
| I'm married to a man, as I said, like there might be some stuff there that my life is not traditionally conservative, obviously. | ||
| I get nothing but love from them. | ||
| Nothing but love, and I am invited to religious things of various denominations all the time, and I find them acting far more liberally. | ||
| Did that part shock you? | ||
| I mean, well, is that a fair estimation for you, too, that the conservatives, who you were probably disagreeing with, may be on taxes at one point? | ||
| In retrospect, no, but at the time, yes. | ||
| Because one of the things about conservative Morality in itself. | ||
| It's very concerned about... If you picture two people who know each other, you could draw... You know Donnie Darko, he's got the tunnel coming from his chest? | ||
| You could draw one of those connecting the two people. | ||
| You can call that their relationship. | ||
| And that can wax and wane and grow in intensity. | ||
| Like with my wife, we have a very shining connection because we know each other very well. | ||
| We love each other and we've got lots of responsibility. | ||
| Everything's very bound up. | ||
| And so the Conservatives are very concerned about that, and that is maintained by goodwill. | ||
| It's just goodwill. | ||
| It's about being polite to the other person, doing acts of unexpected kindness for the other person. | ||
| You know, you pick up some flowers for your wife, or you take the rubbish out or something, right? | ||
| You don't rampage the city when you're protesting. | ||
| How about that? | ||
| Right? | ||
| They always clean up when they're protesting. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And yeah, no, exactly. | ||
| Because that sort of Donnie Darko bond is everywhere to the conservative. | ||
| They project it onto the place they live. | ||
| And so they'll pick up some rubbish off the street. | ||
| They won't just throw rubbish on the floor, right? | ||
| Because these love bonds that come out of their chests, they... I think it's David Hume who says we kind of spread ourselves on the world around us. | ||
| And that's totally true. | ||
| And that's what the conservatives are like. | ||
| It would shock me if a conservative wasn't sensitive to that. | ||
| And so even if they don't agree with you, they still view you as you. | ||
| You're not just a bad smell or a bad thing to them, you know? | ||
| And so they'll treat you with respect and decency. | ||
| And actually curiosity too, which liberals are the ones that are supposed to be curious, but I found conservatives, they couldn't figure out what to make of me at the beginning. | ||
| This guy's a lefty, he's gay, like what's going on here? | ||
| And then... | ||
| Actually, they live their lives by a code of decency. | ||
| Whereas the left has abandoned that. | ||
| They've said, no, none of that is morality. | ||
| And so they don't need to live their lives by a code of decency. | ||
| So when you see now what's going on in LA and San Francisco, and I'm sure you guys have some versions of it. | ||
| happening in the UK, like the places that liberalism fully took root, which ultimately ended up | ||
| in this progressive, now communist psychosis. | ||
| Like, it seems like the obvious end game to you? | ||
| Like, or is it not over there even? | ||
| Like, when you go to San Francisco and see the devastation, can't get much worse than that, I don't think. | ||
| It can always get worse. | ||
| It can always get worse. | ||
| And it is getting worse. | ||
| That's the thing. | ||
| San Francisco, in fact, is probably a case study of... It's probably going to be... In 50 years time, there'll be tragedies written about San Francisco. | ||
| Because, I mean, I was talking to your producers before the show. | ||
| They're too young to remember, but I remember... | ||
| When I was a teenager, San Francisco and Los Angeles were legendary cities. | ||
| Yeah! | ||
| Legendary. | ||
| Like, the idea that anyone would leave, voluntarily leave these places is just mind-boggling, right? | ||
| But you can see how it's been, they've both been driven into the ground. | ||
| I mean, I was in San Francisco, I think it was 2018 last, and even then it was like the zombie apocalypse in here. | ||
| Like, you were walking around, there's literally zombified drug users on the street, and I was just like, oh my God. | ||
| I can't imagine. | ||
| It's way worse now. | ||
| I can't imagine how much worse it is now. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But it's essentially the reduction of everything good. | ||
| That's what the communists want. | ||
| They won't say that that's what they want, and they'll have some ideal, but if you have to equalize everything, then the only thing you can have is the lowest common denominator. | ||
| So there's only one way to go, and that's down. | ||
| So would you say from an American context, our Democrat Party, and from a British perspective, your Labor Party, are they just like the party members and the party elites? | ||
| Are they just using these people as the pawns in this game? | ||
| Or do you think they believe it too? | ||
| Like Gavin Newsom destroyed San Francisco as mayor, then becomes governor of California, and in essence is destroying California. | ||
| A million people have left in three years. | ||
| Like, what do you think about the people that are actually in charge? | ||
| Just as a quick thing, the Labour Party in Britain has actually changed. | ||
| When Jeremy Corbyn was in charge, it was exactly that. | ||
| Yeah, it was going that. | ||
| It was exactly that kind of radical leftism. | ||
| But actually, Keir Starmer has kicked him out of the party and kicked loads of his supporters out of the party and essentially stolen it back from the radical left. | ||
| So actually, the Labour Party in Britain is more right-wing than the Conservative Party is at the moment. | ||
| I know, it's crazy. | ||
| How would you say they're more right-wing? | ||
| Because they, for example, last year the Conservatives let in a million, 1.2 million immigrants into the country. | ||
| Well, under the Labour Party as it's constituted now, when they began the process of mass immigration, they topped off at about half a million. | ||
| So actually the Conservatives are way worse and the Labour Party will probably reduce the overall amount of immigration. | ||
| Is that just bad governance by the Conservatives, or it was like a plan to really let it... I mean, I know, I guess that's the endless debate in all of Europe. | ||
| If I have an answer to that question, as far as I'm concerned, the Conservative Party is just traitors, right? | ||
| Weak-willed, spineless traitors. | ||
| Because they're not really Conservatives. | ||
| If they were actually Conservatives, they would just say no to a lot of things. | ||
| And really, that's the problem, is we just need an executive who will say, no, we're not doing that. | ||
| No, we're not doing that. | ||
| No, we're not doing that. | ||
| And that's really all it would take to turn our civilizations around, is have the moral fortitude to just refuse when a ridiculous request is made. It's actually not that | ||
| radical. But the morality that overlays what we're talking about, it is a radical change. It would | ||
| mean jettisoning the extreme left. It would just, sorry, we're just not going to do that, | ||
| we're not going to listen to you anymore. But going back to the Democrats, we're | ||
| totally captured and irredeemably so it looks like. | ||
| Give me an idea I can smuggle in. | ||
| To do what happened with your Labour Party. | ||
| I wish there was one. | ||
| Well, how did it happen with your... Well, I guess Corbyn was so out of whack that maybe it became too obvious, right? | ||
| With the Labour Party, what it is, is there's a kind of old English socialism, old British socialism, that is rooted in these kind of conservative mores, where it's like, no, we love the country around us. | ||
| We just want to have the National Health Service. | ||
| We just want some social support because We need it. | ||
| There are poor people in the country who need help. | ||
| And actually, because we're a small, old country, there's a lot more social texture there. | ||
| And so it's easier to pull on that. | ||
| It's a lot more conservative. | ||
| And so the traditional Labour voters themselves are insanely socially conservative. | ||
| Like, they don't believe in any of this radical left-wing stuff. | ||
| And so Corbyn had a bunch of, essentially, students who supported him and joined the party. | ||
| And Keir Starmer just got the vote of the majority of the party, which was about two-thirds of the party. | ||
| And he's not conservative, but he's not a radical leftist. | ||
| Honestly, he's really not very bright. | ||
| So he's not really anything. | ||
| But he's just doing what he can do to get power, right? | ||
| And so that's kind of what happened. | ||
| In America, honestly, I really don't like calling people evil. | ||
| I don't like saying, oh, those people are just malevolent. | ||
| I don't like saying that. | ||
| But it's really hard to be able to formulate any other kind of reason why someone like Gavin Newsom or Joe Biden or whoever would just lie about what it is that's happening. | ||
| They will tell untruths about what you can see in front of your very eyes. | ||
| And I'll say, no, this is what progress looks like. | ||
| It's like, OK, but progress looks like literally the zombie apocalypse. | ||
| You know, I don't want that. | ||
| Whatever you want to call that, I'm against it. | ||
| And I'm for the complete opposite. | ||
| You know, I'm for growth and regeneration, wholesomeness and decency. | ||
| You are for literally giving people drugs. | ||
| You know, giving drug addicts needles. | ||
| And it's not like you don't see what happens because of it. | ||
| He's got a long track record of what happens because of it. | ||
| Right, it's interesting because Biden, I don't think Biden is actually inherently evil. | ||
| I think he's a deeply corrupt part of a machine and he's been in it way too long | ||
| and he's completely mentally compromised right now. | ||
| So I don't think he really knows maybe how evil the machine is using him, something like that. | ||
| Where Newsom, I think it's very clear. | ||
| He knows what the outcome is and he is still going for it. | ||
| So you don't see a way, you don't see, I mean, look, RFK Jr., I would say is an old school liberal, | ||
| much like his uncle and father and the party has completely eliminated him. | ||
| Yeah, absolutely. | ||
| I mean, he... | ||
| They've been ruthless in the demonization of him as well. | ||
| I didn't really know anything about him to be honest. | ||
| You know they won't put him on CNN now. | ||
| Jake Tapper said he's too extreme to interview him, but he'll put on DeSantis now. | ||
| Obviously I don't think DeSantis is extreme. | ||
| But the point is, he's saying that the most conservative guy, I'll put him on, but I won't have this Democrat on. | ||
| And did you know this? | ||
| That the DNC has so rigged the primary for Biden that if RFK shows up in Iowa or any of the early primary states, the votes automatically go to Biden, because they know Biden doesn't have to campaign. | ||
| So they're saying if anyone else running shows up there, the votes go. | ||
| It's so obvious. | ||
| It's so naked. | ||
| And it's hard to say that these people are not Malevolent. | ||
| They know what they're doing. | ||
| So what do you do with that in a society? | ||
| What do you think we do with that? | ||
| I mean, I wanted to feed their ideas, but now they have raised probably two generations of the next set of clones. | ||
| It's hard to say, isn't it? | ||
| Because one thing that I find interesting about America that I don't feel about my own country is The pressure it feels like Americans are under? | ||
| I hear the word fight a lot in America. | ||
| You know, we're fighting for your rights, we're fighting for equal pay, we're fighting for this, we're fighting for that. | ||
| And people on the right, you know, Stephen Crowder uses the word fight a lot as well, and I'm not throwing shade. | ||
| It's just, because I mean, it's a totally rational response. | ||
| If you've got a well-oiled, vast machine that Is not trustworthy and is frankly totalitarian. | ||
| I don't want to say anything too mad for YouTube, obviously. | ||
| Ah, we're on rumble. | ||
| It's okay. | ||
| Oh, okay. | ||
| Well, let's start the election and stuff like this. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You can say whatever you want. | |
| 81 million votes. | ||
| He's more popular than Barack Obama was. | ||
| What do you know? | ||
| If you've got this kind of well-oiled machine that is Constantly trying to take over. | ||
| It's got this voracious appetite. | ||
| It just will not stop. | ||
| Then what do you do? | ||
| You can't not fight back against it. | ||
| But then you're in some kind of social war, where the boundary lines are actually really clearly drawn. | ||
| You know, it's people who are willing to be tolerant of others. | ||
| And this radical left. | ||
| And the radical left is a powerful force in your country. | ||
| It's not nearly as powerful in my country. | ||
| It's actually a lot more insidious in my country. | ||
| And so I don't feel that we're constantly in this kind of social war. | ||
| Whereas Americans, it feels that they're under a lot of pressure. | ||
| And I can see it on the faces of Americans when I'm walking around, man. | ||
| I can see, like they feel the world around them is high stakes. | ||
| There's a lot going on. | ||
| It's not just Miami. | ||
| I've been to lots of places in America You were seeing it in Miami? | ||
| I see a lot of happy people in Miami, but I'm so hopped up on vitamin D down here. | ||
| There are lots of happy people. | ||
| But they're also... The people who are running everything look kind of grim. | ||
| Their lives are quite serious, and they're quite close to the edge. | ||
| They're a lot closer to the edge than they want to be. | ||
| And I think all of this sort of just combines to this... The kind of... | ||
| I don't think it should be this way. | ||
| I don't think it always was this way. | ||
| Because every American I met when I was young was really happy-go-lucky. | ||
| It was actually kind of adorable how kind of just innocent Americans were, right? | ||
| And it was just cheery. | ||
| And they would have the same kind of we're-in-it-together mentality that we have in England. | ||
| But now, you've got the Democrats in like half the country, or like a third of the country, and then the Republicans in the third and the other. | ||
| the exhausted independents in the middle. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| They must be exhausted with politics. | ||
| Pick a side. | ||
| Yeah, you know, but you don't blame, I can't blame them for being like, look man, I'm just | ||
| tired of this. | ||
| Because it just feels like Americans are constantly in this state of combat and I don't envy it, | ||
| Would you say that's partly because maybe we're just kind of in our adolescence with all this, where you guys are an older country and it's just a different attitude? | ||
| I think this is an excuse that Americans have been making for a long time. | ||
| Because actually, you're not that young a country. | ||
| As republics go, 250 years is pretty good, actually. | ||
| You're probably getting to the end of the life cycle of a republic. | ||
| I'm bullish on Florida. | ||
| Historically, they don't last that much longer, and you should be as well. | ||
| I'm glad I'm not trapped in a country with the Democrats, right? | ||
| Because I wouldn't want to have to deal with these people on a daily basis, and I wouldn't want them to be a facet of my local politics. | ||
| So when you see the federalist system working here, and now you're here and you're bouncing around doing Cali and Texas and Florida, Absolutely. | ||
| I think DeSantis has done a brilliant job with Florida. | ||
| I've been following DeSantis' career for about five or six years now and he's been doing great and going from strength to strength. | ||
| We can talk about the election thing in a minute. | ||
| But it's the fact that you're trapped with these serpents in your country. | ||
| It's like, oh my God, why does it have to be that way? | ||
| Why do we have to be with people who literally don't respect the legitimacy of anything that you do? | ||
| They literally hate you because of your race and your gender and your sexuality. | ||
| I mean, not you, but the average straight man. | ||
| No, they still hate me. | ||
| They still hate me. | ||
| I don't count. | ||
| No, I'm what you said before. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm the guy that walked away, so I'm double apostate, yeah. | |
| But they genuinely hate. | ||
| It's a genuine hate that animates them. | ||
| Why would you want to be trapped in a country with a bunch of people who literally hate you? | ||
| This goes back to the very nature of what it is to have a state in the first place. | ||
| Two and a half thousand years ago, he thought there couldn't be a state if it's not based on goodwill and friendship. | ||
| He thought that friendship was the basis of any political organization. | ||
| And so now, you look at it and you're like, okay, but those people are trying to destroy us. | ||
| Like, actively trying to destroy us. | ||
| They're trying to get us shut down, they're trying to make us homeless, they're trying to make us destitute on the streets like Belisarius or something. | ||
| You know, like we're just going to be on the street in Rome, blind and begging for pennies. | ||
| You know, that's where they would have you Give them the choice. | ||
| Why do my fellow countrymen think that way about me? | ||
| That's what I think the average American should be asking themselves. | ||
| Why should we have to live like this? | ||
| With people like that who don't respect that we are human beings, we're not just citizens, we are your countrymen. | ||
| There is meant to be a bond, a glowing bond between us, and you've severed that and called me a Nazi. | ||
| And you want to try and destroy me. | ||
| That can't go on. | ||
| That just can't go on forever. | ||
| And so at some point, something has to give. | ||
| And it has to be their attitude towards you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| But the damn shame of it, and before we're beating a dead horse with this, the damn shame is that everyone that talks about it from that perspective gets annihilated. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| And therein lies the rub. | ||
| So it's like, OK, you wake up and now, congratulations, they're doing it to you. | ||
| And you either give up or you end up like us, which is not too bad. | ||
| Yeah, no, we've done fine. | ||
| Yeah, it's all right. | ||
| But let's shift for a second, because actually, speaking of doing fine, you not only helped me when sort of I was waking up to this stuff and everyone was saying, you've got to talk to this Sargon of Akkad guy, and I don't even know that I knew that your name... Were you even public at that point? | ||
| Did I know that your name was Carl? | ||
| Was that even a thing? | ||
| Probably not. | ||
| You were just doing this thing, okay. | ||
| But then a couple years later, you were also instrumental in something else that happened, sort of accidentally, because you and I were two of the first political guys on Patreon. | ||
| And everyone remembers Patreon was sort of the first crowdfund monthly donation site. | ||
| And, well, I'll let you tell the story, but basically you got kicked off Patreon and it literally, what happened subsequently after that, changed the trajectory of my life. | ||
| Well, there were a bunch of white nationalists who really didn't like the fact that I wasn't a white nationalist, and they were attacking me. | ||
| And I kind of lost my cool on a podcast. | ||
| It wasn't on my channel. | ||
| It was on someone else's channel. | ||
| It wasn't on my Patreon or anything like that. | ||
| Wait, that's a really important point. | ||
| It did not occur on your Patreon, what you're about to say? | ||
| On my channel. | ||
| Or your YouTube channel that was being funded on Patreon. | ||
| So you were on someone else's channel. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| And they were attacking me. | ||
| I lost my cool, and I said things I shouldn't have said, right? | ||
| And I'm, you know, more than happy to accept that. | ||
| And looking back on it, I'm like, oh. | ||
| But you didn't say anything racist, actually. | ||
| You said a word. | ||
| I was saying it at them. | ||
| Yeah, but you were also not using it pejoratively, really. | ||
| You were using it in, like, sort of like a jokey, like... Oh, yeah, yeah. | ||
| It was meant to be humorous. | ||
| You weren't being racist in the nature of the way you were saying it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, no. | |
| And I wasn't saying it to a black person, right? | ||
| Yeah, but but in retrospect probably unwise to have said it I totally accept and I guess one of these people had sent that to patreon And patreon like oh, well, you're not allowed to have your patron anymore I was like, okay, but I didn't actually violate your terms of service because I didn't post any of that on the Platform or nor was on my channel. | ||
| In fact, the person whose channel it was on was a really small youtuber Yeah, it was tiny, and the audio wasn't great. | ||
| You'd have to really go out of your way to find it, right? | ||
| But that was it, and then there was a huge reaction to that, actually. | ||
| Sam Harris closed his Patreon, and Jordan Peterson set up ThinkSpot, and you set up Locals, and it was just a massive thing. | ||
| It was really heartening to see, as well. | ||
| There were loads of people like, no, actually, you can't just ruin people. | ||
| And you were basically making your living from that at that point, right? | ||
| So you have a family, you got four kids, the whole thing, they just take you out basically overnight. | ||
| And yeah, for me, I mean, I started, Jordan and I, we were working on the ThinkSpot thing, and then Jordan obviously got ill, but that's what led to Locals, which led obviously to a lot of other success, and Rumble, so that you're allowed to say whatever you want on this show, which is pretty sweet. | ||
| But now you see it, you referenced it earlier, now your government, as we speak, is coming after Russell Brand and for Rumble, sending out a letter to pressure them to say that a guy who just has allegations against him should not be able to make a living. | ||
| It's psychotic. | ||
| But we've been through this again, that's my point. | ||
| We've been through this before. | ||
| I mean, at least in my case, the government didn't come for me. | ||
| You know, at least in my case, it was just Jack Conte over in California who decided, oh, I'll just take this executive action. | ||
| To have a sitting MP write, using the authority of a government committee, to, it wasn't just Rumbly, there was TikTok, Twitter, and Facebook, and who knows why YouTube just, you know, I don't know that there's something left to YouTube. | ||
| Well, YouTube did it already. | ||
| I think that's why. | ||
| Or they knew YouTube was going to play ball. | ||
| Right, yeah. | ||
| But the point is, that's literally against the Magna Carta. | ||
| That's against the very spirit and principle of common law. | ||
| And it's staggering that that person hasn't resigned yet. | ||
| At the time of recording, that person hasn't resigned. | ||
| I mean, maybe they will have done by the end of this. | ||
| But it's just so beyond the pale. | ||
| And that's a member of the Conservative Party. | ||
| I don't know what the allegations against Russell Brand, whether they're true or not. | ||
| It's a moot point altogether. | ||
| Exactly, it's irrelevant. | ||
| If he's found guilty, there will be a punishment prescribed under the law. | ||
| That great, then he can be punished. | ||
| As far as I'm aware, there are no charges against him yet, which makes this all the worse. | ||
| He's alleged, it's really just a very aggressive rumour that is being spread about him. | ||
| There are no legal charges. | ||
| And I know a little something about your tabloids. | ||
| They do make things up. | ||
| Is that fair to say? | ||
| I watched The Crown. | ||
| I know what they did to Diana. | ||
| And then Martin Bashir, the guy who did it, then became a huge star on MSNBC in America. | ||
| The tabloids do have a habit of having to retract a lot of things. | ||
| The BBC as well, in fact. | ||
| So yes, it's entirely possible these are not true. | ||
| Exaggerated and misinterpreted, something like this. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Like I said, I have no idea. | ||
| But the point that you're making is exactly right. | ||
| This is mad. | ||
| This is way beyond the pale. | ||
| Even if he is convicted for all of the things I say, that still doesn't mean he should have his livelihood taken away from him. | ||
| It's so profoundly psychotic. | ||
| it would be the equivalent of a guy who sells shoes for a living, | ||
| going to a grocery store and stealing an apple and then YouTube saying to him, you can't work anymore. | ||
| And somehow the shoe store agreeing with it. | ||
| Like it really, but do you see this as like, like this is the fight more than anything? | ||
| Like the online fight now is all we've got left, right? | ||
| Otherwise everybody's gonna turn into an NPC. | ||
| It's about the legitimacy of you as a person, right? | ||
| That's what it is. | ||
| So look, do I get to have an internet access, an account on the internet? | ||
| Do I get to engage in society with everyone else? | ||
| Or should there be a particular privileged class and everyone else literally reduced to Being a basket case, you know who can't get you know, a bank account or a YouTube account or whatever a Twitter account, you know Is that a just society and the conservative will say no everyone actually is a kind of unique human being who's a part of this Tapestry that we call society and even okay if they do something wrong Then we have a law that prescribes what the punishment for that wrongdoing is and that's as far as it goes You know, we don't ruin them because of course the conservatives think well people can learn their mistakes learn from their mistakes and change | ||
| And actually, it's not right to destroy someone. | ||
| Because essentially, it's kind of like a digital death penalty that they're trying to give Russell Brand. | ||
| It's like, OK, he hasn't even been convicted. | ||
| And even if he is guilty, there are punishments for it. | ||
| But what do you think the end game for them would be? | ||
| Not for a guy like... OK, so you scare the hell... You maybe destroy Russell Brand and you go for the people that are backing him and the tech that backs it and all that, which is clearly what this is about. | ||
| You know, the day before the Russell thing went out, there was a massive hit piece about Rumble and the Guardian. | ||
| Yeah, then the piece comes out from the House of Commons. | ||
| It's just so obvious. | ||
| We've been through this before. | ||
| But what do you think the endgame is? | ||
| You can take out a Russell Brand, you can take out a Tucker Carlson, you can take out whoever you can take. | ||
| You can take out Carl, you can take out Dave. | ||
| But if you take out millions of people who can't participate in society, what do they think is going to happen to those people? | ||
| Well, maybe it's what they want to happen to those people. | ||
| They're definitely going for total control. | ||
| It's definitely about asserting a kind of Internet-wide dominance, so they are the ones who have the authority to say yes or no, which is totally alien to the sort of English-speaking experience, right? | ||
| Because we're used to there being a strong division between the state and society, and saying, no, look, society is pluralistic. | ||
| We all get to have our own little domains and gardens, and we get to grow our little things. | ||
| And if they grow, then that's great. | ||
| And if they don't, then that's our fault. | ||
| And it's up to us, right? | ||
| And so Russell Brand, again, for me, the classical liberal slash conservative, I'm not even a fan of Russell Brand. | ||
| I remember Russell Brand being on TV, and he was really annoying. | ||
| I said when we covered this the other day, I was like, I don't know that I've ever seen a movie of his. | ||
| I've interviewed him and I like him a lot, I really do now, and it's been fun seeing his evolution that we were referencing earlier. | ||
| In Britain, Russell Brown's been famous for about 25 years. | ||
| and before we had the internet, and so you had four channels on TV, | ||
| and Russell Brand would be on one of them, and he'd be really annoying, | ||
| because he was a young man who was just Russell Brand. | ||
| And so I was never a fan, right? | ||
| But the point is, that's fine. I don't need to be a fan of his. | ||
| I don't need to be a fan. | ||
| I don't need to have anything to do with him or anything that he does. | ||
| It's meant to be a free society. | ||
| He can grow his YouTube channel, his Rumble channel, his Twitter, whatever. | ||
| He should be able to go out and do and say whatever he likes. | ||
| And if I feel the need to criticize him or contradict him, I should have my domain from where I can do that as well. | ||
| And that's what a pluralistic society actually looks like. | ||
| But that, of course, is not what they're creating. | ||
| And you are right. | ||
| What's the CEO of Rumble's name? | ||
| Chris Pavlosky. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| He's a great human being. | ||
| To turn around and give the UK government just that kind of response takes genuine courage, because everyone can see there is a kind of network of power that is above the national level at this point. | ||
| I don't know what people want to call it, like the World Economic Forum or anything like that, but there is clearly some kind of international network of power that is Left-wing, and it wants to have complete managerial control of the society, down to everything that you do, from every level. | ||
| It wants that, and it's trying to get it. | ||
| And that's why, when there were competitors to Patreon that popped up, they instantly got pulled. | ||
| It's like, no, we're not having that. | ||
| And that's what they're going to try and do with Rumble. | ||
| And that's my genuine fifth. | ||
| Fortunately, Rumble's on its own wires and its own infrastructure, which makes it much more of a threat. | ||
| You know, even Twitter He's on Amazon AWS. | ||
| This is a problem. | ||
| It's a massive problem, but it goes even further than that because we've seen them debank people. | ||
| For example, Nigel Farage very recently got his bank... Wait, can you talk about that one for a little bit? | ||
| Because I only hit it on the show for a moment. | ||
| But Nigel Farage, who at one point was like basically the most influential politician in your country, Who I've had the pleasure of having many drinks with over time, and the man likes to take a gin and tonic at any time of the day. | ||
| So is he officially debanked at this point? | ||
| Well, okay, so it was a very big deal, right? | ||
| It happened a few months ago, where the bank is called Coots, I think it was called, and it's the bank that the Queen uses, right? | ||
| So you've got to have a certain level of money in there, or they claim you have to have a certain level of money in there, but that's not really true, right? | ||
| Obviously, you know, your fortune's gotten down. | ||
| But one day they turned around and said, well, actually we don't like Nigel Farage and we're going to close his bank. | ||
| And so Nigel Farage put out a piece on Twitter and said, well, they're closing my bank. | ||
| I don't know why. | ||
| And they said, oh, it's just because for the, you know, the, oh, you don't have enough money in there. | ||
| Oh, we've got excuses. | ||
| Don't worry about it. | ||
| But Nigel Farage sent in a freedom of information request to Coots. | ||
| And legally they have to give him the documents he's after. | ||
| And he gets one document as minutes of a meeting, where they literally say, Nigel Farage is like some sort of right-wing extremist, and we don't agree with his values, and so we don't want him banking with us. | ||
| And so there was enough public pressure that the Conservatives, even the Conservatives, had to be like, well, OK, it's not on for you to just take people's bank accounts away from them, because, of course, in the modern era, you need that to exist. | ||
| And so Najaf Raj actually got his bank account back. | ||
| He won this battle, right? | ||
| And that's great. | ||
| It's always nice to have the win. | ||
| But again, why are we trapped in civilizations where there are people trying to ruin us? | ||
| So would you say the answer to that simply is parallel everything? | ||
| I mean, that's basically where I'm coming to. | ||
| It's not a great answer. | ||
| It's not a great answer, especially in America, because we are multicultural in the best sense of it. | ||
| That was the purpose of the country. | ||
| And they're using it against us. | ||
| In a way. | ||
| But do you see a better alternative than that? | ||
| That we'll just, like-minded people will just have different everything. | ||
| Schools, coffee shops, internet. | ||
| I don't think that's good. | ||
| Yeah, I didn't say it's good, but I'm just asking you for a better alternative for the future. | ||
| That would be, I think, the undesirable alternative. | ||
| That we would be routed out of our own civilization and then be forced, like the productive people that we are, to rebuild from the rubble. | ||
| Well, by the way, ours will be much better in the end. | ||
| Oh yeah, absolutely. | ||
| For sure, but there'll be a lot of pain points. | ||
| Which is why they'll declare war on us. | ||
| Because they literally will. | ||
| They'll see what we're doing through virtue and look at the vice that they've been spreading and say, OK, but we need some of what you've got. | ||
| It's like, well, you're not having it. | ||
| That is one of my major fears, that if Biden wins again or the Democrats are in charge, | ||
| that there will start being a secession movement that I think most likely, even though I don't | ||
| want to give it energy, it will probably be somewhat just, right, from let's say Florida, | ||
| Texas, Tennessee, a couple other states, and they'll be fine leaving. | ||
| The other guys are never going to let that. | ||
| Cali's never going to let Florida walk without handicap. | ||
| Who knows where that goes? | ||
| I'm completely in agreement. | ||
| I don't like giving energy by talking about the idea of secession because no, no, no, no. | ||
| We have lost far too much ground to the communists. | ||
| We need to start taking some stuff back. | ||
| Why aren't we on the attack? | ||
| Everything good and just is in our favor here, right? | ||
| We are not the ones who are doing terrible things to children. | ||
| We are not the ones who are ruining the economy. | ||
| We are not the ones who are just... You can see the quality of their civilization just degrading around them. | ||
| Their planes are going to fall out of the sky because they're going to hire the wrong people and their doctors won't be qualified. | ||
| Exactly right. | ||
| That's exactly right. | ||
| The quality of their civilization is degrading. | ||
| Things are going to start failing. | ||
| How is it that we're losing to these people? | ||
| And so basically we have to essentially harden our hearts and say, just no. | ||
| You're wrong on everything. | ||
| And we're not going to accept your arguments on anything. | ||
| And people, vote for us. | ||
| Because we are right and we can prove it. | ||
| We're right on morality. | ||
| We're right on economics. | ||
| We're right on Practical matters. | ||
| We're right on just everything that we're saying, and they're wrong on everything. | ||
| In fact, they're not just wrong, they're evil. | ||
| They are actually evil, and they're trying to ruin your life. | ||
| And that's how we need to start framing it. | ||
| Sorry, look at them. | ||
| Look at them. | ||
| They're giving needles to drug addicts. | ||
| What kind of maniacs are you? | ||
| Don't even talk about what they're doing to children. | ||
| What kind of maniacs are these people? | ||
| They're stealing your money. | ||
| No, I'm not having this. | ||
| Well, soon enough they're going to literally be stealing your kids. | ||
| I don't know if you've heard what's going on in California now. | ||
| I have, but they don't think you own your own children. | ||
| If you don't affirm, if you don't affirm, I mean, it's the least affirming thing you could possibly do. | ||
| And they already do this in Canada, where it's like, literally the state can justify stealing your children. | ||
| I mean, there'll probably be a time in the future where it'll be considered wild that the state can find reasons to take your children away from you. | ||
| You know, if, when we win, you know, the bond between parent and child will be considered inviolable. | ||
| So do you see it in a weird way that in America that our federalism in a bizarre way is a weakness, too, because a million people fled Cali. | ||
| That's a million people who probably would have fought for a lot of those things, myself included, right? | ||
| Big-time campaigner to get rid of Newsom, but I'm here fortifying this place now. | ||
| So the divide because of our federalism will increase where, as you were saying, you guys kind of resurrected your own Labor Party because... We've got nowhere to go. | ||
| You've got nowhere to go. | ||
| That's an odd position for us to be in, I suppose. | ||
| That's interesting as well, because also the states give secessionism a kind of life as well. | ||
| Well, that's an option we could take. | ||
| But you don't want that option. | ||
| You don't want to break up the United States. | ||
| What you want is to defeat the left and completely rout them out of all the institutions. | ||
| And so you've got to start really thinking about how are we going to do that? | ||
| You know, we need a proper ground game. | ||
| We need to literally take printouts of look at what is happening where they are, look at what they're doing. | ||
| We are going to do the opposite of this. | ||
| And you need to start literally pulling people away from them and being like, no, they're bad people. | ||
| They are bad. | ||
| What they're doing is bad. | ||
| It is immoral. | ||
| They lie to you about their morality and they're going to ruin this country as they've ruined the states they occupy at the moment. | ||
| And so you need to actually start taking things back from those. | ||
| Not enough to just simply say, Okay, we'll just try and get away from them. | ||
| Maybe it's morally neutral. | ||
| No, they're evil and they have to be stopped. | ||
| So let's spend our last few minutes discussing the Trump-DeSantis thing, because I think you might offer some interesting insight on that. | ||
| You know my position here in the free state of Florida. | ||
| I don't have to twist or contort myself to defend DeSantis. | ||
| He happens to be more conservative than me on certain issues. | ||
| I was fine with the 15-week abortion ban we had here. | ||
| He went for six, but I can accept that he's the chief executive of the state. | ||
| I hate it. | ||
| I hate the conflict. | ||
| Guardian did, but okay, fine. | ||
| Everything else, you get all the good stuff. | ||
| I don't have to repeat it to you. | ||
| Where do you sit on all of this? | ||
| I hate it. | ||
| I hate the conflict. | ||
| I hate everything about it. Yeah, I do too. | ||
| I take no pleasure in what I'm doing when I have to criticize Trump. | ||
| It drives me crazy. | ||
| Like I said, I've supported Santos for a number of years now because he was an amazing governor. | ||
| And he still is an amazing governor. | ||
| And he's really led the way in legislating against left-wing morality. | ||
| I mean, he's really got a fantastic track record. | ||
| Of absolutely crushing them and just increasing his majority by going, no, no, no, look, we're right. | ||
| They're wrong. | ||
| I'm good. | ||
| They're bad. | ||
| And we're going to do these things. | ||
| And look, and now, I mean, what's it now, like 65% approval rating? | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| It's mad, right? | ||
| And so it's like, OK, fantastic. | ||
| But there are also kind of immutable laws of politics that, unfortunately, I think DeSantis has kind of failed to not predict, but fail to observe. | ||
| And the first one is from Robert Greene's books, The 48 Laws of Power, which is never outshine the master. | ||
| Trump is a more veteran statesman than him by virtue of being, A, the president and being older. | ||
| Now, I'm completely in agreement with all of those people who say, look, do we have to have such old people | ||
| as the presidential candidates? | ||
| I totally, totally agree. | ||
| But you are kind of in that position. | ||
| And I think that people understand the world through stories. | ||
| And part of the reason I want it to be Trump, and I think a lot of Trump supporters feel this way, because I mean, you know, whether you like it or not, he's like 50 points up in the polls, right? | ||
| So he is crushing it. | ||
| And I've got many criticisms of the way Trump conducts himself, conducts his campaign, and I think the reason none of these criticisms land Is because actually we're not in the realm of political policy making and things like that when we're talking about this. | ||
| I think what's happening to America is a genuine spiritual crisis. | ||
| I think actually Trump is the only guy who can kind of resolve that spiritual crisis because I think they screwed him in 2020. | ||
| And I think Trump needs to have his sort of return of the king moment where he comes back and it has to be Trump because they hate him more than anything and they did this to him. | ||
| And that's why it has to be Trump. | ||
| And I think his base feels that way. | ||
| I think the average middle American who's just like, you know, Trump will die, I don't care. | ||
| And I'm genuinely on this train with them. | ||
| No, it's Trump because F them. | ||
| Because F them, that's why. | ||
| You know, it's so interesting because I'm with you on so much of this and I think it's a spiritual crisis and they're in the process of screwing him in all these federal cases and all of that stuff. | ||
| My criticism has been, and I wonder, I want to know your thoughts on this because you obviously care about truth and you care about decency and everything else. | ||
| I think had he not gone so scorched earth with DeSantis, That I'd have an easier time with this right now. | ||
| Like, I just see the guy that I think is the best, that is the guy we've been waiting for, that in any other year, we'd be like, wait a minute, we have a guy who did everything we could have asked. | ||
| Sorry to interrupt, but that's it, isn't it? | ||
| In any other year, right? | ||
| That's the thing. | ||
| So no, we may not, in a weird way, we almost don't deserve him. | ||
| I can sort of accept that. | ||
| No, no, what it is, is just prudence, right? | ||
| It's like, if I were DeSantis, I would have been like, I'm going to go for it, just not yet, right? | ||
| Because Trump can only go for it this last time, really, because otherwise he'll be too old, or he'll have two presidential runs, so he can't go for a third. | ||
| So, DeSantis is a young man still. | ||
| He's about my age, actually, isn't he? | ||
| I think he's 44 or 45. | ||
| Yeah, I'm 44, yeah. | ||
| So, like, he should have been like, I'll just wait four years. | ||
| Is the inherent problem also that if Trump truly believes that the election was stolen, and clearly you believe at least to some extent that that is the case, and by the way, tens of millions of people do believe that, at least at some level, that why wouldn't they just steal it again? | ||
| Has he done anything to have them? | ||
| Why hasn't he brought that case forward? | ||
| I need him to say that. | ||
| Well, here's what I'm going to do so it doesn't happen all over again. | ||
| Did you read the Time magazine article Basically saying how we... Oh, fortified the election. | ||
| Was it Time? | ||
| Was it the Atlantic? | ||
| No, no, it was Time. | ||
|
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There were systems in place to fortify... They may as well have just said it, right? | |
| And it's like, okay, but one thing that you can take away from reading that, because I read that with great interest, ...was how much effort this was for them, right? | ||
| There was a lot of effort. | ||
| And it was because they'd just had four years of Trump, four years of, you know, Orange Hitler, destroying the entire country by making everyone wealthy and happy and prosperous and... | ||
| ending a lot of problems around the world and making sure that people respected America as a superpower again. | ||
| That was unconscionable. | ||
| You can't have any of that, right? | ||
| And so they felt deeply oppressed. | ||
| And so they were very, very motivated to do the things they did, right? | ||
| They were very motivated to do it. | ||
| I'm not sure that same energy is there this time, because they've had four years of Biden ruining everything for them. | ||
| And actually, Things were tangibly better under Trump. | ||
| Everyone had more money. | ||
| Things were going better. | ||
| People felt less... But you don't think the elite class is still feeling pretty good right now? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| The elite... Well, I don't know. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Or whoever's pulling the strings there. | ||
|
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Well, that's the thing. | |
| Like, do they seem like they're happy? | ||
| They seem afraid to me, actually. | ||
| Usually, with any kind of elite class, a cruel exercise of power is a sign of weakness rather than strength, because you've got the power, but you really shouldn't be using it. | ||
| You should be able to persuade those people underneath you to do the things that you think should be done, because that shows you've got moral legitimacy. | ||
| If you've got to literally start crushing people, like they are now, then it shows that actually they're afraid, and they think they're wiping out threats. | ||
| But whenever you do that, Anything that was connected to what you just whacked is like, oh, well, that wasn't good. | ||
| And, you know, you keep doing that. | ||
| You create a larger, large body of people who are just... | ||
| OK, you guys seem mad, and we're afraid of you now, right? | ||
| And so it's just bad blood. | ||
| It's bad vibes. | ||
| It's negativity. | ||
| And so I'm not convinced the Democratic elite class actually feels good about the position that they're in. | ||
| I mean, they must know. | ||
| I mean, almost all Democrats know that Biden's a terrible, terrible candidate. | ||
| He's a terrible president. | ||
| And what, are we really going to go through all this effort again to get that guy back? | ||
| Do we want that guy, actually? | ||
| You know, are we so wedded? | ||
| Well, maybe it won't be that guy. | ||
| That's a whole other topic. | ||
| Maybe, but either way, it's the same agenda as well, right? | ||
| And so I just, I wonder how much of the sort of, the pressure that, because I mean, we haven't heard about Trump for four years. | ||
| People forget it was non-stop, wall-to-wall media coverage of how Nazi, you know, Cheeto Hitler is doing this terrible thing, he's tweeted this terrible thing today, right? | ||
| Meanwhile, all-time low black unemployment. | ||
| All-time low Hispanic unemployment. | ||
| In reality, everything was actually going great for everyone. | ||
| There was light at the end of the tunnel for everyone. | ||
| Things were genuinely going well. | ||
| And now, I don't think anyone can say there's light at the end of the tunnel. | ||
| I mean, look at the price of everything. | ||
| Look how difficult everything seems to be. | ||
| Look how much pressure everyone seems to be under. | ||
| Really, you've got the energy to Make sure that the guy who made everything great is not coming back. | ||
| I mean, I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm not saying it won't happen, right? | ||
| You know, I definitely think it happened in 2020. | ||
| But it was just very obvious from the Time Magazine article that this took a lot of work, and you had to have the people willing to do the work, you know, to spend all the energy. | ||
| I mean, they got paid, but it's still like you've got... it's a lot of... | ||
| Morale that you have to have to do this, right? | ||
| I'm not sure that's there this time and Maybe it is maybe I'm wrong. | ||
| Maybe it'll be maybe I'll eat these words sort of thing But I'm not sure they've got the energy for another fortification and honestly, I just really think it has to be Trump I just I really want it to be Trump that finally crushes them And then DeSantis would be the perfect man to step in and go. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Okay, we've routed them We've got the winning formula right because everyone I mean, there are so many complaints about Trump's first term, right? | ||
| And even Trump, when he was on Tucker Carlson, he was like, well, I was kind of naive about this. | ||
| You know, I didn't realise all of the establishment would be against it. | ||
| All the institutions would essentially lock arms and keep me out, you know? | ||
| And maybe Trump in the next administration will legislate a lot harder against his political opponents. | ||
| And in fact, after the mugshot, maybe he definitely will. | ||
| But DeSantis would be a brilliant guy to come in after that and go, look, we know what works. | ||
| We know how we're going to win. | ||
| I've got a blueprint of it. | ||
| Trump's just done whatever he's just done. | ||
| We know that we're righteous, and we're decent, and we're creating a better world in what we do. | ||
| And there would be no conflict whatsoever. | ||
| Because Trump could then just go, as the outgoing president, DeSantis is our boy. | ||
| He's on. | ||
| Let's carry on the MAGRA agenda. | ||
| Let's carry on making this country great. | ||
| Let's make the world great. | ||
| We've got this. | ||
| But instead, What you just said, which I actually agree with almost all of it, is a more compelling case than I think Trump has made for himself. | ||
| You're far more eloquent in the decent explanation of why it works, where he's doing still the name-calling and the games, and it's like, I don't want to be part of that anymore. | ||
| I know. | ||
| That's what I'm saying. | ||
| You just made a case that is completely decent and also proves that I have not lost all of my classical liberal beliefs because even though I'm still a DeSantis guy, I let you say it right here on my show. | ||
| Could there be anything more truly liberal than that? | ||
| And that's the thing. | ||
| I'm a DeSantis guy. | ||
| I've been praising on the podcast. | ||
| Every day we do the podcast and then every day DeSantis will have done something else great. | ||
| And we're just like brilliant. | ||
| DeSantis has just legislated against this, what they wanted. | ||
| They've taken an L. Brilliant. | ||
| And again, and again, and again. | ||
| He shouldn't have been challenging the master. | ||
| That's the problem. | ||
| There is a hierarchy of these things. | ||
| Trump was the president. | ||
| He's the guy that the story's about at the moment. | ||
| And then Trump needs to come to the natural conclusion of his hero's journey, defeat the villain, and then ride off into the sunset. | ||
| Go back to Florida and go to dinner parties and do whatever he wants. | ||
| Instead, he's sniping at DeSantis, and I agree. | ||
| He's not covering himself in glory in this. | ||
| But DeSantis is not doing great in the polls compared to Trump, because I think everyone feels this in this sort of genuine conservative way. | ||
| It's like, hang on a second. | ||
| It's just not your time yet. | ||
| So I think whoever advised DeSantis to go for it now, I just think that was a miscalculation. | ||
| You're a young man. | ||
| You're a young man. | ||
| Keep making Florida amazing. | ||
| Get yourself another five points up in the approval rating in Florida, which I don't doubt that he can do. | ||
|
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Yeah. | |
| And if it's only four years, you're a young man, you've got the time, then you can do it. | ||
| And then everyone would be behind DeSantis. | ||
| As I have said many times, if this all ends with Trump as my president and DeSantis as my governor, I will be just fine with that. | ||
| Well, yeah, that's hardly a loss, is it? | ||
| I will be just fine with that. | ||
| Carl, it was a pleasure seeing you again. | ||
| I'm glad things are going so well. | ||
| And I hope you make it through America without getting too depressed, because... Well, I'm having a great time. | ||
| Well, you know, you're in Florida, so... Yeah, well, yeah, I'm in Florida, so I'm having a great time. | ||
| But no, I mean, everyone is just so nice. | ||
| And I get to see loads of people who I know from the Internet in real life, and they're all lovely, and it's great to be here. | ||
| The Internet in real life. | ||
| How about it? | ||
| Good seeing you, man. | ||
| If you're looking for more honest and thoughtful conversations about politics instead of nonstop screaming, check out our politics playlist. | ||
|
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And if you want to watch full interviews on a variety of topics, watch our full episode playlist, all right over here. |
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