Aug. 24, 2023 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
54:07
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
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unidentified
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You You | |
| We're live? | ||
| We're live? | ||
| We're live! | ||
| Yeah? | ||
| Yeah! | ||
| Alright! | ||
| It's a big night in America, people. | ||
| The first GOP debate from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. | ||
| I'm Dave Rubin, fresh from my Mexican vacation, off the grid. | ||
| I returned. | ||
| I brought Michael Malice with me. | ||
| He's beside me. | ||
| Glenn Greenwald and Jordan Peterson are going to join us in a few minutes. | ||
| The debate just ended. | ||
| They're still inside. | ||
| We came out a little bit early. | ||
| And you know it's a serious night, Michael Malice, because I'm wearing a tie. | ||
| No, I caught that. | ||
| I was very impressed. | ||
| No lapel pin, though. | ||
| Well, someone stole my brooch. | ||
| It's a big night for, I guess, the Republicans in America and the pundits and the chattering classes and everybody else. | ||
| So let's just kind of just dive right into it. | ||
| Did you see any major winner first? | ||
| I want to give you the first opening salvo before I chime in with any thoughts. | ||
| How should I introduce you? | ||
| For the people that may not know you. | ||
| For the two people watching that may not know you. | ||
| The Pride of America. | ||
| Michael Malice. | ||
| The Pride of America. | ||
| I think the big winner tonight was the Democratic establishment. | ||
| Because if I was the Democratic establishment and watched this kind of clown car, I would feel very confident about my chances going into 2024, even with a Weekend at Bernie situation with the corpse of a candidate. | ||
| I thought it was a very bad job by the moderators. | ||
| I thought they did a terrible job of holding everyone in place. | ||
| People take as much space as you give them, right? | ||
| You and I both do this. | ||
| I haven't seen debate moderation that week since you had Candace and Blair on your show. | ||
|
unidentified
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Ow! | |
| Wow! | ||
| That is an old school reference. | ||
| It's true, but the point is... | ||
| I don't blame Vivek for talking over everyone. | ||
| I don't blame Mike Pence for talking over everyone. | ||
| You're there. | ||
| You want as much camera time as possible. | ||
| It's their job to wrangle these people. | ||
| They all signed agreements and they were not held to them. | ||
| Well, it's interesting about the agreements because I've seen this repeatedly. | ||
| I was at the Florida gubernatorial debate, the one debate they did between DeSantis and Chris Christie. | ||
| Charlie, Chris, Jesus, they all start melting together when you're off the grid. | ||
| It's one horrible human being. | ||
| Yes, it is. | ||
| And they had signed an agreement right before saying that each candidate would not directly question another. | ||
| So Christy, Chris goes up there and starts asking DeSantis all these questions, and DeSantis refuses to answer. | ||
| If you're watching at home and you didn't know that they agreed to something, you'd be like, DeSantis got real stiff, seemed like a robot. | ||
| But if you heard what the moderator said, you know, before the TV cameras are on, | ||
| you see a different version of it. | ||
| That's why it was nice to be inside, I thought, where I could see a little bit of the | ||
| the stuff that you don't quite get to see on TV. | ||
| My main takeaway was that there was definitely no clear winner here. | ||
| No, not at all. | ||
| I say that. | ||
| Everyone knows my feelings about DeSantis, obviously. | ||
| I think he did a nice job. | ||
| There was no, he didn't take any major hit, but he didn't score any major win. | ||
| And I think that's what people are looking for at the moment from him. | ||
| And I don't think that was there. | ||
| He felt like wallpaper. | ||
| He seemed like he was an also ran at one point when he was going back with the fake, he actually looked scared and startled. | ||
| I thought it was a very poor night for him because this was his moment to be like, you guys are talk. | ||
| I'm the one who delivers results. | ||
| Look at Florida. | ||
| We are the model. | ||
| He could have turned to Mike Pence and said, there's a reason people have Florida as the model and not Indiana. | ||
| When you were governor, no one was saying, let's move to Indiana. | ||
| He didn't take any of these opportunities. | ||
| And I thought one of the weakest moments he had was when they're asking about January 6th, which is pertinent because tomorrow president Trump is going to be arrested, indicted, excuse me, arrested as a result of this. | ||
| And he's like, well, I'm not worried about January 6th. | ||
| I'm worried about January 20th, 2025, which is such a canned line. | ||
| It's like, this isn't just some historical oddity. | ||
| This is currently the news right now with the frontrunner. | ||
| So I know he came prepared, but I thought he was very poorly prepared. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So, all right. | ||
| So I, by no stretch did I think he crushed it. | ||
| I think it was sort of just like a net nothing for him, which is, I think he needed more than that. | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| That's my point. | ||
| So I'm with you on that. | ||
| Let's talk about Vivek a little bit because Vivek right out of the gate came out guns blazing. | ||
| I'm the different guy He's very animated. | ||
| He looks different. | ||
| He's younger. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| He's more, you know, his arms are longer There's a lot of facial reactions and little little things from what I could tell in there the crowd kind of liked it at the beginning But was very tired about it at the end I thought the one line that really hurt him actually was when he said this thing you're everyone on this stage except for me is bought and sold I think that was roughly the quote and everyone in the audience and Everyone booed him, even people that were applauding him before. | ||
| Like this idea that yes, you are just the non-candidate candidate. | ||
| Everyone else has canned lines. | ||
| Your canned line of saying that they have canned lines is not a canned line. | ||
| I thought there was something that it struck me as he lost momentum as it kind of went on. | ||
| Although he had some night, him and Pence really were like, they ain't going to dinner tonight. | ||
| I thought it was a good night for him in the sense that a lot of people aren't political animals like us. | ||
| They don't know who this guy is. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah. | |
| So he did score a lot of points in terms of- Right, people suddenly are like, Okay, who's this guy? | ||
| He's saying what I want it to be saying. | ||
| At the same time, like you said, I feel like he came off in some ways like a Wish.com Donald Trump, where it's just like, yeah, we know the schtick that you're doing. | ||
| But he's very smart, because as you and I discussed earlier on your show, what happens if Trump is forced out of the race? | ||
| Where do those 40% of MAGA voters ride or die with Trump? | ||
| Where are they going to go? | ||
| Clearly making a bid for them, and I think he did a very good bid for them. | ||
| And I thought it was very funny, because I thought his strongest moment was when he really rattled your girl Nikki Haley. | ||
| Because she was clutching her pearls and wagging her finger, and she seemed more like she was running for President of the PTA than President of the United States. | ||
| It was like he really got under her skin and I thought that was hilarious. | ||
| All right, so let's talk about Nikki Haley. | ||
| I said to you earlier this morning, she strikes me as the dark horse because she to me would come across exactly as she came across tonight, which was she's a functional adult. | ||
| You may disagree with her on some things and agree with her on some things, but she's got, I think, a fairly good track record as governor and as U.S. | ||
| ambassador to the U.N., and I thought she kind of did just that tonight. | ||
| Again, whether you agree or disagree, I know you fully disagree with her on Ukraine, for example. | ||
| I agree with your assessment of her role. | ||
| The point is 2024 is going to be a year about imprisoning political opponents, trans kids, how much money we spend in Ukraine. | ||
| Responsibility is not what the Republican electorate wants. | ||
| This would have made a lot of sense in 2012. | ||
| If you had her versus Romney, everyone's going for her because she's got all of Romney's benefits and none of his faults. | ||
| But in terms of where the Republican Party in America is today, just after what happened with COVID and the madness there, I think that she's really out of her time. | ||
| So, all right, we'll keep just going through everybody. | ||
| Let's talk about Doug. | ||
| You want to do Doug before Ben? | ||
| Because I really felt like he was either Sacha Baron Cohen or like someone who won a sweepstakes. | ||
| Oh, and by the way, let's hear from Doug. | ||
|
unidentified
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He's like, I'm here and I like educate... I thought he was actually... I did not know who this man was. | |
| And now we hear from literally who? | ||
| No, so they bring him out, and I don't know if they showed this part on TV. | ||
| I don't know if you saw everybody walk out. | ||
| But, you know, he's got a limp because something happened to either his leg or his back while playing basketball yesterday, and I respect the basketball injury. | ||
| I thought his answers were actually pretty solid, and he's obviously, like, kind of a, I would say, like, decent conservative. | ||
| But this thing ain't happening, right? | ||
| Like, this is it. | ||
| He's won and done. | ||
| Here's when the mask dropped. | ||
| When you start talking about how great teachers are and how they're underpaid in this country, the teachers union, I think Republican voters understand, is one of the biggest—in my opinion, they're a bigger threat to America than China is, by far, what they're doing to the kids and the sanctimoniousness and the absolute depravity coming out of some of these schools. | ||
| So for them to be like, you know, we need to support more teachers— Get the hell out of here. | ||
| That line was ironic, because they handed him the easiest gift ever. | ||
| Exactly! | ||
| They handed him the gift of, oh, you've done it right. | ||
| You've banned the trans stuff in North Dakota. | ||
| And then he's kind of made it like, oh, but it's not really happening. | ||
| And also, oh, we need to teach computer science. | ||
| I promise you, these kids know how to use a phone better than any of us. | ||
| Right. | ||
| OK, so let's, I think we're kind of done with him. | ||
| So let's go to the other guy we're done with, Asa Hutchinson. | ||
| It's just, it's just nothing. | ||
| It's just. | ||
| Cesar Romero without the makeup. | ||
| Did he have like a bad face? | ||
| Like that jawline and the beady eyes? | ||
| I think they're too young for that reference. | ||
| They get it, they get it. | ||
| He was very disturbing to look at with that comb over. | ||
| It's just like alternate universe Biden. | ||
| Like do we need another like gravelly corpse? | ||
| And he doesn't have a lane. | ||
| Because Trump sucks is Chris Christie's lane. | ||
| And Chris Christie did that lane far better. | ||
| He took up three lanes than Asa Hutchinson. | ||
| So I think Christie actually had a pretty decent match. | ||
| We predicted this. | ||
| We predicted earlier today on your show, people don't sleep on Chris Christie. | ||
| I thought it was really funny when Martha McCallum was this close to asking him if he was a flying saucer. | ||
| I thought that's where she was going with that question. | ||
| He was aggressive, but then he has a way of being aggressive and then he can suddenly back off and then seems kind of human. | ||
| I think his Jersey attitude actually kind of played well. | ||
| I think he's not afraid to fight, clearly. | ||
| I thought he had a pretty decent night. | ||
| Let them boo and didn't try to fight the crowd. | ||
| He got his points out. | ||
| It was a good line on the booing. | ||
| You're welcome to boo here. | ||
| Clearly and succinctly. | ||
| He had his lines that were rehearsed, but like a good stand-up comedian, which you know very well, he didn't sound rehearsed. | ||
| He sounded like, off the top of his head, he had these good, solid lines. | ||
| I thought it was a great night for him. | ||
| And I wasn't surprised it was a great night for him, even though I don't like the man at all. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Okay, interesting. | ||
| Alright, and then Pence. | ||
| Is that it? | ||
| And we get to everybody but Pence. | ||
| Oh no, Pence and Tim Scott. | ||
| There was something interesting going on with Pence tonight, which is that a lot of it seemed to revolve around him. | ||
| A disproportionate amount relative to polls and everything. | ||
| I think that kind of bodes well for him. | ||
| He just kind of, again, I don't know where that real support is. | ||
| I think he's kind of muddled on some stuff. | ||
| There was something there tonight. | ||
| You can't deny that, I don't think. | ||
| Sure, but I don't think it was as good as him versus Kamala Harris, where I think he just wiped the floor with her. | ||
| I don't see what support he picks up. | ||
| I think he did good in terms of his reputation, in terms of the Republican Party going forward. | ||
| Instead of being a pariah, maybe he'll get his Fox News slot or something like that. | ||
| But I don't think that this is going to do much in terms of getting him traction in terms of the primaries and the caucuses going forward. | ||
| I don't see who is going to go— I hate Trump or I'm not a Trump person. | ||
| I'm going with Christie over Mike Pence. | ||
| It seems like an obvious choice. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And Tim Scott. | ||
| Oh God. | ||
| You know, that sort of whisper, half-whisper, sort of preacher, not preacher. | ||
| Again, I've interviewed him. | ||
| I think he is a decent man. | ||
| I only tweeted once during the entire debate about the debate itself, and I said, you know, whether you agree with these guys or not, whether you like them or not, these people, they seemingly do like America. | ||
| Now, they may not love it the exact way that we would want them to or something like that, That's very different than, I think, if you put eight Democrats on stage now, where they fundamentally don't think. | ||
| Tim Scott was Marco Rubio dipped in chocolate. | ||
| He was a complete robot. | ||
| There was nothing charismatic about anything. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| Connor just blushed. | ||
| Am I wrong? | ||
| He's got natural color in his face. | ||
| Am I wrong, though? | ||
| There's nothing charismatic about him at all. | ||
| There's nothing interesting about him at all. | ||
| He's the diversity hire for the Republican Party, I think. | ||
| And he has no good public speaking either, or a resume to speak of. | ||
| I think it's just embarrassing that he's kind of up there, and I don't see any future for him, other than maybe in some cabinet for some non-Trump Republican president down the road. | ||
| How much do you think these things move? | ||
| Do you think they really moved people? | ||
|
unidentified
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That's always the question. | |
| We can analyze them to death and there's a fine quotient about it. | ||
| You know who they moved? | ||
| They moved the donors. | ||
| Because if I'm investing money in a candidate, I want this guy to be bought and paid for, I gotta make sure he can go on stage and fight for me and get some noise and get unearned media and things like that. | ||
| Alright, so real quick, just go through everybody again. | ||
| So DeSantis, we're kind of both agreeing it was a push. | ||
|
unidentified
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It wasn't a win, it wasn't a lose, but you think that's Come on, this was his chance to be like, I was the alternative to Trump, and here's why. | |
| For months, I was the alternative to Trump. | ||
| Here's my record. | ||
| He sounds like a scared kid. | ||
| Oh, it's Glenn Greenwald! | ||
| Oh my god, we've got Glenn Greenwald! | ||
| The internet is gonna crash! | ||
| Holy cow, Glenn, how are you? | ||
| Nice to see you again. | ||
| I was actually kind of out of the corner of my eye trying to read what you were writing on Twitter. | ||
| It's true, I have a poker face, though. | ||
| Oh, we need to share the mic. | ||
| Yeah, okay. | ||
| So Glenn being on here, guys let us know if the mics are okay. | ||
| We've only got two mics. | ||
| So first off, we have never done a show together in all of these years. | ||
| It's true. | ||
| Glenn and I used to be mortal Twitter enemies. | ||
| We traded a lot of enemies over various different platforms and then we started speaking more amicably and now here we are together live in person. | ||
| And the funny thing is, I think you still roughly consider yourself a man of the left in a certain sense. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah, I mean, I think these labels have changed a lot, right? | |
| They've gone through a lot of transformation. | ||
| I think a lot of our big debates aren't even really susceptible to that. | ||
| Like, Big Tech collaborating with the United States government to control the internet. | ||
| Is that a left or is that a right issue? | ||
| Yeah, imperialism, the war in Ukraine, I think some of these things just evade these labels, so I think they've become less and less important, but I don't think I've changed my worldview or core ideology in any way. | ||
| I think a lot has changed around me, like it has for you. | ||
| it because regardless of whether the labels mean anything or not at this point, it's kind | ||
| of funny that guys like you and I, who let's say five years ago would have been sitting | ||
| in debates with very different crowd, were sitting, you were literally sitting behind | ||
| Marjorie Taylor Greene, we were sitting next to Junior and Kimberly and Matt Gaetz, and | ||
| it's like, this is a really odd sphere of people. | ||
| I even said to you, I said, go back to 2016 and tell the Dave Rubin of 2016, take a picture | ||
| of where you are and show you, and I think even you would not believe that. | ||
| I certainly would not. | ||
| So I'll just recap real quick what our basic assessment was. | ||
| You can clean up some of this for me. | ||
| We sort of thought it was just like a push for DeSantis, and he thinks a push is sort of a loss, and that there were no major wins there, but no major losses. | ||
| Do you think that's sort of fair? | ||
| Yeah, I mean when you're behind by 30 to 40 points and your campaign is struggling, not collapsing but struggling by all metrics, you need something to change course and I don't think there was a moment where he did that. | ||
| Probably it's the first time people are seeing him in this setting so maybe he was obviously competent, there was no failures. | ||
| Open up some people's minds. | ||
| By far the thing that impressed me the most, and by impressed I just mean the thing that I thought was the biggest takeaway, was how much attention was paid to Vivek. | ||
| He got the entire debate to center on him in a way that I think was pretty remarkable given that he's the only one out there not a known political commodity. | ||
| Yeah, did you feel like some of the gimmick portion of it kind of worked at the beginning and then sort of ran lost steam? | ||
| Like, at the beginning it came out he's very animated, he's young, you know, it's like his arms are flying all over the place, he looks different, and it was kind of working. | ||
| I think the one line that really hit him though, I just said this to Michael, this thing about you're all bought and sold and I'm not, like, that does feel a little, like, come on, man. | ||
| I think the problem is, is that even for the candidates up there who aren't doing well, Unfortunately. | ||
| There should be much more. | ||
| likely to do well. | ||
| There's still people who are reasonably liked by Republican voters, Tim Scott, Nikki Haley. | ||
| I don't think there's a lot of contempt for these people among Republican voters. | ||
| And so does, yeah, there should be more, but there's not. | ||
| So I think when you say like every single one of the, like Trump used to say that, but | ||
| we directed it like Jeff Bush or Marco Rubio. | ||
| To say that just about everybody I think comes off like as kind of arrogant, is very dismissive. | ||
| At the same time, you know, Trump changed a lot of the rules of how these things work. | ||
| Like that's something that you couldn't say eight years ago. | ||
| I wonder whether that is as offensive as we think it might be to people. | ||
| But did he change the rules? | ||
| Did he change the rules for him, right? | ||
| Is this something where someone else can adopt the mantle or Trump can pull it off because it's clearly authentic? | ||
| Right, because by the end of it, I was sort of feeling, ah, you don't have that Trump thing. | ||
| Like, you can do it at moments, but Trump seems like he can just do it over decades. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I feel like, I mean, for me, you know, this sort of punditry is always speculative, right? | ||
| It's one of the reasons. | ||
| But here we are at a debate, and this is what you do is punditry at the end. | ||
| You know, I feel like Yes. | ||
| Vivek is positioning himself as at least someone that Trump would have to consider for a vice | ||
| presidential candidate. | ||
| And so from that perspective, I think he's showing enough facility with the sort of Trump | ||
| approach to things. | ||
| And the most the most clarifying moment was the war in Ukraine, where he was really the | ||
| only one adamantly saying this is not a war. | ||
| We should be fighting using the Trump populism of 2016. | ||
| Why are we spending money on foreign wars when we can't even protect our own border? | ||
| That's something I think is going to resonate with those kind of voters and I think he was pretty authentic about it. | ||
| I mean, I've interviewed him on that. | ||
| That is clearly his position. | ||
| How do you gauge, so I think the three of us are pretty, you know, I don't fully consider myself in isolation, but the three of us are pretty, yeah, we'll get to that in a sec, but on the Vivek stuff with the war, like, I think the three of us are pretty anti-war, certainly, right? | ||
| So, do you think that most Americans are, though? | ||
| Because, you know, Pence got a lot of applause on Ukraine stuff. | ||
| Nikki got some applause on Ukraine stuff. | ||
| From Republican voters, though, not just random people. | ||
| But this is a Republican primary. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| This is a Republican primary. | ||
| How do you gauge how foreign policy matters to people? | ||
| Well, there was this new poll, right, which is ultimately the most effective way I think Michael's right. | ||
| I mean, one of the things I noticed is my first Republican debate is, you know, the seats in the middle are all Republican, RNC donors. | ||
| You know, Trump pointed that out in 2016 when he was getting booed for criticizing Jeb. | ||
| Those are his donors right there. | ||
| These are all their lobbyists and donors, which is actually exactly how it happens. | ||
| This is not representative of public opinion. | ||
| Probably makes a difference on TV because you don't really realize that. | ||
| At the same time, Polling data, there was a new CNN poll showing that the majority of Americans now oppose sending more money to Ukraine. | ||
| And the only reason it was even as close as it was, 55-45, is because 75% of self-identified liberal Democrats support sending that money to Ukraine. | ||
| So the Republican Party public opinion is aggressively eroding on these questions. | ||
| And I just don't think there's an appetite at all for sending more money to Ukraine. | ||
| So what do you think Pence's angle on this is? | ||
| And then we'll get to Christy. | ||
| When Pence is like, but we have to arm them because if we don't arm them, they're on their way to Belarus. | ||
| I'm shocked that Pence basically invoked domino policy, which was the reason we were in Vietnam. | ||
| Because the argument is, if we don't stop them in Vietnam, then they're going to Laos, then they're going to Cambodia, they're coming to Washington, they're coming to Oklahoma. | ||
| And that literally, I forget who was who said that, if we don't stop them in Ukraine, we're next. | ||
| Crazy! | ||
|
unidentified
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And that's completely fallacious. | |
| Yeah, I think was that Nikki? | ||
| I think that might have been Nikki. | ||
| Nikki or Chris Christie, you know. | ||
| It was just like, guys, it doesn't go Russia, Ukraine, United States. | ||
| Or even Russia, Ukraine, Paris, right? | ||
| You gotta get through a couple of them. | ||
| If the point they're trying to make, trying to steelman their argument, they're like, okay, after Ukraine it gets to NATO. | ||
| Well, that's just an argument. | ||
| Maybe we shouldn't be in NATO. | ||
| Well, we're in NATO, so we're going to have to send boots on the ground to Germany. | ||
| Right, which would be a Trump argument, by the way. | ||
| So we both agreed that Christie actually had a pretty good night, that he pushed himself in. | ||
| He's a big presence, literally and figuratively. | ||
| He was kind of funny at moments. | ||
| He's aggressive and then oddly kind of pleasant. | ||
| What do you make of him? | ||
| I mean, I think that what the polling is showing is that the Republican Party adores Donald Trump. | ||
| There's no getting around that, right? | ||
| Not all of them, obviously. | ||
| The biggest chunk of Republican Party voters still really, really like Donald Trump. | ||
| And if you're perceiving yourself as the anti-Trump candidate, which Chris Christie clearly is, going on ABC and CNN for no reason other than to bash Trump and saying he's below the dignity of the, you know, that is something that I think is just going to turn Republican voters. | ||
| I mean, DeSantis, you notice, is very careful. | ||
| You know, never to really say, even that Trump's guilty, his focus, every time he's asked on the corruption and weaponization of the Biden Justice Department, he doesn't want to alienate Trump voters because I think he knows that he can't get the nomination if he does, whereas Chris Christie is there just to bash Trump for whatever motives Chris Christie has in doing that. | ||
| Yeah, but here's the thing. | ||
| I think the MAGA voters are very, very suspicious of anyone who's in any way playing both sides of the fence about Trump. | ||
| So when DeSantis is playing coy, they don't trust him for one New York minute. | ||
| So I think that plays very poorly against him. | ||
| He's trying to play it safe, but you can't play it safe when the base wants blood. | ||
| And the base does seem to want him blood, so let's talk about Trump a little bit. | ||
| I mean, he wasn't here today. | ||
| What do you think about him not being here? | ||
| Again, I didn't know he wasn't going to be here until Malice told me a couple hours ago. | ||
| And frankly, it's like it's hard to make of what we just watched because the main guy wasn't there, as they pointed out. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, it was a debate in a parallel universe where Donald Trump's not running, right? | ||
| Look, I'm somebody who, as a journalist, is somebody who thinks people running for president have a responsibility to respect, you know, the voters. | ||
| I think he should be here. | ||
| I think if you're going to run for president, you should participate in the debates. | ||
| That said, it just is a long-standing rule of American politics that if you have a gigantic lead, you don't elevate the stature of your opponents trailing far behind by debating them. | ||
| It's a strategic calculation. | ||
| It's a political calculation. | ||
| Therefore, it's not one that I love. | ||
| I wish he were here, but I kind of get why he's not. | ||
| And it's also a legal calculation, because if he's on stage being asked questions about all his indictments, which he would certainly have to be asked, he's in a position where if he's saying things publicly that screw up his legal cases, this could have criminal ramifications. | ||
| Any lawyer will tell you, when you're involved in a legal case, you do not discuss it publicly and let your lawyers do it. | ||
| You are not a fan of the weaponization of government, to say the least. | ||
| It looks like Trump is, so he's going to be indicted, well I guess he's been indicted and now he will be arrested tomorrow. | ||
| Do you put this at the top right now of all of the important issues? | ||
| I think it's unbelievable that every time a country we regard as an adversary country, sometimes even ones we regard as allies, start indicting and criminalizing political opponents, | ||
| we instantly see that as a hallmark of tyranny. | ||
| You know, one of the main issues that I had when I first started writing about politics | ||
| in the early war on terror, was I thought that a lot of Bush Cheney officials | ||
| and even CIA officials ought to have been prosecuted for war on terror crimes, for torture, for rendition, | ||
| for illegal eavesdropping with no warrants. | ||
| And the consensus in the political media class was, we don't do that, that's what banana republics do. | ||
| I wrote a book saying, actually, banana republics, there's a two-tiered system of law | ||
| where elites are exempt and don't get prosecuted. | ||
| The problem is, I'd be cheering if we were really abandoning this two-tiered system | ||
| of justice where political leaders are exempt. | ||
| Of course, though, we're not. | ||
| It's a one-time only exemption for Trump. | ||
| It's totally politically motivated. | ||
| I'd be cheering prosecution of Trump if he had committed classic crimes like murder or extortion or bribery or, you know, kidnapping or just the kind of classic corruption that politicians should go to jail for. | ||
| None of that Do you think even if he did do some things that were illegal or with classified arguments or talking about them, like if there are some things let's say on the margins that he did that are illegal, would you still make the argument? | ||
| Because I kind of would, that you still have to let him off because otherwise we end up in Banana Republic regardless. | ||
| Here's the main issue for me. | ||
| So if you ask me, just from a lawyer perspective, which of the four cases are the strongest, I would easily say the Mar-a-Lago case with the classified documents, just because that doesn't actually require this dubious interpretation of the law. | ||
| But the thing is, Every single day, I mean literally every day, if you pick up the New York Times or the Washington Post, you will read people leaking classified documents. | ||
| Every day, every day. | ||
| That is the game they play every single day. | ||
| So you turn on the TV and you see these people, these panels, expressing indignation that he was careless. | ||
| These people are playing games with classified information, way more sensitive than the ones he's accused, by the way, not of leaking, but of improperly maintaining. | ||
| And when you add on to that the fact that everyone agrees, as president, he had the unilateral and unreviewable power to declassify them, ultimately the whole case comes down to, and again this is the strongest one, Nothing more than just kind of like a bureaucratic oversight that like he kind of forgot or failed to declassify those documents prior to taking them. | ||
| If that's the thing on which we're staking the prosecution of the leading oppositional figure in the United States, I don't really care whether he did it or not. | ||
| That is way beyond what is a tolerable use of the police power. | ||
| Yeah, I accept that argument. | ||
| I think I'm more of a leftist than Glenn. | ||
| I believe in fairness. | ||
| I believe in equality. | ||
| I am for the arrest of all current living presidents and vice presidents. | ||
| And I think we should exhume a bunch of them, Lincoln too, and put him on trial. | ||
| We'll give him habeas corpus. | ||
| We'll have the actual corpse. | ||
| We know where it is. | ||
| Well, that's the Noam Chomsky argument, the famous one, that if we ever even applied just the Nuremberg principles, let alone American domestic law, every American president in the post-World War II era would be prosecuted and hung at the Hague. | ||
| Well, we can't say that maybe on Rumble, but yeah. | ||
| No, on Rumble you can say whatever you want. | ||
| Exactly, that's why we love Rumble. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What are you talking about? | |
| You can't say that in there. | ||
| Hold on, I'm a moderate, so I can agree to compromise regarding where it is. | ||
| So it doesn't have to be a Hague. | ||
| Every time he says something controversial, suddenly he becomes a moderate. | ||
| I thought he was more of a leftist than I am, and then ten seconds later he was a moderate. | ||
| It's very confusing, Miles. | ||
| Do you have anything to say about some of the lesser-known people, say the Asa Hutchinsons or Doug with the bad back? | ||
| Doug, he won the Snoop Shanks. | ||
| I mean, we were talking about this, like, we do politics for a living, right? | ||
| Like, we pay attention to politics for a living. | ||
| Honestly, I still can't, I don't know his last name. | ||
| I'm happy, you know, I'm sure being a governor of North Dakota is a perfectly fine thing to be. | ||
| I think I'm officially in the IDW now. | ||
| Talking about improbable panels. | ||
| This is the most improbable panel of all time. | ||
| Uh oh, here comes JBP. | ||
| We got Jordan Peterson. | ||
| This is about to get real. | ||
| I think I'm officially in the IDW now. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh yes. | |
| Here we go. | ||
| Alright, Jordan Peterson. | ||
| Talking about improbable panels. | ||
| Yeah, this is the most improbable panel of all time. | ||
| Jordan, you can even, you can take your thing off your... | ||
| Oh, I can take my thing off? | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| I can't... | ||
| of all people. You walk in there, you were the biggest star in the whole room. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm really impressed that they had that suit at Macy's for you. What a lucky coincidence. | |
| The only one who got more attention than Vivek tonight was Jordan. | ||
| JP, what did you make of what you... | ||
| First off, what are you doing here? | ||
| I didn't even know you were here and then someone said they saw you having dinner. | ||
| Well, I got an invitation from someone I know who has transportation for making this sort of thing very straightforward and so we had the opportunity, Tammy and I, had the opportunity to come down and why the hell not come down, you know? | ||
| I mean it's... | ||
| It's a stunningly interesting anthropological endeavour for a Canadian. | ||
| It's great theatre and I've interviewed a lot of the candidates now and so I know them a little bit and I was fascinated to see how they would all perform. | ||
| What do you think of Doug? | ||
| What did I think it dug? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I thought actually all things considered, and maybe it's because Canada sets such a low bar on this front, I thought that the entire slate of candidates was really quite markedly credible. | ||
| I think all of them landed at least one blow. | ||
| I don't think any of them made The sort of mistake that would make you cringe and make you think they were clearly unfit for the job. | ||
| It was a tough debate because there's eight people and you don't have a lot of time to develop your arguments. | ||
| And so, you know, I thought... I could have been far less impressed with the whole endeavor than I was. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But were you impressed? | ||
| Yeah, was there anything that kind of moved you or moved you on anyone specifically? | ||
| And yeah, you've interviewed pretty much all the heavy hitters. | ||
| Well, Tim Scott's got a good sense of humor. | ||
| I like that. | ||
| I think he's nicer. | ||
| He has a nicer persona than anybody can possibly be. | ||
| And I think that that's probably actually harming him. | ||
| There's not enough shadow there, I don't think. | ||
| Meaning that it comes off as inauthentic. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, it's inauthentic. | |
| He's a phony. | ||
| It lacks... it's like Elevator Muzak, you know? | ||
| It lacks gravitas. | ||
| And he may figure that out. | ||
| What did you make of it, Beck? | ||
| Because, I mean, for me, like the debate, the thing that was most surprising was so much... he was able to draw all the attention to him despite being the least kind of, you know, politically established figure on that stage. | ||
| That's quite an accomplishment. | ||
| Yeah, well, it was his ability to Generate both positive and negative emotion. | ||
| Yeah excess was quite on display because I think he had the most positive and the most negative response, right? | ||
| So we had the most variability and I suppose that's part of charisma, right? | ||
| I would say He's clearly bright. | ||
| I think that some of the things he did Exemplified the utility of his youthfulness and there is some use in that now because the world's changing so quickly that being somewhat younger, at least in principle, could be advantageous. | ||
| He didn't use pause as well. | ||
| He's kind of impulsive, you know. | ||
| I don't think the insults he levied against the other candidates, I don't think any of them helped him. | ||
| What do you think specifically of the line where he said, I'm the only one on this stage who's not bought and sold? | ||
| I thought that was the one that kind of blew it for him. | ||
| That was the worst element of his performance, was that line. | ||
| And it was unfortunate to me because the reason he said that, at least in part, is because he has concentrated on A. spending his own money and B. gathering a multitude of tiny donations from very many people. | ||
| So he's not beholden to super PACs, let's say. | ||
| And I think he could have explained that to people. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Instead of using what was essentially a cheap shot What made it a cheap shot was you can't insult seven people at the same time with the same insult, right? | ||
| It's not targeted. | ||
| That's what we were talking about when you got here was Trump would say very similar things. | ||
| I'm the only one not bought and paid for, but he would direct it at Jeb Bush or he would direct it at Marco Rubio. | ||
| Like, every one of those people on that stage has some degree of affection among Republican voters, even if they don't intend to vote for them. | ||
| So when you're just condemning all of them at once, you're going to offend somebody. | ||
| I also don't think you did them any good. | ||
| I don't think the audience responded to it well, and I also don't think that... | ||
| There's no reason for any of the Republican candidates to make enemies out of the people they're running against any more than is absolutely necessary. | ||
| Because, as you said, they all have a constituency. | ||
| They're all in the same boat. | ||
| And, you know, if you could land a criticism and it furthered your case, then fine. | ||
| But my sense in watching Vivek was that the The insults were not... They also highlighted his youthfulness in a way that was negative. | ||
| Because it wasn't... There was an element of it that was... Sophomoric? | ||
| Yes, yes, yes, exactly. | ||
| A little unsophisticated. | ||
| Yeah, exactly, exactly. | ||
| It's where that degenerated into sort of like a high school debate. | ||
| What did you think? | ||
| The one moment I would give him credit for with that is it really seemed that he got under Nikki Haley's skin. | ||
| And I thought she came off very peevish when she was trying to counter and wagging her finger in his face. | ||
| Yeah, well... | ||
| Vivek's very skillful. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| There's lots of things in the debate he did well, and he can certainly defend himself. | ||
| I just don't think that his descent into the realm of insult... I don't think there was anything in it that was positive. | ||
| So I think he should just stop doing that. | ||
| I thought DeSantis came across very credibly. | ||
| His performance didn't have a lot of highs, but it didn't have any lows. | ||
| It was sort of... A flatline? | ||
| Yeah, but a reasonably... | ||
| a reasonably, what would you call it, competent flatline. | ||
| And he got going pretty good on the southern border defense. | ||
| I said to Malice, and you know how I feel about this, I said that for me it was basically | ||
| a push. | ||
| That there was no major win, but nobody hit him on anything at all. | ||
| So I thought that was kind of decent on his side. | ||
| But I want to ask you about Trump for a sec because you had a line with Piers Morgan about a year ago where he was asking you about whether Trump should run or not. | ||
| And you said that in essence, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but in essence it was that we have to have this out publicly because otherwise there will be too much... Well that's part of the problem with this criminal prosecution. | ||
| And then a debate that he's not at. | ||
| Yeah, right. | ||
| Well, you know, and I also think that's terribly off-brand. | ||
| And I think the same, I don't think it's off-brand with Biden, but I think it's the same kind | ||
| of mistake. | ||
| It's like, come and stomp your opponents. | ||
| Show people you can do it. | ||
| Now, I think what he did tonight, in some ways, given that he didn't show up at the debate, was brilliant strategically to go talk to Tucker tonight at the same time. | ||
| It started five minutes earlier. | ||
| It was pre-taped. | ||
| It was pre-taped. | ||
| Very canny with both their parts. | ||
| But I think in a democracy that was fully functioning properly, Biden would be debating and so would Trump. | ||
| And I think that that's a mark of respect for the process and for the American people. | ||
| But it's also a mark of confidence, you know. | ||
| And so, and Trump might be thinking, well, I only have something to lose. | ||
| But I don't think that that defensive strategy is the most appropriate strategy | ||
| for someone who actually wants to be a leader. | ||
| point earlier, I think a lot of this has to be a legal strategy because if he's | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| gonna be asked about his cases, he can't just plead the fifth on that on that | ||
| debate stage and he has a big problem of opening his mouth and making things | ||
| worse for him legally possibly. Yeah well you know I don't know what precautions | ||
|
unidentified
|
he's taking in relationship to his legal battle. He's not really renowned | |
| for taking a lot of precautions. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| Well, but that's also partly why... Oh, that was another thing I thought too and this is relevant to Trump. | ||
| I think all the candidates... So you saw very frequently when the discussion wandered into Trump territory Especially if it was critical of Trump that the audience would respond quite negatively. | ||
| And that's interesting because most of the people here obviously aren't so enamored with Trump that they won't come to the debate. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| But you see that fracture and I don't think any of the candidates really capitalized on that disaffectation among the working class in particular. | ||
| That's a great point. | ||
| Yeah, the Reagan Democrats. | ||
| that Trump manages. None of them capitalized on that energy. | ||
| And I think that's, and that was also true of Vivek, right? And that's, none of them did | ||
| that. And that's, that's definitely a lack because Trump's a master at that. They're working. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They're Reagan Democrats. Yeah. They're just money on the table for them. Yeah. I asked Glenn this | |
| when he sat down and Glenn and I used to be hardcore enemies on Twitter for years fighting with | ||
| each other. And you know, he was always getting into it with Sam Harris and all that stuff. | ||
| Do you find it odd that you're at a Republican debate, and you're, you know... Because I said absolutely everything about my life on... You're a Canadian psychology professor, C.G.! | ||
|
unidentified
|
Don't look at me like that! | |
| We all do! | ||
| But you're there and you walk in and really you got as big applause as anyone in that room that was on that stage sitting with Glenn and the anarchists over here and we've been doing our thing for years but like what an odd collection of people that are trying to make sense and whatever whether we're right or wrong about any of the stuff we're talking about This is far more closer to the truth than anything that's on CNN or MSNBC or these other places right now. | ||
| Well, and you can see this really starting to have a profound effect. | ||
| I mean, DeSantis' people reached out to me today, so he'll be on my podcast soon. | ||
| I talked to Chris Christie. | ||
| I talked to Mike Pence. | ||
| You know, I've interviewed a large number of the candidates, and I'll probably interview, well, all the rest of them who want to. | ||
| Doug? | ||
| Will you talk to Doug? | ||
| Yeah, well, we'll see. | ||
| The positive side of that is that the podcasts, it's very difficult, it's very difficult to falsify a podcast. | ||
| I think, and Rogan's talked about this too, if you bring someone in and you run them out for two hours, first of all, you see if there's enough there to talk for two hours and you can't, you can't really be a persona for two hours. | ||
| Especially not on YouTube. | ||
| People figure that out real quick. | ||
| And so I think we could see a real shift in the public conception of politicians, but also politicians' conceptions of the public. | ||
| Because part of the reason that politicians have come to believe that the public is stupid and has no attention span is that television had a 30-second attention span. | ||
| You know, you had to assume your audience remembered nothing, knew nothing, and could flip out to a different channel at any moment. | ||
| Plus, the bandwidth was insanely expensive. | ||
| Now all that's gone. | ||
| So, I think that'll be a revolution in political discourse. | ||
| I was talking about this with Dave earlier. | ||
| It was a huge unforced error for the DeSantis campaign. | ||
| to not be making the rounds of podcasts. | ||
| Because Vivek was like monkey pox, he was everywhere. | ||
| He was doing every podcast, answering questions without canned answers, coming off like, | ||
| hey, I'm talking to your different audiences. | ||
| And one of the big things about New Hampshire and Iowa used to be, I want to shake the guy's hand, | ||
| was that like 50% of people who meet the candidate end up voting for him. | ||
| So that personal contact is not as personal on podcasts as one degree removed. | ||
| That really did well for him with getting with the Republican Party. | ||
| Well, I'm glad to hear he's doing your show. | ||
| It's just sad to us that he's fallen to some degree into the hands of professional political consultants. | ||
| And those people live in like 1990. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And I mean, because if you, I mean, of course, like 10 years ago, no serious politician would go on | ||
| podcast. | ||
| Now there's a huge number of voters, arguably a majority, who do not trust the people who you go and speak with | ||
| if you go on cable news or if you go on network news. | ||
| They trust the people who have podcasts. | ||
| The audience sizes are comparable. | ||
| And if you're unwilling to subject yourself to that, it seems exactly like you said. | ||
| Or take advantage of it. | ||
| Or take advantage of it, because Ron Sanchez is a very smart guy. | ||
| He's someone who I think would thrive in those kinds of settings. | ||
| But if you're only willing to confine yourself to the precincts of traditional Politicians, people are going to start to think that you are one of those. | ||
| And I think that's been one of the mistakes he's made. | ||
| Well look, he did, not that I'm his defender, but I think he's come around on some of this stuff. | ||
| He did Russell Brand. | ||
| He did Megyn Kelly. | ||
| He's going to do your show. | ||
| Have you spoke to him? | ||
| Yeah, we've been, we're in talks to have him come on my show. | ||
| All right, so I think some of that will change. | ||
| On the mainstream media part of this and just watching like when you're in there and how old the whole thing feels. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| The commercial break. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| The we're going to ding. | ||
| The sound of the ding. | ||
| I was like, what year is this? | ||
| The raising of the hands, which like DeSantis expressed contempt for, which I thought was one of his better moments. | ||
| Because I think people do hate these kind of formats. | ||
| Oh, so you think that was a better moment for him? | ||
| Because the crowd kind of groaned as if he looked around. | ||
| Yeah, but he more so was dismissing the... I think picking fights with media, even Fox News now, among conservative voters, which, you know, is used to be kind of heretical and now has become a lot more acceptable | ||
| is always a winning strategy. I mean, you look at pulling down, there is nobody, no institution | ||
| that is held in greater contempt than media. That is just the reality. So great. I mean, | ||
| maybe pedophiles, if you attack them, it's a little more popular. But you were hit yourself. But | ||
| there's, you know, fighting with media where you're a very bad man, their format is a no | ||
| lose situation. I thought I actually thought that was a good and it is true. Like you ask a serious | ||
| question about climate or, you know, Um... | ||
| Fossil fuels and the only way that you're supposed to answer is by raising your hand or not. | ||
| As you said, we're not school children. | ||
| Let's have that debate or not have it. | ||
| I thought that was actually a good moment. | ||
| Yeah, I thought so too. | ||
| And I think the point was well taken. | ||
| I thought the hand raising was juvenile. | ||
| Andy won! | ||
| They said okay. | ||
| They did end up talking about it as well. | ||
| Did you guys think it was funny that at the beginning of the debate, and again, I don't know if this was heard on television, they said to everyone in the audience, don't yell, don't jeer, but from the second it started, it just happens. | ||
| And then that does change the way people at home start feeling about some of the answers. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Of course. | |
| If Chris Christie was making a perfectly reasonable point, then he can't get his next sentence out because he's getting booed overwhelmingly. | ||
| That's going to read differently to people. | ||
| You know, human beings are social animals. | ||
| You pick up cues from those around you. | ||
| Jordan, wait. | ||
| Well, and the crowd is part of the phenomenon, right? | ||
| I mean, an integral part. | ||
| What do you think, Christy? | ||
| Because Malice and I both kind of thought, I thought he had a pretty good night. | ||
| I thought he kind of, he's aggressive when he needs to be. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And then he's kind of decent when he needs to be. | ||
| Christy's got a spine. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You know, and I noticed that when I, when I... You really are, aren't you? | ||
| I think they call that, I think they call that the radius. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Everyone tries to avoid these jokes at the end, and it's always a failure. | |
| It's not easy to avoid Chris Christy, let me assure you. | ||
| But I thought, yeah, I thought, And Christy was also generous in relationship to Pence and that was a good moment on his part. | ||
| And I also thought that that was something that would have showed an additional level of maturity in Vivek if he had been gracious at some point to his opponents, a few of them, to give the devil his due. | ||
| Because I think if you're confident Since we are here in America doing a debate, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about what's going on up in Canada. | ||
| Because you are in the midst of a fiasco that I have told you many times you must move to Florida. | ||
| candidates have. | ||
| Since we are here in America doing a debate, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about | ||
| what's going on up in Canada. | ||
| Oh God. | ||
| Because you are in the midst of a fiasco that I have told you many times, you must move | ||
| to Florida, enough is enough. | ||
| Texas. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| You want to just recap a little bit of what's going on with you in Canada right now? | ||
| Well, I committed the unforgivable sin of opposing transbutchery, for example, which I regard as a crime against humanity, because that's what forced sterilization is, and surgery on minors that castrates them, for example. | ||
| That's forced sterilization. | ||
| And so one of the tweets that I was pilloried for, kicked off Twitter, was a tweet directed at Elliot Page, or Ellen | ||
| Page. | ||
| Ellen Page, yes. | ||
| And someone complained about that to the College of Psychologists, and although they do not have to pursue complaints if they're | ||
| vexatious, they decided they would pursue that and 13 others, 7 of | ||
| which they dropped. | ||
| And all of them are political. | ||
| It's so interesting to see this. | ||
| It's fascinating. | ||
| First of all, they were levied by people who claimed falsely to be clients of mine, which they weren't, in writing. | ||
| But more importantly, two criticisms of Trudeau, One criticism of his chief of staff, one criticism of a city councillor in Ottawa. | ||
| The entire transcript of my discussion with Joe Rogan, focusing mostly, the complaint was focusing mostly on the fact that I think the climate change fear mongers are tyrannical authoritarians and that almost everything they say is not only false. | ||
| Even Greta? | ||
| Even, well, maybe not Greta, because she's such a wonderful girl. | ||
| She's also selective mute, so she doesn't say that much. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| Well, and she's obviously one of the world's leading authorities on the nexus between the energy environment and the economy. | ||
| You don't want to engage her on the merits, given her vast scientific expertise. | ||
| So, so, these are obviously, these are clearly political opinions. | ||
| Clearly political opinions. | ||
| And the charges that I brought the Profession of psychology into disgrace, essentially, that I've conducted myself unprofessionally. | ||
| The fact that ten million people have bought my books and have regarded them as helpful seems to be absolutely irrelevant in contrast to the fact that six people in six years have complained about me. | ||
| Well, it's not really relevant in the sense it's probably the motive. | ||
| It's probably the most relevant part. | ||
| At the end of the day, your impact is the reason they regard you as the danger. | ||
| I just want to ask you though, we hear so many of these stories now, and every time I listen to them I try very hard not to lose sight. | ||
| Of just how shocking it is, like how often now there are cases of people being officially persecuted by the state for pure political speech. | ||
| But you predicted this! | ||
| You predicted this! | ||
| The first time you came on my show, 2017, you came on. | ||
| This was absolutely inevitable. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Definitely. | |
| I remember back in the day, 2009-2010, when I was very much associated on the left, there was that case of Ezra Levant and another with Mark Stein, where they were both brought up on administrative charges under the Human Rights Law. | ||
| I defended each of them, and they were surprised, but that was always part of my worldview. | ||
| You could see it coming. | ||
| That was definitely a canary in the coal mine. | ||
| Absolutely, just completely now unraveling everywhere in the democratic world. | ||
| I live in Brazil where they're destroying people's lives, they're preventing them from going on the internet, people who make their living as podcasters, and there's no pretense any longer that it's because of anything but political views. | ||
| It's becoming increasingly explicit. | ||
| That hate speech and disinformation is being dispensed with. | ||
| These people have ideas that are dangerous and destabilizing to society and therefore we can't allow them. | ||
| And the public opinion in support of this is really alarming. | ||
| I mean there's no public resistance, not none, but not a lot, not nearly what it should be. | ||
| Canadians, the thing about Canadians is that for about 175 years we could take for granted the fundamental integrity of our institutions. | ||
| So when I For most of my life, the socialists were a labor party. | ||
| They were all union guys, so they had something to say. | ||
| They were union guys. | ||
| The liberals were centrists, and they played the left and the right and took the best ideas from both and generally governed. | ||
| The conservatives were the party of big business. | ||
| Everyone knew that, and essentially everybody played that game. | ||
| The education system worked reasonably well. | ||
| At least it wasn't corrupt. | ||
| Both the public education system and the higher education system. | ||
| Canada's a pretty damn functional country. | ||
| Even the CBC was fundamentally the same kind of credible news source that the BBC was, you know, 15 years ago. | ||
| And all of that's inverted. | ||
| And the same's the case of the judiciary. | ||
| And Canadians... Think about what they're being asked to swallow. | ||
| Either someone like me knows what the hell's going on, Or, no, either someone like me is wrong, or all of the institutions in Canada have become dangerously corrupt. | ||
| Well, who the hell's going to believe the second one? | ||
| Right. | ||
| You know, you need overwhelming evidence before you believe that. | ||
| What do you think is the precipitating event that caused that transformation? | ||
| You were just describing these fundamentally trustworthy institutions, probably did some things wrong. | ||
| Fundamentally, though, as you said, benevolent, fair, predictable. | ||
| What do you think caused this kind of spiraling away from that legitimacy? | ||
| Well, the universities had a lot to do with it. | ||
| You know, the dissemination of truly pathological postmodern slash... I call them neo-Marxist, but they're worse than Marxist ideas. | ||
| You know, the Marxists were only... They're always obsessing about economic inequality. | ||
| Well, now it's inequality on every dimension you can possibly imagine. | ||
| It's like meta-Marxism. | ||
| And so I think the universities bear a huge responsibility for this. | ||
| A huge responsibility. | ||
| Don't you think also the internet and the free flow of information is a huge threat to their power? | ||
| Because if you have to defend your ideas in a free market of discourse and so on and so forth, if you're building an empire based on lies, as soon as I catch you at one, two, three lies, they start crumbling down. | ||
| So they have to kind of double down to maintain their hegemony. | ||
| Well, some of that, some of that's obviously the case in relationship to how the legacy media has degenerated because part of the reason they degenerate is like, well, how can they not degenerate? | ||
| How can you compete with YouTube? | ||
| YouTube is free and billions of people are its audience. | ||
| game over on the network side, obviously, because you can't compete with that. | ||
| And then the networks start losing their good people, especially their great people, and | ||
| once you lose your great people, well, you have mediocre people, and then the mediocre | ||
| people get more desperate, and then they lose their editorial staff, and they lose their | ||
| foreign correspondence, and then they devolve to clickbait, and, you know, part of that's | ||
| just technological transformation. | ||
| And so, you add that to the warping of the educational institutions, and I would also say, you know, that the social media landscape does facilitate public discourse in a remarkable way. | ||
| I think that's especially true of video forums like YouTube and Rumble, but it also facilitates the divisive psychopaths in a way that normal | ||
| discourse doesn't. | ||
| You're looking at me when you say this. | ||
| No, I happen to be looking at you. | ||
| I am on that team. | ||
| Yeah, but well, and I really think this is a problem because there's a small number of people who | ||
| attempt to induce chaos. | ||
| 3% of them do. | ||
| 3% of the population. | ||
| And we have mechanisms to protect ourselves against them in face-to-face discourse. | ||
| But they're absolutely disinhibited online. | ||
| There's nothing you can do about it. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| Those types of people. | ||
| You bet. | ||
| You bet. | ||
| And there's psychological literature on that. | ||
| The Cluster B people. | ||
| Yes, exactly. | ||
| Well, and worse than Cluster B. I mean, there are dark tetrad types. | ||
| Machiavellian, narcissistic, psychopathic, and because that wasn't enough, they added | ||
| sadistic, right? | ||
| And so, and the online troll types, for example, are much more disproportionately likely to | ||
| manifest those personality traits, and that's not good. | ||
| And it's like mob justice though, too. | ||
| It's like mob justice. | ||
| Brings out the worst of human instincts, right? | ||
| I mean, like, once you join a mob and that frenzy gives you that sense of righteousness, there are no limits. | ||
| Especially when no one can hold you accountable. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| And I wonder what you make, though, too. | ||
| For me, I think, like, one of the accelerants, for sure, was the summer where, first, you had the British people rejecting what they were told to do and leaving the European Union with Brexit. | ||
| Very closely followed by the shocking election of Trump. | ||
| Shocking in every way. | ||
| Experts said it wouldn't happen. | ||
| No, I don't think Trump thought it was going to happen. | ||
| It shouldn't happen. | ||
| You have no right to vote for this guy. | ||
| Everyone agrees. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And I think at the end of that, there was a decision we can no longer trust. | ||
| Westerners with the freedom that the internet has been given, that we've been given them, and that I think was when the crackdown really became persuasive. | ||
| But they're right from their perspective. | ||
| No, I think they made a rational judgment that things were spiraling out of their control and they needed to regain it. | ||
| That's what establishments do. | ||
| Yes, 100%. | ||
| Well, guys, Glenn, you've got to do your show, right? | ||
| I do have a show that I have to do as well, Dave. | ||
| I decided to give you my premium time. | ||
| I appreciate that. | ||
| Jordan, are you heading back out on tour or what are you doing now? | ||
| Oh, well, I'm up now in northern Alberta finishing up my next book, which is coming along It's going to be a bomb, Dave. | ||
| I'm telling you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It's going to be an explosion. | |
| I could have actually phrased that better. | ||
| Now you're going to be in more trouble with the Canadian government. | ||
| Wait, but just to cap that though, so where is this all at? | ||
| I'll be done in a month. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And I should publish it in February, I think, is about the plan at the moment. | ||
| No, no, I meant what's going on with you and the Canadian government. | ||
| Oh, who the hell knows? | ||
| Well, the next thing they have to do, apparently, and will do now, is they'll take me in front of... they're going to put me... A show trial? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| It's worse than that. | ||
| It's forced re-education. | ||
| No. | ||
| Oh, absolutely. | ||
| I have to take courses with a social media expert. | ||
| And you have to pay for it yourself, don't you? | ||
| Yes, and it's of an indefinite term until I've learned my lesson. | ||
|
unidentified
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Jordan Peterson is going to be taught how to use social media, correct? | |
| By a social media expert? | ||
| Holy crap! | ||
| It is shot. | ||
| I'm saying these things should be... This is already in place. | ||
| This isn't going to... This isn't potential. | ||
| This will be their next step. | ||
| You can teach the course in trolling. | ||
| We'll make it happen. | ||
| Yeah! | ||
| You can make it happen. | ||
| I'm gonna save this country. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Malice will... I told them already and I will do this. | ||
| I'll broadcast every bloody one of those sessions. | ||
| I will gladly rebroadcast them. | ||
| I have no doubt that these two guys will too. | ||
| I mean, it's so preposterous. | ||
| I kind of want to sit down with you. | ||
| Social media expert, eh? | ||
| Just exactly what the hell is that? | ||
| I kind of want to sit down with you and coach you a bit how to drive this person to just complete distraction until they're slitting their wrists. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm good at that. | |
| You do know he was a psychologist. | ||
| Yeah, but he's not a sadist Machiavelli sociopath. | ||
| That's the difference. | ||
| I've got that part of me incorporated. | ||
| I can bring it out when I need to. | ||
| Gentlemen, it was a pleasure. | ||
| This is, out of all of the post-game shows that are happening across the internet and across television, this has got to be the four strangest combos. | ||
| The most unlikely panel discussion that we have, it's true. | ||
| And the two starkest choices in suits right next to each other. | ||
|
unidentified
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I know, I feel very fashion backwards sitting next to Jordan, but that's just the risk. | |
| And for you guys, although I've been off the grid, I am back officially on September 5th. | ||
| Brand new studio, a couple big announcements coming. |
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