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Feb. 12, 2023 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
01:13:08
Why Did We Hide & Ignore This Vaccine Data? | Dr. Robert Malone | POLITICS | Rubin Report
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dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Early on, just as the clinical trials were still progressing, and then at the very earliest time when they started deploying this, it became clear that one of the adverse... There was two in particular that were popping up that my buddies at the FDA, who were outside of the review branch that I was having weekly Zooms with, said were being flagged.
And I was hearing it popping up from other physicians.
One was myocarditis, which the FDA and the CDC denied, and the Israelis denied.
That's a story.
And how that finally became public.
And the other one was reactivation of latent DNA viruses.
Shingles being a notable example.
And so there's a number of these large herpes-like DNA viruses that exist in our bodies for most of us.
Cytomegalovirus is another one.
Epstein-Barr virus is a major one.
And generally your T-cells keep these guys, you can think of it as Pandora's box, keeps the lid shut by, you know, T-cell suppression.
And if you pull that suppression off, the top pops open and all the nasties fly out of Pandora's box, I think is a good way to think about these latent DNA viruses.
And it was clear that that was happening after the jab.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I'm Dave Rubin and joining me today is a global clinical research scholar at Harvard
Medical School, a scientist, an author, a speaker, a bioethicist, and the inventor of
mRNA vaccine technology, Dr. Robert Malone.
Welcome to the Rubin Report.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Thank you so much.
It's lovely to see you here today on this rather cold Saturday here in Virginia, but it's sunny and it's You know, it's lookin' like it's gonna be a good year, I think.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
And you mentioned to me that you were just out on the farm, so you're dressed down a bit for your average podcast appearance.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, I had, I'm sorry, this didn't get on the schedule somehow, and I've got a bunch of hay and straw that I have to stack.
We have a young foal in the barn that's a little sketchy, and it's gonna be a cold night, so we wanna make sure he's well bedded down.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Nice.
Well, then we'll use your time well so that you can get to that.
You know, so when I was doing some research for this interview, your bio is basically pages and pages.
I mean, we just picked some highlights there.
But I was trying to remember some of the chronology of these last couple of years, which have gotten very weird in light of COVID.
And I'm actually, to say the least, to say the least, and I'm actually not sure if I had heard...
Surreal.
Yeah, exactly.
We are in the Matrix now.
But I'm actually not sure if I had heard of you before that famous or infamous appearance on Joe Rogan.
So maybe before we get to what's happened for the last couple years, do you want to just give us a little bit of recap of your career before that that led to this moment?
And then that's really where I want to spend most of the interview.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Well, I don't want to...
I don't belabor this too much.
I'm a physician and a scientist trained at UC San Diego, Salk Institute, UC Davis, and Northwestern University Medical School, and Harvard University Medical School.
So that's the high level.
I've been passionate about molecular biology and virology pretty much my whole career, and also virology with the vaccine emphasis, which is kind of Uh, what's brought me into the current.
And, uh, my focus back when I was a graduate student was trying to understand some fundamentals about RNA structure function and particularly how RNA gets inserted into a retrovirus.
And in order to ask fundamental questions, I had to design ways to make large quantities of purified RNA and put it into cells and detect its presence and blah, blah, blah.
And it just happened I was in a gene therapy lab working on gene therapy projects when I had this series of discoveries that made me aware that there was a potential to use RNA as a drug.
And of the various applications for a gene therapy or gene delivery system that doesn't actually work very well, that being with the cationic lipids.
The kind of entry-level application was vaccines, and so that was the origin of the DNA and the RNA vaccine idea.
Fast forward through, you know, a decade and a half of academia at UC Davis School of Pathology, U Maryland School of Pathology, both teaching medical schools, medical students, I'm sorry, at Pathology, and then Armed Forces University, the Health Sciences, where I helped set up The clinical breast care program in a research institute in Wimber, Pennsylvania.
I then started a company called Inovio that's still running that was largely based on my own technology and that of others in the field at the time.
And then the planes hit the towers.
The investors for Inovio pulled back.
My wife and I were left high and dry in Rockville.
And I reached out to a buddy at the Business and Economic Development office at Maryland State.
And he said, Hey, there's this new company up in Frederick, Maryland that I could probably make a phone call and you can get a job at.
That was Dynaport Vaccine Company, which had just received what the technical term is the prime systems contract for all biodefense products for the U.S.
Department of Defense.
And so I became their associate clinical director and basically was involved in clinical research on virtually all drugs, vaccines, and monoclonal antibody products that the DoD was developing for biodefense.
And that was really the pivot point in my career where I shifted from being a discovery research guy and finally had the realization that The world really doesn't need more academic thought leaders, it has plenty of those.
But what it does need is people who can bridge the gap, it's actually called the valley of death technically, a term Phil Russell employed, between the discovery part and actually making a product.
And I decided that I had spent enough time, various euphemisms come to mind, let's say chasing academia, And decided that I wanted to actually try to make things that made people's lives better and resulted in products.
So I shifted gears and really focused on learning the trade of clinical development, regulatory affairs, project management, proposal development, that whole toolkit that goes into being able to Uh, assemble teams to solve complicated problems and get them funded in, in the, uh, space of the government, uh, in particularly department of defense.
And I've, I've, uh, been study section chair on, on many large, uh, contract bid, uh, selection processes.
I've, uh, served the government in writing, uh, solicitations.
And then eventually I set up my own consulting practice, kind of got tired of working for Corporate America.
I worked for a Bill & Melinda Gates funded company called Aris Global TV Vaccine Foundation, also PATH in Seattle.
Worked for Solvay as their clinical director for influenza vaccines.
You know, many of these kind of things.
I just got tired of working for corporate and Having to tow the line and do the eight to five.
So I, uh, set up a consulting practice and that's kind of what I've done ever since.
But given my background, I'm, I'm known as a specialist in, like I said, assembling teams to solve complicated problems and being really adept at working at the interface between industry and the government.
That's an area that's really hard to navigate.
Not very many people have that whole skill set, maybe very, very few, that understand regulatory affairs and clinical development and all the other stuff, and can talk govey talk, but also can talk to the private sector and work with them.
So that was kind of my thing, and I've been involved in many outbreaks.
I was right at the tip of the spear in drug repurposing for Zika.
I was really asked by the Department of Defense and Defense Threat Reduction Agency to step in and solve a hot mess that was a small Midwestern company that owned the rights to a Ebola vaccine candidate that they bought from Canada for about $150,000.
And I carried that forward.
That was an amazing time.
People were scared out of their brains.
Ebola is a scary business.
Way more scary than the Corona.
And it drives people crazy.
And they'll shoot each other.
Ebola is a scary disease.
And so I got Merck involved in that project and got them to buy the product from the small Midwestern company.
And that's now the Merck Ebola vaccine.
So I've been doing this a long time.
And when you're in this space, you touch on the intelligence community all the time.
They are all thick throughout biodefense.
And so I've had many contacts that have been CIA.
I'm not CIA.
I'm not trained CIA.
I have been security cleared by the Department of Defense.
I'm sorry, Stu Peters.
You're wrong on that.
In George Webb, but there it is.
If you're in this business area, you touch on CIA folk all the time.
I've actually co-published with one that is now a retired CIA officer, who arguably is our top expert in gain-of-function research.
A former project manager at DARPA named Dr. Michael Callahan, who has an appointment at Harvard.
And he called me up on January 2nd, 2020, or January 4th, right around there, and said, hey Robert, we got a problem.
This novel coronavirus that's circulating here in Wuhan looks like it's going to be a problem.
And that's what got me going.
And that's kind of where the journey of the last three years begins.
And I did a threat assessment, as I always do.
He asked me to get the group that I work with kind of wound up.
and ready to respond to this.
And I did the usual threat assessment, and my sense was that we could not build a safe and effective vaccine in time to really make an impact as this would move as a wave across the globe.
And that what we needed to focus on was a repurposed drug.
So that's pretty much what I did for the first third of the last two years, largely with DoD funding, which I'm kind of adroit at getting.
I captured, I don't know, 300 million for various projects relating to drug repurposing.
And then, actually, there was a series of kind of red pill moments.
And you mentioned Joe Rogan.
Before Joe Rogan, there was the moment when I got called by Steve Kirsch to go on a podcast with this guy I'd never heard of before.
I'd hardly even heard of podcasting.
And this guy, the name of his podcast was kind of scary.
I thought it referred to the dark web.
It was the Dark Horse Podcast, and his name was Brett Weinstein.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Brett is a good friend of mine, and I was the first one that ever publicly interviewed him after he left Evergreen State, or when he was in the midst of that battle over there.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, so we all kind of sat around that little table, three old men, and talked for a couple hours.
The world went crazy.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Right, so okay, now having reminded me of that, of course I knew of you before the Rogan thing.
These last couple of years have been real fast.
But all right, so let's pause there for a second because that'll kind of set us up
for the last two and a half years or so.
And thank you for doing some of the bio stuff so I didn't have to read all of that.
But what I wanted to illustrate there was that you've got sort of the private sector,
you've got the government sector, something related at least closely enough
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
to the intelligence sector.
Non-governmental organizations, you know, I kind of been around the block three or four times.
Academia.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So with all of that in mind, let's just do some like basic 101 stuff for a moment
before we get to your red pill moment.
When people are talking about vaccines and the difference between these mRNA vaccines and how we've always done vaccines previously, can you give us just like a high-level version of that and sort of when did you become concerned that there was a difference in what was going on here?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
So I think what you're talking about is not what is the nature of a vaccine in terms of the technology, but rather what is the process to bring a vaccine to market.
And that's typically about a 10 year timeline.
To illustrate the point, the Department of Defense, if everything goes well, and it never does, is on track to have vaccines licensed for all Infectious disease agents that were deployed in biowarfare up until the end of World War II.
And if everything goes right, they'll have all those vaccines by 2050, a full century after the end of World War II.
Okay.
So we got a, we got a basically a 10, 10 year timeline to really do it right.
And, uh, that involves a significant nonclinical research, toxicology, pharmacodistribution, genotoxicity, A whole bunch of things that just got blown off to make sure that it's safe enough to go into humans in the first place.
And then once it's in humans, typically a vaccine goes through a very staged process of phase one trials, typically a couple of different phase one trials, phase two expanded trials.
Phase one is typically just kind of preliminary estimates of safety with low numbers.
You know, here's an important thing to know.
In vaccinology, we use the rule of three.
And the way this works is if you want to detect an adverse event that occurs in one in a thousand people, generally you have to test 3,000 people.
If you want to detect something that happens one in 30, okay, Or 1 in 10, I was going to say, 1 in 10, then you'd have to test 30 people, okay?
So that's kind of phase one, trial level.
1 in 10 is stuff that happens a lot, pretty much to everybody, right?
1 in 1,000 is something that matters a lot if you're going to be administering it to large populations, which generally is the case with vaccines, unless you're talking about special forces or something for some obscure pathogen.
And then when you really get to global deployment or national deployment, you want to have sample sizes in the kind of 300,000 range.
This is what the FDA has typically required in the past for new adjuvants, for example, for a vaccine.
But in this case, kind of all the rules went out the door.
In the rush, uh, in all the fear that was actively promoted.
Uh, and so when you, when you do it that step wise fashion, and then typically what happens is you, you first kind of move it forward in healthy, normal adults because they have lowest risks.
They can handle, um, insults, biologic insults best.
And then, then you move to elderly people.
And special populations like immunosuppressed and those kinds of things.
And you do a step down into the little babies.
Okay.
So first you do adolescents and then you do, at first you do young adults and you do adolescents, then you do children, then you do, uh, you know, young, very young, and then you can go down to neonates if you have to.
So that's the general process.
And to do all that takes enormous amount of time and the cost per subject For a well-run trial is something It starts at about 10,000 per person generally if you if you really mind your nickels You can get it down to about five or eight thousand per person and it goes up to about thirty or forty thousand per person So you can do the math and you quickly come up to some serious serious cash so it takes you know billions of dollars and
Um, years and years to do this safely.
And, uh, as you've seen, the decision was to rush the whole thing, uh, bypass almost everything.
Um, and, uh, started ministering it into, uh, a very broad population, a global population and do so.
Also bypassing this key thing that we all agreed on, in the Western world at least, after World War II, called the Nuremberg Accords and the Helsinki Accords, and then in moving to the present, we call this the Common Rule, in which people have to be granted informed consent, and you absolutely cannot coerce, compel, or entice Uh, people to take an unlicensed medical product that is just historically been off limits.
We all agreed.
Nope.
Germans did that.
You know, everybody thinks about what happened in Nazi Germany.
Uh, the story of what happened in Japan is even uglier.
Uh, the Japanese biowarfare program was, uh, you know, truly atrocious in terms of the bioethics.
And, uh, as I guess Bobby is going to point out in his next book.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Bobby Kennedy.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Uh, just like we imported a lot of the rocket scientists, uh, to launch NASA, so to speak.
Uh, we imported both German, but particularly the Japanese biowarfare experts and the records associated with that, uh, up to Fort Detrick in Frederick, Maryland.
To launch our biowarfare program, which after Nixon made the determination that we were going to put in place the biowarfare treaty, got transformed into a biodefense program.
The same people doing the same stuff, pretty much.
And that's kind of where that's all gone.
It's not a pretty picture.
And the deeper you look into it, and The biolabs that we set up in Georgia, the former Soviet state, and then presumably the biolabs that we set up in Ukraine.
Those offshore biolabs have a long, rich history of ethical abuses, let's say, gently.
So it's a mixed bag here.
There's a lot of...
I do believe that there is an unmet need, and that was the logic for advancing the RNA tech in theory, was there absolutely is an unmet need for ability to respond rapidly to engineered pathogens and emerging infectious disease, but I think personally that what's been done will basically Destroy global public confidence in any of this kind of activity for the foreseeable future Yeah, I think I think we've done that already and God only knows where that leaves us when when something really big hits But so I want to back up for a second.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So when you got that call around the second or fourth of January of January back in 2020 Now, Warp Speed was basically a couple months later.
What were you warning about at that point?
I mean, were you basically trying to get information to the administration to say, don't rush this thing because God only knows what's gonna happen or what the vaccine injuries are gonna be, et cetera, et cetera, putting aside the coercion and everything else?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
So actually, Callahan, I sent We launched a drug discovery program involving repurposed drugs that was absolutely cutting edge.
Computational modeling.
We screened the entire library of all known licensed drugs as well as nutraceuticals.
And we came up with a ranked list of agents.
And then I was at a drug discovery conference involving artificial intelligence and machine learning At MIT in the end of February 2020, and I got infected with the original Wuhan strain in that first wave that moved through Boston.
And came home, wasn't even aware that the virus had hit Boston at that point.
We all thought it was in Seattle.
And, you know, starting to trickle into New York.
My wife came in as I'm laying sick as a dog in the bed and said, hey Robert, you know what, you probably got this one.
And at that point, as somebody with a background in pathology and working with a very strong team, including other pathologists, I was of the belief that this was likely to be lethal, or at a minimum, To cause a progressive interstitial pulmonary fibrosis, which is basically to say lingering death from loss of lung function and So that was kind of grim And and I started that's what that's just what you were feeling just based on how you felt at the time then and I was sick I was really sick and Burning lungs
Lots of symptoms.
I was embarrassed to do it, but out of desperation, I started taking the drugs that we'd identified.
It's generally not kosher to experiment on yourself, in terms of medical ethics, but you're lying here, there's no drugs, there's no docs that know how to treat it.
Here in Virginia, they didn't even have any testing.
You know, I called up the public health service and said, hey, I need to get the definitive diagnosis.
And they said, well, if you think you have it, you probably do.
And that was about it in February.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So then you test on yourself like every bad guy in a Marvel movie, basically.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, I started trying the drugs.
And I tried, everybody's really hot on quercetin.
It's in many of the protocols.
For me, quercetin and isoquercetin was just a bust, nothing.
But I took famotidine, this pepsi drug, and suddenly, within an hour, I had a clinical response, my lungs stopped burning, I could breathe better, and I was like, okay, this is kind of important.
So we really chased the tail on that one, and eventually got it into clinical trials, and got papers published, and some couldn't get published once they started blocking all publication of repurposed drugs.
And we continued on in a contract with MIT Lincoln Labs, really identified, racked, and stacked a whole bunch of agents that we're all familiar with now for the DoD, potentially for the warfighter.
And then this buzz started with the VJABs and what had been done with OWS.
People started contacting me for information because everybody was confused and intimidated by this acronym, RNA.
What does this all mean, you know?
No one would talk, and so it was ring up Robert Malone and hope he could shed some light.
And that's what kind of set that ball rolling.
So I hope that fills in some of the gaps for you.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, so as now they're rolling out Warp Speed and you realize that this technology that you were one of the experts on and had the patents on all this stuff and everything else, as you realize that this is going to be now pushed, really, on everyone in America with all this, you know, the companies were going to have no liability and all of this crazy stuff, what was your first red pill moment related to that?
When did you realize that something was wrong here?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Well, I realized something was wrong when the book that my wife, the author, put together in February, really in January and published in the beginning of February, called How to Prepare and Protect Yourself from the Novel Coronavirus, got censored in March and taken down by Amazon.
And the justification, it took us forever to finally get them to fess up as to why, because their usual policies, they'll tell you, you know, oh, there's porn on page 52 or whatever the thing is, right?
You fat shame somebody.
Whatever your sin is, they'll usually tell you.
They wouldn't tell us anything.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Although in the case of COVID, a little fat shaming probably would help, but okay.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, but that's not allowed these days.
So, in any case, finally, the other shoe drops.
We have violated community standards.
What are those community standards?
Undefined, but we violated them.
Okay, so that's the first time I ever heard that phrase.
And so it went.
There was a series of things, but in terms of the jab, a couple of key things, both of which involved Canadians, really crystallized things for me.
I got a A call about, really out of desperation, from a Canadian physician practicing in Toronto who wants to be not named.
His office has been broken in, his computer has been trashed by the government.
I mean, he's totally been targeted for the sin of prescribing ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine and saving people's lives.
But he called me, brokered by Steve Kirsch, on a Saturday evening, seems forever ago, and was just appealing to me, hoping that I could get through to the Canadian regulatory authorities and help them understand what was really going on.
You know, kind of naively.
And I had already managed, I'd already called in and had conversations and had ongoing conversations with senior people at the FDA.
But I don't know anybody in the Canadian Regulatory Authority, and I don't even know the Canadian regs that well.
And so I had to say to him, you know, we had this long conversation where he was telling me about how they were deleting Any records that he would enter having to do with adverse events of his patients after they took the jab and just totally disregarding what he was observing clinically.
And furthermore, uh, they were, the government was enticing children to take the jab with ice creams.
And, and for me, this was an ethical horror.
I'd never heard of anything like this.
You know, this is what I've been trained to never do.
Uh, you know, on pain of, Losing my ability to ever practice clinical research again and So I I had to tell him I it's just we talked until midnight I said there's nothing I can do for you.
I just don't know.
I don't know who to call I don't know what to say and I woke up in the morning and My wife and I are both well trained in bioethics My mentor in bioethics was her PhD mentor a guy named it'll Shamu and And I woke up and I said, Jill, I know what we can do for this poor guy.
Uh, we can publish an article on, uh, the bioethics of what's going on with these vaccines and the failure to, uh, enable informed consent and the enticement and coercion.
And what is the history of the bioethics rules that apply, et cetera.
And, uh, so that was, that was the first big one.
And I think that was the first article out.
that really drilled into what was going on wrong with the bioethics.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
And then- So basically, you first were concerned just about informed consent.
This is before you had any sense of what the vaccine injuries might be, right?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
So this is just about- So at that point, I'm skating on thin ice.
I'm hearing these injuries.
And I know I'm seeing the amazing that's going on.
And gaslighting and information control and everything, blacklisting that's going on.
And so I'm trying to figure out, okay, how can I navigate this minefield and say something that will move the ball forward and get everybody to see that this isn't right, what's going on, without just getting my head cut off.
And labeled as an anti-vaxxer nutcase.
Obviously, I didn't succeed very well in that.
But that was the attempt, was to thread the needle.
And I thought that bioethics was something where I clearly had the core expertise and competence.
I was absolutely on the right.
I mean, there's no ifs, ands, or buts about this topic.
In terms of what is right and proper.
And so I thought, well, this is one thing I can do here that should be able to penetrate through the mainstream media and get people away.
So that's what I focused on.
And that's focused on for quite a few months was just trying to be the voice of responsible bioethics and drive that home.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
And was any of that breaking through to mainstream media?
I actually don't recall seeing you.
Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't recall seeing you on CNN or on Meet the Press or anything.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
So basically, you try that for a while and then... In parallel, UPenn and BioNTech were aggressively marketing two characters for the Nobel Prize.
Katie Kariko and Drew Weissman.
Katie is a former Hungarian spy and Drew is a former Tony Fauci post-doc, both of whom ended up working at UPenn.
This is about a decade later from after what I did my work.
They had this discovery that they could use pseudouridine in the RNA and get more immune response.
And they were being marketed aggressively, because this is one way to play the game if you want to get a Nobel Prize for your institution, as the inventors of this whole technology and concept.
And I was just kind of pissed about being written out of history.
And so I objected to that.
Then this huge marketing campaign came at me.
About, um, oh, you, you absolutely not the inventor.
Um, you're lying.
You're misrepresenting, you know, your risk misrepresenting your CV.
And, and, uh, and it's all about Katie and Drew and, uh, you know, New York times and CNN interviews for them and everything.
And so I, I just became a very inconvenient, uh, uh, squeaky wheel in that whole environment.
And then when I'm coming out with this messaging about bioethics, I was already kind of got the black spot, despite having worked with media for almost two decades, usually on background.
The reason why you never heard of me before is I have had multiple hard lessons in the wisdom of the common DC saying, If they can't see you, they can't shoot you.
As a consultant, I've been able to do what I did by staying behind the scenes, letting my clients take the credit, and just kind of laying low and getting my business done and collecting my fee.
So that was a long-standing intentional strategy.
Department of Defense in particular, but most clients really don't like to have The consultant be out front.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So, right.
So you have the initial issue is the coercion.
Then the vaccines are out.
You already had heard of some vaccine injuries and things of that nature.
When did it shift?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
And then this other Canadian comes in, Byram Bridle.
So Byram, who I'd never heard of before, but he's an absolutely well-qualified vaccinologist, immunologist.
Academic.
University of Guelph, is that right, I think?
I may be confusing him with Matthias Desmet, so forgive me if I did.
So Byram apparently manages to grab the common technical document for the Pfizer submission for allowance to proceed in humans.
So common technical document, we used to call those INDs.
It's the dossier of everything they know about the product that they use to justify initiating clinical trials.
And usually those are considered confidential, so the likes of you and I can't get at them, because otherwise we would be able to go and try to reverse engineer whatever the new product is.
And so For whatever reason, the Japanese apparently put this, you know, common technical document is basically a universal document that gets submitted to all regulatory agencies all over the world.
And they put it on a server and Byram had somehow grabbed it, or one of his buddies had, and sent it to him.
And he'd done an analysis of it.
Most of it's in Japanese, but the figures and legends are in English.
And so he went through that and he was pretty shocked by what he found.
But he's not a regulatory affairs expert, and he doesn't have the kind of hybrid experience I have.
So he asked a buddy of mine that runs a company called Trial Site News to see whether or not I would take a look at it.
So it comes to me right after it goes to Byram, and I'm asked to do an independent assessment.
And I read through the thing, and I'm pretty shocked.
And how shoddy it is.
It's just, it's atrocious and shocking to me that this would be submitted for anything.
I mean, if I submitted that, I would expect to get reprimanded, if not basically tarred and feathered by the FDA.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Was that because of the efficacy of what you were seeing?
What was the most shocking part of it?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
No, it was just, there was no, real efficacy data.
They weren't even testing the real drug product.
They were substituting an mRNA coating for a firefly protein, luciferase.
unidentified
So it was the methodology of the whole thing, basically.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
It was completely inadequate by any standards that I had been trained on.
Completely inadequate as a package.
And so I wrote up my assessment, and I was so concerned By what I thought I saw, you know, this can't possibly be coming from Pfizer.
This can't possibly be, you know, I must be missing something.
So I sent it to a more senior regulatory affairs guy that I know, that I used to work with at another contract research organization.
And he looked it over and he said, Oh yeah, Robert, everything you said here is true, but you missed a couple of others.
And so I said, well, okay, that's great.
I need to write this up now as an essay, uh, for Trial Site News.
Do you want your name on it?
He's like, no, no, no, no, no.
Don't put my name anywhere, anywhere near this thing.
Uh, so I boldly, uh, went where, uh, angels fear to tread, uh, and, and put that thing out, uh, and, um, Byram in parallel put his out.
And I've, I've since met and spent time with Byram and he tells the story Uh, up in Canada that, uh, he was scared silly of what I was going to say.
He thought I was this big, intimidating, nasty guy and I was going to tear him to shreds.
And when I basically piped up on the, on the zoom call that we had over this and said, Byron, I agree with everything you've said.
Plus there's these other things.
He was completely relieved, but that's, that's how that came to be is, is that's how I ended up being one of the first, if not the first to me and Byron, at least.
To really break the story that the regulatory package that Pfizer had submitted was grossly inadequate.
That set off a cascade of me talking to Peter Marks and, you know, at that point I was still assuming that the FDA was acting in good faith.
And my core assumption was that Pfizer had pulled a fast one on the FDA, that the FDA didn't have sufficient scientific expertise To understand what they were looking at.
They couldn't possibly!
unidentified
There's no way this could get through the FDA!
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
The only way I could imagine would be if the people that were doing the reviewing just didn't understand what they were looking at.
And so I offered my help to Peter Marks and said, you know, I understand all this tech, and he basically told me to go pound sand, and that another body of data had been submitted by Pfizer, and he'd reviewed that, And he actually asked me to be quiet about my concerns to give him time to disclose what was in this new Pfizer dossier, which we now know the FDA and Pfizer tried to withhold from the public for 75 years until the courts forced them to.
And so basically I got lied to by Peter Marks, but that now in retrospect shouldn't surprise me.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
What's so fascinating about this, beyond the science that's obviously fascinating, is that you're sort of laying out the story of your red-pilling, in essence, because every step of the way here, there's some regulatory commission or some sort of censorious outlet that's kind of stopping you, or that even there, you still are saying you had this belief that the FDA would stop it.
So when did you realize that it sort of seemed like the entire machinery was either broken or, my words, just outright negligent?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Uh, that's a, that's a good question.
Um, as the adverse events piled up and, and I, I'm vaccine injured.
Uh, I took the jab.
I took Moderna when the, um, uh, National Guard was deploying it here in central Virginia.
I was scheduled for a talk in France, and I knew I couldn't go if I didn't take the jab.
And I had long COVID, and there was a whole lot of press that long COVID could benefit from taking the jab.
We now know that's a lie.
But, you know, more propaganda.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
How skeptical were you?
I mean, knowing that you had had COVID, okay, you had long COVID, but you had done research, I mean, how skeptical were you?
I get you wanna go to France, but.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
About the jab, so I had, number one, In good faith, I'd assumed that my colleagues that I had known for decades must have had... Another part of the story that we didn't cover is that Jill and I worked on this tech for over a decade in academia, at California Regional Private Research Center, at Bounce Labs, at U Maryland, and we abandoned it because we could never overcome the toxicity.
And we have multiple other patents.
I mean, this wall behind me is all patents.
Multiple other patents for different cationic lipids, different formulations.
We published the first stuff on use of cholesterol, which is in these formulations.
And early on, I called up the guy at University of British Columbia, Peter Cullis, who I'd known for quite a while.
Who was the one that had really made the breakthroughs to enable this version that was being deployed.
And I had faith that they had solved those problems that we had not been able to solve.
So I was still operating assuming that they had overcome the things that had bedeviled us.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
That's a heck of a leap of faith, huh?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Well, I think it's reasonable.
I mean, you can assume that people are nefarious, or you can assume that people are generally good.
And I prefer to assume that people are generally good.
Although, I gotta say, the last three years, that's taken a pretty hard hit.
But I still approach the world with an open heart.
I try hard to.
And I try hard to have faith in my fellow man, and I employ the three strikes rule, generally speaking.
It takes three strikes for me to say, I just don't want to deal with that person again.
So yeah, I extended trust to my former colleagues, believing that they must have had the breakthrough that they asserted that they had had.
And obviously in retrospect, they had convinced themselves as a community of a number of things such as minor modifications in the structure of the positively charged fat would lead to formulations which would target specific organ systems or tissues.
And so they had published and it was believed in the field that These modified versions, and in my lab we built hundreds of different cationic lipid compounds and tested them.
At Genzyme, they tested thousands or tens of thousands when they were trying to get agents to treat cystic fibrosis.
So I knew how the game was played and the literature suggested that there'd been some kind of serendipitous magic findings.
That if you use this structure and you injected it, it would only go to the lymph nodes and it would stay there.
And you'll recall that's what we were all told.
And yet, that wasn't true.
It was clearly not true based on the Pfizer data package that Byron Bridle had obtained.
So, you know, when you're in, you know, you spent your whole career working in an area.
You have all these relationships with people.
Professional relationships.
To break out of that and say, oh, you know, all these things I thought were this way were wrong.
And for me, so I not only had that on kind of a micro level in this little bubble of this technology, but I think we've all had that.
Those of us that are awake have had that same experience about our government, media, military, all, you know, Globalism, you know, I knew the World Health Organization was corrupt as the day is long because I'd been there a number of times and spoken and dealt with them.
But the scope of what we've been dealing with, I think for all of us, pretty much, at least I had assumed that the world was a very different place and that people acted with integrity, generally speaking.
I wrote an essay about this on Substack where I talked about peeling off layers of naivete And I'm still not sure I've peeled off all the layers of my diet.
unidentified
I'm sure there's more to go, but.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
There's always another layer.
There's always another layer.
So all of this is happening, and now you're being red-pilled because you're seeing it through not only colleagues, but you're seeing it through the regulatory commission, you're seeing it through the media.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
And I've experienced it myself, okay.
On JAB 2, I developed hypertension to 230 systolic, and POTS, and dark elepsy, and restless leg, and you know,
all those at the time were not cataloged as adverse events, but we now know that they are.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So I saw a clip of you on Twitter a few weeks ago that no longer exists, but I saw it with
my own eyes, so unless it was a deep fake, I saw it.
It was not from your account, it was from someone else's account, where in essence what you were saying was, and clean this up for me if I'm getting it slightly wrong, that basically some level of the mRNA vaccine is sort of like a low-grade HIV, in that it is degrading people's immune systems, it's hitting the T-cells, so now other dormant viruses are now popping up.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
So that was, that's not a deep... I don't know that I used the reference to AIDS, only if I did it would be a reference to an autoimmune, or I'm sorry, an immunodeficiency syndrome.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yes, you made a point of differentiating between HIV and AIDS.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Yes, so acquired immunodeficiency syndrome is what the, and so if you do something, you know, you're in a state and then something happens and you become more immunodeficient, you've acquired an immunodeficiency syndrome, right?
So that's the tie-in.
AIDS is actually a big basket into which you can throw all kinds of things.
So, early on, just as the clinical trials were still progressing, and then at the very earliest time when they started deploying this, it became clear that one of the adverse, there was two in particular that were popping up.
that my buddies at the FDA, who were outside of the review branch, that I was having weekly Zooms with, said were being flagged.
And I was hearing it popping up from other physicians.
One was myocarditis, which the FDA and the CDC denied, and the Israelis denied.
That's a story.
And how that finally came became public.
And the other one was reactivation of latent DNA viruses, shingles being a notable example.
And so there's a number of these large herpes-like DNA viruses that exist in our bodies for most of us.
Cytomegalovirus is another one.
Epstein-Barr virus is a major one.
And Generally, your T-cells keep these guys, you can think of it as Pandora's box, keeps the lid shut by, you know, T-cell suppression.
And if you pull that suppression off, the top pops open and all the nasties fly out of Pandora's box, I think is a good way to think about these latent DNA viruses.
And it was clear that that was happening after the jab.
It's one of the major It appears now to be one of the major causes of the kind of shorter term, short to intermediate term, long COVID symptoms, particularly Epstein Barr virus.
So that's what I was referring to.
Now, fast forward to yesterday, the day before, when Veritas dropped this third video, From Dr. Walker, I assume now formerly of Pfizer, worldwide director of mRNA vaccine or mRNA strategies, in which he talks about the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis.
What he's basically saying there is that Pfizer believes that the Menstrual irregularities are really kind of the tip of the iceberg and that this thing is damaging a fundamental aspect of your endocrine system.
Your endocrine system controls your energy, controls your sex drive.
It controls all kinds of development.
It controls your mental state, whether you're depressed or excited or whatever.
It controls your digestion.
I mean, your endocrine system is hugely important.
Endocrine abnormalities can be associated with cardiac problems and they are absolutely endocrine fluctuations impact on your immune function.
So now we have, in addition to the huge laundry list we already had of potential causes in terms of the pathophysiology for why we're seeing these immunologic suppression Phenotypes, particularly the more people get jabbed.
But now we have another one, which is the damage to the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis.
unidentified
So where are we at right now?
I mean, everything you're saying is… We are deep in a hole and continuing to dig.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I mean, so I'm not vaxxed.
The two guys that are in this room that work for me are not vaxxed.
One of the reasons I did not get vaxxed was because, first off, I'm relatively young and healthy and take good care of myself, but the more that they pushed, for some reason, that was igniting something in me, and I just could not give in to that.
And you know, the other part, Dr. Malone, was that when they really were pushing this idea of the employer mandates, I kept thinking, well, I don't have 1,000 employees, But even if I did, what right would I have to say to somebody, you have to inject yourself with something to work for me?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, so clearly you are never going to be a major CEO of a large American corporation because you have a conscience.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I suppose that ship has sailed.
I got a couple small businesses.
I'm doing okay.
But having heard everything you've said here, especially these last few minutes, I mean, people have now, some people have gotten five or six jabs.
We know that people are getting shingles and myocarditis, and I have a young friend with heart problems now.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Remember when I was on Rogue and I said those three little words that caused Google and all of Silicon Valley, I like to say, who's black?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I can do it.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Mass formation psychosis.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Mass formation psychosis.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, so a good fraction of the world is hypnotized.
They have succumbed.
So here's how I like to frame this.
Because I'm really trying to focus on healing.
I'm a physician.
I mean, I could have gone into developing nuclear warheads like my dad did, or spy equipment like my father-in-law did.
No, I wanted to go into medicine.
I wanted to heal people.
The whole world has been subjected to three years of military-grade psychological operations That it basically is fifth-generation warfare battlefield tactics that have been deployed, designed for fighting Al-Qaeda, deployed against our own citizens.
unidentified
Okay?
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
So, military-grade PSYOPs, deployed particularly in the Five Eyes countries.
Great Britain, United States, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia.
This spy alliance that is one of the most powerful organizations in the world.
For some reason, those are the countries that seem to have had the most egregious authoritarian responses.
And censorship, etc.
So, everybody has been subjected to military-grade information warfare technology.
And some of us, like yourself, reacted to it and said, oh no, if they're pushing this hard, Can't be good.
I'm out.
Or whatever the reason was that caused people to wake up.
Matthias tells the story that for him it was gradual.
Matthias Desmet, he's been teaching mass formation in the work of Hannah Arendt and Gustave Le Bon.
He's a professor.
This is what he teaches.
And he didn't realize at first.
It kind of gradually dawned on him as things were going along.
He said, holy moly!
Well, that's not what he said, but you get the picture.
What's happening is exactly what I've been teaching and it's underneath my nose and I didn't even realize it.
So, my point is, everybody has been subjected to this.
Something like 15-25% of people We're resistant to it, or woke up.
And the rest, for whatever reason, were not able to fight off the psychological warfare that was deployed against them.
Should we hate them?
Or should we say, you know, first off, we can kind of pat ourselves on the back a little bit.
Good boy!
You resisted the PSYOPs!
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
That's nice for a day or two.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
But I argue, you know, and this does not apply, let's say, gently to Tony Fauci and Jacinda Arden and Justin Trudeau and Rochelle Walensky and, you know, we can go on and on with the names, Tedros.
I'm not saying those folks, but for the folks that you meet in the grocery store that are still wearing face nozzles.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
The people who got duped.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
And who are putting face nozzles on their little kids and everything.
And even the ones that said just ugly, ugly stuff.
You know, they were so wrapped up in the tribalism that they said some pretty nasty things and some pretty nasty policies.
Oh, you can't have a heart transplant if you don't take the jab.
Or, you know, people that haven't taken the jab should be allowed to die.
Or they should be put into camps.
Or, you know, we can go on and on with the ugly, ugly stuff that was said.
I argue that for the most part, those poor souls were victims of a psychological warfare campaign that was deployed on them.
And if we think of it that way, we might be able to open our hearts to them.
And if we don't open our hearts, we can't bring them over to our side.
We can never convince them by hating them.
And we need them.
We need the persuadable middle.
If we're going to win this, we're going to not have to live under the thumb of Klaus Schwab and all of his minions.
We need each other.
We don't need to be split apart.
So that's my preaching on the propaganda and Fifth generation warfare story that has, you know, all of us have been subjected to.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
It's kind of nice.
I mean, you spent your life trying to heal through science, and now you're trying to heal through, I suppose, something that's a little more spiritual, perhaps.
I should probably end it there, but I do want to ask you one more thing, because that does feel like the sort of positive ending.
But now, having all of this said, how worried are you that millions, I don't know how many hundreds of millions of people throughout the world have taken this vaccine, We're seeing the vaccine injuries.
Many people have taken, you know, the fifth booster or whatever it might be.
And that the litany of health problems that we're going to see and then what could be emotional problems and all of the other stuff that we're just at the beginning, basically, of the damage of this stuff.
That almost has nothing to do with COVID itself.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
So you didn't finish the sentence.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
How worried are you about... Oh, so you're saying... How worried are you that we're at the beginning of finding out what really the repercussions of the vaccines... I'm not worried.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
I know it to be true.
That's a fact.
You know, I tour with folks like Ryan Cole.
As Ryan says, the cells don't lie.
What he sees on his glass slide isn't fake.
It's not a deep fake.
And the cancers are popping up.
There's a lot of things going on here and now this hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis issue.
Dr. Walker, in a moment of clarity, in his own twisted way, in that last video, basically gave us a pre-read on the situation.
He said, can you imagine, I'm paraphrasing, if there's widespread global damage and we've damaged the whole next generation.
And his response to that was, I would have to take Pfizer off my resume.
The violin It is microscopic that I'm going to have to play for that, but be that as it may, even Dr. Walker recognizes that the disruption in the fabric of civil society will be huge.
Cause I traveled over 400,000 miles last year on commercial air and then privates also.
A lot of time, seeing a lot of people.
And unfortunately it's not slowing down this year.
I wish it was.
Um, uh, and, um, there is a deep anger right now.
It is, it is, I often refer to Yates, uh, second coming and the slouching beast towards Bethlehem.
There is a louching beast is out there and things could get very, very ugly.
And we absolutely do not need violence.
It will be met with overwhelming force.
It's absolutely not what we need right now, but A lot of people are really, really angry and they're getting angrier.
And meanwhile, Pfizer and the governments and the World Health Organization and the WEF are all digging in and they kind of are in our face, basically, like I say, telling us to go pound sand.
You know, Justin Trudeau, et cetera.
So, you know, New Zealand, those poor souls.
They finally get out under Jacinda Arden and they get somebody who's even worse.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
It's just incredible.
And they're a tiny island that could have dealt with this in a completely, completely different way.
So give me something.
Look, we could do this.
First off, you're welcome to come back anytime to amplify anything that you want to talk about in the future, of course.
But try to help me end this in a way that's gonna give people a little positivity.
I mean, we had to sort of reach out to your neighbor, but yeah.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
I'm gonna do the book pump thing.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, let's do it.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Lies my government told me and the better future coming.
What better future?
What the heck is he talking about?
What I hear all over the world is the emergence of a belief that there is a path forward that can potentially enable us to fulfill more of our potential as a human species in a world that rather than becoming this centralized totalitarian I argue fascist, or we can call it corporatist if you want to use nice, nice words.
Marxist, utilitarian, fourth industrial revolution, transhumanism world that the World Economic Forum wants to shape and thrust on us.
There is another way in its movement towards Uh, networks of decentralized communities, which in a way is what those, those rich white guys 250 years ago came up with, you know, they were pretty smart.
They did a whole lot of thinking and reading, uh, and they were trying to solve a problem.
That's not so different from the one we face right now, only on a smaller scale.
And, uh, I think they came up with some pretty good stuff.
In the form of the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the whole idea of a federalist government in which the nation state has very limited powers and authority and responsibility for things like external defense and regulating interstate commerce.
I think what we all, what I hear, except for the monopolists, you know, I can't speak for Bill Gates, but for the likes of you and I, What I hear again and again is people just kind of want to be left alone to live their lives and not told what to do and not told that they have to, you know, have digital ideas attached to their carbon credits and, you know, forced to have a social credit score in order to get a mortgage or buy a car or whatever the hell.
unidentified
We just, you know, Guys, just leave us alone.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Let us teach our own kids, don't force, we would not even go there, all this other garbage on our children, right?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, that's a whole other topic.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Just leave us alone.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I have a feeling I know your feelings.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
And allow us to live in a world in which we can trade and engage in transactions with each other Uh, for goods and services, um, and, uh, live our lives.
And I'm told, you know, so that's one of the big focuses of the book.
It's things like, you know, start a victory garden, et cetera.
And some practical things about what you can do about our federal government right now, what's ongoing and what Trump tried to do that I think was, there was a bunch of good that Trump tried to do.
Uh, um, he's, he's, uh, unfortunately he can't control certain aspects of his personality.
But he did a lot of good, and he had a lot of good ideas about the government and about the administrative state.
And I'm not sure, I think personally, that we've had, these guys have been planning this since World War II, and arguably even earlier than that.
And we're not going to turn this around In the next two years.
We may not turn it around during our generation, but I think it's a worthwhile fight to fight for the sake of our children.
And, and I think we can, there is a, there's something out there on the horizon of a better way for humanity to really fulfill its potential by being able to work Cooperatively, but not in a way that's from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs.
And I think that's the better future.
I think we can go there.
I think we can build towards it in an incremental way.
And the phrase that's often used is intentional communities.
And if you're a fan of Enrand, You may or may not have noticed the name of my substack, who is Robert Malone, which is direct reference to John Galt.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I'm in Galt's Gulch over here in Florida.
I shouldn't have said that, but there you go.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
And I consider our little 50 acres here to be our own personal Galt's Gulch.
So I think that what you're expressing is that you already Have your mind wrapped around the idea of small intentional communities and the value that they bring.
And I think we have to build a new system kind of organically within this larger superstructure that's basically going to collapse around our ears in the next few years and hope that we can weather the storm and come out the other side and we can be the examples for, you know, a new way forward rather than this, uh, You know, Terminator, Matrix.
I mean, how many times do we have to see those movies?
unidentified
Okay.
Terminator, Matrix, Minority Report, Idiocracy.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
It's all there.
Dr. Malone, you ended it beautifully.
I appreciate it.
And as I often say to my audience, I have nothing better to do than save the world.
I suspect you don't either.
So enjoy your 50 acres.
And as I said, anytime you want something amplified, please reach out and we'll help as much as we can.
dr robert malone ▲ ● ▼
Thank you.
Thanks for the time spent and look forward to our next chat.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
If you're looking for more honest and thoughtful conversations about politics instead of mindless dribble, check out our politics playlist.
And if you want to watch full interviews on a variety of topics, watch our full episode playlist, all right over here.
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