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Jan. 24, 2023 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
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Is This the Future of Higher Education & College? | Stephen Blackwood | ACADEMIA | Rubin Report
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stephen blackwood
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Speaker Time Text
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Honestly, I think many, many people would be far better off not going to university at all.
And I think it's an important point for me to make because here I am part of a team founding a new college.
It might make it seem like I think college is the answer.
I think, by and large, most, if not most, Very, very many people can and should and will lead higher and better and more beautiful lives by not going to college.
And we need to remember that, right?
We don't want to become a place that somehow thinks we're all just minds, or that everyone has a mind that is good at thinking about this.
We have people who are in the true diversity of the human race.
We need people who are doing many different kinds of things and most of them, by the way, don't involve going to
college.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I'm Dave Rubin and we are at the local studio here in Miami and I am joined by Stephen Blackwood,
the co-founder and president of Ralston College in Savannah, Georgia.
Stephen, we're almost dressed exactly the same.
It's nice to see you.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Good to be here.
Thank you.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So we did, we've only done one show together in my many, many years of interviewing people.
So I want to talk about Ralston College, a place of actual Learning from what I understand and Jordan Peterson's intimately involved in what you guys are doing So I know this will be interesting to my audience.
So first off Give me a one-minute bio on you how you ended up starting this place and then we'll talk about what's going on over there Gosh, well, in some sense I'm just a farm boy who discovered big ideas and the difference that education can make in my life and that I believe can make in the lives of many.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
The role it plays in a culture.
So I had my own trajectory educationally.
I studied philosophy and classics, worked in the inner city for a while, lived abroad, did a PhD in Atlanta at Emory University.
And basically, sort of with the other founders of the college, sort of surveyed the landscape of higher education, in which there are many, let's say, chronic and systemic problems.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
That would be one way of putting it.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Well, you know, let's maybe understate rather than overstate.
But yeah, let's say that the problems are serious.
But rather than being focused on the problems, we thought, well, maybe we can do something positive.
What could we do?
It's always easy to kind of bitch and complain about things.
And frankly, I think there's too much of that in our world generally.
And so we thought, well, let's see if we can do something better, more beautiful, more wonderful, more transformative for students.
And that was essentially the impetus.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So how you got on my radar was Jordan Peterson said to me, do you know this Stephen Blackwood guy?
Do you know what's going on at Ralston?
You are here, actually, in Miami right now because you're doing the biblical series with Jordan.
You're about to finish it up this afternoon before we do all the Ralston stuff and education and all that.
Can you just talk about the biblical series and what that's been like being with these cast of characters?
Shapiro's been there and Prager and a whole bunch of great thinkers.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Well, I mean, I think this is a really interesting phenomenon, frankly.
As everyone knows, Dr. Peterson, one of his first really big works was a series of lectures he gave on the book of Genesis.
And I think the story is he just thought that maybe it was possible that this kind of perennial text that people have been reading for, you know, More than 2,000 years.
Was there a way it might speak to a wide audience if he just gave it his best shot at trying to make sense of it?
And I think the story was that he just booked a theater for 16 nights or something and it sold out.
And I think there's actually quite an important moment in Dr. Peterson's own It's a pretty simple formula, in a way.
what his own, you might say, what his own vocation is and what the work of our time
is.
And to put that, I can't speak for him, of course, but I think it's a pretty simple
formula in a way.
There are all kinds of wonderful treasures, things figured out in the past, great books,
works of art, ways of understanding, cultural, let's say, cultural wisdom that is just there.
It's just there.
I mean it's, you know, we're not living in a place, we're not actually, the situation is not that we're in a desert or we're at the beginning of time and nothing's ever been done and we've got to figure out how to do it all.
The situation is as if everyone's hungry and you're told there's nothing to eat, there's no food, it's just that we're in a famine.
But actually you go over here and you open this door over here and There's the biggest, most beautiful feast ever known to man, all here, anything you could imagine, the most beautifully prepared and gorgeously grown produce and so on and so forth.
You see, I don't belabor the metaphor, but the point I'm making is that in fact, we've got this, you could change this to think we have no beauty and say, well actually look at all these amazing things.
So the point is a simple one.
It is that I think the Exodus seminar has been born of a very simple insight.
And that is that these works that human beings have found transformatively insightful to make sense of their own
lives for 2,000, 3,000 years, that they can still speak today.
And rather than simply tell people what they're about, what happens if we just have a conversation about it?
Does that come alive in a way that it then comes alive for us?
And my experience in this last week and a half, week or so that we've been here, is that this conversation, which I would say has very low to no levels of ego, Which is sincerely just trying to figure out this amazing text and see what we can understand about it has been a really beautiful and memorable experience and it's a very interesting thing to note, Dave, that there appears to be a wide audience of people who are hungry for that kind of
non-instrumental, not reductively political, richly expansive, deep content that says something
to them but what the nature of human life is.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
To bring that metaphor into everything that's going on in the world today, I mean it sort
of feels to me like we've been wandering in the desert with a lot of lies, a lot of untruths,
half-truths, a lot of confusion.
But there does seem to be a promised land on the other side of that, where people are seriously talking about how to rebuild things, how to get us to that land where there is goodness and all those things.
What's your role specifically at the table?
Because everyone sort of has a little bit of their own expertise, right?
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, I think that's right.
My background really is in philosophy and theology.
I'm a kind of history of ideas, what are the fundamental questions kind of person, but I would say in this seminar I've found myself turning again and again to ask the kind of almost personal question, you know, what does this say to me right now?
I suppose I think that's, in a way, the big question.
I'm also aware that on the Daily Wire Plus, there's going to be a lot of people listening to this, not simply for, let's say, academic or scholarly reasons.
They're trying to figure out their lives, just as I'm trying to figure out mine, and we all are.
And so I think what I've tried to do, at least, is trying to approach things from that angle.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Alright, so let's bring that conversation, this wandering in the desert we all seem to be doing, to why you would start a co-found school.
I mean, a lot of it is because the information is all nonsensical, right?
Everyone in the world seems to be wandering in that desert academically and there aren't Well, I think it's very important.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
I think, actually, Exodus does give us really fundamental language of the landscape of our own experience, right?
We all, in some sense, are living in states of longing or, you might say, the desert, a place where we're trying to find our way, we're confused, we're battering around, we're lonely, we're alienated, whatever.
We've got our personal issues and so on.
And then the question is, well, how do you How do you make sense out of that?
And that, I think, is, in a way, what the Book of Exodus is itself, at least taken historically by peoples of various faiths, to be a kind of revelation about how one can move from that state.
And it doesn't come down just to ourselves, by the way, either.
But relative to education and the founding of Rawlston College, I think what I'd say is a couple things.
First is, you know, at a big sort of systemic cultural level, I think we've got to be really honest with ourselves and say, right now the West generally, certainly the United States and any other country I know, which is by and large the countries of North America and Europe principally, We do not now have the mechanisms of transmission for our own culture, right?
So let's take the Constitution of the United States, or the forms of building things that are beautiful, or the forms of ritual that have defined life.
In profound ways, these have been eroded, or degraded, or abandoned, or forgotten.
And one cannot overstate what a problem that is.
You cannot have a culture Without mechanisms of transmission of that culture, right?
It's like imagine if you're French or German or whatever.
If you stop speaking that language, right, it's gone within a generation.
And so, all a culture really is, is a kind of, the late philosopher Sir Roger Scruton put it beautifully, he said, in a way a culture is just the things we have loved.
But, you know, The only way something that we have loved gets transmitted is by teaching someone else to love it too.
And right now, instead of a kind of, not slavish obedience, but humble openness and respect to the past, it has been replaced in many respects with ignorance or antagonism or this was just a history of oppression.
This is a profoundly insidious way of regarding all of the things that human beings up until now could teach us if we would just listen.
So I make that general point about the systemic thing because I want to be very clear that This is not kind of window dressing or, oh, we could kind of have this or have it that way.
I'm talking about the most fundamental reality of the world in which we live and the very conditions of human flourishing as they've been understood in the United States and in the West.
I would say those have been or are forgotten in fundamental ways.
The next thing I would say is, well, you can have this sort of analysis that, you know, There are problems in this field or this field or that domain or in this industry or whatever.
Even a good grasp on the problems, like a good kind of critical understanding, that only takes you so far because you can't build out of a negative vision.
You can't build out of criticism.
So I often give the example, I make no bones about the fact that I don't like brutalist architecture.
I think it's ugly.
I think it's soul-destroying.
I think it's alienating.
It has no way in to understand yourself.
It's kind of demeaning rather than elevating.
Not liking brutalist architecture allows you to build exactly zero buildings that are different, right?
You've got to say, well, you know, I'm for, you know, a certain vision of proportion and symmetry and so on.
So, you know, what we're trying to do is something positive.
And that positive, I want to just say, the third point I want to make is, you know, you can talk about systems, you can talk about positive vision and everything, but you know what?
At the end of the day, this comes down to individuals.
And, you know, the way you transmit a culture is by By giving something beautiful, a form of deeper and richer self-understanding to an individual.
And that, you might say, is meant to be what the heart, the core activity of Raulston College is about, about giving something transformative in a free and beautiful, non-instrumental, non-coercive way to help people contend with the most fundamental human questions.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
And that takes various forms.
Are you surprised that more schools aren't doing this or abjected their duty to do this
or just, or is it obvious because it was the end of all of what we now call woke that these
ideas got so into all of the schools that it's pretty obvious they were all going to
end up this way and that you'd have to start a school like this?
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Well, I think it's, you know, I'll just say very quickly two things.
The first is that You know, this is a multifactorial problem, you know, there's a long history, and you can talk about the vocationalization of the university that is partly to do with trying to educate a much wider swath of our country and culture, and that's a noble instinct, but it's also kind of shifted the university towards more, I don't know, more marketing and less art history or something like that.
And so that's a question.
And then you've got the whole student loan crisis, you know, the way the federal government
is radically distorting these things and not only leading to inflation and things like
that, but essentially there's no normal market corrective on a poor product because the federal
governments would just give anyone anything they want to study at university.
It's a disaster.
It's where you have way too many people going to get degrees that are often not worth the
paper they're printed on or not finished or whatever.
You should look at the completion rates.
It's unbelievable nationally.
And then, you know, you've got- How bad are they?
I can't give you a- I don't want to do it- misspeak, but there are many places in which
dropout rates are well over 50.
I think I'm not misspeaking to say well over 50%, or incompletion rates.
That's to say, people not finishing the degree they started.
But they still have a loan for the money that they spent on the time that they don't get degrees.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Ironically, with some of the stuff they're learning, it's probably not the worst thing, not finishing.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Honestly, I think many, many people would be far better off not going to university at all.
And I think it's an important point for me to make because here I am part of a team founding a new college.
It might make it seem like I think college is the answer.
I think by and large most, if not most, very, very many people can and should and will lead higher and better and more beautiful lives by not going to college.
And we need to remember that, right?
We don't want to become a place that somehow thinks we're all just minds, or that everyone
has a mind that is good at thinking about this.
We have people who are in the true diversity of the human race.
We need people who are doing many different kinds of things.
And most of them, by the way, don't involve going to college.
All that is to say that in what we're doing, we're seeking to be grounded fundamentally
in a positive vision.
relative to this historic arc of what's gone wrong in higher education.
You can analyze this from any number of different ways.
There's the woke and the ideology and the politicization of education.
It's a huge problem.
And whether it is inevitable, I think actually yes it is.
I think there is no continuity without sort of birth and rebirth.
And you can look at any industry, anytime, anywhere.
And I think in the higher education in the United States, if you want to really get into it, These problems are not new.
I mean, you can go back to, you know, it's kind of an ur-text for many, you know, small-c conservatives, is William F. Buckley's God and Man at Yale.
It's written in 1950 or 51 or 52.
It's very early 50s.
That's 70 years ago.
You can look at the most famous book in this regard is Alan Bloom's Closing of the American Mind, written in 1985.
I mean, that's a long time ago.
And you say, well, what have we done in this time?
And I think, broadly speaking, people thought, well, we can kind of reform from within.
And I think we should never give up on a great institution.
It would be nihilism to give up on something that has been meaningful and could still be meaningful.
But at the same time, I think we have to admit that that strategy has been an abysmal failure.
Because during the time in which we've been supposedly trying to do things internally, I would say the situation with universities has gotten far worse in that time than better.
And so the point is finally to say that, you know, I think the current situation is like the one I gave with the example of hunger.
Because, let me just ask you whether you would agree with this.
Because you speak to a lot of people, you have a good sense of the pulse of a whole generation of people, multiple generations.
I would put it to you that the average 15 to 25 year old When they're, or 30 year old, whatever you want to say, when they're trying to make sense of life, and they're like, oh gosh, you know, dealing with cancer, or death, or suffering, or depression, or my addiction, or whatever.
I'm trying to make sense of my life in the deepest way.
Like the thing that matters the most to all of us is like, can we live a life that we regard as worth living?
Right?
There is no more important question for human beings than that.
I would put it to you that at the top of the list of the places that they would look is not the university.
unidentified
No!
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
And what that means is that the place that should be, one of the most obvious places you turn, the repository of all human learning and the humanities, which are nothing but the record of what other human beings have thought about their lives in the past, which is one of the key sources to try and understand our lives, the point I'm making is that the industry, Broadly speaking, higher education has taken such a wrong turn that the thing it should be most known for, people don't even turn to it for.
It'd be like the last place you turned to fill up your car was a gas station because they no longer had any gas.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
It almost seems like it's the complete reverse, actually.
It's the 180.
It's not that it's just slightly missing or they veered off slightly.
They actually give you none of those tools.
They teach you a whole other set of things that have very little to do with the lessons
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
of the past.
In many places, sadly, I think that is true.
You may end up worse off intellectually, spiritually, morally by having your mind corrupted by a
certain kind of very downward-looking, cynical nihilism that really—and I don't think
I can say this strongly enough because I'm not a political or instrumental thinker—I
think we know that there are ideas that are really toxic for your soul.
And they lead to bad places psychologically, relationally, intellectually.
That's a bad place to be.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So, when a student comes to Ralston, and you guys have a grad program right now, right?
And this is where you just went to Greece with a whole, how many kids did you go with?
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Our first class, we opened admissions this year, our first program is a one-year intensive Master's in the Humanities, so it's kind of like an intensive boot camp going through the history of the West.
It started with two full months of intensive study in Greece of Greek, so it was kind of boot camp in language learning meets the Grand Tour.
It was.
Amazing.
A full two months we started in Athens, then a month in Samos, the island of Samos, a trip to Constantinople, Istanbul, and then the last three weeks in partnership with the Harvard Center for Hellenic Studies in Nafplio in the Peloponnese.
So yes, we had a really intensive on the ground encounter in the place in which the ideas
and ideals, you might say, originated in the West, in the language in which they originated.
And it's no mistake that philosophy, theology, astronomy, biology, these are all Greek words,
right?
So it's not just a kind of historical, that's kind of interesting.
It's like, these are the categories of thought, categories of what does it mean to be free,
what does it mean to be autonomous?
There's another Greek word, self-ruling.
That's where it starts.
So there's a real sense in which Greece and the language of Greek has always been kind
of like a source, like a well that perennially enables us, if we attend to it, just as many
other things, history of religion and other.
I'm not saying it's all about Greece all the time, but it's a core aspect of Western culture
since its earliest days in the fifth century BC.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I did see the movie 300, and I'm pretty sure that's why they were always taking out Athens,
Well, they were pretty pissed at these people who had ideas and were doing good things and spreading freedom.
I mean, I'm half kidding, actually, but not fully.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
No, I don't.
I think if the battle, if the war against the battle against the Persians had gone differently, the various famous battles, the Greeks had no business winning, right?
It's like, you know, these massive forces of the empire descending on.
There's a little group of kind of this band of citizens who just said, give me freedom or give me death.
If that, if they had not won those battles, There would have been.
I think we can say confidently there would have been no Western culture.
The ideas and ideas of Greece would not have made it out into a wider sphere.
That wouldn't have been, you might say, the seeds that laid the groundwork for the whole Roman Empire.
They were the seeds that transformed the Christian revelation.
They were the seeds in some respects.
They were the ideas through which Frankly, all of the religions of the book, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, at certain points in history, have all been reading their books, their holy books, their Bibles, through the lens of Greek philosophy, and the categories of thought we were just talking about.
So, the point I'm making is that you cannot really overstate how influential that moment is, because it is kind of the, in a significant way, it is, if not the, one of the sources from which the whole, you might say, trunk and tree of what we now call Western culture grows.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So you bring these students there, and you were telling me the other night a little bit about the rigorous process to just get in the program in the first place.
But so they go there, they learn about the humanities, they get the keys to this great knowledge.
Are most of them thinking about what they're going to do after?
Because one of the mess questions I get on this show all the time when we do Q&As, I get from parents who are like, first off, they're very leery of sending their kids to college in the first place.
Then the second question is, where do I send them?
And the third thing is, is anything that they're going to learn there going to equip them to be out in the real world?
If you're teaching kids all about the humanities, it's wonderful in terms of a full life, but are they thinking about what they want to do after, or is it almost not that important yet, in some regard?
unidentified
Well, I think... Because you're going just purely for knowledge, it sounds.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, I think this raises a really interesting question, Dave, because I think we have to think really honestly about what is useful, frankly.
And I would begin, my starting position would be, What matters the most to a human being has got to be, at some level, what they regard as most important.
And that's what enables them to have that perhaps most useful.
And I really would put it as a fundamental contention that there is nothing that matters more to human beings.
We're self-conscious creatures.
We don't just live as automata.
We think about ourselves.
We value things.
We feel bad when we do things that we think we shouldn't have done.
We have hopes and dreams.
We love beauty.
We gather in community.
What I would say is there is nothing more important than giving a human being the tools for them to regard their own life as meaningful.
And that doesn't come down to simply material things.
I mean, you can have all the material wealth and success in the world and be...
feel like you are poor inside, that you can not have the relationships, that no one gets to the
deathbed saying, oh gosh, I wish I just made a little more money. I mean,
they get to the deathbed saying, you know, they're still thinking about things like, why did
I never reconcile with my brother and how could I have done so?
And so I really want to explode this idea that the humanities are somehow,
and I'm not saying you should test it, but as if there's somehow this
recherche thing, oh...
Oh, you know, imagine an English accent or something like, you know, we're at a cocktail party talking about something that no one gives a damn about.
No, I'm talking about the fundamental questions.
Truth, justice, love, beauty, forgiveness.
How do these things work?
What are they?
And that's the bedrock.
And so I'd say that, but then it also says something more practical towards your question, which is, It's easy to think that the best way to do something practical is practical.
And in fact, this is a really interesting thing about the humanities.
If you subordinate them to a practical instrumental outcome, like I said, I'm going to read Shakespeare because it'll help me to teach marketing.
It'll help me to learn how to sell razors or something.
It's going to fall through your hands like sand.
You're not going to have anything left because you're never going to get anything out of Shakespeare if you read him that way.
Whereas if you really attend to this amazing understanding of the human condition, you really get into that.
Well, you know, that may make you quite powerful when you start thinking about what motivates people, how do we speak to people, and I'm not saying it's going to help you sell a million razors, but it very well may.
And so the point I'm making is that if you don't subordinate it practically, it becomes unbelievably powerful.
I mean, let's just be honest about the fact that the kind of education I'm talking about is in fact the education that has basically defined You know, statesmen, politicians, movers and shakers and doers in many respects of our whole history.
So it's actually a very recent idea and I think it's It's profoundly mistaken to think that the way in which you can do something important, even in the real world, is you've got to start by understanding that world fundamentally.
unidentified
Right.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Well, that's why it's so interesting to me that, well, I guess it's interesting but obvious at the same time that Jordan is involved with you guys because the tools that he's always talking about for someone to take their life seriously Well, if you study the humanities honestly and really get an assessment of history and everything else, and then you have a little of the history and the knowledge before you, and then you start doing those things yourself, then I think to your point, in some ways, that is the tool set that you need regardless of what you studied specifically.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
I think that's right.
I think that's completely right.
And I think when you look at, I mean, our students are certainly, they came from tech and from teaching, from the art world.
from a range of both, you might say, pretty hardcore practical to education and so on.
And I think that their careers are likely to be as diverse as that.
But just even to speak as an employer, and I know that as you are, you can't just take
it for granted that someone can write a sentence in our current day and age, right?
But that's...
Speaking as someone who hires people, it's actually very important that you be able to convey not only something grammatical and not riddled with mistakes, but maybe of a certain tone.
Imagine how valuable that is if in your life you're able To be a kind of master of how you present what you say so it can be maximally well taken on by the person you're saying to.
That's about the most useful thing you could have, particularly in a so-called knowledge economy we're living in now.
So I don't want to undersell the really practical side of a rigorous humanities education, but you don't get that if you don't approach it with serious rigor in the first place.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Just a couple more we can do somewhat briefly.
I assume you're getting probably calls every single day from professors who are like, I cannot take this anymore.
Hire me, please.
I mean, is that part of what your job now is?
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Certainly, and we're really looking forward to continuing to add to our team as we expand.
There is a lot of dissatisfaction out there.
We've had, of course, we've had hundreds and hundreds of CVs over the months and the last few years.
And that I think is fundamentally, it's really interesting to ask why that is.
And I think it's because, you know, there's these people that they actually dedicated their lives because they said, you know, I want to I want to be part of this sort of beautiful transmission and opening up the minds of the young to things that will help them.
And often they find themselves in positions in which they don't feel they can speak their mind, they're ostracized by their colleagues or fearful of speaking openly, where they're under pressure to politicize their own classrooms.
And it's just a sort of sorry position to be in where you're not able to Really devote yourself to the higher order things that inspire your own vocation.
And we hope that not only do we look forward to hiring many of those people, but we also hope that in some even small and maybe not so small way that what we're doing, what other new institutions are doing, may play some role in recollecting these other institutions back to what they're all about.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
How hard is it building new institutions?
I mean, I know a little something about building new things on the tech side.
It's tough, and you will get pushback in every possible way you can think of, and a whole bunch that you cannot think of.
But you still do it.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
I think it's very hard, is what I think.
I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's been easy.
Of course, we've been very fortunate to attract a network of support and friendship and people who are behind us.
But that took years to build.
I think it's worth saying that that, I think, is also a symptom of something that's gone very, very badly awry in our country.
I mean, in the 19th century there were, I don't know, there was something like a dozen, 25, if you look at the numbers.
They were starting new colleges and universities at a real clip.
Every few months there was another one.
They're the ones we have now, by the way.
the minute most of them started in the 19th century.
And you've got to ask yourself, you know, what has gone wrong when on some of these
really core issues of what we are as a culture, we've lost the dynamism to recreate and reinvent?
There's a kind of surrender, a kind of capitulation to like, well, what can we do?
And it's kind of like you're on the Titanic, man, and you're saying, well, I guess it's just go down.
I mean, you know, I mean, you see what I'm saying?
It's, it's, I think we, I think we, we need to be able to recover to kind of, it's sort of like remembering yourself.
Like, you know, you're sort of in lethargy or depression or whatever and you remember, you come alive again.
I think that's what we need as a culture.
And I don't think you can do that if you have pessimism and grumbling.
And why would you do that?
Or I've often heard, oh, you could never do that.
And I think, you know what?
Yes, we can.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yes we can.
There was a politician who probably isn't on board all the ideas that you're teaching over there that used to end with less yes we can so that might not be the perfect ending here so instead tell the good people where they can go if they want to find out more and we'll put some links down below.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
Yeah well we'd love to have I'd love to have your listeners check out our website at www.ralston.ac.
Sign up for our newsletter.
We have online lectures and podcasts and various other things.
Our highest hope here, Dave, is not that this is just a place for however many students we grow to have over time, but that it can also be a kind of fellowship for anyone who seeks the truth with courage.
And we would love to have anyone who's listening Join us in that.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Now that I softened you up, you can go talk Bible with Jordan Peterson.
stephen blackwood ▲ ● ▼
All right.
Thanks for having me.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
If you're looking for more honest and thoughtful conversations about academia, check out our academia playlist.
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And if you want to watch full interviews on a variety of topics, watch our full episode playlist, all right over here.
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