June 16, 2021 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
16:17
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
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unidentified
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Unfortunately, my experience in high school was, you know, not the best because I had to race against biological males my entire high school career. | |
| I lost a lot of opportunities because of it. | ||
| I lost four state championships, two honor women awards and countless other opportunities to play | ||
| in advance and medal. | ||
| (upbeat music) | ||
| I'm Dave Rubin and we're gonna be doing something a bit different today. | ||
| Let me give you a little backstory here. | ||
| On May 22nd of this year, USA Today put out an op-ed from Collegiate Track star Chelsea Mitchell about her experiences competing against transgender athletes. | ||
| However, on May 25th, just three days later, the publication changed the word male to transgender throughout her piece, without warning, and called her out for using, quote, hurtful language. | ||
| In an editor's note, the outlet explained that the op-ed was updated to, quote, reflect USA Today's standards and style guidelines. | ||
| We regret that hurtful language was used. | ||
| Today, I'm speaking with the author of that op-ed and her lawyer. | ||
| Please welcome one of the fastest girls in Connecticut, track star Chelsea Mitchell, and her lawyer, who is the general counsel at the Alliance Defending Freedom, Kristen Waggoner. | ||
| Ladies, welcome to the Rubin Report. | ||
|
unidentified
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Thank you. | |
| Thank you. | ||
| All right, so I'm glad to have both of you. | ||
| Kristen, I reached out to you originally when I saw this story on Twitter because it just so fits so many of the things that I've been talking about on this show. | ||
| Chelsea, I'll start with you since you wrote the original piece. | ||
| Well, I guess first, just tell me how you got into track and you enjoy running, right? | ||
| Like that's really what this is all about. | ||
| You want to compete against girls and running. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah, I was an athlete my entire life. | |
| And when I got to high school, I started running track. | ||
| And I kind of quickly realized that I was really good at it. | ||
| And unfortunately, my experience in high school was, you know, not the best because I had to race against biological males my entire high school career. | ||
| I lost a lot of opportunities because of it. | ||
| I lost four state championships, two All-New England Awards, and countless other opportunities to play in advance and medal. | ||
| Right, so when did it start that biological boys, trans girls, were in the races that you were in? | ||
| In girls' races? | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah, my freshman year was when it first started happening. | |
| And was it immediate that they were, like, right out of the gate, they were faster and winning all the races? | ||
|
unidentified
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Right out the gate, they were still placing very high in the state. | |
| I was, when I was a freshman, I placed 7th at the state open in the 100 meters, and one of the biologists came out and placed 3rd, knocking me out of the spot to advance the New England championship. | ||
| Right, so what caused you to write this piece, and then I'll get to sort of where the legal part of this is, and then we'll get Kristen involved. | ||
|
unidentified
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I really just wanted to bring attention to what has been happening in Connecticut because I personally think it's really unfair to have biological males race against biological females because we just cannot keep up with the physical advantage of a male body. | |
| And so I decided to put out my own story out there so that people could understand what was happening and how unfair it was. | ||
| And to be clear, I'm guessing you are not anti-trans in any way. | ||
| Just to put it out there. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So, Kristen, when did you get involved in all of this? | ||
| Well, initially we filed a complaint with the Department of Education. | ||
| That was during the Trump administration in June of 2019. | ||
| And as time continued to pass and we weren't seeing the Department of Ed take substantive action on it, we ended up filing a lawsuit in February of 2020. | ||
| And that was Chelsea's senior year. | ||
| There were some circumstances for her where she was ready to move forward with that and we were glad to assist because there were four state championship titles that she was losing and it was just coming to the end where we needed to get judicial relief and so that's why we filed the lawsuit. | ||
| Right, so Chelsea, what do most people think sort of behind the scenes? | ||
| I sense that there's sort of an activist class and a media class that loves pushing these stories, but the average person that's going to these track events and watching you lose to a biological male probably gets why you're upset about this. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah, I think a lot of people who have seen this happen in Connecticut understand how unfair it is, especially because Yeah, so Kristen, what do you want legally? | |
| that were beating us females by significant margins in these races. | ||
| And it was happening at every single race that we raced against them, we were losing. | ||
| And it was a big difference and everyone can tell that. | ||
| Yeah, so Kristen, what do you want legally? | ||
| What would be right for it to legally happen at this point? | ||
| Well, there are four girls that are in the case in Connecticut. | ||
| Two have graduated and two remain in the Connecticut schools. | ||
| And so for the two that have graduated, including Chelsea and also Selena Sol, those records need to be corrected. | ||
| In this case alone, it's important to realize there were two boys that identified as girls. | ||
| One of those boys competed as a girl three weeks before he decided to move over and compete as a girl. | ||
| And those two boys took 15 different races, championships away from girls during those three seasons. | ||
| So there was a huge impact in Connecticut. | ||
| So we want the records to be set straight. | ||
| And then for the girls that are continuing in this Connecticut system, they need to be assured that there are going to be biological girls competing against each other, and that it's going to be a fair playing field moving forward. | ||
| I suspect I know the answer to this question, but is there any evidence of biological girls transitioning to be boys and then winning in boys sports? | ||
| None that I can think of. | ||
| I mean, I'm sure there may be isolated cases where that's true. | ||
| But what we do know is that when boys transition into the girl sports, there are hundreds, literally hundreds of high school boys that can beat the most elite female runners. | ||
| And they have a 10 to 50% performance gap. | ||
| So when you're just looking at averages alone, a mediocre male athlete will almost always be able to beat an elite female athlete. | ||
| Now, Chelsea, if I was to repeat what Chris had just said right there, somebody would say you're being transphobic. | ||
| Boys and girls, men and women are exactly the same. | ||
| Do you concede that there are some biological differences? | ||
|
unidentified
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Of course there are biological differences between males and females. | |
| That's why we have sex-separated sports. | ||
| I mean, you know, it's kind of hard for you to just put a biological male in the female category and say that it's not an issue. | ||
| When I know how so many boys in the school could easily beat me, and they would not win the state championship if they were in the boy category. | ||
| Right, so what would you prefer that those trans athletes do? | ||
| Should they have their own division altogether, or you would just prefer that, okay, you were born male, you should just be competing with the boys regardless of how you feel about yourself, something like that? | ||
|
unidentified
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I think the most important thing right now is to protect the female category and make sure that us males are having a fair competition. | |
| And I think that should be the number one priority. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Kristen, what do you make of USA Today switching some of the language here? | ||
| I mean, once you submit an op-ed, you know, Chelsea wrote a piece that was honest and heartfelt. | ||
| And then suddenly, it's not just that they're changing language. | ||
| The implication is somehow that what Chelsea was saying was somehow hateful. | ||
| It was shocking to us. | ||
| I mean, we write op-eds all the time. | ||
| Our clients are writing op-eds. | ||
| And we can't think of any other instance in the 30-year history we've been involved in public interest law where they have felt like they could change what someone else wrote without even advance notice. | ||
| Like, we didn't get a call that said, hey, just want you to know. | ||
| This just happened. | ||
| And it's just, it's shocking in terms of the lack of journalistic integrity. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Well, is there any legal recourse you can take with them on that? | ||
| I mean, the idea that they changed it three days later, implying that somehow the policy changed as if they didn't read it in the first place. | ||
| There probably is, but I don't know that we're as interested in that as making sure that the public knows that this language isn't appropriate, that what USA Today has done isn't right, and winning this case for our girls. | ||
| I mean, girls should have equal opportunities, the same opportunities that their brothers have, and they need to be authentic and real. | ||
| And that can't happen when male-bodied athletes are competing in the girls category. | ||
| Chelsea, can you just talk a little bit about what it's like to be a young person going through the mob and the monster that so many people fear? | ||
| That's really why I reached out to Kristen originally when I saw this, because I just saw, oh, here's just a nice girl who wants to run and tell her story, that's it. | ||
| And then, of course, you read the stuff that they're saying about you and about you, Kristen, and all the rest of it, and it's just nothing to do with the truth. | ||
|
unidentified
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It's really frustrating, especially because this is just about sports. | |
| You know, biology matters in sports, and I think that's really obvious to a lot of people. | ||
| So, you know, I'm not trying to be harmful in any way. | ||
| I just want to be able to run on a chair comfortably. | ||
| Yeah, but what about getting all the mean tweets? | ||
| Not fun, right? | ||
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unidentified
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No, but, you know, you've always got to look at the support instead of all the mean tweets. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Kristen, are you seeing this, you guys are in Connecticut, but are you seeing this like all across the country? | ||
| There's so many cases that sound so similar to this. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| We have a case in Idaho. | ||
| As you've probably seen, there have been 30-some different state proposals that were just proposed this last year because we are seeing it happen across the United States. | ||
| I've seen it on my own daughter's teams in conservative Arizona, softball as well as soccer. | ||
| We've had volleyball teams that have called us where literally a girl got a concussion from being hit with a guy playing, and of course they're playing on the lower nets, right? | ||
| And then we have the Idaho case, which where the ACLU immediately brought suit, challenging a law that protected women in that state. | ||
| And they're trying to get it struck down at the Ninth Circuit. | ||
| And we represent two track athletes at the collegiate level in that case as well. | ||
| I'm actually glad that you brought that case up because I was gonna bring that up. | ||
| What has happened to the ACLU that was once the great defender of civil liberties in the United States and now is actually attacking women in essence? | ||
| It's horrific. | ||
| I mean, it's just so stunning when you think about the fact that the ACLU would go after, you know, would defend those in Skokie so many years ago, and yet on free speech matters, they don't believe in free speech anymore. | ||
| And we used to be able to say that, you know, we would defend to the death you for your free speech rights, even if we disagreed with you. | ||
| And that used to be the ACLU's position, but they've abandoned it long ago in favor of ideology. | ||
| I will say, though, that there is a broader coalition that's supporting Chelsea and this issue. | ||
| There are, you know, feminists that are coming out and saying this is not right, and we're thankful for them. | ||
| We might not align with them on other issues, but man, where we do align is that biology matters and that we're setting women back by allowing men to call themselves women and compete against women in their own categories. | ||
| Chelsea, I can sense you're wired sorta cool, which I like here, but can you talk a little bit about what it's like to just be a young person in this bizarrely polarized political time and all of this stuff, transgender athletes and critical race theory, all of these things that I'm sure your friends are talking about, and it's gotta be just a rough time to be in high school and college right now. | ||
|
unidentified
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It's definitely hard, especially on this topic, because, you know, I really believe that, you know, biological prematurity is important. | |
| And, you know, an issue that should be pretty clear and pretty obvious has been very politicized. | ||
| And it's definitely very frustrating to have it be that way when I don't think it should be. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Kristen, is that the bizarre part that this doesn't feel like the type of thing you should even be having to deal with as a case at some level? | ||
| Like 15 years ago, this never would have probably got to your desk. | ||
| No, it wouldn't have. | ||
| I mean, there are so many conversations that we have, you know, among our 70 attorneys. | ||
| It's like, I can't believe we have to go in and argue about body parts in the courtroom and say that they matter. | ||
| Or that someone would say that saying a biological male is biological male is harmful or hurtful speech. | ||
| And this is just common sense and the science does support it. | ||
| So we believe that in the end, it's an important issue for the protection of our women and our daughters. | ||
| And it's those, it's the female athletes and women that are gonna suffer the brunt of this harm if we lose these biological differences in the law. | ||
| Yeah, has that been the weird part for both of you guys that, you know, the side that keeps saying science matters is actually being quite anti-science right now? | ||
| That must be strange for you, Chelsea. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah, it's definitely frustrating to hear them kind of, you know, not acknowledge the science behind biology. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Well, how can we shed further light on this? | ||
| How can we help you guys? | ||
| Chelsea, where can I direct people to if they want to support you, support the cause? | ||
|
unidentified
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You know, I just think spreading awareness about this issue and having conversations about it is definitely good. | |
| You know, we just want people to understand what's really happening and that this is an unfair situation. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| All right, Kristen, we're going to direct the people to you. | ||
| That's probably a better idea. | ||
| We'll link to your Twitter down below. | ||
| But for people that want to get involved, because I know there's a lot of people, they want to donate to the right causes. | ||
| You know, they used to maybe donate to the ACLU, but they don't want to anymore. | ||
| They want to help the lawyers that are on the front lines of this. | ||
| What can people do? | ||
| Well, certainly we, all of our services to our clients are pro bono and we would appreciate the support. | ||
| We've been leading on the issue in terms of the litigation, but also the legislative work. | ||
| We've been in all of these states and eight states have passed bills so far. | ||
| So that's one thing, but I want to really encourage grassroots support in your own backyard. | ||
| I mean these things are happening in our school boards. | ||
| The same philosophy as you already linked it with CRT. | ||
| We need to be active when these kinds of policies are passed because they pass them under the dark of night and we need to be adept to those and have the courage to speak out in our own communities and also to be looking out for those like Chelsea who are caught in the crosshairs Give them words of encouragement because they feel isolated and they are attacked. | ||
| And so those words of encouragement are really helpful, too. | ||
| Well, Chelsea, you're brave. | ||
| You're doing the right thing. | ||
| And if you ever make it out to L.A. | ||
| and you want to run a race with a 44-year-old guy with a torn ACL in his left knee, I could give it a go. | ||
| It probably will not end well for me. | ||
|
unidentified
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Thank you. | |
| Kristen, we'll link to some of your stuff down below so people can find out more about the law firm and what you guys are doing. | ||
| And I thank you guys for taking the time. | ||
| And oh, well, I guess I should ask one other question, which is, I assume you tried to contact the USA Today and say, guys, this is not cool. | ||
| What did they say? | ||
| Did they even get back to you? | ||
| We did have a conversation. | ||
| I didn't have that conversation, but our media team did. | ||
| And as you can see, it's still up. | ||
| So they did not fix it. | ||
| And that's deeply, deeply concerning for the future of journalism. | ||
| Yeah, that's a whole other story that I cover here pretty much every day. | ||
| Well, Chelsea, Kristen, I thank you guys and we'll keep watching. | ||
|
unidentified
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Thank you. | |
| Thank you. | ||
| All right, take care. | ||
| If you're looking for more honest and thoughtful conversations about women's issues instead of nonstop yelling, check out our Women's Issues playlist. | ||
| And if you want to watch full interviews on a variety of topics, check out our full episode playlist. | ||
| They're both right over here. |
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