June 3, 2021 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
19:46
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
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| We added almost 500,000 net new jobs, total new jobs in the state, which is a lot. | ||
| We cut more taxes than ever been cut, but we also raised the average income level, the fastest rate in the country. | ||
| We were the fastest improving state in the country in education results, K-12. | ||
| We did it in our way, not the way that is being proposed by the current administration. | ||
| We actually made a program where community colleges and our technical schools could be open to everyone. | ||
| We actually had a free technical school and community college program for folks. | ||
| So the idea being, let's level the playing field on the front so we don't have to do so much to help folks on the back end. | ||
| And I think we finally just made this a type of place that people wanna live. | ||
|
unidentified
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(upbeat music) | |
| I'm Dave Rubin and joining me today is a visiting professor of political science | ||
| at Vanderbilt University, the former two-term governor of Tennessee | ||
| and author of the new book, "Faithful Presence, the promise and peril of faith in the public square. | ||
| Governor Bill Haslam, welcome to the Rubin Report. | ||
| Well, thanks for having me. | ||
|
unidentified
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It's good to be with you and your viewers. | |
| Well, I'm glad to have you on because, you know, we get sent an awful lot of books. | ||
| We get sent an awful lot of pitches. | ||
| And I can't have everybody on, but I wanted to do this because I thought what you're talking about In this book, the blend of politics and faith is particularly interesting. | ||
| I found it interesting at a personal level, just because of my own sort of political and spiritual evolution. | ||
| And that sort of will be the framework of where we start here. | ||
| But first, you're in Tennessee now. | ||
| I was there a few weeks ago. | ||
| They're doing something right in Tennessee. | ||
| I know you're not the governor anymore, but you must be happy with the state of the state, right? | ||
| You know, our founders kind of had this great idea, like, let the states be laboratories of democracy. | ||
| Let them all do it their own way. | ||
| And I think states like Tennessee have chosen to be lower tax, encouraging business growth. | ||
| And I think you're seeing the result of that. | ||
| People get to choose where they live and We have a lot more inflow than we do outgo these days. | ||
| I'll put it that way. | ||
| Yeah, before we get into the specifics of the book, do you miss being in government right now? | ||
| You know, you do. | ||
| Listen, being in government is such a great chance to make a difference. | ||
| I don't want to sound corny, but you know, it's a great way to help change the trajectory of people's lives. | ||
| And so I do miss that, but I'm also somebody that I kind of believe in the whole term limit idea. | ||
| Eight years of governor is the right amount. | ||
| If you can get something done, you should be able to get it done in that time and then hand the baton to the next person and let them run. | ||
| So what were some of the things, I have a whole list of them here, some of the things that you would say were your big successes when you were? | ||
| You know, well, I mean, several things. | ||
| I mean, I think we added almost a half, almost 500,000 new jobs, net new jobs, total new jobs in the state, which is a lot. | ||
| We cut more taxes than ever been cut, but we also raised the average income level, the fastest rate in the country. | ||
| We're the fastest improving state in the country in education results, K-12. | ||
| We did it in our way, not the way that's being proposed by the current administration. | ||
| We actually made a program where community colleges and our technical schools could be open to everyone. | ||
| We actually had a A free technical school and community college program for folks. | ||
| So the idea being, let's level the playing field on the front so we don't have to do so much to help folks on the back end. | ||
| And I think we finally just made this a type of place that people want to live. | ||
| And we said to businesses, we get it. | ||
| Jobs get created when people put capital at risk. | ||
| And I think business owners appreciated that. | ||
| You said to me right before we started recording, boy, you'd save a lot of money if you move from Cali to Tennessee. | ||
| What do you think it is about blue state governors that they can't understand that lowering taxes actually incentivizes business and commerce and people to make decisions for themselves, et cetera? | ||
| Part of the problem is they're stuck with some legacy costs that it's going to take a while to work out. | ||
| So you have these pension obligations that a lot of states have that you can't just snap your fingers and make them go away. | ||
| They have to be addressed. | ||
| And I feel sorry for some of the current governors because it was people in the past who promised things that couldn't be delivered. | ||
| But I honestly think a lot of it is just not appreciation for, again, for How jobs get created, and folks think, well, jobs get created by the government, and we know that's not true. | ||
| For the government to create a job, they have to take tax money away from folks to do that. | ||
| We know jobs get created, like I said, when people invest capital. | ||
| And they invest capital where there's a more sure predictor of return, and keeping taxes low is one way to do that. | ||
| So you were a businessman before you were in government, so you know a little something about this. | ||
| I hope so. | ||
| I mean, again, you know, being in, people say, oh, we ought to put a business person in the mayor, governor, president seat. | ||
| It's a different world, OK? | ||
| But there's some things you learn in business that do adapt to being in government. | ||
| One of those is you've got to make the budget work and you've got to have a product, your state. | ||
| Again, people get to choose where they live. | ||
| That makes it worth it for people to choose your state. | ||
| Okay, so I want to talk about the book. | ||
| The title is Faithful Presence, the Promise and Peril of Faith in the Public Square. | ||
| So first off, just on a personal side, can you tell me a little bit about your faith? | ||
| Yeah, you know, back when I was in high school, I decided that the best I could, I would try to follow Jesus with my life, and it's really what led me into politics. | ||
| I kind of Like a lot of folks, spent some time in business, thought about doing a couple of other things. | ||
| Ended up being talked into running for mayor. | ||
| And being mayor and governor both, to me, felt like the very best place to serve. | ||
| And because of that, you know, you talk about a job as being a calling. | ||
| Both jobs, being mayor and governor, felt more like home than anything I'd ever done. | ||
| So I think a lot of people think, well, how can you be a person of faith and be in politics? | ||
| Meaning politics is dirty. | ||
| It's messy. | ||
| You gotta do unethical things. | ||
| You gotta lie. | ||
| You gotta cheat. | ||
| You gotta, all the stuff. | ||
| How did you mitigate all of those things? | ||
| And maybe the temperature was a little bit different years ago when you were doing this than right now. | ||
| Well, I've just been in office for two years, so the temperature is definitely, the temperature continues to rise, you're right. | ||
|
unidentified
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So I'd say, people say, well, is it hard to be a Christian in politics? | |
| I'd say, is it hard to be a Christian in business or in media or anything else? | ||
| Is it hard to not be anxious about things? | ||
| Is it hard to not have pride and to have the wrong kind of pride, to be arrogant? | ||
| I think the thing about being in government, I tell folks, is there's a quote from Martin Luther, the theologian, where he said, hey, send your very best into politics, because dealing with the ambiguities of life there take real insight. | ||
| You know, in preaching, the Holy Spirit does all the work. | ||
| You have to figure out how to live in this gray world of politics, and I think you can do that. | ||
| And one of the things I'm trying to encourage folks is, don't be scared off from being involved in politics from being in the public square. | ||
| Because it is such a great place to change lives and to make a difference. | ||
| So how would you describe the promise of faith in the public square? | ||
| Obviously, we have a separation of church and state, but you also have the right to believe whatever you wanna believe. | ||
| How would you describe that promise? | ||
| Yeah, I mean, so one of the clear things, one of the, again, the bright, the incredibly smart things our founders did was say, the religion's so important, we're not gonna let the government play a role in it. | ||
| We're not going to have a government-established religion. | ||
| But the second part of that, when people talk about separation of church and state, it also says we're not going to do anything to prohibit the free exercise of it. | ||
| So, again, that's the brilliance of the Founders. | ||
| Faith is too important for the government to be in charge of. | ||
| And that's what I think is really important. | ||
| So I like that. | ||
| I don't want us to have a government-established religion. | ||
| Whenever you have that, the church doesn't thrive well in that environment. | ||
| in that where the church is fairly dead, where historically you had a government established church. | ||
| I think we do better have the government stay out of it, but again, not to stop people from practicing their faith | ||
| in the way that they think they should. | ||
| Yeah, are you worried that the church in America, I would say the church, | ||
| but also temples from a Jewish perspective, probably almost every religion | ||
| that they are becoming incredibly politicized right now? | ||
| Well, I think there's two big things. | ||
| First of all, if you look at the Gallup surveys, the number of people who say I'm a member of a temple or a church or a place of worship has decreased dramatically. | ||
| And some of that is just cultural changes in our country, so people don't feel like, well, I have to go to temple or I have to go to church to be a respectable member of society. | ||
| And some of that's okay. | ||
| We're actually kind of sifting through what's true faith and what is that that I'm just doing for appearance's sake. | ||
| So I think some of that change is good. | ||
| I do worry about what you said, that we can politicize our faith. | ||
| It's one of the reasons I wrote this book. | ||
| The object is to be used by God, not to use God. | ||
| And if you look at the Scripture, God doesn't treat lightly those people who are using Him for other purposes. | ||
| So as these things get more politicized, do you sense that sort of what has happened on the other side of the aisle, on the Democratic side of the aisle, is that there just is no attachment to faith? | ||
| I mean, the Democrats used to talk about faith a little bit more. | ||
| Biden sort of does, but then seemingly his policies are in conflict with the ideals of his faith. | ||
| Or at least that's what a lot of people would say. | ||
| Yeah, I think some of that depends on where you are in the Democratic Party. | ||
| Think about the African-American part of the Democratic Party. | ||
| The faith is still a strong part of who they are and a strong part of how they identify. | ||
| And sometimes I wonder if the Democratic Party is leaving a lot of people of faith behind in the way they address issues. | ||
| I think that would be the fear on the Democrat side. | ||
| On the Republican side, like I said, is this idea that some folks think, well, I'm going to use my politics to direct my faith instead of the other way around. | ||
| Right, so let's talk about that peril part, because you're talking about the promise and the peril. | ||
| So what was the peril for you as you were trying to incorporate your spiritual side to a public life? | ||
| I think this, one of the things that I noticed from being in office was that people of faith didn't act any different than non-believers in the public square. | ||
| They were just as likely to be hateful on the internet. | ||
| You talked about the temperature rising. | ||
| They were just as likely to hide behind the anonymity to send a message that you would never say face to face. | ||
| And we're just as likely to be people, you know, it says, you know, God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. | ||
| We're just as likely to be proud and think we have the right answer on this issue as folks who are saying we want to get to the best answer. | ||
| And I think when politics works best, it's about folks saying, it's not me arguing with you about which one of us is right, it's talking with you, and then let's figure out together if we can solve this problem. | ||
| Yeah, were you worried at times if you were to talk about your faith, not even publicly, but if you were privately in a meeting, you've got your crew around you, not even your political opponents, but just your own people around you, that if you were to bring faith too much into it, that that was gonna cause a problem? | ||
| And some of that, just to be blunt with you, is a question of where you are in the country, | ||
|
unidentified
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Sure. | |
| right? | ||
| There's certain places in Tennessee that's probably a little easier to have that conversation | ||
| than there might be in California, right? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| But I think the reality is, regardless of where you live, is to be true to what you | ||
| believe and not to be letting your politics change that or affect those things that you | ||
| -- your most deeply held beliefs. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Are you sensing any sort of spiritual renewal right now? | ||
| I mean, I know you mentioned there's a certain amount of people leaving the church, leaving the temples, that sort of thing. | ||
| But I sense a new, something on the horizon here as we're watching the secular world just go bananas. | ||
| I actually do. | ||
| I think folks look around and, you know, it's interesting. | ||
| If you think about it, the secular world is the one that always in the past would say, well, there is no such thing as truth, right? | ||
| That truth is all relative. | ||
| That, well, you think this, I think that. | ||
| I mean, actually in California, there's a proposal right now to say that math is not objective. | ||
| Right. | ||
| 2 plus 2 doesn't equal 4 anymore over here in crazy Cali. | ||
| Part of that is this whole idea of like, nobody can define truth for someone else. | ||
| But I think we've seen in a lot of the marches for justice, you know, if you're asking for justice, you're saying there is such a thing as truth, right? | ||
| And I think what you're seeing is a world that says, if we don't have any truth, we have some problem. | ||
| And ultimately to say there's truth means there has to be some transcendent being who's determining You know, truth beyond what's just the truth of this age, if that makes sense. | ||
| No, it does make sense. | ||
| What about the people, where do you think the people that are the non-believers fit into this? | ||
| One of the things that I've been most interested by lately is that there is a group, Atheists for Liberty, that I've now seen at some conservative events. | ||
| It doesn't seem like it traditionally fits within the conservative tent, but the ideals they're espousing, minus the faith part, are those same ideals? | ||
| Freedom and liberty and things of that nature. | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| Well, one of the first things I'd say to people of faith is that people who say that I'm really not a believer, that they're not the enemy, okay? | ||
| And too much, it's become, it's a good guy versus bad guys. | ||
| You know, the enemy is all of the real issues that we're dealing with in life. | ||
| And so, I think, to me, that's interesting. | ||
| I can't remember the name of the group, but that's a good, so, as you said, right, okay. | ||
| To me, that's interesting. | ||
| They're saying there is such a thing as liberty. | ||
| There is such a thing that matters in terms of freedom, which because there's such a thing, again, that matters in terms of justice. | ||
| And I think building on all that is something that we would want to encourage. | ||
| I ask a lot of my guests this, but are you hopeful for America right now? | ||
| I think related to the faith piece, a lot of people are really, really worried about the future. | ||
| A lot of young people just can't see a path that kind of makes sense going forward. | ||
| So I love your question. | ||
| That's why I wrote this book. | ||
| You know, I wrote this book really to people of faith, saying the country's really discouraged, right? | ||
| Because we're divided. | ||
| We're pretty equally divided. | ||
| You know, the last eight presidential races have been closed. | ||
| Senate's 50-50. | ||
| The House has six votes separating them. | ||
| Probably will flip the next election. | ||
| We're divided and we're mad about it. | ||
| And then when I'm mad, we think the other side is, you know, coming at it for bad motives. | ||
| And a lot of people are coming around saying, what's going to get us out of this? | ||
| And my point would be, maybe here's where people of faith, you know, Scripture talks about, you know, there's salt that keeps the meat from going bad. | ||
| And if the meat goes bad, it's not the meat's fault, it's the salt's fault. | ||
| And so I'm saying to people of faith, we should start with ourselves. | ||
| And if we're supposed to be the salt, if the meat's going bad, if the culture seems to be going the wrong direction, maybe it's our fault. | ||
| And how can we change that conversation? | ||
| So in essence, you would say we need a sort of spiritual revival in some way, that the answers are not coming from getting the right governors in with the right marginal tax rates. | ||
| Well, listen, I think having good government matters. | ||
| So it's not one versus the other. | ||
| I'm just saying that people of faith can be part of who changes the conversation. | ||
| The fact of what you said is that the temperature continues to go up. | ||
| Maybe we can be people who change the way that conversation happens in the sense of, When I'm having a discussion with somebody, my job is not to put them down or come up with a really clever retort to them, but my job is to listen and understand and say, what's really the best answer we can come here? | ||
| Because if I really am a person of faith, my issue here is not to be proven right. | ||
| That's tough in an age of social media, huh? | ||
| No question. | ||
| So that's what's made it really, people say, what's different today from 30 years ago? | ||
| I'd say 30 years ago, We didn't have this environment that rewards people for being social media stars instead of actually getting things done. | ||
| We have a lot of people in Washington who are like, I'm not really a senator, I just play one on TV or on social media. | ||
| And as you know, it's really easy to be a social media star. | ||
| So the hopeful thing is maybe we can encourage people who want to say, I'm here not to make a point, but to make a difference. | ||
| in a world that gives you a lot of applause for making a point. | ||
| Yeah, do you think some of this is just the fact that so many people have a voice now, that part of the chaos is just that we're getting more voices, where in the old days, we just didn't have all the voices, and so we sort of thought we were more unified, but maybe we weren't. | ||
| I think that's fair, and people always say, you know, what are the party fathers and mothers of the Republican Party, what are they doing about this situation? | ||
| I say, you know, there is no such thing anymore. | ||
| I mean, you know, there is no, Backroom group of folks who are deciding making these decisions. | ||
| It's become a very flat world and everybody is getting their voice. | ||
| So I do think there is some of that is this is just everybody has a everybody has their own microphone and megaphone now, but I think that that cacophony of noise has led folks to say and well, how do we how do we ever get direction and vision out of this? | ||
| Yeah, well, I wanna give you the last word. | ||
| You've been hopeful throughout. | ||
| One of the things I try to do on my show, on my daily show and in my interviews, I want people to feel hope because this is so screwy right now and a lot of people are feeling kinda depressed. | ||
| Give me one more pitch for hope and how people that wanna be involved politically, how, in your view, their faith can help them in that regard. | ||
| Well, I would say this. | ||
| Don't give up on the public square. | ||
| Okay, as messy as it is, as frustrating as it is, because the public square is still that place where you can affect the common good. | ||
| This is where you can really make the most change. | ||
| And I left office, I was a mayor for seven years, a governor for eight years. | ||
| I left office after 15 years being way more impressed with how many people really want to get it right and how many people truly care. | ||
| Unfortunately, there's some really loud voices that are interested in being loud voices instead of accomplishing something. | ||
| But my sense is there's a great, I don't want to say great majority of people, but there's a large number of people who really, truly care and want this to be about being better. | ||
| Yeah, I agree. | ||
| And we just need those people to speak up. | ||
|
unidentified
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It's almost as simple as that. | |
| Thanks. | ||
| I really enjoyed, I enjoyed our visit and I really appreciate having the opportunity to be on your show. | ||
| It was my pleasure, Governor. | ||
| It was my pleasure, Governor. | ||
| And the link to the book is right down below. | ||
| Thanks a lot and have a great day. | ||
| You too. | ||
| If you're looking for more honest and thoughtful conversations about politics instead of nonstop yelling, check out our politics playlist. | ||
| And if you want to watch full interviews on a variety of topics, watch our full episode playlist all right over here. |
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