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March 14, 2021 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
58:04
Ex-Press Sec: Bad Sign for Kamala & the COVID Relief Swindle | Dana Perino | POLITICS | Rubin Report
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dana perino
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dave rubin
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dana perino ▲ ● ▼
About three weeks ago, I said, you'll know that there's some tension or a little bit of elbow room when you start seeing background quotes from somebody close to the White House or within the White House who says something about Kamala Harris that would make it clear that she is the vice president.
And so when I saw that, I'm like, to me, it was kind of the first time you had seen a little bit of a brushback pitch.
And I don't know what's going on internally, because you never see anybody.
They don't talk.
They don't do anything.
But that was definitely a little bit of a, just remember.
And also if I were Kamala Harris, I'd be mad.
unidentified
(upbeat music)
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I'm Dave Rubin and joining me today is a former White House press secretary to George W. Bush,
co-anchor of America's Newsroom and co-host of The Five on Fox News
and author of the new book, "Everything Will Be Okay, Life Lessons for Young Women"
from a former young woman.
Dana Perino, welcome back to The Rubin Report.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Honored to be here.
Thanks for having me.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
You are a busy lady, and before we get to any of that busy stuff, most importantly, how is your dog Jasper?
I could do just an hour on dogs and Jasper with you.
How's he doing?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
It's actually one of the ways that you and I first connected, right?
It was dogs.
And I see that great picture of Clyde.
Is that Clyde there in the picture behind you?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
That's actually Emma over there.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
That was Emma.
OK, yep.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
But they look like bizarrely similar, which is a total coincidence.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
I remember when Clyde came into your life, it was like, wait, this is perfect.
And you weren't anticipating, you weren't planning it, but it all worked out great.
So Jasper's great.
He is going to be nine in April.
In late January, he came out of the bedroom one morning and was walking real strange, tail down, hair up.
Obviously, you know your dog, you know something's wrong.
But, fortunately, they can't tell you what's wrong.
So, we took him to the vet.
They did a check.
There was a small tumor, a malignant tumor on his small intestine.
They remove that through surgery, and then we've waited quite a while
to find out what the biopsy results were, because they said it was either a very common
malignant tumor or a very rare one.
If it was a very rare one, that was gonna be very tough news, bad news.
But it turned out it was the common one, the surgery was successful,
and we're just going to wait and see what the oncologist says,
if there's anything else we need to do.
But judging by the way that these tumors usually go, he should be fine.
And I would say about 12 days after the surgery, he made this remarkable turnaround.
And all of a sudden he was back to being his very athletic, affectionate, silly self, and...
So we're thrilled.
Thanks for asking.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, do you ever find that when you post pictures of Jasper or just any of the personal stuff, that in a way people care a lot more about that than just sort of, you know, what Dana might think about Congress voted two votes extra this way, that way, the other thing?
Like there is some other connection, and I think this is in some ways partly what the book's about, like that people want something else beyond just the bludgeoning of politics.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, and one of the things that I, you know, I have a rule, no politics at the dog park.
Animals, our love for them, our dominion over them, is something so special in life.
And I grew up on a ranch, so all the animals were special, but the dogs and the horses were really special.
You had that connection with them, that eye contact, that love.
I guess some people feel that way about cats, too.
Can't say I ever had the same experience, though I grew up with cats as well.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
But I do find that there is a way to connect with people that, you know, like Donna Brazile and I, we've been friends for a long time, ever since Hurricane Katrina, and she worked with the Bush administration on restoring New Orleans.
But we really bonded over our dogs, and we both had different dogs, our previous dogs, When we first knew each other, sort of like you and me, in a way.
And then, you know, dogs, unfortunately, they don't live as long as we would like.
And then the best way to heal your heart is to get another dog.
So I think it's been good.
And also, this year has been awful for so many reasons in terms of the pandemic.
But the fact that many families have now, or even single people, have emptied the dog shelters.
And adopted dogs, as I know you have done, and advocate for adoption.
And I'll tell you, I think that makes for a kinder people over time.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, I'm with you.
I mean, you know the story.
I heard the lockdowns were happening and they were gonna put all these dogs down.
I ran to the shelter.
They had the thing signed.
Clive was being put, he was unnamed.
Unnamed dog being put down that day and we snagged him and he's doing okay.
So before we get into the book, let's talk a little bit about just kind of what's going on in the world.
It's been a weird year to say the least.
Well, actually, let's talk about your former job for a second, because Press Secretary and Jen Psaki, I've been giving her a bit of a hard time on the show.
She doesn't seem particularly well-equipped to do this job.
She's always circling back.
A lot of non-answers.
I suspect you've got some sympathy.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Look, a non-answer isn't hard.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
And she's perfected that art, I suppose.
But I'm guessing you have some sympathy.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
I have a different view.
Look, they've only been in office for six weeks.
There is a lot you don't know, and that's one of the reasons you would want to circle back.
She does come to the job with a lot more experience than I had because she was the spokesperson at the State Department under President Obama.
And that gave her two things.
One, a deep dive into foreign policy, which a lot of people don't necessarily have unless you've come up through that industry or that department.
It takes a while to learn all of those issues.
And she used to get a really hard time from a few reporters in particular, James Rosen was one of them from Fox News, but Matt Lee of the Associated Press.
He is an equal opportunity, tough reporter on everybody.
And they used to have a lot of tangles.
And remember, she also got caught up in that whole thing of spying on James Rosen and reporters.
So she comes to the job with a little bit more experience than many press secretaries to date.
The other thing is, if she has a press corps that is one, there's not many people in the room because they are very strict on COVID protocols.
So there's probably, I think, I think there's like 10 reporters total in the room.
That makes it for a very different room.
Masks also, I think, are a real barrier to communication.
And even though somebody might try to like hold their mask away, there's this whole thing going on with you can't read lips, you can't read expressions, there's all of that.
And the other thing is, I think President Biden is quite happy not to drive the news.
And it's a weird thing, because I think, well, you have the opportunity, why wouldn't you drive the news every single day?
They seem to have this belief, and we'll see how it turns out for them, that they can do their jobs in a very steady, easy way.
And I use that kind of phrasing because that feels like the pace of the administration.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Is that partly just because the media kinda likes them perhaps a bit more than they like that Trump fella?
So, you know, they're not gonna ride them as hard.
It makes their job a little bit easier.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
I have a different way of answering this.
And I haven't thought of this until just now because I haven't really been asked, but if you think back to the press secretaries, everyone kind of represents their boss very well.
Right, so think of Ari Fleischer, Tony Snow, and me, Scott McClellan.
We had the confidence of George W. Bush.
You think of the press secretaries.
Even though Sean Spicer was not press secretary for very long, he continues to be a part of President Trump's orbit, I would say.
The other press secretaries, Stephanie Grisham, a little bit different.
She never briefed.
That might be a little bit of a different one.
But I think that Jen Psaki is just kind of in the approach, tone, attitude of Joe Biden.
Maybe what you want from a press secretary, one, you might want some more answers, always.
But you also want to know that what you are getting from that press secretary is what the president is thinking and how he thought about it and how they got to that decision.
I think that she's actually doing that.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah.
Do you sense that Biden is actually in charge of this operation?
Because it doesn't really seem like he is.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
I mean, I hear what you're saying, but I remember so many times.
Do you remember how they said that Karl Rove was Bush's brain or that Dick Cheney was really the one in charge of everything?
It wasn't true.
I think about this now, you know, the other day when they did the attack on the Iranian forces in Syria, did you see the news that they didn't tell Kamala Harris until after?
So to me, I think, yeah, I think that he is in charge.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah.
When you see something like that get leaked, not that they did the attack, but that the vice president didn't know.
Yeah.
What do you make of like that process?
Because it seems to me that there's got to be something going on there that allows that to get, like, that's the story in an odd way more than, you know, bombing a random caravan.
I think you're with me.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Love talking to you because nobody else has brought that up.
Yes.
Okay.
This Biden team has been the most tight-lipped, disciplined, no leaks, no backbiting.
I mean, people are kind of bored.
Like, wait, we used to get... What happens?
Even in any administration, you would get a little bit of that.
But on the campaign trail, they were very disciplined.
And I think that's partly because they keep their circle so Small, but really pretty interesting that even as it grew from the primary campaign into the general election, still no leaks, hardly any background.
You didn't get any color.
Like, you're like, what's going on over there?
About three weeks ago, I said, you'll know that there's some tension or a little bit of elbow room when you start seeing background quotes from somebody close to the White House or within the White House who says something about Kamala Harris that would make it clear that she is the vice president.
And so when I saw that, I'm like, to me, it was kind of the first time you had seen a little bit of a brushback pitch.
And I don't know what's going on internally, because you never see anybody.
They don't talk.
They don't do anything.
But that was definitely a little bit of a, just remember.
And also, if I were Kamala Harris, I'd be mad.
And then what has happened is you have West Wing versus Vice President's office.
There's always a little tension there, even though they handled it pretty well so far.
And Joe Biden is actually quite, I'm going to say solicitous, but he tries to be very inclusive of Kamala Harris.
So even though he is the president, he will say, I did this, and then he'll stop himself and say, We did this.
And I think that's a little bit out of respect.
And also maybe just his management style that he wants it to look like there's a team and a shared effort.
I think time will tell.
It's a little early to say.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So while you're giving these guys credit on sort of the competency of how they're managing the thing, how do you think we're doing on the unity and healing front?
That was the meme we got starting on January 1st.
Well, really, I guess on the 20th.
But really, it's starting at the top of the year.
It was like, OK, 2020 is gone.
Now we can begin the year of unity and healing.
That was the messaging for a while.
We're not really hearing about it anymore.
I never felt that it really had any value because we know if the shoe had been on the other foot, this certainly wouldn't have been about unity and healing.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
And the bipartisan effort to try to do a COVID relief plan that they are now calling the American Rescue Package, that was like the whole idea was that we're going to do this together.
And pretty quickly, it was clear that Ron Klain, who is the chief of staff, is not for that at all.
Again, there's a little bit of color from the meeting that you remember when several of those Republicans, Susan Collins, Romney, Portman, about seven of them, they go to the Oval Office to have a meeting with Joe Biden to say, hey, look, you say 1.9 trillion.
We say 600 billion.
Let's talk like maybe we can figure out some things.
And Susan Collins, the senator from Maine, reports that during that entire meeting, Ron Klain sat to the president's side out of out of eyesight from Biden.
Shaken his head the whole time.
And she said she knew in that meeting, he was like, they have no intention of making this a bipartisan effort.
Of course, they would love for some Republicans to say, oh, yeah, sure.
OK, well, we'll do that.
It's interesting unity.
In any general election, you can find that a majority of people, a vast majority of people will say they want Congress to work together, to get along, to do the right thing together and move the country forward.
And then that lasts for about three days.
In this case, it didn't even get there at the time.
So it looks like we're going to get $1.9 trillion.
Of spending by a very slim majority of Democrats.
And I don't think that you'll get, I don't think you'll get any Republicans to vote for it in the end.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Right, so as someone that worked in the government and had to manage messaging and stuff, when they come up with these numbers, okay, we want 600 billion, we want 1.9 trillion, blah, blah, blah, it's like, doesn't it all kind of feel made up?
Like, where are these numbers really coming from?
Who's really paying for it?
Like, that there's never a cost?
There's never a cost to be like, I'm the guy that wants to cut some stuff, so you'd never do it, or there's never a benefit.
In other words, like, I'm gonna cut some stuff, no one's gonna really give you credit, people just want more and more and more and more.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, so imagine that Ron Klain would say, we can do $1.9 trillion, but don't you dare think about going to $2 trillion, because $2 trillion to the ear, that's why things cost $9.99 at the store.
$9.99 at the store.
They don't cost $10, because you'd be like, well, I'm not going to pay $10.
But $9.99, that's reasonable.
I think with the Democrats, the more you look at this bill, there's very little that's specific
And they have a particular philosophy, and they're sticking to it.
They think that the stimulus bill that Obama passed in 2009 was way too small, and that it did not do enough to help the economy, and that was one of the reasons that they say.
That the economy stalled.
They don't talk about the regulations that they put on businesses, all the things that they were trying to do to engineer the economy as the problem.
They think that not passing more stimulus in 2009 was what hurt Obama.
And Ron Klain came into this saying that we are not going to go too small, that the danger of going too small is worse than the risk of spending too much.
That's their position.
But if you start going through this bill, I just read this piece today by Isaac Shore in National Review.
There's a provision in there for federal employees to be given $21,000 additional if their children have had to do school from home and that's been a hardship for them.
It's outrageous.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Swamp?
I think that's what we call the swamp?
Is that what we call the swamp?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
That is so much the swamp.
Isaac Shore, National Review, check that one out.
There's the things like the hundred million dollars for the bridge that Chuck Schumer wants in Canada.
There's the hundred million dollars that Nancy Pelosi wants for That transportation project from San Francisco out to Silicon Valley, where I thought everybody was working from home now, so why do we need that?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Actually, they've all moved to Miami.
That's the real truth.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Right, so that they could save on taxes.
There is so much in this bill that has nothing to do with COVID relief.
And think back to what happened, what was born out of the stimulus package in 2009?
The Tea Party.
You know, they got the grassroots attention.
I have a feeling that this could be the same thing.
Now, I also absolutely believe that there are many people who have suffered in this pandemic through no fault of their own.
A lot of restaurant owners, waitresses, people that worked in a hospitality, and we could target specific money to them.
But you go through this and it is a big wish list.
And part of the thing is that Republicans disagreeing amongst each other.
That's normal. It's going to happen.
But that is like catnip for reporters.
They're always going to report on that.
They don't do it as much with the Democrats, though.
They have lots of differences amongst themselves.
But Republicans have not really been able to figure out a way to drive a message
about this bill. And I don't know how you feel about this, Dave, but the
legislation as written has a 73 percent approval rating across the country.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Well, I think to me, it's just that people don't know what's in anything.
It's sort of what you're saying, and it's like, oh, you see a high number, so you're like, oh, I kinda don't know where the money comes from, but I guess it doesn't come from me, and they'll just take it from somewhere, and then if it's a high number, that means I'll get more, so no politician ever wants to be the one.
Well, I guess there's probably one guy that kinda does it every now and again, which is Rand Paul, is the one guy that's like, oh, maybe we can't And then you sound mean.
unidentified
Right, then you're mean and cold.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
That's right.
And we're about to see, like right after this, they're going to pass a infrastructure bill too.
And it will be probably four trillion dollars.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Do you think that the Democrats basically fundamentally believe that you, at this point, that you can just print money endlessly?
Because I just have come to that.
Like they don't, there's no economic principle for any of this.
And by the way, it's not like the Republicans are so great.
They, you know, Trump cut taxes and also the budget exploded too.
So like, they're all guilty.
But I think more fundamentally, it seems the Democrats believe that you can just print, print, print, print money.
Which also makes their position on taxes a little weird, because then why would you always be raising taxes on the rich, unless it's purely to punish them, right?
If you can just print money in an unlimited supply, then why do you have to punish people too?
Well, I guess if you just need an enemy to point at.
But do you think that, or is that all of government at this point?
Which is just, ah, we'll just make up numbers and just keep printing and, you know, we'll go as far as we can till the end, till we ride right off the cliff.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Well, not only that, but I don't think that you have many people in business telling them not to.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah.
unidentified
Right?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
So who's standing athwart saying no?
You know, a few congressmen and people on Fox News?
Probably not going to cut it.
And Republicans are also guilty.
But look, the law of economics, it's called law for a reason, the laws of economics haven't changed.
I think the Democrats think they can print money, but also I think that they think they can tax their way out of this problem.
But I'll tell you one thing about that.
If you go back to Obama era, and when the Bush tax cuts were going to expire, they actually kept them.
Because economically, they knew that that would actually hurt economic growth even more, raising taxes at that time.
So, I don't know how they're going to raise all this money.
I mean, hope is not a plan.
You don't want your accountant to be hopeful.
And that's what we're dealing with right now.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Right, so before we get to the book, I wanna ask you a little bit about, you've had a couple changes kinda in your day-to-day, shifting around your schedule, and you're doing like 87 shows and all kinds of stuff, but I also wanna ask you about Fox and kinda what's going on over there, because I still hear this a lot when I go on Fox.
Like, there's a certain amount of people that are just sort of pissed at Fox that a year ago were not pissed at Fox.
Do you hear any of that?
Do you think any of the criticism- Not so much anymore.
Is legit?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Not so much anymore, no.
I mean, obviously I heard a lot about that, you know, right after the election, but I think now that the new administration is underway and there's a lot of new programming, fresh programming here at Fox.
It's got some exciting programming, of course, you know, in that seven o'clock hour.
Rotating host right now.
Lawrence Jones was hosting this week.
unidentified
Yeah.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Did a great job last night.
Trey Gowdy's been great.
Rachel Campos-Duffy was good.
Katie Pavlich.
I mean, it's like, wow, we have a lot of talent here.
And so that's great.
My job changed in that I was doing the Daily Briefing with Dana Perrino at 2 o'clock, which I loved when you could come on as a guest.
unidentified
Yeah.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
And then The Five, which I've done for nearly 10 years now.
Can you believe it?
10 years in July.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
That's crazy.
unidentified
10 years in July.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
That's absolutely crazy.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Because Jasper's nine.
That's how I always keep track.
So we started in July of 2011.
So in December, just as I'm finishing up this book, just as the election's sort of behind us, thinking I'll have a relaxing time, get COVID behind us with these vaccines, and I get a call saying, we have an idea.
Like, oh, I love ideas, what's your idea?
And it was for me to no longer do America's, excuse me, the daily briefing, but to co-anchor America's Newsroom with Bill Hemmer from nine to 11 in the morning.
I was shocked.
Pleasantly so.
I love Bill Hemmer.
I actually am one of those annoying people that loves mornings.
I like doing that news first of the day.
So we've been doing it since January 18th, and it has been such a joy.
I love it.
And we do a lot more about California, which I think we should.
I think as a nation, we should all be focusing a little bit more on the country as a whole and also in California.
I'd be curious.
We're on 9 to 11, so that's 6 to 8 your time.
I don't know what time you all are getting up and watching any news, but we're getting some pretty good feedback out of California.
Got some good numbers.
The harder thing for me, I think, right now is figuring out How to actually manage the length of my day.
Like, one of the things I write about in the book is about work-life balance and time management and taking control of that and making good personal decisions.
So having the 9 to 11 a.m.
show, which I get up at 4.30 to prepare for that, then having those few hours in between that and the 5, which I need at least an hour and a half to prepare for the 5, I think.
Maybe an hour, but an hour and a half.
It's kind of hard to, like, Where else can you find time to do things?
So that's been a little bit difficult.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, so with your schedule change, well, first off, on the California part and doing an earlier show, I tweeted this the other day, but we have something like 2 million out of the 1.5 million necessary signatures to recall Gavin Newsom.
And I'm pretty sure that CNN has not run a story on it yet.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
We've covered it quite a bit, yeah.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Right, you guys have covered it.
That's my point, that it's like Fox covers it, but if you were just watching mainstream media, you would have no idea that the governor from the largest state in the Union, the 10th biggest economy in the world, something like that, is going to be recalled.
Did you get enough signatures?
So right now, they have about two million, and they only needed 1.5.
We know that because it's a one-party state, when they're going through all the signatures, they're gonna pull all sorts of craziness.
But I think having 500,000 extra, and we still have about a week to get more.
So it's gonna happen.
But the fact that that just doesn't get covered sort of shows you why we're in such a polarized world.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, and also just the economic weight of California, both for the good and the bad, right?
If this COVID relief bill passes, California stands to get $70 billion.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I'm sure we'll spend it well.
unidentified
I'm sure.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yes.
What I think is very interesting about the recall is, is the bipartisan nature or the not, I sort of feel like it's a nonpartisan issue.
Um, as I understand it, a lot of those signatures are being driven by parents of kids, uh, that they want their kids back in school.
And there's the hypocrisy of the elites who will put their, can afford to put their kids in private school, but keep the public schools closed.
And the small business owners and the restaurants who have just like fed up, like it never made sense to me.
The closing of outdoor dining in California is insane.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Dana, you know I'm in LA.
It's 80 and sunny every single day.
Not only did we have outdoor closed dining, we're still the last state that has closed indoor dining.
Even in New York you can have 35% indoor dining.
Right, so New York, where it's freezing cold right now, you could have 35% indoor.
We have still closed outdoor.
I mean, and we know that Gavin Newsom is still going out to his dinners and all of that craziness, but all right, don't get me started on LA, because then this will sidetrack.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Or you'll get recruited to run for governor.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Watch yourself.
We'll see, we'll see.
Did you get asked?
Look, let the recall happen.
You know, I think I jokingly said it.
It might've been on your show.
I like kind of half said it like six months ago that I would maybe run.
And then everywhere I go now, everybody asks me, let's get the guy recalled.
And then we'll go from there.
How about that?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
You would be a very attractive candidate.
And I don't just mean aesthetically, but of course it's true.
But you know, Dave, we need people to want to run for office.
And I can absolutely understand.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So you know this, why would a good person wanna put up with the insanity?
To me, when for the few minutes that David and I have really discussed it,
like could I actually do it?
It's more about all of the heart, not the management, not about knowing the ideas
and what I would wanna do and all that stuff.
It's about the horror show related to the media and the destruction of personal life and everything else.
So as a person that would clean that stuff up, what kind of advice would you give someone
that would even consider it?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Well, okay, if you are going to do it, one of the things you have to do,
and like if you're serious about it, you have to ask somebody with competence,
perhaps a friend, to do a very thorough opposition research dump on you
for your own personal consumption.
So, and then you can look at it and say, Oh yeah, that was, yeah, that was dumb.
Oh yeah.
You got to feel and you got to see what it is.
You have to be very honest with yourself because in today's day and age, the competition is fierce.
You're going to face a lot of, um, You know, negativity.
And people could bring things up from your past.
A lot of women will shy away.
That's one of the reasons, like Elise Stefanik, the congresswoman from New York, they focus specifically on helping women who think they want to run for office, but are concerned about something coming up in their past and hurting their current family.
And they also are very reluctant to ask to raise money.
That's one of, I think, the hardest things that people have.
I think you might have a hard time with that, too.
You gotta call up your friends and jawbone them and get them to give you a million dollars for your campaign.
That might not win.
unidentified
Yeah.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
And so that's hard.
But I do think that if people are thinking about running, if you have a loving relationship, a great family that is going to stand by you no matter what, you can do it.
You can get through it.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I think I'm going to stick on YouTube.
For now.
For now.
Unless you're looking to get back in the game and if you want to be my Chief of Staff or something then we can go from there.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
I'd be a very good Chief of Staff.
I would not be a good candidate.
I'd be a great Chief of Staff though.
I'd be like Ron Klain in the background going, nope.
unidentified
Nope.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So let's shift to your book a little bit, because you were talking about sort of your schedule change and managing your life and everything else.
And when I was reading through this this morning, and I've got it right here, I had, there's a certain sort of Jordan Peterson feel to this about getting your life In order, but you know, you're obviously aiming this more towards young women.
Now you say, you say from a former young woman, am I allowed to ask a TV host how old they are?
Is that a question that could be asked?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
So I love the subtitle.
It makes me laugh every time.
And I also think it's true.
So I'll be 49 this year.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So that's like, you're still pretty young.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
But you think about people like what do you learn from let's say 22 when you start your first job to 49 is a lot.
You go through a lot and I get asked by a lot of younger people for advice as they're trying to climb their way up the ladder or try to get their life together.
So I wrote the book because all those young women that come in my office, I could do it all day long.
I could have a mentoring business just sitting here, taking calls, giving advice.
But I just noticed that they would worry so much And they want a specific plan, which specific plans do not exist.
You can put yourself in the right direction.
So when I say in the title, everything will be okay, that is true.
But you have to do some things to make it that way.
You have to make good personal decisions, time management.
I think that there's a lot of freedom in discipline.
In having some principles and parameters in your life that can help you, but there's really ambitious, amazing young people out there.
And especially for young women, if you're born in America, first of all, you already won life's great lottery.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, you're good.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
If you are an educated American woman, then all you got to decide right now is how responsible do you want to be and how hard do you want to work?
Cause you're in the driver's seat.
And I don't think a lot of them realize that, you know, a lot of them think that, um, That the guys are always going to be promoted over the gals.
That's not true.
That the guys are going to get the promotions and the raises.
Any more, that's not true.
Many women are now the primary breadwinner of their families.
And so we're in a little bit of a cultural shift there.
And it is time to step up, to be a leader, to be a manager.
You've got to show that you're able and willing to do it and resilient.
The pandemic adds another wrinkle.
How do you network in a pandemic?
How do you get FaceTime with the boss?
How do you figure out what your next move is?
So I talk about all sorts of those things in the book.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, do you think that the pandemic did anything, broadly speaking, to women in a different way than it did to men?
So perhaps being home more, homeschooling, whatever you might be cooking, all those things, again, of course, they're not exclusive to women, but as you know, because I toured with Jordan, I saw what so many young men were dealing with, and now this is more about what young women are dealing with, throw in a pandemic where everybody's back in the house, and it's very different.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yes, some of the statistics about how many women have left the workforce will just blow your mind.
That there are less women in the workforce now than there were some like 30 years ago.
Now, they'll come back.
That will come back.
But what do you lose in that time frame?
unidentified
Right?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Because new colleagues come, new technology is introduced.
We have a new software system here.
I don't even, I don't even understand it.
But you have to get trained on those things.
You come back to the workforce and all of a sudden they want to cut your salary by $10,000 because you were at home.
What's happened is the reason a lot of women have left the workforce is because kids aren't in school.
So if kids aren't in school, it usually will fall to the woman, the mother, to be the one that stays home to help with the work-from-home schedule, sit on the Zoom, take care of the family.
And women have made a lot of sacrifices.
Men, too.
Men, too.
But from the workplace perspective, yes.
If I could give one piece of advice that I talk about in the book, A girlfriend of mine was a global talent officer for a big PR firm, and she has three boys.
And she's one of the most friends that I look at as, how in the world does she do it all?
One of those friends.
So I asked her about this issue with women.
This is true regardless of the pandemic.
Let's say that you're going to have to take a break from work, whether because of kids work from home or maybe you decide that you want to spend the first few years of your child's life at home and not at the workplace.
When you decide to go back to the workplace, it's almost always true that women will be looked at as a difficult hire.
Because they might not be available all the time.
Workshare is a great idea, and some companies are doing it well.
The pandemic has helped a little bit to make for some more flexibility.
But there will be a gap in your resume, right?
So it'll be like, I worked here, I worked here, but then there's this gap.
And now you're coming back to the workplace.
Oftentimes what Michelle told me is that they will be demoted, or cut in salary, something like that.
So she has this great recommendation.
I tell everybody about this.
And it's true for same-sex couples too, if you, similar situation, if you are going to take some time off from work to help raise a baby.
She says if you're going to take time off, start an LLC, little small business, easy to set up, pretty inexpensive really.
I don't know what California price is, but I think in New Jersey it's like $250.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I think Delaware.
You want to do it in Delaware.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Good point.
And she said, have a little business.
So I would call mine like Dana Perino Communications.
And you have a little bit of opportunity then to take on a client or two or a project here and there.
But when you go back to the workforce, you will not have a work gap.
You will have an entrepreneurial addition.
To the resume so that the chances of you being knocked back either from a responsibility standpoint or salary is greatly decreased.
And I thought that was such good advice.
I try to mention it all always.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
So how much of what you have in the book really is just sort of like think about your life clearly?
'cause it seems to me that a lot of young people, especially because of what's happened in the last year,
not only does the future just look very murky, like the future of the country,
the future of their lives, like a career, any of that kind of stuff,
but also they don't know what they want, in a sense, of young women, maybe they've been trained for too long
to put too much emphasis on career instead of family.
Same could go for young men, where they're always being aimed at.
Like if you were a young woman and you were just like, "I just wanna be the best homemaker and wife that I can be
"and teach my kids and cook and keep a great house."
That's a very lofty thing.
My mom raised three kids.
She did not work when she was raising us, but then did go back to work afterwards.
She worked before, but had a 20-year gap on that while she was raising three kids.
To me, that was a beautiful thing.
But if you say that as a woman now, it's kind of scoffed at by the mainstream.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yes, though I think that's changing a little bit.
I do, especially as women now have more choices, right?
So as I mentioned, a lot of women are now the primary breadwinner.
So that's actually, there's a cultural shift happening there too.
Do you have a life partner that is okay with that, you know, and supportive?
And I think that that is changing just a little bit.
I have a piece of advice in there that I call the whiteboard incident, and it's because of something that Peter did with me.
When we lived in San Diego, I really wanted to work for George W. Bush.
I wanted to get back to Washington, D.C., where I had worked before.
Didn't quite know how to do it.
I was working in PR.
Really didn't enjoy it.
And I couldn't really see how to get ahead.
And we live in San Diego, which is where everybody would love to live, except you're in LA.
That's the other place people want to live.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
San Diego sounds pretty sweet these days, compared to what's going on in LA.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, and the mayor, Kevin Faulkner, did a pretty good job there during COVID, and he could be your competition if you run for governor.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I know, I know.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
So I went to DC.
I met with a few people, networked with folks that I used to work with on Capitol Hill.
At that time, it was August of 2001.
And then most of the jobs were filled, but they'd keep an eye out for me.
And I come home, and I think, I really want to do this.
So Peter says, let's do an experiment.
He gets the whiteboard out with his little erasable marker.
He says, tell me all the things you want to do in a job.
So I listed the things I like to do in my work.
Tell me all the things you don't want to do in a job.
So I listed all of those things.
And then we assigned a value to those things.
And then it became very clear, you add it up.
Staying in San Diego was like a zero.
Doing anything in D.C.
was like a nine.
I'm like, oh, when you look at it that way.
Interesting.
I also mentored a young woman not too long ago, and she was sort of following in the footsteps of her family of medical professionals.
And at the end of the chat, I said, if you weren't going to do this, what would you do?
She goes, Oh, I am so into psychology and I bought these books and I've read all these things and I've been listening to the podcast and I was thinking about getting a master's degree because I'm just so interested in it.
But I said, well, wait, maybe you should be doing that.
Right?
Right.
And so there's just so much freedom now for people to be able to do so many different things.
One last story I'll mention.
There's a young woman that I know who graduated in December of 2019 in event management.
She gets a job.
She's here in New York.
She's going to do events.
And she was working for a company that did events all over the city, big events like runway type things, fashion week, things like that.
And what happens in February 2020?
No events.
And I think that we are now on our one-year anniversary of our two-week lockdown.
unidentified
Yep.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
So she lost her job.
She also ended up with a skin injury.
So she went home to live with her parents.
And she could have been quite despondent.
But she was watching these nurses and doctors, and she knew that in her area, in New Jersey, they needed more masks.
Her mother, or grandmother, was an interior designer who had retired.
She had all this extra fabric.
So, she had a sewing machine, and she's got a hand.
So, while she was recovering from her surgery, she just made masks all day long.
Making masks.
Donating them around.
But they were super cute!
So then people are like, where can I get one of those?
So she started selling the masks and then she ended up with so much business that she hired a couple of other young women to work for her and then she bought an embroidery machine and now she's been doing that and who knows if she'll ever go back to event management.
She found a whole new thing and I love the resilience and the spirit and also she was unconditionally loved by her family.
And it's okay to rely on your family in times like this.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, and that's one of the things that's been so hard for people because in many cases, we're seriously separated from our family.
I actually haven't seen my parents since this began.
unidentified
Me too.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Because they finally just got the vaccines and they're in their early 70s, so it just wasn't gonna happen.
unidentified
Me too.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I'm finally gonna see them in a couple of weeks.
Good.
But I think losing that connection, because people think it can be replaced by FaceTime and Zoom, and it just can't.
unidentified
No.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
And the other thing that's happened for a lot of young people when you're on Zoom all the time is there's a lot of anxiety about your appearance.
Obviously, I'm in full hair and makeup from the show I did earlier from Fox News.
And so this is not how I would normally be if I was working from my office and I wasn't on TV.
The anxiety about performing and being on camera all the time, you think of a lot of people Our kind of introverts, right?
Zoom gets them way out of their comfort zone.
If you have to be on a Zoom for three hours a day with your team, it's been hard on a lot of people.
And also presenting in front of that many people, instead of just doing it in front of your team or your board in the meeting conference room, and you're doing it in front of everybody.
And that anxiety about public speaking is something that I also talk about, especially because one thing that's different from Anything that you and Jordan would have talked about.
One of the pieces of advice I give is women have to find their strong voice.
So we have a naturally higher register.
For some, especially on a Zoom or on camera, the voice can be grating.
And a lot of young women get into this habit early on from their teens and it's kind of following them into the workplace.
I call it up speak.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Talk like this because they're not really sure about all the things.
We just call it valley girl talk.
I'm just telling you, you will not get promoted or chosen to go meet the new client or go on the big business trip if you talk like that.
And a lot of people, Dave, they don't even realize that they're doing it.
And if you can gently point out to them that they're speaking this way, they'll turn it around immediately.
They can turn it up.
It's like, well, I do that?
I didn't know I do that.
And now when they get with their friends, they could fall back into it.
But I'm really, really big on this because I see it.
I'm like, oh, she doesn't stop that.
She's never, never going to get promoted.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
But that's like, that's like one of the ones that it's kind of hard to say to somebody these days, right?
Because it feels like an affront to their, to their very being.
The way you sound, the way you speak.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, maybe there will be an HR violation.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah.
No, that's what I mean.
Like they're gonna, yeah, this is my natural affect.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
But I, I, I've, I've taken a couple of young women aside and you can make it kind of light.
Sweet.
I feel like we have an obligation to help them.
If you have someone in your life, if it's your daughter or your granddaughter or your niece or somebody that works for you, maybe don't even tell them.
Just give them the book and let them see.
Hopefully they'll come to it on their own.
But I'm telling you, I know that this has worked.
There's a young woman who used to work for me who definitely used to do that.
I also think it's a sign of a lack of confidence because if you say something in the form of a question, then you don't have to own the opinion.
You see what I mean?
Like, I don't know.
I'm just asking questions.
If you say it that way, you don't have to own it.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, I thought it was a really interesting part of the book because it reminded me of sort of why I can't stand listening to NPR because they do that thing too and everything sort of sounds like a question and like it's never a definitive proclamation and I can't stand it.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, I mean actually...
unidentified
I don't listen to NPR for a lot of reasons, but now that you say that... That's one of many, many reasons, yeah.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
No, but now that you say that, I realize I'm Morning Edition.
Yeah, I'm Morning Edition.
That tone!
Yeah, even when they ask the question and they know what the answer is, they still do it.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's all scripted.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
It's the worst kind of script.
So I was really interested in chapter four, because it's how do you find a role model.
And as you may remember, chapter nine of my book was find a mentor.
And that was not a chapter that I had intended to put in my book, but what happened with me and Jordan was sort of an accidental mentorship, I suppose, because we happened to be on tour together and it just kind of happened.
But that you made a point of saying, how do you find it?
Like, this is something that you've got to do.
Do you think everybody needs a mentor, needs a role model?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yes, I do.
But I don't think that the relationships have to be as formal as some people might think.
A lot of companies now will have these formal mentoring programs, and that's great.
Although sometimes I don't think they're really working.
Like, I know of this one program where there's somebody that works in production, and they've been paired with somebody who works in accounting.
But it doesn't really work.
Now it's good to meet people around the office and I'm big on networking and building your network and meet as many people as you can.
But yes, I absolutely think that you need role models.
I think back to my childhood, I really wanted to be an anchor, a news anchor.
I loved Diane Sawyer.
She had worked in the Nixon White House.
A lot of people don't remember that.
I liked how she carried herself, her storytelling, her journalism.
I thought she had such gravitas and dignity.
I also even thought of, this is a fictional character, but I loved Cybill Shepherd in Moonlighting.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Oh yeah, Bruce Willis.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
She was the boss lady.
There's a saying in women's mentoring that says, you have to see her to be her.
That's another reason I like to do the mentoring.
I'm constantly finding role models.
I have one now that I write about in the book.
Her name is Anne Glogue.
She's now Dame Anne Glogue, I should say, a self-made businesswoman in Scotland who has the biggest heart.
And as her company, Stagecoach, the busing company, as it's grown internationally, she got the, she's with her, her brothers and her split it up, the responsibilities.
So they expanded into Europe.
She did Europe and Africa and her brothers did Asia and South America.
So she went to Africa.
She had been a nurse in a, they call it in England, a burns unit.
I don't know what we would call it here.
I don't think we have a specific name.
But she treated people that had wounds from burns and fire.
She goes to Africa.
First of all, she refuses to pay bribes.
Will not do it.
And This has never happened before in the busing contracts that are happening in Kenya and Tanzania.
And they said, well, then your buses are not going to be released from the port.
And she says, fine.
And we'll make sure that you're blamed.
And she is tiny.
I'm short.
I'm five.
I think she's a little smaller than me.
Really, really small.
She's got such guts.
But what I really also love about her is her heart.
She saw what was happening for early childhood development and maternal health in Africa and she was just determined to do something about it.
So not only is she just a terrific businesswoman, I feel like she has such a gracious way of handling her time, her work-life balance, where she gives a ton.
With accountability.
You know, nobody gets the free money, but she has a few clinics and an orphanage that she runs.
She runs the business.
And she has, I think, six children and then several that she's adopted from Africa.
And I see her as sort of a peer role model, but You know, even somebody that's a former younger woman can have role models to this day because I always want to be improving.
That's why I listen to, you know, I watch your show, I listen to podcasts, I am constantly reading.
I don't ever want to stop learning and meeting her and getting to know her has really enriched my life.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Wait, Dan, are you telling me you don't know it all at 49?
You haven't perfected the whole thing?
You haven't done it yet?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
I don't know if you're like this.
I feel like I wake up every day knowing less than I knew the day before.
I feel like the universe of knowledge is just growing so exponentially.
I feel I have so much to learn.
I never feel like I have read enough, and usually I have read more than anybody else in the room, but I always feel like I'm a little bit behind.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
I asked my friend who, as you know, recently passed, Larry King, many times I asked him, you know, what did he think the meaning of life was, and he always said the same thing, the only thing I know is that I do not know.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
I do not know.
I just read a book by Adam Grant called Think Again, The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know.
unidentified
That was great.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
And it kind of takes some pressure off you to say, like, I don't know.
I'm curious.
Let me learn.
Talk to me.
Tell me what you know.
How do you see it?
How do you feel about it?
And that kind of approach, I think, can help going back to what we started with in terms of unity.
You know, Barbara Bush had a saying that in a marriage, both people need to be willing to go 60% of the way there.
And I don't know if in our public discourse and our public policy debates, both sides aren't there yet.
They're not willing to go 60% of the way there.
And I don't know what will help us get to that point.
I don't know what the issue will be that will help get us there.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, it's almost like it has to sort of be something terrible.
Like, that's the only way we could kind of come together, like the way New York was after 9-11.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, because even the pandemic didn't really do it.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
No, if anything, it exacerbated itself.
Let's talk about the last chapter, though.
I feel like that would be a good way to wrap.
It's called Serenity, How Can You Detox, Recover, and Find Peace?
I feel like pretty much everyone's looking to find a little peace these days, that we're home more, we're online more, social media is not making us social.
The quest for peace doesn't seem to be going that well for a lot of people right now.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Well, so I wrote that chapter because the Serenity Prayer was prominent in my home growing up as part of the Lutheran Church, but also my mom went through a program called Children of Alcoholics, so that's part of the AA system, and the Serenity Prayer is very important for recovery.
And I've known a few people that have gone through Alcoholics Anonymous.
Bob Beckel, one of the first people on the Five, he did, and it really helped turn his life around.
When I think about serenity, do you know those moments, Dave, in your life, and they're usually just glimpses, when you feel like you're right exactly where you're supposed to be at the moment?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
They're rare and they're fleeting.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
It's such a gift!
And I feel like that's what God's intention was for us to be able to have more of that.
And when I mentor these young women, I find that they're nowhere close to being able to find that.
So I have lots of different suggestions in that chapter for how somebody might find it.
There's some things that work for me.
I write a lot of lists.
And if I feel like I'm being consumed with worry or anxiety on a piece of paper,
I will write my list of concerns, worries, and then I'll make two columns.
In that next column, I'll say, is this something that I have control over or not?
Mark it.
For the things that I have control over, I then, in the third column, make a little bit of a notation about what I could do about it.
And then, I learned this exercise when I was in college and pretty stressed.
I take that piece of paper and I carry it with me in my purse, in my backpack, my back pocket, wherever it might be, so that when I feel that sort of anxiety bubbling up, I can pull that back out and look at it and know, okay, wait, wait, okay, I've got a plan here for how to deal with those things.
I've also found that guided meditation for me has been very useful.
And then I would say one other thing, which is, as you said, we're quite isolated and we're on these Zooms.
And even though I love the connection, I love being able to talk to you and to see you like in the Jetsons.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
No, well, that's the irony of it, right?
It's like I didn't even know you.
I don't think I had ever.
I knew who you were, obviously, for many years, but I don't think I had done your show until.
No, we did do it in person once, a little bit before lockdown.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
You were in town.
unidentified
You were in the city.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
But in essence, we became friends through this thing, which is a very weird... You know, we've never had a drink together.
We've never had a meal together.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Let's fix that.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
It's a very weird thing.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
You know what would really help in Washington?
I feel like everyone needs to go and get drunk.
Together.
With no phones.
But like, imagine, you know, you could imagine Ted Cruz getting drunk with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
It'd probably strike up a friendship and maybe be able to get to that unity.
But anyway, the other thing that I started doing a couple of years ago was an exercise to get out of my own mind because something I remind people of here is just when you think everybody's thinking about you and you think that they're thinking negatively about you, you have to remember No one's thinking about you.
They are thinking about themselves.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, yeah.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
And also, I remember everybody's going through something.
Everybody.
Look, Dave, you're going through something.
My sister's friend, she is going through, she just had a double mastectomy.
Thankfully, looks like cancer-free, you know.
Peter and I are going through something.
Everybody's going through something.
So what I started doing is anybody that I see that I Walking by or on the subway, when I used to take the subway, people that I won't necessarily say hi to, I'll just say a little prayer for them.
So, I remember this one lady and her daughter, they were doing homework on the subway on the way home.
Please help them get home safely to the guy.
I hope that he has a really productive day at work.
I hope that she is treated well by all of her colleagues.
The guy that works in retail, I can't stand it when anybody is mean to anybody that works in customer service.
I pray that nobody's bad to him today or negative towards him today.
It kind of became a habit.
That it really helps me get out of my own head, get out of my own way, and to sort of spread this kindness because I really think that that's the way to reduce anxiety and increase your ability to be your full self that will hopefully open up opportunities and doors for promotion, raises, a change in career, or even, if you haven't met that lucky somebody yet, open your heart up to meeting somebody and making a commitment.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Well, Dana, that's the perfect ending, but I have to return the favor that you often offer me, which is to bring Clyde on your show.
Oh, let's see him.
Is Jasper, no, no, I don't need to bring Clyde on.
This is my show.
Is Jasper around or?
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
No, I'm at work, but hold on, I'm gonna get something.
Hold on.
So I went on that book tour with my Jasper book, and I bought one of these.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Oh, there you go.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
This is felt Jasper.
You've got to get a few of these.
Get a felt Clyde.
They're the best toys.
Only thing is, Jasper really wants to eat this.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Well, Jasper should be allowed to eat Jasper.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
He wants this toy so... They're kind of expensive.
But if you go on Etsy, you can send them a picture of your dog and they'll make you one.
Oh, and they'll... Even has like a little ear.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
What a world, what a world.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Dave, you're a great American and a wonderful person.
Thank you.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Right back at you.
The book is Everything Will Be Okay, and everything will be okay.
It really, it really will be.
It will be.
I look forward to seeing you in person and good luck.
I was about to say good luck with the rest of the book tour, but good luck sitting in that seat talking to other people like me, I suppose.
dana perino ▲ ● ▼
Thanks, Dave.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼
Okay, bye bye.
If you're looking for more honest and thoughtful conversations about politics instead of nonstop yelling, check out our politics playlist.
And if you want to watch full interviews on a variety of topics, watch our full episode playlist all right over here.
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