Sebastian Gorka, Sean Spicer, and Jack Murphy debate the MAGA movement's future on January 22nd, 2021. Gorka declares the GOP establishment dead, while Spicer warns against becoming a third party; Murphy argues Trump was defeated by a lack of loyal staff within captured institutions. They address tech censorship fears, with Gorka dismissing them as temporary backlash and Murphy advocating for private communities to survive "techno-corporate fascism." Ultimately, Rubin suggests this new conservative movement represents a vital "new center" rather than an extreme fringe. [Automatically generated summary]
All right, let's start with the doctor, Dr. Gorka, because you've got doctor in front of you.
And if Joe Biden's a doctor, we're all doctors.
The reason I wanted to have the three of you on basically is because not only did you and Sean work in the administration, But Jack has a similar political evolution as me.
He was a Democrat for a long time.
Jack, I'll let you speak for yourself, but basically I think you're a conservative at this point, or at least sort of a non-Democrat, let's say.
And I thought bringing the three of you guys on to discuss what the future of this thing is would be interesting.
Gorka, what do you think the future of the Republicans is?
Is it a Trump future, or are they going back to all the other guys?
Well, I'll tell you one thing, it better not be a third party, Dave, so that would be a disaster.
That's how we got Bill Clinton, when Ross Perot ran against Clinton and split the conservative vote.
Look, I listened to my sources.
I had one of the new freshman congresswomen on my show, Lauren Bobbitt, who's already created quite a name for herself, who said, on my show America First, this is Donald Trump's party now.
I don't know what he's gonna do in 2024.
I was there at Andrews Air Force Base with Sean on the morning of the inauguration.
We saw the president, saw the first lady, and he said right there in front of us,
"I will, in one shape or form or another, I will be back."
Now, whether he runs or not, I don't know.
But for the foreseeable future, he will be the conservative kingmaker.
Not only that, the MAGA movement, it's not just about him.
It's about what he came to represent.
It was remarkable.
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Well, I saw it with my own eyes.
So did Sean.
This is a man who appealed across all class structures, across all demographics.
When you go to Youngstown, Ohio, Steel Valley, and you see people from the steel industry, former Democrats whose grandparents were Democrats, screaming, you know, America first, America first, USA.
That's like Reagan.
And that has changed conservative politics inexorably.
So the GOP establishment, the Mitch McConnell type establishment, I think is dead.
And whatever this thing becomes, it has to be bigger than one man.
Sean, since he chose you at one time to represent his thoughts, Trump's thoughts that is, to the people, do you think whatever this movement now is, that we're all being told we all have to be deprogrammed and deplatformed and the rest of it, Can it survive without Trump?
Does it actually need the man or can the ideas of it survive?
And it literally guarantees a democratic majority going forward for a generation.
Parties are bigger than just ideas.
They're about mechanics.
They're about getting on ballots.
And we've seen this with the Green Party and the Libertarian Party or whatever.
There's a reason that we have a two-party system.
Part of it is just because there's an apparatus that is necessary to get on all 50 states' ballots and to be organized and to run the machinations of this.
But to get to your question, whether he plays kingmaker or candidate, that's up to Donald Trump to decide for himself.
But what Trump represented is he tapped into this feeling and sentiment that existed in America.
And it still exists.
There were 75 million people who voted for him.
And so, if you're a smart politician, you should look at what he did and what he represented and say, hey, I get that there are people out there that think Washington ignores them, that don't think that Washington gets the issues and the concerns that they have, and I want you to tap into it.
But politicians need to understand that what made Trump Trump was an authenticity and an understanding of the struggles that people go through, and you can't fake that.
So exactly to what Sean said, let's remember one thing.
I mean quite stunning that despite the calumny Despite the libel of the last four years, where 24-7 he was called a misogynist, a white supremacist, an Islamophobe, and then a Nazi, literally a Nazi, he got 10 million more votes than he did four years ago.
And that's not because of Mitch.
That's not because of Kevin McCarthy.
That's because of Donald Trump's message.
So the fact that he got more votes than any other president is the determining factor, not his personage, but the message of making America great again.
So Jack, as the new guy to the party, literally and figuratively, I feel like you've had a pretty good handle on like sort of the underbelly of the internet side of this.
Just what's going on that kind of average people are saying on Twitter and on YouTube and the rest of it.
Yeah, my, you know, my perspective is definitely more grassroots than these other two gentlemen, for sure.
And I think the first thing I want to talk about is just remembering that MAGA is an emergent network.
It is a phenomenon that bubbled up from the people, and the network elected Donald Trump to represent that network and that energy, and that energy still survives.
The MAGA energy, the MAGA network that launched Donald Trump into power is still here, and the Democrats acknowledge that.
I mean, whether or not what they did with the armed troop capital was justified on a security level or justified, in their mind, on an info-op level, they recognize the need Uh, to make a strong display, uh, in the face of 75 million people who did support the president and do support that, that, uh, the MAGA energy.
Now, my question is, uh, to the other two panelists, to Seb and Sean here is, you know, is Trump really in charge of the GOP?
I don't see it.
Uh, when, when I was, when I was looking at the stage in 2016, uh, looking at the primaries, I saw him defeat 17 of the GOP, but I think the GOP defeated Donald Trump while he was in office.
And I don't see him taking over the GOP as it stands.
I still see him contra the GOP and still battling the GOP, which is really just the uniparty.
And that's what the MAGA Energy was all about, fighting back against the corporate uniparty in cahoots with the Democrats and the GOP establishment, plus the corporations, Black Lives Matter.
And for a moment there, Antifa as well.
But that's what needs to happen here in the future, I think.
It's something I've been talking about all week, that what we saw really is just that the swamp
just kind of reconstituted itself.
The swamp just kind of loves itself.
So Sean, as a guy that lives in DC, you've been around the swamp for a long time.
When you see guys like Mitch McConnell sort of reconstituting the swamp
and now saying maybe he'll be for impeachment, which it's like, just let the guy leave at this point.
That would be my opinion.
If there's anything that's gonna be healing in this country, which I'm not sure there actually is, it's like it would start without, it would start by not doing a post-presidency impeachment.
But what do you make of what Jack just said there?
That the whole machinery is still not part of what Trump is.
So it's like the Republicans sort of still are against him in a way.
But if you're a smart leader, which apparently not all of them seem to be that smart, that they should understand that he tapped into something.
Look, Seb made the point, if Trump wasn't Doing what people wanted, his vote goal would go down.
In fact, it went up.
That would tell anybody on the Republican side, hey, he was tapping into something, and it was something that was growing, so don't be a dummy.
Understand how to do what he was doing to tap into the sediment, to understand the concerns and the issues that he was championing, and actually continue to move forward on them.
Because, I will say this, he did shape some things, though.
Some people talk about cotton, some people talk about Gates, some people talk about Greg Abbott.
I just don't see it because they're all politicians to a lesser or greater extent.
Let's just remember one thing, what happened in 2016.
And we forget this, and it's truly historic.
For the first time in the Republic's history, we chose a non-politician and a non-swamp dweller From George Washington to Barack Obama, every single one of the 44 presidents of our republic was either a retired general, a former governor, a senator or congressman.
For the first time ever, we picked a non-politician who'd never run for public office before.
And that is the future.
They don't want somebody they've seen in front of the TV cameras reading from teleprompters for the last four or 16 years.
And to be clear, to Jack's point, I said it when I was in the White House.
I said it since I left the White House.
They don't like me in the swamp for saying it, but it is patently obvious that Donald Trump became president despite the GOP, not thanks to the GOP.
And the idea that Mitch McConnell is acquiescing to this trial of a private citizen is an outrage.
And the establishment GOP Four years later, still doesn't understand what happened in 2016.
And they will pay a political penalty if they don't wake up and smell the coffee grinds.
Jack, what do you think is going on in the minds of the people that are, you know, everyone's political now, which is a very bizarre thing that everyone is hyper political and obsessed by it all the time.
And I think that's partly why everyone is so crazy and angry.
But what do you make of, like, the people that are the new ones to politics?
Like, I know you went to some of the rallies.
I was at the rally and a couple of them in Beverly Hills.
And what I liked about it was not only that people were happy and fun, but it was clear that these are not political people.
These were people who were just like, oh, there's something kind of cool and fun happening here.
What do you think those people are thinking right now?
Yeah, I think to just follow up on what was being said recently, Trump was defeated by the GOP in his term while he was president.
The biggest obstacle he faced was the GOP, was staffing, was having loyal people to carry out his plans at any of the any of the agencies in the government.
And so he lost the GOP.
The GOP is still in power.
The Democrats are still in power.
The corporate unit party is still in power.
And so who's going to be next?
What's next is somebody who can bring the power that is necessary to circumvent the political parties.
And to capture the party in the same way that Trump did.
So I would look to somebody in the future who is already bringing with them a network power.
Somebody that has their own built-in communications and distribution system, who understands persuasion, who has contacts across the country in every industry, and has a brand.
People with outside brands have to come in and take over the political apparatus in the same way that Trump did.
But again, that will also lead to additional infighting and obstruction.
And derailment of that candidate's agenda.
So that is something that we have to deal with right there.
But so are you talking about like, it's not this person specifically, but are you saying someone like it has to be someone like Elon Musk?
Like it has to be like someone who is really extraordinarily connected and powerful and has done all this stuff before in terms of building things and all that?
I mean, somebody that can bring the power to bear that's necessary to communicate directly with the American people, to get elected through a popular election, and then somehow be able to implement their network on top of or in place of the GOP institution.
Because it's the institutions that are the issue.
We need new networks to battle the captured institutions.
No, I just, the one thing that I was going to say that, you know, and I don't want to take this off the track, but I think the problem with this party is that they've got to understand, and what Trump showed, I always said, what was unique about Trump is that in Washington, D.C., there's three power centers, right?
You have the lobbyists, the journalists, and the sort of the pundits and elites that have always been used to, no matter who was the next person in line, always got sucked up to.
And Trump basically during the campaign said, listen, here's the deal.
I don't need you.
I don't need your money.
And I don't need you writing about me.
If you want to jump on the bandwagon, you're welcome to, but you know, I don't need you.
That was the first time that frankly, anybody has said that.
There is a default in the Republican party right now that I've witnessed for 30 years.
And frankly, to some degree, you know, may have flirted with this myself until I recognize that people want to be accepted.
They want the New York Times to write a puff piece about them.
They want to get invited to the cocktail parties.
And as soon as folks on the right recognize that that's never going to happen, and it's something that Donald Trump enlightened us on, that if we realize it's never going to happen, they will never accept us, they will never like us, they will never bring us into that fold, and that we need to be, you know, okay with that and say, screw it, I don't need to do that.
Once we understand that, I think we as a party can move in the right direction.
But there is such a degree of the Republican Party that wants to be accepted by this left-wing elite class that rules The social circuit and the media circuit in D.C.
I feel like I'm doing a Vulcan mind meld with Jack and Sean.
So it is stunning.
that this phenomenon still exists.
When I was in the White House, and Sean and I were the weird guys, we were the oddities,
because we didn't want the establishment to say nice stuff about us.
I mean, I said, you know, if the Washington Post ever says something nice about Sebastian Gorka, I'm failing.
I am utterly failing because they're committed to the destruction of this president and his agenda.
So, you know, they want to be loved.
There were people at my rank, deputy assistant to the president, which is pretty high.
There's 40 people of that rank in the U.S.
government.
We outrank three-star generals.
I knew people at my rank, Dave.
Who were never Trumpers inside the White House, who were there because they wanted to tick on the resume, but were actively trying to undermine the president.
So this question of bench and team, I mean, Jack is right that it has to be an outsider and a celebrity, but it has to be somebody who can fill 4,000 political appointments.
No, no, no, it's not that he didn't get rid of them.
He didn't have anybody to fill those positions.
When we came in, I went to work the day after the inauguration, Saturday, January the 21st, 8 a.m.
And we came into the building, and I'm not joking, it's not an exaggeration, There were about maybe 20 guys in senior positions, guys and gals, and I mean senior positions, who knew what MAGA meant, were loyal to MAGA, not the man, but to the message, Make America Great Again, and had the wherewithal to actually make something happen.
Then there was this gap and there were like dozens and dozens and hundreds of 23-year-olds And then there was nobody else.
There was no bench.
We were a small group of merry men.
It was like Robin Hood's insurgency took over the US government, thanks to the American people.
And then we had to fill these positions.
And what happened?
I'm going to let the dirty laundry out here.
We had to fill thousands of positions.
And what happened?
The bushy schlep came in and filled the vacuum.
The former Bush appointees, or people who weren't competent, came in for those 4,000 positions.
Where else would Donald Trump get that team?
And this is a massive problem for the next four years.
We must build the bench on the outside, and it can't come from these stinking think tanks Of so-called elitist experts here in DC.
Yeah, so that I think gets to Jack's point about you gotta have a network and you're gonna have to have done a lot of stuff before the next guy comes in.
But let's talk about the information war here and the social media component of this because there are an awful lot of mainstream people right now in New York Times, CNN, Katie Couric that we've been covering, all this stuff, all these people that are saying that guys like us We're spreading misinformation.
We should be deplatformed.
We should be banned.
We should take out Newsmax.
We should be kicked off YouTube.
There was a big article now about podcasts are the next frontier on this thing that we should all be silenced.
Jack, I know you're, you're sort of on the ground on this thing.
January 6th was a day that sort of settled it, set it in stone.
That there was an insurgency.
We've now gone from being Nazis and racists to being domestic terrorists.
We know that the Democrats are going to look to, not only, they're on an eradication mission in the first place.
So they're just looking for an excuse to double down on what they wanted to do in the first place, which is to get rid of us, which is to make sure, quote, that this never happens again.
And that's what that big display was around the inauguration, that the big display of force They want to come for us.
They're going to come for us.
And my advice to people is to take your head off the chopping block of social media.
Find a private network.
Get involved.
Put up a barrier between you and the rest of the people.
Keep your head down and build deep roots.
We are in a reconsolidation period, at least for this first year here, coming out of the four years of Trump.
We don't know exactly what's going to happen with the censorship and the online stuff.
So my advice to everybody is to find a network, a private network.
Build your own network.
Be intentional with your relationships and your associations.
Put up a wall and keep the people out that you want to keep out and put the people inside that you want to put inside and make sure it's based on your shared values.
And I think that that is a way to at least move forward for the time being.
I mean, I, if you had asked me this question six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, I would, I would think that that was, it was a nutty question.
Uh, but in light of what's happened to the conversation that's occurred over the last seven to 10 days, yeah, I'm really worried.
I think we've gotten to the point where, uh, I mean, the idea that you look at a network and a network that is on these, you know, major stations, it's pulling in close to a million people a night and, and they go, yeah, we don't like what's being said.
And by the way, the thing that's funny is, is that they never give the example.
They said Newsmax is, is just, you know, is, Part of the disinformation campaign.
I'm like, okay, tell me one thing that's been on my show.
You know, conversations with you and other people about news of the day that somehow they just don't even like the topics.
They're like, but, but wait, I just, what I don't get though, Dave, and this is what's fascinating.
Yesterday, for example, CNN 23 times said that the administration, the incoming administration was not left a vaccine plan, none.
And that they had to quote, start from scratch.
Dr. Fauci himself came out and said that that was not true.
CNN just moved on.
Why aren't we talking about deplatforming CNN?
Well, because CNN is owned by AT&T.
What does AT&T own?
They own Time Warner and DirecTV.
These guys that hold the keys in the corporate headquarters, there is no doubt in my mind, they're going to get woked.
Over and over again to the idea of canceling out, stop allowing people to do this, cancel out advertisers.
Yeah, and the best is when you see how obvious their coordination is.
So the messaging coming out of CNN on all their Twitter accounts yesterday was the Trump team was handed a non-existent plan.
That's what they all kept saying, but you can't be handed something that's non-existent.
It doesn't even make any sense on top of the fact that we know that something like 17 million people have gotten the vaccination and the states are doing a lot of it and all that stuff.
Seb, I'm guessing you're worried too, although you don't strike me as a particularly nervous type of guy, but you're worried about the hammer dropping on all of us in terms of our ability to communicate.
In the 90s, you know, I was counterculture in Washington, D.C.
I liked to do underground parties, and I was anti-establishment.
And as I grew up, I think I retained that.
And what I see from my old friends that are all still Democrats, they think they're anti-establishment, but they are the establishment now, and they're just not aware of the fact.
And they've lost all of their rebel or punk attitude that they had, and they're just towing the line.
Truly, deep down inside, I believe that they're just not informed.
And that if I could, I know it's fruitless and I know it's hopeless, but I swear if I could just get into their head just a little bit and help them see what I see, I just feel like I'm ahead of the game.
And I do believe that we did see an expansion in the Democrat to deplorable vote.
There were 9 million in 2016.
I believe that that group got bigger in this last election.
There are people that we've seen just online, on Twitter, folks that That we're anti-Trump in the first go-round, that we're convinced, united, mostly behind being anti-woke and anti-critical race theory, etc.
But I think what might happen, and Seb, you used the word fascistic.
I'm ready to declare it is a techno-corporate fascism that we live under, a uniparty united with the corporations, acting in concert to silence people, to take away their human rights, their right to free speech, to unperson them, to exile them.
when the government and the corporations are acting in tandem
Bingo.
to take away your human rights, that is fascism.
That is fascism. - Bingo.
And we need to be talking about this more often and not in the hysterical way
that the people were calling us fascist before, but in a very serious clinical way.
And I think, I'm hoping, maybe, and I still haven't extinguished the optimist in me,
that that center group, that people that went Democrat to deplorable,
the walkaway folks, that that is where we need to be focusing our energy
as chipping people off.
And here's what's going to happen, I think.
There are going to be more red pills delivered to the normal American people throughout this year.
And it's going to come in the form of critical race theory.
And it's going to come when they're attacking your children, when they're telling your eight-year-old daughter, That she needs to sit with her whiteness and suffer because of it and renounce her color and step aside and yield positions of power to people of color.
That is when the red pilling of middle America is really going to take place.
And I can see more of that coming in 2021 and beyond.
If it had gone the other way, they would not be talking about healing.
But my whole audience knows I try to leave everybody at the end of a show with something positive so they don't feel crazy, and I really feel like I gotta give it to them on a Friday.
You know, the secret lining, the silver lining here is that people like us, our network, we have what's called a faster OODA loop.
We can observe, orient, decide and act and change our course of action and adapt and implement our ingenuity in a way much more, much quicker and with much more effectiveness than the other side.
And so I believe in that power.
I believe that we are going to adapt and react.
And one of the best benefits that I've seen is that I have been urging people, and we've been creating intentional communities, of reaching out and finding people that share your values.
Find common values and build with them.
Build a community.
Build a network.
Live, work, and play with people that share your values.
They don't even have to live next door to you anymore.
Take advantage of the connectivity and reach out and find those people.
A renaissance of intentional communities across America as we OODA faster than the enemy.
And we make our way towards the next round of elections.
And two, I'm in a place where they probably hate my guts.
And what I realized in that show was that I needed to stop thinking that that was the case, because as you saw, I advanced to the quarterfinals of a show where I was horrible.
But people rallied.
There are more people.
Every time that you think that we're the 20%, if you look at the vote that Donald Trump got, we're still the 50%.
We're there.
And we've got to stop thinking that we're this minority and that there's nobody else out there.
When I told people about how important the Georgia election were, and this dovetails on what Seb was saying, people go, I'm giving up, I'm giving up.
If we mobilize and do what Jack's talking about, get out there, not be afraid of what we stand for.
Fight for our values and mobilize.
We can win.
Stop being a bunch of babies that are negative about the opportunity and the options in the future.
There is enough of us that believe in conservative values and principles that if we get out there and we fight hard and we explain why our principles and values are better for this country and our families and our communities, we will win.
unidentified
But the second that we give up and the second that we let them cancel us, they win.
Mainstream political thought has been dumbed down to the point that your analogy about dancing with the stars actually makes complete sense to me.
It really does.
It's like, you just got to do it and you see who comes along.
Guys, I really enjoyed this.
I hope you did too.
We're going to do plenty more of these, so I hope you'll join us again.
I'm going to let you guys go and then I'm going to finish up solo here.
Have a great day, guys.
I'll see you soon.
All right, everybody.
I hope you enjoyed that.
I really like these.
I feel like the energy is good.
We'll keep trying to mix up the panelists.
And yes, I promise you, I will try to get more people on the left and I will try to get more centrists and everything else.
But I do want to address that exact point for just a moment because I know it seems, oh, here he had these right-wing conservatives on, right?
And okay, it's more right-wing conservatives.
But what I'm really starting to believe, and I've been saying this for quite some time, and I think it was partly why I was supporting Trump, who I liked the ideas of maybe more than the man himself, was that the stuff that we just talked about, did any of that seem extreme to you?
Did any of that seem dangerous to you?
Did any of that seem like things that were promoting misinformation or disinformation or that were against America or your freedom or any of those things?
The answer is no.
So what's really odd Is when people say, okay, well, we should all be more in the center.
I think in essence, what's happened is that conservatives basically are the new center.
It doesn't mean that you have to be conservative, like, oh, here are the 10 conservative things, and you have to absolutely be all these things.
As you know, guys, I'm begrudgingly pro-choice, and I make that argument in my book.
That is definitely not something that is thought of as conservative.
I'm against the death penalty.
That is not something that is thought of as conservative.
There are some conservatives that are not okay with gay marriage.
I'm married to a gay dude.
I mean, there are some things.
And yet I absolutely would consider myself a new conservative.
So I think there's sort of a misnomer that, you know, everyone that had anything to do with Trump or that's on any of these channels or on Fox News, that that's somehow far right.
It's ultra, you know, this new ultra conservative.
These are Nazis and terrorists and the rest of it.
And I actually think it's most of us.
I think it's most of us that just want to live free and want to agree to disagree and find some people to talk to.
So I promise you, I will continue to find people that are, say, more left of me or more in line with some of this stuff, or that are Biden supporters, or if there's anyone at the administration that wants to talk to me, we'll reach out, by the way.
We reached out to the Trump people and we'll continue to reach out to To people at the Biden administration and all that.
But I do think that in a weird way, what we just did is the new center.
But I'd love to know your thoughts on it.
So let me know at rubenreport.locals.com.
And I really do think that Jack is correct.
Whether it's online or real life, the answer to this is figuring out what your networks are.
and not being so reliant on big tech, not being so reliant on all the things
that have always existed 'cause they're failing, right?
Social justice and all of this stuff is infecting all of these things
and that's why everything's kind of crumbling.
So figure out what your local communities are.
I mean, when I opened that freaking app, the Rubin Report app, the Locals app,
and I go into that community, it's like there are now thousands of great people