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June 27, 2020 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin

01:07:54

The NYC Exodus, CHAZ, & de Blasio’s Incompetence | Rudy Giuliani | POLITICS | Rubin Report

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rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		I am also witnessing many, many of my friends leaving.
		I just drove back from the airport earlier this morning.
		Earlier this morning.
		There were about five or six moving trucks.
		And I'm kind of counting them now because I had a friend come over last night and tell me he's moving to Florida.
		And these are basically upper middle class and wealthy people.
		They're the tax base of the city.
		And I've never wondered about, you know, since maybe I stopped being a liberal, I always ask them, why do you attack rich people so much?
unidentified		Don't you realize you need them to pay for the poor people?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Friendly reminder, everybody, to subscribe to our YouTube channel and click that notification bell so you're alerted when new videos come out.
		And joining me today is the former mayor of New York City and a special guest star of one of the best ever episodes of Seinfeld, Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
		Welcome to The Rubin Report.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, Dave.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I'm very happy to be here.
		I could spend an hour talking to you about Seinfeld and stuff you did on Saturday Night Live, but I suspect there are probably some more pressing things that you want to get to.
		But I thought what would be interesting, instead of just going into all of the stuff of today, which we will get to, is that, especially for my younger audience on YouTube that sort of know you as New York City's mayor and 9-11, that version of you, You had a whole life and a political evolution before that, that in many ways is sort of like my political evolution.
		You fought off the mafia as Attorney General and a whole bunch of stuff.
		So can we just do sort of Rudy Giuliani 101?
		I mean, really, from childhood on, and then we'll get to the topics of the day.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		I'll do it real quick.
		I was born in Brooklyn.
		Second generation Italian-American.
		I went to Catholic grammar school.
		Then I moved from Brooklyn to Long Island, which was quite common in those days, and continued in Catholic grammar school.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		What town in Long Island were you in?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in Garden City and North Belmore, Long Island, two different places in Long Island.
		But I went to high school in Brooklyn, Bishop Laughlin High School, which was a special diocesan school, in part because I wanted to be a priest in my early days.
		And kind of gave that up when I found out there were things called girls.
		And kind of didn't work with the priesthood.
		Then I went to college in the Bronx in Riverdale, Manhattan College, law school at NYU.
		Graduated law school and became a law clerk to a really fine federal judge, Lloyd McMahon, who taught me how to be a trial lawyer.
		And then I entered the U.S.
		Attorney's Office at a very young age.
		And because of his training, I sort of started off as already a Pretty experienced trial lawyer.
		Because he was a nice enough man to kind of teach you what you have to do in the courtroom.
		And I love being a trial lawyer.
		I spent about five and a half years doing that.
		Tried a hundred cases or so.
		Mafia cases, bank robbery cases, white collar cases, income tax evasion, customs fraud, just about everything you can think of that are federal crimes.
		And then I was the head of the narcotics division, which in those days was focused a lot on the French connection, the Italian-French heroin trade, the Colombian trade, all the Colombian cartel people.
		That was the first time that somebody put out a contract to kill me, Vito Genovese's My brother-in-law threatened to have me killed because I prosecuted him and he got convicted.
		The Colombian cartel threatened to slit my throat.
		But I was like 25, 26 years old and you don't, I don't know, you feel immortal at a young age.
		Then I went off to Washington to be the Chief of Staff to the Deputy Attorney General, Harold Tyler, in the Ford administration.
		And that's where I started to think about, I had left the Democratic Party as an assistant U.S.
		attorney because I was investigating a lot of corruption in city government under John Lindsay.
		And even though John Lindsay was a Republican who turned Democrat, all the people in city government were Democrats, and all these great society programs, which I kind of thought sounded nice, It looked like none of it was getting to the poor people.
		It was all in the hands of the administrator of the program, his wife, some of the crooked minority politicians in the city, who I quickly came to realize didn't really care about their community, just cared about getting rich for themselves.
		Very disillusioned, I changed my registration from Democrat to Independent.
		Then I went off and I worked for two years in the Ford administration, met a lot of Republicans, and found out that they really weren't terrible.
		My impression from New York were, you know, Republicans only care about rich people and they're really very mean.
		Turned out they were just as caring about poor people, they just had a different way of trying to move them out of poverty.
		Kind of made more sense to me that you move people out of poverty through work than welfare.
		I kind of had always a strong aggressive foreign policy with regard to the Soviets, so I was sort of a Kennedy Democrat.
		In those days, there was a fellow named Stu Jackson, a senator, who was a very hard-liner on foreign policy.
		So then I switched to being a Republican.
		I said, well, let me try the Republican Party.
		Went into law practice.
		Worked for Ronald Reagan's election.
		And Ronald Reagan made me the third-ranking official in the Justice Department.
		I did that.
		I came back to New York.
		I became the U.S.
		Attorney.
		I prosecuted the five families of the mafia, over 800 mafia people.
		Uh, a large number of Wall Street criminals, Boesky probably being the most famous one, Milken, uh, prosecuted three or four sitting congressmen, and also, um, started using the racketeering statute in a way that it hadn't been used before to break up organized crime.
		We took over the Teamsters Union, drove out organized crime.
		We took over the casinos in Las Vegas and got rid of them.
		We took over the Fulton Fish Market.
		The whole industry, the garment industry, entertainment industry.
		Strangely, the Mafia controlled the gay bars in New York.
		And a combination of our work and then the advent of HIV AIDS got rid of those places.
		But the Mafia owned those bars for purposes of extortion.
		He owned every single one.
		You couldn't open a gay bar in New York and not have Vito Genovese and his number two guy walk in on you and tell you that he owned half the bar.
		You'd say, why?
		And they'd say, because if we don't, we'll break your kneecap.
		So we got them out of there.
		And I had a very, and then I guess the thing that made me famous as the mayor was I prosecuted a number of the high-level officials in the Contra administration, his chief political allies, and proved that they were involved in a multi-million dollar bribery scheme to collect fines and divert them to their own pocketbooks to the tune of about 15 or 20 million dollars a year.
unidentified		Jeez.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		That gave me a great deal of name recognition.
		And I got the crazy idea of running for mayor.
		All my friends told me I was nuts.
		A Republican couldn't win.
		I thought maybe I was nuts, but I was young enough to try to be nuts and find out if I would enjoy politics.
		I was lucky enough to get David Garth as my political advisor.
		I started off 27 points behind.
		I lost by two.
		David taught me how to be a political candidate.
		And it was the best showing a Republican had made in 40 years since LaGuardia.
		I got 48% of the vote.
		And I guess if I hadn't gotten 20, I'd have given up, but at 48% of the vote, I said to myself, maybe I can have another chance to do this.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		And then you eventually decided to do it again, and the rest is history.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		And then four years later, four years later, I did it again, and I won by a very narrow margin, about 3%.
		And then I ran for re-election four years later, and I won by a landslide.
		And I was very fortunate.
		I made a lot of promises.
		I really went into the job with the notion that this is the first Republican in two generations.
		I might be the last Republican mayor of New York.
		Why not just do everything I wanted to do?
		And if it worked, I'd be a hero.
		And if it didn't, they'd throw me out.
		And maybe 20 years later, they'd realize I was trying to do the right thing.
		I really had that attitude.
		So I cut city government to what it should be, by about 20%.
		I laid off enormous numbers of people.
		I decreased everything in city government, interestingly, but the police department, because I had a couple of years before I was mayor, we had 2,200 murders.
		And we had about 1.1 million people on welfare.
		We had 10.5% on employment.
		And we had a deficit that was said to be about $700 million.
		It really was $1.4 billion.
		And we had a situation where 75% of the people in the city wanted to leave.
		So I ran on very much the thing that Donald Trump used four years ago, which I might say I kind of suggested he used.
		I said, you can't do any worse.
		How can New York City be any worse than leading the country in crime, murder, Violent crime, white-collar crime, organized crime, drugs.
		We were ahead in everything.
		How can we be any worse than, you know, 1.1 million people not working, being supported by the other people who were working?
		No Fortune 500 company in 20 years had come to New York, and about 20 had moved out.
		And our tax base was getting shrunk.
		Even movies wouldn't be made in New York anymore.
		They were making the New York movies in Toronto.
		Because they were too expensive to make in New York and too dangerous.
		So I said, give me a chance.
		I know everything's wrong with it.
		I have 12 years of experience putting all the bad guys in jail.
		Maybe I can turn the knowledge of everything that's wrong with it into straightening it out.
unidentified		And I spent three years working out very specific plans to do that.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, all right.
		So there's a couple of different ways we could go there.
		So first off, I mentioned to you when I was on your podcast a couple of days ago, we have a sort of similar history, not only because of the political evolution of sort of Democrat, independent, to what, you know, I would say I'm sort of like a modern conservative at this point, which I think is sort of what you are.
		Even, you know, we're sort of in the same spot, even on abortion, which is not thought of as a conservative position.
		Specifically.
		But the guy whose name you actually didn't mention in there was the guy that you replaced as mayor, which was David Dinkins, who was a far-left progressive.
		And he basically is the one that sort of wrecked New York City.
		And I remember going to New York City.
		My grandparents lived there, and my great-grandparents lived there.
		And you couldn't go to Times Square.
		And you cleaned all of that You cleaned all of that stuff up.
		And I think a lot of people right now are seeing what de Blasio is doing with many of the same ideas as David Dinkins and all these, you know, the big government progressives.
		They're seeing that.
		And I do sense that maybe, maybe there's another Rudy Giuliani in the waiting, but I got to back up to something else because you're a second, you're a second generation Italian American and you went after the mafia.
		So you got to explain that a little bit more.
		How did that, just in terms of your own ethnicity and identity, how was that?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I knew the Mafia from growing up in Brooklyn and from being in an Italian family.
		I was not one of those people where you had to tell me, you know, what is the Mafia?
		I knew what it was.
		I knew its history from the Black Hand when the Italian-American immigrants first came to this country at the turn of the century.
		The Black Hand would prey on them.
		I remember stories in my family that my grandfather, who ran a large, large tavern in Coney Island, several times he was required to pay money to the mafia.
		Once when he didn't, they burned part of the store.
		I was told what bullies they are, how terrible they are.
		So I had an impression of them as being very bad for the Italian people.
		And then obviously found out, as I got older, that there was also a tremendous prejudice that every Italian was part of the Mafia.
		Including, at times, I would be told that I was part of the Mafia.
		So it created both sets of problems.
		When I became an assistant United States Attorney, it wasn't really to pursue the Mafia.
		It was to be a trial lawyer.
		That's what I always wanted to be all my life.
		And to try all different kinds of crimes.
		But it just so happened that that was the era in which the FBI was just beginning to really go after the Mafia.
		J. Edgar Hoover had always preferred to go after Communists than the Mafia.
		And I tried one big Mafia case as a young lawyer against a fellow named Vito Gazzia.
		His name was actually, his nickname was Peter.
		They all have nicknames.
		He was the son-in-law of Vito Genovese.
		And we were allowed to prosecute him because he cheated on Vito's sister.
		So Vito basically let the witnesses, gave witnesses the permission to testify against him.
		And I had no idea why I had all these witnesses testifying against this big mafia guy.
		In the middle of the trial he threatened to kill me.
		Which, because he was a little bit nuts.
		So for the first time, I had to have protection.
		And I convicted him, and it was a big conviction.
		But I think I had that conviction, you know, thanks to Vito, who was willing to tell three or four of his loan shark victims, it's okay to testify against my brother-in-law because he's screwing around on my sister.
		And then I left.
		I went to Washington.
		I was one of the people that helped establish the FISA court.
		So, when we litigate all this stuff about the FISA Court, Joe DeGeneva, who you see on television and I, were the two lawyers who helped develop the FISA Court.
		I dealt with the church committee, I learned Washington, came back to New York, I was in law practice, and then I became the third-ranking official in the Justice Department under Ronald Reagan, and that's where I really became interested in politics, because Reagan was, to me, you know, bigger than life.
		Just a great, great man.
		Just a natural president, natural leader.
		And unbelievably underestimated, much like our present president.
		And a lot of his success came from being underestimated.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so we'll get to our current president in a little bit.
		Obviously, you've talked about what 9-11 was like many, many times.
		So maybe sort of briefly, I told you this the other day, I lived in New York City on the Upper East Side during 9-11.
		My dad worked in the Garment Center.
		He saw the second plane hit.
		I had my grandma live there, plenty of family there.
		We were all there.
		And truly one of the things that I remember most, beyond the tangible stuff,
		the smell that you could smell for weeks and all of that, is that you calmed everybody down
		and showed actual true leadership in a time when we needed it in an unimaginable way.
		[BLANK_AUDIO]
		Do you, in many ways, feel like everything that you just laid out in these few minutes sort of led you to that moment?
		Yeah.
		I mean, when you got the call, I mean, were you just ready to be a leader in that moment?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, strange to say, but yes.
		And to make it even more direct, I had just finished the first draft of a book called Leadership.
		Somehow, about a year before, I've been wanting to write a book forever and ever.
		I had started three different books.
		I could never figure out exactly what I wanted to write about.
		And somehow, about a year before, I got the idea that I'd write about leadership, because I had been in a lot of different leadership positions, both in government and in business.
		I ran a coal mine once, which is an altogether different story, and got it out of bankruptcy.
		So I thought I would write about how I was able to do that.
		What, at least the lessons that I use to teach myself a new business, I have a sort of general feeling that I'd rather have a great manager than a subject matter expert in any situation.
		Because management skills are sometimes harder to find than subject matter expertise.
		So, the book talks about 20 lessons or so on leadership.
		So by the time September 11 happened, it was in a final draft form.
		It was sitting in my desk.
		I was going to publish it when I left the mayor's office.
		And probably the day before September 11, I was pretty arrogant.
		If you had asked me, you know, could you handle an emergency, I'd say, of course.
		I mean, I've been the mayor of New York.
		It's a crisis a week, it's an emergency a month, and it's a catastrophic emergency every six months.
		I mean, we had hurricanes, we had airplane crashes, we had subway derailments, we had hostage situations, we had terrorist attacks.
		I mean, every day was something.
		And I had developed the first Mayor's Office of Emergency Management because we had had a terrorist attack the year before I came into office in 1993.
		Probably another reason that elected me is we were very poorly prepared for that.
		I established a special mayor's office of emergency management, and all they did was train us on how to get ready for nuclear attack, sarin gas, which was a big problem back then, anthrax, which we actually did get attacked with during 9-11.
		We went through West Nile virus.
		People don't remember that, but it was kind of a mini form of the pandemic that we just went through.
		So we were very skilled.
		When I say we, I had a great team.
		We were very skilled in emergency management.
		All of a sudden, 9-11 happens.
		I arrive there.
		I look at the scene.
		I see a man throw himself out of the 100th floor, and I turn to my police commissioner, Bernie Carrick, and I say, Bernie, we're not prepared for this.
		Whatever we did, this challenges everything we know, and we're going to have to use our instincts here.
		We got 24 plans for emergencies.
		We don't have one that says airplanes crashing into buildings like torpedoes.
		And we had to make it up as we moved along.
		But the fact that we had that experience kind of made it possible for us to do that, I think, a little better than might have been done if we hadn't had that experience.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I know this is probably a little bit of an odd question, but did you realize at the time how important just sort of remaining, just the optics of being in charge and being calm in it were?
		Because that, you know, it felt like, I mean I remember being there, it felt like the world was over or nothing even remotely close to normal was ever going to come back.
		And every time I turned on CNN, you were there and you were in the streets or wherever you were, and it was like, oh, somebody's trying to make some sense of this thing.
		Somebody's in charge.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I knew that on a small scale.
		I mean, I didn't realize the enormity of it right away.
		I thought of it as, since I had done so many emergencies in the city, it began for me as gigantic, big, way beyond anything we did before, but involving my city.
		But, I mean, part of handling an emergency is you control your emotions, and no matter how confused you are, no matter how afraid you are, and no matter how upset you are about somebody dying, you just control it.
		And you do a... I call it a Scarlet O'Hara.
		I'll think about it tomorrow.
		You know, I remember when I was first told that Father Judge died.
		He was the first person whose body we found.
		Father Judge was my close friend for eight years.
		He was the person that taught me how to deal with death the first time I lost three firefighters.
		He was an extraordinary Franciscan priest.
		I found out that he died almost simultaneously with my wanting to call my police fire commissioner and say, go get Father Judge, I need him.
		Meaning I needed him for advice on how to explain to people, at that point we thought 12,000 people were dead.
		And as I'm thinking that, my police, my fire commissioner walks in, Tom Von Eppen, and he says, Mayor, we got a real problem.
		They're carrying Father Judge's body out of Out of the rubble.
		They're taking him over to St.
		Peter's Church.
		That is he dead?
		He said yes.
		And I would say if it hadn't been a... If I hadn't been in the middle of it having to run it, I probably would have gone in a room and cried for about 10 minutes.
		Because he was so important to me.
		But I had to say to myself... Okay.
		Contain it.
		Stop it.
		You'll figure this out.
		You'll figure this out tonight.
		You'll figure out what he taught you and you'll use it tonight.
		So I had been trained like that from earlier emergencies that you just don't show it.
		You put aside the emotion and you think about what's the next practical thing that you have to do in order to keep this thing under control.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you did.
		We could obviously spend the whole hour talking about this.
		I just have one other thing on this and then we'll move on to some other things.
		Because right now we live in such a time where it seems like everyone's so polarized and so hating and all of that.
		And New York City has the The idea that we all hate each other and you know I never found New York City to be like that actually we're kind of rough on the outside but if you ask anyone for directions they're happy to talk to you usually but I do remember for a few months after 9-11 there was like a really special feeling
		On the street.
		I remember, actually, I told you I lived on the Upper East, and I went to play basketball at the courts right by Gracie Mansion on 90th and York.
		And it was a few, maybe, yeah, maybe two or three weeks after 9-11, and we were playing basketball, and you could still smell the soot in the air and all that, and two guys got into a fight, and they were about to punch each other.
		Like, it was about to happen, and they both started crying.
		And basically everyone on the court started crying at the same, you know, all kind of teared up at the same time.
		That there was something so special about that.
		And I wonder, well, can you just talk about that feeling after?
		And also, do you think there's a chance we can ever get back to something like that for as crazy as things seem right now?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		I hope that's still there, Dave.
		I hope so.
		It was an extraordinary, I'd say, three, four weeks.
		It was like the world had changed.
		We were all friends.
		And by all friends, I mean Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer, And George Bush and the Democratic congressman and the Republican congressman, they came as a group.
		I took them on a tour as a group.
		These are people that nowadays, you know, are all trying to put each other in jail.
		And all they were interested in was, legitimately interested in, is how can, you know, how can we help?
		How can we get out of this?
		How can we, how can we learn from it?
		Very constructive.
		I mean, I got more offers of help than I needed.
		Then I got two very, I got two really terrific calls, one from the governor of Florida, Jeb Bush, and the other from the mayor of Chicago, Mayor Daley.
		And they both wanted to know if they could send observers to watch so that they could develop an emergency management office like we had.
		But when it happens to them, and they didn't say if it happens to them, instead, when it happens to them.
		And I thought that was a very, very, very intelligent decision to make looking into the future.
		Then a few others did that.
		I think I've tried to think of what's the difference between that and then the pandemic where.
		There's a certain amount of unity that came out of it, but not for very long, and it quickly developed into almost a political thing.
		Into a political thing, I think, not almost.
		First of all, I think the difference is that an attack on your country By a specific group of foreigners or enemy is a very very jarring thing that does bring you together.
		It's like somebody you're feuding with your family members and you're all at home fighting and then all of a sudden people want to attack your house.
		And take the entire house from the entire family.
		I think you get over the feuding.
		You put it aside for the same cause.
		I think a thing like the pandemic is more diffused.
		There was so many different explanations for it.
		There was so much confusion about it and contradiction about it.
		And then right away, the attempt to make political gain on it.
		I mean, it didn't take a week or so.
		Of course, I see it from Republican eyes, but for Schumer and Pelosi to say that Trump wasn't handling it right, and he didn't pick it up right away.
		Of course, ignoring the fact that they didn't either.
		He picked it up before they did, right?
		She was inviting people to go out, and the idiot mayor here in the city, for two weeks after Trump declared it was an emergency, was telling people to go out.
		So there was plenty of political blame to go around.
		Now, September 11, there probably was that political blame also.
		But everybody stopped it and said, you know, it's stupid.
		And all that political blame was stupid.
		Pelosi didn't cause the pandemic, and neither did Trump, and neither did Schumer or Cuomo.
		China did.
		China caused it.
		And then we all reacted to something that was extraordinary, something new, something we didn't know about.
		How could they have reacted to it properly?
		They didn't know what this virus was.
		How was Fauci?
		Everyone says, well, Fauci had about three different views on it.
		Well, he did, but he didn't know what it was.
		He may be a genius, but he's not God.
		The same thing with September 11.
		People would criticize the reaction to it, and I'd say, geez, everybody's doing the best they can.
		This is something we never faced before.
		So, you know, I think we're doing a pretty good job for something we didn't face before.
		That existed with September 11th.
		It doesn't exist now.
		We go after the pettiest little thing.
		Right away.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a pretty scary premise that what we need, potentially, to bring us together is the unspeakable.
		But, you know, a few years after you left and you were no longer mayor, I don't think a lot of people remember that you actually were going to run for senator, or you started running for senator from New York, against Hillary Clinton.
		I was going to run.
		Yeah, you were diagnosed with prostate cancer and then Rick Lazio, who I think was just a local politician in Long Island if I'm not mistaken, he stepped in and Hillary obviously won.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Rick was the member of Congress.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		He was a member of Congress.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		A member of Congress.
		Right.
		But obviously, he didn't make major waves where I think with you and Hillary, it would have been a real battle.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		It would have been a great race.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Do you ever think about that, that regardless of whether you would have won or lost, that history could have absolutely changed because of that election?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		It could have.
		I mean, it could have changed, sure.
		Yeah, I mean, yes.
		Sure, you think about it.
		But I'm not, I'm not, I don't dwell a lot on the things that didn't happen.
		I sort of dwell on the things that did happen, and did they happen right or wrong, and if they happen wrong, how do we adjust them?
		So it happened, it was something that I wasn't meant to do, and then I did run, I did run for president to try to run against her again, and I lost and she lost, so we never did get to run against each other.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Do you regret the, well, I guess I don't even have to ask this question, because you don't dwell on things, but you sort of had this strategy that you were gonna wait sort of for the big stuff till Florida, and then it just didn't happen.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		But I guess I don't have to ask you if you regret it, because you don't dwell.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't regret it.
		I actually think when I look back on it, two things make it easy.
		One, I think the strategy would not have worked no matter how we did it.
		I was too moderate a Republican For them to nominate.
		Look, I'm the last nominee to try to become the Republican candidate for president who's at all pro-choice.
		And I'm, you know, three months pro-choice.
		Yeah.
		I'm one of those people who is pro-life individually, but I am willing to say that other people have different moral views about this, and a woman should have a three-month period in which to decide whether or not You know, she can have the baby.
		I don't like that.
		I wish it were different.
		I offer, when I was mayor, I would offer, and the other side would get very angry, I'd offer adoption as an alternative.
		But then, ultimately, I think it's the woman's choice.
		And finally, I can't find it in my heart to put people in jail for it, which is the only way you can enforce it.
		Now, the whole abortion debate has become, like, crazy, like everything else has, because now we're talking about abortion in the eighth month, and we have this crazy governor in Virginia who is talking about abortion after the baby's born.
		I don't know if he's stupid, and he didn't know what he said, and it's too stubborn to go back on it, or if he really means that you should get a waiting period So that the doctor and the mother can talk over what to do with the baby.
		There's nothing you can do with the baby, except commit murder.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah, well, it's interesting, and I'm glad you mentioned that, and I know you read my book.
		I take the 12-week also, so the three-month position, and that, people will say to me, well, Dave, you seem to align with the conservatives on so many issues.
		This is the one that you don't really align with them on, and I'm actually fine with that, because I always find that the conservatives that disagree with us on this, they're always willing to talk about it respectfully.
		Do you ever find that they won't talk about it respectfully, versus on the other side, where if you don't agree, you're done?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure it was always that way, but the way it is broken down now, and I hope this isn't my own prejudice, I find far more ability within the conservative movement, Republican movement, to talk about our disagreements without anger.
		Than on the Democratic side.
		For example, when I was running, Mike Huckabee and I were running against each other.
		And after one debate, I think it was the third or fourth debate, and we're good friends, he said to me, you know, Mayor, I'm a minister, and I have trouble even with your narrow pro-choice position.
		It would be hard for me if I dropped out to endorse you in the primary.
		Although I have to think, he gave me some reasons why he thought maybe I was the best candidate other than him.
		And I said, well, Mike, I'm very impressed with you, too.
		He said, and the reason I would endorse you is because you're honest about it.
		And he contrasted me with Romney, who he said had changed his position on everything.
		Romney had been pro-choice.
		He became completely pro-life.
		Romney had been for gun control.
		He became a lifetime member of the NRA.
		Romney was for gay rights.
		Romney was then totally against even basic gay rights.
		Not even gay marriage or just, you know, he didn't want gay rights to be included in any of the civil rights laws that we had.
		And he had signed a similar bill, like I did, that allowed for partnership laws.
		Before marriage, one of the things that was done was you could, you know, you could protect yourself legally by becoming a civil partner.
		And I think I was the second A second official in America to sign that.
		And interestingly, that never caused me problems in the Republican Party.
		I used to get endorsed every time I ran by the gay Republican group called the Log Cabin Club.
		And it was never as hot-button an issue as abortion.
		And I think when you see how it played out, it played out without as much political division.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so let's move forward to sort of what's going on today, because there's a lot of stuff happening in our cities.
		I know you're no fan of your current mayor, even though you still live in New York City, but de Blasio seemingly has done a series of things that are the exact things that you were trying to clean up when you became mayor.
		So can you talk a little bit about what it's like to live in a city that you love, that you were the mayor of, to watch it go backwards?
		And as you know, I mentioned this the other day, but at times in my family's history, we had dozens.
		I think at one time, something around 50 family members at one time that lived in New York City.
		We now have one person left.
		My sister and her husband and two kids just left over the last two months.
		I now have one second cousin left.
		That's it.
		Well, first of all, it's the saddest I've ever been about New York City.
		It kills me to say that.
		But can you talk about what's going on in New York City right now and maybe what you
		would do to turn around some of this stuff?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Well first of all, it's the saddest I've ever been about New York City.
		I'm much more down about it than I was, let's say, when I ran or even when I was U.S. Attorney.
		Attorney.
		I mean, when I was U.S.
		Attorney, I wasn't sure I wanted to run for mayor.
		But I was seeing all the things that were wrong with New York City.
		That's when the 2,000 murders a year were taking place.
		The mafia had control of almost every business in this city.
		I mean, you couldn't build a building.
		You couldn't have your garbage taken out without paying.
		But I always felt there were solutions to this.
		There were things that we could do.
		And I always felt there was the will there to change it.
		Now I'm not, maybe it's because I'm not as involved in politics and I don't go to the local groups as much.
		I don't feel that same desire to change it, or there's almost a hopelessness.
		And I am also witnessing many, many of my friends leaving.
		I just drove back from the airport earlier this morning, earlier this morning.
		There were about five or six moving trucks.
		And I'm kind of counting them now because I had a friend come over last night, tell me he's moving to Florida.
		And these are basically upper middle class and wealthy people.
		They're the tax base of the city.
		And I've never wondered about, you know, since maybe I stopped being a liberal, I always ask them, why do you attack rich people so much?
		Don't you realize you need them to pay for the poor people?
		And when I was the mayor of the city, My budget, the budget in New York City is, you know, larger than all but about 10 states.
		I need a tremendous amount of money to take care of Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, aid for children, aid for battered children, all the things we do, the public hospital system.
		New York City provides universal health care through its public hospital system.
		Only place in America I think that does that, and we've been doing it for 120 years.
		So our bills are very high.
		So who pays those bills?
		Wall Street?
		All those beautiful apartments you see on Park Avenue and Fifth Avenue and on the West Side now?
		Every time a new area gentrified and the tax base started to go up, I would see it as, I can do more for people.
		I can do more to make this city a little more balanced in terms of rich and poor, and a little more opportunity for people to move out of poverty, because for me, there's no question that capitalism is the only way out of poverty.
		The rest of it is false.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So what would you do when, you know, like little things like that, you can now jump a turnstile at the subway and, you know, they won't find you, they won't stop you.
		And then now we see, I mean, there's videos every day on Twitter, you see 20 people do it at once.
		Kids just open up the door, you know, that the handicap accessible door and just let tons of people in.
		That in many ways, De Blasio's plans, which sort of sound right, oh, we wanna help people that are poor, that's always how it's sold, actually encourage lawlessness.
		And then, really, let's talk about just the rioting that's happening all over the city.
		I've got a friend who lives on Spring Street who has abandoned New York City.
		He's got a great apartment.
		He hasn't been there in months, and his friend took a video from his apartment, and all hell was breaking loose.
		I mean, it truly looked like a third world country.
		New York City.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		You know, when I was a prosecutor for many, many years, 16, 17, 18 years, I was a federal prosecutor, which meant I always tried very big cases.
		My cases, you don't try the small cases.
		As a local prosecutor, you'll try the murder case and the theft case.
		Federal prosecutor, you're trying organized crime, you're trying very, very intricate financial fraud, high enough levels so it arises to federal crime.
		I was not a natural proponent of the broken windows theory.
		It didn't even make sense to me when it was first told to me.
		Because I always thought we paid too much attention to the small things, not enough attention to the big crime.
		And it was taught to me by, about 1981, when I was the Associate Attorney General of the United States, we established a Commission on Violent Crime, and Professor James Q. Wilson was the Vice Chair of it.
		And I got very close to Professor Wilson, who developed this theory at Harvard with Professor Kaelin.
		What he tried to explain to me was, first of all, you're not an expert on street crime.
		I'm going to make you one.
		You're an expert on high-level crime.
		Even mafia crime is high-level crime.
		Let's take a look at street crime.
		That's what you did for two years.
		He said an awful lot of it has to do with what the young people see in the community.
		He said, let's make it really simple.
		If they see a lawful community, Where the expectation is that you don't ruin other people's property by putting a graffiti all over it.
		That you have to pay when you go through the turnstile.
		If you take something from someone, you have to give it back, or there are punishments for that.
		He said if a society is based on that, you have very little big crime.
		Reverse it.
		If a society looks like your New York, Where everything is filled with graffiti as if somebody's property doesn't mean anything.
		Where you don't have to pay for the turnstile.
		Where you can spit on the sidewalk.
		Where you can urinate in the street.
		Where you can do anything you want.
		The attitude begins at a very early age that there are no limits.
		There are no restrictions.
		And by the time we start to get to the big crime, it's really too hard to deal with.
		So, I even translated that into my theory of how you stop a riot, which they failed to do this time, and we never failed to do it.
		You stop a riot before it is a riot.
		You anticipate.
		You see a protest.
		Wonderful things, protests.
		People have a right to call me names, call you names, whatever they want to do.
		But I used to...
		I used to give him a lecture because Jenkins had so many protests, I just had to stop it cold.
		I wasn't going to have any.
		So I gave a speech and I said, let's understand each other.
		You can have all the protests you want.
		I'm pro-First Amendment.
		You can do anything you want protesting.
		However, the minute you throw a rock, you're going to go to jail.
		You're not going to get arrested.
		You're going to go to Rikers Island.
		I'll let you sit there for a day before I even take you for a judge.
		If you scratch a car, you're gonna get arrested.
		If you burn anything, I'm gonna try to put you in jail for a long time.
		And if you physically harm someone, we're talking five, six, seven, eight years.
		And if you're a juvenile, I won't treat you as a juvenile.
		Treat you as an adult.
		So, I'm gonna be really, really nice to you if you have a peaceful protest.
		I'm gonna protect you.
		I'm gonna make it easy for you to do it.
		And I don't really care what you say.
		You can call me a Nazi, you can call me whatever you want, but it isn't going to be the last act of criminality.
		It's the first one we're going to go after, because David Dinkins had a theory he called venting, and it caused the Crown Heights and the Washington Heights riots.
		They let it go on for three days, and by the time Ray Kelly had to solve it in Crown Heights, many, many Jewish people had been, one had been killed, many had been beaten, it was kind of a pogrom.
		The same thing in Washington Heights.
		And that's essentially what happened to us, you know, in all those democratic cities.
		In Minnesota, they didn't enforce the law for three or four days.
		In New York, I mean, I have pictures of people going into stores, walking out with television, walking out with liquor, and the cops are watching.
		Cops are not observers of crime.
	They're not there to record the crime.
	They're there to stop it.
	Can you talk a little bit about the tension between the cops?
	I maintain that these riots in part were caused by the boy mayor of Minneapolis who let them take over the police precinct.
	Once he let them take over a police precinct That affects everybody all over the country.
	All these Antifa groups, Black Lives Matter groups.
	Man, let's see if we can push our police department like that.
	And what they found were, and I say this not to be partisan, just to be accurate, they found that to be true in democratic cities.
	The Democratic mayors were afraid to confront them because they were afraid of the base going against them.
	They made a political calculation about the enforcement of the law rather than protecting their citizens.
	That's disgraceful.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Can you talk a little bit about the tension that exists right now between the New York Police Department and de Blasio?
		Because I've got a couple of contacts there who, I mean, they're ready to revolt against the guy.
		Like, it is an extraordinary mess right now.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		They believe that his incompetence puts their lives at risk.
		They believe that his big mouth, his condemning of them.
		This goes back to the very beginning with two police officers called Ramos and Lou when there were riots in Baltimore.
		And de Blasio, shooting his big mouth off, said something about our police department also having problems of racism.
		He didn't reflect on the fact that his police department is not a majority white police department anymore.
		That combination of Dinkins, Koch, and me, we gave Bloomberg a non-majority anything police department, and Bloomberg made it even better.
		And we were all pretty proud of that.
		But instead of making that point, which might have helped keep the problem away from us, he wants to put us in with, you know, If there are racist police departments, racist police departments.
		Within a few days of that, a crazy man from Baltimore comes up to New York, two police officers, Ramos and Lewis, sitting there guarding a housing development, protecting black people, and the guy puts a bullet in the back of both of their heads.
		So the police department surmised, whether fair or not is, why would he have thought of New York if Big Mouth hadn't made this statement?
		And that's the time they turned their back on him, told him they didn't want him coming to the funeral, didn't want him coming to the... And then it's been a series of unfortunate statements that he'll say he had to teach his son how to deal with the danger presented to him by the New York City Police Department.
		He didn't mention the fact that he really should have taught his son how to deal with the danger presented to him by other black young men.
		I mean, the police department, his chance of being Touched by the police department, in comparison to being killed by a black man in New York, you know, is less than 1%, as opposed to 75% of the murder victims in New York City are black.
		And 75% of the murderers are black.
		So, I mean, you gotta be a stupid father just to train your son to worry about the police, when by a factor of about 50 to 1, he's much more likely to be killed by another young black man.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Do you think the average New Yorker is waking up to this and seeing the chaos on the streets and everything you're talking about?
		Yeah?
		Do you think a Republican or a conservative could ever win in New York again?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		We're at the point where Republican, Independent, or Reform Democrat, you know, somebody that's completely removed from the political machine, It's so helpful that I could not have done what I did in New York had I been a Democrat.
		I owe no one a darn thing.
		Nothing.
		I could get rid of 20,000 people in city government and the unions could go crazy.
		None of them supported me.
		I didn't expect them to support me in the future.
		I think I would have done it anyway, but I'm not sure.
		It takes a lot of courage to do that.
		But I had to make so few compromises, if any, to become mayor that, I mean, I guess I didn't think I'd even be mayor.
		So I was like free as a bird to do what I wanted.
		And the few people that did help me, they really were helping me because they were so fed up with the city.
		The one thing they wanted from me, I knew if I reduced crime, I was gonna be a successful mayor.
		I knew I was a one-issue mayor.
		I also knew if I didn't reduce crime, they'd throw me out.
		Now, we turned out to do a lot of other things.
		We reduced welfare by 600,000 people.
		We got rid of homelessness.
		We set up a whole new thing for administration for children's services and dealt with domestic violence much, much better than ever before.
		And we reduced taxes by 35%, which had never been done in New York City.
		My first tax reduction was only 3%.
		My deputy mayor came to me and he said, Mayor, you set a record for tax reduction.
		I said, Peter, that's impossible.
unidentified		Only 3%.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		He was my best friend.
		He also laughed at me.
		He said, it's the only tax reduction ever.
		Even LaGuardia was a liberal.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		That tells you everything you need to know.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		We did a lot of remarkable things, but the crime reduction was the thing that made everything possible.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Once they saw we could do the impossible, they had confidence in us to do the normal political things that could be done.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		If you were mayor of Seattle right now, and there was an autonomous zone, or whatever they're calling it.
		It gets renamed every day, right?
		But there was a zone in your city that was in effect a lawless zone that police cannot go to in any effective way, that people can do whatever they want.
		They've taken over stores and public parks and everything else.
		What would you do today?
		Because the mayor, in effect, she's basically saying, it's lawful, it's fine, and Trump, stay out of the way.
		And in many ways, I think she's trying to set up, I think between her and Inslee, the governor of Washington, they're trying to set up a trap.
		They're showing, hey, we progressives let anyone do whatever they want, so the whole place is gonna crumble, and Trump's gonna have to send in troops or the National Guard or something, and then they'll say, see?
		He's the exact authoritarian we always said he was.
		What would you do if you were the mayor?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		First of all, it's inconceivable to me that we'd be at that point.
		Because the first time they put up a barricade and my police couldn't go in would be the last time they did it.
		They'd all be sitting in jail then.
		So, they wouldn't be around.
		If I had to come in now, if they put me in charge of that city right now, with the barricades there, I would make an assessment of what I needed, To get rid of them, and I would get rid of them at the earliest possible moment.
		And I would tell them, I think, if I were you, I would leave, because it's going to be much more pleasant if you leave than if I have to make you leave.
		But don't mess around with me, because I'm not joking.
		I'm not one of these silly, wussy liberal mayors.
		Like, make my day.
		Give me a chance to get you out of there, and I'll get you out of there.
		You're not paying taxes.
		You're not helping my city?
		You're smoking dope like crazy?
		Maybe I'd send DEA in first, and wipe out the drug deal.
		Then I'd get about half of them out, and it'd be easier.
		In fact, I think maybe if I were the US Attorney there, I would send the Drug Enforcement Administration in, and do a major raid, and get all the cocaine, meth, Marijuana.
		I know it's legal in Washington, not legal in the United States of America.
		Sometimes, you know, when you deal with organized crime, you've got to take advantage of laws like the tax evasion laws in order to accomplish something.
		But if you want to make the problem easier for the uniformed police officer, go take a look at all the federal crimes they're committing and go in with a federal task force and arrest them.
		Drug Enforcement Administration is a tough outfit.
		I don't think they've encountered something like this.
		If they've been policed by the Seattle Police, they haven't encountered the Drug Enforcement Administration.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		It's a different animal.
		So I wanna shift to Trump a little bit because obviously you guys are friends, you have a history.
		So I wanna know a little bit about just the history of when he was just a real estate developer before he was even a reality TV host, but what that was like when you were mayor and you knew him.
		But also I mentioned this to you last week that when I was at Mar-a-Lago right before Christmas, you guys were sitting at the table right next to us.
		Unfortunately, I didn't get to say hi to you, but this was right when impeachment was blowing up.
		And everybody in the news was saying, the walls are closing in, Trump's freaking out, this whole thing.
		But I'm watching the two of you out of the corner of my eye.
		Trump has no tie on.
		You guys are laughing up a storm, having a ball, and everybody's saying the guy's freaking out.
		And then I had a very nice exchange with him.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Dave, I don't know where that came from.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a little bit about Trump.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, he never freaked out during the whole experience.
		There's even an article in the Washington Post.
		I mean, if you want to talk about fake news, there's an article that one day Jay Sekulow, who was my co-counsel, and I were there with several other lawyers.
		And the president had lost it, and he started throwing papers around, and he threw something at Jane Raskin, who was one of our lawyers.
		We get back to our office and the Washington Post has this story.
		Well, first of all, he didn't throw anything around.
		Number two, Jane wasn't even at the meeting.
		There were no women at the meeting.
		But the reporter wanted it that he, like he assaulted a woman.
		It wouldn't have been, I said, why don't you make it he threw it at me?
		At least I was there.
		He didn't throw it at me.
		But you can say he threw it at me.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they don't like, they don't like you.
		So if he threw something at you.
		So they made up a woman.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you can't believe how cynical I became.
		I began representing him, thinking that Mueller was a fair guy.
		I knew him for years.
		I mean, he worked under me in the Justice Department, and I worked with him on 9-11.
		And he was kind of a rookie.
		He had just become Director of the FBI.
		I always thought of him as a fair man.
		I got very worried, you know, from the outside when he started hiring all these political operatives, because having been a prosecutor, you don't do that.
		You don't do that for the credibility of your investigation.
		I mean, if they hired me to investigate Hillary, I wouldn't go out and hire her worst enemy.
		Or if somebody else was appointed to investigate Hillary, they wouldn't hire me to go investigate, because I've made some pretty harsh statements about it.
		So you try to find, and in the prosecution field, you can find a lot of apolitical people.
		Good ones.
		So it said to me, either Mueller is losing something, or because the media lets them get away with things they don't let us get away with, they're becoming very sloppy.
		Because had a Republican put together that kind of a group to investigate Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden, there'd have been holy hell to pay.
		You know, people who contributed to the campaign, people who made statements that he was insane, people that made statements that he had to be stopped under all circumstances.
		They shouldn't be on a prosecution force.
		So I thought, gee, Bob has kind of lost it a little.
		Then when I came into the case, and I had my first meeting with him, and he didn't even know whether he could indict the president or not.
		He had to go look it up.
		I said, this guy's really become lazy.
		Didn't realize that he had an illness.
		I didn't realize that the guy is suffering from some kind of a cognitive brain impairment.
		Where he can't seem to remember things or be on top of things.
		And after that three-hour meeting, that was the last time we saw him.
		They kept him locked under lock and key, kind of like what they're doing with Biden now.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what I was just gonna say.
		What about Trump before all of this?
		Because obviously you guys have become allies now and you spoke at the convention, of course, and all that stuff.
		But just from the pre-Trump, when he used to be a media darling, when he was just a New York City No, I'm not shocked.
		whether you liked him or not, that's what he was.
		Are you shocked at sort of just the way everything is framed these days?
unidentified		No, I'm not shocked.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		I'm not, you know, I'd have to go through a long story to tell you the whole evolution.
		I expected, unlike, you know, the popular conception, that he would be a good president.
		And I also thought he would probably get a lot of credit, more than he gets, because he would defy expectations, kind of like Reagan did.
		You know, they all thought Reagan was a big dope, and Reagan was one of the presidents who probably was the best writer.
		I always tell people to go read his love letters to Nancy, and you find out what a good writer he was.
		But I used to help write speeches for him, and I was shocked at what a good writer he was, because I had the prejudice from the Northeast that he was just an actor.
		Well, I knew that Trump had a very, very facile mind, very, very complex mind, had a very great interest in politics and public affairs.
		You know, his interest in trade goes back 30 years.
		His idea of our intervening too much goes back 20 years.
		So these are things he would talk to him about.
		And because I was in politics, the two things I talked to him about most were golf, no, golf, baseball, and politics.
		And we became friends really because when I ran in 1989 as the run against Ed Koch, he thought Ed Koch was I'd become a very bad mayor, and he supported me in every one of my political campaigns.
		We became good friends.
		I joined his golf course.
		My son turns out to be a fabulous golfer, professional for a while.
		He and the president golf together a lot.
		They became very close, and Donald became like an uncle to Andrew.
		So it's through how nice he's been to my son that I feel I can see the personal side of him.
		And I also saw him bring up his children, and he's a remarkably good father.
		So I see a side of him that people don't see.
		He was also always there when we had police officers in trouble, firefighters in trouble.
		He, George Steinbrenner, there's a whole group of New Yorkers that somehow were painted as Maybe because they were more conservative or they were more Republican.
		They were painted as some kind of ogres and they really were very, very kind and very philanthropic.
		And you could count on it.
		Finally, the thing I liked about Trump is he wasn't a complainer.
		But the mayor has to award a lot of projects.
		And I was scrupulous about it.
		Everybody supported me in the real estate area.
		Anybody I gave it to, it could have been considered a political favor.
		So I would set up committees to make the decision.
		I would only reverse them if they made a really stupid decision.
		And invariably, my friends would be cut out.
		And they would come to me and complain.
		And then I would say to them, didn't you support me because you wanted low crime?
		Yes.
		I said, hasn't your property value gone up 30% because the crime went down?
		Yes.
		Isn't that good enough?
		And they would say, no.
		He never did that.
		And I turned him down for the biggest project that I had, which was the Time Warner building, because we thought somebody else's design was better.
		He never once complained about it.
		So this idea that he's always looking for advantages, it's not true.
		He negotiates in a way that looks like he's going to squeeze out every But then he's very, very careful to stay within the rules.
		He always had very good attorneys.
		The best.
		Very good accountants.
		I don't have an issue with... Everybody thinks, oh my God, if they found his tax returns, they're going to find all this.
		I mean, I know every audit.
		I know how it came out.
		They're going to find nothing.
		You know what they will find is they'll find a lot of money which you just can prejudice somebody with.
		Oh, look at all the money he had.
		But they're not gonna finance it.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Right, having money isn't illegal just yet, just yet.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Right, they're gonna probably find a group of tax returns that you could use in a tax course about how to do it right, because that's what he paid for.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, in many ways, it's usually that they're more pissed about the rules rather than whether someone broke them, and that we can usually agree on.
		Yeah, let's clean up the tax code, but that's a whole other thing.
		So I got one more thing for you that'll sort of segue to the end here, which is, I mentioned at the beginning, you did the episode of Seinfeld with the yogurt.
		You did SNL, where you were in drag.
		Those things seem so distant, culturally, from where we're at now, culturally.
		Like, SNL would never put you on now.
		If there was a Seinfeld of now... You're a Republican, right?
		Right, because you're a Republican.
		And, you know, if there was a hot sitcom now, there really isn't anything, but if there was the number one sitcom now, it would never paint you as a nice guy the way they painted you now.
		And I just thought maybe this could sort of take us to the end, which is, as you've seen the culture thing shift, as a guy that was on the other side of it, and now you're more viewed as, you know, By mainstream, let's say, as like the scary Trump Republican sort of thing.
		How is that for you personally?
		And then just also, as a guy that's kept us calm through some pretty terrible times, give me something hopeful.
		Give the audience something hopeful over these next couple months, because I sense people are really worried that things aren't gonna get back to anything that looks like America from literally four months ago.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, I am very down about the idea.
		We've been so segmented and so stratified that even my... I mean, Lorne Michaels is a good friend of mine.
		I sit right behind him at the Yankee games.
		I used to go on Saturday Night Live all the time.
		I haven't been invited now.
		For 10 years.
		And I think I was pretty good.
		I was pretty funny.
		I've actually posted an entire show.
		I have a secret desire to be an actor.
		Always wanted to be an actor.
		I guess that's why I was at trial work.
		I was in anger management and out-of-towners and a lot of the law and order stuff.
		So I played the Beast in Beauty and the Beast.
		All kinds of roles.
		I used to love doing that.
		I'm glad I got the chance to do it, because now you're right.
		I would not have the chance to do it.
		Here's what I think is hopeful.
		I think we're very, very lucky, and I really mean this.
		We're very, very lucky to have a president with an indomitable spirit.
		Some other president, given what he went through, could be broken by it.
		I mean, Nixon became an alcoholic during the impeachment thing, or at least it's rumored that he did.
		He could have broken another man.
		We're very lucky that he has an indomitable spirit, because that'll eventually prevail.
		Once we get past the pandemic, once this calms down, and it will, it always does, it's going to get back to the economy and how we're functioning in jobs, and he's going to do miracles with it.
		I mean, he's got a remarkable understanding of our economy.
		Some of the things that he's been able to do really means that the next recovery is going to be faster and stronger than the last one, particularly in boxing out China so much.
		So, I see it as there'll be a rebirth.
		The real question is, if he gets re-elected, which I think he will, and if he gets re-elected with a good spirit of the economy at least coming back, will the Democrats give him at least two years Before we go into the next election.
		And somebody should get down on their hands and knees and beg them to do that for the good of the country.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, I think we know the answer to that one.
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe, maybe, maybe if they get defeated, maybe they're going to have to reform their party.
		That's the only way they're going to get fixed.
		The only way they're going to get fixed is the way they got fixed in the 80s or 90s when they finally nominated Clinton and he did the sister soldier moment.
		They had been going so far to the left that we were trouncing.
		And Clinton, although maybe he was more left than he indicated, or certainly Hillary was, Clinton made a pretty good show in 92 that he was a moderate candidate.
		And he was, after all, a governor of a conservative state.
		So he knew how to work with conservatives.
		It was in his DNA to work with right-wing senators and Assemblyman.
		And he always knew how to do that.
		I mean, I had a great relationship with Clinton.
		I helped to pass the infamous crime bill of 1994 with him, and I have a great letter explaining what a terrific mayor I am.
		I was gonna use that if I ever ran against Hillary.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, for sure.
		Well, listen, Mr. Mayor, I'm thrilled that you joined us for this.
		You're one of the last heroes that we have in America that actually stands up for what they believe in.
		You are.
		That's the New Yorker in me.
		Thank you, David.
		So, listen, thank you so much.
		Great show.
		And stay safe in New York, alright?
rudy giuliani ▲ ● ▼		I will, sir.

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