May 14, 2019 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
01:44:46
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unidentified
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Alright, I think we're live. | |
| We're live? | ||
| We're live. | ||
| We're live on YouTube. | ||
| How about that? | ||
| I am here with author, with journalist, with documentary filmmaker, and a guy who's gonna cause me a whole world of hate today, Mike Cernovich. | ||
| How you doing, man? | ||
| I'm doing better than you're doing. | ||
| That's for sure. | ||
| Well, you're in the bubble of protection right now, so we'll see the battlement and the barrage of attacks coming. | ||
| Yeah, okay, so look, I think you know how I interview. | ||
| I really try to just sit down with someone and focus on being present and seeing where the chips fall, but I am gonna conduct this interview a little bit differently than I usually do. | ||
| I've got all your past controversies here and controversial statements and things you've said and done and all of those things, and I wanna dive into all of those things, but I thought the first thing we should do is talk a little bit about our history, because I had you on the show way before we were independent. | ||
| We were at Ora TV back in March of 2016. | ||
| It was right at the beginning of the Trump phenomenon. | ||
| And I was seeing this thing on Twitter where I saw all this support for Trump. | ||
| I saw these fun memes. | ||
| I saw, like, there was a real energy behind this thing, but I could not find anyone You know, a verified person on Twitter or a celebrity or an author. | ||
| I couldn't find anyone that was supporting Trump. | ||
| Then I came across you. | ||
| I think I tweeted out. | ||
| I'm looking for a Trump supporter, basically, to have on the show. | ||
| I came across you. | ||
| You were a published author. | ||
| You have the guerrilla mindset, which you have right here. | ||
| And we sat down. | ||
| And three and a half years ago, it feels like a different life to me. | ||
| Do you remember that guy, three and a half year ago, Mike Cernovich? | ||
| Well, yeah, that's what's wild. | ||
| And then people attack you because subsequent controversies arose, | ||
| and some of which- Right, then you did things later, | ||
| which we're gonna address, and people say, oh, but Rubin talked to him | ||
| two years ago. | ||
| How dare he talk? | ||
| It's like, well, the character arc was different. | ||
| And the history of it's pretty simple. | ||
| At the time that I was on your show, everybody said Trump won't win. | ||
| Here's why. | ||
| Boom, boom, boom. | ||
| The polls, this, everything. | ||
| And I said, no, no, no, he's gonna win. | ||
| Here's why. | ||
| Here's the trends. | ||
| Here's why people support him. | ||
| Here's where the puck is going, as Wayne Gretzky would say. | ||
| Nobody else would I was saying that nobody could, Scott Adams being an exception, cogently, not, oh, I love Trump, rah, rah, rah, but no, the media's made him. | ||
| Everything now that I'm saying, the media's like catching up to, oh, Trump's nicknames, maybe we shouldn't amplify them, they're too powerful. | ||
| Everything where I talked about branding, how Trump was essentially the big gorilla, and everything else. | ||
| So all of that aged well. | ||
| Everything that I said was going to happen, happened. | ||
| And then people go, well, we don't want to look at the message. | ||
| Cernovich is a bad guy, persona non grata. | ||
| And there's a number of things to address. | ||
| One is, I used to troll pretty hard Twitter. | ||
| It's easy to say Twitter was a different place, right? | ||
| This is the, like, namaste. | ||
| Twitter was a different place. | ||
| If you're James Gunn, you get to say that. | ||
| If you're James Gunn or a lefty, you get to just say, you know what? | ||
| Twitter was different. | ||
| I was joking. | ||
| How dare you? | ||
| weaponize tweets and bad faith because we all know when that happens. | ||
| But I own something. | ||
| For some reason, the lefties are able to get away with past egregious things | ||
| or bad jokes or whatever it is, where if you sort of step out of that, | ||
| you're not allowed to get away with it. | ||
| Yeah, there's nothing worse than James Gunn. | ||
| But, but, but, and this is a. | ||
| When you say trolling, just for the people that really aren't paying attention | ||
| to the Twitter nonsense or the YouTube comment section, just the average person that checks in | ||
| on these conversations, what do you mean by that? | ||
| So there's multiple layers. | ||
| There's trolling merely to provoke and then for its own provocation. | ||
| And that was always sort of nasty. | ||
| I never did that stuff. | ||
| There was something, for example, called RIP trolling, which is trolls would go to a memorial site | ||
| of someone's dead person and like laugh about it. | ||
| Which is just amoral evil. | ||
| And then there's using tactics that generate attention, massive controversy, but in a way that amplifies an underlying message. | ||
| That's why when people call Trump a troll, he's using a tactic. | ||
| So what I would do is I would use a certain tactic. | ||
| There's a meanness to it, really. | ||
| Everybody's a troll now, though, which is ironic, because when you watch Maddow, That she's a troll. | ||
| She's not a nice person. | ||
| She's not having open-ended conversations with people. | ||
| Everybody now trolls, so I was a troll, kind of, and then the left all became a troll when Trump won, and then I become nice, and now everybody is making people angrier, and I realized that just being a nice person is Makes people so angry, that's the best way to put it. | ||
| Well, that's why I wanted to have you on, because I have seen an interesting evolution, and you've been on sort of the side of the hate machine, and then you've been on the side of taking the hate and all of those things. | ||
| So I thought, alright, why don't we start with this. | ||
| Right before I had you on, I tweeted this out, and I got a series of people saying that I'm alt-right, and you're a racist, and all the usual stuff, and these are verified journalists, you know, blue check verified journalists and all that. | ||
| But somebody, we don't have to mention his name, but a blue check guy, said that Rubin is having a serial rapist on the show. | ||
| Now that's a pretty serious accusation. | ||
| Yeah, they make these massive accusations and the answer is they attack, attack, attack in any way. | ||
| Of course, it's a weird accusation to deny, but no I'm not, this is a lie. | ||
| So have you ever raped anyone? | ||
| No, not only have I never not done anything like that, but the people who make those allegations have made fake videos of me, fake videos of my daughter, threatened to release revenge porn of me. | ||
| They claim they have a sex tape of me and they're going to release revenge porn, which is actually a sex crime in California. | ||
| So the answer to that is no. | ||
| Now the question is, why do people say that? | ||
| Why don't I just sue everybody? | ||
| And the answer is, if you're me and you've been so smeared in the media, You can't just go sue people for defamation because the theory is, well, nobody would believe it because they're saying it on Twitter, but even if they would believe it, then they wouldn't side with you because of whatever the reputation. | ||
| So they say either rapist, rape apologist, white supremacist, and a men's rights activist. | ||
| So there's like a whole slew of them. | ||
| And it's all very bizarre to me, especially because I don't do any of that stuff. | ||
| I don't want to do anything like that. | ||
| I live a very conventional life. | ||
| I have a wife, two kids. | ||
| We hang out. | ||
| It's very kind of chill. | ||
| Your wife is Latina, by the way. | ||
| Persian! | ||
| Persian! | ||
| I thought she was Latina. | ||
| She's Persian. | ||
| I'm also an Islamophobe, even though half of the people at our wedding are Muslim. | ||
| So there's like three layers to this. | ||
| There's the layer of you, the layer of my wife, and then my layer. | ||
| Your layer is you're trying to kind of figure it out. | ||
| My wife's layer is she's like mortified. | ||
| How can they say this about you? | ||
| And then there's my layer where I'm just so used to falsehoods and outright lies that I don't even notice them anymore. | ||
| People are like, oh, so-and-so said that about you. | ||
| So you did have rape charges brought against you. | ||
| Yeah, I was falsely accused of rape in college. | ||
| This was in 2001, about the time period. | ||
| The case took around five years to litigate. | ||
| Charges were dismissed. | ||
| My record was expunged. | ||
| The only reason anybody knows about that is because I've spoken about it. | ||
| I love how they're like, oh, did you know about this? | ||
| Yes, because I talked about it, because I wrote about it. | ||
| No criminal record, licensed attorney. | ||
| Literally, this is what expungement means. | ||
| Expungement means it did not exist as a matter of law. | ||
| So I could have just said, never happened. | ||
| Never happened. | ||
| I've always spoken about it openly, though, because that's one reason I'm passionate about due process. | ||
| That's one reason I'm passionate about these issues. | ||
| So there's all these gotcha things that people think they have. | ||
| And I'm like, no, no, no, you know that because I said it. | ||
| I never even had to say it, but I believe in living an open and transparent life about it. | ||
| Now, have I done some bad satire and things? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| So that tweet, for example, can you explain that date rape tweet? | ||
| Well, the irony is the date rape tweet was an homage to Susan Estrich, who wrote a book called Real Rape. | ||
| And the thesis of the book is that all rape is rape. | ||
| It's either rape or it's not rape. | ||
| And if you create this category of is it or isn't it, meaning you've got— | ||
| Meaning the qualifier. | ||
| Yeah, the qualifier. | ||
| That same date is a qualifier. | ||
| Yeah, it's either rape or it's not. | ||
| You know, like, if I'm murdered right here, I wouldn't say I was, you know, Rubin murdered | ||
| or a quaintance murdered. | ||
| You would just say, well, you were just murdered. | ||
| And so when they call it out, you go, no, no, no. | ||
| Actually, that's a Susan Asterix thing. | ||
| This is a second-wave feminist argument, which is, you need to treat—this is the problem with societies. | ||
| You need to treat it very seriously. | ||
| Like, if we were walking outside and we saw somebody being raped, we would, like, take a baseball bat to the guy's head. | ||
| Nobody would be like, oh, rape apology, da-da-da-da. | ||
| You'd just—everybody knows what they would do. | ||
| But that said, there now it's become a word where everybody just tosses it around. | ||
| Oh, that was rape. | ||
| That was rape. | ||
| Well, this thing happened. | ||
| That was rape. | ||
| There's now even a thing that regret is rape, because if you feel bad the next day, then you must not have had affirmative consent the night before. | ||
| So this is where this is where it's actually going. | ||
| Now, my mistake is, well, a number number of things. | ||
| One is when you have 40 Twitter followers and everybody knows that you're talking about a specific article, then people are like, oh, yeah, they get it. | ||
| And then you become, like, famous or whatever, and then people pretend that there wasn't that context to it. | ||
| But again, this only happens if you're conservative or if you're on the right. | ||
| If you're on the left, you can say, I'm James Gunn, and he touches children, and, oh, LOL, and Cernovich found these tweets. | ||
| How dare he? | ||
| He's weaponizing bad faith. | ||
| So, the answer to that is, Those tweets, they're just not very smart. | ||
| They haven't actually read the literature. | ||
| They should go read Susan Esrich. | ||
| Now, that said, and I've learned this, there's a lot of people who've been through some shit, man. | ||
| Like, I fat shame people. | ||
| I feel bad about that. | ||
| I watched this video by Boogie and he talked about what fat shaming did to him. | ||
| So I'm like, I fat shame people? | ||
| That's real shitty. | ||
| There are people who read me who've probably been raped, you know? | ||
| It's not something to be glib about. | ||
| It's not something to joke about. | ||
| How much of that do you think, and we've all been guilty of this, so I do not sit here as holier than thou. | ||
| Have I engaged in some of this type of stuff? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| I really try not to. | ||
| And then sometimes just the evil nature of Twitter just drags you into it one way or another. | ||
| How much of what you were doing, though, was calculated just so that you could get followers, so that you could get whatever your message is out there? | ||
| Well, that stuff wasn't. | ||
| That was just 40 people. | ||
| Everybody knows you're providing meta-commentary about an article. | ||
| That said, you can judge me. | ||
| There are people who can judge me. | ||
| You can judge me. | ||
| Maybe Sam Harris can. | ||
| So you've gone after Sam a couple times pretty hard. | ||
| Yeah, but, so, okay, Sam I've gone after hard but not unfairly, which is the difference. | ||
| Because he had this very dismissive attitude towards Trump supporters. | ||
| And he was wrong about it. | ||
| But I don't go after Sam. | ||
| I'm nice to Sam. | ||
| I'm nice to Ben. | ||
| There's enough people going after these guys, I guess, is the way I look at it. | ||
| I try not to go after anybody, really. | ||
| I don't even want to tag people into tweets. | ||
| But you... | ||
| You could judge me. | ||
| I think you've had Harmeen on here. | ||
| She's like a Republican. | ||
| She can judge me. | ||
| There's a few people who can. | ||
| But the idea that these people at BuzzFeed who say, kill all white men, let's kill white people, have you killed a white person? | ||
| No, no, no, no, no. | ||
| They can't judge me. | ||
| So what frustrates them is I won't apologize to them ever for anything. | ||
| They can't. | ||
| There are a few people who can judge me. | ||
| They're certainly not on the crown, though. | ||
| So what do we do? | ||
| Regardless of what your past is, what do we do about this set of people that is this blue check set of BuzzFeed Vox people that we know are watching this right now, waiting for you to screw up one word, or me to pause in a weird way, or get a glimmer in my eye. | ||
| Like, just any crazy thing so they can selectively edit it, so they can just try to destroy it. | ||
| And what people need to understand is there's a business behind this. | ||
| And you're also acknowledging that some of your business partook in some of these things. | ||
| Well, I didn't do it for business. | ||
| I did it to help Trump win. | ||
| So when I was trolling people like Sam and others. | ||
| So the idea behind, like Sam, and Sam, if you're watching, I apologize. | ||
| But that's sincere. | ||
| That's a glib. | ||
| See, this is one thing I was thinking about today when we drive is we live in kind of like the glib age. | ||
| Which is, oh, so sorry. | ||
| It's like, no, no, no. | ||
| If you're an asshole to a person, Sam had the credibility to apologize to someone for something a guest said. | ||
| And when Sam said that, I thought, son of a bitch, you know? | ||
| So I publicly apologized. | ||
| I said, you know what? | ||
| You did the right thing, so I'll do the right thing. | ||
| But when you're- I think that actually is when I, this is probably about six or eight months ago, and that's when I finally had reached out to you after about two years of not speaking, because I thought, here's someone you're trying to acknowledge some of these things. | ||
| Some of your past behavior and I thought we know we want to destroy everybody We don't want to give anyone a chance to come back from the brink and that I thought that was commendable well, and that's what's interesting is they And this is the reason that they're all freaking out is they're no longer they've lost gatekeeper status and this is this was talked about in the one i did with you two and a half years ago and now their methodology has changed where they go now to the tech companies and cry so so for example they're crying there's this girl so she's 14 she's got they're going you know so it used to be they'd write a hate piece and now they go youtube how do you allow this person on there so here's my answer to all the blue checks i know they're watching | ||
| All of you. | ||
| I'm talking to all of you right now. | ||
| You all know what Vic Berger did. | ||
| You know he edited fake videos about my wife and daughter. | ||
| Fact. | ||
| You know that he's edited multiple videos about my daughter. | ||
| Fact. | ||
| You know the emails he's sent me, the threats. | ||
| You know that I've gone to police. | ||
| You've seen the police reports. | ||
| This is some clown. | ||
| This is some clown, but they're watching. | ||
| Yeah, this is my message to them. | ||
| He made fake videos about my wife and daughter. | ||
| There's a thousand fake videos of me where if I come on here and I say, you know, Dave, they call me a murderer. | ||
|
unidentified
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Oh, yes. | |
| I like to murder. | ||
| I know that'll end up in a soundboard in five years from now. | ||
| some boomer is going to be like, oh wow, I heard this audio where you said you like to | ||
| murder people. | ||
| You know, I don't care. | ||
| That's the game. | ||
| But going after someone's wife and daughter beyond the pale, they all know about it because | ||
| I email them and everything. | ||
| They won't write about it. | ||
| But then they'll go, oh, Dave Rubin, this and that. | ||
| So they can show some integrity and they're all watching. | ||
| Write about that. | ||
| Say, hey, Cernovich is an asshole. | ||
| He's a jerk. | ||
| He's a troll. | ||
| He's a bad guy. | ||
| You should never, never make a fake video about an 18-month-old girl. | ||
| My daughter was at the time. | ||
| You should never make a fake video about a wife tagging Child Protective Services. | ||
| Never! | ||
| But they can't! | ||
| So they'll sanctimoniously go, Dave Rubin gives Cernovich his redemption arc. | ||
| Oh, Rubin lets him come in and apologize, but he didn't bring up these other 15 things, and we'll just pretend that Vic Berger hasn't tried to make Cernovich's wife a living hell. | ||
| So, screw all these people. | ||
| Well, that's the thing, is that the game, no matter how many of these things I read off to you, and no matter what mea culpa you do or don't do, they never stop. | ||
| I mean, if I've learned anything in the last couple years, it's that they never stop. | ||
| They just ratchet up every time. | ||
| But wait, let's back up to this 14-year-old girl for a second, because I don't know a lot of people know this. | ||
| What's her name again, or what's the YouTube channel? | ||
| I'm not even sure. | ||
| Her name was Saf or Sophie, something like that. | ||
| Okay, so I saw this video. | ||
| It's a 14-year-old girl, and she does a really interesting, biting, sort of red-pilling social commentary video. | ||
| This guy from BuzzFeed decides to go after her, and her channel is now banned or suspended. | ||
| I don't know if it's banned or suspended or not. | ||
| She's got two strikes, so she's one strike away. | ||
| Yeah, so you've got BuzzFeed going after kids, literally for kids, for satire. | ||
| The video was taken down. | ||
| It had something like 800,000 views. | ||
| But the guy who went after her, who of course has gone after me before and the rest of it, and this is a BuzzFeed verified guy, he has a tweet, I think you just referenced it, saying, kill all white people on your way to work today or something to that effect. | ||
| I mean, I have no doubt that he's joking. | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| But it's like, what rules are you guys playing by, and why is it that some people get protection and lauded for these things, and some people get destroyed by them? | ||
| And I'm glad you bring up this reporter, and I won't name him, because then you're inciting harassment. | ||
| They'll go, oh, they're inciting harassment. | ||
| And he's nobody. | ||
| He's irrelevant, other than he's trying to gain relevance by playing in a really bad game, I think. | ||
| Yeah, but I'll tell you a revealing story. | ||
| I held an event in New York, Night for Freedom 2008, teen. | ||
| And a number of Buzzfeed people were there. | ||
| Chelsea Manning was there, so it became a story. | ||
| How dare Chelsea Manning come to my story, even though everyone is nice to her. | ||
| And Antifa, a 30-year-old white male, was arrested for almost beating a Jewish man to death. | ||
| He was walking home. | ||
| No mainstream coverage for that. | ||
| They came to the event. | ||
| The same people who go, oh, Dave Rubin is a gateway to radicalization, blah, blah, blah. | ||
| It's like, OK, why won't they report on Antifa? | ||
| This is why they're losing trust. | ||
| If I read an article that says, Cernovich is a piece of shit, but so is Vic Berger, and you should never go after kids, and Antifa violence is wrong, I'd be like, well, OK, what are you going to do? | ||
| We're all flawed. | ||
| But when I read these articles, Cernovich this, oh, but by the way, Cernovich went after James Gunn. | ||
| This was, I think, revealing. | ||
| My wife found this quite amusing. | ||
| She goes, babe, all these articles say that you found James Gunn's tweets. | ||
| And they're saying he's joking, and then they're saying, but look at Cernovich's tweets. | ||
| But are tweets jokes? | ||
| Are they satire? | ||
| Are they to be taken literally? | ||
| And the answer is there's no rule, and anybody with a brain knows that the left doesn't care. | ||
| They're not nice. | ||
| They're not nice to people. | ||
| They don't call out their own side. | ||
| There's Chris Cuomo praises Antifa. | ||
| Oh, we like Antifa. | ||
| Antifa beat up three Marines in Philadelphia. | ||
| No media coverage. | ||
| The guy who ran the Smash Racism DC Twitter account. | ||
| Antifa D.C. | ||
| is being charged with hate crimes because he called a Hispanic Marine a W-E-T-B-A-C-K. | ||
| He's facing hate. | ||
| Where's the coverage of that, BuzzFeed? | ||
| Where are you guys talking about? | ||
| Right? | ||
| Nowhere. | ||
| The shooter last week in Colorado, I believe, was a trans guy who was an anti-Trump supporter, right? | ||
| Somehow that story went away real quick. | ||
| It goes away real quick, the Scalise shooting. | ||
| Nobody says, oh, you know, who is radicalizing the far left? | ||
| They just, let's pretend it didn't happen. | ||
| And we'll pretend that you're radicalizing people, even though the irony of this is that, if anything, you've de-radicalized people, because you've made people—you and a few other people—and this is why they hate their IDW or whatever it's called, because you've shown people, look, you don't have to—you're not caught in this Hegelian thing where you're either a far-left maniac or you're just a far-right calling people cucks all day on Twitter or whatever. | ||
| Hey, there's, you know, there's a little bit of room in between here. | ||
| Well, that's the thing that I've realized is so bizarre. | ||
| All I think I've actually, you know, look, I've talked about the difference between leftism and liberalism, sure, but I think what I did that they really hate is that I've shown that you can be conservative or lean a little right and that doesn't mean you're a bigot and that's a huge no-no for these guys. | ||
| So do you think, do you think That your tactics were, let's say, just a reaction to their tactics. | ||
| If they had behaved differently, or if the media hadn't been so awful leading up to Trump that you would have behaved differently, or maybe not even been relevant because then when I had been looking for a Trump supporter, How would I have ever found you? | ||
| So, great question. | ||
| One is, Angela Nagle got in trouble because she wrote a book called Kill All the Normies. | ||
| And this is like a very online kind of thing, but the idea was people like me are essentially right-wing social justice warriors. | ||
| So the left would do call-out culture. | ||
| Oh, Dave Rubin made this joke in 2015. | ||
| Can you believe we've got to cancel him? | ||
| And then there are traditional conservatives who are like, oh, gasp! | ||
| I can't believe it. | ||
| This is so unfair. | ||
| The double standards. | ||
| And then there are people like me who go, OK, I'm going to go through your tweets. | ||
| Let's play. | ||
| This is how it's going to be. | ||
| Let's do this. | ||
| Do you think that leads to mutually assured destruction though? | ||
| So, like, when you were going after Gunn, and you can explain it a little bit more, like, when I saw you doing it, my feeling was, these are obviously jokes, they're all kind of gross, we've all made bad jokes, and this is the purpose of jokes, right? | ||
| You want to get as close to that line as possible. | ||
| But sometimes when you're doing it, you're going to trip over that line. | ||
| But did you have any sense of, like, if I keep ramping this up, they will keep ramping this up, and then what does that actually lead to? | ||
| Well, Gunn is an unusual case, because I have reason to believe that some of his stuff is pretty bad. | ||
| The worst one was Bieber when he was 16. | ||
| I don't want to get in the weeds of that, but people can read the tweets. | ||
| But there is a sense of—and we see this now with Rashida Tlaib and Congresswoman Omar and them. | ||
| The left can't withstand the scrutiny that you and I take for granted. | ||
| We sit down, we already know right away, okay, shitstorm, they're going to go after Dave, here's what they're going to say, they're going to clip this, they're going to clip that. | ||
| You take it for granted. | ||
| You take it for granted. | ||
| But these people on the left will go up and say, Israel has hypnotized the world. | ||
| And like, nothing happens. | ||
| The issue with James Gunn, I always say this, why didn't he delete his tweets? | ||
| You know why? | ||
| He didn't have to. | ||
| Because nobody on the left was ever going to find his tweets, or if they did, they weren't going to do anything with them. | ||
| So do you think Roseanne Barr, then, is the best example of the double standard? | ||
|
unidentified
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Exactly. | |
| That no one in their right mind thinks that Roseanne Barr is a racist. | ||
| Her show was anti-racist. | ||
| It was cutting edge. | ||
| It made working class people look decent. | ||
| White working class people, which people now mock relentlessly. | ||
| And I know her. | ||
| I mean, this woman is not... | ||
| She had the first gay kiss ever on television was her. | ||
| I mean, the idea that she's a racist or a homophobe or a xenophobe or any of these things. | ||
| But she had one bad tweet, and I do believe her, by the way, that she didn't know. | ||
| I thought she was Persian. | ||
| I didn't even know she was black. | ||
| I do believe that. | ||
| But regardless, you could say it was one really stupid tweet. | ||
| And she's had many other stupid tweets. | ||
| But the point is, she lost the number one sitcom on television. | ||
| This is just last year. | ||
| And they pulled it from syndication. | ||
| It wasn't. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So if you want to talk about overreaction, the Dukes of Hazzard was pulled out of syndication because they generally had a rebel flag on it. | ||
|
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Right. | |
| Which they were mocking. | ||
| I mean, the purpose of those were the good guys. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And right. | ||
| So they the overreaction. | ||
| So Roseanne, her show gets she gets fired, pulled from syndication. | ||
| But then if a made man of the left says stuff way worse, they attack the messenger. | ||
| They go after me. | ||
| My favorite article was and this this kills them. | ||
| There's There's a guy at CNN and his job is to dig up old tweets of people and he digs up old tweets he gets a lot of people fired and whatever that's the game. | ||
| Now... | ||
| It's gotta be a special place in hell. | ||
| He was profiled in the Washington Post. | ||
| Great guy. | ||
| He's the guy, he'll never let you forget your past. | ||
| But then when the James Gunn thing happened in the Washington Post, they said, oh, Cernovich is just a bad faith actor. | ||
| It's like, well, I mean, are old tweets off limits or aren't they? | ||
| Are old comments off limits or not? | ||
| Are tweets literal? | ||
| Are they jokes? | ||
| Are they satire? | ||
| Or is there even redemption? | ||
| The issue that they have with me, the left does, is I will never apologize to them. | ||
| There's one tweet I will apologize for. | ||
| I would apologize—I made a glib remark about Trayvon Martin being shot. | ||
| I would apologize to his mom. | ||
| But if you're going to be—and I sincerely would, actually. | ||
| I mean, you lose a child, and I'm joking about it? | ||
| That's an issue that I've had to work on, but this vicarious outrage, I'm offended on behalf of all these people? | ||
| No, I'm not going to apologize to these people. | ||
| And I'm just going to keep finding more stuff that they said. | ||
| And now, again, like Rashida Tlaib, I'll make the devil's advocate case for her. | ||
| And then I'll make the case for her. | ||
| I can do both, right? | ||
| The devil's advocate case against her is she used Holocaust and comic feeling in the same line. | ||
| This is bad. | ||
| The case for her is that she was saying, you know what? | ||
| I know my ancestors died so that Jews can move to Palestine. | ||
| And that makes me feel pretty good about myself. | ||
| Now, that's ahistorical. | ||
| It isn't true! | ||
| No, no, but I can, you know, I'm a lawyer, I can flip it, right? | ||
| I can do both sides. | ||
| And, yeah, it's ahistorical, and there's reason to doubt it, but if you were conservative, they'd call everybody to disavow. | ||
| Pelosi's defending her. | ||
| So that's the part, I mean, we're all over the place here, but that's the part, I mean, I even tweeted that, I think it was this morning or maybe yesterday, it's like, she lied about what the nature of 1948 war was and all of those things, used the Holocaust in the worst sort of sense, and all, I didn't, it's not about piling on her, it's where is any decent Democrat ever? | ||
| The right always has to get rid of these guys, and that's good, self-policing is good, but it seems that the left never has to do it. | ||
| And then I have this weird sympathy when people like you sometimes step over a line. | ||
| I'm like, well, it's the only way to ever get anything done. | ||
| It may not be my tactic. | ||
| And I sort of saw this with Milo years ago. | ||
| It was like, I can understand his over-the-top ridiculousness because he's sort of blowing things up so that maybe someone a little calmer, like me, could come in and try to rebuild things. | ||
| And it's just, we all operate in different tactics. | ||
| Well, yeah, and the issue is a lot of people, like I've evolved, you know, the Pizzagate, post-Pizzagate. | ||
| Yeah, so I want to talk about Pizzagate. | ||
| This is why they keep bringing up Pizzagate, right? | ||
| Because what have I done lately? | ||
| There was actually a really funny video from Media Matters where they go, the gist of it was, Cernovich is being nice, but don't forget all these bad things he said. | ||
| But then a couple of the clips and this shows how people things get chopped up. | ||
| I did one video where I said, you know what, there's all this because I was part of the man's internet, whatever people call it, the male sphere, whatever it was. | ||
| And I broke from that a long time ago, but there was a racial element came in. | ||
| And I was like, look, you know, I won't have any tolerance to this racial element. | ||
| And I was like, here's what people are saying about black guys on Twitter. | ||
| And then I repeated what I said. | ||
| And then that gets chopped up into a video. | ||
| Oh, Cernovich is dropping n-bombs. | ||
| No, I wasn't calling anyone. | ||
| I was saying, hey, you know, I'm not having any tolerance to this kind of stuff. | ||
| Because, like, our guys already have enough drama. | ||
| Yeah, they do this all the time. | ||
| I mean, literally an hour ago, some blue check guy was going after me, because years ago on a livestream, years ago, when the alt-right was just coming to fruition, whatever that is, I said, as a meme-making joke machine, there's something funny going on here, but the previous sentence? | ||
| No, the racists are bad, the bigots are bad, all of those things. | ||
| Of course, Daily Beast didn't run that piece, and then this guy's quoting. | ||
| It's like every freaking time, every time. | ||
| Yeah, and that's what they do. | ||
| And so the Pizzagate thing is interesting for a number of reasons. | ||
| One is that... Just do 101. | ||
| Do Pizzagate 101. | ||
| How the hell did this thing come on the radar? | ||
| I actually did not track it that much. | ||
| I remember thinking at the time, I was like, I only have a certain bandwidth for enough Twitter craziness, and I just kind of let that one... | ||
| Yeah, I got bullied into talking about it. | ||
| So there was a Podesta, the emails, the WikiLeaks, and there was a bunch of emails that don't even make sense. | ||
| So there was one, for example, that said, you left a handkerchief at your house. | ||
| There was a map on it, something pizza related. | ||
| Now, who would leave a napkin at your house and somebody's going to email you, you left a napkin at my house, you want me to mail it to you? | ||
| So it was a little weird, you know, could have meant nothing, it could have been vague, but then people thought, oh, that must mean Podesta was involved in something, but I never said anything about John Podesta. | ||
|
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Right? | |
| I just said, well, yeah, I mean, there's all this stuff happening. | ||
| There's all these attempts to normalize pedophilia. | ||
| You can find articles in Salon where they said pedophilia is a disorder, not a crime. | ||
| There was an article, and I'm not going to quote it, because it would say it, but the person wrote, he's a pedophile, not a monster. | ||
| That was in Salon. | ||
| So I was like, look, dude, there's all these efforts to normalize pedophilia. | ||
| I talked about the Jimmy Zavel thing out of the BBC. | ||
| I talked about Jeff Epstein. | ||
| I talked about all these great deals people were getting. | ||
| And then I used the hashtag Pizzagate. | ||
| So that becomes, Cernovich said Comet Pizza, and I said, I never said Comet Pizza did anything. | ||
| So what they did... So you actually started the hashtag? | ||
| No, no, no, the hashtag was already started way before me. | ||
| And I just thought, oh, this is a hashtag. | ||
| They're talking about pedophilia and Jeffrey Epstein and whatnot. | ||
| Which, by the way, I'm in precedent setting litigation about freedom of the press involving | ||
| Jeffrey Epstein. | ||
| Miami Herald's reported on it. | ||
| They're in the same case as me. | ||
| So Cernovich is in a case with the Miami Herald seeking records about Jeff Epstein. | ||
| So what they did was, if they're honest, here's what they said. | ||
| and this is true. | ||
| And this is true. | ||
| They'll say, you know, you amplified a hashtag, and you should have been more careful, and | ||
| They'll say, you know, you amplified a hashtag, and you should have been more careful, | ||
| and you should have paid attention. | ||
| you should have paid attention. | ||
| And the answer to that is, yeah, should have, you're right, that was for me like, | ||
| And the answer to that is, yeah, should have. | ||
| You're right. | ||
| That was for me like, OK, OK, we got to be a little more careful. | ||
| okay, okay, we gotta be a little bit more careful. | ||
| But the flip side is, I never said anything about Comet Pizza, and in fact, | ||
| But the flip side is, I never said anything about Comet Pizza. | ||
| And in fact, the same guy who made fake videos of my wife made a video where I say Comet | ||
| the same guy who made fake videos on my wife made a video where I say Comet Pizza, | ||
|
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Pizza, but only because I was talking about a James O'Keefe If they're honest, here's what they said, | |
| but only because I was talking about a James O'Keefe video, where blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, | ||
| we're going way into the weeds. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But it's important to lay out some of this, because part of, I think, what's happening here | ||
| is the inability for mainstream, whatever that is, the increasing layer of mainstream | ||
| that's just shedding relentlessly by their own doing, it's their inability to deal with any of the outsiders. | ||
| So, I mean, it's the way they respond to things that I do. | ||
| It's like they can't understand that people might have a different take on internet culture or on just outsider culture or any of the trolling or meme making. | ||
| They just can't piece it all together. | ||
| Well, they can't piece it all together. | ||
| They don't want to do nuance. | ||
| So there's a number of pressures. | ||
| And I went into this with Hoaxed. | ||
| Hoaxed, my movie, started off with I was—I've become much less conspiratorial the more I've learned about these people. | ||
| And the biggest problem in media—well, not the biggest, but one of the big problems is, Cable News is the same 10 people. | ||
| Oh, today we're going to talk about Saudi Arabia and Qatar. | ||
| Tomorrow we're going to talk about banking and tariffs on China. | ||
| Are you out of your mind? | ||
| How can some 28-year-old with a BA in anything know that? | ||
| Why don't you bring actual experts on? | ||
| And they all talk about everything. | ||
| So then when they go Pizzagate, they're like, hey, Google it. | ||
| Give me the five-minute summary. | ||
| Oh, Pizzagate, Cernovich, Cernovich-Pizzagate, da-da-da, the end. | ||
| And they don't ever get in the weeds of any kind of subject or no expertise. | ||
| So, for example, tariffs are bad now. | ||
| Apparently they're saying Trump was going to win, the market was going to crash. | ||
| It's like, well, no, the market's at record highs. | ||
| So they all, rather than having actual experts on to discuss the issues, Then they just talk like they're experts on everything. | ||
| It's amazing to think about, right? | ||
| Well, everyone on Twitter is an expert about anything. | ||
| Nuclear centrifuges? | ||
| But you don't try to do that. | ||
| I don't try to do that. | ||
| If you ask me something out of my comfort zone, I'd say, well, I kind of have a take on that, but not really. | ||
| And when I came on, and this kind of segues into you having experts on your show, I'm an expert on Trump, meme culture, persuasion, the internet, you name it, I'm an expert on it, in terms of mass human psychology, trends, where things are going. | ||
| So then you go, well, I mean, I can't know everything. | ||
| I'll have this guy on here. | ||
| Oh, he's got baggage! | ||
| And then that baggage becomes your baggage. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's just such intellectual hostage taking. | ||
| I mean, that's the thing. | ||
| So wait, let's really dive into something here. | ||
| So about a year ago, I think it was a year ago last week, was when that big renegades of the intellectual dark web piece came out in the New York Times. | ||
| And the piece, Barry Weiss wrote the piece, and I know Barry gets a ton of hate online, and I have sort of mixed feelings about her, but whatever it is. | ||
| In the piece, she sort of threw me and Rogan under the bus, because she said if you talk to people like Mike Cernovich and Alex Jones, now Jones had been on Rogan's show a bunch of times, and he's been on since, and here you are, and you had been on my show, that you're either stupid or cynical. | ||
| Now, I didn't like the line because to me it's like Joe and I are interviewers, at least when we're doing our shows, and it's like you're going to have to talk to people outside of your box. | ||
| I'm not even referencing you here. | ||
| You talk to all sorts of people. | ||
| That's what an interviewer does, right? | ||
| But she said you'd have to be stupid or cynical to talk to those people and I was wondering You're a source for all sorts of people, I'm guessing, probably at the New York Times and all sorts of different papers and all sorts of things. | ||
| Now, we happen to be doing this publicly so all the haters can watch and anyone can judge whatever they want about anything we say. | ||
| But I suspect you probably talk to all sorts of reporters and all sorts of things and it just goes under the radar and that's why it's acceptable to those people. | ||
| Am I completely off base here, Cernovich? | ||
| Well, sometimes I feel like Rodney Dangerfield. | ||
| No respect. | ||
| I can't get no respect, right? | ||
| It's like, hit me for the things I said and done that are wrong. | ||
| Hit me for them. | ||
| But she can't deny I made a member of Congress, John Conyers of Zion, through my reporting, which I handed off to media outlets. | ||
| They were not happy about that. | ||
| Buzzfeed had to credit you for that. | ||
| Yeah, they had to. | ||
| I've handed off all kinds of stories to people in all kinds of publications, and I'm not going to out them, but we'll just say the most prestigious publications in the country have run stories where I sourced it or I hand-delivered them something. | ||
| Because me, I took a pivot. | ||
| I wanted to move under the radar a little bit. | ||
| Right, so I'm not asking you, obviously, to blow a source, or you are the source, but to blow a connection. | ||
| Other than to say, I think it's just worth noting, because that line sort of stuck out of that article, and it's like, well, you guys just do it on the DL. | ||
| You're all doing it on the DL, and then you think you're holier than thou, and that one's personal to me. | ||
| Well, it is, and not only that, but... | ||
| The question I always have for people like her is... And again, she gets a lot of hate and everything else. | ||
| I don't want to... Yeah, I don't want to pile on her. | ||
| She gets a ton of irrational hate. | ||
| I'm coming in a position of love. | ||
| If I weren't already completely cynical and jaded, I would say, well, you know, Ms. | ||
| Wise... | ||
| I made a member of Congress resign. | ||
| How many reporters in their entire career can say, I uncovered a secret sexual harassment settlement involving a very powerful member of Congress. | ||
| My reporting led to him resigning. | ||
| How many people can say that? | ||
| How many people can say they wrote a book on mindset? | ||
| We're at 100,000 copies, over 100,000 copies, sold most books. | ||
| How many people can say that? | ||
| How many people can say I broke the Susan Rice unmasking story? | ||
| Massive stories. | ||
|
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H.R. | |
| McMaster, at the time National Security Advisor of the United States of America, held meetings about me. | ||
| Because he was obsessed with me. | ||
| Foreign policy even called me the object of his obsession. | ||
| So hate me or love me, how many people can say in a career that they've done even one of these things that I've done? | ||
| So who's serious and who isn't, right? | ||
| Do you think part of everything we've talked about so far is just that as you mature in a career one way or another that tactics change? | ||
| Well, you become, hopefully you become a better person. | ||
| Um, obviously with me, even things like, you know, there was like a spurg out. | ||
| I'd be like, Oh, this person's spurging out. | ||
| I had a couple of moms like, Hey, you know, my son has autism. | ||
| And I was like, yeah, I just felt kind of bad about it. | ||
| I actually don't even know what that means. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Well, it's, um, when people get a little, um, angry and jittery and maybe throw a temper tantrum. | ||
| Oh, and it's like a slur to autistic people. | ||
| Which I didn't know it was. | ||
| I didn't even know it was. | ||
| So I was like, okay, so I don't say the R word. | ||
| R-E-T-R-D. | ||
| I don't say that anymore. | ||
| Why? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| People read me and their kids are having developmental problems. | ||
| Why would I make them feel shitty? | ||
| Why would I make them feel like they want to just come here? | ||
| Why would I just make them feel shitty? | ||
| And that's the irony of the arguments to no platform people is You become normalized as you become more whatever famous because you get more inputs now it isn't just you and 50 people knuckleheads seeing who can be the most offensive and you're like well why do I want to fashion people I you know they're probably somebody's fat reading me right now and maybe I should try to try to think of a way to lift their mood and did it and then of course | ||
| You know, things that I didn't take seriously before I realized were a problem. | ||
| People would be like, three years ago, you know, anti-Semitism, problem in America. | ||
| I'm like, well, people call me an anti-Semite. | ||
| I don't even talk about this stuff. | ||
| I mean, it's not even my lane. | ||
| You know, if you want to call me a misogynist, it's like, well, there's a conversation to be had. | ||
| But if you're calling me like an Islamophobe or an anti-Semite, it's like, no, no, we're just not even in the same ballpark here. | ||
| But then, you know, like I talk to a lot of my Jewish readers and stuff like, yeah, there is there is a problem. | ||
| And then there was a synagogue shooting. | ||
| So, you know, clearly there's a problem. | ||
| But that's the idea is the more people you talk to, and the more you get out of your own space, and your own little niche, the more you realize, okay, is my behavior really reflecting? | ||
| Well, and then as you become more prominent, Then you start to think, well, anything that I do is going to be used against people who have been nice to me. | ||
| So now I have, so it's called a growing up. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Well, it's all just so stupid because it's like, I, forgetting that the usual suspects will come after me for even doing this. | ||
| It's like, there is probably somebody out there now that I would like to get on the show that simply will not come on the show because I'm doing this right now. | ||
| I mean, even yesterday I, uh, I contacted, uh, Paul Budijadjadj. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| His PR person DM'd me because I asked him to come on the show and we're looking into it But then the blue checkers again, you know calling me all these awful things and it's like what are you guys all doing? | ||
| Like what? | ||
| What is it that they're all trying to accomplish by by de-platforming and destroying everybody? | ||
| Well, it's Turf Wars. | ||
| Something interesting happened when Huffington Post had to lay off a bunch of people. | ||
| Like, oh, everyone's like, oh my god, hire these great minds or whatever. | ||
| And I went to their Twitter accounts. | ||
| I'm like, no, no, you're not. | ||
| You're not interesting. | ||
| You're not. | ||
| This is another basic hot take white male patriarchy. | ||
| Everybody's evil. | ||
| It's like, no, they're fungible. | ||
| What they're doing is they're producing a fungible content, which is Outrage directed at a specific group of people, and then people like you, people like Joe Rogan, they're jealous. | ||
| They're jealous of those people, and they rather than just say, and again, this is like a mindset issue, rather than just say, yeah, I'm kind of jealous of those people, and maybe I ought to figure out what they're doing. | ||
| Maybe I ought to up my own game. | ||
| They want to attack and destroy, and largely that's because left-wing politics today, orthodoxy, is largely based on resentment. | ||
| How do you think, or why do you think Trump got this? | ||
| Like, if we were going back three and a half years ago to that first sit-down, I'm sure I asked you something to that effect at the very nascent version of it. | ||
| But what do you think about Trump? | ||
| Is it that he understands this thing? | ||
| He's a leftist. | ||
| He is. | ||
| He was always a liberal before he became a Republican. | ||
| If you reform leftists are the left's worst nightmare. | ||
| Because psychologically, and I don't know, this is something I haven't heard a good answer for. | ||
| Jordan Peterson kind of touches on it. | ||
| There's a difference between a left-wing brain and a right-wing brain. | ||
| The conservatives, the American Eagles, that sort of campy stuff, and I don't want to be dismissive, but that shit's not me, right? | ||
| I would rather look at Jackson Pollock or something. | ||
| I think that's real art. | ||
| Trump thinks like a leftist, and he's thinking, how can I get under their skin? | ||
| Right? | ||
| I'm going to get under their skin. | ||
| How can I get under their skin? | ||
| Because he understood that that was what brought you cultural relevance and cultural significance, is getting under the skin of the other side, which has now become, memetically, it's called owning the libs. | ||
| So now you have all these people on the right, oh, lol, owning the libs has become a mean of its own. | ||
| And now the left is saying, oh, these people want to own the libs. | ||
| And actually, they say that unfairly sometimes. | ||
| There's a profile on Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk, and they said all they do is own the libs. | ||
| And that was dismissive and untrue. | ||
| But memetically, there is a sense of, oh, we're going to rile them up. | ||
| And Trump is great at riling people up, because his brain, he has a leftist brain. | ||
| It's so interesting, the 2D arguments on a lot of this stuff, because you probably know, I often go to colleges with Candace and Charlie, and yes, are there chants of build the wall, and are they screaming, and all of these things. | ||
| There's a lot of that, but you know what there mostly is? | ||
| I would say 90%. | ||
| It's actually talking about ideas, and we go up there and we talk about the things that we disagree on, but you can't get the media to report on that. | ||
| They will only report on it in the 2D way, and then what that does is, the people that were there, or that see video of it, go, oh, well, you guys are just liars, because that's not really what happened there. | ||
| There's some kids having some fun, chanting. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And that becomes, so that becomes a crisis of confidence. | ||
| And that's why more and more people lose trust in me. | ||
| I'll give you a great example that's sincere, is when I read a Daily Beast article where they said Jacob Wall put this kid up to making a false accusation against Mayor Pete, and we have tape, I was like, I think I said Paul before, by the way, it's Pete, obviously. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| And I thought, oh, they're probably just lying, because they've lied about me before. | ||
| So when I read an article now, I don't think, oh, this isn't forming my opinion. | ||
| I'm like, yeah, they're probably lying. | ||
| Doesn't that suck beyond imagination? | ||
| I mean, if you care about truth in any way whatsoever, and I don't, you know, like anyone watching this, if you care about truth, like during the Jussie Smollett thing, the entire time I was like, this all just reads so wrong. | ||
| But it's not just that the media's lying about it to gin everybody up to start a freakin' race war. | ||
| It's that the politicians then are all tweeting that this is an example of white supremacy in America. | ||
| And Covingtongate, 15-year-old kids. | ||
| You wanna talk about bullying, Cernovich, bully, blah, blah, blah. | ||
| They went after a 15-year-old kid, right? | ||
| Hoax, based on a hoax. | ||
| And then the write-up absolves themselves of all personal responsibilities. | ||
| This kid's coulda got killed. | ||
| So is there a line that you draw then? | ||
| Because the other part of the New York Times article, Weiss's New York Times article, is basically that there needs to be just, well, in this case, she was talking about the IDW, however you want to define that. | ||
| But generally speaking, do you have sort of boundaries of what gatekeeping should be? | ||
| Like, what ideas are so fringe that are so, I mean, people call you a white nationalist. | ||
| Do you believe that America should be a white nationalist? | ||
| Yeah, that's, as I never even written about, that's bizarre about me is they- With your Persian wife? | ||
| Yeah, that's what I would say, like, where does my Persian wife fit into this, right? | ||
| I don't even, I don't even talk about this kind of stuff. | ||
| And when you look at actual immigrant populations, Indians tend to be more innovative. | ||
| There's the idea behind immigration. | ||
| We talked about this in 2015, over three, feels like a decade, over three years ago. | ||
| I'm all for it. | ||
| I'm a believer in we have enough people here making $12 an hour, so we don't need anybody else here who can take $12 an hour jobs. | ||
| But if we can get people who are really brilliant from all over the world, let's skim. | ||
| I'm a cream skimmer. | ||
| I want to bring the smartest people over and bring them all over here and make America a great place for them. | ||
| And they try to say, oh, like, well, I live, my revealed preferences are antithetical to the accusations they make. | ||
| Now, that said, are any ideas off limits? | ||
| And I've always held the belief that no idea is off limits. | ||
| You can talk about anything. | ||
| It's fundamentally how people treat you. | ||
| And there's an example, if there are people, for example, that they want me to do their show and I won't do their show because I just don't like them. | ||
| Like, you're just a nasty person. | ||
| I don't want to talk to you about anything. | ||
| You're a bad person. | ||
| It isn't that. | ||
| They're too far left for me. | ||
| And then, of course, what I thought was funny to you is I always see people tweeting out that you won't have a socialist on your show, but they won't come on your show. | ||
| Right? | ||
| I mean, I'm sure some socialists would, but I've had plenty of lefties. | ||
| I mean, this argument is so boring. | ||
| It's like, you know. | ||
| It's just never-endingly ridiculous. | ||
| It's like if my lefties that I have on all the time aren't left enough for you, it might be you that's the problem rather than my guest choices. | ||
| Yeah, but there's any ideas, I think people should be able to talk about any kind of ideas. | ||
| Fundamentally, it's how do you treat people? | ||
| And I think that we're seeing now something that I predicted I might have. | ||
| I think I talked about on your show, actually. | ||
| If not, I'll have to rewatch the clip. | ||
| But what happens when you put ideas off limits are there's nobody be like, hey, that was a really dumb thing you said. | ||
| You're just with 50 other people in Discord server trying to one up each other. | ||
| And then you get in a downward spiral, and that's when you have violence, so you shut people down, and then that's when people are starting to get violent, and we're actually, we're seeing that backlash. | ||
| Well, that's why I wake up every day and I'm like, oh, of course the left got worse today, of course they got worse today, of course they got worse today, because I kept saying, guys, we can't call everybody racist. | ||
| We, meaning me as a lefty, too. | ||
| We can't call everybody racist. | ||
| You can't say that everybody who wants stricter immigration than you want, the type of thing that Obama ran on, or Bill Clinton used to talk about all the time, You can't say that they're all racists because of that, but every day there's just another version of that. | ||
| And it seems like there's just no adult in the room anymore. | ||
| I thought Trump would lose for sure in 2020. | ||
| I thought for sure. | ||
| If you'd asked me a year ago, I was like, oh yeah, Trump. | ||
| And the left decided that they didn't. | ||
| You're talking about, well, the baby's born, we'll make her comfortable. | ||
| I don't think the left, so just to be clear, I don't think the left wants to chop off the heads of | ||
| babies. | ||
| But if you can't just say- That's a big concession there, Senator. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, exactly. | ||
| But if you can't just say, because you're so afraid of the mob, | ||
| eh, no, no, no, no, the baby's out of the womb, nobody supports post-birth abortion. | ||
| They can't even say that because they're terrified that the left, oh, so you're saying a woman | ||
| doesn't have complete control. | ||
| They can't even draw any kind of lines, where you're like, look, man, we all know | ||
| eight and a half months, the mother's healthy, there aren't gonna be any kind of complicated... | ||
| And the irony of that, too, is that, It's such a marginal issue to lose on. | ||
| It's like a hill you're dying on. | ||
| Women who are pro-choice don't want to kill their babies. | ||
| Now, there's a pro-lifer saying, well, but life begins at conception. | ||
| That's a different debate. | ||
| But women who are eight and a half months pregnant are not trying to go to the clinic. | ||
| But the left is so afraid of freaking out their base of just feral monsters or whatever that they won't even just say what I just said, which is so not controversial. | ||
| No, I know. | ||
| So they have to make everything sound like it's OK. | ||
| And then, as I say all the time, then it's like for me, who's begrudgingly pro-choice, I mean, I still am, even though I've heard far more compelling pro-life arguments than pro-choice arguments at this point. | ||
| It makes my position impossible to hold because I know I'm holding this temporary position on quicksand because I know these guys are going off the deep end. | ||
| And that's why they're They're creating their own backlash. | ||
| My wife and I, we talk about if we're going to be Christians and go to church because you just look around and it's so debased now. | ||
| There's going to be a big revolution of Christianity or Islam or something where people are just sick of the degeneracy. | ||
| I was always pro-gay marriage before. | ||
| It was a thing, because I was a libertarian. | ||
| 20 years ago in law school, I was like, dude, why can't adults enter into contracts? | ||
| Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. | ||
| But 11-year-old kids on stage with dollar bills throwing at them. | ||
| Sorry, dude. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| For the record, that has nothing to do with gay marriage. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| I'm very libertarian. | ||
| If you want to be a drag queen, a transgender, I don't care, man. | ||
| It's your life's hard, whatever you do to help you get through it is fine. | ||
| Well, there's an, somebody tweeted this, I wish I knew who it was, but they were saying | ||
| how the left was lauding this 11-year-old drag queen, and guys are throwing bills at this kid. | ||
| They're saying, that's amazing, but now this 14-year-old that we referenced earlier, | ||
| who's making edgy jokes on YouTube, ah, that's an alt-right racist. | ||
| And it's like, pick one, guys. | ||
| Which way are we going here? | ||
| Well, and that's the problem. | ||
| The left doesn't have a governing moral standard outside of victimization. | ||
| Who's the biggest victim and how can we... Nietzsche talked about this in The Inversion of Values and the story of the tarantulas. | ||
| This has all been prophesied by him. | ||
| So, like, the 14 year old kid, for example, Soph. | ||
| You watch her, and they're saying, oh my god, she's talking about killing gay people. | ||
| And then you watch the video and go, no, no, no, it's actually meta-commentary. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right? | |
| She's pointing out the hypocrisy of, well, if you criticize Islam, you're Islamophobic. | ||
| Well, okay, but you know, gays maybe don't do so well. | ||
| Maybe it's fair to ask that question. | ||
| No, no, no, you can't do that. | ||
| So she's doing it in her deadpan delivery style. | ||
| And when I watch them, I'm like, wow, she's more talented than me. | ||
| Now, if somebody said, where are the parents? | ||
| I'd be like, well, OK, you know, that's the more they're child actors. | ||
| And is she being protected from groomers? | ||
| But then if you try to apply that same standard to Desmond, it's amazing. | ||
| Now you're a bigot and you just hate everybody else. | ||
| You hate trans people, you hate gay people. | ||
| Da, da, da, da, da. | ||
| So there's no universal standard that you just apply. | ||
| And you apply it evenly down the board. | ||
| Do you think that will lead to a resurgence in religion? | ||
| And I think this has a little bit to do with sort of the Jordan Peterson phenomenon over the last year. | ||
| He's not telling people to be religious in practice per se, but he's explaining why the stories of religion have value. | ||
| And I do, I see that. | ||
| I mean, I traveled the world with the guy and I saw it happening in real time. | ||
| Yeah, Jordan Peterson is a secular religionist, which maybe seems counterintuitive, but not really. | ||
| Just the old school virtues. | ||
| I think Aristotle is going to come back. | ||
| Ryan Holiday popularized the Stoics, right? | ||
| So Ryan Holiday has his own, you know, books on Stoicism and the idea of dealing with the world, trying to live virtuously, trying to be a good person. | ||
| And you're going to see a return of virtue. | ||
| That will absolutely, it's already making a comeback. | ||
| I'm less of a piece of shit sometimes because I look around and I'm like, I don't want to, like, I've seen the mirror now. | ||
| Okay, this is me. | ||
| These people that I don't like, that was me three years ago. | ||
| I don't like that. | ||
| That isn't what I want to see. | ||
| So I'm in my own way living my own virtuous life, which makes me contrite about some things while still having the sense of, but I'm not going to apologize to the people who are doing it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It's complex. | |
| All right, so let's back up to the censorship stuff, because obviously now, so Alex Jones has been booted from YouTube, then last week or 10 days ago or so, Facebook and what else was it? | ||
| Instagram took him, Paul Joseph Watson, Laura Loomer, a couple others. | ||
| First off, do you see any meaningful distinction between any of these people? | ||
| How do you paint Paul Joseph Watson? | ||
| You could say guilt by association with Alex Paul is the most aboveboard, clean-cut, all-hits-above. | ||
| I'm pretty sure if we now post this video on Facebook, you've now said something nice about him. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| My page could probably be deleted. | ||
| No, that's actually true. | ||
| That's funny. | ||
| I remember I read a book called The Commissar Vanishes. | ||
| Everyone should watch or read this book, or at least pretend to have read it to be a cultured person. | ||
| And they would show how pictures would be edited as Stalin would have people killed. | ||
| These people would be edited out of pictures. | ||
| And I remember reading this 20 years ago. | ||
| I can't believe that ever happened. | ||
| And I'm like, no, I can totally believe it happened. | ||
| Now you can see it. | ||
| And I see the parallels. | ||
| And they ban people for off-platform conduct, but they won't ban the people who make fake videos of my wife and daughter for disinformation. | ||
| And I don't see how Milo's, he's cleaned up his act. | ||
| If anything, he'd become kind of sick, you know, anymore. | ||
| But do you see any distinction between any of these people? | ||
| Is there somebody that's done something that you think is so overboard? | ||
| No, definitely not overboard. | ||
| Alex Jones, people forget to mention. | ||
| He's apologized for Sandy Hook so many times. | ||
| Repeatedly. | ||
| He went on Joe Rogan. | ||
| I didn't realize that my followers were nuts and were going to go harass his parents and I wish I'd have known. | ||
| It's like, okay, we're sorry, bro. | ||
| What are we supposed to do? | ||
| And then they wipe him out. | ||
| So there was nothing any of them said that was over the top. | ||
| So what do we do then that, forgetting the specifics of him, I happen to like Paul a lot, and I think his videos are good, and I think he's funny, and I think he gets some of the culture stuff that you're talking about, not some of it, I think he probably gets all of it, probably gets a lot of it, in a way that I don't even get, let's say. | ||
| But these all happen to be right-leaning people. | ||
| A lot of lefties can get away with a lot of stuff. | ||
| We've referenced some of it already. | ||
| Yeah, well, anybody who doesn't think Facebook is the new Russia is missing the trend. | ||
| This is election interference. | ||
| And they're going after pro-Trump influencers, people who have cultural cachet, people who can get votes for Trump, and they're getting rid of them before it becomes too hot to handle. | ||
| Once we're full in primary season, it'll be too on the nose as election interference. | ||
| So it's election interference. | ||
| 100% that's why they're doing it. | ||
| They're banning influential pro-Trump people. | ||
| They're silencing them. | ||
| And not by any kind of rules. | ||
| So here's an example. | ||
| I'm not putting anybody on blast. | ||
| These are my friends and everything. | ||
| I'll just say that I've messaged people before. | ||
| Some people you name and some you haven't said, I think this is, you shouldn't say this. | ||
| I think this is kind of nasty. | ||
| It's not a very nice thing. | ||
| Not, it wasn't hate speech, but their Facebook doesn't say, Hey, you know, this is like a nasty thing. | ||
| Don't say this. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Don't refer to Muslims as animals. | ||
| For example, right. | ||
| This is like a pretty clear rule. | ||
| If you refer to Muslims as filthy jihadis, like, okay, bro, you know, come on. | ||
| Well, you can call Jews cockroaches. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, exactly. | ||
| So there is that double standard element. | ||
| And you can't, like, meet with them. | ||
| And they're like, OK, here's the 10 things you did wrong. | ||
| You're going to come back in a probationary period. | ||
| No bullshit. | ||
| You better just be, if you feel like you're close to the line, don't even go near the line. | ||
| That's what you would do in a functioning, working system that was actually trying to make the world a better place and increase the value of the conversation and not interfere and manipulate the election. | ||
| You would just say, look, this is a bad thing you said. | ||
| Here's why. | ||
| This is the rule. | ||
| Don't say it. | ||
| There's none of that. | ||
| So do you think platforms just cannot exist as they have existed for the last five or ten years, and that they've become too much of a sort of informational behemoths? | ||
| There are so many voices on there competing, and then you've got a social justice mentality out of Silicon Valley, that it's all the inequities. | ||
| So when Tim Pool has to explain this right to Jack's face on Joe Rogan, it all looks ridiculous, because it is ridiculous. | ||
| Well, they have monopolies, and this is something that isn't mentioned enough. | ||
| There's a guy, there's like a new upstart rock fan that's trying to explain this. | ||
| Well, there's something called Metcalfe's Law, which is there's a formula where the value of the network increases synergistically based on more people you have. | ||
| And what YouTube did, and this is why I don't have any sympathy for the other private companies, they can do whatever they want. | ||
| No, they can't. | ||
| Here's why. | ||
| Joe Rogan built YouTube. | ||
| PewDiePie built YouTube. | ||
| They brought all the people who liked them onto YouTube. | ||
| YouTube provided a platform. | ||
| Bullshit. | ||
| We all remember what YouTube said. | ||
| Come on up. | ||
| You can say anything. | ||
| Bring all your people. | ||
| And then they built that network up. | ||
| And then once YouTube had the network effect, and networks, Peter Thiel talks about this in Zero to One and his other writings, networks tend towards monopolization. | ||
| So, once they have a monopoly now on video, which YouTube has, Facebook and Twitter, they'll have their own respective monopolies, then they say, oh, you gotta go, and then these free market conservatives, well, it's a private company, they can do whatever they want, no it isn't, it's fraud. | ||
| They lied to people to get people to put their time and their resources, thousands of hours on their channel, To build that network under Metcalfe's law, and now they're changing the rules, it's civil freedom. | ||
| All right, so let's dive into this a little bit more, because you've probably seen my tweets on this, and this is pushing my libertarian side to its end point. | ||
| I feel like that's what's happening right now, is that I know right this second, by having you on, or for not even having you on, for any reason, could they pull the plug right this second. | ||
| If I had to bet my life right now, have they depressed the views of this livestream? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| My channel has over a million subscribers. | ||
| We're getting 20,000 views on some things. | ||
| Are they fucking with us? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Is Twitter shadow banning? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Has it all gotten worse, oddly, since I had James O'Keefe? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I mean, we could do like a list of all of this shit, right? | ||
| But putting that aside for a second, my core libertarian belief is that I would prefer that competition solve this. | ||
| Why do you think that that's not a sound argument? | ||
| Because they're natural monopolies. | ||
| A social media company, a tech company, is a natural monopoly. | ||
| A power company is a natural monopoly. | ||
| Standard Oil is a natural monopoly. | ||
| The railway tracks are a natural monopoly. | ||
| So you have certain industries that tend towards monopolization. | ||
| And if you have a monopoly, you can't have a free market competition, due to the economy scales and the Metcalfe's Law. | ||
| Now, the counter to that, but this would be counterfactual, is if five years ago YouTube had said, hey, come onto our platform, We might ban you, just because we don't like you, we don't like what you're saying, or some middle manager doesn't like you. | ||
| We might ban you, but come on up and put your videos on here. | ||
| Well, then you would have had somebody say, oh no, come on over here. | ||
| You would have had a real competition. | ||
| So these social media, they all know, I mean, this is zero to one. | ||
| These are natural monopolies. | ||
| This has been, it was a priori, this is what people thought, and it's been established a posteriori, that they're natural monopolies. | ||
| So there is no free market. | ||
| Here's the odd part. | ||
| Okay, let's buy your argument just for the sake of this. | ||
| So let's say we completely buy that, right? | ||
| Well, now what I see happening is I see conservatives saying, where is Trump? | ||
| Where is Trump? | ||
| The government's got to come in and break it up or they've got to regulate these things or whatever. | ||
| Now, I understand this might be a moment. | ||
| Where you might want to do this, especially if what you just laid out about 2020 is true. | ||
| You might want to do it right now, but would you, Mike Cernovich, want to hand that power over to the government when it's very possible Trump loses, and then you've got Silicon Valley full of postmodern leftists, and then you've got Bernie in the White House, and then what do you have? | ||
| They'll do it anyway. | ||
| Obama ordered the IRS to investigate all these people and illegal audits done under John McCain and Obama. | ||
| So to me, the thinking is this tit for tat. | ||
| So if we're running a game theory simulation, well, if I do it, they'll do it. | ||
| I'll do it. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| But they've already done it and they do it. | ||
| It's the same thing with tweets. | ||
| People go, well, don't you think by digging up tweets, They might retaliate. | ||
| And I'm like, oh, so they might dig up my tweets 10,000 times? | ||
| Oh my God. | ||
| And that's where we are. | ||
| The left, they're going to do it anyway. | ||
| Now, the irony of this conversation is if Hillary Clinton had won, none of this would have happened. | ||
| Because, here's why. | ||
| They should let these idiots over there bark in the corner. | ||
| They don't have any real power. | ||
| What they learned is there's real influence, there's real power. | ||
| These people aren't just, remember E-Celeb? | ||
| Oh, this is an E-Celeb. | ||
| You don't hear that much anymore. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Because people realize the idea. | ||
| Because it's actually jumped. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| The regular Celeb. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| Like, when I walk around, I remember when I was at the RNC, there was an MSNBC guy there, I think Chris Hayes is his name, but more people recognized me than him, just from E-Celeb, right? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And they would have been happy. | ||
| Let these people scream and rant and rave while we actually govern. | ||
| And then they realized that no, they do have real influence. | ||
| Now we have to do something about it. | ||
| And the big trend now is they're getting rid of the big pro-Trump influencers. | ||
| Now they're nudging. | ||
| There's a great book that everybody should read called Nudge, and the idea is how can you as a government help people make better choices? | ||
| The prototypical example is organ donors. | ||
| If you just have people opt in, it's a good thing, societal good, donate organs. | ||
| We all agree. | ||
| If you ask people, do you want to donate? | ||
| Most people say no. | ||
| If you just say, do you want to opt out? | ||
| Most people say, no, I'll be one. | ||
| So that's a nudge. | ||
| You're not telling people what to do, you're just nudging them. | ||
| That's where the tech trend now is. | ||
| So if people Google Dave Rubin, they're going to find the hate pieces. | ||
| They're going to find the hate articles. | ||
| And they're going to bury anything about you and your channel. | ||
| And that's another way that the narrative is being manipulated and the narrative is being influenced. | ||
| So what would you want then, right now, for Trump to do? | ||
| Or the government, related to all the tech companies. | ||
| Okay, well, it's too late now, but if I had a magic wand, then when Trump had a Republican majority in both houses, they would have said, you know what? | ||
| Why is it that if somebody libels me on Facebook, I can't sue Facebook? | ||
| Facebook says, well, we're a platform, not a publisher, you can't. | ||
| So they have CDA section 230, just abolish it. | ||
| No, you want to be publishers now, and you want to... Just to clarify this for people that aren't fully on all this, the idea of the platform versus publisher argument, Yeah, go ahead. | ||
| Okay, so there's a provision of the Millennial Digital Copyright Act, or CDA, Comedian Decency Act, Section 230. | ||
| And under this act, it says that no platform will be liable for third-party content. | ||
| Example, I'm sure there's right now somebody on YouTube calling me the most awful things that I could sue them for. | ||
| I can't sue YouTube for that. | ||
| I can go sue that anonymous bro for that. | ||
| Only because Section 230 exists. | ||
| And the rationale behind that was, I mean, you can't expect Facebook to please two billion people. | ||
| They're just providing a platform for people to share their minds. | ||
| But they're not a publisher like the New York Times, or like you. | ||
| So you, Dave Rubin, you're a publisher. | ||
| If you say something bad, OK, well, you're a publisher. | ||
| You're not a platform. | ||
| And YouTube is fine, though. | ||
| So the idea is, well, no, they're acting as publishers. | ||
| Now they're calling themselves publishers. | ||
| Because they are now deciding who can and cannot be on these Right, okay, so you don't get this precious little immunity anymore. | ||
| Now, you would limit it so, you know, some guy with a blog or something, right? | ||
| You would say anybody with revenues over a billion dollars a year or something like that shall be held liable, and you eliminate that. | ||
| And then what's going to happen? | ||
| Well, the tech companies would freak out, right? | ||
| Tough luck, you're publishers now. | ||
| So you'd hold them to that. | ||
| Two is, the FTC fighting against Facebook, make it $20 billion. | ||
| We all know that you and I are here, and I said, oh boy, I sure am playing a game of basketball. | ||
| And then we all know there's going to be an ad that's going to appear for Spalding basketball. | ||
| We just know it. | ||
| We know they're spying on us. | ||
| We know this is illegal. | ||
| We know this is wiretap. | ||
| Criminally prosecute them. | ||
| Indict them. | ||
| Indict them under the Federal Wiretap Act. | ||
| These are all laws on the books. | ||
| And by the way, what they're doing, and again, this goes back to the glibness of our age, where because everything's outrageous, nothing is. | ||
| It truly is outrageous that even if you opt out of Facebook's spying program, they still spy on you. | ||
| Even if you do everything right, they can still spy on you. | ||
| This is human spying. | ||
| Like, indict him. | ||
| Indict him. | ||
| Federal recokiss. | ||
| So in that, Trump doesn't have Congress now, and did not do these things. | ||
| Well, DOJ could do that without him. | ||
| So DOJ could indict Facebook for privacy violations. | ||
| The Federal Trade Commission could say $5 billion isn't enough. | ||
| You need to pay $20 billion. | ||
| $100 billion. | ||
| There's nothing enough. | ||
| A DOJ antitrust enforcement could go after YouTube. | ||
| So there's already enough laws in the books, too, which is why people are like, there's already laws here. | ||
| We don't need a new law. | ||
| What do you think Trump's thinking right now, if you had to get in that head? | ||
| Trump thinks that he won with his Samsung and iPhone. | ||
| Trump is so oblivious to what is happening. | ||
| Trump's greatest flaw And this triggers Trump supporters, but that's the beauty of being fringe. | ||
| I can trigger everybody and make them mad. | ||
| A good leader is worried about the troops. | ||
| A good leader is like, what's going on with the troops? | ||
| He doesn't care. | ||
| Trump cares about Trump. | ||
| And it always triggers, I'll probably lose 5,000 Twitter followers. | ||
| I don't care. | ||
| Actually, I got rid of most of them, but Trump cares about Trump. | ||
| So in Trump's world, he's not thinking about these people downstream. | ||
| He's living his own life or whatever. | ||
| Do you find that to be an odd sort of disconnect then? | ||
| Because obviously what catapulted him was to be in touch with that. | ||
| But do you think that's just a nature of now you've attained power, so you just sort of disconnect from that? | ||
| No, he always thought I was just his phone. | ||
| No, no. | ||
| I mean, I've talked to people with personal knowledge and everything. | ||
| No, no. | ||
| He doesn't—he doesn't think the Facebook ads, Cambridge Analytica ban—he just thinks he won with his phone. | ||
| That is really Trump. | ||
| The beauty of Trump—and this is why every time I criticize him, I smile, too, because he's unlike anything we've ever had, at least in my lifetime. | ||
| And the beauty of him is he's so Self-confident that you can't take him down. | ||
| I mean, if the media went after me the way they went after him, I probably would have a panic attack or something. | ||
| I'd probably have PTSD. | ||
| But that self-confidence is also based in just a total self-involvement. | ||
| Where in his world, it's like, I just tweet it and the magic happens. | ||
| He doesn't realize, no, I mean, there's network nodes and there's ways of messaging it across. | ||
| It just doesn't work this way. | ||
| So do you think he's a failure, then? | ||
| I mean, this strikes me, the free speech stuff and the platform stuff, I mean, you know that's my core stuff. | ||
| I mean, do you think he's a failure, then? | ||
| If everything you're sort of predicting here is gonna happen. | ||
| It's a leadership failure. | ||
| Yeah, he failed when he fired General Flynn, and he let General Flynn plead guilty, and he didn't pardon General Flynn. | ||
| That was a major failing. | ||
| It's one that I will not forgive. | ||
| So what people don't understand is, General, there's Deep State or whatever, which is just another way of thinking of the bureaucracy. | ||
| The people, you're going to go to D.C. | ||
| and you think you're hot shit. | ||
| You're AOC, you're hot. | ||
| There's people there before you, and there's people who are going to be there after you. | ||
| So is that how you would describe Deep State? | ||
| Because I know people are going to say Rubin had conspiracy theorists. | ||
| Oh, that's another one. | ||
| I forgot about that one. | ||
| So yeah, Deep State is, you think you're hot shit? | ||
| It's just like Hollywood. | ||
| It's the industry. | ||
| When people talk about Hollywood, they talk about the industry. | ||
| I'm a big star. | ||
| I know you got three years. | ||
| Billy Corgan talked about this in Joe Rogan. | ||
| You got three years, Mr. Corgan and Smashing Pumpkins. | ||
| The industry is going to be there before you. | ||
| It's going to be there after you. | ||
| And the Deep State is essentially that, the bureaucracy, this Byzantine complex of people and networks. | ||
| So you could argue whether that's good or bad, and why it maybe has to exist in some huge country, but it's not a conspiracy. | ||
| You're not saying that there's some sort of... No. | ||
| Because I think people think automatically you mean that there's some sort of group that is some sort of shadowy... Right. | ||
| Right. | ||
| That's because they don't... Well, there is and there isn't. | ||
| I mean, I've been part of conspiracies. | ||
| Everybody's been part of a conspiracy. | ||
| Ryan Hawley's book, Conspiracy. | ||
| I wasn't part of that conspiracy, but that was a conspiracy. | ||
| Suing Gawker was a conspiracy, an actual conspiracy, orchestrated by Peter Thiel and Mr. A or Mr. X or whatever. | ||
| And they took down Gawker. | ||
| So the deep state conspiracy is just in terms of there were people that were pro-Trump. | ||
| And they saw what Trump did to General Flynn. | ||
| They're out. | ||
| Peace. | ||
| See you, you know, when you leave town. | ||
| That was a major leadership failing. | ||
| This is a major moral failing of him. | ||
| General Flynn had Trump's back when that meant something. | ||
| Well, that was hard. | ||
| Now everybody, oh, you know, you can, you can grift, you can make all that money off of him or whatever. | ||
| Flynn had Trump's back, so I won't forgive that. | ||
| And the, the good guys or whatever, the deep state people want to talk about. | ||
| So he's, that's absolutely a moral failing, it's a leadership failing, and largely that has to deal with His energy, his masculine energy, is still very shadow. | ||
| He isn't that fully integrated, fully self-possessed man who realizes you're a servant leader. | ||
| You're President of the United States. | ||
| You never heard me say hardly anything bad about Obama. | ||
| I still want to this day didn't like his policy. | ||
| Obama had a sense outside of himself. | ||
| And Trump doesn't have that sense of, you know what, I'm, this is a major responsibility. | ||
| Now, the flip side is if Trump felt that way, he might have a nervous breakdown because of the attacks. | ||
| So it's all very complicated. | ||
| I mean, that's a seriously weird and warped psychological situation because it's like, yeah, if he was maybe more evolved, let's say, all the hate would probably get to him in a way that would crush any human being. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| He's not, so it offers the defense, which is allowing him to function. | ||
| Exactly, yeah. | ||
| That's something. | ||
| No, I've spent a lot of time thinking about Trump, and even when I think about him, even when I'm criticizing a guy, I smile, there's just this affection where it's like, son of a bitch, that's just who he is, right? | ||
| And if he weren't that person, nobody could have withstood the attacks that Trump withstood. | ||
| No human being ever, I don't know if in the history of the world, But you'd be crushed. | ||
| And every day he just kept showing up. | ||
| He doesn't—you know how the presidency ages people? | ||
| He's a 72-year-old man. | ||
| I think he's 50, right? | ||
| In my mind. | ||
| Right. | ||
| I read his books. | ||
| Right. | ||
| He doesn't seem to be aging the way they're supposed to age. | ||
| No. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Because he doesn't have that moral complexity and nuance that would—when you walk in, | ||
|
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you're like, holy fuck, man, I'm the president of the United States. | |
| What the fuck is this, right? | ||
| You just get in like, yep, Oval Office, son of a bitch, bring me a diet coke. | ||
| Change those—change the drapes. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| These drapes are ugly. | ||
| We need to refurbish this old, dusty place. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What—OK. | |
| It's a good thing. | ||
| If, for the people watching this, that are gonna selectively edit it, that no matter what either of us say, gonna do whatever they're gonna do, if you were to try to offer a little out of this mutually shared destruction, what would you want out of them? | ||
| What would you wanna see that might get us out of this mess? | ||
| I don't think you wanna be suing these guys, and you were explaining some of this stuff with your daughter and your wife before, and you can expand on it here if you want, but I know that's not fun. | ||
| That's not fun. | ||
| Well, there's different layers to it. | ||
| So one is, to the really creepy evil people, they're always gonna be creepy and evil, and I'm dealing with them in ways that they, you know, they have no idea. | ||
| But the people in the middle, the people who, they're on my beat. | ||
| This is what gets me. | ||
| Everything I do, they tweet about, they write about, they know what's happening. | ||
| Say the fucking right thing. | ||
| Just say, you know what? | ||
| I don't like Cernovich, he's a scumbag. | ||
| This is fucked up. | ||
| No more of this bullshit. | ||
| Call it your own side. | ||
| That would be my message, because if they don't, people are gonna get more and more and more militant. | ||
| There's no reason in the world, multiple reporters attend my events, if a Jewish guy gets, and it shouldn't matter that he's Jewish, but I just bring it up to show how complicated it is, a white Antifa guy beats up a Jewish Trump supporter, but the article in The Guardian is angry white men party with Cernovich. | ||
| No, no, no, the angry white men beat the fuck out of some Jewish guy. | ||
| No, no, no, you're just, you're just liars. | ||
| So, the decent people in the middle, Hey, I don't need you to love me. | ||
| You can dislike me. | ||
| That's fine. | ||
| But if you know something's wrong, none of this owes my side. | ||
| Don't pretend like you don't know. | ||
| Don't pretend like it's not on your beat. | ||
| Don't pretend like you can't write about it when you write about everything else that I do or that happens to me. | ||
| Just do the right thing. | ||
| Have some integrity. | ||
| It's a gut check time for everybody. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And likewise, Likewise, I called out, the minute that salute bullshit happened, I was right there, like, who are these people? | ||
| That Nazi salute thing? | ||
| You know, I was Kukovich, and, you know, K-I-K-E-O, I was, you know, every, I was the victim of anti-Semitic slurs, which shows you what weird world we live in, but I just said, alright, dude, like, Nazi salutes, okay, this wasn't what I thought it was, I thought you guys were just, you know, trying to have different ideas, you're bad people, and the left, Zantifa, this is violence. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Call it out! | |
| So is part of the problem that they, we sort of hit on this earlier, but they can always get away with it. | ||
| Like the machine somehow moves to always let them get away with it. | ||
| So for example, when Biden put out his video announcing that he was running for president, | ||
| it was based on the lie that Trump was saying that there were good people on both sides | ||
| of the Charlottesville marches. | ||
| And it's very clear right before that nobody shows it, but Trump said, and his language, | ||
| look, the way he speaks is weird. | ||
| His sentence structure is weird. | ||
| He backs up and forwards and reverses around and does all these weird things. | ||
| And maybe there'll be a book written on the psychology of why he speaks that way or whatever, | ||
| or all his strange intonations and all that. | ||
| But he clearly didn't say there were good people on both sides, meaning that the Nazi side was good. | ||
| He meant some of the people that didn't want the statue taken down were good, and he condemned the racists and the white Nazis, but they know they can get away with it. | ||
| So every few months, the video just goes viral again because CNN people retweeted it and the blue check, and it's like, man. | ||
| Well, that's called the erosion of trust. | ||
| Here's the way I try to explain to people who don't live in this bizarre world that you live in, and I live in probably in the weeds a little bit even more than you do, which is, imagine, I don't know whoever made this glass company thing, I drink it and a piece of glass goes in my mouth and I report on I'm bleeding. | ||
| It'd be like a PR crisis. | ||
| Town halls. | ||
| What is going on? | ||
| Like when Tylenol had contaminated bottles. | ||
| Town halls. | ||
| Brand trust. | ||
| You now have, even Democrats don't trust the media anymore. | ||
| This should be treated, if you're in the media and you believe, so like let's just say I'm thinking in terms of a journalist acting in good faith. | ||
| And I'm speaking to a journalist acting in good faith. | ||
| You don't have any influence anymore because you won't call out your side. | ||
| So then when you do attack me or other people or even people who are legitimately bad, nobody's going to believe you. | ||
| You'll never take out the Jacob Walls of the world. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because even I don't believe the articles I read about him. | ||
| I'm like, ah, you know, maybe he did, maybe he didn't. | ||
| They're probably just making it up. | ||
| I just don't believe it. | ||
| And if you're a journalist and you really want to tell the truth and you want to speak truth to power, You're done. | ||
| It's over. | ||
| You don't have any influence. | ||
| And the only power... They don't think about this because they're not philosophical people. | ||
| The media's power comes from moral legitimacy. | ||
| There's this thing. | ||
| I wrote it. | ||
| You read it. | ||
| You realize that what you're reading about is bad, and you want to take some kind of action. | ||
| The minute it's all tabloid gossip, you're not going to take any action. | ||
| They'll never be able to effectuate any change. | ||
| So if we're too far gone on this, because that's sort of where I'm realizing now, it's like, okay, you know, 20, 40 years ago we had ABC, CBS, NBC, they were all basically within a certain prism, one leaned one way, one leaned the other, but it was, you basically as a nation got a certain amount of similar information. | ||
| Now we split it off a gajillion different ways. | ||
| There's a lot of good out of that, and it's allowed other voices, and I would say I'm included in that. | ||
| It's allowed me to do this, so I'm not complaining about it fully, but that the ultimate risk is we will continue to just crumble off into different ways that you are going to be walking down the street, and it'll be basically like everybody that you look at will be living in another digital world. | ||
| And then what does that leave us in reality? | ||
| Yeah, there's multiple ways of thinking about it. | ||
| One is a term people are going to hear more and more about is fourth generation warfare, 4GW, which is just the idea of you have decentralized armies now where the armies aren't in a uniform and you don't know who it is and who isn't, right? | ||
| It's decentralized. | ||
| Very Philip K. Dick. | ||
| Yeah, and now we're in a world where it's decentralized memetics, where, well, there's nobody really, even Joe Rogan said this, he goes, he said, I used to watch CNN and I don't even trust CNN anymore. | ||
| That used to be, you know, that's why they got bad ratings, because they were honest and nuanced and everything like that. | ||
| And I think that's probably a bad thing, society's going to fracture. | ||
| And then I think, well, I remember we had, and that's the way it was, we went to Vietnam, killed a bunch of people, dumped all this chemicals, Agent Orange on them. | ||
| I've been to museums in Vietnam, the deformed faces, and the landmines are still there. | ||
| And because of what the US did in Vietnam and flew over Cambodian airspace, the Kramer Rouge rose up, and there's still little children with legs being blown off because there are minefields everywhere. | ||
| And we were united. | ||
| So we united America. | ||
| We got Vietnam War. | ||
| We got the war in Iraq based on lies about WMDs. | ||
| We had the Cold War scare. | ||
| It's a decentralized world where you actually have to gain consensus. | ||
| Maybe that's better. | ||
| Maybe it's better that you have to say, you know what, you might not like these people, but you can work together on an issue. | ||
| You have to have some kind of consensus now rather than a centralized authority figure telling you what to do or what to think. | ||
| Or it could be awful. | ||
|
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|
Right, and that is the unanswered question. | |
| But it's so interesting because I do see, for whatever frustrations or distance I have with some of the people on the right right now, and we've talked about some of them here, it's like I see these people willing to talk about things, and it's like I don't meet any racists. | ||
| Well, I only get invited by conservatives and libertarians and people on the right. | ||
| I don't see any racists. | ||
| I don't see bigots. | ||
| I don't see homophobes. | ||
| I don't see misogynists. | ||
| Any of these things. | ||
| I see something very rich and interesting happening there, and it's not what I ever would have thought because I was only getting information. | ||
| From one side. | ||
| Well, you're being told what to think. | ||
| And this idea that you passively consume news, and this is ironically that Soap video, she talked about the same thing. | ||
| She said, we're Gen Z, we don't trust anything. | ||
| And by the way, that's why people, how do people know I falsely accused the rape? | ||
| Well, I knew some Gen Z-er would find it out somehow, because these people are so smart, you know, whatever. | ||
| So you just, you get out, you just put your oppo out there. | ||
| You just say, look, here's all the oppo on me. | ||
| Here's all the oppo on that. | ||
| Let's just bare our souls and then let people decide whether to, you know, like you or not like you or recognize that most people are complicated. | ||
| And, you know, for example, Tupac went to prison for rape, but they don't want to ban Tupac's music from the radio. | ||
| Why is that? | ||
| I mean, he literally went to prison for four years for rape. | ||
| Right. | ||
| There's the new Michael Jackson documentary. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| And it's like, nobody's taking those songs off the radio. | ||
| And I'm not saying they should. | ||
| They shouldn't! | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| But it's this weird thing where we selectively pick, Roseanne's gotta get her syndication taken out. | ||
| Yeah, so we have decentralized network where now you have to have consensus. | ||
| And again, that's why the blue check marks get so frustrated and angry. | ||
| In their world, they're very important people. | ||
| And no, they're not. | ||
| Their legitimacy comes from the publications they work on, but they're shitting on their publications so much by just running garbage that people don't even believe them anymore. | ||
| So now what do you have to do? | ||
| You have to Again, you have to be an adult. | ||
| Caitlin Johnstone, she got a bunch of heat because, you know, some of my views are economic populist, which, left-wing. | ||
| I believe in a living wage. | ||
| I don't know that I believe $15 is the right minimum wage, da-da-da-da. | ||
| Some of my ideas would be quite offensive to you, including that I think CEO pay should be tagged to the median worker salary. | ||
| I don't think you should have a CEO 300, and I'm, you know... Going far left, man! | ||
| Right! | ||
| So if you're a lefty, you're like, well, I think Cernovich is kind of a bad guy. | ||
| Don't really like him that much. | ||
| But that's a good idea. | ||
| Why don't we work together on that idea? | ||
| Or not. | ||
| But those are the conversations people are going to have now, where you can't just come out and say, this is the way it is, or this is the way it was, and people blindly believe you and trust you. | ||
| So give me some predictions, because I know people love being in the prediction game. | ||
| So you've been sort of critical of Trump here, but I know you have a sort of basic, you sort of like it still, or at least better than the alternatives. | ||
| What do you think is going to happen here? | ||
| The Democrats are having a knife fight. | ||
| They should have won 2020. | ||
| It should be no problem. | ||
| But there's in me I was I'm kind of like you like the first trimester on abortion, you know, I'm a little squishy on that But I'm becoming like just a pro-lifer because you see this Brian Sims guy harassing teenage and just like Frick all these people Let's just sit with that one for a sec. | ||
| Is that another perfect example of the double standards? | ||
| It's like if that had been a young conservative, big buff conservative politician, state senator, anywhere else doing something reverse so it wasn't at an abortion clinic, the media would have destroyed him and they would have said this is Trump's America, this is the evil and the patriarchy and all of those things and instead did CNN even touch the piece? | ||
| Did they cover the the rally that happened after or any of No, they ignore it, or if they ignore it, the story becomes a backlash. | ||
| Right, if the guy pounces, they pounce. | ||
| Pounces on this guy. | ||
| You guys are always pouncing. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And what gets me is, that's a, he should be banned from social media. | ||
| He used Periscope to incite, he offered money to dox underage girls. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And said, let's go to their house. | ||
| Okay, there's no, in no world is that not, you get banned. | ||
| And this, by the way, happened what, two days after the Alex Jones, Paul Joseph Watson? | ||
| Right, exactly. | ||
| It's like, okay, bro, you gotta be in it. | ||
| And that's where you're learning that the social media companies, they're not regulating behavior, they're regulating ideas. | ||
| Because if you're regulating behavior, and Patreon had the same problem with you. | ||
| They came in and he said, we only regulate behavior. | ||
| And he conned me. | ||
| Everybody believed him. | ||
| He just came off as so credible. | ||
| Like, whoa, what a sociopath. | ||
| You know, he just sat here and was like, yeah, no ideas are off limits. | ||
| Well, when he said manifest observable behavior, which is the acronym is MOB, I should have known something. | ||
| Well, that was, memetically, I found it interesting, too, is we follow the mob rule. | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We follow the mob rule. | |
| Like, come on, man. | ||
| And then, even then, you're like, well, I mean, Lauren Southern was in the boat, and I don't think she actually did it, but you could at least... There are things where you can disagree, but you're like, well, I see where you're coming from. | ||
| I think you made the wrong choice, but I recognize your reasoning and there's your rule. | ||
| And now you realize, no, no, no, they're saying ideas are off limits, you can't talk about certain things. | ||
| You know what my final straw was with them? | ||
| Sorry to interrupt, but it was when the thing happened with Sargon, and I called him. | ||
| I texted him first, we got on the phone for a second, and he immediately said, you'll never be banned. | ||
| Like, jumped before I even said anything, and I thought, whoa, that means I'm gonna be banned. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You know what I mean? | |
| Like, you'll never be banned, as if that would have been enough for me. | ||
| Oh, well ban everybody else, but as long as I'm okay, we're good to go, you know? | ||
| Right. | ||
| But his rule was the right idea of behavior. | ||
| Okay, you're out in public. | ||
| If you're out in public saying, I have these bad ideas, okay, you know, maybe we shouldn't. | ||
| Maybe that's preventing a certain kind of culture. | ||
| I can at least see the reasoning. | ||
| But this guy is inciting the docks of underage girls. | ||
| Sims, now we're talking about. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Yeah, we're not talking about Patriot. | ||
| We're talking about this Philadelphia guy. | ||
| That's a use case. | ||
| You're just like, okay, you gotta ban him. | ||
| And if you don't ban him, you have no rules. | ||
| If that guy won't be banned. | ||
| Or, if I trolled the way I used to troll in 2015, I don't think a lot of people would shed any tears. | ||
| Like, well, you shouldn't be calling people fat. | ||
| That's kind of mean. | ||
| Behavior. | ||
| It isn't ideas, but they're targeting ideas and not targeting behavior. | ||
| And if you're on the left, you can do whatever you want to do on social media. | ||
| So are you saying the ship has sailed, then? | ||
| You think it's over? | ||
| Trump's not going to fix this? | ||
| Even if it was in his purview to fix this, you think it's just over? | ||
| It seems like all stories will still come back to this, this issue. | ||
| There's mass psychology. | ||
| So first of all, I said this at the beginning of the last year. | ||
| It's going to get worse. | ||
| It's going to get worse. | ||
| Social media platforms is just scratching the surface. | ||
| You won't be able to have a bank account. | ||
| You're going to be on a hate... It's already happening to Alex Jones. | ||
| It's happening to Laura Loomer. | ||
| It's happening to a few other people. | ||
| You won't be able to have a bank account. | ||
| Now, the problem with mass human psychology is it tends towards an overcorrection. | ||
| And I got to be careful how I say this because I disavow any kind of violence. | ||
| That's always been my position. | ||
| That said, they're creating people with no livelihood. | ||
| So you can't have a voice. | ||
| You can't have a bank account. | ||
| Those people are either going to go homeless, Or we're going to have our own homegrown jihadis, but they're not Muslims. | ||
| They'll be our own. | ||
| We're creating, literally, with the lesson of terror, and this is why I don't like the way Trump people talk about Muslims. | ||
| I'm going to lose 5,000 more followers. | ||
| I don't care. | ||
| I've tweeted it repeatedly over and over again. | ||
| You do tweet this a lot. | ||
| I disgust it. | ||
| It's disgusting. | ||
| No. | ||
| And not only that, but you radicalize moderate Muslims. | ||
| Because they're like, well, fuck it, these people hate me. | ||
| You know, at least those people. | ||
| Modern Muslims are killed more by the jihadis than any other group of people. | ||
| So I see this stuff and I'm just not only subjectively disgusted, but strategically this is not smart. | ||
| You want to show people, no, no, we have a release valve. | ||
| So what we're doing now is we're creating our own jihadis. | ||
| You know, jihadi is a poor word, but They're like, okay, you can't make a living, you can't have a voice, you can't even have a bank account, so you can either go be homeless somewhere or they'll commit suicide or something, or we know what happens. | ||
| We see what happens in the Islamic world. | ||
| We see what happens when you leave little pockets of people to radicalize. | ||
| This is not difficult to see. | ||
| This is mass ecology. | ||
| Also, this pleasure in the destruction of people. | ||
| And again, you've said at the beginning of this, you've traded in some of this. | ||
| It's like when Laura Loomer was chained outside of Twitter or when she went to Pelosi's house or any of this. | ||
| It doesn't even matter what I think about Laura Loomer or whatever. | ||
| I met her once, briefly. | ||
| The pleasure that I saw people taking in, oh, this woman, this is a human being. | ||
| She has been destroyed. | ||
| She has been destroyed. | ||
| You depersoned her, you unpersoned her. | ||
| And maybe she's having a mental breakdown, or I have no idea. | ||
| I actually have sympathy for her in that regard. | ||
| But it's like, the pleasure that you watch the good guys, the tolerant people, take in destroying people. | ||
| I mean, that is a road to hell right there. | ||
| Yeah, Howard Bloom talks about that in The Lucifer Principle, and there's kind of like a reading list. | ||
| The human nature pessimist reading list would be Howard's Bloom, The Lucifer Principle, and then Sapiens, and then, I don't know, a Jordan Peterson podcast or something. | ||
| But the idea that there's an inherent kind of evil in all of us, and western civilization and and you know there was this is another thing too i don't like about the people who you know attacking there were islamic civilizations in a syrian culture long before western civilization so the confucian culture is quite beautiful the japanese shinto culture but the idea of civilization had tames people and in a way that's productive and healthy and good but there's always that nastiness inside of all of us the inner chimpanzee | ||
| And what's worse is there's no road to reformation. | ||
| There's no road to redemption. | ||
| What do you do? | ||
| Well, Lori Lohman is going to kill herself. | ||
| Okay, that's actually not funny. | ||
| You know, that's not—that isn't funny at all. | ||
| It isn't funny that she's having these problems and these kind of challenges. | ||
| And what's worse is there's no road to reformation. | ||
| There's no road to redemption. | ||
| What do you do? | ||
| She's 24. | ||
| What are you going to do with somebody like that? | ||
| And people should think about that just on a human level, but they should also think about it as a societal level, a systemic level. | ||
| Is it good that we're making people who have nothing to lose? | ||
| Is that good for the social order? | ||
| It's actually quite disastrous. | ||
| People take it for granted because they're glib. | ||
| Do you think a lot of that is just sort of a function of Western success that we don't know? | ||
| I mean, we're roughly the same age. | ||
| they're parts of the world, you're just, you know, we're right here, boom, car bomb goes off. | ||
| Do you think a lot of that is just sort of a function of Western success that we don't know? | ||
| I mean, we're roughly the same age, you know, it's been a pretty good ride. | ||
| Oh, it's been a great ride. | ||
| And it was a better run before us because the United States at a time post-World War II | ||
| had a booming economy, they had low immigration, so you had all the space, the California dream, | ||
| and you could have a good job, people. | ||
| Middle-class lifestyle in California used to be you'd have a house, two cars, take a two-week vacation, maybe have a boat. | ||
| That was just like a normal middle-class life. | ||
| Now that's like a millionaire life, right? | ||
|
unidentified
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I couldn't afford a boat. | |
| And I don't have a boat. | ||
| Right, right, right. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And so we all got spoiled. | ||
| We all got used to it. | ||
| And then the problem everybody's making is you have left-wing populism, which is radical socialism, which has been tried. | ||
| We know how that ends. | ||
| Empirically, we know how it ends. | ||
| And then we have right-wing populism. | ||
| That's why when people ask me about my views, I'm like, I'm economic populist. | ||
| What does that mean? | ||
| I care about the median wage earner. | ||
| When I'm at Costco, And I'm walking out and there's a person whose job is to check my receipt. | ||
| I'm like, ah, you know, I hope that person is able to pay their bills. | ||
| I hope that person is able to maybe have a little bit of leisure time. | ||
| One thing AOC said that I liked, and this is why people who sleep on are making a mistake, is there's this sense that as a human being in the richest country in the world, the only comfort she deserves are animalistic. | ||
| Her words, she's so good, or whoever is her handler. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Animalistic. | |
| Well, it's what they're, it's what they're. | ||
| Animalistic desires. | ||
| And I thought, what a great way to frame it, where you're saying, you're conservatives, you think only people have the right. | ||
| It's their base animalistic desires. | ||
| And we want something more. | ||
| And the human spirit always wants something more. | ||
| There's always this aspirational vision. | ||
| And those are my views. | ||
| Yeah, we do. | ||
| We want—the difference between me and the left and the socialists, I want you to have a living wage. | ||
| But to have a living wage, we have to cap immigration. | ||
| Because it's a basic supply-demand issue. | ||
| This is just basic economics. | ||
| Somehow we forget this. | ||
| And we want people to have a good wage, we want people to have... Now, the libertarians would disagree with you, even though you said you sort of have a lot of libertarian leanings. | ||
| They would say, the pure libertarians would say, open the borders, no tariffs. | ||
| Right, and let's pretend there's no democracy, and people wouldn't come in and vote away every liberty you had. | ||
| That's the beauty of the libertarian position. | ||
| It's kind of like the anarcho-capitalism. | ||
| I like it intellectually. | ||
| I mean, that's what I always say when I've had some of these anarcho guys on, and it's like, I like it intellectually, but this is where I would say a classical liberal is just slightly, basically like a more realistic libertarian. | ||
| Yeah, like, what are you going to do when they come in and we abide by the non-aggression principle? | ||
| Great. | ||
| That's not human nature. | ||
| What are you going to do when they come in to take your shit? | ||
| Well, guess what? | ||
| When you give men weapons—this is the problem where, like, libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism, it's a very sort of male brain, completely ignorant of history and just human nature and human psychology, where you're like, OK, but if you follow the non-aggression principle and you give men guns, They don't just keep following the non-aggression principle. | ||
| That changes the psychology. | ||
| Now you have an army. | ||
| Will armies do things? | ||
| Mission creep. | ||
| This is, again, mass psychology. | ||
| More people should read Extraordinary Delusions and Popular Madness of Crowds. | ||
| And you're like, oh, people talk about the Salem witch trials. | ||
| Okay, we have a witch trials now. | ||
| You're a witch! | ||
| You're a racist! | ||
| You're a homophobe! | ||
| Okay, this is all happening. | ||
| The difference is they would burn them, literally. | ||
| Although, actually, it's ahistorical. | ||
| Not that many people are being burned. | ||
| This is something that becomes part of the popular mythos. | ||
| But now we're making people... In a way, we're making it so people can't make a living. | ||
| Which is... I don't want to say it's worse than killing a person, but that's... I mean, think about it. | ||
| I got a guy fired once. | ||
| I felt really bad about it. | ||
| It wasn't, it wasn't, I did nothing wrong, so to speak, but just on a human level, I was like, you know, it's kind of rough. | ||
| I reported truthfully on what he said and blah, blah, blah. | ||
| And, but this guy will be fine. | ||
| He was Harvard educated, privileged. | ||
| And you think about it, you're executing people. | ||
| This is, but, but, but, but, but, but meanwhile, But you got to take a lot of people out to get to their utopia. | ||
| But if you're in prison, you better come. | ||
| Well, yeah, but I love the left is, oh, you, oh, you commit your prison, you got to come back in society. | ||
| Oh, you made a bad tweet. | ||
| You made a bad joke. | ||
| You said a bad thing. | ||
| You said a bad thing about Muslims. | ||
| Loomer, you know, like, The Uber thing, you know, I was like, Loomer, what are you doing, bro? | ||
| Come on, man. | ||
| Come on. | ||
| You know, I love the kid, but I'm like, come on, bro. | ||
| But that said, that doesn't give you, you're executed. | ||
| You don't deserve, that doesn't merit that behavior. | ||
| That merits the behavior like, hey, you need to come on in, and like, come on, bro. | ||
| This is bullshit. | ||
| And there's no sense of that. | ||
| They want to crush and destroy people. | ||
| So what's gonna happen, it's gonna be, the trends are, And I said this a year and a half ago. | ||
| Domestic terrorism in America is just going to become like a way of life. | ||
| It's just going to be like a thing like in Beirut or whatever. | ||
| You're drinking your espresso and everything and there's always going to be this cloud that something could pop off at any time. | ||
| Because everybody's being radicalized. | ||
| Everybody's being attacked. | ||
| And I'm the guy here like, please, don't let this happen. | ||
| There's ways to avoid it. | ||
| Study the Islamic world. | ||
| Study how you treat moderate Islams. | ||
| You know, you gotta have a pipeline for people. | ||
| And I don't like to say that, but that's my prediction. | ||
| Why do you think you haven't been booted? | ||
| Why were you not included in this whole crew? | ||
| I broke a number of reasons. | ||
| One is I broke a lot of legitimate news stories. | ||
| So I went from troll, whatever that is, to commentator, whatever that is, to like, no, like Susan Rice, like I broke that unmasking story. | ||
| This is a big story. | ||
| I've broken a lot of legitimately newsworthy subjects and I cleaned up my act. | ||
| They're just certain things, and also to luck. | ||
| I've never cared about the transgender thing other than they have a tough go. | ||
| Oh, they're only two genders? | ||
| That's fucking glib. | ||
| I don't like that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
This is glib. | |
| These are people, body dysmorphia is a serious thing, you know. | ||
| There's just a really nastiness undercurrent of a lot of this rhetoric all over. | ||
| So I've never really cared about that other than, you know, this is, they got a tough go. | ||
| You know, I'm not going to add to that. | ||
| And the Islam stuff, I've always been like, you know, I don't like the way people talk about it. | ||
| And those are the two triggers right now. | ||
| So if you're a transphobe or an Islamophobe, that right now is what's getting people going to get people moved away. | ||
| And I just happened to fall on the right side of the issue. | ||
| And then also there, there was a sense I was breaking real news and, So, I think the line's moved and I just barely made it. | ||
| All right, so we did some predictions in some way, but if we had to predict, the blue check guy's watching this right now, what are they going to write about this? | ||
| A number of things. | ||
| One is they don't write about it at all. | ||
| They didn't write about Hoaxed, 106 countries. | ||
| I played a little trick on them when I released the trailer for Hoaxed. | ||
| I deleted every tweet other than the trailer. | ||
| You know what they wrote about? | ||
| Cernovich deletes tweets. | ||
| Trying to cover his butt. | ||
| They didn't write about the trailer. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because it looked good. | ||
| Because you're like, this is a real production, real quality film. | ||
| They never went after Jordan Peterson for being in the film. | ||
| I was wrong. | ||
| I predicted for sure. | ||
| I'm like, poor Jordan. | ||
| Because when Jordan did it, he wasn't Jordan fucking Peterson. | ||
| He was like, Jordan Peterson. | ||
| Hi, how are you? | ||
| I was bigger than him at the time, actually. | ||
| So he was happy to be it, you know? | ||
| And they never went after him for it because the film is so good they don't actually want people watching it. | ||
| So this interview, I think, is so powerful that The angry little weird left people, the freaks, the weird Mike, and the people who support my family being harassed. | ||
| They'll do all the dunking on Twitter, but no outlet media-ite, maybe gutter stuff like that. | ||
| I'll put a little thing here and there. | ||
| The Daily Beast, a little gutter thing there. | ||
| Daily Beast, by the way, they take money from Qatar. | ||
| Isn't that interesting? | ||
| Interesting how foreign influence is a real problem. | ||
| Mike Cernovich, homophobe. | ||
| Guitar, you go to jail for being gay, but we'll take your money. | ||
| We'll go to the Doha Forum and fly as first class and everything like this. | ||
| But other than the real gutter outlets, it'll be ignored. | ||
| And the gutter outlets might ignore it, too, because they don't want people to see the full, unedited conversation. | ||
| I mean, just candid. | ||
| Like, here's my past. | ||
| Here's what I've said. | ||
| Here's what I've done. | ||
| Don't have any fear confronting it. | ||
| That bothers them, because they want to create carcatures. | ||
| They're not able to create a caricature, so I think like with Hoax Movie, they'll pretend this never happened. | ||
| I'm gonna actually look down while sitting right in front of you to see if we hit on all the big stuff here. | ||
| Yeah, we pretty much did. | ||
| Let the chips fall where they may, I suppose. | ||
| My pleasure. | ||
| You know, it's unfortunate. | ||
| Officer Mike got banned. | ||
| We forgot to talk about him. | ||
| Who? | ||
| He's like an orthodox Jewish Trump supporter. | ||
| Oh, this is the guy that did the... Michael Moore. | ||
| Oh wait, let's do this. | ||
| So this is the guy who did the parody AOC Press Twitter account, which said it was a parody. | ||
| 100% this is allowed to be on Twitter. | ||
| They booted him about a week ago. | ||
| Yep, and that's because he was too effective. | ||
| One of the things he tweeted out Okay, so they ban this guy for parody, even though they say you're allowed to have parody accounts as long as you say it's a parody account. | ||
| AOC because some of the things she said are beyond, it's like Poe's Law. | ||
| You don't even know if it's true or not. | ||
| And because he was funny and effective, banned. | ||
| So they ban this guy for parody even though they say you're allowed to have parody accounts | ||
| as long as you say it's a parody account. | ||
| Now of course they're not banning all the Trump parody accounts and I'm sure there's | ||
| more than two. | ||
| There's Cernovich parody accounts. | ||
| I mean, I'm sure there's... Yeah, they freaking make them every day, and I block them, and then they make more of them. | ||
| Same people over and over. | ||
| Okay, fine. | ||
| Who cares? | ||
| So what happened to this guy? | ||
| They just banned him. | ||
| They claimed... Because then they banned his real account, too, right? | ||
| They banned his real account, and they claimed... What's his name, by the way? | ||
| Mike. | ||
| Officer Mike was his name. | ||
| I think his last name's Morrison, but I'm not really sure. | ||
| But he's a cool guy. | ||
| He's been to all the Trump things. | ||
| And he was just too effective. | ||
| And they tried to claim that he was coordinating with other accounts, but they wouldn't tell you why or how. | ||
| I mean, you want to talk about... | ||
| These guys that we've been talking about, this whole blue check crew, I mean, they coordinate with anonymous accounts. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Can you explain a little bit of that? | ||
| Because I know this is going on. | ||
| I have my ways that I know also. | ||
| And some of these people are real stupid because they keep trying to get me. | ||
| But it's like they're using anonymous accounts that seem like it's nobody to selectively edit the videos. | ||
| Then suddenly all the Daily Beast and Vox and HuffPo reporters and BuzzFeed guys, they then retweet it all. | ||
| And it's like, that's strange. | ||
| You retweet an account with six followers. | ||
| find this right. It's called information laundering. And here's the way information laundering works. | ||
| You have something as a reporter that you couldn't post on your own thing because you know it's | ||
| garbage. So you either yourself, and I think a lot of times it's them, you either yourself or | ||
| through these other bot networks have some them in a throwaway account, put this video up, and then | ||
| you have the level below you start to retweet it. And then you say, oh, there's this video. I'm not | ||
| vouching for the truth or falsity of it. But here's this thing out there that I can talk about now. | ||
| And that's how they launder information. | ||
| That guy, I'm 99% sure, I don't want to get this wrong, but I think it was the CEO or the editor-in-chief, I think, of Daily Beast. | ||
| When they went after me, and one of these, I'm alt-right, whatever it is, they take this quote where I say the alt-right from years ago, when the alt-right was still much more amorphous. | ||
| I say the thing about it being, you know, let's say this about the racist, no good. | ||
| Then I say this thing about the joke makers and the meme makers. | ||
| One, somebody selectively edits it, a random anonymous guy, the editor-in-chief then retweets it, and then I say to him, well, how come you didn't put it in the previous sentence? | ||
| Then he ignores me. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And so that's one way the information launder. | ||
| Another way they do is they do have bots. | ||
| There's been articles. | ||
| This is what I love about being a lefty. | ||
| There's articles, there's people again on Twitter claiming they have revenge porn of me. | ||
| And as long as I'm in good shape, you know, but it's technically a sex crime. | ||
| That's sexual harassment, by the way. | ||
| This is, again, us, you know, me being glib because I live online so much, though. | ||
| Could you imagine if I tweeted out I have a sex tape of Anderson Cooper and I'm gonna post it on Twitter? | ||
| How long would I survive Twitter? | ||
| 30 seconds? | ||
| Five minutes? | ||
| But they, oh yeah, we have a sex tape, we're gonna post it, here's a picture of Cernovich with his genitals blown out, or blurred out, and we're gonna post this, and here's... No problem. | ||
| Not only that, but the Daily Beast, which again, they have taken money from Qatar, They wrote an article saying far right-wing trolls get a dose of their own medicine. | ||
| And the article was, ha ha ha, isn't it funny that this is happening to Cernovich's family? | ||
| Rolling Stone wrote a piece, oh, isn't it funny that Cernovich's wife is getting death threats? | ||
| Because, oh, lol. | ||
| So not only—so either they—so they information launder, or they characterize it in ways that's kind of funny. | ||
| But they're making a mistake because they admit that these people use bots. | ||
| And that's why I'm linking it back to the bot thing. | ||
| Because when they write about it, Splinter wrote an article about two people who harass you and they're the same people who harassed my family. | ||
| There's an article going, oh, they're using bots to troll the alt-right. | ||
| It's like, oh, so in other words, you're admitting that you're using bots. | ||
| And that's how they phrase it. | ||
| And one of the articles is actually how I found that the AOC was actually roommates with one of the people going after my wife and daughter. | ||
| So there's a lot of things in play in that regard. | ||
| But yeah, the media admits the far left winger. | ||
| They call him weird Twitter or whatever. | ||
| They admit the weird left uses bots. | ||
| And that's all being overlooked. | ||
| Now the problem with Twitter, if we're looking at chess pieces, is do they think I don't talk to people in Congress? | ||
| Congressmen talk to me in public, right? | ||
| I mean, you can see it. | ||
| So all of this stuff that the media is using to say, LOL, isn't it funny, | ||
| Cernovich's wife is getting death threats and his daughter is getting death threats. | ||
| Ha ha ha, it's good for him. | ||
| It's like, you think that I haven't not only sent that to every reporter who says that, | ||
| so one day they'll get sued, they'll get gawkered, that'll all turn up in Discovery. | ||
| I've sent that to every legal department of Facebook and i'm building that dossier in congress | ||
| so they have no idea date Basically these social media companies who think they're getting away with these double standards, let's just take a step back and think that if Mike Cernovich, who's very nice to people now, | ||
| He's getting death threats against his wife and child. | ||
| You think that he's not doing something about that behind the scenes? | ||
| Do you think it's weird that this is what your life is? | ||
| This is absurd! | ||
| Yeah, I think about every day how I ruined my life by ever becoming a public figure. | ||
| And I could just write my books and live a good life and nobody knew who I was. | ||
| Before Trump ran, I was in a Parisian cafe just writing, having fun with my wife, walking around looking at Notre Dame before it burned down and everything. | ||
| And every day I think I ruined my life by becoming a public figure. | ||
| Because just the fundamental indecency of it all is not something that I was prepared for. | ||
| I'm prepared for a hit. | ||
| But when it's my family being targeted, and the same people who hit me and follow everything I do can't say something about that, that does make you, in a way, it makes you sad. | ||
| And the problem with making people like me sad is sometimes I hold my daughter, and I think about the people who are trying to hurt her. | ||
| And I think about the people who know what's happening, and they're not saying anything about it. | ||
| And I wish that they would do the right thing. | ||
| I wish the media would do the right thing, and start policing themselves, and quit pretending like it isn't newsworthy, and quit pretending... Here's a great example through New Knowledge. | ||
| The CEO, they talk about disinformation, but he got caught buying Russian bots of people. | ||
| And then he goes to the news, and the news says, oh, according to the CEO of New Knowledge, Russian bots are following Roy Moore. | ||
| But wait, he bought the bots. | ||
| And then Renee, I figure her last name goes on Sam Harris, goes on Joe Rogan. | ||
| Russian bots, conspiracy theorists, far right people. | ||
| It's like, wait a minute. | ||
| What about your CEO, though? | ||
| Buying people bots. | ||
| So, this idea, this disinformation, there's all these people that write about disinformation, and I always email them at their official work office that everybody knows, and I always see CHR and Legal, just so there's a record. | ||
| Because one day they're going to get sued, and then that'll turn up. | ||
| Like, well yeah, why didn't you write about these threats? | ||
| But if you write about disinformation, why don't you write about disinformation on the left? | ||
| How many articles are there about disinformation? | ||
| There's disinformation about you, they don't correct it. | ||
| And this is, again, it's gonna just further radicalize people, further eliminate public trust, and take society in a bad direction. | ||
| All right, so let's just do one more thing to really troll the trolls here. | ||
| So all the people, let's say that some of these blue check guys are gonna write some of this stuff in Buzzfeed and the rest of it. | ||
| Is there anything that you would like to say directly about the alt-right, about white supremacy, about any of that? | ||
| I'll give them a headline about Trump. | ||
| Because this is something I was talking to, um, because what people don't realize is, you know, we always say Orthodox Jews are 90% pro-Trump, right? | ||
| You just, you don't see people with the kippah and, you know, the Hasidic Jewish community. | ||
| So I was, I was taken aside by a very, uh, very kind person. | ||
| And he goes, you know, I wish you'd have said something more about the, this is two years ago. | ||
| It's like, I wish you'd have said something more about the Nazi people and everything. | ||
| And I go, eh, it's not really my job to be the ADL light, you know, plus people have lied about me so I don't even know. | ||
| And he goes, OK, he was very compassionate. | ||
| I wish that I had realized, yeah, there is a problem with anti-Semitism in America. | ||
| There's been shootings now, so that seems like an obvious thing to say. | ||
| And the problem, Trump should come out more strongly against it, but then the media will say Trump admits His supporters are anti-Semites, right? | ||
| So if you're a journalist and you actually give a fuck and you actually want to make the world a better place, you would give room for people like Trump to say, I didn't realize this was a problem. | ||
| It's a fucking problem. | ||
| And if you're about that life, you need to get away from me. | ||
| And if you could just say, okay, Trump, clear stance against anti-Semitism, if that were the story, then the incentive structure would be to create that. | ||
| Are you saying that he hasn't done that or that they won't acknowledge that he's done it? | ||
| He's done it. | ||
| The idea that he's an anti-Semite. | ||
| No, the idea isn't. | ||
| It isn't. | ||
| But I think just a real clear, strong condemnation, along with, if you're about that life, I don't want your votes. | ||
| Don't come to my rallies. | ||
| Just stay away from me. | ||
| And then the media, they're still going to lie. | ||
| They're still going to spin. | ||
| They're still going to talk about dog whistles. | ||
| But that's something I wish I'd have done sooner. | ||
| The Islamophobia, that's why, you know, I've just been very clear about it. | ||
| I remember I was at my own event in D.C. | ||
| And I was like, oh, people are talking about Islam. | ||
| I'm like, hey, you know, whatever. | ||
| It's moderate Islam. | ||
| And people are like, there's no such thing as moderate Islam. | ||
| In my own event, people are, like, yelling at me because there's pro—so I'm like, OK, you know, it's OK. | ||
| I'm not the ADL Light. | ||
| I don't need to be tweeting about Islamophobia every day or antisemitism every day or whatever the issue is every day. | ||
| But I really do think that, as—and this is the left, too. | ||
| Call out the I want to kill white people bullshit, too. | ||
| If you are a public figure and you're a A leader. | ||
| Act like a leader. | ||
| And if you see bad trends developing, hey, it's okay. | ||
| Just be very clear about it. | ||
| Be clear that you're not cool with it, you're not down with that. | ||
| Try to steer the world in a little bit of a better direction, and know that this is going to take a long time. | ||
| All right, man. | ||
| Well, on that note, I hope we cleaned up some of this. | ||
| The chips will fall where they may, and we'll both keep going, I suppose. | ||
| My pleasure. | ||
| Thanks again. | ||
| Yeah, good talking to you. | ||
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