Aug. 10, 2018 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
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unidentified
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(upbeat music) | |
| Joining me today is a sex researcher, a neuroscientist and co-host of the "Wrong Speak" podcast, | ||
| Dr. Deb Rousseau, welcome to "The Rubin Report." | ||
| Hi. | ||
| I am glad to have you here, finally. | ||
| I'm so happy to be here. | ||
| All right, we got a lot to talk about. | ||
| I thought the best way to start this thing, I don't like to look at my notes up front, but you had a line on your Patreon page that I thought summed up the whole damn thing pretty perfectly. | ||
| Your Patreon bio says, creating journalism that defends science and free speech. | ||
| You've come to the right show. | ||
| I think so. | ||
| Should we talk about sex first? | ||
| It all bleeds into one thing. | ||
| You started as a neuroscientist, but you were more attracted to studying sex. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Okay, you started as a neuroscientist, but you were sort of more attracted, | ||
| for lack of a better word, to studying sex. | ||
| Tell me about that. | ||
| Yeah, so I mean, I decided to go back to school and do my PhD in neuroscience, | ||
| and along the way I had the chance to do a placement in sexology. | ||
| So, I'd never heard of sex research before. | ||
| I had no idea what it was, but it was so fascinating to me, and I thought, it's crazy that we have the technology to look at people's brains and look at sexual arousal in the brain, and it tells us so much about what it means to be human. | ||
| So, from there, I was hooked. | ||
| I loved it. | ||
| My PhD was in Using brain imaging to look at paraphilias, which are atypical sexual interests, and hypersexuality in men. | ||
| And I love research, I always will, but I made the decision to leave academia and work full-time as a journalist now because the climate had changed so much, even between when I started my PhD and when I finished. | ||
| Yeah, and that's why the stuff that you're talking about really is at the nexus of everything that I'm doing here, because now you're on the journalist side, but it's because of the hostility that you were facing on the academic side. | ||
| So what is it that you were unearthing or studying that was so triggering to people? | ||
| Well, within sexology, you can't really study anything that isn't triggering. | ||
| I'd say across the board, someone's going to get mad at you, no matter what. | ||
| Even though you're really looking at facts. | ||
| You're looking to find facts. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| And even with brain imaging, I mean, that's definitely... | ||
| a growing field. | ||
| The technology is legitimate. | ||
| But no matter what, I think because sex is still considered very taboo, people will either | ||
| project their own ideas and beliefs and values onto it, or they just don't see the value | ||
| and they think, "Why is the government funding this?" | ||
| I feel really lucky. | ||
| Being in Canada, we do have a pretty amazing scene in terms of sex research. | ||
| And my colleagues do manage to get funding, so I think that's excellent. | ||
| But my decision to leave academia, in the last two years I noticed things were starting to go a bit weird in terms of the climate and in terms of mainstream media I was seeing piece after piece about transgender kids and how young children were socially transitioning, getting on blockers, pubertal blockers. | ||
| And the media is basically saying this is the greatest thing, this is something that we should rejoice about, that these kids are so much better off after. | ||
| But from a scientific perspective, the research actually shows that the majority of kids who are gender dysphoric actually outgrow their feelings. | ||
| They're more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. | ||
| And so it makes sense for them to wait, not for them to socially transition at a young age. | ||
| So, I wanted to write a mainstream piece about this, and there's been a very long-standing history between trans activists and sex researchers—a very ugly history of activists going after sex researchers if they don't like what someone's study says or what they say publicly. | ||
| So, I thought about it for a long time. | ||
| I wrote the piece, and I sat on it probably for about six months, and I wasn't sure if I wanted to put it out. | ||
| I asked a bunch of my colleagues and mentors and they all said, you know what, the science is solid but you know what's going to happen if you do put this out. | ||
| And at the time I wanted to stay in academia and I said, should I wait until I get tenure? | ||
| And everyone told me, even if you have tenure nowadays, it's not going to protect you. | ||
| You can still lose your job. | ||
| So I decided eventually I couldn't stay quiet, and I thought, I'm not going to stay in an environment where I can't speak the truth, and I can't even pursue questions that are meaningful anymore, because I have to worry about who's going to get mad, and then I'm going to lose my money, my funding, and I'm going to lose my job. | ||
| So that piece went out. | ||
| It was called, Why Transgender Kids Should Wait to Transition, and then I haven't looked back since. | ||
| Yeah, so I re-read, I've read the piece before, but I re-read it this morning before we got here. | ||
| And there's a lot here. | ||
| So, how much of this is just blatantly a misunderstanding of science? | ||
| Like, I think there's partly that you have a misunderstanding of science and then you just have activists who just want you to bow to them all the time. | ||
| Are you able to sort of quantify how much of the backlash is each? | ||
| I think, to be charitable, I try to look at the other side and give them, you know, credit and try to, you know, think that they have good intentions. | ||
| Maybe people—I mean, it's pretty consistent. | ||
| All 11 studies ever done on the topic of desistance, so this phenomenon I talked about where kids grow out of their feelings of gender dysphoria, all of them say the same thing. | ||
| So the final statistic is about 60 to 90 percent. | ||
| So, this is the vast majority of kids. | ||
| You can't really question those data. | ||
| So, I think what it could be is people—I mean, trans people have a history of having to deal with medical gatekeeping, of people telling them what they feel isn't real. | ||
| I do think gender dysphoria is a real phenomenon, and I do think we should have empathy for people who are suffering. | ||
| So I think it could be coming from that place of, well, we don't want people saying that this isn't a legitimate thing or that trans people should be forced to not feel the way they do. | ||
| But in terms of, you know, these children, we should be thinking about the best outcome. | ||
| So it doesn't make sense for them to transition if that's not actually going to help them in the long term. | ||
| I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I do think the activists They, on some level, I think they know that they can bully sex researchers because of that history. | ||
| They know that there's only so much an academic can do, and they've won a couple battles, so I think that's part of it as well. | ||
| How shocking was it to you when you were discussing this with colleagues that they were kind of hinting you may want to wait on this thing? | ||
| I mean, did you think that you'd be in that situation? | ||
| And I'm wondering, did any of them sit on some other things because they were afraid too? | ||
| It was eye-opening, yeah. | ||
| But I kind of knew. | ||
| One, I guess, instance I can talk about is one colleague, Michael Bailey, at Northwestern University. | ||
| He wrote a book that upset transgender activists, and they went after him ruthlessly. | ||
| I mean, they really tried to destroy his life, and thankfully, you know, he's still considered foremost experts in sexology internationally. | ||
| But I would say that, you know, I've written about him previously. | ||
| I think he's kind of been the poster boy as to why people are really terrified to say anything that goes against a | ||
| trans narrative. | ||
| Yeah, so I think you've already hinted at this, and I know your work otherwise, but... | ||
| So you have no issue with trans people as people, just to be clear. | ||
| This is purely about the science related to transitioning and hormone blockers and things of that nature of a certain age, where they're doing it as young as, I think you were writing about 14, right? | ||
| Oh, younger than that now? | ||
| Well, yeah. | ||
| I mean, if there's parental consent, definitely. | ||
| And I have to say, for transgender adults, and I'd say even kids who reach puberty and still feel that way, I think transitioning is totally up to you. | ||
| If that's the path you decide to go, then power to you. | ||
| I don't think there's anyone's business to tell you what to do at that point. | ||
| So are there basic parameters related to age then? | ||
| Well, there are in terms of—I don't work with children. | ||
| I don't do clinical work anymore. | ||
| But in terms of the research literature, usually clinicians will wait until puberty and see how the child feels at that time when the body starts changing, when they start having crushes on their peers and that kind of thing. | ||
| And the research does show that when kids start to, you know, have crushes and start dating, and that can play a role in terms of how they feel about their bodies and whether they do outgrow it. | ||
| But just at that point, your whole body is in flux, your mental state's in flux, your physical state's in flux, and as you said, what would, did you say a percentage on that of how many of them turn out to just, they happen to be gay? | ||
| 60 to 90, so yeah. | ||
| So 60 to 90% of the children undergoing these feelings turn out to be gay, and then I assume the ones that don't transition, probably most of them end up being okay with being gay, I would imagine, roughly? | ||
| Yeah, and I would say even, like, I grew up in the gay community, I have a lot of gay male friends, and they've said to me when I was young, I told my parents all the time I hated being a boy and I wanted to be a girl, and I am a girl. | ||
| And why can't I become a girl? | ||
| And now, as a gay man, I'm so comfortable, I'm so happy, and they say to me, you know, I'm kinda glad I'm not growing up in this time, because I think I probably would have transitioned. | ||
| Yeah, well, that's why the external pressure seems so crazy to me, because you just don't know at that age. | ||
| And even if you do know, waiting a little bit isn't gonna, for the science to flesh out, that's not gonna kill you. | ||
| It's just hard talking about this, even, you know? | ||
| Yeah, I mean, the thing is, what people also aren't talking about is that for these kids, in some cases, the parents don't want a gay child. | ||
| And this is what upsets me the most. | ||
| So, if you have a little boy who's very feminine, he's likely going to grow up to be a gay man. | ||
| But if you take that same little boy and allow him to transition to female, when he grows up, he's going to appear to be a straight woman. | ||
| And so these parents are being lauded as progressive, when really they're homophobic. | ||
| God, how perverse that is. | ||
| That's interesting what you just said about a certain amount of gay men that grow up, you know, they wanted to be, or felt more like a girl or whatever, and then eventually grow out of it and are okay, because I never felt that. | ||
| Like, I played sports, and I played video games, and Transformers, all the things that my friends did, and I never felt like I was a girl or more effeminate. | ||
| People always say to me, I don't seem gay, and I'm always like, I don't know what that, you know what I mean? | ||
| I'm married to a guy. | ||
| That's pretty gay. | ||
| But I never had that. | ||
| But that's sort of just interesting about the psychology of gay people in general. | ||
| There are gay people that grow up feeling very effeminate, and there are gay men that grow up not feeling that way, and I'm sure there's women that grow up feeling very Butch or whatever, and there's women that grow up that are, you know, lipstick lesbians and the whole thing. | ||
| Have you done any research on any of that? | ||
| In terms of my research, no, but in terms of what studies have shown, it is about hormone levels in utero. | ||
| So testosterone, if you are exposed to higher levels of testosterone in utero, you're more likely to be male-typical and masculine when you're born. | ||
| So whether you're male or female. | ||
| So most boys are exposed to high levels of testosterone. | ||
| So that explains when they're born why they are interested in male-typical Right. | ||
| and activities. | ||
| So for gay men, they were likely exposed to lower levels of testosterone, | ||
| which is why they're more feminine. | ||
| And the same with girls, if they're exposed to higher levels of testosterone, | ||
| they're more likely to be masculine and lesbian. | ||
| Right, even though there's obvious outliers. | ||
| Oh yeah, this is on average, on average, yeah. | ||
| Is there a danger in talking about that? | ||
| Because I would imagine that the certain amount of people in the gay community that would want you to never go down that road because then you could end up in a place where, oh, we would be able to prevent people from being gay, ultimately, if we can really figure out the science behind all this. | ||
| Definitely. | ||
| And I mean, as a straight woman, I have to say, even I right now feel like maybe I shouldn't be saying these things because I'm not gay. | ||
| I can't speak for the gay community. | ||
| But as a former sex researcher, I'm very much a proponent of I'd rather you speak as a sex researcher than a gay person or a straight person or anything else. | ||
| I mean, this is the problem, though. | ||
| You know what I mean? | ||
| You're an expert in this, and it's like, even for you, who's so brave on all of these issues, it gets weird to talk about it. | ||
| And even for me, it's like a little weird to talk about it. | ||
| Do you feel like a traitor? | ||
| No, I am what I am and that's all that I am, that's it. | ||
| But like, I know that just even talking about this just gets people crazy and I know what our Twitter feeds are gonna look like after this. | ||
| Yeah, you get ready. | ||
| So, I mean, it's crazy because Even my colleagues who have the best intentions, they're doing this research because they just want to understand, why are people the way they are? | ||
| It's not—there are no nefarious intentions there, but people are so quick to jump on. | ||
| I mean, there was—earlier this year, there was a study about using AI to be able to detect whether someone is gay by looking at their face. | ||
| And so, again, studies have shown that, on average, you can see differences between straight and gay people, both men and women, in terms of facial features. | ||
| And so everyone's freaking out about this study. | ||
| And I'm thinking, why aren't we saying this is amazing that we are able to know this? | ||
| And, I mean, I think I have really good gaydar. | ||
| I've always thought I have. | ||
| And now I think, great! | ||
| Like, there's actually some quantitative data to suggest that I'm not just making things up. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And they're also, they always say, well, gay guys have gaydar. | ||
| That there's something else that maybe you can see or whatever it is. | ||
| Or they'll, I don't know if people say it anymore, but people used to say gayface. | ||
| Like, there was just something about the facial features. | ||
| Sometimes of gay men. | ||
| Maybe they were a little softer or whatever it is. | ||
| I don't even know what it is. | ||
| But like people were talking about that in the gay community. | ||
| Then it comes out through some sort of science lens and it's like, we better watch out for that. | ||
| And the thing is then researchers see that and say, well, I don't want to go through that. | ||
| So then they don't want to touch that topic. | ||
| So now there's, they're eventually going to be only like two different things you can probably study unless you know that what your findings, what you're going to find is going to be politically acceptable. | ||
| In which case you shouldn't be doing the research because that means you're not actually doing science. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| What do you think it is about you that makes you brave enough to do this sort of thing? | ||
| Because I've had a couple other people, we're going to talk about James Damore in a little bit because you've also written about him and why the whole thing about diversity and all that, but I've had a bunch of outliers in these communities on the show and I'm always curious what it is about the specific people that make them sort of put it out there and go, I'm going to do it whether you like it or not. | ||
| It's probably my personality. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, I just generally don't really care what people think about me. | ||
| And I'm pretty stubborn. | ||
| And I feel very strongly about sex research being taken seriously. | ||
| And my decision to have gone into that field. | ||
| You deal with a lot of stigma. | ||
| As I mentioned earlier, you deal with it on both sides, you know, and when you make the decision to go into the field, suddenly—when people know what you do, they will judge you on a personal level. | ||
| So I think that was part of it. | ||
| You know, I grew a very thick skin from saying, I'm going to do what I find interesting, and people can assume whatever they want about me. | ||
| And I think that just translated into now what I do as a science journalist. | ||
| But I would say, too—and I'm sure you've probably went through a similar experience—once you speak out, it becomes much easier. | ||
| And I find I can't stay quiet now, and I find the people that are gonna turn their backs on you, let them, because you don't need them in your life. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Once you start, you can't stop, actually. | ||
| If it's built into you, you just can't stop. | ||
| So one of the things I think is really interesting is how there's such a movement always to say that gay people are born this way, right? | ||
| Lady Gaga even wrote a song about it. | ||
| Born this way. | ||
| Power to Gaga. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And yet at the same time, if I know for a fact, like I have a friend who for many years was my lesbian friend, my one good lesbian friend. | ||
| And she was, you know, dating girls all the time and all that. | ||
| Then about three years ago, we were sitting there and she told me that she met a guy. | ||
| And now she's been with this guy for about three or four years, and they're getting married. | ||
| And she identifies basically as bisexual now, but she's exclusively been with a guy for about four years. | ||
| But what I find interesting about it is that her lesbian friends have basically all turned on her. | ||
| And these are supposed to be the people of tolerance and we should accept your sexuality and all that, but when it goes the other way, suddenly it becomes this other thing. | ||
| Have you seen that before? | ||
| I suspect you have. | ||
| I can imagine that. | ||
| I'm guessing they probably think that she's sold out or something. | ||
| They think she's a sellout or something, yeah. | ||
| You're taking the easy road or something like that. | ||
| Like every insane cliche. | ||
| And I know her to be completely authentic and real. | ||
| How has she dealt with it, I'm curious? | ||
| Well, it's woken her up in a zillion other ways. | ||
| So for a lot of the other things that we talk about, about free speech and politics and freedom and all that, she's started to wake up to all of that. | ||
| She was a huge lefty progressive and now she's basically a libertarian because she saw that authoritarian thing. | ||
| Why do you guys wanna control me? | ||
| The second I think differently, you guys wanna control me. | ||
| So now she's like the wokest of all of my friends, so to speak. | ||
| That's the thing. | ||
| I think all of us are eventually going to have a moment like that where you realize what you thought was the truth is not the truth. | ||
| And there's so many other things. | ||
| It's like falling down that rabbit hole and you start to question everything then. | ||
| And it's really liberating. | ||
| But, you know, in terms of sexuality, I mean, that's very common. | ||
| Female sexuality is much more fluid than men's. | ||
| So men tend to be very category specific. | ||
| If you're into women, you really like women, you're not into guys. | ||
| If you're into guys, you really like guys, you're not into women. | ||
| And then women tend to be a little bit more flexible. | ||
| It's like you find, you know, there are supposedly straight married men that on the DL are sleeping with other guys, but I'm pretty sure there aren't many gay men that are in relationships or married that are sneaking out and sleeping with women. | ||
| No. | ||
| On the DL. | ||
| No. | ||
| Have you ever seen one of those in your research? | ||
| I mean, there's gotta be, right? | ||
| Of course. | ||
| There's gotta be some. | ||
| You know, I think the first case, I think, is probably closet gays. | ||
| And then the second case, I have to think about that. | ||
| Right, but if you were a closeted gay, well, I guess you might be sleeping, yeah, I mean, I did it. | ||
| Like, I slept with women as sort of like a, "an overcompensation," or, "I was trying." | ||
| It's not even overcompensation, I was really trying. | ||
| I just thought I should try. | ||
| Try it, yeah. - And I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, | ||
| and eventually I tried no more. | ||
| Yeah, I think also for gay men, when you come out, it's such a big thing. | ||
| And I think to make that decision to come out is really committing to this, | ||
| as much as we don't like identity labels, it is an identity label. | ||
| So I would see it as being less common for someone who's gay to be sleeping with women on the side, because he would have likely just stayed in that camp. | ||
| That would be my guess. | ||
| Okay, so you mentioned that you study a lot of this related to the brain, and how a lot of this is sort of built into us, and you study this across Is fetish the right word? | ||
| Paraphilias, yeah. | ||
| Fetish is a specific paraphilia, but across the board, basically kinky people. | ||
| So wait, what's the definition of paraphilia then? | ||
| Unusual sexual interests. | ||
| And how's that different than fetish? | ||
| Well, a fetish is a specific object or body part that you have a preference for. | ||
| Got it. | ||
| So let's talk about a couple of those. | ||
|
unidentified
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Okay. | |
| There are a lot of them. | ||
| So I tell people this and no one ever believes me, but I'm actually very, very traditional, vanilla, not kinky, but I love it. | ||
| I was going to ask you all that at the end about yourself personally, but okay. | ||
| Yeah, but I mean, I find it super fascinating, and I guess it's my way of living vicariously, you know. | ||
| So, in terms of different paraphilias, I mean, there's voyeurism, you know, known as peeping toms, exhibitionism, so people who like to expose themselves, sadism and masochism, which are different from BDSM. | ||
| So BDSM is consensual masochism and sadism, so masochism being wanting to be humiliated, Sadism is one, just your partner being humiliated. | ||
| BDSM is very much about consent, so it's not true masochism or sadism because partners will negotiate beforehand and not do anything outside of particular boundaries and that kind of thing. | ||
| What else is there? | ||
| Frauderism, so it's when people like to rub up against unsuspecting people. | ||
| There are tons. | ||
| I could go on forever. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And so how are these all connected to the same parts of the brain? | ||
| Is it the same mechanism that's working and the fetish itself is just manifested in a different way? | ||
| Different targets, yeah. | ||
| So with my research, when I was still a researcher, I found that for men who are kinky, when they look at kinky pornography, the same brain network activates as when non-kinky people are looking at regular or vanilla pornography. | ||
| So it suggests that Paraphilia is maybe akin to a sexual orientation, so that's not to say that's the same as being gay, but it's the same idea conceptually that it's someone's preference, it can't be changed, and it's with them from very early on. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| How does the internet play into all this? | ||
| Because I know you've written about porn addiction and things like that, where now all of this stuff is so accessible, where obviously even Fifteen, twenty years ago, it was a lot harder to get. | ||
| You had to go looking for it, yeah. | ||
| I think people are probably able to test out different things and go searching for things out of curiosity, but if you really like something, I don't think it's because you happened to find it on the internet. | ||
| And with porn addiction in particular, there's no research to suggest that's a real thing, that excessive porn viewing is akin to an addiction. | ||
| Usually, if you talk to someone with problems with porn, Across the board, there's always some other reason why. | ||
| Either they're anxious, they like to procrastinate. | ||
| Well, they don't like to procrastinate, but they use it as a way of procrastinating and avoiding other things. | ||
| It's not that they're actually addicted to pornography. | ||
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unidentified
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Right. | |
| So when you hear, though, that people will say, well, you're getting that dopamine hit, isn't that partly what being addicted, wouldn't you become addicted to that? | ||
| Well, that's true, but dopamine is released during a number of different things. | ||
| If you eat a nice piece of food that you like, dopamine is released. | ||
| If you see a nice picture, dopamine is released. | ||
| I mean, it's a reward, but it's responsible for a lot of different things. | ||
| So I think that's one case of, I mean, I do have some issue with science journalists Watering things down and liking to take one finding or one study and kind of, you know, representing it or misrepresenting it. | ||
| So, it's not really an accurate take on it. | ||
| But I understand why people think that, because dopamine has been seen as the addiction neurotransmitter. | ||
| And you see so much about porn addiction, sex addiction, I'd say probably a year ago. | ||
| It was everywhere. | ||
| Everyone was talking about porn addiction and sex addiction, even though, again, there's no legitimate research to suggest either of those things are real. | ||
| Hmm. | ||
| So when you've studied all of these things, what are you finding out about the brain as a neuroscientist? | ||
| And can anything be done for any of these things if somebody was partaking in these things and either didn't want to or at least wanted to understand it or whatever else? | ||
| The biggest thing I would say is find a partner who accepts you for who you are. | ||
| Because whatever you're into, especially for men, it's not going to change. | ||
| And so the difference between someone who has a parent... So meaning women's kinks or whatever will change with time, where a man would be less inclined to? | ||
| Yeah, the same with—you know, in the same way with sexual orientation, women tend to be more flexible with their sexual preferences. | ||
| So if they're kinky, they might be really kinky with one partner. | ||
| Or if they have a partner who's very kinky, they might be into whatever he's into, if it's a straight couple. | ||
| But then if she's with someone who's less kinky, it might not be as much of a problem. | ||
| Whereas if it's a man who's really into something, if his partner's not into it, he's always going to be into it. | ||
| He's just going to have to hide it. | ||
| Yeah, have you heard of this phrase, lesbian bed death? | ||
| I'm all over the place right now. | ||
| I'm just going into the vault here and seeing what I can come up with. | ||
| But have you heard this phrase before? | ||
| It means that there's no sex after a certain amount of time, is that right? | ||
| Yeah, that lesbians, it sort of burns very hot for that early period and then the U-Haul shows up as a joke and then just like the desire for sex just disappears. | ||
| Just lots of cuddling. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah, I have heard of that. | ||
| Well, men on average do tend to have a higher sex drive, so I could see if you're in a relationship where it's two women, how their sex drive might be a bit lower. | ||
| Not sure what else I can tell you. | ||
| But not anything else I know. | ||
| What are you really thinking about right now? | ||
| In general, what are the topics that are really on your mind related to all this? | ||
| My concern, number one, is probably seeing how gender is being warped. | ||
| to facilitate particular political agendas. | ||
| As you mentioned, James Damore and seeing how that whole thing unfolded last summer. | ||
| Okay, so let's talk about that. | ||
| Because you wrote a piece on it. | ||
| I remember the piece coming out. | ||
| I did, yeah. | ||
| So I remember when that news first broke that this sexist memo was going around and I read it and I thought, okay, this is not sexist. | ||
| And then I saw the statement from Google that he was perpetuating gender stereotypes. | ||
| And I thought, oh, no. | ||
| And so I wrote that column for The Globe and Mail to speak to the science and say, you know what? | ||
| The science that James cited was absolutely 100 percent legitimate, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with saying that. | ||
| And if you actually read his memo, you'll see that he's not a misogynist. | ||
| And we actually—so the podcast that I co-host with Jonathan Kaye called Wrong Speak, we actually interviewed him for our first episode. | ||
| And if you listen to him speak, you can see. | ||
| I mean, he's very much for equality between the sexes. | ||
| He says that if men and women don't talk to each other, that's going to harm both of us. | ||
| But it was much easier for them to paint him as a misogynist and as an alt-right figure, because I guess, you know, there's nothing else going on in the news. | ||
| Did you feel that the article, or at least when James was able to get out there and say what he thought, whether he did it here or on Rogan or a series of other podcasts, did you feel that that was able to break through to some of the people that it needed to break through to? | ||
| Like, I know it gets to the masses, right? | ||
| It gets to the people who appreciate maybe what happens in here or on Rogan or things like that. | ||
| But for any of the people that really need to hear it, the ones that are at Google or No, I think it's gotten worse, if anything, honestly, which is terrible. | ||
| and at schools and all that. | ||
| Is there any sign that any of this pushback against it has taken root? | ||
| No, I think it's gotten worse, if anything, honestly, which is terrible. | ||
| I think they are so set in that mindset that you really can't, you can't say anything. | ||
| I think reasonable people, if you talk to them—I was surprised, actually, at that time, because a lot of people that I knew that were really intelligent, really rational, had bought into this narrative that he was a sexist person who said that women are biologically inferior and are not capable of Engineering or working in tech. | ||
| And I said, well, how did you think that? | ||
| Did you read the memo? | ||
| And most people had not. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Of course not. | |
| But then because left-wing media was so adamant about this message, people just assume, well, they're not going to lie. | ||
| Why would they lie? | ||
| And, you know, we are in this industry. | ||
| So, of course, we know. | ||
| But I think most people just take it face value. | ||
| They're busy. | ||
| They have their jobs. | ||
| And so they see a headline or they see an interview. | ||
| They just think, well, like a mainstream interview, they think, well, They wouldn't be saying these things if there wasn't some truth to them. | ||
| But no, they're blatantly lying. | ||
| They're blatantly lying. | ||
| Has all of this, and being part of this, and being very public about your opinions, has this changed your politics at all? | ||
| I find that it consistently has changed people's politics. | ||
| Usually it shifts people to more of what I would say is a classical liberal position, but a libertarian, just more of a less government position, because that's where I think At the moment, the most freedom lays. | ||
| Yeah, I would agree with that, and especially the idea of the government. | ||
| I used to be definitely more left, much, much more left. | ||
| I would still call myself a liberal, but definitely now that I see, because I used to think, well, it's good for the government to come in and help people and to kind of set the tone, but now I'm seeing things that are not hate speech are being considered hate speech. | ||
| Genuine facts—we're not allowed to say them anymore. | ||
| So I'm much more skeptical now of government intervention, of policies dictating what people can and cannot do or say. | ||
| So I would say I have moved more to the right. | ||
| But I would still call myself a liberal. | ||
| I mean, the fact that I write about sex research for a living is— Pretty left. | ||
| Yeah, you're my kind of liberal, so you're good to go in here. | ||
| So one of the things that I think is fascinating about all of what we're talking about here is that it's not just about gender and sex and sexuality, but this is also leaking into all sorts of other things, talking about ethnicity and color of skin and all of that. | ||
| You've written a bit about this. | ||
| I have, yeah, I wrote about how university applications, and particularly Harvard, has been discriminating against Asians for decades, to the point where Asians, when they apply to university, will want to hide their ethnicity in hopes that that's going to give them a fair chance of actually getting into the school. | ||
| Yeah, so alright, so somebody that's watching this right now that doesn't know about this, they're going to go, wait a minute, why would Harvard discriminate against Asian people? | ||
| Because apparently there are too many Asians there. | ||
| If it's based solely on SAT scores and meritocracy, there's a very high proportion of Asian students, and so in the name of quote-unquote diversity and inclusion, Asian students get penalized. | ||
| So this, to me, is the most blatant example of why this diversity stuff is complete nonsense. | ||
| Because people, on face value, it seems nice. | ||
| We want to help people. | ||
| We want to help groups that maybe have struggled more, or for whatever reason. | ||
| And I think we should. | ||
| And there's probably many good ways to do that. | ||
| Maybe investing in more education, or whatever else. | ||
| I'm happy to hear your thoughts on that. | ||
| But what they take as a good thought, then they don't think all the way through, which means, okay, now we're gonna have to punish people who have worked very hard and done everything right. | ||
| And by and large, the Asian community, whether it's Chinese or Japanese or Korean or whatever else, have worked really hard and put a focus on education and family. | ||
| And then what is the result of that? | ||
| It's now harder, if not almost impossible at some level, to get into Harvard. | ||
| And the craziest thing, I don't understand why people think this is acceptable. | ||
| And even when I wrote that column, I had a number of Asians reach out to me and say, you know, don't, don't be used as a token for the far right, and I'm totally okay with this, this is fair, and I'm thinking, you know, what are you on? | ||
| Wasn't, didn't the Times do an op-ed, I think by an Asian woman, if I'm not mistaken? | ||
| Yeah, saying that this is okay, and I just, I don't know. | ||
| I think it's indoctrination at some level. | ||
| I think especially for the kids who are applying to these schools and who are okay with having to score much higher on the SAT in order to get a fair chance. | ||
| I think they've just been told, you know, this is how it has to be. | ||
| But this idea that it should be an equality of outcome as opposed to opportunity is silly. | ||
| And it doesn't actually deal with actual differences in terms of, you know, in terms of the difference that we see and the reasons why there are these differences. | ||
| They're not actually being addressed. | ||
| Please tell me that you got some nice support from members of the Asian community. | ||
| That it wasn't just sort of brainwashed lefties that were... | ||
| I did. | ||
| No, I didn't. | ||
| I got it across the board of, you know, many races. | ||
| So I was grateful for that, because I wasn't sure how people were going to respond to that piece, but I felt very strongly that I had to say something. | ||
| Has Harvard issued a response to any of this, or do we even know where they're at with all this? | ||
| No, as far as I know, the lawsuit is still ongoing. | ||
| Yeah, it's just, it really is just crazy. | ||
| So are you with me on this? | ||
| I sense that there's some massive minority groups that are breaking right now. | ||
| I think the Asian community because of the, I hate saying community, but you know, you have to use some words to describe some of this. | ||
| But I think the black community is breaking. | ||
| This is what a lot of what Candace Owens is talking about. | ||
| I sense this happening in the gay community. | ||
| I sense this happening in the Jewish community very similarly because of the Asian community because of Hard work and education and all that, and so then we decide we have to put you at the bottom of the oppression Olympics. | ||
| So there's an interesting, like, strange alliance now building up. | ||
| Are you seeing that? | ||
| I would say, yeah, I see it coming. | ||
| I see, well, we were talking a bit about this earlier about how the left is going to eat its own until there is only one person left, so it's only a matter of time, really. | ||
| We're all going to find each other and say, yeah, we've had enough of this. | ||
| I mean, gay men, you guys don't count, doesn't count to be gay anymore, so. | ||
| And I never wanted extra credit. | ||
| I wanted equality. | ||
| Equality. | ||
| I wanted equal credit, not extra credit. | ||
| So in a weird way, I'm actually okay being thrown out in that regard of this pyramid because I don't wanna play that game. | ||
| But I think actually finally some gay men, especially gay white men, because now they're fully thought of as the enemy. | ||
| I mean, I've even seen things on college campuses where LGBT organizations are saying, well, you can't be a gay white man and be the president of the organization because you're one of the bad guys. | ||
| I mean, that's really dangerous thinking. | ||
| Well, I saw what you had to deal with, too, with that professor who said that the LGBT community doesn't want you at the, was it the University of New Hampshire? | ||
| University of New Hampshire. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Do you know that, so I didn't know at the time, so I think, much of my audience will know what you're referring to, but I spoke at University of New Hampshire and there were all these hecklers there, and there was a trans woman who I did not know was a professor. | ||
| I didn't know that until literally two months later, who was screaming at me how much I hate trans people and all this, and I kept saying, I want you to have equality under the law, and I want you to be treated with decency and respect, and I hope you find someone that loves you, and all of the things I would want for anyone else. | ||
| I just don't want the government using, dictating what pronouns I can use to refer to you. | ||
| And basically, she was calling me alt-right and all that. | ||
| And of course, it turns out she's a gender studies professor. | ||
| Yeah, it should never be a surprise anymore. | ||
| But there's gonna be no discipline at the school or anything like that. | ||
| I mean, I could probably make more of a hay of it and see what happens, but it's like, Yeah, you handled it amazingly well. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thanks. | |
| I mean, it's only a matter of time. | ||
| I see with feminism, they're turning on white women now, too. | ||
| So, it's insane. | ||
| Is that the only logical outcome of these disciplines? | ||
| Because they are not held to the scientific standard of everything else that we discussed here in the first half? | ||
| That you are held to as a scientist? | ||
| Yeah, I think because everything is, there's so much based in subjective feeling and validating people's experiences, you apparently can't question someone's experience. | ||
| So if someone's offended or they don't like you, What can you say?" | ||
| So, I could see that. | ||
| And it's very much rewarding people for being emotionally driven instead of—I think the best way to have a debate is to remove emotion and just try to look at the facts as objectively as you can, no matter what the issue is. | ||
| So, it's that. | ||
| It's that they don't really have any sort of method to how they do even their research. | ||
| I mean, it's kind of a joke. | ||
| Yeah, but aren't we kind of hearing that even the methods now are part of the patriarchy and all of those things. | ||
| Objectivity. | ||
| You're using facts. | ||
| They don't want facts to actually count because they believe in this postmodern drivel that facts have been arrived to by mechanisms that they don't believe in. | ||
| That's a tough thing to trick somebody out of. | ||
| Yeah, but you know, I think on some level, I think some of these scholars know that what they're doing is very lucrative, and so they're just basically trying to shut people down in any way they can. | ||
| They can't really justify it, but, you know, they just keep screaming about it, and academics who have better things to do, like actually do real research, and they've got their courses and their students and a million other things | ||
| and their 80-hour work weeks, they don't have time to deal with this. | ||
| So this is why there's such a lopsided discourse in terms of what you see coming out of the | ||
| universities. | ||
| And there are some institutions that, you know, they won't allow academics to engage | ||
| with the media without permission first. | ||
| So that's part of it, too. | ||
| It's just it's really an unfair battle right now that's being fought. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| How do you think we get to a place where, specifically related to sexuality and topics related to gender and sex, where we will be able to talk about it in a better way? | ||
| So, for example, the Me Too movement, where everybody, every, I think, basically thinking person understands that there were some really bad people here that did some really bad stuff. | ||
| obviously Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby and some people that really, that drug people | ||
| and had years of history of doing all this. | ||
| And then there's all sorts of other people who seem like they're just getting swept up in it | ||
| or baselessly accused or all that. | ||
| Now, you can be for the idea of the Me Too movement without being for taking down all of these other people | ||
| or also, and I guess what the real issue is, is litigating everyone's history, | ||
| where we could all look back and go, I did this, someone did that to me, this, that, | ||
| College kids now have an assigned things before they hook up. | ||
| I mean, really where we're creating this situation where our interpersonal relations are gonna have almost nothing to do with the stuff that's hardwired into us, the stuff that you study. | ||
| Mm-hmm. | ||
| I think Me Too probably started as something honorable, and I do agree that women and men have been dealing with harassment for far too long, and that it doesn't get taken seriously sometimes. | ||
| But it's to the point now where relations are so strained, especially between men and women, I sense men are terrified, and that's not going to be helpful across the board for anybody. | ||
| I think especially when you look at Shades of Grey, well, I mean, there's so much I could say on this. | ||
| Yeah, let's go! | ||
| The best place to start would be With consent, say, I think one message that's been missing | ||
| is women—I've written about this—women need to advocate for themselves. | ||
| And that's not to say if you experience harassment or if you were assaulted that you | ||
| are at fault. | ||
| I'm not advocating victim-blaming. | ||
| But I think what's missing from this narrative, women are portrayed as though they're helpless, | ||
| and if something happens to them, they're helpless, and that they're basically—they | ||
| no say in terms of how men. | ||
| And, you know, I've written about sexism in the sciences and how women are basically | ||
| being scared off, I think, of going into the field. | ||
| As someone with a Ph.D. in a science field, yeah, you deal with sexism, and it's unpleasant, | ||
| but I still got my degree, and now I'm speaking out about it. | ||
| So if you want to achieve something, you can. | ||
| Sexism is not so terrible in the world that women can't achieve what they want. | ||
| So, going back to consent, you know, I think women need, young women especially, need to be told, you know, you have a say in this. | ||
| If you don't like something or if you don't want to do something, say so. | ||
| Don't feel like it's on the man to I don't know, read your mind. | ||
| And I feel like I'm going to get in so much trouble for saying this, but I think that empowers women instead of telling them, you know, just really hope that this doesn't happen to you. | ||
| And if it does, then get on Twitter and use the hashtag and talk about how men are terrible and men are trash. | ||
| Men are not terrible. | ||
| There are lovely men in the world. | ||
| I love men. | ||
| You know, there are some bad men, but you can't generalize to all men. | ||
| Yeah, but we love the generalization thing, right? | ||
|
unidentified
|
It's easier. | |
| I mean, you even see this, the amount of articles where I see, you know, we have to take down white, it's always white men that we have to take down, or now it's women's turn to rule the world, or all of these things, and it's like, well, a woman could be president, or a woman could be, you know, anything that a man could be, but it shouldn't be because she's a woman, it should be because she's... | ||
|
unidentified
|
We're qualified. | |
| We're capable. | ||
| But we've seen this sort of hysterical reaction to it, and I think that that now is just another one of these places where we're on this crazy pendulum just bouncing back and forth. | ||
| Yeah, I'm hoping it's going to come back to the middle, and hopefully not too much damage will be done before that happens, and that the, you know, relations between men and women aren't going to be so terribly strained. | ||
| I do think we're reaching that point, though, because there are only so many men left who haven't been accused of a Me Too moment, so, you know, it's only a matter of time. | ||
| You know, it's interesting. | ||
| I have a running joke with some of my friends that I know a lot of great, straight girls in LA that are single. | ||
| A lot of straight, great girls. | ||
| I don't know a lot of straight guys that I think are great. | ||
| I know some straight guys that are kind of whatever, but I don't know a lot of straight guys that kind of have their shit together. | ||
| So I have all these girls that are like, oh, can't you set me up with a guy? | ||
| And I'm like, Not the guys I know, which does show that there's sort of a crisis, I think, in masculinity or something. | ||
| And obviously Jordan Peterson is addressing this at some level, although now I've spent so much time with him, I think he's addressing it in a certain way, almost equally for men and women, although people only focus on the male part. | ||
| But do you know, is anyone doing research on sort of what is happening to young men in particular right now? | ||
| That's a good question. | ||
| I know that levels of testosterone are lower on average more recently, so I don't know if that has something to do with it. | ||
| Do we know what the reasoning for that is? | ||
| Could be. | ||
| Maybe there's more estrogens that we're putting into our bodies. | ||
| I'm trying to think of what I can give you because that's an interesting... So how old are your friends? | ||
| I'm curious. | ||
| This sort of set of friends that I'm talking about, these girls, usually are in their early 30s. | ||
| And they're single, which often cases, a lot of them, their friends are married already, and they're on the hunt, and they've got good jobs, and they look good, and they take care of themselves, and all of those things. | ||
| And I just don't see the equivalent here. | ||
| I don't know, maybe there's an odd subset of, because L.A. | ||
| is a little bit of an odd place, maybe there's more gay people here, I don't know exactly. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, I could see the average age for people getting married is 28, so I don't want to generalize and say that across the board. | ||
| I know you want to use science, in fact. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It's incredible. | |
| I want to be fair. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah, but I mean, it could be that for guys who are a certain age, there's a reason. | ||
| But the same thing for women of a certain age, and not to say they're your friends, of course, but, you know, if you're focused on your career, maybe you're not used to Yeah. | ||
| Do you think that the feminist movement, which I know is sort of... | ||
| Ancillary been talking about it this whole time, that they really did give up something very special by putting so much focus on work and success in that way. | ||
| I mean, you know, I think back to my childhood now, which I think in retrospect was so amazing. | ||
| My mom was home for most of it. | ||
| She worked before, I'm the oldest of three, she worked before I was there and then she didn't work all the years that she was raising us and then went back to work after. | ||
| And that having someone at home that was Cooking and taking care of us and making sure we got to school and all those things Like that's like the greatest thing that anyone could do it happens to more often be the woman But that's a that's a pretty great thing. | ||
| That's often been sacrificed now. | ||
| We're thought of it's it's mocked in a way now Yeah, I mean I've always been Atypical in terms of I've always been felt more masculine. | ||
| I've always been very focused on my career but I definitely think that feminism And for some people, or some proponents of feminism, they | ||
| will denigrate female typical roles in motherhood and wanting to be at home with your | ||
| family. | ||
| And I think—you know, I've heard from women who say, you know, "I've been told that | ||
| the path to happiness is for me to focus on my career and to neglect my personal life | ||
| And then they reach a point where they realize, no, I do want those things. | ||
| And I don't think there should be anything wrong with that. | ||
| And the same thing, you know, I've written about how there's such an emphasis for girls to be like boys now. | ||
| I saw you tweet about thebies. | ||
| Yeah, thebies. | ||
| And underlying that is a sexism that, you know, says that girls need to be like boys in order to be equal or worthy of respect. | ||
| And no one's talking about that. | ||
| People are just saying, yeah, for sure, let's just tell girls that they have to be the same as boys, and women have to be the same as men. | ||
| Yeah, so the article you're referring to, there was this piece, I think it was in Newsweek, that these parents are raising their twins as Fabies, T-H-E-Y, babies, Fabies, and they're gonna let them pick their gender. | ||
| And it's like, You're going to create more psychological problems than you were trying to hide them from, most likely. | ||
| I think. | ||
| Yeah, and it goes back to biology again and hormonal exposure in utero. | ||
| I think it's great. | ||
| It might have been NBC News, I think, not Newsweek. | ||
| Yeah, but I think there were a couple outlets that were so excited about this. | ||
| Well, that's why I wrote about it, not because of the thing. | ||
| You know, these parents can do whatever they want. | ||
| That's what I followed up with immediately after. | ||
| Parents can do whatever they want, and then when the children are of age, they can either decide my parents were crazy or not. | ||
| Yeah, right, disown the parents, right, and all that. | ||
| But that wasn't the issue for me. | ||
| It was that the way these headlines are always written, it was like this is the new thing. | ||
| And the implicit piece of that is you better do this to be a good parent, to be a tolerant parent, to be a progressive parent. | ||
| An open-minded person. | ||
| An open-minded person. | ||
| And that, to me, is the danger here. | ||
| Not the little isolated case, necessarily, of these people that are doing something that's an outlier thing. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And the thing is, I've heard stories now where people are terrified of giving their daughters dolls, and what's really funny is you have some of these really progressive parents who raise their girls, they only have gender-neutral toys, or they give them boys toys, and then the girl obviously goes to school and sees girl-typical toys, and wants to play with them, and the parents are horrified, and they think, oh, this is the patriarchy coming in. | ||
| The return of the patriarchy. | ||
| It's just biology, and we shouldn't be afraid of that, and we shouldn't shame girls for wanting to be female-typical. | ||
| Yeah, but this is why when people say, I think, to a bunch of us that are in this space, this, oh, you guys are overstating what this thing is. | ||
| It's just a bunch of angry activists or whatever. | ||
| It's like, we've seen it infect academia, which you addressed already. | ||
| We've seen it infect the home and how you're supposed to raise your kids. | ||
| Even just thinking about this now, it's like, I think, I read something on this, and if not, there's definite proof of it, that Disney made a decision along the way, now that they have Star Wars and Marvel, that Star Wars was gonna be more marketed to girls, and Marvel was gonna be the boys thing. | ||
| Now I'm a big Star Wars guy, and I would see these commercials, and it was all girls in the ships, and girls with the lightsabers, I have no problem with that, obviously. | ||
| Rey, the leading character in the last one, is a girl, it's all good, the girls can do whatever they want, But pushing marketing on them seems odd to me. | ||
| And although I'm sure there are many girls out there that want to be Jedi, there's obviously more boys. | ||
| So the way that we even market, and I suspect they're marketing in a way that's hurting their bottom line, in the name of tolerance? | ||
| In the name of what? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Yeah, so I mean, how do the boys feel about that? | ||
| Right, so you're gonna get this odd thing then when eventually, after enough marketing, boys are gonna wanna play with the girl thing and then feel weird about it. | ||
| God, that's messed up. | ||
| Too much time. | ||
| These people have too much time on their hands, yeah. | ||
| I just say let kids do what they want and acknowledge that as long as you give them free choices, you probably won't have too much say at the end of the day, but at least they'll be happy. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Is there anything else that you're researching at the moment or that's been on your mind that we haven't covered? | ||
| The only thing I would say is, with Wrong Speak, we just launched our first season last month, so we spoke with James Damore and Lindsay Shepard. | ||
| We also did an episode on rapid onset gender dysphoria, so it's this phenomenon of adolescent girls who are suddenly seeing their transgender, even though they've had no previous signs of gender dysphoria, and actually their problems have nothing to do with gender. | ||
| So what are the problems? | ||
| That's just societal stuff, or pressure, or wanting attention? | ||
| All of the above. | ||
| Usually autism as well. | ||
| So they either will be diagnosed by a mental health professional, but the person will say, I can't say that I have to, you know, affirm your child's gender, because they can otherwise get into a lot of trouble and lose their jobs if they don't. | ||
| Wait, wait. | ||
| Can you repeat that? | ||
| I gotta get that one right. | ||
| So that they will lose their jobs if they don't? | ||
| No, no, but they have to affirm their... They can't affirm it. | ||
| Oh, they have to. | ||
| Clinicians nowadays have to affirm these kids. | ||
| If a child says they're transgender, you have to. | ||
| They'll lose their jobs otherwise. | ||
| So technically a therapist or a clinician could feel that this is some other issue going on or something, but they have to actually affirm what the child says to the parents and in all the documents because they will lose their job. | ||
| They're terrified. | ||
| And so, in Toronto, what happened—what the Preston case was, my colleague Kenneth Zucker, he had a clinic where he saw gender dysphoric children, and people said that he was practicing conversion therapy. | ||
| He was not. | ||
| So, conversion therapy, I do not stand for, it's trying to turn gay children straight, but | ||
| sexual orientation is not the same thing as gender. So gender in young | ||
| children is flexible and it becomes more stable with age. So when patients would | ||
| come to him and say, you know, I want to be the opposite sex, he would say, | ||
| okay, what's the underlying... - Wait, let me just pause your section. When | ||
| you say gender is flexible, you don't mean the amount of genders, you mean the feelings that you have | ||
| related to genders. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I just want to be clear. | |
| Yeah, no, there are two genders. | ||
| Okay, okay. | ||
| Let's be clear, yeah. | ||
| Binary, very binary, not as much. | ||
| People will jump on that, okay. | ||
| So if you have, the example I've been using, if you have a little boy who says he's a girl, he will likely be a gay man, and he will likely grow to be comfortable in his male gender identity. | ||
| So for 99% of us, our biological sex is our gender. | ||
| Man, this thing, it's a real monster. | ||
| Yeah, there's a lot of misinformation out there. | ||
| So anyway, what I was saying with my colleague, his clinic got shut down. | ||
| He wasn't doing anything unethical. | ||
| But because of that, it's set this chill across the field now. | ||
| Clinicians do not want to have the same thing happen to them, because activists will go after them. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So there's no one really practicing, or anyone sort of thought of as legitimate that's practicing conversion therapy anymore, is there? | ||
| I hope not. | ||
| And all the science is against it, like that it just never worked? | ||
| Like it was just something that, I guess, a sort of twisted ideologue was practicing | ||
| not using real evidence or science and eventually it just fizzled out, basically. | ||
| Yeah, I do think there are some practitioners who are still doing it. | ||
| I wouldn't call them legitimate, which it makes me very uncomfortable when I see that. | ||
| But yeah, definitely sexual orientation is biological, it's genetic, and it can't be changed. | ||
| So conversion therapy is completely useless. | ||
| Yeah, well, I'm glad we got there at least. | ||
| I think most people won't be angry at you on that one. | ||
| Well, I guess maybe some people on the right might be angry on that one. | ||
| Maybe, but I'm all about presenting the data and speaking to facts and the science and standing up for sex research, whether it infuriates people on the left or the right. | ||
| Yeah, science, facts, reason, pretty much all, but all sort of packaged within the free speech thing. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Can I call you a member of the Intellectual Dark Web? | ||
| Please do. | ||
| I don't know that I have that power, but I'm going to go to the clubhouse later. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| And get me a membership? | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| You know, we have to vote on it. | ||
| It's a weird thing. | ||
| I can be a white man some days. | ||
| Oh, right. | ||
| That was the thing. | ||
| It was like, you know, whatever, all these idiots that are writing all these nonsensical pieces about it. | ||
| It's all white men. | ||
| And it's like, There are a bunch of us that are not white, but I mean, I've been called a white supremacist, I've been called a Nazi, so that's the level that we're at right now, and they have nothing else, so I think it's a good sign. | ||
| In a weird way, it absolutely is a good sign. | ||
| Well, it's been a pleasure. | ||
| I'm so glad that we finally got to do this. | ||
| It's been so much fun. | ||
| Yeah, we will do, I sense these issues are not going away, so we're gonna have to do this again. | ||
| All right, very good. | ||
| Let's do it. |
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