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Oct. 27, 2017 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin

01:10:30

Political Correctness, Sports, and Boobs | Clay Travis | MEDIA | Rubin Report

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52:27

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		(dramatic music)
unidentified		(dramatic music)
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Halloween is next week, meaning it's time for a slew of virtue signaling articles
		and think pieces on why every costume you wanna wear is racist, bigoted,
		or some evil form of cultural appropriation.
		Allow me to spare you the mental exhaustion and propose something truly radical right now.
		Wear whatever the heck it is you want to wear this Halloween.
		For me, it's going to be the same old Obi-Wan Kenobi costume I've worn for about the past 10 years, though this year I do think it'll look particularly sharp with my newfound beard.
		Forgetting the specifics of who's offended by what today, the real issue here I'd like to address is how the set of people who find offense everywhere are actually doing something much more offensive than any costume could ever accomplish.
		This endlessly outraged crowd are trying to suck the joy out of every facet of life from comedy to Halloween.
		It's just one of the many techniques these control freaks, masked as the good guys, use to whittle down your own sense of what's right and wrong until you bow to their demand of total conformity.
		Once they can get you to stop joking, stop wearing costumes you want to wear, and most importantly, stop thinking for yourself, it's very easy to manipulate you socially, politically, or otherwise.
		It's also one of the reasons we've seen so many thoughtful, decent people purged by this hysterical, shrieking movement over the past few years, such as some of my former guests like Brett Weinstein and Laura Kipnis.
		When conformity of thought is your number one goal, then diversity of thought is your number one enemy.
		This leaves little room for conversation, comedy, or costumes.
		It's precisely why comedy seems largely dead right now.
		Who turns on late night TV to watch a comedian lecture you about politics?
		Come to think of it, who turns on late night comedy at all anymore?
		What I wouldn't give for Johnny Carson to be resurrected from the dead to actually show these guys a thing or two.
		Once conversation and honest debate is taken away, all that is left is yelling.
		Once comedy is taken away, all that's left is lecturing.
		Once costumes are taken away, all that's left is conformity.
		None of this adds up to how a healthy society should operate.
		Does this mean that some conversations are hard to have?
		Yes.
		Does it mean that some jokes are offensive?
		Indeed.
		And does it mean that some costumes might trigger someone?
		Absolutely.
		But we shouldn't trade in the distinctly human trait of using our minds to talk, to joke, or to express ourselves through dressing how we please just because it might offend somebody.
		Of course, with all that in mind, it's up to you where that line from edginess to offense is.
		This is what great satirists and comics and writers have had to deal with for all time.
		If you get close to the line, you might just trip over it, and rightly or wrongly, there probably will be consequences for your misstep.
		One year in high school, I dressed up as an Amish guy, one of my buddies dressed up as an Orthodox Jew, and another dressed up as a Catholic priest.
		We didn't do it to offend anyone, we did it because it was different, and in some ways that's what Halloween is all about.
		We also egged a bunch of houses and stole candy, but fortunately that was before Twitter.
		As for me, I have no desire to go out of my way to offend anyone, but I understand why it's important to live in a society that allows us to do just that.
		So this Halloween, whether you're a slutty nun, a sexy Pocahontas, or a good old-fashioned geisha,
		remember, it's better to be any of those than a mindless, conformist zombie just looking for brains.
unidentified		[MUSIC]
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I'm a First Amendment absolutist.
		I believe in only two things completely.
		The First Amendment and boobs.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Joining me today is the host of Outkick, the coverage on Fox Sports Radio, and a man who has never, never been let down by boobs.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Clay Travis, welcome to the Rubin Report.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I'm happy to be here.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		That's the best introduction I've had in a long time.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is your introduction.
		I knew there was only one way I could do it, and it was going to have to be about boobs.
		You like boobs.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I do, and the First Amendment, both.
		In fact, when I showed up today at your place, I had on my boobs and First Amendment shirt that we sold a lot of after my appearance on CNN.
		And I'd like to say that it was some grand viral attempt to create a stir, and it's not like I'm beyond or above that, but no, I've been saying that for years, writing it, saying it for years, and say it to men, say it to women, and I certainly didn't think it was going to turn into the viral sensation that it did.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it did turn into viral.
		Yeah, I saw you were trending on Twitter.
		That's like basically the highest compliment that anyone can get these days.
		The outrage over it.
		So in a second, we're gonna show some of Brooke Baldwin's reaction.
		When you said it, truly, did you have no sense that anything was going to happen?
		Because I saw a lot of people say, ah, you see what he did there, you see he purposely did it.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, look, I said it on Headline News the day before to a female anchor.
		I have said it on my radio show probably a hundred times.
		I've written it in my columns.
		It's such words that I'm used to saying that I just went to it because it's part of a natural argument there.
		Remember, when I'm doing that show, and you'll know this, but I think a lot of people listening and viewing will not, I was doing that from my home studio.
		So I can stare, like I'm staring at you right now.
		I can see how you react to everything that I say.
		But in my home studio, I have no monitor, so I don't even know who the other person is that I'm talking with.
		I can just hear their voices, and I can't see her facial reactions at all.
		But as soon as she reacted, I knew what she was doing.
		I knew there was somebody in her ear saying, like, oh, this is Trump's America.
		You've got to go after this guy, Clay Travis.
		He's a misogynist.
		He's a bore.
		You've got to put him in his place.
		And so what I do for better or worse is when people want me to like hit reverse and back up and apologize
		I put the you know pedal to the metal and go forward full steam. So I doubled down I tripled down
		I may have even quadrupled down So once that happened, I knew what she was trying to do
		Yeah, I was her producer in her ear saying you got to stand up on behalf of all women or whatever, you know some some
		Clearly artificial reaction on her part, I think Because it really kind of torpedoed the entire segment.
		I mean, I thought it was unprofessional from her, frankly.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Well, the other guest then sort of bought in on it, too.
		He pretends, and then I think you, or at least one of your fans, unearthed some of his old tweets where he said... I mean, the idea that liking boobs has become misogynistic Yes.
		Shows you how bananas the whole debate has gotten.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Well, not only that, I mean, it's not like women are surprised that men like boobs, right?
		Cosmetic surgery is a big business.
		Victoria's Secret.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		We're in LA right now.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		Cosmetic surgery, the Victoria's Secret has revolutionized the bra industry in the last 30 years, like golf clubs, right?
		The new technology that comes out.
		So women understand that boobs are attractive to men, right?
		So it's not like it was somehow like this crazy thing to say, and then she was like, I can't believe you would say that to a woman.
		I'm like, I would say it to a man.
		For better or worse here, in large extreme, and my wife would say this too, I talk the same to men and women.
		And so to me, expecting that I would change the way I'm going to speak because a woman is interviewing me, I would talk to her that if you were a woman right now, I'd be talking to you the same way.
		To me, that's sexism.
		I try to treat everybody the exact same.
		It may not be great, right?
		People may say, oh, Clay Travis is an asshole, but he's equally an asshole to everybody if you want to criticize me for that, right?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		You're so right, that's what I used to say about gay marriage.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		It's like, you gotta let people be equal so that you can treat them as shitty as everybody else.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		If they don't have to be as miserable as my wife is, right?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		They deserve that right.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		They absolutely do.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		All right, so real quick, we're gonna show just the 45 second or so reaction from Brooke, and we're not gonna do an hour, we can do an hour of boobs, but we're not gonna, but let's just watch that real quick.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And I just wanna make sure I'm hearing you correctly.
unidentified		B-O-O-Z-E or B-O-O-B-S?
unidentified		Because as a woman, I'm, As in boobs.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I believe completely in the First Amendment and in boobs.
		Those are the only two things I believe 100% in, in this country.
		And by the way, Jamelle has absolutely nothing to do with her background at all.
unidentified		Why are you sitting here, live on CNN?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Immediately, did you notice that?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		He went straight to that.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're absolutely right.
unidentified		I did go straight to that.
unidentified		Guys, why would you even say that live on national television and with a female host?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Why would you even go there?
		I say it live on the radio all the time because it's true and that's what I do.
		Because I like boobs and the First Amendment, which is exactly what I said.
		Listen, listen, Brooke, I think that speaks for itself.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So the fake outrage, that's the interesting thing to me.
		And you already hit on this a little bit, but she most likely had somebody in her ear saying, you've got to stand up for women and all that stuff.
		Did you realize what was happening while it was happening?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Again, the challenge is I don't see the reaction.
		But I knew when she comes back to me and spells out boobs.
		Again, I had the opportunity to back up, but at that point in time, I meant what I said.
		It's not like I'm gonna say, oh, I apologize, let me throw myself into the fetal position and beg for the forgiveness of left-wing America who's perpetually outraged now.
		And in fact, I knew that I was in for a battle.
		I've said this before, but I kind of like being in the center of media storms.
		I feel like there's a certain peace that comes over you when you're in the middle of, in the arena, literally fighting in the moment.
		I love it.
		It reminds me of when I was a kid, Br'er Rabbit.
		The Br'er Rabbit story.
		Like, don't throw me in the briar patch.
		I love being in the briar patch.
		Or you hear pigs like don't get in the mud with a pig like he likes being in the mud.
		I like wallowing around in the mud.
		So I knew as soon as she cut the interview short that it was going to be a viral sensation,
		right?
		And I've been in enough of these situations where people choose sides automatically and
		they like, oh, Clay Travis is awesome.
		Oh, Clay Travis sucks.
		Bravo for CNN.
		CNN sucks.
		I know how, you know, sort of bipolar the reaction is going to be for lack of a better
		term.
		And so I immediately got on Twitter and tweeted out ESPN just, I mean, sorry, CNN could have
		been ESPN too.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		We'll get to ESPN in a sec.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		CNN just cut my interview short because I said I love the first amendment and boobs.
		I don't remember what the exact tweet I said was, but I sent that.
		And then I immediately got on, for the benefit of having all these media apparatus ready, I immediately got on Periscope and Facebook Live and told my side of the story and took it to the next level and said, oh by the way, we're going to sell First Amendment and boobs t-shirts and we're going to donate the proceeds to breast cancer awareness, which just throws everybody into an uproar, right?
		And then I think I was ahead of the media storm and I knew the media storm was going to come.
		And at that point in time you can't check your phone, you can't even check Twitter, it's just an onslaught.
		But what I did love was I got a call from CNN asking me to come on Monday.
		And so then I tweeted, like, CNN's not outraged, you know, they want me to come on Monday as well.
		They left me a voicemail, so I played that voicemail the next day.
		CNN denies that they left me a voicemail, says that there's no truth to it, and then late that night I get a text message saying, hey, this is not gonna work.
		But I will say this, and I've told this story maybe once or twice, but My wife is downstairs, because I do everything out of my house.
		And right before then, I'd been saying, OK, I've got to do this one more interview.
		It's been a busy week, because that had been a really busy week for us.
		It was Friday.
		And I was like, we'll be done in the afternoon.
		We'll chill.
		We'll go out.
		We'll take the boys out for pizza.
		Just have a chill night.
		And it's 2.30 in the afternoon my time, whatever it is.
		I do that hit.
		And my wife just texts me from downstairs.
		Never good when you get texted by your wife.
		Do I need to put the house on the market?
		Because my wife's fear, and I think there's probably a lot of spouses who have lived through this, is that when you're in the middle of this perpetual outrage machine, at some point the mob wins.
		And my argument is, I'm going to fight the mob for the rest of my life.
		I like it.
		I enjoy it.
		I think they're wrong and I'm right.
		But I think her fear is at some point they're going to come for you and they're going to scalp you and they're going to win a fight.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And when she saw that, she was like, this is going to be bad for you.
		They're going to typecast you as a sexist.
		They're going to say you hate women.
		And my argument was, I know that's not true.
		And accusations or insults levied against me that I know aren't true, if you want to say I'm racist, sexist, misogynistic, whatever else, you can call me whatever you want.
		To me, I've called myself worse.
		And I probably get called worse by the people that I live with.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		How did that conversation go with your wife?
		Because that's serious.
		That's serious stuff.
		I get it.
		I understand what that is.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, look, she is prepared.
		We watched, and I had to read, go back and read, 'cause Howard Stern's an idol of mine.
		So you need to read what his wife went through.
		Imagine what life was like for him in the early nineties.
		To me, when you're trying to be as honest as you possibly can, people say they want honesty, but a lot of times they don't really want honesty.
		They want the fluff.
		They want the, oh, racism is bad.
		Oh, sexism is bad.
		They don't want you to actually dive into the nitty gritty of details and figure out what the facts are of a situation.
		And I've always said that Maybe this came to me in law school.
		I remember a criminal law professor I had who said there are three things that matter about every case.
		The facts, the facts, and the facts.
		And for what we do, I always find that there's so few people who actually look at the facts, the original documents of a story, look at the basis for what they're basing their opinion on.
		And in this world that we live in now, everybody's decided what they believe, and a story happens, and everybody just uses it as an excuse to justify whatever they already believe.
		Facts be damned.
		And I feel like I'm in the rarity, you're in the rarity.
		You sit back and say, okay, let's actually look at the details here and figure out what the story is before we decide whether it fits our worldview or not.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and what's interesting, I think, for guys like us, and I think that we are, that these ideas, at least, are becoming the silent majority, is that, in our cases, we both are two-time Obama voters.
		Yes.
		I was a progressive.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I worked on Al Gore's presidential campaign.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So, we've done that.
		Like, it's not, you know, because after this, what interested me so much wasn't just, okay, the boobs comment.
		It is what it is, you know what I mean?
		But it's the reaction after the manufacturing of CNN, the PR team, inviting you on, then Brooke saying, no, he's banned forever.
		But just this machine versus the guy who is invited on, says a line that he always says, but then you took the power back, because you're like, I'll periscope the truth, I'll play the voicemail, but then you also have to deal with all the family shit and all that, and it just shows you.
		There's a certain David versus Goliath thing that I just love about this.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		It's totally true, and look, when I also went back, if you watch that clip, the other guy who was on there claims that he's offended by what I said, has sent all sorts of more ridiculous tweets, and my audience, that's the other good thing.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		That's a beautiful thing, right?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And you've got this too.
		The people who support us, Love us, right?
		And that is very gratifying because when you're in the war all the time, when you're in the battle every day, it's good to know there's some people who have your back.
		And they may not be able to have your back in the same public way that you or I can because this is what we do for a living, but there's so many people out there working at companies and serious jobs that are worried about being out there in the arena fighting because they've got to protect their family.
		They've got to make the mortgage payment.
		They've got to do everything else.
		But I think it's gratifying to see them saying, hey, we support you here.
		But yeah, they went back.
		I didn't do it.
		They went back and looked through all of his tweets and started popping me with, look at what this guy said.
		And then they go back and find the same thing with Brooke Baldwin.
		Don Lemon's on there talking about how great Kathy Griffin's rack is on with her.
		He's coming on to show his nipples on, you know, New Year's Eve.
		She doesn't react at all to that nipple.
		Kathy Griffin says nipple like six or seven times.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		And nobody cares.
		Nobody cares.
		That's the point.
		Nobody cares.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And to me, from a journalistic perspective, and I'm far from a journalist in a grand scheme, right?
		I'm an opinionist.
		But when you have the discussion going on, to me where she made the biggest error is, and it was great for me because it went viral.
		Millions of people saw it.
		We sold lots of shirts.
		We raised a lot of money for breast cancer awareness.
		It was all positive for me.
		But to me where she failed is, she had an opportunity to have a serious discussion about a substantive issue.
		And when you react to a word, which in no way needed to be reacted to,
		I was on to the next argument, right?
		It was just part and parcel of my larger argument.
		She allowed that segment to be derailed in a way that it didn't need to be.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		But isn't that so consistent with everything that this set of people is doing these days?
		Like if she would have just let it slide, or even just, it could have been a three second,
		ah, maybe that was the wrong word kind of thing, and then moved on, then this wouldn't have all happened.
		But what happened after?
		The truth is, Clay Travis is bigger.
		So as you've said here, the fact remains, this all worked to your advantage, because you like being in the fight, you know how to do it and all that.
		But what does that tell you about just the general state of media, but also sort of what's happening with the left?
		They so go over the top that they end up strengthening all... I mean, this is what they're doing with whatever the alt-right is, or the white supremacists these days, or all that.
		It's like you keep building them because you need them in a bizarre way.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and they need it.
		And they also are devouring... it's like a snake eating its own tail, right?
		The left devours itself.
		It seems to me is what is going on here.
		But you create all of these mountains of, oh, look, there have always been racist people.
		I go back in time and say, it's amazing to me that in 2017, while we're talking, the stock market is at an all-time high.
		Unemployment is at an all-time low.
		The per capita income of the average household has never been higher on an inflation-adjusted basis in the history of our nation.
		Those are three really magnificently big facts that should mean that people in the country are pretty happy.
		This should be like the late 90s, right?
		Like Bill Clinton was in charge getting blowjobs from interns.
		People are like, You know, I wish he hadn't gotten a blowjob from an intern, but stock market's rolling, everything's kind of good.
		He hasn't taken us to war trials.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I didn't mind the intern blowjob, by the way.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		What was funny was I was in GW at the time, in George Washington, in undergrad, and one of the guys that I knew, this is really funny, it was even funnier in the social media era, but he had been hooking up with Monica Lewinsky.
		Think about the president's selection and who he's having an affair with.
		She's also sleeping around that same time, maybe not the exact time, but with a random college guy.
		At least JFK was having an affair with Marilyn Monroe.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		We're probably going to find out a lot more in the next couple of days because they're going to drop these JFK files.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Maybe that was the reason he got assassinated, but at least he was with the most famous woman in the world at the time.
		That's kind of what you would want your president to have an affair with, right?
		Bill Clinton's having an affair with a random girl who's living in her mom's apartment in Watergate,
		which maybe speaks to Bill Clinton's ability to connect with everybody.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Maybe speaks to Hillary Clinton's lack of desire to have sex.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		All sorts of things that could hit with.
		But to me, this is actually a really good time in the country.
		And so I just don't buy into this, the world of fear.
		And I think there's so many people out there that are wrapped up and encapsulated by their fears every single day, right?
		They're afraid that there is violence lurking everywhere.
		And I know murder is up in the last couple of years and everything else, but I just think it's a pretty good time to be in America today.
		Of all the times I've been in the country, this is the least racist, this is the least sexist, things are moving in the right direction, and I feel like the left wing is making it such that people who might be natural allies, like you or I were, out there fighting for things, progressive ideals, They're making me take a step back and be like, I don't want to be on this person's side.
		If you're banning To Kill a Mockingbird because the N-word is in it, I don't want to be on your side.
		That's not a battle that I want to fight on your behalf, and I feel like they're alienating a lot of middle-of-the-road people.
		Not just conservatives, but lots of middle-of-the-road people.
		I consider myself to be a very middle-of-the-road guy, and the left wing has totally turned me off.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So, I completely agree, obviously, and I consider myself to be pretty center and, you know, I have, every week I have someone in here that I agree with on some stuff and disagree with on some other stuff.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I've literally never sat across from someone that I agreed with on everything.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		We're both brilliant, right?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's perfect.
		Yeah, we must be the Aristotle and Plato of our time, I guess.
		So you mentioned, right before we started, your wake-up, because as we said, you worked on the Gore campaign, you voted for Obama twice and all that.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Donated money to John Kerry.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Worked to try to help get elected a black guy running for the Senate in Tennessee, which you want to talk about a Sisyphean task.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		He lost to Bob Corker back in, I think it was 06.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I'm guessing you did it not because of the color of his skin, but because you liked his ideas?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Correct, because I thought he was a better candidate than Bob Corker was.
		And look, I worked in Democratic politics for three years while I was in college.
		I was on the Hill with Nashville's congressman.
		I'm born and raised in Nashville, Tennessee.
		And so I did all of those things.
		I got fired off of the campaign to replace this guy, Bob Clement, by Jim Cooper because I wrecked his wife's Volvo.
		This is actually a pretty funny story.
		After my first year of law school, I was madly in love with my then-girlfriend, now-wife.
		And she went off to college.
		She decided she didn't want to be a lawyer.
		We met in law school.
		And she went to New York for the summer to dance with Alvin Ailey.
		Talented, went on to be a Titans cheerleader.
		That's where the outkick, the coverage phrase comes from, right?
		I ended up with a girl a lot better than I deserve, like a lot of people probably who are watching and listening right now.
		And so he wasn't a congressman yet.
		He was a former congressman who had lost the Senate race to Fred Thompson.
		He was running for the Nashville seat, Jim Cooper.
		And so he had a health scare.
		He actually had colon cancer.
		They found like a colon polyp or whatever it is and he had to have surgery.
		And so he was off the campaign trail.
		I was his body man.
		I went everywhere that he went.
		So that was a cool kind of ground floor introduction to politics.
		And so when he went away, he was going to be off the trail for a week, I decided to fly to New York City to go surprise my girlfriend, now wife, spend the weekend with her hanging out in New York City.
		Middle of a horrible heat wave, she was living in this dingy, like, you know, like, awful, like, literally, like, like not much bigger than this table.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Probably the same building I used to live in.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		Like a lot of people who are young and in college and are in New York City for the summer.
		So we're up there hanging out and I flew into Islip because Southwest Airlines from Nashville was so much cheaper than flying into LaGuardia or JFK would have been.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I'm a Long Island guy.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I know Islip well.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		So I flew into Islip and you had to take the Long Island Railroad into the city, the LIRR, right?
		And so I'm going back on Sunday, and that Sunday they had a massive, I think it was like a gas leak, and they shut down the LIRR.
		So you couldn't get to Iceland, unless you had, I don't know what a cab cost back then, like $200.
		It might have been $200,000 to me at the time, right?
		And so I had to take the, they turned everybody around, went back.
		I didn't get back in time.
		He shows up several days early to start campaigning.
		And at the same time, I had also just wrecked his wife's car, his wife's Volvo.
		And so they fired me.
		So that was the end of my political career.
		I was 23.
		And, uh, and I was, but I was working on a democratic campaign.
		He's still a friend of mine.
		Uh, but yeah, so it wasn't just that I voted democratic.
		It was like, I literally gave what I think is almost the most sacrosanct of everything that you can give my labor.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you actually did.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		On behalf of getting these people elected.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		It's so funny, because I said to you right before we started, I was like, when I started, I wanted to do what you do.
		I mean, I wanted to be like a sports center anchor, be talking sports all day.
		Now I'm talking politics all day.
		It's like you were doing more political stuff.
		Now you're talking sports, but you're talking politics all the time too.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		They've intersected, and I'm sure we're going to get to that.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		It's inescapable.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let's get to that, because I talked about it a bunch with Whitlock, Jason Whitlock, and he really crystallized it for me, because I do, I am starting to see this as a major danger to society.
		I agree with you on the hopefulness part right now.
		I agree there's so much fertile ground for ideas.
		Even the people who have ideas that are completely against mine, 180, fight for them, and guess what?
		They are fighting for them.
		I think they're the wrong ideas, but as long as we're not killing each other, I think this argument is good.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		The marketplace of ideas is good for America.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I'm all about that.
		What I do think is actually dangerous, though, is the inability right now for us to escape the fight, which is why I try to take weekends off social media and all that stuff.
		But for you, a guy that's in sports, sports to me, when sports done right is the most beautiful thing ever based in competition and it doesn't matter where you're from or what religion you are.
		It's beautiful, beyond just the athletic part of it.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		The neurosurgeon and the janitor can get together and talk as equals about sports in a way that I don't think happens in any other part of American life today.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, or any time if you just go play pickup basketball, you don't care what color anyone is, can they play?
unidentified		Yes.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Can they play?
		That's it.
		But this thing where they've become so intertwined now, for you, you like both, so I get it's probably pretty cool for you, but do you think at a societal level that there's something kind of dangerous going on here?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think in general, because I think that what I talked about before is sports is a connective tissue that I think binds many people in this country who would otherwise have nothing else in common.
		And I speak from somebody's perspective who is from the South.
		I grew up in Nashville.
		SEC football, if you are in the 11 state football region, the 11 state SEC teams are in, is the tie that binds.
		The first book that I wrote, Dixieland Delight, was about why people love SEC football so much.
		And it unites across racial grounds, at least in my generation.
		Obviously, it was a big part of why the South, in general, got integrated.
		Because if you believe the stories about Bear Bryant, he decided, you know what, we've got to have some black guys on the team because USC came down to Alabama and kicked their ass with Sam Bam Cunningham.
		And the famous line, even though it may not be 100% true, is that in 60 minutes, Sam Cunningham did more to integrate the South than anybody else had done in 200 years.
unidentified		Right?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Because people loved football so much, they said, wait, we've got to be better.
		And we gotta have the best people regardless of where they're from, regardless of their color, regardless of their religion, anything else.
		And so I think what's happened is you go from there to the Michael Sam, the Caitlyn Jenner, the Colin Kaepernick era, and we can talk about all of those, but those are all, to me, things that take us outside of the field of competition.
		And Michael Sam is a fascinating one because I think the NFL is the ultimate meritocracy.
		Doesn't matter where you're from, doesn't matter whether, maybe you can even read, right?
		If you can get on the football field and make it more likely that a team is going to win, then a team will find a place for you.
		And I think, starting with Michael Sam, a lot of people in sports, when they showed him kissing his boyfriend, and like, I'm a pro-gay marriage guy, right?
		People always say like, I'm pro-choice.
		I am, you know, anti-the-death-penalty.
		Like, I could run through all my lists, right?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we should probably, after this story, maybe we'll do that, yeah.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, like, things that I don't think necessarily would be, like, Politico said, oh, Clay Travis is a hero of the alt-right.
		I don't know what that means, but I'm like, are there tons of people who are pro-choice out there in the alt-right?
		Are there tons of people who voted for Barack Obama in the alt-right?
		I mean, I think it's a funny kind of creation of a media falsehood there.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		The second I saw that headline, I do want to talk about that article for a second, but the second I saw the headline, without even reading it, I knew.
		I was like, I know exactly what they're doing, and here we go.
		But let's pause on that for a second.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and so I saw with Michael Sam, I said, what I saw immediately was, this is not similar to Jackie Robinson.
unidentified		Okay?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Because Jackie Robinson could not escape his race.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Moreover, everybody by looking at him knew what his race was.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Michael Sam, more power to him for being gay and being comfortable coming out.
		I hope he's having a happy life.
		But the NFL fan doesn't care about Michael Sam being gay.
		Unless Michael Sam is a great football player, moreover.
		The average NFL fan doesn't care about Michael Sam at all.
		If you cover football, you cover guys who make the team much more likely to win.
		If you're just a distraction, in terms of you're not making the team more likely to win, then nobody's going to cover you.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		But is there an inherent problem with that, though, at some level, that if these guys, if no one is out, then it's incumbent on them, someone's got to do it first.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		And it's like, on some level, should it be the star of stars who's going to potentially then create all sorts of problems for the team and all that media stuff, or should it be the guy that might be about to be cut and then he doesn't want to do it?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So there's like a little bit of a tough spot there.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I think it certainly is a story, but I think the way it was covered, it was covered as if people really cared.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Right.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		If he were a great defensive end who had 20 sacks a year, then the profile pieces on Michael Sam I think would have made sense.
		The fact that he decided that he wanted to go public with the fact that he was gay, I think a lot of fans started to say, OK, I feel like I'm watching the NFL to see whether or not my team's going to win, not to make a societal statement.
		I don't think people who disagree with gay marriage are awful human beings.
		There are a lot of people in my state who don't believe that people should be able to get married if they're gay.
		I disagree with them, but I don't think they're horrible, racist, bigot, awful human beings.
		I grew up in a Southern Baptist church.
		The vast majority of people who went to my Southern Baptist church probably would have that belief, right?
		I don't think they're awful human beings.
		I know them pretty well.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		You know what you can do is talk to them instead of just telling them.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right, and try to persuade them that they're wrong in the marketplace of ideas.
		I know, it's frickin' rocket science.
		Instead of immediately attacking them, right?
		But to me, that eye-opening moment for me was Mizzou.
		And the University of Missouri, for people who don't know it, this was like kind of everything that I care about coming together.
		SEC football, I remember being on the airplane, flying back from LA where I was working with Fox Sports, and my Twitter feed blows up.
		And as all these people out there talking about the fact that Missouri's football team has said they are not going to play unless the demands of this guy who are hunger striking and the other Black Lives Matter activists are agreed to.
		And everybody on Twitter is amazing.
		Just about everybody is saying, so brave of the Missouri football team.
		So brave of Gary Pinkle to support them.
		This is a massive moment in the world of sports.
		We're seeing the power of athletes raising their voice.
		And my first thought was, okay, all that's fine.
		What's being protested?
		I understand.
		I've been on a college campus.
		I've been in Missouri.
		I've talked to those kids there.
		It doesn't seem like a fundamentally racist place to me.
		They had a gay, black student body president.
		They had embraced Michael Sam.
		It doesn't seem like a school that has an inclusiveness or diversity problem.
		So I said, okay, what are the issues?
		Three things that brought about this protest.
		One, the student body president allegedly, when he was off campus, somebody yelled a racial slur to him from a red truck.
		No idea who it was.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		May have happened.
		Sucks.
		It happened.
		No witnesses.
		We don't even know if it happened, but I went to GW, right?
		I went to school in Washington, D.C.
		When I was on college campus, if I had gone to the president of the student body at the time, and I had said, hey, when I was walking off campus, somebody came by, and I've got a couple of my Jewish friends, and somebody yelled an antisemitic slur on us, you need to do something about it.
		He'd be like, That's life.
		You're in a big city.
		People are not always going to be nice to you.
		I wish that nobody was anti-semitic in this entire city of Washington, D.C.
		Probably people who hate Jewish people, gay people, black people, white people.
		There's a lot of hate that exists in the world.
		When you're off campus, that's not my responsibility.
		So that was one.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		And you just can't manage all that stuff.
		I mean, that's the other piece.
		You just can't.
		You can't manage humanity.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Even the idea that you should go talk to the president of the school because somebody allegedly said something mean to you when you were off campus?
		Like all of the things that the president of the university has going on.
		I've been arguing for a while that we need, instead of like all these inclusiveness ideas and everything else, there should also be a counter example here where the person who makes the most ridiculous protest has to walk around with a poster board that says I'm a gigantic pussy all over campus so everybody can know like you had the dumbest thing to complain about on campus this week.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the Women's March people like those pussy hats, so you could probably just get a pussy hat.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		No doubt, you could just walk around in a pussy hat, and that's ideal now.
		So that was one of the things.
		The other one was a poop swastika.
		And this is just a funny creation in and of itself, because we don't know, like I said before, if I had shown up here, And somebody had shown up, and they had been like, Clay Travis, I'm a huge fan of yours.
		And they had handed me a portrait of me done in poop.
		I wouldn't be like, oh my god, this is an endorsement of me.
		I'd be like, that's a really fucking psychotic thing to do, right?
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		So, we don't know, like, when I hear poop swastika, I actually think that's probably somebody who's not a huge fan of the swastika.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And, or, how crazy would you have to be to use your own feces to make a poop swastika, right?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So this is a mental health issue, more than anything else.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Probably, and we don't know who did it.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Right, so that's really the issue, though, is because virtue signaling has hit that fevered pitch to the point that people are, we know that a lot of this stuff is hoaxes.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we simply know it can be true.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		It happens every day.
		So it could have been anybody.
		It could have been a Jewish guy who did it.
		It could have been a Jewish girl.
		It could have been a black person who's in the protest that did it, right?
		They have mental health issues.
		The third one was somebody walking through campus who was not a student said a racial slur.
		They shut down the University of Missouri over these three things.
		The football team said they weren't gonna play.
		And so I dove into all these details.
		I wrote about it.
		And I wrote about it, I covered it pretty aggressively.
		And I was stunned that I was the only person in the world of sports media who was approaching the story of the Missouri protest by actually looking at the facts and saying, you know what?
		I don't think that these activists on campus who want the university president to stand up on a table
		in the university cafeteria and denounce his white privilege
		is really like when you looked at the list of the demands that they made.
		And yet these protesters were covered in such a positive way
		that the president of the university was forced to resign and the overall chancellor
		of the University of Missouri was forced out.
		And since then enrollment has dropped 35%.
		The university in many ways has almost died.
		Well, that was just a couple of years ago.
		And to me, that was the first moment for me of really kind of diving into a media story
		It was SEC football, it was a southern university that I was familiar with, it was sports, and it was a political protest.
		And I said, my God, there was no basis in reality for this.
		What should have happened is the media should have looked at this, pointed out how illegitimate it was, that Gary Pinkle's response was actually rooted in cowardice, not bravery, that the football team's decision not to play was rooted not in an understanding of a legitimate protest, but just kind of like a viral form of stupidity.
		I was the only person saying it.
		And since then, it was like, all of a sudden, I pulled, you know, like the world was, like taking the pill in The Matrix, right?
unidentified		Yeah, the red pill.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Like the analogy that I've used.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		You take the red pill, and suddenly you start to realize how much that surrounds you is bullshit, and that was the first story where I really noticed it.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		How quickly did the rest disintegrate for you?
		Because I've noticed with people, and I actually had a girl on here who you'd probably really dig, her name's Candace Owens, her Twitter's Red Pill Black, that's her YouTube thing, and basically she was a lefty her whole life, I think she's in her late 20s now, basically came out as a black conservative, did a really funny video coming out to her parents as a conservative, but basically what she said is once she saw it, it crumbled really quick.
		For me, because I try to be so measured with everything, it took a little while.
		People watched it happen to me over the course of a couple years, because I kept trying, I kept going, this can't be, it can't be as bad as I think it is.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I think people have seen me evolve.
		Because I'll get people now who say, oh, I used to listen to your show, and you wouldn't ever be involved in stories like these.
		And to me, what I kind of found was, If I'm not saying it, there's not anybody saying it, right?
		That's still what's kind of remarkable about what I do in the world of sports, is I look at facts, and I talk about facts, and almost nobody else is doing it.
		And so it was kind of a gradual thing.
		I could point to that, you know, the Caitlyn Jenner decision.
		I was like, it seemed to me ESPN, I still believe, gave her that award so they could get an exclusive with Diane Sawyer.
		They put it on ABC.
		I'm like, you know what?
		I mean, I understand the purpose of heroism.
		One of my family members is trans.
		Like, if it makes you happy, you'll do it.
		But I don't think that, to me, bravery requires risk of life or liberty.
		And I don't think that Caitlyn Jenner risked either.
		And so the idea that she was incredibly heroic, I didn't necessarily buy into.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Well, she was also an athlete 30 years ago or whatever.
		40 years ago, basically, right?
		Yes.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Like, you could find somebody.
		When I see Kim Kardashian on the front row at the ESPYs, I'm like, this is a total ratings ploy.
		ESPN's full of shit in the way that they're talking about this.
		And then, as this kind of progressed, the Colin Kaepernick thing, but before the Colin Kaepernick thing happened, we had the Ryan Lochte story.
		And, to me, and the Peyton Manning story.
		Peyton Manning moved a trainer 20 years ago, and suddenly he becomes an incredible example of white privilege.
		And you go back and look at it, and the woman who accused him was Out to lunch.
		Like, she was crazy.
		She was calling people at all hours of the night.
		She wasn't a reliable witness.
		And the example I use is, we're in this weird place where if a minority says something happened or a woman says something happened, you have to believe them or else you are racist or sexist.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		It's not just believe, you have to bow to it forever.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And so my argument is, I like to go back to Kill a Mockingbird, which now is getting banned in the state of Mississippi because of, you know, it's insanity, right?
		We're in like a book-burning era almost, it seems.
		But, in To Kill a Mockingbird, Atticus Finch puts Mayella Ewell on the witness stand, and he aggressively questions whether or not she was raped.
		And by virtue of that aggressive questioning, we find out that she made up the allegation that she was raped by a black man, Tom Robinson.
		The jury still convicts him because that's the broken system of Southern jurisprudence in a pre-Civil Rights era.
		But it's a powerful moment because that's why we have an adversarial system.
		You don't automatically assume that somebody is telling the truth because of their race or because of their gender.
		And we have so swung, I believe, from an era where a black guy is automatically guilty in the South because he's black to a black guy is telling the truth because he's a black guy.
		Or a woman's not telling the truth because she's a woman to a woman's telling the truth because she's a woman.
		I think you have to look, and this is a crazy, I can't believe I have to say this, but I think you have to look at the facts of every individual case.
		I think that rape happens.
		I think it's awful.
		But that doesn't mean that I think every time a woman says she was raped, it's true.
		I think that racism is awful.
		It shouldn't happen.
		But that doesn't mean that every time somebody says something racist happened that you have to believe it.
		Michael Bennett's case, it's mind-boggling to me that I'm like the only person who covered the Michael Bennett case.
		The guy lied about his treatment by three minority police officers in Las Vegas and again all these red pill moments, the Ryan Lochte, the Peyton Manning, the Michael Bennett, the Missouri The Benething one is particularly interesting though because the second it all came out, the story just disappeared.
		Yes.
		The media didn't cover it.
unidentified		What?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		What just happened?
		And I have what I would say, like Hemingway said, a writer has to have a natural bullshit detector, right?
		And also that you see the iceberg.
		But you don't see everything underneath the iceberg.
		Well, maybe it's the legal foundation, the legal training, also my fascination with stories.
		But I feel like I can see a story and believe whether or not it's likely to be true based on the way it's told.
		That's because I think I would be a good trial attorney, right?
		I can sit down, ultimately your storytelling contest.
		Who can tell the more believable story?
		Michael Bennett's story on its face when he put it out, Did not make sense.
		There are, and since we know what the Las Vegas police responding to a real shooting is like, but there was a report of a shooting in a crowded casino.
		And Michael Bennett said that as they arrived for that report of a shooting, they decided to grab him and harass him and violate his civil rights because he was a black guy.
		Well, that didn't make any sense to me.
		I'm like, wait, there's a report of an active shooter in a casino and these cops who are arriving on the scene with that information make the decision to suddenly decide to be racist against Michael Bennett?
		At that exact moment, while they think there may be thousands of lives in peril and an active shooting going on, they clearly thought that he was behaving in a suspicious fashion.
		That's what I think at the get-go.
		I didn't know at the time they were two Hispanic and a black guy.
		I hadn't seen the videos, but that's kind of, I say, my life kind of changed in one way, I think, when I did a ride-around.
		When I was in law school, I'd encourage everybody out there who's listening or watching now, follow a cop for a night.
		Just sit in a car with a cop and see what they go through.
		And I think you will have so much more respect for the difficulty of their job.
		And so I have a lot of respect for the difficulty of a police job.
		And so when I was kind of like going through this process, I looked at it and then we had the videos come out and everything else.
		Basically he's proven a liar.
		On video.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And nobody covers it.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Suddenly it disappeared.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And then this one also is crazy to me.
		We praise athletes for saying things that are dumb.
		Right?
		And the reason why athletes keep talking is, if you give somebody a cookie, like if I give my kid a cookie and tell them they did something good, they're going to keep doing it even if they're doing something stupid, right?
		That's what athletes are like right now.
		And so every time an athlete speaks out, people praise them.
		LeBron James said last year, every time his son leaves the house, he worries that he might get shot by a police officer.
		And everybody's like so brave of LeBron James to come out and say this.
		You look at the data.
		LeBron James' son is five times as likely to get hit by a train and die as he is to get shot by a police officer when he leaves the house.
		If LeBron James had said, every time my son leaves the house, I worry that he's going to get hit by a train, everybody would have been like, LeBron James lost his mind, right?
		But people believe fundamental untruths because nobody actually goes into the data and looks at it.
		And so all these athletes, and Colin Kaepernick's a great example, Colin Kaepernick drives me insane.
		The whole Colin Kaepernick protest.
		Because when he started protesting, he was protesting something that he wanted the government to do, which the government was already doing!
		He said he was upset by the killing of innocent minorities by police officers, and he wanted the government to help make it stop.
		Barack Obama is the President.
		Loretta Lynch is the Attorney General.
		They're already aggressively investigating every one of the Trayvon Martin, of the Michael Brown case.
		All of the stories, they're already investigating.
		So the analogy I use is, Obama could have just thrown Kaepernick under the bus and been like, I'm glad that he's protesting, but we're already doing exactly what he wants us to do.
		The analogy that I use is, basically, Kaepernick walked into McDonald's took a knee, said that he, at 1130,
		said that he wanted breakfast.
		The manager of McDonald's comes back out, says he's not gonna stand up till he gets breakfast,
		and says, "Actually, we serve breakfast "all day long here already."
		But you would think that Colin Kaepernick was Rosa Parks the way the media has covered him.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why, also, it's so strange to me that people don't hit on what Jason Whitlock
		was so succinct about, which is this is all a business.
		At the end of the day, no one is, none of these owners of the teams or the general managers or any of these things, yes, again, are there racist people?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And we wish they didn't exist.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And we will fight to beat their bad ideas.
		Absolutely.
		But at the end of the day, if you own something and your employees are doing things that are hurting the bottom line, even if you're for the protest, if that protest means that enough of your fans aren't buying jerseys, aren't showing up to games, you're a businessman.
		You're not a magical societal puppeteer or something.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And people don't understand that, and the analogy that I use, I always try to use analogies, because people understand better if you, because everything has become so charged if you talk about it in a sports context.
		So what I say is, what would you think if you had a package coming from UPS or FedEx, and when the guy showed up for the UPS or FedEx package, he had on a Make America Great Again hat?
		And he said, hey, hope you vote for Donald Trump.
		Man, I don't think it's good for UPS's or FedEx's business.
		Or he could have had a pussy hat on and he could have said, I hope you're going to vote for Hillary Clinton, right?
		Either direction.
		Or if he drove off in their car and they've got a bumper sticker that supports a political candidate one way or the other.
		A police officer.
		If you got pulled over for speeding, a police officer came up to the window and he said, like, hey, got you for speeding.
		Here's your ticket.
		Oh, by the way, Mitch McConnell's an ass.
		Don't vote for him.
		Right?
		Whatever you're saying.
unidentified		Right.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		You'd be like, it's not appropriate for somebody in a police uniform or a military uniform or a UPS or FedEx or McDonald's or Walmart to be expressing political views while they are in uniform on their job.
		Everybody out there be like, oh yeah, I agree with that.
		Then why do you think Colin Kaepernick should be able to do it?
		Especially now in a social media age, players have the ability to get their political beliefs out to a larger audience than has ever existed before.
		People say, oh, he's a modern-day Ali.
		Oh, it's like the 1968 Olympics.
		Ali was not an employee.
		Boxers are self-employed, by and large.
		He was not getting a paycheck signed by an owner every week.
		And the athletes at the Olympics at the time were amateurs.
		They might have been representing their country, but they weren't representing anything other than themselves.
		If you think that it makes sense for an athlete to alienate half of his audience of the businessman, I think you're crazy.
		People are ripping Jerry Jones.
		I think that's pure insanity.
		Ultimately, I think it goes back to what we were talking about before we even went on.
		Most people have no idea how they get paid today.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And so I think that there's a divorce between athletes understanding that Fans ultimately pay their salary.
		And they pay their salary by watching their games, by going to their games, by being engaged in the overall storylines.
		And so to me, when I saw the Colin Kaepernick story, I was... Again, it's the red pill moment.
		Like, how in the world are there so many dumb people trying to cover this story and doing such a poor job of it?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and ironically, it's not even that they're all dumb.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		They're just trying to manipulate other people for clicks.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I think there's that, and I think there's also a genuine fear that you're going to get fired if you say anything other than somebody alleging racism is a hero.
		I mean, I think there's a lot of white people.
		If you want to criticize the diversity of the sports media, there's no diversity of thought, first of all.
		96% of people did not vote for Donald Trump.
		You know, it's almost impossible to find somebody who admittedly voted for Donald Trump that writes or talks about sports.
		And also, there's a lot of white guys.
		And even if you are conservative in your mindset, and there aren't that many to begin with, there is a fear that if you go out and do what I did, if you say these protesting Missouri students who are predominantly black, if you say you think they're full of shit, well that means you're racist.
		Why?
		You know, like, I think people who are full of shit are full of shit regardless of what color they are, and that's why I look at the facts.
		And, you know, sometimes, you know, there is legitimacy behind a complaint.
		I said that I thought Ezekiel Elliott getting suspended was ridiculous.
		It didn't have anything to do with the fact that Ezekiel Elliott's black.
		It had to do with the fact that the NFL, I think, had poor evidence to support his suspension.
		So I go to the real documents, I look at them, and as a result, like, somehow I've become the most controversial person in the world of sports.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So I think all this is an interesting segue to Jemele Hill, which will kind of get us into ESPN in general.
		And again, all these things are so related, from what the individual is doing to the employer to now the companies and everything else, and we can talk about Trump and all that.
		But Jemele Hill's an interesting one.
		I would love to have her on the show.
		She's welcome to come on.
		She said this thing about Trump being a white supremacist.
		Now, I don't agree with the premise, but I do defend her right to say what she wants, of course.
		But that comes with the risk that you're talking about.
		Your employer may not be that thrilled.
		Then a couple weeks go by and then she's actively telling people to boycott ESPN's advertisers.
		That is, to me, that is as fireable of an offense as you could possibly have as an employee of a company.
		Telling the people who pay the bills!
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I think it goes to a lack of comprehension about how you're paid, right?
		Because ultimately, I understand, you have to figure out how the business model is funded.
		And she said boycott AT&T.
		AT&T provides 15% of the revenue of ESPN through DirecTV plus all their sundry other advertisements that they pay.
		To me, the Jamel Hill mess was set in place by a prior decision which was a wrong one.
		And I'm a First Amendment absolutist.
		We said before I love First Amendment and boobs.
		And I think what's a little bit scary about the First Amendment and why a lot of people follow us is in a modern social media era, You, even if you're off your job, can be fired for something that you put on Facebook or that you put on Twitter or Instagram or Snapchat.
		It's instant from going being no name at all to being virally famous.
		And it's a great book.
		You probably have read it.
		So you've been publicly shamed.
		I think it was John Robertson.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I know it.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I haven't read it.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's so good.
		But a lot of it is what we live, right?
		And so it's fine for people like you or me, because we have a little bit of public profile.
		So if somebody decides, "Oh, Clay Travis said something controversial
		and comes after me."
		Well, there's people who know me and are gonna defend me.
		If you're just a regular person, there's probably not very many people
		who are gonna defend you.
		It turns into a mob really quickly.
		And so I think this is emblematic of larger society as a whole.
		I think it's a little bit scary that people are constantly being judged by what they say on social media as it pertains to their job.
		I don't know why everybody suddenly works in HR and our immediate reaction when somebody says something you don't like Whatever political side you're on, that person should be fired.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Isn't it funny?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		You wake up and you look at Twitter and I'm like, alright, who today, that I've never heard of before, is going to either be a star or just going to be publicly shamed or destroyed?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Tar and feathered.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Wait, what was the decision?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		So, the first decision that was wrong was Kurt Schilling.
		Kurt Schilling went on his private Facebook page when he was not on air.
		I make this distinction, and I think some people follow it, some people don't.
		If Jemele Hill goes on 6pm SportsCenter and she says, the Rockets won last night, and oh by the way, Donald Trump's a white supremacist and all of his supporters are racist, she should be fired.
		Because that's ESPN using their method of distribution to reach all of their audience.
		And people go on there expecting that they're not going to hear about Donald Trump being a white supremacist.
		And the same thing would be true of Curt Schilling.
		Curt Schilling got fired because he had done several things, he's a conservative, but he had shared a meme which basically ridiculed the North Carolina transgender bathroom debate.
		And it was like a popular meme on the internet that lots of people were sharing, like something about like a guy who was dressed up like a woman, like let him use the bathroom with your daughter, whatever.
		And again, I don't have an issue with the, I think this is a great example of how we manufacture issues that shouldn't exist.
		somehow in the 60s, the 70s, after the civil rights movement, the rest of the 60s, the 70s, 80s, 90s,
		2000s, 2000 teens, people who are dressed like one sex use that bathroom. And we've never had an issue...
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Trans people have been going to the bathroom.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I haven't heard a lot of problems about it.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Never had an issue.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		The example I use is, we don't have somebody crocodile Dundee gender checking coins outside, right?
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		So, that's a Sheila.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Give it a chance.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		Maybe so.
		And so, I don't think his opinion was irrational.
		I don't think it was outlandish.
		I think it was certainly permissible.
		Because, in his private life, that's what he believes.
		They fired him for it.
		And I think once they fired him for that, they established there are private opinions that ESPN employees can have which don't allow them to have public opinions on the world of sports.
		Curt Schilling wasn't fired because he did a bad job analyzing whether the Red Sox should change relief pitchers, right? He wasn't fired because he said
		something on the air that was bad for ESPN's business. He was fired because people decided to follow his
		private political opinions and deem them to be unacceptable. My issue with ESPN is not
		politics. It's that they have decided that only left-wing politics are permissible. So when Jamelle
		Hill says that the president is a white supremacist, that his supporters are all racist, and
		that everybody that surrounds him is also a white supremacist, including, by the way,
		potentially his daughter who is Jewish, and his granddaughter i don't think there that his wife who
		is an immigrant Yes, yes.
		I don't think there are that many people who would marry an immigrant and also be very comfortable with having grandchildren who are Jewish that are just fundamentally vile human beings who judge based on race, gender, religion, whatever.
		So, when she gives that opinion, they have set the precedent of, you could be fired for a political opinion.
		They don't do anything for that opinion.
		They basically wrap her on her knuckles, say she shouldn't have done that.
		And it clearly establishes what I've been writing and talking about for a long time, which is ESPN has one standard of speech for left-wing political belief, and another standard for right-wing.
		And to me, that's emblematic not just of ESPN, but of our culture as a whole when it comes frequently to the world of sports media, which I'm in.
		I don't think you're an awful human being if you disagree with the fact that Charlotte has a rule about transgender bathroom.
		I think it's stupid that we end up in this debate because, again, it's a fundamentally artificial debate designed to play to the bases of the left and the right and create conflict where we don't need it.
		But I don't think you having one opinion or the other there is an awful one.
		I think it's an artificial construct.
		And I don't think that ESPN can make the decision, oh because of this we're pulling our games, our All-Star game, out of the city of Charlotte.
		And the same thing of the ACC and all these other sports media leviathans that did that.
		And then you're also, by the way, playing games in Mexico, which has much worse of a human rights issues and violations when it comes to gays.
		NBA's got games in China, which doesn't even allow people to get on, you know, like the internet and use it freely.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		We're building, or not we, but Qatar is building the World Cup Stadium for whatever it is.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		With slave labor.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		With slave labor, literally.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And also, all these, it's not just athletics, by the way, it's all these people who are musicians, they come out and say, oh, we're not going to play in North Carolina, but then they're playing in Latvia, you know?
		Like, literally, then they are playing for Saudi Arabia, which just now allowed women to drive cars, right?
		It's an artificial outrage machine that isn't rooted in any kind of reality, and I think sports has become one of the driving forces of it.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So how do we take some of this back?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a great question.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I think we're doing it.
		I think conversations like this are actually doing it.
		And as we were saying before--
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I think there's lots of people taking the red pill.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah. - Yeah.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		But where does this put you even politically actually?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Because if we were to go through a couple of things, you're rightful of a couple--
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		You can ask me questions.
		Well, let's--
		I answer everything completely honestly.
		You can answer me, ask me any question, I'll give you the complete answer.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I never give my guests a question beforehand, but I had no doubt.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Because that's one of the things that I get criticized about.
		I've turned down my own television show to be able to say exactly what I think, right?
		I think the most illegitimate, you can attack my beliefs as much as you want, I'm wide open to that.
		The most illegitimate thing that people say about me is, Clay Travis is just saying that because he wants to get attention, or because he's trying to sell to a mark.
		No!
		I have literally turned down millions of dollars To be able to say exactly what I believe.
		My ability to tell you exactly what I think is, to me, the most important thing that I do.
		And to the extent, like, everybody sells out on some level.
		Like, I don't know how many people who are in my industry would turn down their own television show so they can still sell everybody what they think about Game of Thrones, which I was told I couldn't talk about, as well as every political belief I've ever had.
		So yeah, fire away.
		I mean, I think this is kind of fascinating.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Well, just for the record, I've had at least three offers for networks for more money than I'm making, and I've said no, too, because of this.
		As you said, you have a home studio.
		I have a home studio.
		Nobody is controlling us.
		There is nothing in our ear.
		It doesn't mean we're going to be right all the time, but what it means is we're going to be real, or at least as real as is humanly possible.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		There's so much bullshit in America right now that I think what matters more than anything else, regardless of what you believe, is that you are authentically in what you believe.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And that people who are watching this conversation between the two of us, I think they'll say, wow, that sounds like a real conversation that real people are having, as opposed to, like you said, somebody in our ear talking for three minutes and telling us what to say and creating artificial debate.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So I sense that you're probably right where I am in that I think you're probably a classical liberal.
		I don't know that you've, I know you voted for Gary Johnson this past time, as I did too.
		It was the most sad little check off of anything I've ever done.
		I've had him on the show, he's a perfectly nice guy, but he's a terrible candidate.
		Okay, again, we both voted for him.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		My hope was that he was going to be a lot better than he was, or that there would have been a viable option there, as opposed to the two most hated candidates that have ever been nominated by major political parties in our country's history.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I'm with you, brother.
		Okay, so he was a libertarian candidate, obviously.
		So I sense that you're somewhere between probably a classical liberal and a libertarian.
		I don't even think defining them so perfectly is that important.
		But you mentioned a couple, a little bit of your liberal cred, so you want to just knock Yeah, look, I'm pro-choice.
		Okay, me too.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I think that you should have that right if you're a woman to decide whether or not to have a baby.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I am.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I'm begrudgingly pro.
		I'll even go further than that.
		I really struggle with it, but at the moment I am pro-choice.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I am.
		When it comes to the death penalty, because I've worked in the criminal justice system, I think the death penalty presumes a level of certitude that does not exist.
		I think it presumes that we are flawless.
		I think we're all flawed no matter what we do for a living.
		I think there probably have been innocent people put to death for crimes they did not commit.
		And I think if you or I were accused of murder, we wouldn't get the death penalty because we're wealthy enough to afford good attorneys.
		So I think if you are poor and likely to be not represented by a quality attorney, you're more likely to get the death penalty.
		So I think that's an unfair aspect of it as well.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so against the death penalty, pro-choice.
		So far, so good.
		Your four-day marriage, we got that one already.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Four-day marriage.
		I am, I would say from a, I wish there was a lot less tax, you know, like I am pro-markets.
		I think one thing you learn early on, at least for me, when I went to law school and I went to work at a firm and started representing big companies, I was blown away by the false and like just crap lawsuits that are filed all day long, every day.
		There are good lawsuits that need to be filed against big companies.
		The vast majority don't.
		I don't believe that companies are evil.
		I believe in markets.
		I'm a First Amendment absolutist.
		I believe in the marketplace of ideas.
		It's funny, I got a D in First Amendment law when I was at Vanderbilt Law School.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		You're making up for it.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I'm making up for it now.
		I never would have believed that I would end up as fascinated by the law and studying it now.
		When I was 22, it was the third year, 25 I guess, the third year of my final semester, I didn't buy books and I didn't go to class.
		I was ready to just take the bar exam and be out.
		And so I got a D on that First Amendment exam.
		But I wish now I could go back in time and more seriously study it because I've ended up doing it as an adult.
		But I wish I had gotten that found date.
		I wish I had paid more attention when I was 25.
		So kids out there, pay more attention in class.
		Even if you're thinking, like, I'm never going to use this because who makes a living talking about the First Amendment?
		Somehow, probably, if anybody at Vanderbilt Law School, I bet I spend more time talking about it than anybody does.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's funny, right before we started, I said to you that I went to SUNY Binghamton, and we didn't have a great athletic program or anything, which I would have been very into, so I really just smoked pot and played video games for four years.
		I was a poli-sci major, so I guess I parlayed that into something.
		But yeah, I go to these schools now, and I was at Clemson last week, I was at Harvard two weeks ago, and I go to all these schools, and I meet all these kids who are so in the thick of it, figuring out what they think and talking about all this stuff, and I'm like, man, you have such a leg up on the world.
		It's so great, it's inspiring.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm impressed by the number of college kids that are like, there's a lot of bullshit going on right now.
		And they're really kind of steeped in it, because they are on a college campus right now, and they see this, what I call, it's like a modern-day royalty.
		Because you'll hear, back in the day, you would hear if you were in England, somebody would say, I'm the third Earl Dorchester.
		They run all the different titles as a way to legitimize whatever their opinion is.
		Nowadays, on college campus, somebody's like, I'm a black, lesbian, transgender, Before they even say their opinion.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		You gotta have a limp, too.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		As a black, lesbian, transgender, male, female, like whatever you want to say, before they get to their opinion.
		I'm like, why do I care about the prelude?
		Is your argument good or is it bad?
		And we were talking about this off-air, too.
		When you get attacked by an accusation of something that you know you're not, to me, I just kind of smile because it means I won the argument.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So when you saw that piece, it was political, right?
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So when you saw that piece, as I said, I saw the headline, I knew I didn't even have to read it, and I could already see a little bit of traction picking up.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		And again, as you said earlier, it's great when you have people defending you.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Because it allows you to breathe, it allows you to move on.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		We could spend all day long It's funny, Daily Beast did like a 5,000 word piece on me, and I talked to them, and then Politico did a 5,000 word piece, and I talked to them.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		What was the title?
unidentified		Or what did they exactly say that you were the... Alt-rights hero, or something like that.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Now again, we just laid out some of your liberal or libertarian cred.
		I have yet to hear you.
		I assume at some point you're going to burst out with some sort of racist diatribe.
		But I mean, again, it's important to frame it that way because I see this.
		I mean, I've seen it happen to me.
		I've had several articles written in the same.
		I'm further to the extreme right than Breitbart.
		I mean, just abject drivel.
		And that's why we lay out what we say and then it's like, they don't care, they don't care.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		People don't listen, they don't care, they already have their preconceived notions and so... I mean the writers, I'm talking about the writers and the editors in this case.
		Yeah, they came and they spent, you know, like the guy came and he spent the day with me.
		I start every morning for people who don't know at 4 a.m.
		I get up really early because I've got an early morning sports talk show that I do from 6 to 9 a.m.
		Eastern and then I do a show also on Periscope and Facebook Live at Three o'clock Eastern every day.
		And then I write in between that time.
		I do all this, I'm fortunate, I own 100% of my company.
		Like you, the business side of things allows me to be as outspoken as I am in a way, frankly, that I wouldn't be if I was reliant upon being an employee of a major media company.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Do you find that you're able to put these principles that you talk about into practice for your business too?
		Because that's one of the things that's very cool for me.
		The things that I believe in, Yes.
		When I talk about low taxes and treating people right and all of those things, those are the ways that I operate my business.
		So it makes the views that I talk about stronger, actually.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I don't think there's anybody that I've ever worked with who would come out and say a negative word about me.
		My wife says that I'm unique in that people attacking me doesn't bother me.
		It's almost like if you watch football, defensive backs get burned, give up a touchdown pass, the next drive they're right back up on the line of scrimmage talking trash.
		And you have to have no memory to play that position.
		I don't hold grudges.
		I just let things go.
		I'm very karmic in that way.
		I don't think you can do my job if you sit around and worry.
		My wife says, you can get 10 things negative said about you and you remember the positive.
		I do think there's a little bit of truth to that.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I always said, if people who know me Wait, I think you might have just said that backwards, or we do this very differently.
		Does she say that you can say 10 things negative and you remember the positive, or the other way around?
		Because for me, it's like, I get 10 positives, but the only one I remember is negative.
		No, it's the opposite.
		Oh, okay.
		Wow, so you are doing something, right?
		I'm gonna work on that.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't really register.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I almost feel like when I do the radio show, it's my way of sitting down and getting to have therapy without actually having to pay for therapy.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		That's incredible, and that's very the reverse of what a lot of public people are, because I have so many people that come on and talk about that.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		We forget all the good stuff, and it's just the bad stuff.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I don't necessarily marinate it.
		It's almost like it's just noise.
		There's nothing that somebody's going to say to me that's going to change my opinion about something.
		And that's one of the funniest things about Twitter is I'll make an argument and then somebody will be like, oh, did you think about X, Y, or Z?
		And yeah, I did.
		With my wife, it used to be an issue because she's really smart, obviously, too, and I would talk about her with an opinion and I'd ask her opinion and I might not take her advice.
		And she would say, why did you ask me my opinion and then not take it?
		It's because I want to talk to as many smart people as I can, make sure that I've considered every angle.
		There's a great line from another Tennessean who used to say, Davy Crockett used to say, be sure you're right, then go ahead.
		It's actually pretty good advice, right?
		If you think through everything in a rigorous manner, by the time I go public with my opinion, I've kind of thought through it.
		I think that in general, there are very few people who actually look at the facts and apply them to a set of principles.
		I defended Jemele Hill.
		I said she shouldn't get suspended.
		Same principle that I applied when I said with Kurt Schilling, he shouldn't get suspended.
		Most people decide whether or not they like speech based on whether they agree with it.
		Colin Kaepernick, another example.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		It's the easiest thing to do.
unidentified		We're all for free speech and then... And then somebody says something you don't like.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		But imagine Colin Kaepernick takes a knee and says that the reason he's doing it is because he opposes gay marriage.
		Nobody in San Francisco or on the left wing is going to say, have an issue at all, if the 49ers cut it.
		Right?
		That's his political speech.
		It actually makes sense because the United States flag represents gay marriage being allowed now, whereas the United States flag doesn't represent, based on the actions taken by the government, the idea that police should be able to kill minorities with impunity.
		In fact, the exact opposite, which is what I said earlier.
		Like, he's protesting something the government's already trying to take action against.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So all this said, so now these articles, Garrett, and the Politico piece, and again, people defended you and all that stuff.
		So basically, you're just saying you just gotta let it roll off your back and not do anything, right?
		I mean, a lot of people ask me about this thing, because I think that there's so many people that watch the two of us or listen to us that want to get in this fight, but they're afraid because they don't have the public profile that we have or whatever it is.
		They don't have the Twitter followers that are gonna back them up and all that.
		So I think it's an important thing to discuss how we navigate through that.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Well, so I appreciate, first of all, everybody who stood up and said that article was bullshit.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		What was disappointing to me is I brought that guy into my house.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yep, same thing.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		He spent all day with me.
		I said I start at 4 a.m.
		He spent all day with me.
		He saw exactly what I did.
		I don't worry about what I say because people who are watching and listening to this right now, I probably said 40,000 words.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		I've been very triggered the entire time, by the way.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		But I say so much that it's hard to pull one thing out and say, oh my God, Clay Travis said this.
		Now, boobs and First Amendment might change because that exposed me to an audience that didn't know I existed, but I let him talk to my producer of my radio show and my wife.
		And I think that he chose, I don't think, I know, I talked to my wife for a half hour and he takes the two most negative things that she says and turns it into like a story.
		He takes things that my producer said that were not true and he wrote about it.
		And I think for those people who don't have a public persona already, I feel worse about a situation like that.
		And I also feel like in the future as more writers are writing about me, to the extent that I even want to participate in them, I need to just pull my own phone out, hire a transcript person, and let them put every word that I said on the record and go read the transcript, as opposed to pulling out.
		Because I think, you know this, I don't think the average person does, the quotes that you choose tells more about you There are.
		than it does about the person you're trying to profile.
		So I was hopeful, Politico's a big name place.
		I thought maybe they'll do a really nuanced, intelligent portrayal about the conflict
		between sports and politics and this guy who has somehow found himself in the center of them,
		who used to be in democratic politics, now identify, I call myself a radical moderate,
		somewhere in the middle, which I wish there were more people like us,
		and I think there are a lot like us.
		There are, there are.
		But they don't get paid attention to because they're not on the fringes,
		creating a stir every day.
		And so I thought maybe this would be a really good profile.
		And I was just disappointed because it was lazy.
		It was a profile that was written with preconceived notions already in mind.
		But within two days, it's water under the bridge.
		And I think the reason is because the reason why I get involved in those is people think when they share something and say this guy's an asshole that all their friends are going to agree with him.
		What I have found is if you go on social media and you say, Clay Travis is the worst human being ever, 70% of the people who follow you may agree.
		30% of people will click on it, they'll be like, you know what, I kind of agree with a little bit of what he's saying.
		I might not be saying it publicly, but there are so many people out there who don't feel comfortable saying things, and then that 30% turns into my allies.
		The 70% who you're sharing, like if somebody already hates me, 70% of their audience is probably gonna hate me otherwise.
		But where we've grown is not by people just, it's by word of mouth of people who like us sharing it with their audience, right?
		But it's also by people who hate us sharing what I do, and then some of their people that they think, they're natural allies, they might even be talking with you at a dinner party being like, I hate Clay Travis.
		But in reality, you know, they're reading the articles, they might be sharing them with other friends who are like-minded, it's like you have to hide sometimes.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and what's so interesting is that when they do it to a guy like you, and they'll be like, ah, he's this alt-right racist whatever, then you read the whole article, you can't get a quote where it actually said any of that, and then actually they do push people more your way.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		So it really, it's sort of this, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And again, it just comes back to if you're attacking somebody instead of their ideas, you lose.
		The first person to decide, oh, Clay Travis reminds me of Nazis, that person lost the argument, right?
		And I just think that that is the default of the left now.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well I appreciate you not wearing the Nazi hat, because you came in and you were just off the plane.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, it's cyclical.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it'll flip.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Back when Bill Maher got fired, it was, if you weren't a hardcore patriot, the right is defending free speech right now, but the great thing about America is, as long as free speech is protected, there's always going to be people like you and I who may not fit particular political disciplines, and all the people out there listening and watching right now, but understand that our most important right is the right to disagree.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		That's how you end an interview.
		And I truly feel like we barely scratched the surface.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		I could sit here all day with you.
		I mean, I love what you do.
		You do great work.
		I appreciate you having me in.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		Thanks.
		Well, I feel the same way.
		And I feel like we just had to do some clean-ups.
		So next time you're in L.A., there's so many other things we can get into.
		You were talking about Disney CEO Bob Iger running for president.
		You've been talking about it for a long time, and I think you're right.
clay travis ▲ ● ▼		Everybody's catching up with it now.
dave rubin ▲ ● ▼		And a whole bunch of other stuff.
		And I know you're running to Corolla.
		I'm doing Corolla tomorrow.
		Oh, nice.
		Totally blow his mind.
		Leave a little free speech for me.

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