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June 2, 2017 - Rubin Report - Dave Rubin
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How a Black Women Became Armed & Conservative | Antonia Okafor | GUNS | Rubin Report
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antonia okafor
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unidentified
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dave rubin
One of the issues we haven't dove into too deeply around here is gun control.
The contentious, often venomous debate about guns has been part of some of the conversations we've had here on the Rubin Report, especially when talking about limited government, constitutional authority, states rights and even freedom of speech, but it rarely has been the focus of those conversations itself.
Interestingly, gun control is one of the issues that I get the most emails about, with people usually asking me my personal feelings about the second amendment and whether I believe in a right to bear arms.
You're not going to believe this, but I do think that there's a sane middle ground that we can find in the gun discussion that falls somewhere between everyone should own a bazooka and nobody should be able to have a handgun.
First off, very clearly and without reservation, I am a supporter of the Second Amendment.
The Second Amendment specifically states, quote, a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, end quote.
This is interesting wording because it guarantees the right of a citizen to protect themselves from both other citizens and the state itself by having the ability to own a gun.
The guarantee to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness which is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence isn't only for the government to ensure for you.
Actually, it's quite the reverse.
It's incumbent on you to protect your life, your liberty and your pursuit of happiness, even from the government if need be.
In many ways, this is the essence of individualism.
While the state and the government are an important facilitator of our rights, it's ultimately up to us, the individual, to make sure we are truly protected from people and governments who would take those rights away.
As I often say, however, two things can be true at once.
While having a populace that can defend itself is important, at the same time there really is little doubt to me that we have a gun problem in America.
Whether we're talking about school shootings, which happen all too often, or assassinations of police officers, as happened in Dallas last year, there can be no doubt that the gun is the weapon of choice when someone wants to indiscriminately kill as many people as possible.
I should pause and separate mass shootings from terrorism specifically, where terrorists usually use some sort of explosive to kill as many people as possible, although recently we've seen guns, knives, and even cars and trucks thrown into the mix.
And it's also important to remember that the weapon itself doesn't make the distinction between a criminal act or terrorism, it's the ideology behind the act that does that.
The fact that there are many ways to kill people, though, does bring up an interesting idea about guns.
If I had an assault rifle or any other gun, I wouldn't go into a school or a church or anywhere else and randomly kill people.
Likewise, I've got some pretty great kitchen knives right down the hallway here, and I don't go into mosques or temples and stab anyone.
This shows that the gun itself is just the tool, and the issue around gun control is much deeper.
We should be having an honest conversation about issues like mental health, the overuse and side effects of prescription drugs, the insidious nature of evil ideologies, the access to guns that mentally unstable people have, and much more.
Unfortunately, we only seem to have these conversations at the worst possible times, usually right after another shooting.
This gets the anti-gun crowd in a frenzy to take away all guns, and it gets the pro-gun crowd to think that the government is going to come to their house and take away their guns.
Don't believe me?
Well, just check how gun sales skyrocketed under President Obama, but have now dipped under President Trump.
All of these issues are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to guns.
I think that there are good people on both sides of the debate who just see a different solution, partly because they are seeing a different problem in the first place.
Some see this truly as a problem with guns themselves, while some see this as a larger societal problem with mental health, but perhaps, just perhaps, there's merit to both arguments.
Joining me today to unpack this highly charged discussion is Antonia Okafor.
Antonia is a Second Amendment advocate who spends most of her energy pushing for legislation to allow women to carry guns on college campuses.
As a young black conservative, she's found herself on the outside of what the mainstream says someone who looks like her should believe.
We'll talk about her political evolution from an Obama voter to a Trump supporter, and why she thinks that a woman's right to defend herself by herself is so important.
Without the reactionary hysteria we're usually caught up in when discussing guns, can the two of us find some common ground?
Well, there's only one way to find out.
unidentified
(upbeat music)
dave rubin
Joining me today is a second amendment advocate, the founder of Empowered,
a movement of women on college campuses to feel empowered when they use their guns for self-defense,
and a woman who is black, armed, and conservative, Antonio Okafor, welcome to The Rubin Report.
antonia okafor
Thank you, thank you for having me.
unidentified
Black, armed, and conservative.
dave rubin
Heads are exploding right now.
unidentified
Oh yeah.
dave rubin
Can you feel that rippling across the internet?
antonia okafor
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm sure that, that's why I love it.
Intentional.
dave rubin
You're a rabble rouser.
You're going right at it.
Black Army conservative.
I got that right off your website.
That's what it says.
Yes.
That really, I mean, it must make people crazy just when they just see that the amount of judgment you must get must be off the charts, right?
antonia okafor
Well, in this day and age, just to be any three of those, especially together, any combination, it makes people upset.
Of course, you know, anything makes people upset these days.
dave rubin
People are very upset at all times.
antonia okafor
But especially that.
I mean, maybe black-armed and liberal, black-armed and leftist, but black-armed and conservative, forget about it.
dave rubin
Is it conservative?
That's the one that probably people get most annoyed at.
antonia okafor
It probably is.
And I've had people tell me, well, you kind of alienate people by saying you're conservative.
I'm like, well, what am I going to say?
Lie to make it easy for you to, you know, to digest?
I mean, I'm conservative.
You know, what people know about conservatism is that there is a social conservative and then there's the fiscal conservative.
And you kind of play to that.
But yeah, I don't think in this day and age, people don't like that word.
And they assume different things when you say conservative.
dave rubin
All right, so we're gonna get to some of your conservative beliefs.
antonia okafor
Yeah, yeah.
dave rubin
And we're gonna get to some of the gun stuff.
antonia okafor
Yeah.
dave rubin
And I guess we can get to some of the black stuff, but, that too.
But, let's just, tell me a little bit about yourself.
You grew up in Dallas, you're a Texas girl.
I am.
Still live there now.
antonia okafor
Born and raised.
dave rubin
Tell me a little bit about growing up, were you always, you were always black, am I right?
antonia okafor
Yeah, I was always black.
I will say that, that hasn't changed.
dave rubin
You were trans black, or one of those things.
unidentified
Well, in this day and age again, you can change it.
antonia okafor
A blonde-haired, blue-eyed girl can tell someone that she is black.
Not only black, but Nigerian now, which I'm really upset because my parents are from Nigeria.
dave rubin
Wait, is that right?
Not only can you be this absurd thing, which is transracial, which is white people now saying that they're black, but you can actually pick a nationality Well, Rachel, I don't know how to say her last name.
unidentified
Dolizal.
antonia okafor
Yeah, Dolizal.
She chose a black Nigerian last name.
And it was funny because that same week that happened was when Black Twitter attacked me and apparently some blogs that were Nigerian-American blogs that were upset with me and called me, they said that I was a disgrace to the Nigerian name, the same time they're praising this black woman.
This white woman that decides that she's going to be a Nigerian-American, and they're sure she has more praise than I do.
That's the world we're in right now.
dave rubin
These are very upset now, but wait a minute, why were they upset at you?
Just general upsetness?
antonia okafor
Well, because I took a picture with Tomi Lahren, and how dare I?
Disgrace to the black name, but especially to the Nigerian name.
I was like, you know I'm a Nigerian, so therefore I know the only way to actually disgrace the Nigerian name is if you're not a doctor, a lawyer, or an engineer.
Other than that...
dave rubin
I'm pretty sure you're all set.
That guilt though is interesting to me because just maybe two or three months ago
when Tommy was on real time, I was in the audience that night
and I took a picture at the after party with Tommy and I had a nice chat with her
and then I took a picture with Bill and I had a nice chat with him
and I didn't see anyone on the right that was attacking me for taking a picture with Bill.
They were like, "Ah, I don't like Bill," whatever.
But I got a ton of hate from people on the left for talking to Tommy and that sort of disconnect,
like the hatred isn't even on both sides at the moment, I don't think. - No.
antonia okafor
And it's, I mean, yeah, how many times?
I mean, and the only reason why they knew about that is because Tommy retweeted my picture with her
and she had me on her show to talk about Empowered and I was really grateful for that.
But it's really not, the sad part is just, okay, regardless if you believe her or agree with her or not, I mean, just because you're literally on a show with someone, which that's usually the premise is that you bring people of different viewpoints and perspectives and you talk about it and that's interesting TV, that that's not tolerated anymore to be associating with someone.
I mean, I just think as a black person, though, the reverse racism—which is not even reverse racism, let's just call it what it is, it's racism—the fact that she's a blonde-haired, blue-eyed girl and I'm a black woman, therefore we shouldn't associate, especially because she doesn't have the same ideology as a black person should have, right?
unidentified
Should have.
antonia okafor
Should have, yes, that I should have.
dave rubin
Right, which in an odd way, that is prejudice in itself.
unidentified
Absolutely.
dave rubin
Isn't that prejudging?
I'm only gonna hear what you tell me over the next hour.
That's only the way I'm gonna judge you, not by any other trait.
antonia okafor
Absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, Martin Luther King, I really believe, would be rolling over in his grave right now.
The fact that his speech, talking about the content of your character, not the color of your skin, has been flipped around these days to really be, to verify their agenda, the people on the radical left's agenda, and perpetuate what narrative they have, which is absolutely the opposite of what he wanted for this country and the future of his children, like he said.
unidentified
Yeah.
dave rubin
All right, so let's back up for a second.
So just tell me a little bit about growing up.
Was your family conservative?
Were there black conservatives 20 years ago?
antonia okafor
Yeah, you know what?
Well, I'm going to drop some knowledge.
There are a lot of, if anything, I would say the majority of black people are conservative.
This is a radical notion for me to say that, but I really believe it.
I believe my parents are very conservative.
I mean, I grew up with their values, and their values are Stay out of my business.
I want to have a small business because this is how I'm able to make a living here in America.
I believe in the American Dream.
Education is how you're going to prosper.
You are responsible for your own path in life and you make that decision.
All those, I mean, even if you go on the social side, being pro-life, etc., what have you, all of those notions and values I received from my family.
But yet, they voted for Hillary and Bernie last time.
So what do you make of that?
dave rubin
I've discussed this concept with a couple people.
antonia okafor
Yeah, yeah.
dave rubin
What's the disconnect there then?
antonia okafor
You know, what I see, to be honest, completely, is that my mom will talk about the values that she has,
but in the end she'll say, "Oh, but Republicans are racist.
Oh, but conservatives are racist.
It's become this effective tool to really divide people, even if they have the same values, to say, don't go on that side because those people don't like you.
They don't like you.
In fact, they not only don't like you, they hate you because of your skin color, because of your sexual orientation, because of who you are as a person, and not the values that you have.
And it's sad because I have to deal with that every day with my family.
dave rubin
That's interesting.
So you're dealing with that, but how much actual racism are you dealing with from on the right?
Because, for example, just yesterday you were at, you shot a video with PragerU that'll be out, I think, in a couple weeks.
I did something with PragerU.
I got a lot of hate from people on the left saying, how could you work with right-wing Prager and blah, blah, blah, and all the usual stuff.
You may now get it from the black community saying, how could you work with someone on the right, even though they know you're conservative generally.
But how much actual racism do you experience from the right?
antonia okafor
I don't receive—you know, I'll be honest.
There have been the very—those people who will call Michelle Obama—you know, seriously, this has happened—will call Michelle Obama an ape or something like that.
That is—I mean, regardless—and I don't know if they're really conservative or not.
I mean, they'll act like they are, but they might have voted Democrat last time.
Really, I see it as a people thing and not by ideology, especially conservatism.
Conservatism is an ideology, and you need to know your stuff to know if you really are conservative.
I mean, we see this in this day of populism and Trump.
Conservatism does not mean Republican.
It does not mean libertarianism sometimes.
So, of course you see that.
I'm not going to say there's not racism out there on either side.
But, yeah, I've always felt comfortable And that's the thing, is that most people are not going to get out their little bubble and talk to people that don't look like them, even more so not think like them.
That's so rare these days, and that's sad.
In 2017, that we're going backwards.
That's sad.
dave rubin
I mean, we do feel like we're going backwards, and it's interesting.
I've mentioned this before, but when I get invited to colleges, I'm only invited now by the young Republicans, the libertarians of tomorrow, the freedom people, the liberty this, liberty that, even though by most accounts, gay married, gay choice, I'm against the death penalty, I'm for having some sort of safety net, all of these things, and yet I don't get invited by anyone on the left.
So it's like, where is the tolerance again?
antonia okafor
Exactly, and I'm still waiting.
I would love to have someone, like, you know what, we love your views on everything else except for the guns, but, you know, come out, but it's usually the individual.
dave rubin
Or to play their own games with them.
It would show tolerance if a group on the left was like, you know, we're just gonna hear a different view from a black woman.
You know what I mean?
Just to play their little identity politics thing.
antonia okafor
Exactly, the identity politics, which I was sick of.
I voted for Obama twice, in 2008 and 2012.
By 2012, I really started to get the identity politics part of it, the victimhood mentality part of it, and I really wanted a difference because I realized there was something different out there.
For me, that was Rand Paul.
And I got really involved quickly with the Rand Paul campaign.
And because criminal justice reform is still something very important to me, my father
went to prison when I was five years old for mandatory minimums in a drug crime.
And I'm different from most conservatives in that I push for criminal justice reform.
And I'm vocal when anybody on the Republican side tries to squelch any type of reform there.
And unfortunately, we're kind of seeing that a little bit more with Jeff Sessions and his mandatory minimum, bringing that back again.
dave rubin
And it should be something to reform the prison system and make it more functional and more economically viable.
antonia okafor
Exactly.
dave rubin
Those all should be Republican.
antonia okafor
Absolutely.
Or conservative ideas.
Yeah, exactly.
Fiscal conservative, even, if you're just going to look at that.
dave rubin
Even if you don't care about people, just on the money end.
unidentified
Exactly.
antonia okafor
Don't talk about the fact that you don't really care about the people, but on the money!
Let's talk about the money as a business person.
You're saving so much!
So that's why, I mean, look to Rick Perry in Texas, who, you know, do I think that he's this big pro-criminal justice reform advocate?
No, I mean, I think he's a businessman.
He brought a lot of business back to Texas, but he also brought a lot of savings when it came to the prison reform stuff that he did there.
dave rubin
Does that kind of show that it doesn't matter, sort of, necessarily what intentions are all the time?
You know what I mean?
Like, he maybe doesn't care at the personal side, which would sort of be upsetting at some level, but if he's doing the right thing because he's doing something for fiscal reasons, that's still, at the end of the day, It's a win-win.
antonia okafor
But there's still people, unfortunately, well, to be honest, a minority, but a vocal minority within the Republican Party.
You know, I changed from being a Democrat to a Republican, and part of that was because I realized I am a conservative.
And that's kind of why I went more on the Rand Paul side, because he is very, I would say, and he has said before, he's a fiscal conservative first.
And that's what I saw as a young person in college, realizing that here I voted for this man, Obama, and he has Obamacare, and that's on the backs of me and my generation.
And then I see that the economy really still sucks, unlike what NPR says.
NPR kept telling me this whole time, the four years I was in college, that the economy was great.
It didn't.
It wasn't.
dave rubin
Are you saying that NPR might not be your candidate?
antonia okafor
Oh, man.
dave rubin
Are you saying they might be politically biased?
antonia okafor
Yeah, I'm on the community advisory board, so I have to be careful.
So just cut that out.
But no, I'm going to be honest, and that's what I heard all the time, is that Obama did so much for not only young people, but for black people.
And I didn't see the stats for that.
That wasn't proven.
And so that's when I started to realize the fiscal side, especially, I was very passionate about.
Why are we $20 trillion in debt?
And that is okay.
We just have these blinders on, and it's going to be in the backs of me and my kids, and people are not staying up for students and for millennials.
And that's kind of why I got more into the Campus Carry movement as well, because that's another movement where students kind of felt like they were second-class citizens for a long time.
dave rubin
Yeah, so we're gonna dive deep into that in a little bit.
Yeah, definitely.
antonia okafor
You know, I'm gonna try to get into guns as much as possible.
dave rubin
That's your real problem.
You are packing right now.
unidentified
There's a gun in there somewhere.
Oh yeah, L.A.
antonia okafor
I was thinking that's the best place.
unidentified
That was the best place not to get in trouble.
antonia okafor
Yeah.
dave rubin
Not packing, okay, fair enough.
So I'm curious, what makes you define yourself or use the label conservative as opposed to libertarian?
Because a lot of the stuff, and we were talking about Rand Paul, it sounds like real libertarian stuff.
Do you see a difference or is it just splitting hairs?
antonia okafor
You know, I've taken the tests and everything.
I'm still libertarian.
That's ideology-wise I am.
I just feel like I'm in this weird, especially in this age of Trump or populism or whatever, where people are trying to figure out, well, And I saw, especially during the election, you know, with Austin Peterson and stuff like that, were these conservatives who were the Republican Party, but they were more conservatarian and they wanted a place, they wanted a home base, but they didn't really find it in either.
And so I say conservative because literally, I mean, libertarianism As long as you don't believe that it's force that makes
that value.
You can be a liberal or you can be conservative, but the difference is does one have force
or not.
Right.
And so I think that's why I consider myself a small L libertarian, but really I'm conservative
when it comes to fiscal conservatism and quite a bit social conservatism, I feel as well.
dave rubin
So, like, what kind of social conservatism?
antonia okafor
Probably the most is my pro-life stance.
You know, I've always been pro-life, even when I was a Democrat.
And I think that's what I was saying, is that a lot of people in minority communities, Hispanic, black, they're conservative in those values, in those traditional values, but they still, just something about the Republican Party doesn't fit well.
And they don't know about the Libertarian Party yet.
dave rubin
So when you hear, so for example, as someone that's pro-life, when you hear the media will say, well you know, if we take away funding from Planned Parenthood or we have any other rules or regulations around abortion or whatever it is, that that's gonna hurt minority communities most, you don't even think that that notion is coming from the communities themselves.
antonia okafor
Oh, no.
They just—let me tell you a story.
dave rubin
Bring it.
antonia okafor
That's what we're here for.
So, 2012, I go to this Women for Obama luncheon.
And I'm there.
I'm excited.
Yeah, 2012, another four years for Obama.
And the head girl—well, there was a small business coalition behind me.
It was mostly African-American women.
And they literally asked the head person there that day.
So I'm not hearing much about the African-American community.
Are you guys going to be doing any—are there any plans for you guys to be reaching out
to them?
And the woman literally tells them that, "Well, we already got 95 percent of the vote last
time.
We don't really need to focus on them."
dave rubin
Wow.
unidentified
There's sort of a refreshing candor there, even though— Yeah, but I'm pretty sure she didn't know what she was
antonia okafor
saying.
And all four of us look at each other, I remember, and we're just like, "What?
Yeah.
I'm like, did she just say that?
Did she know what she just said?
And it was then I started to think, you know what?
They think they have it in the bag.
I mean, yeah.
dave rubin
So that was really your light bulb moment?
antonia okafor
That was like, wow.
I've been played this whole time.
We've been played this whole time.
You're right.
Ninety-five percent of us are voting the same way versus any other group that doesn't.
And, I mean, even the Hispanic community tends to—you know, they're buried every election.
We don't know exactly.
But, yeah, they're going to think they have it in the bag every time.
And they take those people for granted.
And that's when I started to realize, is he really doing stuff for the black community?
Has poverty levels gone down since then?
Has welfare gone down since then?
Are we more dependent on the government since he's been president?
Yeah, we have shown that, and I continue to do my research.
And that's the thing is, a lot of people will not do their research, and don't know your history.
They don't know, you know, with, I'll talk about later, but you know, with black people and guns, that they've used that to protect themselves against gun control groups like the KKK, or their history has been that a lot of them have been conservative, or Planned Parenthood, that that started as a way to basically to have a genocide of all minorities in the first place.
A lot of people are not gonna do their research on that.
And so that's why I feel this, I don't wanna say a burden, but as a mission to use that, to use my knowledge
of that history and bring it out there and say, this is actually your history and it's contradictory
to what they're telling you right now.
dave rubin
Yeah, and it's so interesting to get people to think about this stuff because when one
of the police shootings happened in Florida and everybody was talking about,
well, now we have to get rid of Stand Your Ground.
And even though I think we differ a little bit on guns and we can get to that, and that's great,
that I remember thinking, wait a minute.
You're taking away stand your ground, which means that a black person who's being attacked might be able to have a gun and protect himself, and yet they always come in with more ideas to actually take the power away from the people, which is scary.
antonia okafor
Yeah, and they'll always use that one case in Florida of that woman.
She was basically, she kind of was a victim of domestic abuse with her husband.
Her husband was abusive, and remember, she shot in the air as a warning shot, and she got, Mandatory minimums of what, 10 years or so?
Actually, I think more than that.
And I think they dropped it later on, but they always go back to that case.
See, black people, I mean, that's why guns are not for black people, because all this racism is going to do the opposite.
Instead of standing your ground, you're not going to be able to actually protect yourself without going to jail, or having a gun without going to jail, or being prosecuted some way.
So, they'll use that, but they won't use the many times that other people have used it for self-defense and have not had that case happen to them.
I mean, it's not about race.
It's really about poor laws, about mandatory minimums.
Let's talk about that.
Let's talk about the criminal justice reform system.
Let's stop making it about race every single time and then losing the actual policies and issues that are important, which can actually change everyone's outcome when it comes to that.
dave rubin
So when you had that light bulb moment, and you voted for Obama twice and all this stuff, and then you realize, wow, they're playing me.
How did you start talking about this stuff?
Because I get a ton of people emailing me and tweeting me and messaging me one way or another talking about that.
They've sort of had a wake up to a lot of the things that I think people like us are discussing, but they're afraid to talk about it.
You know what I mean?
If you're going against whatever your community might be or whatever your family might have believed or any of that stuff, it's hard to do that, right?
How did you start putting that into motion?
antonia okafor
Oh man, I think God just gave me a little bit of I don't care.
And blue leaves too, a little of both.
So it will come up, and I remember it.
For example, my sister just graduated a couple weeks ago, and so all my family came in, and relatives everywhere, and they're from Nigeria and everything.
And my uncle from Nigeria had just come, and he's a priest, and my mom shows him my NRA video, the video that I did when I spoke at the NRA convention, and he goes, you voted for Trump?
And I'm just like, oh crap, you don't know about that.
Here we go.
Here we go again.
I thought I dealt with that right after he won.
So it's like this continuous loop of, I'm never going to get away from this.
This is going to be something that's going to be a contentious issue.
But I'm not afraid of that.
I'm not afraid of that because I used to beat him and I know what it is to think that way.
It makes it more important for me to be that mediator and to say, look, they're not all racist.
It's like what you're watching on MSNBC and all these great shows that like to say what the right looks like.
dave rubin
Very liberal use of the word great.
antonia okafor
Yeah, great.
So informative and newsworthy.
Oh, yeah.
So you can cut, you can add that part too if you want to use it for other snippets.
When I want to look really liberal one day.
dave rubin
I've never had a guest actually say that's the moment to put in the prologue.
antonia okafor
Well, who knows?
Who knows?
It would bring some more people.
But no, I'd like to say that those shows are not giving them this false The idea of what it means to be a conservative, to be a libertarian, I mean, and that's the thing, is that they think, libertarians sometimes think that they, oh, we're good, no one, no one, everybody thinks that the racists are on the conservative side.
No, they think libertarians are also the same way, and they kind of put them in the same bubble, in the same, you know, pot, if you will.
But, and I'm also there to say, no, Rand Paul is great.
In fact, look what he's doing.
He's talking about criminal justice reform.
Or libertarians in general.
They're talking about criminal justice reform, especially right now.
I mean, if you're going to go somewhere, go there.
Look at what they're doing and notice that you have more in common than you think.
Versus the other side that just tells you that the only reason why you should stay here is because the other side is this boogeyman and you will not be accepted.
dave rubin
So when you've used some of the facts, some of the facts on this stuff, like for example, when I've had Larry Elder here and he's talked about that the cities that have the biggest inner city problem with violence and crime and all this stuff, where the black community is really struggling, that the cities usually have Democratic mayors for decades.
Atlanta and Chicago and Ferguson and all of these places.
And then during the election, I kept seeing people are blaming Trump for racism.
And it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
He does nothing to do with what's happened for 50 years in Atlanta or all the killings in Chicago.
Does he say some crazy things?
Absolutely.
But that disconnect, how are you able to, when you've been able to change minds, how do you do it?
antonia okafor
Yeah, and I love it because When I've been able to change minds, it's because of one policy issue.
If it's not just, you know, millennials right now, they'll talk about how we don't really want to be a part of a party, we just want to have it issue by issue, like we care about the issues.
Same thing, I think, with the minority community, is that if you can get them on one thing that you think you guys can both have in common, has really nothing to do with politics, I think that is the gateway to being able to get them to change their mind on other issues.
But some, most people don't want that.
Most people just want you to agree with them completely or I'm not talking to you anymore.
I'm like, I'm blocking you on Twitter and Facebook.
That's it.
Never again.
I can't reach this person.
You have to have the patience.
And I have, and I'm not Wonder Woman and I'm not, you know, it's just because my family, it's so personal to me and I know what I like framing it around that because I think a lot of people do feel that.
that important to me.
Otherwise, I could just leave.
I could just say, I'm not gonna talk to you again.
I'm not gonna do that to my family.
dave rubin
I like framing it around that because I think a lot of people do feel that.
Growing up, my family was always arguing about politics and I'd have uncles that would disagree with my mom
and my dad would be arguing with his sister and this.
But we were all family at the end.
We would argue and argue and argue for hours at the table during holidays, and then we were all okay.
That seems to be disappearing these days.
And that's risky.
antonia okafor
Exactly.
I mean, to have dinner and having conversations around the table, period, with your family these days is something that you don't see.
I mean, I can just move across the country and not see my family if we have this argument, then why would I care, really?
I mean, yes, they're family, but...
I can just talk to him on Skype and we can be good.
We don't have to talk about Trump or libertarianism or anything like that.
dave rubin
Yeah, so when I've had people like Larry Eldron and a couple other people, when they've talked about the breakdown of the black family, This seems like it's sort of very much in line with what you're talking about, right?
unidentified
Absolutely.
dave rubin
There's some disconnect there where they're replacing the family with the state.
antonia okafor
Absolutely, and that's why you're seeing it, particularly in minority communities.
I would even say a step further, particularly in black families, because you're not, I mean, over 40% of the households that we grow up in, I mean, I didn't grow up with a father growing up, and seeing a mother is so, It's really what the example is.
Not the example in a good way, but that's what we see these days, particularly in the black family.
So, if your family is broken and you can't see that family unit as something to trust and to want to build upon and want to, you know, continue to develop, then why would that be an important thing to you?
Especially if you think differently.
I mean, how many times I'm just like, oh, whatever, you're never going to get it.
You vote for Bernie?
unidentified
What?
antonia okafor
Okay, I'm getting out of here.
I can't deal with this anymore but I love them and I want to develop my family and my relationships with them so I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna deal with it every day.
dave rubin
How much do you think the media also has sort of tripped up the black community?
I hate using phrases like that.
Because it's so broad.
So for example, with Oscars So White, and we have to have this many black people on this, or this many, of any minority, whatever it is, that it's really taking your eyes off the prize.
The prize being work hard, we don't have to all be in Hollywood, and we don't have to get a certain amount of Oscars to prove acceptance.
Where the Asian community, for example, has worked very hard, focused on education and all of those things, and then we see that they succeed economically, In all sorts of other ways that you can, you know, sort of measure these metrics.
Yeah.
Do you think the media is sort of intentionally doing that with the black community?
antonia okafor
Yeah.
And they've done a good job of it for a long time.
And that's I remember specifically when I said, OK, I'm going to identify I'm going to come out of the closet.
I'm going to be I'm going to say I'm conservative.
I might even I'm going to vote Republican.
Who knows?
I'm sure it's going to be Rand Paul who's going to be the Republican nominee.
This is 2012.
unidentified
Yeah, I want to talk a little about Iran in a second.
antonia okafor
Or whoever it's going to be, and thinking, I'm going to do this despite the image, the current image that Republicans and conservatives, libertarians have.
Because I know the effective messaging that the other side has done so well that people literally can just gloss over the issues and the values and things that actually affect and are important to them and they will discount it because someone's racist, because someone said they're racist, or they're sexist or misogynist.
Period.
The fact that we're in that state In America, where that really legitimately keeps smart people from looking at the issues is very dangerous.
And I think it's important that people like me have come from the left who have seen that and can call out that BS and say, look, I was a part of that.
And I finally woke up to the fact that There are so many bigger things that are affecting me that I'm not paying attention to, a lot of people are not paying attention to, because they literally think this other side is the boogeyman.
And here we are, we have more debt and we have more, you know, people dying of poverty and becoming socialists and thinking that's okay because they literally think the other person hates them as a person.
They're doing a good job about that.
They're doing a great job, but it's up to me and people like me to be able to tell those people on the other side that that's wrong and bring attention to that.
dave rubin
Yeah, it's nice to hear because we have, even though we come from very different places, we have sort of similar journeys politically where we're both trying to wake up.
I think these are good people.
A lot of these people are good people.
Yes, I think that a lot of the leaders, say, of the progressive movement are not good, but I think a lot of the people are good and you just got to wake them up with some ideas.
antonia okafor
Absolutely, and I think that's why it's important that they do allow people like us who think a little bit differently to come and to talk to those people, because I think there are a lot of people who are—well, first of all, I think a lot of people don't care, to be honest.
I think they're apathetic regardless.
They're just going to get their information from the people that they trust and they think are experts when they might not be.
Same thing on college campuses.
We look at professors and academics because we think that they should know everything.
And we take their word as God, you know?
We have to wake up those people, as well, to show, hey, you should be criticizing everyone and everything that you hear.
Stop being forced by this media and this information.
Be strict about what type of information that you're taking in.
dave rubin
Alright, so we're going to get to guns in one second, but you've mentioned Rand Paul a couple times.
I really like Rand Paul.
When I was watching the Republican debates, he struck me as pretty much the only sane guy out there.
But my problem with him was that it was as if he was on a stage that he shouldn't have been on.
That the platform itself, and when he was talking about fiscal responsibility
or reigning in the military, or some of these other libertarian things
that you've mentioned, that it was like, he would say it,
it would kind of make sense, but then nobody would even respond to it
because it was like, yeah, yeah, it's that crazy libertarian guy.
Ultimately, are you sort of disappointed?
Well, I assume you're disappointed that he didn't get the nomination, perhaps, or that it at least didn't go further.
But are you disappointed that he hasn't just come out and said, I'm a libertarian, I'm gonna run as a libertarian, even for Senate, and really get that movement to get going?
antonia okafor
Man, and that's the constant debate, always, is that people are upset at him because he's not libertarian, he doesn't claim to be.
I mean, also, his dad didn't, too, afterwards.
But for me, though, especially coming from that side, and, like, Rand Paul was the—I want to say, like, he was a transition.
Like, he was the one that made me start looking at, wow, OK, maybe there are things to these values that they're talking about.
I'm not going to just look at everything else.
Because for me, I felt like he did the work that most people should be doing, is going
into minority communities and talking about those issues.
I was very appreciative that he did that first.
You know, I think—you know, I'm a small L libertarian at this point.
It depends on the nominee next time.
I'll probably get hate for that one.
But, you know, I mean, I was, yeah, if Austin Pearson was a nominee, I probably would have gone more that way for several reasons.
But I think Rand Paul and I think I like Austin.
dave rubin
I've had him here.
Get this guy to run as a Libertarian.
I asked him.
Now it sounds like maybe something in Utah, like a smaller position.
antonia okafor
That's why I'm here.
The new Senate type thing.
We'll see Austin.
He's like, give it away.
I'm pretty sure he's not secretive about that.
But that issue is that people are wondering, is it better to just be a Libertarian in the Republican Party or just go all out Libertarian Party?
I'm going to say what I've seen that has actually worked is kind of like what happened with the health care reform bill just a couple months ago, where it was a Freedom Caucus and the people like Thomas Massey and Justin Amash, the small L libertarians in the Republican Party who were actually able to convince people to stop it.
I think in instances like that, they were more effective.
If they weren't there, that first bill would have been already passed.
dave rubin
Yeah, so it's really just a tactics thing, right?
unidentified
Exactly.
dave rubin
Like, at one level, you could be like, yeah, we need this libertarian star to come out and really fix the party and, like, be the leader that Gary Johnson wasn't.
On the other hand, I totally hear what you're saying, like, maybe it makes more sense to maneuver from the inside of the existing system.
And I guess that's just, like, a debate.
Or we could have both!
antonia okafor
But you could have both though.
And that's the thing is that, I can't remember when, during a debate and he said, and one of the people asked him, well do you think the Libertarian Party, the small Libertarianism is going to continue in the Republican Party?
And he said, This was a moderator for a debate and he said and Rand Paul
said well I think it's gonna stay in the Paul family that kind of rubbed
me the wrong way because I'm like I don't think you guys are the end-all be-all
And I hope that you guys don't think that is gonna be the case because we're the thing about the libertarian
Liberty movement is that it's young but there's also a lot of young bright stars in it
Um, so--
So many great people, I mean, with Young Americans for Liberty, and even the people who followed Rand and even Ron Paul.
There are so many people coming up, and so in the next 10 to 15 years, who knows, we'll
finally probably have those people of the best worlds who can stick to the issues and
be principled, but who can also carry a great conversation and get people to like them and
be honest and someone that they want to be president.
So I don't think we're down and out yet, even with the Libertarian Party.
I think there's a lot of good things to come in the future.
We just have to learn from our mistakes from the past.
dave rubin
Are you ready to talk guns?
antonia okafor
Oh, yeah.
dave rubin
You're itching to talk guns, the second you walked in here today.
Why not?
Guns and guns and guns.
All right, so you're not talking at the moment, but you're obviously a huge defender of the Second Amendment.
So was the gun piece of your political evolution, was that, how much was that the whole thing that you realized that you needed to be able to defend yourself and you wanted your community to be able to do that and all that?
antonia okafor
It was a big part, but definitely still the fiscal side was the transition part, and that's why I went to Rand at first.
But no, the guns became an issue for me, particularly because it was so personal for me, being on a college campus.
I was a graduate student in 2015, and the campus carry issue came about again.
I was flabbergasted that it was going for a third time in Texas, of all states, and it was looking that it might not pass again.
dave rubin
Can you just explain what Campus Carry is?
antonia okafor
Yeah, so Campus Carry is concealed carry on college campuses.
So basically, for example, Texas, you're allowed to concealed carry if you're over the age of 21, if you pass a mental health and a criminal background check, if you go through all the processes you're supposed to do, then you're able to have a gun Does each college have their own policy on that?
So Campus Carry is bringing that right, really, bringing that permit holder,
enabling them to be able to use that same thing in a college campus, on a college campus.
And so basically that's what it is.
dave rubin
Does each college have their own policy on that?
So is that what the fight is?
antonia okafor
So the fight is state by state.
So that's how it's, you know, with Campus Carry.
So in Texas, what they passed, the bill was that every public university, and now community college, starting August 1st of this year, has to have some type of Conceal Carry on campus legislation.
The difference they did on that one last minute, though, was that they added an amendment saying
that every college gets to put policies of where gun-free zones within that college would
be.
And so, a lot of my work when I joined Students for Conceal Carry, when I was with them, was
basically looking at every college that was trying to—because they were obviously anti-campus
carry—and trying to null and void the whole bill in general, and making sure that they
weren't putting out these outrageous policies where someone like me wouldn't be able—or
wouldn't even want to carry on campus because it would be so hard to.
dave rubin
Right, so basically they gave them, the law was written in a way that gave them so much leeway that they could create every gun-free zone everywhere, and you'd have to walk like you were doing a maze.
antonia okafor
Exactly and that was the intention and we fought against that and so right now how it is right now a lot of people are able to carry on campus in Texas and Georgia just got the same thing just a couple weeks ago.
dave rubin
The concept of gun-free zones I find really interesting, because I see people on the left constantly screaming, we need more gun-free zones, gun-free zones.
Now, the idea of that sounds fine on the surface level, but only the bad guys are going to break the law to bring the gun there, and then you might need a gun to take them out.
I mean, did I just blow your mind with that?
That was pretty wild.
antonia okafor
Oh yeah, I know.
Come on, those criminals, they have hearts too, okay?
They could change their minds.
A really good sign could change their minds.
dave rubin
Yeah, like they're looking through the penal code, like, wait, wait, can I do it at the, no, no, no, gun-free zone, sorry, can't do it over there.
But really, so that kind of thing, it sounds so idiotic.
antonia okafor
It does.
dave rubin
Regardless of what you feel about guns in general, just the, whether, where you want legalization or states' rights or any of that, like the very concept of this sounds just nuts.
antonia okafor
Well, but again, the messaging is that there are still people who believe it.
And the thing about campus carry, too, is what I learned with concealed carry on campus is that it wasn't just the left, either.
The ones who are just blatantly, I'm anti-gun, I don't want guns anywhere.
I say that I don't like the Australian gun ban, but I really kind of do, type people.
It's really...
I mean, the people that I had to convince the most were the people on the fence, or what we had to convince the most with Students Against Hillary when I was with them, is that those Republicans—right?—and not just the Republican students or the constituents, but even the Republican congressmen and women who would say that, yeah, I'm pro-Second Amendment and guns should be for all people.
But on college campuses, that's, I don't know, I don't know students.
It was something about students on campus that, for some reason, it was okay to have gun-free zones.
Because, maybe because it was an extension of what we think about students right now, we're seeing UC Berkeley students, and we're like, is that the type of people we want with guns?
Right.
unidentified
No.
antonia okafor
I don't agree with that.
Yeah, exactly.
So we had to convince those type of people the most, particularly women.
And so that's where I came in, when I was able to talk to those women and say, hey, you know what?
The reason why I started fighting for Campus Carry is because I want the choice to be able to protect myself.
From someone who wants to harm me.
Look, I understand there are physical differences, and regardless if there's physical differences or not, that person has a gun, I don't, who's winning?
And so, talking to women one-on-one about that, that's when you really—that's when I was really able to get people to start understanding it and getting it, because a lot more people understand the self-defense aspect of it versus, oh, the Second Amendment guarantees you that right type of thing.
That's a good argument as well.
dave rubin
Yeah, is this an area where you're able to use a little of their messaging against them?
Because if you listen to a lot of the messaging that's going on on college campuses, there's rape culture, it's constant rape culture, that's what they're saying, and all these guys are just, especially the white guys, the frat guys are coming to rape all the women, which we know there's no rape culture here, of a real rape culture, of course rape happens, of course.
antonia okafor
But are you able to use that messaging against them and go, ladies, if you believe that, Absolutely, and that's why I started My Organization Empowered because no one was really talking about that on our side.
I know, granted, Canvas Carry is a fairly new concept in the last 10-15 years, but to go a step further of those women who I would have to try and convince the most and saying, you know what?
And men, too.
When I talk to men, and they would be at me and say, how dare you try to bring guns on campus?
You know, women, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then I would say, well, don't you actually want that woman to be able to protect themself from that?
And then they would think, oh.
dave rubin
I mean, they have that voice.
antonia okafor
Several times, yes, several times.
And maybe because I'm a woman, I'm telling them about it, and also I'm a black woman, because they'll use the race card on that one as well, to say, actually, as a black person, I want to protect myself from that bigot, in that scenario you're talking about.
Keep me defenseless, I can't protect myself in that scenario.
Also, as a woman, I want that option to protect myself because you're also keeping me defenseless in that scenario.
So talking to these girls on campus, sorry women on campus, and telling them that if you so choose to have this as your tool for self-defense, you should have that right to it.
They get it then, regardless of what ideology and politics or who they voted for before that.
Liberal women, you know, libertarian, classical liberal, whatever, Trump people, Bernie people—I've
seen every single type of girl or person change their minds about guns because they see it
as a self-defense issue.
And people need to bring the messaging around that versus what they've been doing before.
dave rubin
Yeah.
Do you fear any kind of slippery slope with all this so that you do a campus carry?
And let's say in Texas, Texas, you have totally concealed carry right now?
antonia okafor
Yeah.
Concealed carry.
dave rubin
Outside of campus.
antonia okafor
And open carry.
They have that now.
But in the terms of campus carry, it's concealed.
dave rubin
Right, so the open carry, it's like when we see these pictures of like four guys with what appear to be rifles like at Chipotle, and it looks, it does, look, it looks kind of scary.
That just seems kind of scary to me.
Maybe not to you.
antonia okafor
No, no, it's definitely scary.
dave rubin
So then what, then how do we have that conversation?
The slippery slope part of this where it's like, all right, well, if everyone can have open carry and you can wander into a Chipotle with a gun on your back and you can have guns everywhere, the slippery slope of we're gonna end up being just the Wild West.
We're gonna go to a place where people are gonna start getting into arguments all the time and solving it that way.
Do you just see that as a nonsensical starting point?
antonia okafor
I can see it.
dave rubin
You're looking at me kind of.
antonia okafor
I'm like, man, the points I'm going to make right now are going to be .1.
First of all, the Wild West thing.
I will talk to that because it's funny.
I always hear that, especially on the left.
I'm like, okay, why don't you actually read your history?
Because the Wild West was actually even more gun control friendly because they made everybody check their guns with the sheriff.
So there's some knowledge right there.
dave rubin
So like when you go to a town.
antonia okafor
When you go to a town, you'd have to give your gun to the sheriff, and he would make a decision for you if you could have your gun or not.
So it's not the model West, it's the opposite.
Another thing is that, yeah, obviously I can't lie and say that those people aren't doing that.
I definitely don't think that's the proper way to get people on our side.
But for the majority of the time, it's people, if they're open carrying, if they are, I still have yet to see very many people do it since we've had it in Texas.
Then they're responsible people.
They're people that don't look like they're threatening or they're going to harm someone.
Do I still believe and know that there are people who are fearful when they see stuff like that?
Absolutely.
Me, not too long ago, I was the same person.
And I think we have to have that honest conversation.
It's like, look, I was a gun rights activist before I even purchased a handgun.
Because for a long time, I thought, Maybe the gun will just go off.
You know, I didn't know the mechanics of a gun.
People, they're not going to just learn it just naturally.
They have to know it by people educating them.
And you have to be patient and stop yelling at them in their face and bringing AR-15s in their face saying you must, I demand that you accept my side of thinking.
Right.
And talk to them and have a conversation.
Let them know that you're a good human being first, and the people behind those guns are good, law-abiding citizens.
And then you'll start to change people's minds on the guns, because it's not really about the gun.
It's about the person.
dave rubin
So I like that last sentence particularly because I know that if I had a gun right now of any caliber, I would not walk into a school and start shooting people.
I wouldn't walk into a mosque or a temple or anywhere.
I simply wouldn't do that because of my own mental capacity and not following an ideology that would want me to do that or anything of that nature.
But do you see any of this as...
When we have these shootings, do you see any of it on the fault of the guns, or do you always believe it's ideology and mental health and whatever else, upbringing?
antonia okafor
I never see it as the gun.
I see it, before even Wayne LaPierre made it popular, you know, good guy with a gun type saying, I've never seen it as, I've seen it as the people behind it.
I mean, you can use any tool to harm someone.
UT Austin, just a couple weeks ago, had the stabbing.
Which is funny, because they turned it around and said, well, Campus Carry didn't help us in that situation.
Well, it's not about that.
It was about the fact that, I'm sorry, to talk about the stabbing, a student with mental health issues stabbed several people, killing one freshman.
Yeah.
And a lot of organizations, a lot of news outlets said, well, Campus Carry didn't help us in that situation.
dave rubin
Well, you know, that's part of it, too, is that... Well, the argument doesn't make sense, because it doesn't mean that everyone's going to have a gun there automatically.
Absolutely.
antonia okafor
Absolutely, but people don't see that.
They see someone was killed, and they see that there are guns on campus, and guns are supposed to be the enemy there.
But it's really about the person.
We have to make sure that we are keeping these people healthy.
We have to talk about mental health.
Let's just talk about that more.
It doesn't have to be a taboo issue.
On our side, we'll talk more about that and we won't be the reactionary side to the people who are bringing it up.
Let's be the forefront and the advocates for mental health as much as we are advocates for guns.
dave rubin
So what kind of checks do you think are actually legit?
Like if you were fresh writing the law right now.
antonia okafor
You know, I've always stuck to the fact of campus carry.
I feel like when you bring other legislation in there, that it waters down your argument.
With campus carry especially, I don't see myself changing My views on the fact that concealed carry is a good way to go when it comes to going on college campus, maybe because we still have a whole lot of other states to convince before that, and it has helped to say, look, there are these checks in place.
If you are afraid of students having a gun on campus, look, the law, the state says it's okay, so I know you're a big fan of the state.
Yeah, yeah.
Administrative office, so at least trust them in a scenario, too.
It's helped.
It's helped.
I will say that.
So, I will say that, yeah, right now, I mean, I'm not, I open carry when I work at a gun range.
I open carry the gun range.
Am I totally fine with that?
Yeah, definitely.
Am I afraid of someone else who has one?
No, but I do know that there's a fear behind that, and so let's just be smart about it.
Let's take back that phrase, common sense, and bring it on our side and ease common sense with some things.
dave rubin
Yeah, so what about just in the more broad sense about access to guns?
Like, are you okay with that being a state, right?
You know, whatever the background check is and all that.
Should that all be kicked back to the states?
Should it be even more local?
Anything like that?
antonia okafor
You know, and I know that they do things here in California differently than in Texas.
dave rubin
I was like, what?
antonia okafor
County?
We just have all the gun life.
So yeah, so I, let's just all be like Texas.
You know, I just, I think, you know, as a You know, a libertarian leaning person, I do believe bringing it back to the states and then having that right to that is important.
Same thing with campus carry.
Do I think it should ever become a federal issue?
With campus carry, I think it's been good as a state-by-state issue.
Yes, it's harder, but man, I think right now having the background checks and making sure the people behind them are law-abiding citizens is important.
Again, it doesn't matter on the gun control side, they'll take those law-abiding citizens and make them demons regardless.
So that's what we're seeing right now is that these law-abiding citizens that statistically have hurt less people than the general public are demonized every time these mass shootings and these things happen in gun-free zones.
So yeah, I think that's where the fight is.
dave rubin
So are we having the same problems with the gun discussion that we're having with terrorism discussion in that we only talk about it right after something horrible happens?
antonia okafor
Absolutely.
dave rubin
So that we can never have an eye because then they'll say well now it's not the time to talk about it.
antonia okafor
Exactly.
dave rubin
And then people start screaming about it because they're they're upset about dead people which is completely legit obviously.
Yeah.
But that in the moments between We're not good at talking about anything, actually.
That's when people just start living their lives and doing their thing.
So we go from crisis to crisis to crisis, which certainly doesn't help, you know, a calm argument, regardless of what side you're on on this.
antonia okafor
And we're having that issue even now, in the age of Trump, is that people may look at the gun industry, ask anybody right now and see if gun sales are down and ammunition is down because, first of all, people thought Hillary is going to be president, and so it went up, and then now it's down because people think, oh, it's okay, it's Trump, he's with NRA, everything's going to be fine, and they become complacent.
And so it's actually harder for those people like me who are advocates to say, no, no, no, this is not going to be forever.
And if you are complacent now, especially on the state level, which is where all this stuff is happening, I mean, you're seeing this right now in California.
Where the states are really making the decisions, and then say we get someone who's completely on the left next time.
We're already eight years behind.
So you have to continue that fight, even when it's not sexy, when you think that on the federal level we're good.
That's actually the most dangerous time, because people are not looking, and people are able to get in in ways that no one keeps them accountable.
So that's the scary part.
dave rubin
Where do you think Trump fits into all this?
Because the NRA loved him.
He doesn't strike me as a real gun person one way or another.
I mean, he's a New Yorker, so this isn't a guy that, I mean, maybe he had security, or I'm sure he has security that walks around with a gun, obviously now he's the Secret Service, but like, his whole life he lived in the liberal bubble of New York City.
I don't think he, like it just doesn't strike me as a pet issue of his, but the NRA loved him.
I think he's said the right things for that group.
Do you have a real sense of what he really believes on this?
antonia okafor
I really think he's legitimate about, and that's why I said people get mad at me, but it was about pro-life issues and being able to defend myself.
And I felt like on those two key issues for me that he was going to be strong on them.
And so far he's been very strong on both those issues.
I don't see him changing fiscal issues, the budget.
Healthcare, now that I'm always open to debating him about because I don't think he's ever was an advocate for limited government in that sense, but those two issues I feel... Right, in many ways he was much more of a Democrat.
unidentified
Absolutely.
dave rubin
Although right now he is chopping a lot of the federal amount that we're spending on a lot of programs.
antonia okafor
Yeah, I saw that.
But we'll see.
Yeah, we'll see, exactly, we'll see.
dave rubin
Yeah, let's talk about the pro-life thing for a minute.
So I'm pro-choice, but I view abortion as a horrible choice.
I know several women that have had abortions.
Nobody takes it lightly.
Unfortunately, a lot of the messaging I think that you get from the far left on abortion is they've fetishized it into almost being something cool.
antonia okafor
Well, well, Lena Dunham says that she wishes she had an abortion, that type of stuff, yeah.
dave rubin
No, really, I mean, you're not making that up, and you see, I see a lot of videos on YouTube that have, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of views, where they're just talking about it in such a casual, sort of fun way.
There was that video of the girl who worked at an abortion clinic who had an abortion, and she like videotaped the whole thing, and there was a lot of questions as to whether she purposely got pregnant, so it's just, you can make, I mean, there's all kinds of crazy, Crazy stuff.
I view it as just a horrifically impossible existential question, and that my go-to here, ironically, would be a little bit like what got Tommy Lahren in some hot water, which is that it shouldn't be the government deciding what you should do with your body.
So, I'll just hand it to you from there and then we can go.
antonia okafor
Yeah, well, there's so much on that.
I just know... Come on, small-l libertarian.
I know, small-l libertarian.
dave rubin
Why am I wrong on that?
antonia okafor
That is the one thing that... but, you know, actually I can make a really good argument.
I mean, a lot of libertarians have is that If the government is there to protect life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, I mean, you don't have any of that without life.
So that's a big side with me, is that, yeah, you need to protect life.
And I think that's why people are kind of getting away from that, and they're going to the argument of when life begins.
Right?
And that's why it's shifted that way because more people are thinking, well, you're right.
I mean, you can't have life without, I mean, if you're going to do that.
So, but I mean, I've always been born again Christian.
dave rubin
Do you like arguing in that space though?
Because I think that's a healthy argument to have.
Like we could, neither one of us are scientists, but we could sit here and say, you know, I think for the first month that you can have an abortion and I think it's a hard choice, but acceptable.
antonia okafor
Yeah.
dave rubin
There's at least some room to, if you believe it's conception, then we can't quite get there on that, and that's okay.
But at least there's some talking points there, right?
antonia okafor
Absolutely.
Well, you know, there is definitely talking points, and I will be honest, I'm still trying to figure out what I believe.
I will say probably right now I still believe that it comes to a conception that life starts there.
But I'm still evolving.
You can see the last eight years that my views have changed.
And that's the thing, I'm open to many things, but I will say--
unidentified
Emotional.
dave rubin
I get guests to say it every now and again.
unidentified
I'm evolving, or I'm not fully there, or whatever.
antonia okafor
It would be a lie for me to say otherwise, but I will say it is primarily emotional for me.
I've had to deal with that personally, but life is just something so important to me.
I mean, women and children are something so important to me, and I just believe that if we're not protecting them because they are you know, vulnerable, they don't have a voice, then what
are we really doing if we can't protect those who don't have a voice?
Whether that's students or that's those who are unborn.
So I will say in that regards, I believe that the government should protect that right,
the right to life.
dave rubin
So if, we're doing hypothetical here.
If scientists could come down with a study that says, well, we know actually that it's not consumption, but it's six weeks in, something magical happens, and that's when life begins.
You think you could possibly, I'm really not trying to pin you, I'm just trying to, because you're saying it's about feeling, you're feeling right now.
So if they came to you and said.
antonia okafor
Which I'm sure may get a lot of like, here you are just talking about feelings and emotions.
unidentified
Someone on the right talking about feelings!
dave rubin
But if they could lay down something that said, you know, this is what we've been able to prove, do you think that could be enough to shift you?
unidentified
You know, I don't know.
antonia okafor
It would have to be when it gets there because it would be a lot of stuff.
You know, I'm a born-again Christian and that was seven years ago and so that's very important to me and I just know that that's something that you should not be advocating for.
I really think it's really that question.
I think we'll have other—even if that happens, there's still going to be people who are going to say, well, no, OK, we'll start six weeks, but anything after that, and then people want the right to continue on.
I think that argument is not going to end.
But, yeah, I really can't—I can't say whether or not if the science is there, if it's going to—if it starts at six weeks, if I change my mind because of that.
dave rubin
How about we'll do this again in eight or ten months and we'll see where we go then.
antonia okafor
Okay, well that sounds like I just ship my mind all the time.
My decisions and my ideas.
dave rubin
We'll do it in eight or ten months after that.
antonia okafor
Okay, we'll continue.
Where's Antonia and her political spectrum today?
dave rubin
The evolution of Antonia.
There's a movie there or something.
So as a small L libertarian, Does the pro-life thing then put you in a different tough spot because you don't want the government to then have to pay for a child, but if a woman that is poverty stricken or whatever can't afford to have this child, then the government says, well, abortion's illegal, so you're gonna have to have this child.
Does the state then have any responsibility to help them?
Because you can't like that idea as a libertarian, right?
antonia okafor
But I don't even get that, as someone who advocates for maybe personal responsibility, to say that there's only two choices there.
It's that, oh, the government says you can't have an abortion, so therefore it has to also take care of your children.
We don't do that for anybody else.
No.
I mean, that's not—I mean, there's instance after instance where you're not doing that.
So, just to say that— If that scenario happened, that we suddenly have to also, at that time, take care of that child, of course, I think there should be some type of safety net.
You know, most libertarians believe that.
It's just how long it is, to the point where it keeps someone from having that responsibility for their own life and the life that they choose to—or the life that they have and they take care of.
No, I mean, I think that's where the community should come in, where, you know, the places of faith, what other faith that you have, the people around you should be helping with that.
And I think that's what we advocate for as libertarians is that no one said that the government is supposed to be taking care of us in that way, even when it comes to abortion.
dave rubin
Yeah, so you basically see it as just a false choice.
Basically, right?
antonia okafor
Yeah, to say that that's the two scenarios and that's it, you choose one and if you're not, you're not libertarian.
I don't believe that.
dave rubin
Alright, well this hour is completely blown by.
So to wrap this thing in a nice bow, for all the people out there that are having their own political evolution, and I think you've been very Frank and honest here and all that about your own continuing evolution, which is a beautiful thing.
And that's what I try to bring to this every week.
What would you say is the most important thing for someone that wants to get in the fight,
even if they disagree with you politically, even if they sat and watched this for an hour
and go, "Man, she's bonkers."
(laughing)
antonia okafor
Or my hair.
(laughing)
dave rubin
What would you say to them about just having that moment and being able to talk about things
that your parents may not like or that your family may be upset with or any of that?
antonia okafor
I would say, I mean, fight on.
I mean, that sounds so... I swear I'm 27, guys.
That sounds so like I'm in my 80s era or something.
But no, seriously, it's going to be hard.
I mean, if you really want to make a difference, having the conversations that are needed, most people are not going to do that.
Keep at it.
I mean, because it's those people who believe they can make a difference, or who are going to make a difference.
We see it already today.
So keep on, and there are other people doing the same thing.
You're not alone.
But it's important.
We need that.
We need that in this country, especially now.
So keep on.
dave rubin
All right, well, this absolutely flew by.
I didn't look down once.
Pretty impressive.
Are you impressed?
antonia okafor
Awesome.
I'm very impressed.
dave rubin
For more on Antonia, check out her website.
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