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Oct. 9, 2025 - Ron Paul Liberty Report
34:01
The Christian Split On Israel, With Guest Pastor Chuck Baldwin

Not long ago US Sen. Ted Cruz told Tucker Carlson that his main purpose in getting into the US Senate was to "protect Israel." Like many US Christians, he expressed the view that one must "bless" the modern state of Israel or God will "curse" you as punishment. Pastor Chuck Baldwin (a former US Presidential candidate) joins today's Liberty Report to provide the counter-argument.

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Bribed Endorsements 00:05:46
Hello, everybody, and thank you for tuning in to the Liberty Report.
With us today, we have Daniel McAdams, our co-host.
Daniel, good to see you today.
Good morning, Dr. Paul.
How are you this morning?
Doing well.
You know, we have a very special guest today.
Very excited.
Yes.
That's good.
We're looking forward to this.
And our special guest today is Chuck Baldwin.
And we've known each other for a while, but more so in the last couple of years, which is interesting.
But, you know, we bribed each other.
He endorsed me for president, so I endorsed him for president.
There you go.
You know, that's a conspiracy, I think.
A conspiracy of ideas.
So, anyway, Chuck, we're really glad to have you on.
And I was down, Daniel.
I glanced at the articles that was on the internet, the Wikipedia, and all.
Every article I looked always described you.
They stereotyped you.
An extreme right-wingist.
I've never seen anybody's articles written up that they didn't identify you.
They do that a lot, but I think you get the record.
That to me means they're frightened by your ability to present ideas, so they have to try to destroy those who have ideas by calling them names.
But anyway, that cropped up a whole lot.
But, Chuck, you've been in the fight for liberty for a long time.
You've been in the ministry and continue to do that.
You're an expert on the Middle East, both in a religious and a political sense.
So welcome to our program today.
We're delighted to have you.
Thank you, Dr. Paul.
It is indeed my honor and privilege to be invited on your program.
I think the world of you, I believe you are the greatest U.S. congressman in American history, and I'm honored to be your friend.
Well, I didn't even tell him to do that, and I didn't promise him anything, but he stretched it a bit anyway.
Not at all.
So, okay, we want to start off for our audience to get to know you better, because certainly the part of the world that you've spent some time thinking about and writing about and preaching about, and that is, of course, the Middle East and Israel and Christianity.
So, of course, you and I identify greatly with our political views, which means that the one thing that I like to know is how you get started.
And everybody has a slightly different story.
Yeah, I saw the light when so-and-so I read this book or got exposed here or heard this sermon.
So, anyway, how was it that you came to the present views that you have today?
Is that something you've had a long time?
Was there some one item that said, boy, he woke me up?
Or is it something that sort of grew in your mind and in your soul to come to these convictions?
Yes.
Well, remember that I graduated from what is now Liberty University in Lynchburg.
Dr. Jerry Falwell was my mentor and pastor.
And I was in his first graduation class in 1975 from what is now Liberty University.
And so he and I were very close after that.
He spoke in my church down in Florida at least four times.
He wrote me up in his Liberty Journal.
I was on his old-time gospel hour television program.
I flew with him on his jet several times overseas and domestically.
Later found out that jet was bought and paid for by the state of Israel.
But I grew up under his mentorship.
And so I was very involved in the freedom fight right out the gate after graduating from college.
But, you know, I had my radio talk show, which was syndicated nationwide.
And in 2008, I ran for president after you had dropped out of the Republican primary at the insistence of many of your supporters.
And I do appreciate so much your endorsement in that campaign.
And I remember that my running mate and I, Darrell Castle, in 2008, were in your office in Washington, D.C. during that period of time.
I was privileged to introduce you to the audience at the mall in Washington, D.C.
And again, in a rally in Reno, Nevada, I was honored to campaign for you together with the people in Iowa.
And then I campaigned for you by myself in South Carolina.
And that was a very interesting experience.
So I was engaged in the political process from almost the time I graduated from high school.
I'm from college, but I did not understand the Israel issue until much later.
And it started in 2007 for me.
I was raised in the Zionist ideology, the dispensationalism, futurism, Schofieldism, Christian Zionism, call it whatever you will.
2007 Spiritual Stirring 00:02:58
That's the only thing I knew.
And I taught that for over 30 years.
So I know a backwards and forwards.
In 2007, however, my spirit began to be extremely stirred.
I believed by God that something wasn't right.
Every time I tried to talk about the subject, every time I tried to mention Israel or the biblical prophecies pertaining thereto, I had a real check in my spirit.
And this went on for many months.
I realized after a while that this was not something that was just a passing feeling, but it was a work of God in my heart.
I understood that the Schofield view of eschatology was totally, absolutely, and thoroughly wrong.
The problem with that was, if that's wrong, then what is right?
You know, it's a lot harder to earn, to unlearn something than it is to learn something.
And it took me a lot of years of study and prayer.
And I mean, I just delved into the Bible by itself.
I didn't listen to videos or audios.
I didn't read books.
I put all that aside.
I mean, I had tons of all that.
But God led me on my own.
It wasn't anybody that the closest thing that I could say to someone was in 2008 when we were in your office, Daryl and I, chatting about the things of the day.
I don't remember exactly how the conversation went, but somehow or another, it drifted over to the subject of Israel.
And you said something.
It was a very brief comment.
It was in passing.
We didn't dwell on it.
But what you said resonated with my heart so much, and it led me to believe that I was on the right track and that what I had been teaching was in error, which I apologize for that in public many times, and I apologize to people that I had taught dispensational futurism.
And I said, you know, I taught error, and I'll spend the rest of my life teaching truth.
And so what you said was very profound in my early days and putting me on the right track.
I studied, studied, studied, studied.
So from 2007 to 2014, I didn't even talk on the subject.
And then in 2014, I brought my first three messages on Christ and the Pharisees.
And that's the first three messages on our Israel package, number one, the very first foray into the subject.
And I began to speak more about it and talk more about it.
And of course, I've been doing that now for 11 years.
Devilish Doctrine: Doing More Harm 00:02:39
And thankfully, I have been totally delivered from the bondage of Christian Zionism, which I consider it a devilish doctrine.
And I believe it has done more harm to the cause of Christ.
It has done more harm to liberty in our country.
It has done more harm to constitutional government and all the liberty principles that you and I talk about all the time than any other single factor in the United States.
And I know that's a big statement to make, but I look at everything from a spiritual lens.
And I really do believe that the pastors are the ones that set the compass morally, spiritually, ethically for the nation.
And the fact that 80% of evangelical pastors are in the dispensationalist Schofield Zionist camp means that they are indoctrinating 80% of the evangelical population with all this skewed prophecy doctrines that's completely antichrist, anti-New Testament, anti-New Covenant.
And they're putting them in bondage to an alien power that is devilish in nature.
And as a result, I believe we're reaping consequences politically and civilly and in ways in our own domestic issues that directly relate to this falsehood.
Chuck, I want to get Daniel to join here.
Daniel, welcome our guest directly.
And I imagine you have a question for her.
I do.
Well, I have quite a few.
I won't get to all of them, I'm sure, but I'm so delighted that we're so delighted to have you.
I've followed you for a long time and admired you for a long time.
And you've been comfort to myself and I'm sure a lot of other people in some dark times.
But you were one of the more prominent individuals, pastors to come out against what I would call the Schofield heresy back when you did.
And you took a lot of heat for it, a lot of heat.
And I can only imagine because when people find their belief systems challenges difficult, because it's by nature not necessarily irrational thing, it goes to something deeper than that.
But I'm just curious now, since you have this 10 or so years ago, made that change, and maybe particularly in the last couple of years with what we've seen in Gaza, do you notice more pastors like yourself, more congregations like yours, starting to question this idea, as you would almost call it, a kind of a mental prison?
Blessing And The New Covenant 00:11:21
Do you see things coming your way in this respect?
You know, that's a great question.
And Daniel, by the way, thank you.
It's great to be with you as well.
Yeah, the initial response in 2014 when I began going public with my theological positions, totally repudiating Schofield Futurism, dispensationalism, Zionism, etc.
You can only imagine the ramifications of that.
I remember that all my life I had been a dispensationalist.
All my life I'd been a Christian Zionist.
All my life I had touted the line of Israel.
My peer group was all Zionists and premillennial and their theology and their eschatology.
So when I came out publicly and began repudiating this, with the exception of one or two, I lost every pastor friend that I had.
I lost probably 75% of the support financially that I had gained over 30 years of speaking and preaching.
And so the ostracization of my position was immediate and it was very, very brutal.
The financial cost was unbelievable.
I anticipated some fallout, but I never anticipated the reaction that I got.
For the first two to three years after I became public, I really did not know if I was going to be able to continue financially and survive.
Because, I mean, that's all I had known.
And I had a very large network of supporters, and they fell away by the droves, left and right.
The pastors disowned me.
A lot of them are still using their platforms to publicly rebuke me and call me a heretic and all those kinds of things.
So the first several years were extremely difficult.
And I didn't know too many people in my field from the ministerial level that were saying what I was saying.
There were a few out there, of course, but by and large, it was a John the Baptist lone voice in the wilderness kind of thing.
But, you know, I knew I was right, and I knew that this was God's truth.
And I had to learn this, I had to teach this for posterity that people needed to know that there was another position.
And it was a position that had been the status quo in evangelical Christianity for over 1,800 years of church history.
You know, the whole premillennial Zionist philosophy did not come into being until the middle 1800s, especially with the life of C.I. Schofield, who wrote the famous or infamous, if you want to look at it, Schulfield Reference Bible, which was produced in 1909.
That was the thing that really changed the game theologically.
Churches and Christian colleges began to pick this up and regurgitate this to their classes in college, to their congregations and churches.
And within a very quick period of time, it became the dominant eschatological position of evangelicals, and it still is to this day.
But until that point, the church never believed this.
This is a brand new doctrine.
And we have to put it in perspective of time.
So I knew that I was right to pursue.
God had given me that courage and resolve.
So I just kept preaching.
Kept teaching and we kept putting out videos and we kept putting out columns.
And now then, I tell you, you ask me about the reaction.
I am excited, literally, about what I see going on in the last six months.
But for my work, over the last three to four years, all of a sudden people began to understand the message of the new covenant.
Understanding that this pseudo-Israel state in Palestine is not a reincarnated Old Testament Israel.
It's a satanic counterfeit that the devil is using to deceive evangelicals and take them out of the fight, literally, for truth and liberty and constitutional government and all the things our country was predicated on.
And the last couple of years has been so excited.
Our outreach has grown exponentially, Daniel, to the point that I find it really unbelievable how many people are hearing the message and how many people are responding positively.
And I really think that the days of Christian Zionism are numbered.
And I don't know how to do the numbering, but I do believe that the days are numbered.
Daniel?
Okay.
I have a quote from the Senator Cruz from Texas.
And actually, you probably have covered an explanation of this, but I wanted to read the quote and get your opinion about it because he was interviewed by Tucker.
And Tucker wasn't pushing this, but it looked like Cruz was wanting to get a message out.
So he says, the article I was reading, it says, without even being asked the question directly, Cruz insisted on telling Carlson why he vowed to be a staunch defender of Israel.
And, you know, I guess so far you could be a supporter of Israel or, you know, whatever, but staunch and political and the rest, that bothers us a lot.
He said, and this is Cruz, growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed.
I want to be on the side of the blessing side of things.
Make a comment if you please.
Yes, he is touting the typical Schofield dispensational line.
That's from Genesis 12, 3.
And of course, historically, that verse always was known to be a promise directly to Abraham.
It certainly was not a promise to a group of white Europeans who migrated to Palestine 4,000 years later, and that somehow the blessing of God was depending upon a blessing of people that didn't even exist for another 4,000 years.
That's the most ludicrous, laughable interpretation of scripture that is imaginable.
It's amazing that I used to believe that, and so many people still do.
The fact of the matter is, though, that this is the problem that Zionist Christians make.
They interpret the New Testament by the Old Testament instead of the other way around.
It is the New Testament that explains the Old Testament.
And so they're still caught up in the Old Covenant.
And anything in the New Covenant trumps whatever's in the New Testament.
And so they use this verse to the man Abram in Genesis chapter 12 and apply that to the Zionist Jews in, or the Ashkenazi Jews, actually, in Palestine today.
But anybody that knows the new covenant understands clearly that in Galatians chapter 3, verse 16, the Apostle Paul is absolutely crystal clear that the seed promise to Abraham was not about a nation.
It was not about a generation of people at all.
It was about the Lord Jesus Christ and that Jesus, the Messiah, the Savior of the world, he fulfilled the seed promise to Abraham.
And this is the thing that I find almost sacrilegious, Dr. Paul, when you really delve into what they're saying.
They are saying that here we are, new covenant Christians who owe our faith to Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection on the cross.
We're called Christians.
We are disciples of Christ.
He gave us his new covenant, a new, better, and everlasting covenant.
He abolished the old covenant.
That's in Ephesians 2.15 and gave us the new covenant.
And that in this new covenant, under Christ, that somehow or another we're going to be blessed by blessing a nation of foreigners halfway around the world who do not even accept their Messiah, who most of them are atheists and antichrists theologically, and somehow or another that by politically blessing this atheist, Antichrist group of eschannel Jews, that we're going to be blessed by God,
that that is so repulsive to the new covenant theology of the New Testament because the Bible tells us that all of our blessings as Christians are in Jesus Christ.
All of the blessed, blessed are the meek, blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the merciful.
All of these attributes come to us through Christ.
Jesus is the blessing that we have.
And there is no greater blessing that we need than the blessing of Christ and the salvation he gives us, the new covenant that he gives us, the forgiveness and everything that he provides through his death on the cross.
And so it's really, in my mind, it's not only ignorance of New Testament theology, but it's also sacrilege of Christ's work on the cross.
You say, like, what?
After what Jesus did and everything we have in Christ and giving us the Holy Spirit and the Word of God and the new covenant, God's not going to bless us unless we bless this political group of extremist Jewish supremacists in Palestine, that the dependence of God depends on us blessing them.
That's ridiculous.
We are blessed in Christ.
All of our blessings come from Christ.
We don't need any blessings beyond that.
So it is a gross distortion.
And I use the word sacrilege even because I think it diminishes the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and the new covenant that he provided for us.
It certainly denies his salvific power to do that and also turns God into a real estate agent, which is pretty bizarre.
Netanyahu's War on Speech 00:11:08
Very good.
But I want to maybe move back a little bit more toward current events based on what we've established now in the time we have left.
And I think it's still related to this philosophical discussion we're having because, and I was going to ask this question anyway, and I turned to your column that just came out today.
And it actually was exactly what my first question was going to be.
You know, on the one hand, we must, we are demanded to support this secular state in the middle of the Middle East, or else, yet here we have, and you cover it very well.
Your title of your column is Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump declare war on the United States.
And lest one think this is hyperbole.
It's literally true.
And we've covered this on the show this past week.
We saw the meeting where Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, got together with influencers, social media influencers, many of whom are on the payroll.
We have since learned $7,000 per post.
Wouldn't mind getting in on that action, but I don't want to sell much over $7,000.
Nevertheless, he said he openly referred to this as a war.
We need to use the tools of war against our enemies.
He's telling these social media influencers this.
And then he says, specifically, the TikTok sale.
We've got to make sure that works right, i.e., in our favor.
And we've got to work on X.
Now, what he's referring to very obviously is the suppression of speech in the United States, the suppression of our First Amendment in the United States.
But he goes even further, and you mentioned this in your column.
He says, We are at war in the neighborhood on seven different fronts.
It is now time for us to open an eighth front.
And that eighth front is a war on free speech in the United States.
He's very clear about this.
What kind of an ally, what kind of our greatest friend who we've given $34 billion over the last two years, openly talks about opening a front against free speech in the United States?
Yeah, well, anyone who thinks that Israel is our greatest ally is either deluded or they're lying.
Israel has never been our ally.
Go back to the Pollard days when Mr. Pollard successfully stole extremely critical information and detailed reports and analysis of American security, sent it back to Israel.
Of course, he served time for that, but then he was released and he went back to Israel and got a hero's welcome.
And they treated him like royalty and have ever since.
And he did more damage to our intelligence network at that time, maybe since any time in U.S. history.
They've taken things that they've stolen and gotten surreptitiously from the United States and sold it to countries like China and other hostile states of the United States.
Israel has never been a friend of our country.
They are an albatross.
They are an enemy.
And the longer we support them, the more we get dragged into their incessant, perpetual wars of aggression.
And I think that's their goal.
They know they can't pull this off by themselves.
They want to drag the United States into the war with them.
And we've been fighting Israel's wars for at least all of this century.
I go back to G.W. Bush and the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan.
All that was for Israel.
That was all planned and concocted by Benjamin Netanyahu and the Israeli government.
They wanted the United States to do their fighting for them.
They wanted the United States to kill their enemies for them.
And that's exactly what we're still doing today.
They want us to fight Iran for them.
Everything is for them.
It's all for Israel.
It's not for the United States.
Iran poses no security risk to the United States of America.
But they want us to engage for them on their behalf war that will cost not only trillions of dollars economically, but the lives and has of thousands of our young men and women in uniform fighting for Israel.
That's not a friend.
So this, and the idea that you bring up, which is a very good one, and why I wrote the column today, it's actually more than just abridging free speech.
Donald Trump is doing that.
You know, he's taken the lead in trying to crack down on free speech, especially when it comes to Israel.
But what they're doing now is they've realized, they, the Israelis, they realize that they've lost the narrative worldwide.
I mean, look at what's going on in Western Europe, Daniel.
Yeah.
Millions and millions and millions, uncountable numbers of protesters all over the major cities in Western Europe.
They completely shut down the state of Italy, the nation of Italy, last weekend.
Literally, no buses were moving, no trucks were moving.
The entire nation was shut down by multiple millions of protesters throughout the country.
That's going on in Paris, it's going on in London, it's going on in Germany, all over the West.
They're coming out against, they're sick and tired of the genocide in Gaza.
And so they've lost the narrative in Western Europe.
They've lost the narrative among progressive young people here in the United States.
When you look at the polls under the age of 35, it's humongous.
It's 90% opposed to the state of Israel, especially on the Democrat side of the aisle.
So the Gen Z and the Democrat side, they have already turned against Israel.
So the only real group of positive vibrations that are left for the state of Israel comes from Charlie Cook's audience.
It comes from the young, mega, evangelical, Christian, conservative young people in the college campuses.
They're really the last bastion of support for Israel.
The older generations have already rejected Israel.
And now then they saw what's happening with Charlie Kirk beginning to have a change of heart about Israel, beginning to come out and say that he was rejecting Bill Ackman's browbeating to bring him in line to the Zionist issue.
And he rejected Benjamin Netanyahu's hundred-plus million dollars to bribe him to tow the line.
He was getting frustrated with the pressure.
He was getting angry and insulted by the way they were trying to control him.
He told Candace Owens, I'm out of here.
I'm done with this.
I will not be bullied like this.
Coincidentally, now that he was assassinated 48 hours later.
So what they're doing in Israel now is trying to buy TikTok and trying to get X and trying to get the platforms of social media where the younger generation is and where these young conservative Republicans are, the last bastion of support for Israel.
And they want to dominate the social media to propagandize that generation to try and salvage the hemorrhaging that's going on in America toward Israel because they see the tea leaves.
I mean, give it another 10 years or so, and who's going to be left that's going to support Israel?
The young people are going to be going into Congress.
They're going to be going to business.
They're going to be the leaders of our country.
And they've turned against Israel.
What does that bode for Israel in the future?
So this is an act of desperation to try and garner back this group of people that were changing their position on Israel.
You know, Chuck, the media tried to pump up the people by saying there's optimism to be looked at and things are getting better.
They have just signed an early stage of a major peace treaty, and it's been predicted by the administration and all the planners that on Monday the hostages would be released, and that's the first major step on the road to peace.
Now, I need a short answer to this because we have to finish, but I don't think this is complicated.
But I just think, you know, a lot of people still, the total media was flooded with that.
But what you're saying, that there's a breakthrough, and we talk about it all the time, especially all the young people.
But I would say that the odds of these predictions aren't very good.
But just tell me briefly what you think of the chances are peace that will break out on Monday and there'll be some changes in hostages in a real sense.
Yeah, I think it's zero.
Netanyahu himself is the greatest impediment to peace negotiations in the region.
He is the one man that has resisted peace negotiations time and time and time again.
Benjamin Netanyahu, unfortunately, controls the U.S. government.
And it doesn't matter what Donald Trump says.
You know, I think an indication of what we're saying here is after this supposed peace deal was reached, the President Trump told, commanded Benjamin Netanyahu to ceasefire, to stop bombing Gaza.
Well, what happened after that?
Benjamin Netanyahu increased the bombing of Gaza.
Benjamin Netanyahu is going to do what he wants to do.
It doesn't matter what a piece of paper says.
It doesn't matter what Donald Trump says.
It doesn't matter what any negotiated settlement says.
He is determined to proceed with the Greater Israel Project.
Sorry to interrupt, but our time has run out.
So I do want you to give an address or a way if somebody wants to stay in touch with you, give out your address, and then we'll be signing off.
Sure.
Thank you very much for that, Dr. Paul.
LibertyfellowshipMT.com.
LibertyfellowshipMT.com.
Okay.
And once again, I want to thank you very much for coming on.
I am sure you'll stir up some more conversation.
And I want to thank our viewers for tuning in today for this special program.
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