'Hope For Assange?' With Guest Julian's Brother Gabriel Shipton
Julian Assange's brother Gabriel Shipton joins the Liberty Report in-studio today to discuss his new film, ithaca, detailing the family struggle to release one of the greatest journalists of our time from the grip of the US and UK governments.
Don't miss a screening of the film near you: https://ithaka.movie/
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Hello everybody and thank you for tuning in to the Liberty Report.
With us today we have Daniel McAdams, our co-host.
Daniel, good to see you.
Good morning Dr. Paul.
How are you this morning?
Very good and Daniel, this is a special program today.
We have in-studio guests and I think our audience are going to be very pleased with the program.
But Daniel will tell us a little bit more about our guest, but I'll give you a little hint.
His brother is Julian Assange.
And it's some scary stories he has to tell, but there's a lot of important interest.
It's not over yet with Julian.
So we're very pleased that we have him in the studio and for a precise purpose, because I'm pretty convinced that our audience will be very, very sympathetic to trying to do whatever we can to right the wrongs that have been delivered to Julian.
And unfortunately, it is the United States that's been leading the charge.
And that, to me, is very sad.
Daniel.
Thank you, Dr. Paul.
And Gabriel Shipton, thank you so much for joining us today.
We first met in person last night when I attended a screening of your new film Ithaca, which is, I'm telling you, was such a moving film.
You know, I didn't exactly know what to expect.
I think I told you I dreamt about it all night last night.
It was a very different film because it was simply the story of a family trying to save a loved family member.
That's what it was.
And of course, he's an historic figure.
He's an important figure.
But boiled down, it was a loving father, a loving fiancée, a loving brother who pulled out all stops to try to save Julian Assange, a man who we all owe a great debt of gratitude.
If you don't mind, just take some time.
Let us know what the film was about.
Let our audience know what the film is about.
How did you come to make it?
What was the motivation to make it?
Well, Ithaca is a very personal film about, as you said, the people at the center of this fight to free Julian and also the center of this global movement that has now formed around Julian, which is a global movement for freedom of information and freedom of expression.
But these two key people who are at the center of this fight and following them and their journey as they fight against the global superpower and the strongest adversary on the earth.
It was back in 2019 when I went and saw Julian at the prison outside of London where he remains to this day.
That's a maximum security prison.
He is in that prison.
There's 800 other inmates there, 20% of who are convicted murderers.
Terrorists are on his cell block.
He is only one of two prisoners in that prison who is what they call a remand prisoner.
So he is not serving a sentence.
He has solely been held there at the request of the National Security DOJ.
And it was at that time in 2019 when I went to see him there that I left the prison that day feeling, you know, over all the years where whether Julian was in the Ecuadorian embassy or under house arrest, because he's been detained one way or another for going on 12 years, I'd never seen him like that before.
And I left the prison that day feeling that I might not see him again.
And, you know, that's when we started to think about a film.
How could we tell the side of this fight how we knew it, how the people from closest to Julian's, closest to Julian knew it, and not what is represented in the legacy media or the prestige media, just going behind the scenes with Stella and John and following their fight.
Why We Finally Spoke Out00:15:30
Yeah, and it was, I mean, I think his father, John, kind of emerged as a star on his own in the film because so much of his personality came out and it was very endearing, even his crankiness.
Don't ask me about that.
I don't want to talk about this aspect.
And it was all very endearing.
And it was, I mean, you sort of almost feel like you put yourself in their place.
What would I do if someone, if a loved one of mine was facing such injustice?
Would I have the courage to throw everything aside?
And John, though he's Julian's father and your father, he does have a young family as well.
So he tossed everything aside to help his grown son.
Yeah, that's right.
And I think that's seeing people who are, you know, John and Stella, they're just normal people.
They didn't choose this type of life for themselves, this, you know, constant interviews, constant advocacy all around the world, meeting with presidents and parliamentarians and congresspeople.
It wasn't by choice.
So they're just normal people.
And I think, yeah, the idea is, you know, we inspire, to be inspired by them, to take action, to fight for something that's bigger than yourself.
Very good.
You know, there's a lot of things about this story that's totally bizarre that bothered me for years.
And the one is Julian's being accused of, you know, telling lies and spreading bad information and all this going on.
And yet, how many people stop and think, of course, we've done our very best and the family has done a lot, is why are we in charge?
When I say we, the United States, why is the United States in charge?
Of course, it's a technical thing, it's a legal thing, and they're trying to, we're trying, the United States is trying to demand, send him over here.
He needs prosecuted because he told the, well, they don't say this, but he's telling the truth.
We have an empire, and it's very, very powerful.
And the one thing that is recognized about an empire, truth is treasonable in an empire that lies.
But the worse the empire gets, the more lies they have to tell.
And yet, truth has to be always available.
And that's why I'm delighted to hear about your film.
I didn't happen to see it, but I know that it's beneficial because, and I asked you a little bit about this earlier, about public opinion.
And I was delighted to find out that we get misled to say, well, the people of Australia, he may be a citizen here, but we don't want him this or you might have a different opinion on that.
But I think the prevailing attitudes, whether they're the lies that they tell or prevailing attitudes to endorse a philosophy, of course, for instance, our program endorses non-intervention in foreign policy and other ways to change the problems of the world, but not the authoritarian approach.
And that is why people need to speak out.
There's a danger from our viewpoint is that the dictatorship of the majority and democracy is not the answer.
But prevailing attitudes and opinions, whether it's economics or wars or whatever, is important.
That's why I am delighted to hear what you're doing and you've been doing it and others are, because it has to be perceived that the attitude to it has changed.
I think that's why we finally cracked in and got our side of the story, essentially heard about COVID, because the prevailing attitude had shifted.
Oh, the government's going to take care of us and take care of it.
So fortunately, you're doing the very best.
I think it's going to be beneficial.
We need to change the attitude.
We need to educate the people to know that it makes no sense for the United States to be so dictatorial and want to destroy this man and this man's family's lives.
Yeah, I think it really comes down to one of the basic pillars of democracy as well, knowing what your government does in your name.
In a democracy, the power is with us.
We have the power.
We delegate it to our elected representatives.
And not knowing what they do, does that mean do we really live in a democracy or is it just a joke?
So with what's happening to Julian, you spoke a little bit about the support in Australia.
There is now 88% of Australians who say that Julian should be brought home.
December 2nd last year, the Australian Prime Minister said publicly in Parliament that he doesn't see what purpose is served by Julian being kept in prison.
So that is the first world leader of, you know, Australia is a very close ally to the U.S. military partner.
And he's the first one to be on the record as saying, you know, Julian should be free.
That's right.
Just a minute.
Daniel has another question.
But I think that argument is powerful.
Why can't the poor man go home?
If he's committed a crime, let him be tried there or something.
But the truth is, is that he's telling the truth and we don't like it.
And that is sad.
Sad.
Daniel.
I think one of the most powerful parts of the film, and we all knew this happened, but seeing it happen in the film was like painful all over again.
You know, toward the end of the Trump presidency, when the family was desperately trying to engage someone, please just get a pardon on Trump's table.
And it wasn't in the film, but we know that Trump said he loves WikiLeaks about 100 and some times throughout the campaign.
He loved it during the campaign, but when he had the opportunity, and I believe, maybe you can correct me, Gabriel, I believe he even had a pardon in front of him that he could have signed.
As he was signing hundreds of other pardons, he declined to do that.
That was a powerful and was a pretty dejecting part of the film.
Yeah, and we saw at the time, Stella was campaigning constantly for that Trump pardon, and there was a pardon written up.
There was a pardon on Trump's desk, and he had an opportunity to sign that.
We saw reported by Tucker Carlson that Trump received a call from Mitch McConnell saying, you know, if you do this, it's not going to go well for you.
And there's been some other sort of reporting on that, and that Trump was, you know, essentially used Julian as a bargaining chip in that sense for his own political fortune.
The impeachment was coming too.
That was on the table.
And yeah, and Tucker Carlson reported, yeah, Mitch McConnell rang him and said, oh, well, the impeachment won't go well for you if you go ahead with this.
Well, we know that McConnell said yesterday he was furious that these tapes were released of January 6th.
So he's definitely in the deep state for sure.
But that's, unfortunately, there aren't many profiles of courage in the Trump administration.
There are a few, but that certainly wasn't one of them, I think.
You know, I think that there's a good chance that this will shift, but that's maybe as much wishful thinking as any.
The one thing I do know that if you weren't here and traveling in the country, other members of the family, Daniel was very, very impressed with your documentary.
And I think that is a reason to be optimistic.
And we're always looking for this, a changing of attitude.
But from my viewpoint, I would say it's not so much changing their attitudes.
And maybe it's been a more public discussion in Australia, each Australian.
It's that people don't know.
And if they do know a little bit, they probably don't care enough.
And so I think, and you do have to hit the logic and the legality and the emotions of it.
It sounds to me like you achieved that in your film.
Yeah, and I think last time my father and I were here, we toured, I think, 15 different cities in 2021 in June.
This time around with the film, we're doing 52 events.
So you can see the progress that's been made here and the interest that is developing over time.
And once we speak to people, once we talk to them about this case, and what's at stake here in terms of democratic rights, an unprecedented attack on the First Amendment, they come around.
People understand it if you explain it to them and they join our side.
And I think Julian said something really interesting that has sort of been an unforeseen outcome of his persecution is that he wanted to export the First Amendment to the rest of the world.
And so what we've seen now around the world is this global movement forming for freedom of expression that never existed before.
And it's all formed around the fight to free Julian Assange.
You know, you have 50 parliamentarians in Australia who are all calling for Julian's freedom, 70 in Germany, 25 in the UK.
And these are all groups that are cross-party groups.
They're bipartisan, they're conservatives, as well as progressives, as well as people from the centre who all see what's at stake, who all see this global overreach.
With this Espionage Act prosecution, the U.S. can now reach into any country with the Espionage Act.
If somebody publishes something, they can reach in and say, well, you've violated our Espionage Act.
We're going to put you in a prison.
Yeah, and the attack on the First Amendment and the principle of freedom of speech is so clear.
And right now, not directly related to Assange.
But what about this battle going on in the States now of people being cancelled and the collusion of big government and big business controlling speech?
And so we're in the midst of it.
And, you know, if you look at the totality of it all, that is a big thing.
But it is a reflection of an attitude.
If they can do it to one person and get away with it, nobody cares.
And they have.
Now people are starting to complain about the curtailment of our First Amendment rights here.
But it is a worldwide event.
And how that's going to earn up.
But all I know as a libertarian, the answer has to be telling the truth and convincing people through persuasion that it's a better world if you tell the truth and if you live within an empire lies.
Daniel.
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And Dr. Paul, I gave a little talk last night, very short mention, because I wanted to put it in context.
And I know you remember this, but I went back and looked at the congressional record before I went to see the film.
And it was in 2010 when collateral murder was released.
It was in the summer of 2010.
And as far as I could tell, and again, my congressional record searching skills have waned slightly since I worked for you on Capitol Hill.
As far as I could tell, I believe you were the first person to go down to the floor and mention Julian Assange and mention the persecution at the time.
And in fact, when I read some of the things you were saying, I thought, this is amazing because you said people are talking about putting him in jail and even assassinate him.
This is crazy.
I can't believe it.
Just for telling the truth.
So it really had an impact on us.
You remember because we were fighting against the Iraq War.
We knew it was based on lies.
And then when collateral murder and the other releases came out, we knew for a fact because we saw the cables, we saw the video, we knew what happened.
And it was a huge boost, I think, to us, even just psychologically.
One quick question.
Was I consistent in my arguments back then?
You were consistent back then.
You came down to the floor in January, just a couple of months later, and said the same things.
But there weren't many.
It was you and it was Dennis Kucinich.
And I believe there was one other Democrat who were favorable.
There were many unfavorable speeches I won't mention, but one Republican from Michigan thought he should be treated as a terrorist.
And this is back in 2010.
And things only got worse after that.
But I think it's important to remember the context of the time and how important it was for us.
We felt like we were swimming against the tide, and it really gave us a boost when this information came out.
I want to ask Gabriel a little question here about Julian.
You mentioned that he had a worldwide perception.
He would like to, if he had his goals, he would have liked to spread the principles of the First Amendment.
He's a journalist, you know.
So do you recall that?
Were you in communication with him?
Did he ever personally express these desires to look at what the United States was doing?
You know, how could he have much of a favorable opinion right now?
He's a victim, you know.
But was there a time when, and I'm sure, like even now, the people of Australia are starting to, you know, at least not look at us as very bad people, you know, but they need the correction.
But do you think back then there was a time when Julian would have said, you know, America's a pretty neat place, you know.
Yeah, I do.
And I think he's on record as saying that as well, that, you know, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, they're great foundational documents and very good rules to live by if you can manage to maintain them.
And that's why I mentioned that exporting the First Amendment to the rest of the world, because it is a world standard in freedom of expression.
There is nowhere else like it.
You know, you have similar things in Europe, and there are always these carve-outs.
You know, that shouldn't diminish what's going on.
That shouldn't diminish the importance of the First Amendment.
Should enhance the importance of the First Amendment because when individuals abuse it, they're undermining it, and then that which they're trying to take from us becomes more valuable to us.
So that's sort of a way of saying, well, maybe some good will come of this.
Conditions Under Extradition00:03:16
It'll wake up some people.
And I keep imagining things.
Sometimes we have a report to say, and such and such happen, it's horrible.
And I'll tell Daniel, yes, but there's going to be a few people who look at that and say, they're ridiculous.
I'm looking into something who's going to tell the truth.
Yeah, I often have a bit of a laugh with my father that we're two Australians going around the US, you know, convincing people to stand up for their First Amendment.
I didn't ever think that I would be a First Amendment advocate in the USA.
We don't have a monopoly.
Well, at the risk of turning the tone a little bit more depressing, I was wondering if you feel comfortable telling us maybe a little bit about his conditions for maybe for people who are watching the show who don't follow it.
What's it like for him, as you understand it, in Belmarsh?
What kind of living conditions you touched on a little bit.
You went into a little bit more detail last night, which is pretty grim.
So as much as you're comfortable telling, I think we'd love to hear about that and how Julian himself is doing.
Well, Julian, as I said earlier, has been coming up on 11th of April, it'll be four years inside a maximum security prison.
It's the UK's hardest prison.
When you go and visit him, you have the soles of your feet searched.
They check inside your mouth.
You go through multiple airlock-type setups.
They have a sniffer dog that actually climbs on you and sniffs inside your hair.
So just as a visitor, you can feel the oppressiveness of the prison conditions there.
His children, who are quite young, three and five, they go through the same procedure to visit Julian.
And sometimes it can be very hard for them.
You can imagine a three-year-old, a prison guard, wanting to look in their mouth.
Sometimes they just don't cooperate.
So I last saw Julian when I was in the UK at the beginning of November.
And, you know, this it's slowly crushing him, this process, this never-ending legal process.
He has this extradition hanging over his head.
And at the magistrates' level, magistrates' court level, the extradition was rejected on health grounds because expert witness testimony said that Julian would, if extradition were to become imminent, Julian would find a way to take his own life.
And so, you know, that's what we are sort of living with.
And the prison is, it's wearing him down.
He had a stroke, a minor stroke, at the end of 2021.
So that is just evidence that it's taking its toll on his body as well as his mind there.
And he's not yet 50, is he?
He's been stroke of 50.
He's 51, yeah.
So he's very young for that sort of condition.
It's approaching cruel and unusual, isn't it?
Ten years ago it was.
The UN Special Rapporteur on Torture called it a slow-motion murder before our eyes.
Yeah, that's right.
Which is quite poetic, unfortunately.
What Can We Do?00:05:08
Well, I guess one question that Dr. Paul and I both have, and I'm sure our audience has, and it's not an easy one, but what can we do?
I mean, it's easy to feel powerless.
We want to feel that we're helping him.
What would you suggest people who are out there?
What can they do to do something to try to help him?
Well, you can come and see us.
John and I are touring around the country.
As I said, we've got, you know, we're doing these 52 events, so likely we'll be coming to a place near you.
You can find out all that information on our film website, which is IthacaMovie.com.
That's I-T-H-A-K-A-Movie.com.
And we have a link in the description, by the way, too.
Yes.
And as we travel around, we're always encouraging people to get involved in the democratic process.
Call your congressperson, call your senator, make an appointment with them, go in and see them and say, why aren't you speaking out about this?
This is a threat to the First Amendment.
This is a threat to our democratic rights in this country.
Why aren't you saying more?
Right.
How many people have reviewed the films and written about it?
Has anybody done it?
Has it all been negative or a lot of positives or nothing?
Well, we've had, I think there's a rotten tomatoes.
Our rotten tomatoes rating is 91% for the Furythica.
So it's overwhelmingly positive.
We've had, you know, I think there's been some reviewers here in the U.S. who might have reviewed Julian rather than the film.
And then you brought all their old preconceptions.
So there has been a couple of negative reviews, but they're overwhelmingly from a political position rather than a humanitarian.
Yeah, yeah.
Or looking at the film on its own.
Well, as a filmmaker yourself, how did it feel to make such a person of them?
I think you said last night that normally you make dramas, you produce dramas and dramatic.
How was that transition for you?
Yeah, I mean, it was an extremely personal, you know, it's a personal piece of work.
I was the producer.
I got a director in to help with the project.
And that allowed, I guess, a little bit of space and independence there.
Ben Lawrence, who directed the film, I never met him before this process began.
But if anybody wants to know more about their family, they should certainly make a documentary about them.
Was the filming done in Australia or all over?
All over the world, yeah.
So we shot in three continents, Europe, Australia, the US.
Was it very often that people would say, get away from us, we don't want you in here?
Or were they people reasonable?
I think that happens throughout this campaign, all around the world.
Some of them.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
We do run up against that a lot.
And that's what it's about.
We've got to convince people to come to our side and support us.
Well, I just, I mean, I think we're, at least I'm about ready to close out, and I just would really encourage our viewers, there's a link at the bottom.
Go see the film if you can.
It's playing throughout the country.
Ithaca is the name of the film.
If you go to the link, you'll find where it's playing near you.
It's going to be in Dallas, I think, tonight.
And then a little bit later, it'll be in Austin.
So come on, Texas.
You've got to show up.
You've got to show up and give some support.
And you're going to love the film.
It's a great film.
For myself, Gabriel, I just thank you so much for contacting us, for joining us, for allowing us to see the film, for allowing us to talk to you.
And we wish you the best.
And I, too, Gabriel, want to thank you very much for your work and what you have offered and you're coming here for our program.
And I think that it's going to be very important that we can contribute to the momentum.
That's what it needs to be.
So this is to me very, very valuable.
A lot of people, like Daniel points out, people ask, what can I do?
What can I do?
You know, sometimes they're talking about the real broad picture.
They're looking at the libertarian best.
Now what do I do, Dr. Paul?
What do I do?
And my flippant answer is, do whatever you want to do, but do something.
And because some people have talent about making documentaries and movies, but that's not my thing.
I can't do that.
So we try our best, and that is what we need to do.
And I think that good will come of it, but it is sort of scary.
But history is a scary thing to look at.
So I applaud you and encourage you to continue your work.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me on.
And I think, yeah, important that you talk about that momentum.
There are some strong members of Congress like Congressman Massey who have been very good on this issue.
And yeah, there should be more joining them to call this out for what it is.