Lindsay Shepard’s skepticism toward DEI policies evolved after Wilfrid Laurier’s 2018 controversy, where she saw them as enforcing ideological conformity over meaningful diversity. Her June 2020 parody of corporate anti-racism statements lost 500 subscribers when critics misread it as genuine hate speech. Shepard also condemns Chapters Indigo’s December 2020 refusal to honor disabled mask exemptions, calling it discriminatory like denying wheelchair access, and urges boycotts against such policies. Despite her early anti-lockdown stance holding up—she never contracted COVID while unmasked—she criticizes Canada’s political parties for ignoring broader freedoms, with only Maxine Bernier, Derek Sloan, and Randy Hillier offering resistance. Shepard’s book Diversity and Exclusion has drawn positive feedback but no renewed backlash, signaling a shift in public discourse toward policy critiques over personal attacks. [Automatically generated summary]
Lindsay Shepard is a cultural commentator with True North Canada who sprung into the spotlight when she dared to show a Jordan Peterson video in a university class.
She's also the author of her new book, Diversity and Exclusion, Confronting the Campus Free Speech Crisis.
You can find her on YouTube at Lindsay Shepard.
Thanks for joining me, Lindsay.
How are you doing today?
I'm doing great.
Thanks for asking.
Thanks for joining me.
And I read a bunch of your book last night and I wanted to talk about specifically, it's right at the beginning actually.
You say, quote, the ideology of diversity, equity, and inclusion in Canada is a weasly concept.
Now, what I was wondering when I read that, because I've watched your videos for the last couple years, did you always feel this way about these ideas?
Or did everything that happened to you sort of push you in this direction?
I have to assume that it did.
Yeah, so before when I saw things like, you know, the language of equity and inclusion and when I would see diversity offices, I guess I just thought to myself, whatever, these people are just creating jobs for themselves.
They're probably doing nothing.
But then I went through the Laurier controversy and I started to gain a lot more cultural knowledge around political correctness, free speech on campus, those kinds of issues.
And I think it was then when I learned these are actually very highly ideological people and they are pushing an agenda.
And, you know, the purpose of those diversity offices on campus or elsewhere is to enforce viewpoints in people.
So I went from kind of thinking, they don't do anything, to, oh, these are, they definitely have an agenda they're pushing.
Now, a lot of the battle, so to speak, is equity versus equality.
And people tout equity a lot as being what the preferred outcome should be.
We should have a forced quota of, let's say, black, Latino, and white people all the same.
Why is it, in your opinion, a bad thing to want equity as an outcome?
So, I mean, I am a big proponent of diversity.
I mean, I believe there should be diversity of life experience, diversity of viewpoints, diversity of opinion.
But when it comes to superficial factors, I don't really see much of a benefit.
Or at least, you know, I don't agree that it should be just this number one goal, which is what it is right now.
It's a number one goal to have, you know, this amount of women, this amount of BIPOC, you know, Black, Indigenous, people of color.
Whereas I think what we should put the emphasis on is diversity of life experience.
And where do you see this taking the most effect?
I mean, do we have enough time where this has been going on where we can see negative outcomes from this thinking?
I don't know.
And it's hard because I'm someone who went to university starting in 2012.
And for example, in Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukianov's book, The Coddling of the American Mind, that's the title of the book, right?
I believe it's not.
Not just the article.
Yeah.
I think they trace all this back to 2013 or 2014, around then.
So I'm someone who hasn't known anything else.
And so it's hard for me to say.
Whereas other people have, I mean, there's some who say Marxism and universities and that kind of stuff goes back way, like decades.
But the social justice orientation on campus is kind of all I've ever known.
And it does, it goes back to high school too.
But it's even worse now, I would say, for students.
It's starting in elementary school.
Every single elementary school in Canada basically says they're on what, like unceded territory and stuff like that.
And that's a very political statement.
You know, you're telling, you're priming these kids to think that they don't belong in the place that they were born or the place that they're living and going to school.
Yeah, I remember it going back to high school, but it was more of a half of a joke, more of an idea, these white people, these old white men are controlling everything, but it wasn't really taught.
I say it wasn't really.
I don't recall a teacher saying anything like that until I got to college, until we had a media teacher telling us what was what in her world.
So I don't know.
I think it has gotten much worse as the years have gone on, and definitely we can now point to the most recent years where it's sort of exploded.
You have a hilarious video I wanted to show people.
It's an anti-racism video that's on your YouTube channel.
I want to ask you about it and how you came up with this.
So let's go ahead and play that and we'll get your reaction.
It is time to have an uncomfortable conversation in this country about confronting systemic racism.
In Canada, we are known for being polite, but that politeness covers up an ugly reality of racism.
Canada has a long history of oppressing racialized communities.
And while things have gotten better, there is still a lot of work to be done.
We need to listen to the voices of black and Indigenous people.
We need to amplify their voices because racism causes harm.
We need to acknowledge our own biases, but we don't just need words.
We need action.
Canada is a diverse country, but we need to ensure that that diversity is reflected in our government, media, and education systems.
We have a duty to reflect diverse communities and make sure that all voices at the table are heard.
We can do better.
We need change.
How do we bring about change?
We need real solutions.
We need to elevate the voices of racialized communities.
We need to confront our biases.
We need to dismantle systems of oppression.
We need to ask, are our offices and boardrooms showcasing diversity?
Bringing about this change is going to involve some really difficult and uncomfortable and even awkward conversations.
But these are important conversations and we need to start this dialogue.
Because this isn't just an American problem.
It's a Canadian problem too.
It is time to bring about real change and we can do better.
That's a very nice PSA.
Lindsay, where did you come up with the idea to do that?
So I think this was from June 2020, which was after the George Floyd death.
And I just found every single corporation and government making the same kind of statement.
And it sounds like exactly what I said.
They said all these words.
And I just wanted to parody it.
And actually, fun fact, in the 24 hours of me posting that video on YouTube, I lost over 500 subscribers, like, right away.
Because people thought I was serious.
I was going to say, one of the best comments on there is, if you're not careful, you're going to get elected to government with that attitude.
Yeah, and also lots of comments saying, oh, I thought you would have known better after what you went through at Wilfrid Laurier.
And it's like, okay, obviously, just read the description and you can tell it's a joke.
I lost a lot of subscribers after posting that.
Wow, it sounds like it's time for another one.
On a more serious note, have you heard any of the diversity-related arguments, like somewhere along the lines of what is actually being parodied here?
Have you heard any arguments that have made sense or made you think that maybe there's something deeper to be explored there?
Like that we should hire people because of their skin color or gender?
No, more like, I understand that's ridiculous, but more along the lines of let's go with the native argument, for example.
I'm sure in your travels by this point, you've been accosted by a lot of people who have said pretty much what you've said in the video.
Have any of them had any ideas that you think are worth exploring?
No.
That's as simple as you can put it, I guess.
Now, has your return sort of to the spotlight with your book sparked recognizable criticisms that you had, let's say, three years ago?
Do you mean am I seeing comments from people that are criticizing me that I think are worthy criticisms?
No, I'm saying, is it back to the old normal as opposed to the new normal?
Have the criticisms come back to you where they're saying that you're anti-this and an ism that?
Have they started attacking you again?
Has anybody started attacking you again for coming out with a book like this?
No, I don't think so.
And what's nice about having the book is I really got the opportunity to explain everything.
And, you know, maybe some of the critics will read it.
And I am interested in reading every single review of the book.
That's something I've made clear, whether it's a congratulatory review or if it's critical, I want to read everything.
But yeah, I did get the chance to say everything that I thought about the Laurier controversy.
And I laid everything out.
And I'm hoping I'll get some good feedback, but I think it's still kind of early right now.
Hopefully some more hate mail, Lindsay.
Something I noticed you tweeting about recently was about chapters.
And I think there's a CBC article we can pull up that you referenced.
And they're not honoring mask exemptions.
Now, I did a video recently about retailers denying exemptions, which of course is not a thing.
You can't just say that we don't have to follow the bylaw there.
This is about a daughter who had her mask exemption, I think you said three times denied at chapters.
Well, not three times.
So this was the third high-profile incident of chapters denying entry or kicking someone out who could not wear a mask.
And so this, yeah, this is the most recent.
And of course, there's probably a lot more incidents of chapters in Nigo doing this.
But in December of 2020, a 12-year-old boy with severe autism was kicked out of the store because he wouldn't wear a mask.
I think the mom in that case launched a human rights tribunal complaint, which is great.
And there was another woman in Vancouver trying to enter a chapters who, I think she was a Paralympian, so she didn't have hands.
And so she couldn't put on a mask.
And they still wouldn't let her in.
And so after seeing all this, like the way I saw it was three strikes you're out, right?
I will never support chapters again.
I think supporting chapters after seeing all this is completely unethical.
And people's thinking is all wrong on this because it should be, if you are scared to go out in public, you can stay home.
It's not that everyone who's happy to be going about their lives should be staying home.
Like people have it all warped.
Who's to say that these people, you know, like disabled people or not, can't just have a day where they go out and buy a new book?
Like who are you to say, oh, they have to shop online and curbside pickup?
No, if you're scared to go out in public, you can do that.
The rest of us, we're not scared.
It's also illegal to discriminate against a person and make them force them into a different form of service.
Just like, it'd be like saying we don't have a wheelchair ramp too bad.
You're going to have to be subject to online or outdoor pickup only.
And you kind of mentioned it there.
I wanted to ask you, I believe on your Twitter you asked if people boycott anything.
So you're for, do you think boycotting is an effective thing to do to put your money where your mouth is and sort of teach these corporations?
Because like you said, it's not the only place.
Canadian tire is a big offender in my opinion.
One place that I criticized threatened to sue us, sue me and David Menzies.
So there's all sorts of this stuff.
Do you think boycotting is something people should be doing more often?
Yeah, I think so.
I think that's one of the best ways to show your support or show your disapproval in the pandemic is, you know, chapters.
And I'm not saying this is someone who never went to chapters anyway.
Like I bought there frequently.
I had like a plum rewards card and I honestly won't go there again.
I mean, I'm pretty accustomed to only buying things that I believe in and that I'm ethically aligned with.
I'm a vegetarian, for example.
So I do believe that, you know, buying alternative meat products and not consuming meat is good.
And on the flip side, there was this woman, she was actually in the news recently, and she owns a clothing shop in Tofino, Uklulet, in BC.
It's called Pina.
Why Masks Became a Virtue Signal00:04:23
And it's just her designs.
I think she prints mostly on clothing that is made in Vancouver, too.
So not made in China, but made in Vancouver.
And I saw that I was familiar with her shop, and I just was looking at her Instagram one day, and I saw that she was writing about how it's wrong for kids to wear masks.
And pretty much right after seeing that post, I bought something from her shop because I was thinking, I want to support business owners who are speaking out against this.
I think recently she was in the news because she compared wearing masks to residential schools, which, I mean, we can criticize those kinds of comparisons, but I do want to support business owners who speak out.
And I think we should do that.
I think people are very apolitical about their money a lot of the times, and they think they won't make a difference, blah, blah, blah.
But I think it's a good way to live.
And it makes you feel better too, to really buy from people who you're aligned with and boycott people who are doing everything that's contrary to a free society.
I mean, chapters, their policy is two years and older needs a mask.
That's just ridiculous.
There's no way.
My son just turned two and I was kind of waiting for this because I wanted to see what he would do if he was presented with a mask.
And he just turns his face.
Like there's no way you're getting toddlers to wear masks.
There's some parents who specifically train their children to do it and they'll post about that online.
They'll say like, oh, starting at, you know, 20 months old, I started training my son how to wear a mask.
And it's like, ugh, it's just sad.
I want to get more into the lockdowns later, but I just want to ask you, do you think that this sort of thing, like what you just mentioned, has it turned into sort of a virtue signal just as so many other things have, but wearing masks, taking a vaccine and spouting off on social media about it?
Do you think there's a lot of that other than, as opposed to this being for my health and this is what's right, more of a popularity thing?
Yeah, absolutely.
You can kind of tell, like, so I've been confronted, you know, over the past year about not wearing a mask, not social distancing, or like one lady confronted me because at the mall, my toddler was trying to go through the exit door instead of the enter door.
And you can tell they just love to tell you you're wrong and they love to tell you what to do.
And I think it's people refer to it as petty authoritarianism, right?
I mean, you know, and interestingly, it's most of the time it's other women trying to tell me what to do.
Like, I was at a ski resort skiing one day, and I mean, so you know, you have to wear a face covering when you go skiing, which is, and it's just silly because when you're skiing, you are outdoors, your equipment kind of makes you not near other people, you're wearing gloves, etc.
And so, for one second, I wanted to take down, I think it's called a snood, my snood, because it was just gross.
Like, when you're skiing, it gets wet, it gets snowy, like your snot is in it.
Like, I don't want to have that on my face.
So, I pull it down, and immediately, you know, the woman's like, you need to put your mask on.
Like, God, they just love it.
And it's the women, in my case, always women telling me what to do.
See, that's interesting because I also see women as being more vocally against this stuff.
So, it might be something worth exploring, you, not me, because you're smarter than me, of the possible correlation between this.
Because I'm noticing more women declining to wear masks, opening more businesses, things like that, and standing up against it.
So, it's interesting that women are more, I think, I don't have a study to back this up, but I think what I've noticed is more emboldened in both directions, it sounds like.
Something else I wanted to talk to you about was you mentioned it to Ezra Levant, how you were sort of thrust into this position, and I want to get you to expand on that.
So, let's show that short clip, Justin, of Lindsay talking to Ezra.
No, as I write on the blurb of the book, I went from going from a nobody to going viral.
Anti-Lockdown Rallies Debate00:12:58
So, I had no social media accounts.
I was not active in that kind of sphere at all.
And this book tells the story of being thrust into those issues and learning about free speech and political correctness, those kinds of issues really quickly, and immersing myself in them because I just kind of found myself in the middle of something.
Now, you mentioned there, you didn't have social media accounts until you're sort of thrust into this.
Besides everything to do with promotion and the public profile you have now, would you prefer not to have them to not have to engage in the sort of the social media world?
I'm not sure how to answer that.
I do see social media as it was crucial for getting my message out during the Laurier controversy.
It was my way of fighting back against the university because that's what made them respond as people on social media, right?
And the people who were invested in the case.
Yeah, I go back and forth on the social media thing.
And how do you think it has affected activism and people's causes?
Do you think it overall has a way of just like clouding the real message?
Do you think, like we mentioned with masking and everything, that it's used sort of as a more of a boasting apparatus?
Do you think it's an overall net positive for people making change, or do you think it convolutes messaging too much?
I believe that, you know, activism requires in-person gatherings.
And so I think that's why I've been someone who's been pretty anti-lockdown since March 12, 2020, because I believe that in person is crucial to, you know, you need to connect with other people.
You need to meet in person.
There's just something that happens physically that you can't replicate on Zoom.
And so, I mean, but at the same time, I find out about rallies.
I mean, I was just at, over the weekend in Vancouver.
I think it was April 10th.
It was the stand-up speak up rally against child gender transitioning.
I think Drea from The Rebel was there.
I saw her.
And I mean, I found out about that online.
I find out about anti-lockdown rallies online.
But then, you know, I'm the kind of person who then finds out about it and still shows up in person.
Whereas I think a lot of people, I don't know, they wouldn't show up in person.
But yeah, and it's the same reason why I'm frankly quite surprised that students in university or even students, yeah, no, students in universities, why they're not speaking out against school being online.
I mean, they're paying the same fees just to be sitting in front of a screen all day.
And no one in Canada has said anything about that or protested or marched or anything, which is pretty surprising to me.
They're busy getting the diversity.
That's what they're arguing about right now.
You mentioned March 2020 is when you went to the first protest.
You did a video about it.
It's been over a year.
I want to show a piece of that, and I want to compare that to how you might feel about the lockdowns and everything today.
So let's play that clip, Justin.
In that the anti-lockdown crowd, they're concerned about jobs and family finances and paying rent and in some cases government overreach, as demonstrated by the nonsensical fines that have been given out by bylaw officers and the nonsensical closure of parks.
We've now got a $180 billion deficit to deal with.
And that was the figure from a couple weeks ago, so it's surely more now.
So how is this deficit going to affect the quality of life for the next generations of citizens who will be the ones responsible for paying that off?
A year later, Lindsay Shepard, have we changed our feelings about it at all?
Are you more anti-lockdown?
Has the mental health and monetary effects gotten worse?
They have.
Yeah, you know, I'm pretty proud that that aged well.
I think it was, it's risky because I think I started speaking out in March or April 2020 about being anti-lockdown.
And at that point, it's kind of more of a risk because there wasn't as much research out.
There wasn't as much data.
And so you could get COVID and everyone would laugh at you.
And if you died from COVID, people would probably think it's funny.
But I'm lucky.
I'm proud that those clips aged well.
And I think more people have actually become anti-lockdown for sure over the past year.
I was listening to one of Bonnie Henry's conferences the other day, who's the chief medical officer in BC.
And it's crazy how over a year later, she's saying the exact same things.
You know, she says, still stay home.
And she said, you know, you can't travel from one suburb in the lower mainland of BC to another suburb.
It's just, I can't believe people are obeying it.
I mean, we're a year on now.
Even California is opening up.
Quebec and Ontario are very harshly locked down, Quebec more so.
I can list off states off the top of my head that are open, even with mask-free.
Why is Canada so far behind, do you think?
I don't know.
I don't get it.
And sometimes I think, you know, I'm someone who's been to multiple anti-lockdown rallies.
I'm shaking hands with people.
I'm not wearing a mask.
Neither is anyone else.
And I did a video about this for True North.
I emailed the health departments of the provinces that have seen lots of anti-lockdown rallies with hundreds or even thousands of people.
And I said, what kind of case numbers are you seeing from these rallies?
And I'm pretty sure the answer is zero.
They wouldn't respond, or they would just say they can't collect the data because you know the people who would go to those protests will lie about they won't get tested and stuff like that.
But yeah, I have to wonder.
I mean, I'm someone who has been living my life almost completely the same, except for what I'm literally not allowed to do, like cross the border into the U.S. Why am I not dead yet?
Why do I not know a single person with COVID?
Why I've been seeing my in-laws, my family on all sides?
Why do none of us have COVID?
Why are none of us dead?
You sound like a career criminal to me.
You sound like a career criminal, is what it's come to.
Do you support any of the political parties' responses in Canada to all of this?
Well, I was happy to see the end the lockdown caucus.
So I think the three main figures are Maxine Bernier of the PPC, Derek Sloan, who is now an independent MP, kicked out of the Conservative Party, of course, and Ontario MPP Randy Hillier.
I mean, yeah, I support that.
That's good to see.
Are any of the politicians in my local area doing anything?
Doesn't look like it.
Okay, and I would have to agree.
The same ones keep coming up again and again.
Maxine Bernier, Derek Sloan, Randy Hillier.
I think those are the only three politicians we can point to that have gone to different rallies, gone to different events.
Sloan was at the church.
Bernier's talking about Montreal.
So it seems like it's not widespread.
It seems like the messaging has been the same through the Liberals and Conservative Parties.
The NDP just want perpetual lockdowns with free stuff, so we don't even need to mention them.
But I agree, it's not that simple in terms of who can I point to that's going to support my views on this, even though I'd say at least 25% of the country is probably anti-lockdown.
There's not even 25% of the support from politicians, and nor is the Conservative Party actually mention anything about it other than wanting to commission a study about the effects of it or how it was dealt with.
Okay, Lindsay now you're free to you can eat while we talk You can throw stuff at the camera.
I always encourage that.
Is there anyone who you specifically support?
You mentioned those three people.
Do you throw your hat in with them on at least most of what they talk about?
Or is there any other politicians that we're missing that you specifically support?
So in general, I've never been very inspired by any Canadian politician.
And I think it's because to be a politician in Canada, you have to be someone who plays the rules.
You can't really have any kind of edge.
You have to be quite establishment.
And so I've just never felt myself very, you know, attracted towards that.
I would like to see someone come out who has a little more edge or has had a hard time growing up, like something like that, who came out of a difficult life circumstance rather than just being a lawyer or a banker.
So yeah, but that being said, who do I find myself most aligned with right now?
Yeah, Maxine Bernier and Derek Sloan, probably.
I think the closer you're getting to Edgy is Derek Sloan.
I mean, Maxine Bernier with the Quebecois accent, I can comment on this.
I'm French myself.
It doesn't sound so edgy, but Derek Sloan, I think, was the closest we were going to get, especially in the Conservative Party, to saying anything that was out of line.
Now, comment on this as much or as little as you want, but are you as disappointed as I am in the Conservative Party's inability to speak out against lockdowns, against freedoms being taken away?
There's barely a mention of the quarantine facilities, the forced confinement, I'll call it.
How do you feel about their response to that from that party?
Yeah, it seems like what they're really focusing on is, you know, how slow the vaccine response is.
And, you know, you see the media talking about how slow the vaccines are coming into Canada.
I don't care about the vaccine at all.
I don't care.
Thank you.
I don't care to get it.
I don't care who gets it first.
So when I see all this squabbling about like, oh, we want to get it first.
We want this.
We want this.
I just, I look at the headline.
I've never, I don't, I haven't opened many articles about that stuff because it's just squabbling.
But as for the CPC, yeah, I think they're very disappointing.
You know, with Derek Sloan being kicked out of the party or getting a donation from Frederick Fromm, you know, like a fake name of thousands of donations.
It's just, and wasn't Aaron O'Toole supposed to speak out against cancel culture?
Aaron Tool has not spoken out against anything in the past year.
And I'm sorry to cut you off there, but he talked such a big game about the CBC and now he, and he's going to cancel China.
I don't predict him canceling anything.
I don't think he's going to get elected.
But there's been so many low-hanging fruits about online censorship, about the lockdowns, that he could have just gained so much support.
But it seems like he just keeps going for liberal voters that are never going to vote for him.
Do you agree?
Yeah, I think that's exactly their strategy is bring over liberal voters.
That's their strategy.
And even at the child gender transitioning rally, Barry Neufeld spoke there.
He's the Chilliwack school trustee who spoke out against SOGI 123, which is a radical sex ed program in BC.
And the province is going after his position as trustee.
They've been trying for years to get him out, but it's just not working, which is pretty funny.
And he said at the rally during his speech that the Conservative Party sent him an email or letter revoking his membership.
Any speaking out from the Conservatives or in Ontario, the progressive Conservatives, if we're still calling them that, gets you exiled.
It's really sad.
They don't even have the balls to say definitively one way or the other.
So it's gotten to the point where I don't believe that there's much of a difference between the two major parties.
Could Talk About Jag Meat00:00:44
Jag meat's a whole different story.
We could talk about jag meat all day, but I digress.
Last question to you, Lindsay.
We've got about a minute left.
What kind of messages are you getting in your inbox lately?
Hate, love, news articles.
What's the deep dive into Lindsay's DMs?
I would say mostly just congrats about my book and requests for interviews about my book.
So I would say it's pretty positive right now.
That's not exciting at all, Lindsay Shepard.
All right.
Okay.
Any last words to you?
Nope.
Okay, fine.
You can find her, Lindsay Shepard, on YouTube and New World Hominen on Twitter.