Mark Milke’s The Victim Cult exposes how grievance narratives distort progress, citing 1980s U.S. data where Black married couples with college degrees earned more than white peers and 1981 Canadian census figures showing Japanese-Canadians outperforming European-Canadians. He critiques Indigenous victimhood framing in Canada—like Baby Serenity’s death (2016) or Baby Veronica’s adoption battles—arguing it ignores modern factors like geography and education, prioritizing cultural collectivism over child welfare. Contrasting this with East Asian immigrants’ success by the 1930s through entrepreneurship and integration, Milke warns that perpetual blame undermines agency, while historical modesty fosters shared solutions. Sheila Gunn-Reed ties this to Rebel News’ push for premium subscriptions, framing grievance culture as a barrier to individual advancement. [Automatically generated summary]
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Is grievance culture a new thing?
My guest tonight argues it is as old as time.
I'm Sheila Gunn-Reed and you're watching The Gunn Show.
I want to read you an excerpt of a book I've recently finished.
Are you ready?
I'm ready.
By the 1980s, black married couples with college educations already earned slightly more than white college-educated married couples in the United States.
In 1981, in Canada, earnings for those with Japanese ancestry were 13% higher than those of European ancestry.
By the late 2000s, Americans had elected a president who was half black and half white.
As the author writes, that's progress.
Now, if you submerged yourself in left-wing media or even just regular mainstream media, you would never know the statistics I read to you just now.
So why is society so invested in this hierarchy of victimhood and offering reasons why people can't accomplish things when we know accomplishments and progress are taking place all around us every single day?
And aren't we really setting up entire generations of people to fail when we feed them into a victimhood mentality?
The book I just read those statistics to you from is called The Victim Cult, How the Culture of Blame Hurts Everyone and Wrecks Civilizations.
Now, it is full of statistics and history, and it is meticulously footnoted.
It's an examination of worldwide grievance culture, past and present.
And the author of this amazing book, Mark Mielke, joins me in an interview we recorded earlier.
Joining me now is the author of that book, The Victim Cult, How the Culture of Blame Hurts Everyone and Wrecks Civilizations.
Hey Mark, thanks for joining me.
I guess my first question for you is, what exactly is the victim cult?
Well, think about people who have had something awful happen to them or people who merely think that.
And then right or wrong, you know, they may have been harmed, they may not have been harmed, but they obsess over it.
And we know in our personal lives, when I was writing the book, I'd ask people, have you ever met who thinks like a victim?
And people would go, yeah, you know, I should tell you about my family or my friend or someone at work.
Well, multiply that by millions.
And literally, you get what I describe as victim cult.
So kind of an obsession over a real harm.
Or, you know, sometimes, you know, people make this stuff up in their heads or they link to the wrong effect to the wrong cause.
So the victim cult is really about people we meet every day, but multiplied by millions and then how that affects our societies, our country, and even international relations.
So I think this is probably the first book of its kind that is sort of through a Canadian lens.
What prompted you to write this book?
Mistakes in Aboriginal Policy00:15:33
Because I think it's sort of apropos for the time that we're in right now.
And I don't know if that's, you know, after reading the book, I was, you know, maybe it's just because of the 24-hour news cycle and social media, but you often feel like, boy, things are sure awful out there and everybody thinks they're a victim.
But you look at this through both a Canadian lens and a historical lens.
And it's sort of always been this way, hasn't it?
It has.
But the Canadian sort of spur for this, I mean, the spur for the book really was I've done a lot of policy work over the years on Aboriginal issues.
And what I found continually was some, and I emphasize some, not all, but some First Nations leaders in Canada relentlessly portray themselves as victims.
Now, historically, in some cases, select cases, many cases, they were, or their ancestors were, and that's an important distinction.
We are not our ancestors.
But the problem with that is for some First Nations leaders to continually blame everything on 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 150 years ago, there's a two-fold problem with that.
One, by looking back, you don't look forward.
And that's a problem because how do you succeed if you're always looking in the rearview mirror, right?
You end up in a collision, you end up in an accident, so to speak.
The other problem with it is you really link the wrong cause to modern day effects.
So let me give you a clear example.
We often hear today that the problem with Aboriginal Canadians' incomes or social economic indicators has everything to do with perhaps what happened 50 years ago or 100 years ago, in some cases residential schools.
And without downplaying the effect of, say, sexual and physical abuse on reserves, which I don't think we should, to blame everything in residential schools or to blame everything on reserves is actually a mistake, except in this way, which some First Nations leaders don't get or are not honest about.
Many First Nations reserves are in the middle of nowhere.
If you want to look for a modern day reason why some Aboriginals, specifically First Nations, right, what used to be called Treaty Indians, you know, for federal purposes, are not succeeding, it's because they're on a reserve in the middle of nowhere.
And geography explains a lot more than allegations of racism or colonialism or allegations that somehow Canada was a genocidal state akin to Nazi Germany, which actually a report earlier this year came out and alleged just that, right?
So I take that apart.
And to give you a clear example of where Aboriginals can succeed in this country, I looked at census data from the last census.
And very simply, if you look at young Aboriginals ages 25 to 34 with a university education, they have the exact same incomes, in fact, slightly higher than other Canadians.
And why is that?
Because they are more likely to be in cities.
They're not stuck in a reserve in the middle of nowhere.
And so their incomes are equal to those of other Canadians.
And if you have a PhD as an Aboriginal between 25 and 34, you earn about 3,000 more every year than other Canadians.
So the problem really is, and the good thing about this is what that points to is the problem is geography and education, and both those are correctable.
But to make links as people do to 50 or 100 years ago, when First Nations leaders do that, that's the problem.
They're actually not linking up the right cause to the effect.
And that's unfortunate because it can hold people back.
And so that's kind of where the book started was this observation that First Nations leaders often make these mistakes, as do others.
And that harms Aboriginal Canadians more than anybody else.
You know, I finished your book finally last night.
I sort of jumped around all over the place when I was reading the book, leaping back and forth, as things became timely, sort of in the news cycle and in the culture war.
And now that you're talking about Indigenous issues, you actually dig quite deep into how well-intentioned laws designed to help Indigenous people can actually harm them.
And you pointed to two instances of Indigenous children, baby Serenity and Baby Veronica, who just, because of policies designed to undo colonialism, it actually ended up harming these children and shifting the blame off the adults involved in their stories onto colonialism.
And it didn't really address the real injustice happening to these little girls at hand.
Right.
So in that part of the victim cult, I went into this notion of: okay, if there's a problem in my life or in the tribe that I belong to, and by tribe, I mean whatever collective you belong to, right?
We all have some tribe.
We may play golf with friends.
We may have, you know, be part of a nation that we're proud of, whatever your tribe happens to be.
I mean that in very, you know, in a wide sense in the book.
Right.
But I went into the notion of culture in the victim cult because people often think, okay, especially if they've been harmed or their society's been harmed, what we need to do is restore pure culture.
For reasons that I go into in other chapters, Germans thought this in the early 19th century, and that was a mistake.
Pure culture won't save you.
In fact, learning from other cultures, integrating with other people voluntarily can help your culture learn from others and succeed.
But the problem with this notion of pure culture, and some First Nations, again, are deep into this in Canada and the United States, is you're trying to correct some wrongs that happened 50 years ago.
So, for example, people have heard of the scoop, where Aboriginal children in both Canada and the United States were taken out of their parents' homes, sometimes for entirely legitimate reasons.
They couldn't care for them for whatever reason, and sometimes not.
But we don't know whether that's 90% of the kids or 10%.
We really don't.
At least I couldn't find the statistics, and a lot of the records have disappeared because they were paper.
The problem, though, with looking back and saying, okay, there were some historic harms done to some Aboriginal children in Canada and the United States.
And now what we need to do to correct that, sorry, let me back up.
What was the problem back then?
The problem is when this was happening unjustly and kids weren't allowed to be back with their parents, even if their parents care for them again, and Aboriginal kids were too quickly adopted out, perhaps, right?
That's the argument that did happen in some cases.
The problem back then was what?
State agencies weren't looking at people as individuals.
They were treating them as part of some sort of collective.
Well, we make the same mistake today, 50 years later, when, through well-intentioned legislation in the United States and well-intentioned policy in Canada, the determining factor as an Aboriginal kid where you should be is if someone shares your bloodline.
Sorry, more than that.
It's not just family.
It's, you know, someone shares your community.
So you come from a First Nation, and the preference really is to get you back to that reserve.
Now, that can be fine if you're going back to grandpa and grandma if your parents can't care for you.
But that's a bit different than saying, wherever possible, we're going to make sure you have a cultural connection to your reserve or your First Nation.
And that's going to trump everything else.
Now, you know, day to day, bureaucrats and others will say, well, no, we would never put a children in that situation.
But what I detail in the victim cult is, in fact, in Alberta, they did that with a little girl called Serenity.
They put her in that situation, despite warning signs all over the place that they shouldn't have been doing that.
This little girl ended up being sexually and physically abused and dying at age four years old somewhere in central Alberta.
The government never made clear where.
She was there with grandparents, but they didn't, who were checked out, but the other people in the home and were never checked out, for example, criminal records or a possible past of sexual abuse.
So you have this little girl in this home that was abused physically and sexually at the end of it all and had a concussion which sent her to the hospital and she finally died from that.
I mean, this is a tragedy, but she was there because of this preference for kind of cultural kinship.
Now, again, look, we can understand that the first priority should always be to get kids back with their parents.
That's commonsensical.
But there's this kind of romantic notion that, well, you know, a village will raise a child.
100 people can't really raise a child.
And we need to be a little less naïve.
You know, there are some not great people in all societies, and you want to protect kids from that.
So I went into this example because it's a good example of, you know, and the American example, it's a good example of where because you've got, you know, a certain bloodline, you should forever be attached to that collective.
And in the case of the United States, the example I gave from Oklahoma was a little girl given up for adoption, Veronica.
The father didn't want anything to do with her when his ex-girlfriend was pregnant.
He made that clear.
She gives birth, gives away the child, the daughter, to a couple from another state.
And then the father decides he wants to be involved.
This leads to basically three years, four years of court fights.
She's with her adopted parents for two years.
Then she's with her father who had never seen her before.
The problem with this is she's like 1.2% Cherokee.
She's 50% Hispanic.
But think about the absurdity of this.
We're starting to debate whether a child who the father initially didn't want should be what?
Given to a certain collective or the preference of that collective should matter over her 50% bloodline versus her 1.2% bloodline.
Like, how do we get started with this?
Is the problem, right?
And part of it is this fascination, romanticization with culture.
Yeah, and I mean, in the end, when you put this, like you say, the victim cult and this romanticization of culture over and above the welfare of children, it's the children who pay.
And I guess society as a whole, when we are refusing to care for the needs of our most vulnerable, because their health and safety is somewhere down on the totem pole underneath a culture and this blood quantum that we use to appoint caregivers for children.
And it's truly bizarre.
You've actually the problem really, and this is what I show in the victim cult, is that, again, we treat people not as individuals, but as part of some collectives.
And collectives, there's no other way to put it.
Collectives eventually demand a sacrifice.
And my view is that individuals should always tromponise in law and policy.
Why?
Because look, if a parent wants to give their child to whomever, I mean, since when does race and blood come into it, right?
Ethnicity.
I mean, this is how we've developed in the last two centuries in Western societies.
And the only exception is when it comes to Indigenous children.
But in essence, what we're saying is it doesn't matter what you as a parent want for your child.
And in both Veronica's case, in both Serenity's case, the parents wanted something different than the First Nations collective.
And they were told by the bureaucracy and by the courts, no, you can't have that.
How do we get to this point where the parents are not the primary deciders of where a child should go?
And so it is this fascination with culture and the collective, which is very dangerous.
And it's one of the reasons in the book I go into the sort of the German notion of collectivism and culture and how that became very, very dangerous long before kind of race consciousness and race purity became evident in Germany in the early 1900s.
Now, we've sort of talked about the indigenous cultures and how this collectivist notion of culture is harming Indigenous cultures.
But let's talk about the flip side of this.
You actually talk about the Pacific class.
So immigrants to North America who were largely Asian, Chinese, and Japanese, who are doing much better than the, I guess, the immigrant class around them.
And that's being exhibited in college rates.
And now that you mentioned it, you pointed out how if you are Indigenous and you get a college degree, that's your way out.
That's really been the way out for this Pacific class of immigrants.
Right.
So both for Canadians and Americans.
I mean, one of the things I wanted to do in the victim cult was show also how you escape the victim cult, personally or as a society.
And there are examples of First Nations in Canada that do very well because they're attuned to the economy.
They take advantage of their location.
I grew up in Kelowna.
The West Bank First Nation is a great example of this, as is a studio, which has wineries and a hotel.
But to the specific example you mentioned in the victim cult from the United States, there were some great data available on how did Asian Americans succeed despite the odds.
And despite the notion, very popular kind of in victim circles, in victim thinking circles, I can't succeed because I was picked on and my ancestors were picked on in the past.
Well, that's not necessarily true.
And we have a great example from early arrivals to the United States, to the West Coast and the rest of the country.
So Chinese, you know, people who became Chinese Americans, but who started to immigrate really in the late 1840s with the California gold rush.
20 years later, 30 years later, the Japanese start to arrive in large numbers to the West Coast of the United States, to San Francisco, for example, and other places.
And both cohorts are heavily discriminated against.
I mean, there's no two ways about it.
Initially, kind of welcome in the early 1950s, but then the public opinion turns, and there's lots of racist laws, racist legislation, racist policy against Chinese, the people who become Chinese Americans and their kids and grandkids.
Same thing with the Japanese arrivals.
Okay, so what happened?
How did they deal with this?
Well, first of all, they never wanted to stay in some sort of cultural ghettos, right?
Because that's what the racists wanted.
So Chinese Americans and Japanese Americans, you see, starting pretty early on in the 1850s, for Chinese Americans in particular, say, we're going to fight back.
I don't know if it was conscious, but they simply thought this is supposed to be the land of opportunity.
So there's a great letter, for example, from a Chinese American in the late 1850s.
He writes to the California governor, John Engler, at the time.
John Engler says, you know, America is only for white people.
Well, this newly arrived Chinese person in the United States, who's very eloquent, writes to the governor, says, this proposition is false in the extreme and you know it and cites the Constitution and basically stands up for himself.
And you see this again and again in the relationship between Chinese and Japanese Americans to the state.
And also, that goes on for really a century because they're discriminated against between 1850 and 1950, roughly, institutionally.
You also see them make efforts to integrate in other ways.
You see an emphasis on entrepreneurship, in part because Japanese and Chinese Americans aren't allowed in some cases to be in the professions.
Efforts to Succeed Despite Discrimination00:02:26
You also see the importance of education.
And what I found in researching the victim cult, some fascinating statistics from 1910, 1920, 1930.
In 1910, Japanese Americans and Chinese Americans, their children are attending and graduating from high school and college, as the Americans call it, at rates lower than white Americans.
By 1920, though, in 1930, their attendance rates and their graduation rates are significantly higher than white Americans, right?
The majority population at this time in the United States.
And what this shows is, and this sets the ground for future success, but what this shows is, is they are starting to succeed despite the heavy discrimination.
And people enthralled by kind of victimization theory that you can never succeed until every institutional wrong is corrected, including ones from 50 or 100 years ago, people who think you can kind of correct for that in modern day.
Well, this kind of, you know, rebuts the notion that, you know, once a victim, forever a victim.
Japanese and Chinese Americans never thought of themselves that way.
They emphasized education.
And they did this, by the way, and they started to succeed in the most discriminatory period in American history.
Remember that in 1924, Washington, the federal government, enacts legislation to ban most immigration, right?
It just cuts it off at the knees.
And Asian immigrants from East Asia in particular are discriminated against heavily.
They're pretty much banned for 30 years.
So despite that, Japanese and Chinese Americans are starting to succeed wherever they possibly can.
It's because they're entrepreneurs, because they value education, and they keep pushing ahead for integration and keep fighting back.
So all of those four factors are why East Asian immigrants in the United States were able to carve out some success despite a highly prejudiced society institutionally and personally.
But it's also why, you know, starting in the 1970s, you know, it started to become evident that they were succeeding wildly, far better than the average American.
But the statistics I discover for the victim cult show that they were starting to succeed 50 years earlier than that because of their tenacity and their strategy, whether that strategy were conscious or not.
They just kept barely darn ahead.
And frankly, they made America live up to her ideals of equality and liberty for all.
And so they actually helped renew civilization.
And that's part of the theme in the victim cult: the victim cults can wreck civilizations.
Renewing Civilization Through Modesty00:07:24
But if you stop being a victim and say, okay, I'm not going to forego my rights as a citizen in this republic or in Canada, in our dominion, I'm going to push ahead.
And this actually helps renew civilizations and helps us live up to our ideals.
And I think that's a terrific thing.
I have, I guess, probably the most important question I have for you today.
Since this is so now embedded in our society, this hierarchy of victimhood, and it's involved in our schools and our education system from, you know, from quite little, all the way up through university.
How do we come back from this?
I guess, how do we convince this younger generation, especially who's been taught about class hierarchies and privilege and power dynamics as just a way of life?
How do we sort of right the ship?
I think part of it is just keep telling the truth, try and introduce them to real history.
Try and place some questions in their mind.
So let me give you a good example of this.
I gave you one statistic already, right?
We know that on average, Aboriginal Canadians do worse on statistical outcomes, economics, income, education, the average, you know.
But when you get into apple-apple comparisons, the one I mentioned earlier, young adults, you see the same statistical outcomes on incomes and other statistics.
So that's terrific.
So I think just pointing out that there may be more to this than meets the eye when you just look at averages.
You always have to dig down in the data.
I mean, that's a bit policy walkish, but let me put this another way.
Let's introduce history, real history as well, and let's ask some questions.
So I quote Thomas Sowell in the book.
Thomas Sowell is a famous African-American economist who disagrees with this notion of victimization as well, or that historic wrongs have as much effect upon incomes and success today as some people claim.
So for example, Thomas Sowell looks at Black American families succeeding at Washington, D.C. schools in the 1890s, 20 years after the Civil War, right?
Sorry, 30 years after the Civil War ends.
And he goes to the 1930s and says Black American families are mostly together.
You can't blame bad outcomes in the 1970s and when Black American families start to come apart in large percentages.
You can't blame that on slavery since they were together in the 1930s by and large.
And so it's a matter of linking up the right historical cause or present-day cause to the observed effect.
But I think as well, part of it is, you know, maybe getting some modesty.
I have a chapter in the book that I was initially going to entitle, you know, All Our Ancestors Were Bastards.
I instead toned it down a bit.
But the basic gist of that chapter is if you look into history, you find out everybody's ancestors were victims.
You know, it doesn't matter whether you're Arab African or white European or if you're from East Asia.
All of our ancestors were pretty awful to each other.
And when you really dive down into that, you go, I have a lot more common with everybody else today.
And it doesn't matter if I was born in Dubai or Denver or Paris or Toronto.
I have a lot more in common with other people around the world today who are alive than my ancestors of 100 or 200 years ago.
None of us really would have cared to hang around them and what they did to each other or approved of what they did to each other.
So I think a little sort of historical modesty about our own tribe, if I can put it that way, is helpful.
And then, yeah, just some historical awareness as well.
I mean, look, everybody, victims are created daily, and I don't deny that in the book.
I think the danger, though, and the benefit of getting a grasp on history is that you can then have a little bit of modesty about this and you can be a little more understanding of other people and you can find commonalities.
And I think that's what's been lost.
We've kind of retreated into the collective cult and the victim cult.
And that becomes really dangerous because it basically says, you harmed my tribe 50 or 100 years ago, or you harmed me yesterday, and I want to take revenge.
Well, if you understand that almost everybody's tribe was victimized or was doing the victimization in history, then you start to look for solutions.
I mean, one of the forward to the book is written by Ellis Ross.
Ellis Ross is a former chief elected counselor for the Heis of First Nation on the coast of British Columbia.
I heard Ellis speak in Calgary earlier this spring, and I wanted to write the forward after, heard him speak, because Ellis basically said, Look, when I started to look into the archives for the Heis of First Nation, he found awful things that were done to the Heislaw, right?
There's no two ways about it.
It was apartheid.
But he said, look, my first impulse was revenge, and then my second impulse was, that's not going to help anyone.
How do we look ahead?
How do we figure out how to change this for, in his particular instance, for the highs of the people there?
And so he looked for remedies and not chronic blame.
So I think historical modesty and then also thinking about how we're going to make everyone succeed.
I think that's how you get away.
That's how you can solve the victim cult.
So teach people empathy.
Teach them about history.
Teach them to question their assumptions about the wrong cause and effect links and ask them to really think about what makes people succeed now.
Maybe here's another way to look at it.
It's really easy to blame the past.
It's really easy, for example, to look at colonialism in North America or anywhere, or nations that attack other nations and draw out a grievance narrative forever.
And that's how we continue problems around the world.
I was in Hong Kong, though, six years ago.
And without exception, I was there to do some research for think tank and talk to business people, to politicians, to civil servants.
And with almost without exception, what they said to me, and this is in Hong Kong, this is not, you know, this is not London.
It's not New York.
It's Hong Kong, which is what, you know, mainly Chinese origin.
And they said to me, Mark, the three things we want to keep, capitalism, the rule of law, including the British legal code, and our anti-corruption efforts.
And all this was vis-a-vis China proper, Beijing.
They were worried about losing this, right, to the regime in Beijing, and for good reason.
So, you know, so what that told me was they grasped, and for very good reason, because they've been next door to China for 150 years, first under the British, and then the last 20 years, obviously, under Chinese rule.
They get what's at stake.
And so they took the best from the British colonial period and left whatever perhaps they don't like.
And this summer, students protesting against Beijing raised a British flag.
Why did they do that?
Because they're not victims of colonialism, but they valued capitalism, the rule of law, and anti-corruption efforts.
Meanwhile, in the West, we've got people who are chronic victims of what happened 50 years ago, 150 years ago.
To me, it was incredibly encouraging that you've got a population that is mostly non-British, obviously, in Hong Kong, saying, we get how you succeed.
And to me, that was both a warning to the West, but a positive possibility for everyone if they can get past their victim thinking.
Thank You, Non-Victims00:03:01
Mark, thank you for being so generous with your time.
I guess my last question for you is, how did people get a copy of this really great book?
Start with your local bookstore.
You can find it at chapters.
You can find it at Amazon.ca.
If all else fails, look at markmelke.com.
You can find it there as well.
Great, Mark.
Thank you so much.
First, for writing this book, for me as someone who grew up poor and then had a baby at 19, it really resonated with me.
It's one of those things where you realize that the recipe to get out of historical wrongs, it's not complicated, but it might be hard.
Family, education, hard work.
It works for everybody.
And so I'm really glad to see that finally there's a book like this written through a Canadian lens.
Thank you, Sheila.
And it was great to chat.
And you're right, the family experience matters.
I mean, very briefly, my grandmother and grandfather had a tough time as well.
You know, when I think back to they came from Ukraine, they came from Poland, the late 1920s.
They had some very tough times as I recount in part of the book.
But like your story, they found a way to get past it.
And I never remember them, even though they could have thought of themselves as victims, I don't remember them ever getting stuck there.
Throughout their entire lives, they were thankful for Canada, what it offered, and they just ever thought like victims, even though I guess in reality they were.
But they looked around the world in Canada and thought, we're really fortunate to be here.
And that's part of the message of the victim cult.
You really don't have to get stuck there as an individual, a family, or a society.
So thank you, Sheila.
Yes, thanks, Mark.
We'll have you back on the show real soon.
Thank you.
Thanks.
You don't have to look very far to find recent Canadian examples of victims.
Perpetual victimhood mentality is the thing that spawned Jessica Jonathan Yaneve upon the world.
You'll recall that's the BC-based transgender activist who claims to need a mobility scooter yet was mobile enough to bash in the head of my colleague David Menzies when David dared ask that individual about his vexatious human rights complaints.
You see, Yaniv claimed that it was his human right to force unwilling estheticians to wax his genitals.
And when he was denied by these women, he claimed to be a victim.
You see, victim culture brought us manipulators who realize that being a victim literally pays if they are able to convince the right human rights tribunal of their victimhood status.
Now, would the world just be a better place all around if all of us appreciated that hard work, good choices, education, and family are a recipe for something much better?
Well, everybody, that's the show for tonight.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
I'll see everybody back here in the same time in the same place next week.