All Episodes
Feb. 1, 2024 - RadixJournal - Richard Spencer
01:09:07
Depeche Mode: Playing the Angel

Richard Spencer and Andrew Jensen review Depeche Mode’s eleventh studio album, Playing the Angel (2004). This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit radixjournal.substack.com/subscribe

| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
I'm not sure what I'm looking for anymore I just know that I'm harder to consult I don't see who I'm trying to be instead of me But the key is a question of control I really like this album,
Playing the Angel, quite a bit.
I would say, yeah, I would say that it's interesting when I think about it.
So I was in graduate school when this album was released, and at Duke.
And this was also the time where Napster had finally fallen to iTunes, maybe not completely, but or rather...
iTunes had adopted the Napster model and the whole CD industry had been destroyed.
Which is, in my opinion, good riddance to the CD industry.
But the least romantic way to listen to music.
So I just remember this was the first Depeche Mode album, new Depeche Mode album, that is, that I downloaded.
And Exciter was...
A difficult album.
And it...
I look forward to re-listening to it because I haven't really just sat down and listened to the album, in fact.
And I always just kind of place that one on the back burner of like, ah, yeah, you know, they didn't know who they were and blah, blah, blah.
It's soft rock and it's too digital, etc., etc.
But I look forward to re-listening to it, actually.
But this was an album that...
I loved, I was listening to it all the time on my, you know, not AirPods, earbuds, and I guess my, what are they called again?
iPods, yeah.
My iPods and AirPods.
The Nano, I think, would have been out.
Maybe I'm a little bit...
Yes, the Nano was new.
It was, like, incredible, and you could...
Put it in the small coin pocket of your jeans.
Yes. It was incredible technology.
Yeah, I think I was still on MP3s at this time.
But yeah, just to have 100 songs was badass.
Yeah, it was actually incredible when you think about it.
because anyway, this is a return to form.
The Devils Thrive on the Drive that is fuel All this running around, well it's getting me down Just give me a pain that I'm used to I don't need to believe
all the dreams you can see You just need to achieve something to ring true I don't need to believe all the dreams you can see
It has some great anthem-like songs.
Precious being an excellent example.
Also, Martyr, you know, it's a bit on the nose.
I actually read when I was doing some kind of light research on this.
There are no books or anything like this now that we're kind of late in the game on Depeche Mode.
Everyone wants to go back to the 80s and discover the secrets.
Martyr was part of the album, and they cut it because it was too poppy.
And it is a bit on the nose.
But it's a fun pop song from Depeche Mode.
I've been a model for love And I will die in the flames As I draw my last breath As I'm closing
on death I will call out your name I've been a model for love Nailed up on the cross While you're having
your fun As the damage is done I'm assessing the cost I knew what I was letting myself be for
I knew that I could never even score *music*
Suffer Well, A Pain That I'm Used To.
John the Revelator might even be my favorite song.
And it's very Debeche Mode.
It is more mature.
But they're not pretending like they're 25. But they're also not acting 50 as well.
It's also more raw, if that's the right word.
I think this was the best album that...
Hillier produced.
Because I think Hillier, no doubt consciously, wanted to get them back to where they were.
Get away from too digital or synthesized.
Get them back to what really sounds like Depeche Mode that will please the fans, etc.
And I think he accomplished that best on this album.
It doesn't leave you disappointed like Sounds of the Universe.
It's not a...
Interesting, if kind of failed attempt at blues like Delta Machine.
And in fact, it has the blues in this, but it actually does it in a very Depeche Mode way.
Like John the Revelator is actually going back to this old blues song by Blind Willie Johnson.
Yeah, I mean, pretty remarkable, but they totally imbibed it and made it their own.
And so they're not just trying to sing the blues like they were in Delta Machine.
Well, who's that riding?
Johnny Revelator.
Who's that riding?
Johnny Revelator.
Who's that riding?
Johnny Revelator.
Hey, book of the suppers.
Tell me what's Johnny Revelator.
Johnny Revelator.
What's Johnny Revelator?
Johnny Revelator.
What's Johnny Revelator?
Johnny Revelator.
Hey, book of the suppers.
Johnny Revelator.
Put him in an elevator.
Take him up to the high side.
Take him up to the top.
Where the mountain is dark.
Let him tell his booker lies.
Johnny Revelator.
He's a smooth operator.
It's time we cut him down to size.
Take him by the hand.
Put him on the stand.
And he sees out of bars.
But claiming God, that's his only right.
He's stealing a God from Israelite.
And, you know, I sat down and I actually listened to it on vinyl, which is kind of funny because maybe I should have found my old iPod and downloaded music and put it on the iPod and listened to it on really bad earbuds so that I could,
you know...
Relive the experience.
I would actually recommend against doing that.
We can get into a little bit why later.
Oh, okay.
Interesting. But yeah, I listened to it on vinyl and it was really banging from the very beginning.
The first whole record is just all great.
And I like the second record as well, which has more kind of B-side-y type tracks.
I mean, I read that they cut Marder because it was too poppy.
That's interesting that they didn't want to be too on the nose or too obvious and sing about, you know, I'm a martyr for love and I'm calling out your name as I'm going up in flame and all that.
That was just a little too easy in a way.
It was almost like a parody of a Depeche Mode song, which is, you know, maybe a criticism you could beg.
But they wanted an interesting album.
They wanted a darker album.
They wanted a raw album in the sense it's a synth album.
There's not a lot of guitar on it at all, but it feels like an album that could have been produced between Music for the Masses and Violator, maybe.
I would say, in terms of late period Depeche Mode, definitely in terms of Ben Hillier being the producer, this is the best.
Those are my opening thoughts.
Yeah, I'd have to co-sign just about every single One of them.
I think the album...
I'm going to go out on a limb here just a little bit.
I think the album is like a Martin album.
Kind of like Black Celebration or Ultra or Broken Frame were.
In the sense that the album feels as though Martin Gore was the driving force as the songwriter.
Obviously. But also as the singer and sort of like the developer of the emotion of the album.
Okay? I think just the term or phrase, playing the angels, sums up Gore's songwriting style in one phrase.
And this time, just personally for him, was a pretty tumultuous time because it was in the midst of his divorce, I should say.
And his alcoholism had sort of peaked.
And after this album, he gets clean.
But it's also...
Yeah, and also it's like a Dave.
It's still like Dave's probably best song he's made with the band Suffer Well is on here too.
So I'm not like totally discounting it, but I think there are definitely some autobiographical elements to this album.
But what's interesting too about Dave's bit in this album or his songs is that I was watching some interviews from around this time and he was saying that like He finally felt as though he was part of the band.
He was contributing something, which is a bit harsh and self-deprecating, but I think that says a lot about...
He was basically the singer and the showman, with Martin obviously being the ideas guy and Alan the craftsman and Fletch a foosball player or whatever.
But it speaks to their specialization.
But anyway, on this album, I think the majority of the songs are at least good.
It suffers from what a lot of albums in the 21st and before Century suffer from, in that it's a little bit too loud, a little bit too compressed, which results in too much and not enough.
It's too much in the volume sense.
You're just hearing a super strong bass or bass drum and snare, but you're not hearing the little subtleties because this stuff is getting crowded out in the mix.
And it doesn't allow for the record to breathe or whatever.
And that was a popular criticism, actually.
And that's why I say that listening to it on an iPod or listening to it digitally is not...
It's probably not as good of an idea.
And there was actually a fan or a critic who compared the vinyl to the CD version.
He could show you in, like, sound waves just how over-compressed the CD version of Playing the Angel was.
And, yeah, I can send it to you if you're interested after the podcast.
But, like, it just shows, like, he took just Precious and he compared CD to vinyl.
And he was basically saying, like, look, I'm not, like, a super vinyl head or whatever, but let's just see if...
This, there's anything, if any of this has any truth to it.
So he compared them and like, he took Precious from both CD and analog.
And the CD was just like, the whole, it was just off the charts, just too compressed, too loud and just too much, basically.
Like, I guess the word might be like over normalized, like making a sound as loud as it can be without peaking, but like, it's still peaking, if that makes sense.
But other than that, I think this is an excellent album.
The songs are, like, very energetic, considering their age and considering a lot of the material on it.
The average, like, BPM is, like, 120, which is, like, mint, like, dance records, you know?
One criticism I'll make is that it's a little bit front-heavy.
Not all the singles are in the front, but in a way, that might make this album, like, the best intro to Depeche Mode.
Like, if I...
I was playing Depeche Mode to somebody.
I might play this one first had they never heard of the band before.
Yeah. Now, let me offer some criticisms here.
So, the subtitle of Black Celebration is songs in our so-called space age or something like that.
And as we noted, it doesn't...
Makes sense.
Exactly. Not all albums have a subtitle.
This one does.
It's Pain and Suffering in Various Tempos.
And... You know, Suffer Well, A Pain That I'm Used To, Martyr for Love, The Sinner in Me, Damaged People.
What I'm getting at is...
There almost is a quality of self-parody here.
If you were to offer a parody of Depeche Mode, it would be pain and suffering in various tempos.
And so I'm just saying, again, I'm glad...
They did this, but I'm also glad that they at least are trying something else.
And maybe not even trying something else totally successfully.
But I do feel like this was a culmination of the sound.
You can hear some Violator in there.
You can hear some Ultra in there.
You can hear some Songs of Faith and Devotion in there.
And that's great.
And I love it.
And I agree.
Like, I never even thought of this.
But maybe if you were going to hand an album to someone who's never listened to Depeche Mode, like, this might be a good intro.
I mean, yeah, that makes sense.
But then it also almost borders on, like, self-aware, self-parody.
And I don't think it is that.
But I'm just saying, as they say.
There are some AI-generated Depeche Mode songs out there, as I mentioned a while ago.
And the thing about them is that they actually are pretty good.
I mean, AI music has progressed to some extent, and the programmer can put in these parameters that make it interesting.
And you hear the kind of pain and death and etc.
And there's a kind of a bluesy, catchy phrase and this and that.
But it is hollow.
I think this album, if I were to offer a critical perspective, it's almost bordering on that.
And everything works, but then we also have seen it before, heard it before.
So I don't know.
I feel like if we're going to show our love, we also should bring some criticism to it as well.
It's on that edge of...
Being parody.
Yeah, of course, yeah, co-sign that too.
I think this album, it doesn't require a lot of listens.
That's why I said it's pretty accessible.
The deeper tracks, maybe the second half of the songs require some more listens to where it's fully accessible, I think.
In 2005, you said you're at Duke, so I would have been in late elementary school and early middle school.
I apologize.
I had to.
I remember that time, though, for music.
What did I know?
I was only 11 years old or whatever, but the music was a lot of this emo It was just peak millennial shit.
It was just the used and Taking Back Sunday and Fall Out Boy and all these emo, whiny bands.
I'm not just saying this, but I just did not resonate with at all.
It was just really gay.
I'm thinking of the milieu in which this album came out.
I can see why it went number 7 in the United States, cracked the top 10 in the UK, and was number 1 in a bunch of different countries.
It's not really because this album was so great.
It is good.
It's a good Depeche Mode album.
I'd probably put it near the upper bottom third of their 15 albums.
But yeah, the music at the time was just shit.
And I do agree with you also about Hillier.
This is his best album with Depeche Mode.
It's close to synth rock enough, I'll call it.
I'll call it synth rock, I guess.
All three of his albums with them, the Hillier trilogy.
But yeah, this is an emotional album.
But it's got more maturity now.
I think that's the new theme, especially with a song like Precious.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Precious and fragile things Need special handling My God, what have we done to you?
We always tried to share The tenderest again Thank you.
Things get damaged Things get broken I thought we'd manage But words left unspoken Left
us upwritten There was a little left to give Things get damaged
Yeah, it's an adult song.
I think I mentioned this even on the Memento Mori, but it is a song about divorce and taking care of his child.
Precious and fragile things need special handling.
My God, what have we done to you?
So it's showing concern and guilt.
We always tried to share the tenderest of care.
Now look what we have put you through.
Things get damaged.
Things get broken.
I thought we'd manage, but words left unspoken.
Left us so brittle.
There was so little left to give.
Angels with silver wings.
I mean, should it know suffering?
I mean, it's kind of a dad song in many ways, which is something you wouldn't at all expect from Depeche Mode.
But then it's very authentic to the fact that they're in their late 40s or pushing 50 at this point.
So it makes a lot of sense.
It's true to themselves.
And I forgot if they performed this or not on the last tour.
I'm sure they performed it in some capacity, but it's an anthem.
They formed Precious when I was in Chicago and Detroit.
I know they did in Chicago.
Okay. I think they did as well when I saw them in Vegas.
But yeah, it's a big anthem number.
I mean, it's right up there with Enjoy the Silence and other things.
I mean, it is rocking.
It's, you know, etc.
Everyone's singing along.
It's hugely catchy, epic.
They did that on this album.
And I'm not sure they don't have anything like that on Delta Machine or Sounds of the Universe.
Or really Momentum War.
I mean, maybe a little bit.
But nothing quite like this, which is just this classic Depeche Mode number.
And it's about divorce, which is a kind of pain, although maybe a less existential pain or suffering or nihilism that they've sung about in the past.
They really nailed that.
Even the next song that follows that macro, see the microcosm and macrovision, our bodies moving with pure precision.
One universal celebration, one evolution, one creation.
It's that oneness and also blending one evolution and one creation, kind of blending Christianity.
Darwinism, the universe, into one.
Is there a little bit of Marianne Williamson going on here?
Correct. Is it a cool song, though?
Do they get away with it?
I would say yes.
Yeah, that song actually is really interesting.
I take the lyrics as like, I don't know, at first I was like, is it about an ecstasy of sex or a religious experience?
Which would be...
Apart from the chorus for Martin.
Overflowing senses, God breathing through me.
And then with the chorus, the See the Microcosm and the Macrovision, I think that's like X personal event happens to you.
It may be for a greater God-like purpose.
Like whatever little thing happens in your microcosm is for a greater, you know, macro vision in God's eyes or something like that.
Music
Overflowing senses.
Heightened awareness.
I hear my blood flow.
I feel its caress.
Whispering Cosmos
Talking right to me Unlimited, endless God breathing through me
See the microcosm In macrovision Our bodies moving With pure precision One universal Celebration
One evolution One creation you
I have a quick little bit that I wanted to share about this song and about the band in general.
So in 2016, Depeche Mode's discography was found to have the most sophisticated lyrics per song of all best-selling music acts of the UK on average in a study by The Mirror.
The determination was made by analyzing the lyrics of more than 6,000 UK musical groups using the Coleman Lau and Smog Indexes, which are used to determine the difficulty of school textbooks.
An average was taken of each song's score in both these tests, with the artist's final score determined by calculating the average score of each artist's full discography.
Depeche Mode's catalog was found to be the most lyrically sophisticated, requiring 10.3 years of education to understand.
Macro's lyrics were found to be the group's most challenging.
Interesting. Yeah, I mean, macro vision and microcosm, even those are, you know, I don't know, undergraduate words?
Sure. Yeah, I don't really know why they picked that one.
Yeah, I don't disagree with this study.
I think that's fairly interesting.
You know, are you able to have multi layers to what you're saying?
You know, are you able to use irony?
Are you able to suggest things without saying them?
I mean, I think that's probably the essence of more intelligent writing.
And you're not just singing about, you know, lovey-dove stuff.
Obladioblada. Obladioblada, yes.
Or Taylor Swift.
Certainly. You're in the bleachers.
You're a cheer captain.
I'm in the bleachers.
Yeah, there's no interpretation to that song.
Like, you don't interpret that song because it's just there.
You know, there's nothing.
It's like a, I don't know, like eating a candy bar or something.
Like, there's no like, you know, wow, layers of flavor.
It's like, no, it's chocolate.
You know, it's just there.
And I think that actually does categorize a lot of pop music, whereas, you know, ambiguity and suggestion, that's something that's very different.
I almost kind of do imagine, like, seeing, you know, like, looking at an atom and then seeing that that in itself is kind of its own universe.
Sure. You know, again, this is, like, stuff that graduate students talk about while high.
So, I mean, it's, you know, we should not...
Get too woo-woo here, but regardless, it reminds me of that scene in Animal House when he's like, so you're saying we could be...
That means that our whole solar system could be like one tiny atom in the fingernail of some other giant being.
Oh, this is too much.
That means that...
One tiny atom in my fingernail could be one little tiny universe.
Could I buy some pot from you?
I mean, again, it's kind of, you know, I don't want to bash it too hard because it is kind of interesting, but it is also kind of fake as well.
I don't know.
I just like the song.
They get away with a little bit of Marianne Williamson in that.
And it's cool.
It shows people trying to think about something.
You know, I mean, it's like one thing that I really liked about what I like about U2 and what I liked about seeing U2 live at the Sphere in Vegas.
I just kind of did a twofer while I was down there for a very short period of time.
Is, you know, whatever you want to say about you two, it's, you know, it's a guitar band, it's pretentious, it's the favorite act of the World Economic Forum, you know, blah, blah, blah.
But they're going for something.
They're not just saying, I want your lovin' or something.
They are trying to imagine...
A biblical music.
And, you know, their last song was actually not even really my favorite song from U2, but it was A Beautiful Day, which is a good song from the, I don't know, either late 90s or early 2000s.
It's a good song, but it's not really a classic.
They did it in this way of there's this flood that encapsulates the sphere, and then finally the animals come out.
It's kind of like after the flood.
And Adam and Eve are mentioned in the song, and the flood is mentioned, the biblical flood, that is.
And so it's an attempt, a genuine attempt, to capture the spirit of something religious.
And that, I think, in itself is just much...
basically just means you're hot or maybe also sweet.
Whenever someone says you're an angel, that's what they mean.
They don't need to evoke an angel from the Bible to express the sentiment.
But you too, on the other hand, are like genuinely attempting to capture something religious.
Now, whether they're successful or not is up to you, but...
I admire the attempt.
I guess that's probably why I like Depeche Mode.
I love Depeche Mode as well.
And that's probably why they won that contest, which seems to be somewhat accurate.
In terms of reading level, are you able to think through what these lyrics are saying, or do you just kind of hear them and get the message, so to speak?
I think they are more sophisticated.
Definitely. I was surprised, though, on the low end, they included the Smiths.
And I don't...
That's wrong.
Yeah. And there's just stuff missing, like...
Whatever you want to say about Sting or The Police, he does have interesting lyrics and he's not even included on the 10 least sophisticated or 10 most.
And if a double-decker boss killed the both of us.
Yeah, like that's highly ironic.
Music
And if you don't get it, you don't get it.
Yeah, it's simple language, but it's very funny and very...
Also kind of genuine and poignant in a way.
To die by your side, the pleasure and the honor would be mine.
It's very funny and ironic and self-deprecating and nihilistic and whatever.
But if you don't get it, you just don't get it.
I think maybe some AI bot wouldn't understand that that's a deeply ironic sentiment.
Yeah. And just because you use simple words doesn't mean that it's unsophisticated or something.
Did you want to talk about John the Revelator?
Because I feel like there's a lot there in that song.
Yeah, sure.
You can go on that one.
Sure. So the first version, as far as I understand, is from this blues singer, guitarist, Blind Willie Johnson.
And the first version that comes out is like April 20th, 1930.
And it's him and his wife.
I don't even know if he's really singing.
He's almost like screaming.
John the Revelator John the Revelator John the Revelator
Something about the seven seals.
And it's just like him, a guitar, and his wife.
It's extremely stripped down.
And it's not...
The chords are not at all like Martin's.
It's like E to A to B7 or whatever.
Standard blues chords.
Martin's version is a lot different.
It's critical of St. John and calling him a smooth operator or con man with a book of lies.
All he ever does is give us pain.
He should bow his head in shame.
Which is like that attack on...
The more, like, self-denying, I don't know, like, Pauline, maybe, aspects of Christianity?
Yeah. As opposed to the Christ-like, you know, nicer, hippie version of Christianity.
But yeah, I think both of the
they're singing about gods that they want to believe in.
Gods that will either like save them or free them in the revelation or just believe.
A nice God.
I think that's what Martin's basic take is.
And I think he's said as much about it.
And that's kind of like the same God that Bono has said in interviews that he believes in.
It's like, I believe in the nice Jesus, basically.
Yeah. I think this is worth going into.
So, yeah.
I agree that it's...
There is a certain criticism or irony on this.
Put him in an elevator.
Take him up to the highest high.
Take him to the top where the mountains stop.
Let him tell his book of lies.
I mean, that's pretty strong.
John the Revelator is a smooth operator.
It's time we cut him down to size.
Take him by the hand and put him on the stand.
Let us hear his alibis.
By claiming God is his holy right, he's stealing a God from the Israelites, stealing a God from the Muslims too.
there is only one God through and through.
John the Revelator, put him in an elevator.
Take him up to the high side.
Take him up to the top where the mountains start.
Let him tell his booker lies.
John the Revelator, he's a smooth operator.
It's time we cut him down to size.
Take him by the hand, put him on the stand.
Let him see who's at the box.
By claiming God, that's his only right.
He's stealing a God from the Israelites.
Stealing a God from the Muslims too.
There is only one God through and through.
Seven lines multiplied by seven multiplied by seven again.
Seven angels, seven trumpets, send them home on the morning train.
Who's that shouting?
John the Revelator.
All he ever gives us is pain.
Who's that shouting?
John the Revelator.
He's about to save the shame.
you
It really reminds me of U2, actually.
And it's interesting because, I mean, if we look at the lyrics of Sunday Bloody Sunday, so it's a really familiar song.
I can't believe the news today.
I can't close my eyes and make it go away.
And it's all this, you know...
Pleas and cries for this event that occurred while Bono was actually quite young.
There was a massacre of British soldiers against Irish.
But this final stanza, sometimes people miss it.
The real battle's just begun.
They're chanting Sunday, Bloody Sunday to claim the victory Jesus won on Sunday, Bloody Sunday.
We eat and drink once a month on Sunday, Sunday, Sunday to claim the victory Jesus won on Sunday,
Sunday One thing that I've noted is that
There's really a strong difference between pre- and post-millennial Christians.
And so you have this book, the Book of Revelation, by John Patmos, apparently or reportedly.
And it's describing Jesus' return.
And he's just this Jesus Christ.
Like, as depicted by Zack Snyder or something.
Like, he comes...
There's one scene where there's, like, this whorish woman, and he, like, imagines putting her and her children in the bed, and just they go up in flames.
I can't even...
I don't think I'm even getting at, like, how violent it is.
It's basically, like, Superman with laser eyes, just, like, slicing people in half.
Jesus. Dark Jesus.
Yes. That's what it is.
And it's very funny because if you read the Gospels, you don't get this at all, of course.
No. But then if you read right-wing Twitter, this is all you get.
This is who Jesus is for them.
He's this fire-breathing maniac with swords coming out of his mouth.
That's actually a direct reference.
And just striking down prostitutes.
You know, leveling cities and stuff like this.
It's what they want, just this, like, ultimate revenge.
And so the book of Revelation has been difficult to understand and treat.
I mean, Martin Luther, it is canonical, but he didn't know what to do with it.
And I don't think it was terribly important for him.
I think there was an attempt to imagine the whore of Babylon as the Pope, but it seems almost just metaphorical.
It's just focused on the Gospels.
It depends on how you read it.
Augustine imagined that that terrible occurrence, the tribulations, already occurred.
Jesus is reigning on the throne as the Alternative Christ that is the Pope.
And so there's, you know, we are experiencing his reign.
And this is a post-millennial type thinking.
Now, the pre-Mills believe that this is about to come.
And this is where you get like the rapture.
You know, the true believing Christians are going to be just raptured up to heaven so they won't have to experience.
All of these tribulations.
And basically, it's a sense of the world getting worse and worse, and just everything is getting horrible.
And soon, brother will be at brother's throat, and the Antichrist will come, and the beast will be unleashed, and there'll be a dragon, and all of this stuff that we know.
Now, do you take that as a metaphor for Christian persecution under Nero or something?
Or do you think of this as a prophecy of what is going to occur at some point?
And it might even be occurring soon.
And I think for you too, Bono has an Anglican and Catholic background.
And so what he's saying in Sunday Bloody Sunday is...
He's not calling upon the apocalypse or something.
He's saying, Jesus won this battle.
To claim the victory, Jesus won.
It's already happened.
And so, why are we acting like this?
And it's just, it's been ruined.
And I think that Martin Gore is in a similar mind.
It's like, you have this, and you know, maybe this album came out in 2000.
2005, I believe, or 2004?
2005. And so maybe Martin Gore is freshly remembering the 2000 Y2K kind of cult stuff.
This is a Bush-era album, whereas Sounds of the Universe is an Obama-era album.
And he's just expressing his outrage as a...
Universalist, post-mill Christian at how this book should be treated.
And I think he's even saying it shouldn't even be canonized.
It's a book of lies.
Definitely. I think what he's doing is what I think Christians have been doing to Jews and Protestants have been doing to Catholics in the sense that it's a very Protestant.
If he's dismissing this saint, St. John, why not dismiss other saints?
And it's kind of leading to a better monotheism for Martin Gore.
If he's saying, stealing the God from the Israelites, stealing the God from a Muslim too.
I mean, just objectively, I think that Christianity is less monotheistic with not only the depictions of Christ, both two-dimensional and three-dimensional, but The Holy Spirit itself is in three parts,
whereas in Islam or Judaism, it's all abstract.
And I kind of think that's what it's like, him being a better Protestant.
That's the way I take the song.
Or being a better monotheist.
Getting closer to Yahweh.
And in fact, all St. John does is give us pain in the sense that The Seven Seals of the Revelation, but also in the sense that he's giving us pain or obscuring one's true connection to Yahweh,
perhaps. Yes.
Yeah. And I don't think Martin Gore, I don't think Bono are people who think that everything just keeps getting better.
Excuse me.
The opposite.
Everything just keeps getting worse.
Just things get worse and worse and worse and worse.
And someday, laser-eyed Jesus is just going to strike down the world.
This kind of thing doesn't appeal to them.
And that's...
Yeah, I do think he wants to rescue Christianity from this.
And it's interesting because I would imagine...
I don't know enough about...
John Willie, or Blind Willie Johnson.
But I would imagine he probably resonated with a lot of that pre-mill stuff.
Yeah. Who's that writing?
John the Revelator.
Now who are worthy, crucified and holy, bound up for some, son of our God, daughter of Zion, Judea's lion, he redeemed us, Jesus brought us with his blood.
Now tell me who's that writing?
John the Revelator.
A book of the seven seals.
While Moses to Moses, watching the flock, saw the bush where they had to stop.
God told Moses, pull off your shoes out of the flock.
Awella, you I choose.
Who's that writing?
John the Revelator.
Who's that writing?
John the Revelator.
A book of the seven seals.
Yeah, so a little bit more Old Testament.
Yeah, but there's no reason to believe that he disregards John.
Whereas, yeah, I agree.
John the...
Depeche Mode's John Revelator is an anti-John song.
Yeah, in a lot of ways, it's just basically, like I said, continuing that tradition of we're better Jews than Jews.
That's basically what Christians and then in this way Martin is sort of saying.
Is there another one you want to dive into?
I think Suffer Well might actually be...
My favorite...
I mean, John the Revelator is great, but I think that there is...
It's pretty interesting.
It's obviously about self-overcoming and Dave's drug overdoses and suicide attempts that he had after Songs of Faith and Devotion and pre-Ultra.
But the interesting thing is that somebody had told him while he was...
I believe while he was recovering from heroin...
And withdrawing, like, basically to, like, suffer well.
And that phrase, like, stuck with him.
Not like, you know, I hope you have a really tough go at withdrawing from heroin, but like, you know, I hope it goes well for you, basically.
So, suffer well.
And I think it's probably his best song that he's ever written with Depeche Mode.
Depeche Mode.
Peace! I
I changed my mind And now I believe From the blackest room I was told you called my name Our love
was born So I believe
just hang on Suffer well Sometimes it's hard It's hard to tell I just hang
on Suffer well Sometimes it's hard It's so hard to tell I just hang on I just hang on I
just hang on
From the blackest room, I was torn.
You called my name.
My love was born, so I believe.
Just hang on.
Yeah, he did a solo album called, what's it called?
Paper Monster?
Yeah, Paper Monsters would have come out in like 2003.
Yeah. And there are a number of songs about drug overdose and all of that stuff.
He also wrote that with Christian Eigner.
Who seems to be a long-time friend and collaborator.
I think there's some good...
It's kind of like a sub-Depeche Mode album, but I do think it's good.
Definitely not as good as the Soul Saver's work, which I actually think is great.
Yeah, okay, I agree with you.
But I will say that the song Damage People, it's pretty good, but it's not...
One of Martin's solo or lead vocal best parts.
I think it's pretty straightforward for him.
For us, I think it would be straightforward.
I saw a documentary about Depeche Mode fans and there was, I believe, an Anglican church in the UK that maybe Episcopalian.
They were playing Literally, at the altar, they were playing this song.
They were playing, like, other pop songs.
Really? Yeah, just, like, at...
I'm, like, 90% sure it was, like, at the altar, which I would have thought would have been a pretty big sacrilege to do.
No, they do that.
There's a Utuchrist as well.
Oh, really?
Yes. This is a thing among Anglicans.
Gen X Anglicans.
Yeah, that's what they were too because the documentary came out around the same time as this album and that's where I was telling you on the last podcast about that kid from LA, the Mexican kid from LA who scared the hell out of me how pathological his love for Depeche Mode was.
It also featured...
These kids from the UK who were like going to church and the song that they played was Damaged People and it was like this weird candlelit sort of event in the church and yeah they were just playing it but it was just wild to me.
Thank you.
We're damaged people Drawn together By subtleties that we are not aware of Disturbed souls Playing out forever These games that we once thought I think?
When you're in my arms The world makes sense There is no pretense
And you're crying When you're by my side There is no defense I don't care to say I'm
dying I don't care to say
It is a very Christian song, but there are a number of other things.
Should I bring him down?
Should I scream and shout?
Should I speak of love?
Let my feelings out.
So that's from Jesus Christ Superstar.
And when you're in my arms, the world makes sense.
There is no pretense And you're crying Should I bring him down?
Should I scream and shout?
Should I speak of love?
Let my feelings out I never thought I'd come to thee
When I heard that, I liked that chorus or I guess kind of lead in or something a lot, but then I was like, where have I heard that before?
Not that Andrew Lloyd Webber doesn't...
Rip off, like, every song that he's ever written.
But, yeah.
It's interesting.
It's that kind of build-up of just kind of, like, rising note by note.
Yeah, it's good.
I will say, like, yeah, I think The Darkest Star, how the official album ends, I think that is an interesting track.
I think it's rather autobiographical.
It's the track that uses the playing the angel.
I don't want you to change anything you do.
I feel like maybe he's talking about himself in the sense that his flaws that he writes about are his source of inspiration.
Stay as you are, the darkest star shining for me majestically.
I heard Kurt Cobain had said before he had these really bad stomach aches.
I don't know from what was the source of them.
Use that stump, those stomach aches as like a source for his lyrical or musical inspiration.
And I think that's sort of what the darkest star is getting at is like, if I'm not this alcoholic divorcee, like, then I can't be this dark star, this character, or maybe that's just who he really is.
But like, you know, you can't be that person.
I think that's kind of what the song is.
So he's singing about you, but he's really singing about me is what he's saying, what you're saying.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Bye. Bye.
Bye. you won't stay satisfied for long I don't want you
to change anything you do
That's the way that I took it.
But yeah, and just like, I mean, just in general, it made me think about like the fact that Dave has sung most of Martin's written songs is just another layer of ambiguity because just naturally upon first listen,
you think the singer had something to do because he's singing the lyrics.
He had something to do with the writing.
So there's always it's like the in the same way that He's hiding behind Dave in a way, because he's not a very outward figure like Dave Gaughan is.
He's not the showman that Dave Gaughan is.
It sort of reminds me of Jason Alexander playing Costanza, but the whole time Costanza's really based on Larry David in a way.
That kind of inaccessibility keeps the avid fan or whatever interested.
I like it, yeah.
This also goes back to what I said at the beginning, which there's a certain self-awareness of the fact that they're Depeche Mode.
Definitely. You're going to be the darkest star, and you're going to keep on shining.
Yeah. What did you make of the cover?
I was going to ask you that.
I'm not sure what I make it.
It's a figure.
It's playing the angel.
And then it's this puffy figure apparently made out of feathers.
Okay, my take on it is the title Playing the Angel is playing, pretending to be a good person, not necessarily that you are.
And that's the way that Martin often...
That's the perspective from which he usually writes.
And also, he dresses as an angel during the touring The Angel.
So during this tour, he was dressed in the makeup and stuff, and he had these wings, and he was in white.
I was obviously not listening to them at 11 years old, but yeah, this is stuff that I've seen then.
But I think playing The Angel might shed...
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but might shed some light on his divorce.
Maybe not he necessarily.
Maybe his wife was, quote-unquote, playing the angel.
But yeah, in other words, being this kind of victim figure.
But I think the cover is really good, and it's probably the best cover that they've done in the 20th century, I would say.
And it's Anton Corbin, again, and it's...
It's got a lot of meaning.
I think it's probably the most meaningful cover since Violator.
So the feathers are wings, basically?
This is the kind of visual metaphor?
Yeah, but they're dark, too.
The darkest star.
He's this black bird, but trying to be something he's not, almost like playing the angel.
I just kind of disagree.
Okay. What do you think, then?
I think it's something that could have been made by a kindergartner or something.
Okay, I'm trying to give Corbin his...
Yeah, I mean, maybe that's the meaning, because it's a divorce album or something.
I don't know.
Yeah, you could be right.
Yeah, no, of all the things...
I mean, it's fine.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but of all the things to praise, the cover is not what I would turn to.
Well, I mean, I don't know.
I kind of hated the Exciter cover, like that flower.
Yeah, but that was real weird.
I mean, that was a microcosm and macrovision, and it's interesting, I think.
I don't know.
Best covers?
So, Black Celebration, a failed cover, although an interesting idea.
Violator, so simple and minimalist that it just works.
Music for the masses, totally works.
Ultra, a little too 90s.
It looks like a David Fincher movie or something.
It's very 90s.
Memento Mori, again, evoking the angels.
They're two angels.
I think it's a little too easy, almost.
I mean, broken frame, amazing photograph, communist imagery.
Obviously very interesting.
Speak and Spell, it looks kind of half-assed in a way, but kind of provocative.
Construction time again, too.
That's a great album cover.
Yeah, I like that album cover.
It's cool.
I think it was actually shot in the Matterhorn, so it kind of has a Euro feel.
Some Great Reward, I think, is good, but not great.
Songs of Faith and Devotion, it's cool, but it's kind of showing the band members maybe not terribly original.
Sounds of the Universe is minimalistic, but not terribly interesting.
Spirit, just Total Pass.
Yeah, Delta Machine is also kind of eh.
Yeah, not bad, but not...
Interesting or good.
Yeah. Violator's the one.
That's just a classic album cover.
It's so simple.
It's iconic.
They weren't trying to do too much.
They weren't doing that 90s thing where you just oversaturate with all these fonts and just overlaying.
Transposing images on one another.
It's just so complicated that it becomes...
They didn't do that.
They just did something extremely simple and very good.
Music for the masses also.
I mean, I think that's a great album cover.
Yeah, it's iconic, as they say.
But yeah, I mean, just the last bit on the playing the angel cover, I think like the feathers, I couldn't help but get like...
Holy Spirit, represented as a dove kind of vibes.
But that's really, yeah, that's the last bit of interpretation I have on the cover.
But yeah, I don't think it's that bad.
It's not great.
I would say that this album has one of the best B-sides ever.
Depeche Mode has had a lot of very good B-sides.
We can think of Pleasure, Little Treasure, but not tonight.
And there are a few others.
There's even the B-side of Speak and Spell.
This was the B-side to the single, A Pain That I'm Used To.
It's Newborn.
And it's interesting because it obviously evokes a newborn child.
Maybe even rhymes with precious in that way.
But I...
I think it's more of the Depeche Mode's take on the born-again concept.
Newborn for the first time.
I'm not born again.
I have never lived at all.
I've opened up my eyes.
So it's kind of directly going against the born-again myth.
Maybe I'm projecting too much of the George W. Bush era into that song.
But it's going against it while affirming it.
And it's a song about transformation, and it's quite good.
but I kind of can't believe it's not on the album.
For the first time I'm not born again I have never lived at all I've
opened up my eyes Now I hear the world talking Opened up my eyes I've just
started walking I've just started walking I've just started walking
Did you see them around this time?
2005? Yes.
I saw them in concert in DC, I believe.
I don't remember.
Nothing terribly memorable.
I saw them in Madison Square Garden for the Songs of the Universe.
And I've seen them a number of places since.
I saw them in Washington, D.C. again after Spirit.
And I remember that as a great concert.
And in Chicago.
I saw them twice.
And I really liked the Vegas concert that I went to.
I thought this was...
Maybe it's just fresh in my mind, but I thought this was one of the best concerts.
Yeah, they have incredible energy, I have to say, for their age.
Yeah, I think they were getting better.
I remember also with Sounds of the Universe, they were kind of diving into the 90s a lot as well.
Doing a lot of ultra and so they've always kind of done the full 40 years.
I mean, I think that's pretty remarkable about them.
Export Selection