All Episodes
Previous Next
Dec. 28, 2023 - RadixJournal - Richard Spencer
01:15:31
Depeche Mode: Some Great Reward

Richard Spencer and Andrew Jensen review Depeche Mode’s fourth studio album, Some Great Reward (1984). This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit radixjournal.substack.com/subscribe

| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
I think we've now reached prime Depeche mode.
Not peak.
Definitely. But prime.
Every song on the album is good.
And some are better.
Well, yeah, of course, some are better than others.
And some are a little, you know, very deep cuts, I guess you could say.
Stories of old and, you know, examples like that.
But they also are getting to classics and they're also pushing towards that anthem-like massive concert venue arena electro rock.
And there are a couple of examples on this album.
And they're also, I think, entering a new stage of electronic music.
They probably entered this with Construction Time again, but I guess what I would say is that there's a German Autobahn,
Kraftwerk sound and concept that you definitely see in albums like Speak and Spell and A Broken Frame.
very simple.
Chord progressions and melodies.
And this is a Vince Clark sound, which he'll stick with throughout his career.
And they're moving away from that.
And they're going towards, I guess, what is another German sound?
And that is the Einstürzende Neubauten sound.
These are people that they met.
These are people whose concerts Martin Gore was attending.
Dave might have been busy, but Martin Gore is defining the band, writing the songs, defining the sound, the vibe, if you will.
They're moving away from that notion of a synthesizer, which is, in effect, a synthesized piano.
And the synthetic sound that you would hear, you know, This almost,
this ironic in many ways, almost like childlike in some ways.
Use of synthesizers to create a new world.
You're moving away from instruments.
You're moving away from strumming a guitar.
And you're going towards this objective sound and singing about the technology and all that kind of stuff.
And we went into that a number of times.
And they're moving into this place where you're getting...
You're getting rid of the drum machine.
You're getting rid of drums.
You're getting rid of meter and time and rhythm, as it's traditionally understood.
And you're moving towards a noise and finding something musical or something special in that noise.
*music*
This is something that Neuhausen was definitely experimenting with.
And it's something that Martin took.
I mean, you know, good artists borrow.
Good artists are inspired by something.
Great artists steal.
And Martin Gore stole that sound and added it to his existing ability to write.
I think this is where you're starting to see Depeche Mode.
They're moving away from that simplistic synthesized piano.
That stuff that we know and love and which is fun and feels really 80s and etc.
And they're moving towards this.
It's not so much dark.
Unmusical as that word is understood.
It's noise.
It's concrete.
It's samples of a breathing machine.
*music*
So this is my general impression of some great reward.
It's a great album in the sense that all the songs are listenable, but it's much more experimental and daring than perhaps it's given credit for.
Yeah, I definitely agree.
I think that you could put this as their best album if you'd like.
There are, in my opinion, there are no bad songs on the album.
And the B-sides are good.
Yes. It does kind of rank up there.
Set Me Free, in your memory, those are like great songs.
Go ahead, sorry.
That's okay.
With the sound, you can, it's definitely, there's a lot of sampling used, and it's very, I'm not going to try and pronounce that correctly, but it is very much that, but there's also, I feel like there's a good balance.
I hate to be corny here, but they really did get the balance right.
It's a good amount commercial and it's a good amount deep.
It is a great balance and I think that's what makes the record so good.
And in my opinion, I think the cover art for this album is even better than A Broken Frame.
I love that cover art.
I love the juxtaposition between the married couple kind of looking in each other's eyes.
You can't really tell because it's so far away.
Next to the factory in the not-so-far distance.
And that kind of innocence of modern love with industry right next to it.
It almost asks, is monogamous love even possible, the way they look at each other?
Because, like I said, it's ambiguous.
You don't necessarily know if...
If they're fully in love, they just got married, but like many couples today that get married, you don't know how long they will last.
And there's something deeply personal, but also impersonal.
And I think that represents the album as well.
There are certainly personal songs on the album, and certainly more worldly songs, more relatable songs.
Well, with People Are People, they definitely are political, and even master and servant.
Yeah, so that's my impression.
Honestly, after listening to this over again, this would be like top three.
Yeah, I agree.
I'd also add this, just to build on what you're saying.
One thing you mentioned a couple of shows ago was that this factory was actually demolished.
Shortly after this photograph took place.
So it adds like a whole other layer of irony in the sense of deindustrialization that was taking place throughout the 70s and 80s.
You know, I'm kind of reminded even of like Morrissey's song, you know, Every Day is Like Sunday, where he's talking about this just horrible town.
And, you know, come, come nuclear bomb and all that kind of stuff.
But it's an ironic commentary as well on, you know, the dreams of the 19th and 20th century collapsing.
And, you know, you thought you hated industry, but now it's gone and you're poor.
And there's nothing here for you outside of, you know, greasy trays.
Today is silent and gray.
Hide on the promenade at your postcard.
How I dearly wish I was not here.
In the seaside town.
That they forgot to bomb, come, come, come, nuclear bomb.
you
I'd also add this.
I think the cover art is good.
I mean, look, aesthetically, like purely aesthetically, I don't think it's as interesting as a broken frame.
Because I think that's one of...
I don't even say this as a Depeche Mode fan.
I think that's one of the best photographs of the 20th century.
I mean, it's just...
It looks like a painting.
And it has political...
Invocations as well.
I mean, it's very, very interesting.
But I obviously see your point.
And I think you can see some of that in this album.
I mean, for instance, Somebody is a heartfelt song.
It's sung by Martin Gore as opposed to Dave.
And it's kind of sweet.
I mean, you could imagine...
You know, playing this song for your girlfriend or something.
You know, it's very heartfelt, but it's not really ironic.
And so it does, you know, kind of clang sometimes.
But I think in a good way, you know, things like this make me sick.
but in a case like this, we'll get away with it.
I want somebody to share, share the rest of my life, share my innermost thoughts, know my intimate details.
Someone will stand by my side and give me support.
And in return, she'll get my support.
she
I mean, it's like a Hallmark card on some level.
But he does get away with it, in fact.
I like the song a lot, and it's sincere.
And then you have the stories of old of I couldn't sacrifice anything at all to love.
Sing to a disastrous effect.
You hear stories of old, of princess bold, with riches untold, happy souls.
Cast it all aside to take some brides that had the girl of their dreams at their sight.
But not me, I couldn't do that, not me.
I'm not like that, I couldn't sacrifice anything at all to love.
Sing to a disastrous effect.
You have blasphemous rumors that is coming out of a loss of faith.
And you have, you know, if you want, where it's like exercise your basic right, we're leaving the factory and we're partying, which is really the same sentiment and something to do, which is, you know, you're feeling the boredom too.
I'm gladly to go with you.
I'll put your leather boots on.
I'll put your pretty dress on.
Which gets it.
And then Master and Servant.
Obviously, it's a song about sadomasochism.
I think the album's perfect because it does show innocence.
But then you could also imagine the marriage of these two 19-year-olds, let's say, who are almost doing it to please their parents or because they don't know any better and they're kind of in love.
And that, in a sense, is going to start shattering pretty soon.
So, I mean, and again, their factory is some, you know, shitty place where their dad works, but you didn't know how much you loved it until it's gone.
So, I mean, I think there's a lot, there's really a lot here in terms of layers.
You know, at the end of the day, some great reward will be coming your way.
Yeah, that is a lie.
And that's what the album is about.
And it's definitely appropriately titled, it's like some great reward in terms of life, love, and you could take it in a number of different, in terms of a wage, maybe.
Oh, yeah, look at this wage that I have.
Some great reward.
Some great reward, yeah.
I think with a song like Somebody, the atmosphere I love so much because it has that, you can hear the driving and the children playing and all this kind of commotion and noise in the background.
And amidst all that, Martin's sort of having his deepest, most personal moments, thinking about love.
And he kind of wants it both ways in the song.
In the first verse, he wants the love and the intimacy of that.
And in the second verse, at the tail end, he's like, I don't want any strings to tie me down.
Maybe I don't want it all.
There's this kind of conflict.
And I think that it reflects that he's kind of having a difficult time being vulnerable, which is kind of funny for him.
Maybe I'm psychoanalyzing, but...
It's kind of funny for him because he has no problem looking vulnerable, like physically.
He goes on stage in BDSM gear and leather, and that's definitely a theme that's in there in Master and Servant, but also in Something to Do.
But in the song Somebody, he's not being vulnerable emotionally, or he is, but he's having a difficult time with it.
Someone who'll help me see things in a different light.
All the things I detest, I will almost like.
I don't want to be tied to anyone's strings.
I'm carefully trying to stick near of those things.
But when I'm asleep, I wonder...
I'm somebody Who will put their arms around And kiss me tenderly No things like this Make me sick In a case like this I'll get away with Martin
is living in Berlin at this time.
He has a new woman, Christiana Friedrichs.
There's actually a mention in Just Can't Get Enough, which is this really good biography.
This, you know, another notorious Berlin figure.
This is just kind of about the milieu that they're around.
Christiana F. She had been living as a junkie and prostitute in the city's notorious Bahnhof Zoo area.
Her story was serialized in a national newspaper and then printed as a paperback shock horror book that was eventually turned into a feature film.
She got clean and became a real fan of intelligent, difficult, and experimental music, especially industrial.
She was the girlfriend of Alex Haka, of Neubauten, for quite a while.
So, this is, again, they go back to Hansa Studios.
Martin is living there.
Dave Gahan has apparently bought the biggest house in Basildon.
So, he's...
I think Dave is having much less of an impact on the band.
He's certainly not writing music, and I don't know the degree to which he's really influencing the sound, but...
As Simon Spence says, in truth, his voice was the sound of the band.
He remains that indispensable component of it all.
Do you want to talk about some of the songs?
Which one jumps out to you?
Immediately, the first song that really jumped out at me was If You Want.
There was something about that banging kick drum and that bone out bone out and kind of echoing.
That's definitely the first one that I was like, what the hell is this?
It wasn't like anything I've ever heard before or since, really.
And it was just dark, but it was a party song at the same time in a lot of ways.
That and Something to Do are very much like these Black Celebration songs before Black Celebration.
Working weeks come to its end.
Party time is here again.
Everyone can come if they want to.
If you want to be with me, if you want to be with me, you can come with me if you want to.
You know, it was that song, it was Blasphemous Rumors, and of course, People Are People and Master and Servant.
Those were the first that kind of popped out to me, but it really didn't, like...
Stick in my head.
I didn't get the other songs to stick in my head until maybe like a couple weeks listening.
But then I just really devoured it.
I mean, this was like the first Depeche album that I was like, this is amazing from front to back.
I just didn't get enough of it.
There is this weird thing because it's like with Construction Time, again, they were aggressively trying to be political.
They were singing about nuclear war and environmental degradation and so on.
And working in a factory in some kind of, I don't know, a bit kind of a muddled version of communist utopia or something.
Here, it's this weird theme that I've never...
Thought of it before, but I mean, if the, you know, if you want, it's, you know, party time is here again.
It's this, it's almost like he's making an announcement that it's 5pm.
You no longer have to work at the jackhammer and party time is here again.
I mean, it's weird in many ways, but it's like this leaving the factory to party.
And they're going to be the act that is offering music for the masses, so to speak.
It's just a weird sentiment.
I don't know if I've...
And it's strange, like, two songs, something to do, and if you want, have that same image.
I'm going crazy with boredom.
Come with me and tell me.
Gray sky over a black town.
I can feel depression all around.
You've got your leather boots on.
I can't stand another drink.
It's surprising this town doesn't sink.
Your pretty dress is oil-stained from working too hard for too little.
You've got your leather boots on.
And then he wants to put the leather boots on.
This weird moving from an industrial town into party time, which I guess it's almost like their own trajectory.
into, you know, we're going to create pop music out of this.
I'm going crazy before them come with me.
Tell me, is there something to do?
Definitely. And I think one of the interesting things with If You Want is that the melody is kind of, the vocal melody is kind of Eastern sounding.
It's like this Phrygian, which is like the darkest of the minor modes.
I mean, until you get to like a diminished mode.
That is like, and then it goes back like a...
If I have this correct, I think it's from Bb minor to F minor, but in this basically Bb phrygian to F phrygian, if that makes sense.
This very dark and, like I said, eastern kind of sound.
And it really, that to me is why I wish Alan would have wrote more songs, because that song is just, it's so weird.
Literally, like, foreign-sounding.
You know, it's very, to me, very Eastern-sounding, that melody.
Yeah, I mean, it does kind of sound like this working-class, communist-ish party time, which kind of gets into the fact that this was the first tour where they would cross the Iron Curtain,
and that would be in...
Budapest. Now, I don't want to jump ahead if you have something else to say.
No, no.
Keep going.
But the first city behind the Iron Curtain they would play in is July 23rd, 1985.
And they would play in Budapest and then Warsaw after.
The fans there were so devoted that they welcomed Martin Gore by singing.
It was his birthday.
And they had welcomed it.
Him out to Happy Birthday and he was just so flabbergasted and impressed.
How the hell do these people know?
They're under the thumb.
They're in a basically secluded world.
From what I understand, it actually cost them to go there, which is interesting.
I feel like you could go on.
It cost Depeche Mode money to do it, but they did it anyway, is what you're saying?
Yes, yes.
Interesting. That's what Fletch said.
And so I'm sure you could go off on this.
I think now Hungary is not a Slavic country, but it's like, what is this fascination between or among like Slavs or Eastern Europe in general and Depeche Mode?
I mean, I'm sure you have some.
Well, yeah.
And it's not just Slavs.
It's also Germans.
Martin Gore is living in Germany, dating a German, and they're most popular in Germany.
And they continue to have this fan base there that is passionate.
Yeah. As you go to Central Europe and then to Eastern Europe...
I don't have an answer without resorting to cliches like a German soul or a Russian soul or something.
I think it's interesting that Depeche Mode is now popular in America.
They have a huge fan base, but they weren't even touring in America early on.
They jokingly say that they're least popular in their hometown.
There's something about the...
A hard aesthetic minor key that I think appeals to anyone who's lived under socialism or in the sense of the communist bloc or is kind of in the midst of it in terms of Germany.
And there's also that German desire for progression and kind of like
moving through something into something else.
And, yeah.
It's not, you know, somebody aside, it's not music about, you know, finding love and kind of finding this pure love that's outside of the world and so on like that.
It's about kind of diving in to...
The experience and reality of living in the 20th century.
That's the best I can do.
I can't quite explain it without cliches.
I also think with German music, there's obviously a deeper German tradition of music than there is in Great Britain.
No fault to Great Britain, of course.
And from the German world springs Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Wagner, etc., etc.
And there's just less of a tradition or less glorious classical music from Great Britain.
It just is what it is.
I don't know if the precision of synthesized music where...
You're not hearing a strummed guitar and that has been taken away and you're more able to listen to actual music development and that these people just have a better ear for that.
I might suggest that, I guess.
But I can't quite explain it.
I mean, I think probably the best is the best answer is probably that there is a general vibe in Central and Eastern Europe that wants to get away from poppy love songs and wants to
dive into.
Yeah, that's about what I would expect.
You know, every time I see like an article or something about what is the connection between Eastern Europe and Depeche Mode, I think of this meme.
It's been around Twitter and stuff, but it's got Shakespeare.
He says, English literature, I will die for honor.
And it'll say, American literature, I will die for freedom.
And it's got a picture of Dostoevsky, and it says, Russian literature, I will die.
But there is that connection, I think, that Depeche does have.
It's not totally a pessimistic band, as Martin has said before.
He does offer light at the end of the tunnel.
Or tries to.
But, you know, there's something there with a song like Blasphemous Rumors.
That is not a happy ending song in any way, shape, or form.
No. And I just, I do get the sense, and I think actually Ed Dutton has pointed this out, is that they kind of do have this penchant for, or this kind of like death drive.
Courageous would be a nice way of saying it.
foolhardy might be a more accurate way of talking about slobs.
And there's also kind of a goofiness about that.
And you could say that about white people in general, that's fine.
But I really do think there is some kind of awkwardness to slobs
Well, yeah.
mean look as we talked about the last time they're they're developing into a fascist aesthetic and
necessarily actual fascist politics but and
maybe before it's a oral aesthetic which is very interesting for a band but
know
It resonates right then and there with the...
Propaganda of Germany.
Obviously, he was living in West Berlin, Martin Gore, that is, but it's all around you.
There's actually a little anecdote that I read of they were driving the Autobahn into Berlin, because Berlin was a surrounded city, of course, or West Berlin was a surrounded city.
And they got off on an exit, and they saw all these...
Like, tenant homes that had no windows or something and red stars everywhere.
And they kind of quickly got back into their car.
It's kind of funny.
I mean, it's just a weird place in many ways.
I mean, I remember visiting Berlin many years ago now.
It must be like 15 or 17. And walking through no man's land.
And these houses...
Maybe they've been reclaimed since I was there, but they weren't reclaimed at the time.
And you can walk around, nature's taken over, you can see bullet holes in houses, you can easily find old, you know, Soviet or, you know, Day to Air posters.
And it's, yeah, I mean, that's what they're going for.
And that's who they're, whom they're appealing to.
Definitely. If I was more conspiratorially minded, I'd say that MI6 sent them over to demoralize the Soviet Union or something like that.
Demoralize? Well, yeah, that's...
If I were conspiratorially minded, I would think they were funded by the Soviet Union.
Turn innocent Americans against God or something.
I mean, I don't actually think that, but that makes more sense.
They are more than just a band for us.
Of course, they don't know us in person, but not only their lyrics and music are close to us.
As a people, Depeche Mode are very close to our souls.
And we will always be waiting for them.
We will support them.
We will stay devoted.
Blasphemous rumors, girl of 16, whole life ahead of her.
Slashed her wrist, bored with life.
Didn't succeed, thank the Lord.
Poor small mercies.
Fighting back the tears, mother reads the note again.
So it's her suicide note.
16 candles burning in her mind.
She takes the blame.
It's always the same.
She goes down on her knees and prays.
Girl of 18, fell in love with everything.
Found new life in Jesus Christ.
Hit by a car, ended up on a life support machine.
That's where that sound comes from.
Summer's day, as she passed away, birds were singing in the summer sky.
Then came the rain, and once again, a tear fell from her mother's eyes.
And, you know, so you have that, where you have these, you know, outside sounds, like the life support machine, and this, like, kind of childlike...
Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't.
And it's just, it's a very creepy vibe.
And then you have what I think they're going to pursue a lot in music for the masses.
You have this anthem.
And it's, you know, I don't want to start any blasphemous rumors,
But I think that God's got a sick sense of humor I don't want to start any blasphemous rumors But I think that
God's got a sick sense of humor And when I die, I expect to find him wanna be
You can just hear them performing that in an arena and everyone's singing along as almost like a mantra or anthem.
And I don't think they really had the confidence to do something like that before this album.
People Are People is very similar.
It has an anthem mantra.
I don't know of a better word than that.
And so they're starting to create music for the masses, but then they're doing it in their own way.
And they're not creating these patriotic anthems.
They're creating this.
It's not even necessarily saying that there's no God.
Blasphemous rumors, that is.
It's saying that there is a God and he has a sick sense of humor.
And this girl who got bored with life, which is also a kind of theme in this boredom.
And she just, you know, committed suicide at 16, but she survived.
And then she actually puts her faith in Christ, and that's when God takes her.
And there is something like a sick sense of humor.
It's kind of like, now that I've got you, and I know you can be saved, now it's time to take you.
Look, we're talking about pop music and stuff like that.
It's, you know, it's not philosophy or T.S. Eliot, but I...
I think it's actually a really profound sentiment.
And it probably also does get to the mentality of a lot of kids living in the 80s as well.
A mentality that wasn't being voiced by most every other band on the radio.
Yeah, I think it gets at the mentality of even people today.
I mean, you can have...
There's no reason that you should be bored because you have a cell phone that has everything in it and commands your attention, and then people still find themselves even more bored and even more suicidal than ever.
And that in the song, that's why she takes her life, or tries to, rather, is she's bored.
And I think that in itself is interesting.
And he's not...
Like you said, it's not necessarily atheism.
It's just Martin saying in the chorus, sometimes I feel alone.
There's no God, no moral.
He's actually questioning if there's a moral God.
Why? Which everybody has had at some point in their life.
That's a new atheism starting point in a lot of ways.
Is there almost a sadistic God?
Yes, which is more interesting.
But yeah, and then her mom, all she can do is pray to the same God that allowed this, or maybe, like you said, even caused this thing to happen.
And I find the lyrics of this song incredibly relatable.
And you had mentioned with that kind of music box, kind of do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.
I mean, that's so creepy because you hear the innocence and the youth and the childishness of it all.
But I think also that it kind of signals disorder in the opening, in the introduction, when you just hear the pots and pans kind of hit the ground and you can hear the top spinning on the ground.
It just sounds like disorder.
And it's, in my opinion, it's one of...
their best tracks they've ever made.
Yeah, I love this one.
Yeah, so this is from Stripped, which is another book, Andy Fletcher.
I turned away from religion because I found I was leading a really boring life.
I wanted to live life to the full, but I was trapped.
And I thought, if I die tomorrow, that will be it.
It's a shame that Christianity is perverted and hyped so much because it does have something to offer.
So again, they're not fully turning away from it.
Voices were raised in concern over the song's supposed blasphemy.
Having taken Martin Gore's hook line at face value, one local South End clergyman said, if we can say God so loved the world that he sent his only son, if he did that, he cannot have a sixth sense of human being.
So, this song, it was never banned or anything like that, but they actually worried about it being banned.
And Andy Fletcher said that when he first heard it, he found it offensive.
And it was just going too far.
Which also is one more indication of Andy Fletcher riding sidecar on this entire project.
I'm offended by this song.
Well, what's funny is like, there's a sense in which I can sympathize with what he said about turning away from religion.
A lot of people can.
There's still a part where I certainly know Tradcaf, but...
I do kind of get a little like, oh, that's kind of in bad taste.
It's just so deep in, I won't say ours maybe, but in a lot of people's psyches is this, yeah, that's kind of a bad look if you make fun of the priest or you make fun of the church or make fun of Christ.
There is something, it's not like I don't do it or anything, but there is something where you kind of feel like, oh, I feel a little bit of guilt for doing this, which I think...
Martin feels in general just when he's writing songs.
I think that's his perspective as the guilt-ridden Christian who constantly finds himself in these situations where he's testing his conscience.
Yeah. Going to Master and Servant.
So let me read a little bit from...
Simon Spence here, because this is an interesting anecdote.
There were only hints at it that I got in Reading Stripped.
How to unravel the enigma that is Martin Gore.
Let's start at Skin 2, the ultra-trendy underground fetish club he'd started to frequent in London.
It was here that he indulged his penchant for bondage harnesses, leather, rubber, and handcuffs.
Record mirror writer and soon-to-be editor Betty Page was one of the leading ladies at Skin 2. A rearview image of her in a black lace dress made by the scene's lead designer Daniel James became an iconic fetish image.
When Martin got quite heavily into the rubber and leather thing...
It was like, oh, blimey.
Who'd have thought you'd have been doing this when I first met you, she recalled.
It wasn't something he suddenly did.
It was a gradual development.
But it was a lot to do with the prevailing mood.
Gore was into leather for the image.
Strong. I got a feeling Martin was just using the imagery,
but got into it on a deeper level, Paige said.
I remember his leather skirt.
A lot of other people were doing that kind of experimentation as well.
It was all about exploring your sexuality and being a bit exhibitionist and being allowed to be like that without being condemned for it and so on.
So this is some underground club.
It was small.
It wasn't even necessarily like a sex club.
It was more of this kind of exhibitionism.
The whole point was to make it cool, said Mitchell.
This is one of the writers, who is still involved in the fetish scene, is editor of Skin 2 Magazine, so it became a magazine, and thefetishistas.com.
Skin 2 was the bastard child of the Blitz new romantic scene and the earlier punk scene.
So, again, it gets to my general point, which there's an almost visual aesthetic that Martin Gore finds.
attractive and interesting and compelling.
And then he is almost writing music to fit that.
Yeah, I mean, that doesn't really surprise me as far as him doing it firstly for an image and then sort of going deeper.
I do know that a lot of the band members, like Alan and Dave and Fletch, were like, okay, dude, this is going a little bit too far now, man.
You're wearing actual tights.
And, you know, an actual, like, leather dress or something.
Yeah, and most strange of all, he was heterosexual.
It's a lot.
There's a new game we like to play, you see.
A game with added reality.
We treat me like a dog, hit me down on my knees.
We call it Master and Servant.
We call it Master and Servant.
Master and Servant.
There's a new game we like to play.
You see a game with added reality.
You treat me like a dog.
Get me down on my knees.
We call it Master and Servant.
We call it Master and Servant.
It's a lot like life.
This play between the sheets with you on top and me underneath.
Forget all about equality.
Let's play Master and Servant.
The song reminds me a lot of Everything Counts as well.
I think I mentioned this when we talked about Construction Time again.
On one level, it's an anti-capitalist song, but then on another level, you could almost imagine that song as the soundtrack to some 80s movie like Wall Street or something.
There's a way that you're indulging in the hardcore, dangerous, sadomasochistic quality of...
That world while criticizing it, and so it's not ultimately criticizing it at all, if you understand.
This idea of everything counts in large amounts, and the graph on the wall tells the story of it all.
It kind of reminds me of the line that there's never been an anti-war movie, because whenever you depict war, you're in a way indulging in it.
People get excited about it.
So even movies like Platoon or Full Metal Jacket can't help themselves but glorify the band of brothers and heroism aspect of it, even though both of those films are objectively anti-war.
And I feel like this is almost what he's getting at.
He's criticizing...
Capitalism or something through this song.
But by doing that, you know, he obviously loves it.
Domination is the name of the game and better in life.
They're both just the same except in one you're fulfilled at the end of the day.
It's a lot like life and that's what's appealing.
If you despise that throwaway feeling from disposable fun, then this is the one.
So it's all of that, you know, cheap love songs and Conventional romance, you know, the married couple and the album cover.
If you ultimately despise that, then you have to dive into, you know, leather and mask and S&M and stuff like that.
But that's the sentiment.
It's kind of equivocal.
It's both glorifying it, finding authenticity in it, and criticizing it at the same time.
Yeah, I think there's a slightly, like, kind of fashy tone to it with...
Yeah, forget all about equality.
Forget about equality, yeah.
And it does seem like a, it seems like a repudiation of somebody insofar as it's, this is about lust instead of, you know, we just love each other and I want to share my most intimate thoughts with you.
It seems like, you know, very surface level.
Yeah, your take is interesting about the sort of capitalistic element.
I hadn't really thought of that.
I was just thinking of the sexual kind of power aspect, you know?
Yeah, well, you know, these kinds of sex dungeons are very popular in Manhattan for Wall Street people, and I don't think it's terribly surprising.
It's amazing.
But, yeah, I mean, let's talk about people are people, because I think I mentioned this even in our first podcast about people are good, which is, you know, which, of course, is saying people are not good.
This, people are people, it has that anthem quality that they're pushing towards, you know, that I noted before.
But also, it's coming from an odd perspective.
It's a song about racism, but it's a song about not understanding racism.
And so it almost reminds me of someone who's lived in a suburban, quaint, middle and lower middle class community like Basildon.
They're singing about racism, but it's something that they've never really experienced.
They haven't been in a situation that could be called a race war or something like that.
That's totally different.
And so they're singing about it, but he's also very much like Master and Servant.
he's kind of fetishizing that quality
it, almost fetishizing racism.
So I mean, let me read some of the lyrics.
So people are people.
So why should it be?
You and I should get along so awfully.
So again, we're all equal.
So why is it that we hate each other?
So we're different colors and we're different creeds and different people of different needs.
It's obvious you
I've never even met you, so what could I have done?
I can't understand what makes a man hate another man.
Help me understand.
I mean, that's actually good writing, so I can't understand what makes a man, like in general, what makes a man hate another man.
So he's not understanding racism, but it's not, again, it's almost in that way kind of fetishizing it.
Maybe there's an implication that you should turn away from this, or it doesn't make sense.
Why? It's all arbitrary.
But that's not...
Really what he's saying.
It's, you know, delving in to what it would mean to have race hatred.
*Music*
And I would say that my take on the song's lyrics is that if you go from verse to pre-chorus to chorus, it kind of seems like Dave is singing the more nativist or conservative type.
The pre-chorus, Martin is kind of asking.
He's kind of more neutral in the middle.
And then when you get to the chorus, it does seem like the...
Why should we get along so awfully?
Almost like a...
Like a spectrum, I guess.
Because Dave's lyrics, it's obvious you hate me, though I've done nothing wrong.
I've never even met you, so what could I have done?
It's very...
I take that as kind of like he's more in conflict.
He's displaying more of the conflict between, let's say, a native Englishman and immigrant Pakistani or something like that.
And I think Martin's...
Kind of pre-chorus is just like, okay, well, let's just get to the bottom of this.
What is it that makes another man hate another man?
And then basically the chorus just saying, screw it, let's just all get along.
People are people, so why should it be?
You and I should get along so awfully.
Yeah, that was my sort of take on it.
You know, it honestly felt like a struggle session that yourself, and I'm not sure who the other guy was, but yourself and...
Charles Barkley had.
I mean, I couldn't help but think of that interview.
Yeah. It was just, no one is, we're just really not seeing eye to eye.
I mean, we're just like, you know, North and North Magnet or something like that.
We're just repelling each other and literally on different levels of communication.
But, yeah.
I definitely felt that.
I remember when I was talking to Charles Barkley and I was just talking about power and I was like, it was why I admired you so much is that, you know, you weren't even that tall and you were the best rebounder and, you know, you willed yourself into this great athlete.
You weren't even beyond your natural gifts.
And, you know, it's like that's what really makes us human.
What makes us human is not...
Tolerating everyone or being equal or something.
And he was kind of resonating with it.
Maybe that's why that got cut.
Yeah, I would have loved to have seen the uncut version because...
I mean, it definitely looks caught up if you watch that.
Oh, you totally added it.
Yeah, because it is.
But yeah, I would have loved to have seen all the stuff that got cut out.
Come on and lay with me.
Come on and lie to me.
Tell me you love me.
Say I'm the only one.
Come on and lay with me.
Come on and lie to me.
Tell me you love me.
Say I'm the only one
Lie to me is also one of my favorite songs.
And it's playing with this lay and lie, the two verbs that no one knows how to conjugate.
But it's, you know, come lay with me.
Come on and lie to me.
Tell me that you love me.
Say that I'm the only one.
Obviously, it's implying that he's not the only one.
Experiences have a lasting impression, but words when spoken don't mean a lot now.
Belief is the way, the way of the innocent.
And when I say innocent, I should say naive.
So lie to me, but do it with sincerity.
I think it's very good writing.
And there's also another element.
This song gives us the title of the album.
So lie to me like they do it in the factory.
Make me think that at the end of the day, some great reward will be coming my way.
So I think it combines a lot of Depeche Mode's themes, or you could even say hang-ups.
So there's the sex element.
There's someone who doesn't really love him, but he just simply wants to hear her say, I love you.
And she's lying with, she's laying down with, and she's lying with him, but she's also lying to him, not telling him the truth.
But then it's also that, you know, lie to me like they do it in the factory.
This, again, critique of capitalism, etc.
But this, you know, promise that you're going to have some great reward at the end of the day that you ultimately know is not coming, but you want to hear it anyway so that it can keep you going.
I think it's a great song.
Yeah, I think that those are some of the best lyrics on the album.
And there's still that religious aspect as well.
Belief is the way, the way of the innocent.
When I say innocent, I should say naive.
And when that line, some great reward will be coming our way, it's kind of like, which I know you're critical on this way of thinking, is just one day it'll work out.
One day XYZ will happen.
One day there will be a day of reckoning.
And I...
I think that definitely comes out of the Bible, this kind of one day.
It's almost like the messianism of it.
Like, one day, and then one day there will be a miracle.
And then one day, you know, Jesus' second coming or Moshiach's first, whatever.
Yeah, as I've gotten older, you know, that is kind of one of those ways of thinking that is just certainly for children.
Let's go.
So, I saw Depeche Mode this past weekend in Las Vegas, and it was an amazing concert.
Don't think they played a song from this album.
I was going to mention that.
Yeah. I have heard them play Master and Servant live and things like that.
It was an amazing concert.
I mean, they really are still going.
And it wasn't like, you
Depeche Mode in their later years.
You know, they're over 60 now, you know, barely caring, and they're all fat and sweaty like Elvis, and they're just going through the motions, and the crowd is indulging them.
They're not like that at all.
They're very serious about performing live.
And they did a lot from the beginning,
I'm just looking at the set list here, but there's Walking in My Shoes.
They did Everything Counts.
Precious from the 2000s.
They did three or four songs from the new album.
And they actually ended with John the Revelator from Playing the Angel, which is a great song, which is a cover.
I actually didn't even know that.
You were right.
You mentioned that.
And then in the encore, Never Let Me Down Again and Personal Jesus.
So they were actually really going all over the place, like four decades of music, actually.
Dave is as charismatic as he's ever been.
I mean, he's prancing around on stage, doing his thing, taking a break.
Martin sang Strangelove, which was accompanied, I think, only by piano.
I mean, it was very, it was totally stripped down.
You know, Taylor Swift's on everyone's mind these days, the Times person of the year.
I don't know what she did for her, quote, eras tour.
You know, I think she's had a career that's about 15 years or so, not nearly as long or certainly not as diverse as Debesh Mode, but I think it would be interesting, I don't know, do a series of four concerts on every decade or something like that.
I think there's a lot there, and I'm glad they performed all these songs, but I do want to hear some deeper cuts live.
Just a thought.
Totally. Totally.
Yeah. I remember there was in one of those Depeche Mode documentaries, it was on the Playing the Angel tour and they were talking about putting in Lie to Me into the set.
And that's just a great deep cut song.
It's not single worthy, but it's just a great song.
Going through the set list, it's just okay.
Single, single, single, A-side.
Yeah. Yeah, it's great, but yeah, it's definitely lacking one of those deeper cuts for sure.
Yeah, but I definitely got the feeling, I mean, they're standing before this giant M, Momentum, Mori, and they have projections in the background, like within the letter and behind it.
I mean, there was actually something really powerful because they ended the first set.
Which was around 20 songs or so with Enjoy the Silence.
And they actually had two skulls in the background.
It almost gave Enjoy the Silence a completely new meaning, actually.
Because it was almost like, what is that song from A Broken Frame?
Sometimes I Wish I Were Dead.
Maybe that's from Speak and Spell.
Speak and Spell.
So Silence took on a whole new meaning.
As opposed to the king getting away from it all.
It was...
You know, again, we'll talk about that soon, just peak Depeche Mode,
in my opinion.
And I did get that sense that I mentioned earlier of...
They're creating almost like a...
It's music for the masses.
They're creating this national anthem in a way that everyone's singing along, like, let's have a Black celebration.
But they're doing it in their own way.
So it is sing-songy, and obviously these concerts, everyone knows the words, but they're doing it within the context of The minor key industrial sounds, noise,
pain, regret, boredom, you could say, at modern life.
And I don't know if any other band has, any other musician even, has ever attempted to achieve that in the way that they did.
I mean, it was like we, you know, and I'm sure the audience was Gen Xers to a large degree.
It was like we were singing our own anthem together with the band.
Again, I find that pretty incredible that they had the confidence to achieve something like that.
Where'd you sit when you were at the concert and how was the crowd?
Well, it's interesting.
So I sat on the floor.
For instance, I also saw U2 at the Sphere.
And the next night, actually.
I did this last minute.
So jealous.
Yeah, well, you should be.
I did this last minute trip, and there was, you know, on the Sphere, on the floor, and we were actually all standing, and we were very close to Bono and company.
You could just see them.
I mean, they felt almost 10 feet away.
They were probably like 50 feet away or so.
And everyone was hanging out.
I almost felt like when I was there, it was almost like a class reunion.
As kind of crazy as that sounds.
I mean, I was looking through this and I was like, I've got to find an exception here.
I think literally every single person was white between the ages of 35 and 60. So it was like the Gen X class reunion.
And everyone was friendly.
Everyone was talking about when they'd seen them live and so on.
Not quite that vibe.
More of a diverse crowd, actually, at the Depeche Mode concert at T-Mobile Arena.
Younger people and older people.
It's just a more diverse crowd.
I mean, it's kind of weird to say that, but it's true.
So when I saw YouTube, Martin Gore was actually in the audience.
So he was up in a suite and Bono knew that that was the case.
And Bono actually performed personal Jesus.
Someone who cares.
You're all personal Jesus.
Someone who's always there.
I was dead when they crucified my lord.
I drew the scabbard when the soldier drew a sword.
I threw the dice when he danced his side.
But I've seen love conquer the great divide.
With love, love the power, I'm gonna jump that train.
Okay, yeah, I did see that on Twitter, I think.
That's awesome.
Yeah, so The Edge was like doing a kind of blues riff.
It actually wasn't...
But, you know, it was kind of close enough.
And Bono found the rhythm.
And sang Personal Jesus.
And everyone knew what he was doing and everyone loved it.
I didn't know that Martin was actually there at the time, but I did see that later on Twitter.
I'm sure we're subscribed to the same Depeche Mode fan accounts.
And pretty amazing stuff.
I could talk more about you two, but I think I'm not going to because we want to stay on topic.
It was an amazing weekend.
I would say that I didn't get the sense of a Gen X reunion at the Depeche Mode concert.
For whatever reason, everyone was seated.
Maybe it was the fact that in general admission at U2 in the sphere, you were just standing and you could go get your $30 cocktail and hang out.
It was almost like they were forcing you to talk or something.
Everyone was seated at Depeche Mode, but then...
The second they played, down on the floor, everyone's standing and singing along.
Yeah, that's awesome.
They shouldn't have, in my opinion, they shouldn't have seats unless you're handicapped or something like that on the floor.
Yeah, seriously.
It's annoying.
And then you always get that one asshole who's just sitting and just looks like, why the hell are you here?
I had actually one guy like that at the concert in Detroit.
It was like, why are you here?
And then a few songs in, he just left.
I don't know what he was expecting.
That was a good use of $300.
No shit, yeah.
But there were a lot of kids in their 20s and late teens.
And I'm just like, okay, I guess this makes sense because 2023s, there's not culturally that much of a difference in music, I should say, musically, between now and 10 years ago.
And so, yeah, there should be.
People my age and people younger.
It was just all over the place, I guess.
What I'm trying to say is that everybody's looking back, as we've said before, in music.
Just to do this standard question, what song on Some Great Reward was your favorite and least favorite?
Okay. When I was a lot younger, I loved Master and Servant.
And again, I was listening to that on the Catching Up with Depeche Mode compilation CD.
I would say if I had to choose one, I would choose Blasphemous Rumors.
I think a lot of people's least favorite is Martin's song, It Doesn't Matter.
It's kind of like this.
It almost sounds like a song that would be on Napoleon Dynamite or something.
Very cheesy, 80s sounding.
But I looked at my plays last year and it was in my top five Play-Dohs.
Oh, that's funny.
When I kiss you and you kiss me Don't pretend you miss me The worst
kind of disease mind It's one filled with jealousy If we should
meet again Don't try to solve the puzzle Just lay
down
Yeah, it doesn't matter if it all shatters.
It's a more complicated song.
But, yeah, I would say, what is your favorite song on the album?
I have to go with Blasphemous Rumors, too.
I mean, that is just...
They need to perform at five.
I mean, what are they thinking?
So, again, in our...
Kind of always revised and, you know, clearly shifting, you know, ranking.
What are your thoughts?
I would have Songs of Faith and Devotion at number one, Violator at two, and this one, Some Great Reward at number three.
I love it that much.
There's not a bad song on there.
Interesting. I still think that, I still think I might put...
Black celebration above this, and I might put music for the masses above this, but I largely agree.
▲
Export Selection