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Dec. 6, 2023 - RadixJournal - Richard Spencer
47:39
Depeche Mode: A Broken Frame

Richard Spencer and Andrew Jensen review Depeche Mode’s second studio album, A Broken Frame (1982). This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit radixjournal.substack.com/subscribe

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Thank you.
So, what are some of your initial thoughts on this album?
It's kind of a transition.
Definitely. It's moody and weird, and it doesn't have a vision.
It's kind of still, the singles are poppy, and the other songs, the deep cuts, are moody.
Weird. Yeah, and weird, yeah.
And not terribly listenable, with some important exceptions.
I agree.
If you put yourself in the shoes of a casual fan circa 1982, I think you would have just assumed, and you hadn't read any reports on these things,
or you weren't following the magazines, I think you might have assumed that Vince Clark was still the songwriter and that nothing had really changed with, you know, the meaning of love in particular.
And Leave in Silence a little bit less so.
But in See You also a little bit less so.
But definitely the meaning of love sounds like something from Speak and Spell.
And then a song like A Photograph of You sounds like something from Speak and Spell in the worst possible way.
What good is a photograph of you?
Every time I look at it, it makes me feel blue.
Yeah, that might be the worst one on the album.
Yeah, wow, that's bad.
Yeah, it's a transitional album, but what's interesting is that it's the first of their transitional albums.
I would say that they had three, I'm not going to get off topic here, but they had three transitional albums, A Broken Frame, Construction Time Again, and Ultra.
Because with this one, okay, obviously Vince left, and it's just the three of them, Martin, Dave, and Fletch.
And with Construction Time again, it's those three plus Alan.
And then with Ultra, it's back to a broken frame, you know, minus Alan.
And that is kind of unique.
I think had they had Alan in the studio to make this, it would have been, you know...
Just a transitional album, but it would have...
I'm sure it would have sounded different, though he, at this point, would have exerted less control over the...
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because they, as the lore goes, and I've read this in multiple books now, I've seen some of these documentaries, the lore seems to be accurate.
Alan responded to...
I mean, that's what I've heard.
more than, you know, that would, I don't know, be a thousand dollars or a thousand pounds a week or something.
But it's still, it's...
It's not very much at all.
As the story goes, he really impressed them with his musicality because the other guys were amateurs when it came to being musicians.
He could play to a bass line and a melody at the same time and he could sing backup vocals.
He could do all this stuff.
He's a classically trained musician, which is pretty interesting.
It does seem like...
As creative as Martin Gore can be, he is someone who learned music in church group or something and picked up theory that way or learned theory on his own.
But nevertheless, that's where his musicality came from.
Whereas Alan had something very different.
He was not involved in the writing or recording of this album.
He was getting paid kind of like a stand-in.
They have a lot of these guys now when they go on tour, like Christian Eigner and so on.
They're not really members of the band.
I presume they are paid well to perform every night, but they're not paid royalties on album sales, I would presume.
And they're not really promoted as part of the band.
It's something else.
Like that for some time and kind of worked his way in.
So yeah, I guess in two albums, the next album, he'll be a force on Construction Time again in terms of writing songs.
And I think probably being a major influence as a producer with the sampling and so on that goes on here.
Although there is a little bit of sampling in this album.
Kind of interesting.
There's one song that might be kind of weirdly my favorite, but we'll get to that at some point, I guess.
Yeah, as far as Alan's audition, from what I understand, the audition's in December of 81, and they were impressed, like you said, but it was Daniel Miller, actually, who, while he was impressed with Alan,
he, for some reason, I...
Which I couldn't make clear just looking off of Alan's website, Recoil, in the biography section.
For whatever reason, Daniel was worried.
And I don't know if he was worried that it was going to look like Alan was basically Vince Clark 2.0 and he was writing the songs.
I think that might have had something to do with it.
Or, hey, this guy is classically trained.
He might completely take over and change the sound.
Not sure what that was all about exactly, but he had to actually lie about his age because they wanted somebody under 21 and he was 22 at the time, so he lied about it.
From what he said in interviews, it was pretty easy compared to what he had been taught to do.
I think the impression I get...
I was just reading the sections in Just Can't Get Enough by Simon Spence, which, again, it's a good book.
It's one of these kind of typical rock books where they tell you what's happening with the band, but they don't really tell you enough about the meaning of the music and so on.
So I guess that opens up space for us in a way.
You definitely get the impression that Depeche Mode didn't have to continue to exist.
That in some ways they wanted to create an album in order to prove that they were still around.
And also the immediate perception was that they might not be around too long and that clearly Vince Clark is an essential...
You know, component of the band and his leaving is going to destroy it.
So, I mean, Vince Clark almost immediately, with the same producer, Daniel Miller and Mute, started Yazoo with Alison Moyet, who is someone else from the neighborhood,
basically, and this great Contralto.
I like a lot of that stuff.
It's very 80s.
All my words slip away.
And anyway.
I can't believe you want to turn the page.
And move your life onto another stage.
And, um,
And he was having, I mean, those only you and so on were charting at higher rates than the meaning of love.
I mean, kind of understandably and deservingly in many ways.
But, you know, there was a sense that, like, where is Depeche Mode?
There is some of these anecdotes that...
We're relayed in this book of, you know, going there performing like the Ritz in New York City.
So they would do a North American tour, which seemed like they would fly from London to New York and do a few shows or something.
And people were saying like, oh, wow, this is Depeche Mode.
You guys used to be cool.
I mean, it was...
I don't know.
I mean, even to keep going was something.
So there is a line in here that's very interesting in terms of Vince Clark's assessment.
So he told us to smash hits, which is a kind of...
I don't know.
I mean, it's one of these fan mags, almost teeny bopper mags.
But he said, Martin's a genius.
He just doesn't know it yet.
Which is very interesting.
Two geniuses in the same band would be a rare thing.
What Vince didn't reveal, what he had never revealed, were the two things that had bugged him most during his time at Depeche Mode.
Firstly, he thought that songwriting should be his domain alone and didn't appreciate any interference.
So he, you know, accomplished that by going to Yazoo and just writing for a voice and so on.
Secondly, and more importantly, he couldn't bear Dave Gahan as a singer.
Dave's voice is going to change quite a bit.
But the other impression I got from reading this book is that Depeche Mode With Speak and Spell, we can listen to it now and project back on it all of our thoughts about where they were by the mid-80s or where they were in the 90s or the 2000s,
where they are with Memento Mori, etc.
But the perception at the time was basically a teeny bopper band.
And Anton Corbin actually said they're wimps with sense.
So this is the guy who would become their visual collaborator.
And it's not, you know, at all an incorrect perception.
And, you know, this also struck me, if I'm just going to kind of focus on my notes from the book as well.
So Daniel Miller, he shared a similar aesthetic that would come to bear on...
Even though Daniel Miller is Jewish, believe it or not, a Jewish music producer, we were both enamored with the visual look of what went on in Nazi Germany and what was and is still going on in Germany.
Audi, BMW, and so on.
This is Atkins, said.
Who is Atkins?
Yes. Martin Atkins was their art director from, I believe, at least, Okay, interesting.
So at this point, Anton thought they were gay.
Yeah. They always had a strong ethic for trademarks and logo styles and color schemes that somehow said strength and power.
In the same way the Russian communist iconography did as well.
Very similar.
Really, the images and the way it was presented.
Basically, they were...
What exactly...
Any of them think politically or the degree to which that affects their music, I think is, you know, a question to be answered.
And my strong impression here is that they didn't have many strong thoughts, politically speaking, and that they were kind of sheltered being raised in the burbs of Basildon.
But they wanted to kind of take on an aesthetic.
You know, almost in a way of, like, putting the cart before the horse.
You know, it's like, let's engage with this German stark aesthetic, and it will kind of improve our music over time.
Like, let's create the album cover, and then we'll kind of write music to fit it, or we'll get there at some point.
And I do think that there was a strong quality of that with Depeche Mode, particularly at this point.
Interesting. See, it's not contradicting anything that you're saying, but my sort of take on their aesthetic, especially at least this cover, which is probably their most famous cover,
is that it kind of fit with their humility as a band because it's got the Soviet peasant.
I think the kind of look that they were going for was like drab but exotic in the same way that the Soviet Union turned out to be drab.
But so many in the West at one time thought it was exotic and something to look toward or model maybe.
But yeah, I mean, I've heard Martin Adkins say those things about the influence of Basically, just fascism, futurism, Nazism in general in their music.
But I would not have guessed that yet with this cover.
But that's an interesting way to look at it.
Well, I think basically, and you see this a lot, where you want to go fasci, but you kind of end up in communism in between or something like that.
You know, like you're trying to...
You're inspired by images of the Third Reich, etc.
But you kind of can't go there.
And so you mediate it with communism or you put a communist mask on it.
And I definitely think that that is happening with this album.
Also interesting color scheme, that kind of reddish pink.
That you see on the album, the sickle.
In the vinyl, there's some more photographs that were made by Robert Griffin, I believe.
Brian Griffin.
Brian Griffin, excuse me.
The sickle is being waved.
There's this foreboding gray sky.
Yeah, amazing photographs.
That might be the best thing about the album.
I don't know.
I mean, it's up there, just in the sense that the photographs are so great.
Definitely. It's weird because I think that this album and the art is kind of like Black Celebration.
Because Martin Adkins admits, okay, the banner, that we liked the idea of the Nazi banner over the building, and so that was...
The inspiration are partly inspirational for Black Celebration.
Yeah. But they are both two very moody albums that while Black Celebration was kind of a flop, relatively speaking, to their other albums, immediately it became like a cult classic.
Whereas this one, it was just kind of...
Neither one of them really...
Did it.
It's not, you know, they're not Violator.
They're not Songs of Faith and Devotion.
They didn't really puncture the charge.
They didn't climb the charge.
Do you know what I mean?
I think there is something similar between these two albums because they're very both moody and it almost, I mean, with the exception of, you know, the singles really on A Broken Frame.
But, yeah, I just...
I think that there is something there.
Yes. Yeah, there's no doubt about it.
So what do you think is worth discussing in terms of the songwriting?
I mean, where are these songs coming from as well?
I mean, there seems to be a kind of hint in these interviews and books that some of these songs were from like...
Martin Gore's band Norman and the Worms or something.
They were kind of out there or something.
And Vince said Martin had been writing music since he was 14. He really did have experience in this.
Do you see that in some of them?
There's also the notion of...
There was kind of two breakups with Speak and Spell.
There was the breakup with Vince Clark, of course, and then there is the breakup of Martin Gore and Anne Swyburn, I believe is her name.
And yeah, it's very interesting, even just going back to the book here.
I reminded Anne of what Martin had said about the breakups with a devout Christian.
And an interview with Uncut Magazine.
She had me on Reigns.
She was ridiculous.
Anything was perverted.
If I was watching something on TV and there was a naked person, I was the pervert.
So it's a kind of interesting statement.
And these were young girlfriends that were riding around on the bus when they were doing a national tour of England and so on.
Funny, I mean, I don't...
Obviously, Martin rebelled against the Christian upbringing, but the more I read, I'm reinforced with this sense that they're kind of like from a small...
I mean, Baslin was like a neo-futurist community in many ways, but on another level it was like a small town community where everything functions around the church.
That's where you learn music.
That's where you meet friends.
That's where you get your first girlfriend in this case.
And
There's this kind of Christian element behind all this that is inflecting everything.
And even the kind of rebellion against it is going to be a very Christian rebellion.
By his, you know, S&M period and so on is going to be a kind of weirdly, it's going to be inflected by Christianity, I think, in ways that aren't appreciated.
But what do you think?
So you're saying that Martin and Anne's relationship would be like the new atheists versus like William Lane Craig or somebody like that?
No, not exactly.
I mean, I definitely, I think that he's coming from the same place as Anne.
And he does reject it, but in his rebellion against it, he kind of retains all that stuff.
Because I don't know very much about Martin and Anne's relationship.
Well, I don't think anyone does.
I mean, it's just out there.
It was something, they were teenagers at the time.
I'm just suggesting, the only thing that I do know about it is that...
She is described by Martin as a fundamentalist Christian and kind of overbearing and attacking him.
And I think that, you know, leave in silence is, you know, many took it as a reference to Vince Clark leaving in silence, which is kind of correct with what he did.
but it's actually about their own breakup.
If I only knew the answer, I thought we had a chance Or I could stop this, I would stop this thing from spreading like a cancer How can I
say I don't want to play anymore How can I say I'm heading for the door Oh, I can't stand this emotional violence Leave in silence
Leave in silence Leave in silence
What I'm saying is that there's a weird Christian guilt complex at the heart of where Martin Gore will go in the 80s with, you know, let's play master and servant or so on, or blasphemous rumors.
You know, I think that God has a sick sense of humor and so on.
There's this, it's a very Christian type of rebellion against fundamentalism.
Right, Judas and Condemnation being two other examples.
You know, with the track Leave in Silence, I mean, it opens up and it kind of sets the mood for the whole album.
I mean, it almost sounds like Gregorian chanting.
it does.
And that just tells you straight away, this is not speak and spell.
I think that just kind of shows that it's not speak and spell.
And another thing about that song is that Dave's voice is almost whispery.
It's probably due to the fact that he's so young, but it's something that he doesn't use that much.
Something he would use on...
What's that song off of Exciter?
When you're born a lover...
That kind of...
Tone that he's using is very, like, softer, more gentle, which he, you know, rarely uses.
But it's good to hear.
It was good to hear that on this album and just in general.
good change up.
I think you can also hear that synthesized choir in CU that is also something that you would never hear on Speak and Spell.
And I think we're kind of getting to that point of sampling noises.
You're almost approaching a point where you'd write a song like Sacred.
It's this hard, black, edgy...
There's almost like a choir off in the distance and so on.
I think this also is a really powerful transition.
*Music*
I mean, Simon Spence was saying in his book, the song that comes after CU, like, what is it?
Nothing to Fear or Have No Fear?
Nothing to Fear?
Yeah, Nothing to Fear.
It's like this Autobahn, you know, like, cross work.
I mean, I think they're experimenting with some things.
As many, like, duds as there are in this album, like Monument and some other ones, you have this, like, Demonstration that you can work in different styles.
You have Leave in Silence and see you pushing towards the style that they're going to create for the rest of the 80s at the very least.
And then you have nothing to fear as this almost like...
music*
Definitely reminds me of Crockberg.
And it's also kind of pushing towards that vibe of like, you know, I don't know, M83 or the, you know, the soundtrack to Drive with Ryan Gosling or something that's like, you know, retro futurist,
like 80s thumping kind of thing.
It's very, I find it very interesting.
And I think it's also this, you know, this kind of...
You're not trapped in one particular type of sound.
You're kind of working to who you are, but you can kind of reference things like this.
You can reference a little Kraftwerk.
Radio activity.
Discovered by Madame Curie.
Radio activity.
To
But what do you think is my favorite song in the album?
I'm gonna guess Sun in the Rainfall.
No, I do like that one.
What do you think that's...
We can talk about that for just a little bit.
Do you think that's a kind of leftist song?
No, I actually thought that was more of a comment on Vince's leaving a kind of...
All things must pass kind of song.
Things must change, we must rearrange them.
That's just the way, and it closes the album.
So I figure that's the bow on it.
Okay, we're done.
We're transitioning.
We're moved on from the old Depeche.
That's the message.
We must rearrange them or we'll have to estrange them.
All that I'm saying, a game's not worth playing over and over again.
It's a breakup song.
Someone will call, something will fall, and smash on the floor,
without reading the text, nor what comes next.
Seen as before, and it's painful Things must change, we must be ashamed Or
we'll have to restrain us All that I'm saying, the game's not for playing Over and over again The
game's not for playing
Things must change.
We must rearrange them.
Someone will call.
Something will fall and smash on the floor.
Without reading the text, know what comes next.
There's obviously no text messages at this time.
I would imagine that was like reading the newspaper.
Or a letter, maybe.
Yeah. Maybe it is a breakup song.
I'm projecting my own...
I'm projecting the album cover onto this song.
And you can always...
Some lyrics can remind you of a past girlfriend or something like that, and you project, oh, this is definitely a love song.
But I think all of the...
The majority of these songs are...
They can go both ways, and that's probably the point.
Even with the song Monument, it kind of is...
Touching on or like a foreshadowing of my monument, it fell down.
It's like it reminds me of when in Question of Lust, he says, it's a question of not letting what we've built up crumble to dust.
You know, that kind of, we're building up this, I don't know, idol of love or something, or this, you know, relationship.
And when the sight was found, we laid the foundations down.
It didn't take long before they came back tumbling down Don't feel that night You need
a little light I wish you're gonna see what it's gonna be like But
yeah.
Yeah, the song in particular, Monument, is not...
It's kind of radical in the sounds that they use, but it's quirkier than it is radical.
I think...
Would you agree with that?
Yes, there's no doubt.
I think that's a clunker, to be honest.
No, my favorite song is one that I do think has an esoteric meaning, and I'm not...
I don't think I'm just projecting onto this one.
And I also do think it's a nut that you can crack.
But it shouldn't have done that.
Oh, goddammit.
I was going to guess that one.
And that is also my favorite one.
Before, can I guess what you think?
Well, let's read the whole lyrics.
Okay, okay.
I imagine you know where I'm going with this.
But it starts out...
It almost sounds like some...
You know...
Mega church choir.
Not a mega church, but some Basildon choir where their plans made in the nursery can change the course of history.
Remember that.
Plans made in the nursery can change the course of history.
Remember that.
Yeah, and there's some harmony going on.
You don't quite know who's singing.
It's the whole band.
Mummy's Annoyed says, go and play.
Don't show your face.
Stay away all day.
Shouldn't have done that.
So you have this young boy of, let's say, three or four or five who's not getting the intention from mom.
And then a small boy and his infantry.
So he's playing with toy soldiers, marching around so naturally, shouldn't have done that.
So he has a kind of imagination in youth and that imagination is Marshall.
Grows up and goes to school.
nice boy obeys all the rules.
Mummy's proud of that.
school to follow his ambition.
Knows what he wants, to be a politician.
Shouldn't have done that.
Mm-hmm.
So, I mean, just to give it away, I think he's singing about Hitler.
Hitler. Hitler.
Leave school Just for his admission Knows what he wants To be a politician Shouldn't have done that I mean,
it's evocative and kind of nebulous.
And there could always be, as Mark Braun would say, a kind of exoteric alibi in the sense of you could always say, oh, no, this is about this labor politician or whatever of the 1970s.
Fair enough.
But when I read those, that's immediately what comes to mind.
And I don't think that's just me or something.
You just have this image of someone, I mean, particularly with the change history.
And at the beginning, it's kind of set up that way.
And yeah, I mean, this understatement of shouldn't have done that when you're talking about Otto Hitler, it's kind of funny.
I mean, it's...
It's ironic and kind of like...
I don't even know what the right word is.
It's kind of ridiculous.
It's like, oh, we invaded Poland.
Oops. Shouldn't have done that.
Kind of like a naivete to it or something?
Well, a naivete and tremendous understatement.
Which is interesting.
But you actually kind of wonder what's going on in there.
What's going on with this album?
This kind of...
As they remember it, they're already talking about evoking a fascist aesthetic.
It's a communist record cover.
Whether there's any real leftism in this album is kind of possible, but not very potent.
And then you have this kind of weird little homage to Hitler thrown in.
It's funny.
I don't think that's misreading anything.
Contra Dave Gahn, I don't really think the imagery or anything has been misread on your part.
But one of the things that, I mean, when it opens up with plans made in the nursery can change the course of history.
It made me think of like childhood and things happening, you know, or that could go awry in early youth and even, you know, in utero, that kind of thing.
But it also seems to be a kind of anti-power song.
Like, oh, he became a politician.
He shouldn't have done that.
That's when I first heard that.
It is a kind of anti-power song.
Yeah. I don't think it's a pain to Hitler.
I do think it's a nod.
But yeah, there's a kind of cheap psychoanalysis of if only Mummy had loved him or if his father hadn't beat him, he wouldn't have Done the Holocaust.
I mean, it's just kind of...
Not the childhood doesn't affect...
Yeah, I mean, not the childhood doesn't affect your adult outcome, but it's obviously...
It's a kind of cheap psychoanalysis.
But I don't know.
I do think there is a little...
I guess you could say kind of like libertarian...
We shouldn't have done that.
We shouldn't have given him toy soldiers.
We should have loved him more or something like that.
Sure. I think that's there, too.
And I think that's kind of part of Martin's personality, which is quirky and childlike.
Yeah, I think there is a big, like, childish kind of perspective or aspect just to a lot of Martin.
It's kind of like a shyness, you know, to a lot of his...
And that's probably influenced by the way that you look at him.
He's not a big guy.
He doesn't have the attitude of Dave or anything, but it comes across in the lyrics, especially songs that he sings, which are the more intimate kind of ones.
I think that this album, I think with the exception of...
One single.
This actually charted higher than Speak and Spell.
Oh, really?
Okay. Than any single off of Speak and Spell.
See you charted at number six.
And Meaning of Love went to number 12. And Leave in Silence went to 18. Now, these are all in the UK singles charts.
But, you know, for example, like New Life.
Went to number 11. Just Can't Get Enough went to number 8. And Dreaming of Me went to number 57 on the UK singles chart.
The album went gold, too.
It's not platinum, but in a lot of ways, it was good enough.
It was still a success.
It still had the radio-friendly songs to be a success.
You think of Broken Frame, you think of a broken structure.
It's definitely a comment on...
I'm sure it's a comment on Martin's relationship with his ex-fiance, but it's also a comment on certainly Vince leaving.
And I think that Vince had the vision for Speak and Spell.
And I would certainly say that Martin has a vision, but it's kind of cloudy in a lot of ways.
And that might have a lot to do with his...
Lack of musical background or whatever it might be.
He's definitely the ideas guy.
I think that's pretty clear.
But I think that Alan would later fix the broken frame, if you will.
I hate to be so cheesy and say it that way, but I think it's Martin's vision through Alan that really creates some of their best records.
You have got to be the biggest Alan Wilder advocate maybe on the planet.
I don't disagree, but that's interesting you would say that.
And I don't disagree the more I think of it.
Because he's kind of Martin Gore's advocate.
Like, he would turn something from what Martin Gore would write and kind of transform it and massage it into something great.
Enjoy the Silence being maybe the best example.
Words like violence break the silence come crashing into my little world painful to me pierced right through me can't you understand oh my little girl all I ever wanted all I ever needed is here in my arms Words
are very unnecessary.
They could only do harm Vows are
spoken to be broken Feelings are tense, working
To pick a song and make it more poppy, more disco is definitely not Alan's thing, especially if you listen to any recoil.
None of that stuff is poppy in the least.
But I guess what I'm trying to say is they need each other in the same way that Roger Waters and David Gilmour need each other.
But yeah, I think that's the...
The magic, I guess, about them.
And just a comment on the production.
I mean, yeah, like you said before about Monument, a lot of the stuff is just quirky.
And, you know, it's certainly not their best.
No. They're also getting to a point.
This is another thing I read, and I believe in Simon Spence.
They're getting to a point of starting to record by...
Or maybe this is from a documentary.
After this album, they're starting to record putting a microphone on an amplifier from a synthesizer.
They're almost treating it like an instrument as opposed to plugging a synthesizer directly into a mixing station.
They're kind of moving...
To the degree to which that is more, I don't know, live or acoustic or analog or whatever, I think they're moving towards that.
You were about to say something before I added that.
Well, just to comment on that, the other thing too, by putting the microphone up to the amplifier is that you get the sound of the room, you get a little bit more atmosphere, maybe a little bit more reverb, which would definitely be bigger in their records after a broken frame.
What would you give this out of 10?
I mean, I would give it a 7, but I gotta say that if you listen to the Depeche Mode live at Hammersmith in 1982, these songs are so much better live.
They're so much better live.
I mean, Dave is...
Yeah, I mean, Dave's really shining, I have to say.
He's just, obviously, a great showman.
Yeah. Yeah, I think Seven is fairly generous for this album.
I mean, there's some things I like about it, but in our kind of ongoing, always revised ranking, I still would probably put this at the bottom.
Dead Last?
Yeah. Okay, alright.
You're not a fan of Satellite?
No, I'm not a fan of Satellite.
I'm a fan of No Fear.
What is it called again?
No Fear?
Nothing to Fear?
Nothing to Fear.
I'm kind of a fan of that quirky song.
I like the sun and the rainfall.
It's kind of nice.
Shouldn't Have Done That is not like...
Great musically, but it's just kind of evocative.
It includes that sampling of that clapping or marching, which I think is an evocation of marching soldiers at the end.
I think Photograph of You is perhaps their worst song ever written.
I like the singles.
I like Leave in Silence and See You and Meaningful.
I think those are kind of fun singles.
So, I don't know.
Yeah, I would agree.
I think the vision is kind of split.
One foot in Vince Clark, or trying to sound like Vince Clark, and one foot in Martin's sort of psyche.
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