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Sept. 12, 2021 - RadixJournal - Richard Spencer
47:14
Cruel To Be Kind: The Case For Abortion

Ed Dutton and Richard Spencer explore the recent anti-abortion bill in Texas, how to think about abortion morally (and not liberally), and the eugenic effects of legalized abortion on demand. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit radixjournal.substack.com/subscribe

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Time Text
Evolution does not necessarily reward intelligence.
With no natural predators to thin the herd, it began to simply reward those who reproduce the most and left the intelligent to become an endangered species.
Having kids is such an important decision.
We're just waiting for the right time.
It's not something you want to rush into, obviously.
No way.
Oh shit, I'm pregnant again!
I got too many damn kids!
I thought you was on the peel or some shit!
Hell no!
Shit!
Must've been a thing with Britney.
Britney?!
Don't give me a...
There's no way we could have a child now.
Not with the market the way it is, no.
Oh, God, no.
That just wouldn't make any sense.
Come on out of here, bitch!
He don't care about you!
Yeah, well, there must be something he likes over here!
You don't mean that to me, baby!
Oh, shit!
It wasn't me!
It wasn't me!
Well, we finally decided to have children, and I'm not pointing fingers, but it's not going well.
And this is helping.
I'm just saying that before I have in vitro, maybe you should be willing to...
It's always me, right?
Well, it's not my sperm count.
Yeah!
I'm gonna fuck all of you!
That's my boy!
Cleavon is lucky to be alive.
He attempted to jump a jet ski from a lake into a swimming pool and impaled his crotch on an iron gate.
But thanks to recent advances in stem cell research and the fine work of doctors Krinsky and Altschuler, Cleavon should regain full reproductive function.
Put your hands on my jug!
*BANG*
I think the thing is that they don't seem to understand.
They shoot themselves in the foot, these pro-life type people.
It's that we have detailed data on the kind of people that get abortions.
And we have detailed data on the heritability of the traits that are involved.
Women that have abortions are helping to remove people like them, that is to say, antisocial, unpleasant people, from the gene pool.
We must be cruel only to be kind is generally my attitude towards this.
That's a phrase from our guy Hamlet.
Ed, how are you?
Yes, I'm alright.
I was watching the second Jurassic Park movie with my son, and he seemed to enjoy it.
And then otherwise, I've just been working on some research on dysgenics.
And that's been the day.
You?
Similar activities for me.
No Jurassic Park yet, but we have been watching the Jurassic Parks a lot, and I actually kind of like, particularly the first one, and great stuff.
But of course, we actually even went hunting for actual dinosaur bones.
I haven't done that yet.
You've got a chance of finding them where you live.
I don't think they've ever found any serious dinosaur bones in Finland.
No.
Out here in Montana, it's T-Rex country, and they're just all over the place.
If you go to a site where there's a lot of bones for whatever weird reason, like an ancient riverbed or something like that, you're just literally stumbling over T-Rex jaws and all that great stuff.
Oh, exciting.
Oh, well.
So, some of these places where we went are actually mentioned in the first Jurassic Park.
I think he says, I have a plane waiting in Choto.
That's where I literally was in that town.
Anyway, let's get started.
So, we're going to talk about a very, very difficult and divisive and sometimes heart-wrenching or stomach-turning subject, and that is abortion.
This whole issue of abortion seems to never really leave the political scene, at least in the United States.
And forever, it's been a seemingly kind of 50-50 split between pro-life and pro-choice, at least those monikers.
That's not exactly accurate, however.
Roughly 70-75% of the American public more or less supports That is, they are kind of effectively pro-choice or effectively status quo.
But there certainly is a very organized, very passionate pro-life contingent that is always there and that is, at least for the past 30 years, been associated with the Republican Party.
In fact, they've kind of forced their will upon the Republican Party to a very large degree.
But I wanted to talk about this more seriously.
First off, I'll mention some details about the Texas law that was passed last week, just in case any of our viewers haven't been paying attention.
It's a rather strange law.
For people who don't know, there is a very famous Supreme Court case, Roe v.
Wade, Right to privacy within the Constitution.
So, so much of abortion legislation really has been done through the Supreme Court.
And I think that's actually a big problem to begin with.
But that Roe v.
Wade law has been maintained for 40 some odd years.
And this law that was passed in Texas doesn't directly challenge it.
And that's some of...
Kind of the weird thing about it.
It makes abortion providers and even those people who assisted a woman get an abortion, though not the woman herself, I should add, liable in civil court to $10,000 judgments that can be brought by anyone in the country.
It's a really strange way of going about it.
And I think this is one of the reasons why the Supreme Court, at least for the time being, has punted on the law.
Claiming that there has been no harm yet, even though abortion providers have effectively shut down.
Basically, you could live in Montana and you could hear about a woman who got an abortion after six weeks and you could sue her, not sue her, sue the provider or sue, say, The person who drove her, sue the person who paid for it, sue the guy who made a hamburger for her beforehand.
I don't know.
There must be some limit.
But it does open up space for this just free-for-all of lawsuits, and that has made providing abortions effectively impossible.
So after six weeks, there are no abortions in Texas.
But again, because you can take people to court, which is just inherently debilitating.
I think it raises questions of how many abortions are going to be taking place in Texas at all.
I mean, you could sue someone.
Are you sure it's six weeks?
Are you sure it's six weeks since you've been pregnant?
It's before six weeks.
I'm not so sure.
I think it might be seven, so I can sue you for 10 grand.
It is a strange situation, to say the least.
I don't quite know what's going to happen, but this is where we are.
But I think what Ed and I should do, because, of course, there's all of this talk about this.
This law, this seems to be, this is going to affect the midterm elections.
It's overshadowed COVID, at least for a time.
But I want to take a step back and really talk about abortion and fertility.
And also, I think how you can morally think about abortion and how abortion has been viewed in the past.
So Ed, you know, we think about these The anti-abortion crusade or the pro-life cause as being a Christian thing.
Not even just a conservative thing, but a Christian thing that's Catholic and evangelical.
Evangelical Christian.
It's worth mentioning that it might even be a political cause more than a Christian cause.
When Roe v.
Wade was decided, The Southern Baptist Convention endorsed the decision.
And they said, we all respect a woman's right to privacy.
It was only later that it became the centerpiece of the religious right and became very important in left-right politics in America.
But what has been the Christian response to an abortion throughout?
The ages.
Well, if you go back, well, it depends what do we mean by an abortion and what do we mean by a miscarriage.
Now, you have this idea that I remember that there was this debate in the 2008 presidential election and Barack Obama and John McCain were debating abortion and John McCain asserted that life starts at the moment of conception.
And that stuck in my mind because Barack Obama said, well, I think this is a complicated question, which is...
And so I was quite interested in that.
It's actually quite complicated.
So St Augustine of Hippo wrote that when an unformed fetus, so that's the moment of conception and quite a long time after, he said it perishes like a seed that has never been fructified.
And he said he wasn't sure whether it should be understood to be human.
So Thomas Aquinas held what is called a hylomorphic view.
A hylomorphic view is that every natural body consists of two intrinsic principles, potential, namely primary matter, and actual, that is, substantial form.
So what that means is you can't have, like, the body is the outward expression of the soul, so you can't have a soul if you don't have a body.
That was his view.
And he further took the view that an embryo, therefore, has a vegetative soul.
It has the soul of a vegetable to the extent that a vegetable has one.
As it develops, it obtains an animal soul.
And only when it is a fully and clearly developed human does it have a human or rational soul.
So the view of Thomas Aquinas, doctor of the church, leading theologian, was that very, very, Pre-premature children do not have souls.
And accordingly, in 1312, based on this kind of thinking, at the Council of Vienne in France, they banned the baptism of severely premature babies.
It's not exactly clear what the cut-off point was.
You've got some people saying it should be 30 days after conception, some people saying 60 days, some people saying 6 months.
But this was enforced until 1895, and it was up to the priest, when confronted with this live fetus, to decide whether the fetus was human and thus deservant of baptism or not.
So it did oppose abortion.
You weren't allowed to have abortion because the Bible says you can't.
But basically it took the same kind of view that medieval Islamic theologians took, which was that you could have an abortion before 120 days, because before 120 days it is not human.
That was their view.
I could add that this is very important from a Christian perspective.
I was hoping he could just join in.
It's funny, my dog, he didn't come into camera, but he walked down at the exact same time.
It's almost like they're communicating instinctively and digitally.
That's my conclusion, at least.
It's not a coincidence.
But it is actually important from a Christian's perspective in the sense that, I mean, one moral dilemma of Christianity is what do we make of, say, a primitive savage in an island somewhere who's never heard the word, the good news of Jesus Christ, and thus haven't put their faith in him and repented and are thus going to hell?
Isn't that just profoundly unfair?
Christians have answered that question in multiple ways, but it actually is a serious issue of whether a severely premature child has a soul or not and should be baptized or is going to hell or actually does not have a soul that could go to hell.
Yeah, just finishing up, there was another idea that you had in medieval times, which was that the fetus only had a soul once it was quickened, that is to say, inside the mother.
There was an English surgeon called Thomas Vickery, who died in 1561.
He said the fetus gained a soul at 46 days, and he said not every lump of flesh should be baptized, which lacks every arrangement of organs.
He wrote St. Alphonsus Liguri, the doctor of the church, since it is universally accepted that the soul is not infused with a body until the latter is not infused until the body of the latter is formed.
And you know Maimonides, the Jewish sort of early medieval theologian Maimonides?
Oh, of course I know him.
Maimonides, yes.
Now Maimonides had this, he invented this concept of the Nephil.
And the nephil is the neonate who is doomed to die.
And if the child was born early, it was a nephil rather than a proper human, and therefore it didn't have a soul.
Fascinating.
I think things have changed quite a bit.
I mean, as we've talked about this, the pro-life movement has made a very strong claim that life just begins at conception, the moment the sperm hits the egg.
And I think any reasonable person would agree that something has happened, at least potential for life or some kind of life form has occurred.
I think the wide availability of ultrasounds has probably shifted consciousness a little bit in the sense of you have a kind of photograph of a fetus and you feel like, well, this is clearly a real person.
I think that has changed opinions.
I mean, we should remember that abortions are declining pretty significantly since the 1970s.
I think for many different factors.
But they still make up, from what we were looking at, between 18 to 20% of all pregnancies do end in abortion.
And thus, it's an issue that...
I think there is a great deal of moral ambiguity in it.
We're going to talk about the effects of it later.
But one thing that I've noticed, and which it's always bothered me, I generally support abortion rights.
But is that the pro-life movement never wants to actually go after the mother in terms of persecution or criminal charges or civil charges in this latter Texas scheme.
So there was a moment in 2016, it's largely forgotten now, but Donald Trump had discovered that he was pro-life like many other.
Republicans who want to seek the Republican nomination discover that, like George Herbert Walker Bush and many others.
And he was asked, you know, oh, you want to ban abortions and would this be criminalized to the extent that women would be arrested?
And Donald Trump thought about it for a moment.
He said, well, yes, we would have to do that, which is a reasonable response.
If you're going to claim that this is murder or at the very least a crime, you're going to simply have to Take into account the woman who has the abortion.
And he got hit from both sides.
So the liberals freaked out, of course.
But then the pro-life movement freaked out.
At that point, they hated Trump.
And they were saying, well, this is not how we think about the issue.
And you kind of do have to think about the issue in that way if you're going to declare this murder.
The fact that women can't be sued, but the abortion provider can be sued in Texas.
It's morally speaking, it's the same thing as saying, well, we want to arrest the hitman who's profiting off murder.
But the person who hired the hitman, oh, well, she's an innocent victim of the profiteering hitman.
Give me a break.
In England, anyway, prostitution isn't illegal.
But being a pimp profiting from prostitution, that's illegal.
But actually being a prostitute is not illegal.
So it's a sort of similar silly equivalence.
And not giving agency to women, by the way.
No, they're not.
If anything, it could be considered a highly sexist set of laws.
A highly patriarchal set of laws.
But I think the thing that they don't seem to understand, they shoot themselves in the foot, these pro-life type people, is that we have detailed data on the kind of people that get abortions.
And we have detailed data on the heritability of the traits that are So there was research indicating abortion.
People that have abortions, and particularly people that have multiple abortions, which is 42% of women that have had an abortion, have had more than one in England, have different personality traits for those that have not.
People that have abortions are high in histrionic personality traits.
That is to say, they are attention-seeking, they are low in agreeableness, they're just basically unstable and not very nice people.
They are high in narcissistic personality traits.
Which includes low empathy and low altruism.
And they are high in antisocial personality traits, that is to say psychopathic personality traits.
So the kind of women that have abortions are on average narcissistic, psychopathic and histrionic.
And the heritability of these traits is at least 0.5, if not higher, if not more in the region of 0.6.
And so women that have abortions are helping to remove people like them.
That is to say, antisocial, unpleasant people from the gene pool.
They want that.
They're crying out.
Like in Ireland, you have these appalling witches on this bus from Dublin to Belfast singing this song to Val Dunican.
We need abortion.
Making light of it.
We need abortion.
Quick, simple and free.
Please, surely, let them have abortions.
They want...
Yeah, we must be cruel only to be kind is generally my attitude towards this.
That's a phrase from our guy Hamlet.
But it's hard for me not to agree.
And I think there's also been a, and this is even worth discussing in itself, there has been a But
it's not something that we want to...
Make it legal and just open up this huge can of worms by doing that, including throwing, potentially at least throwing women in prison.
As you know, in my book, Which is Feminism and the Fall of the West, I talked about this where I did an article on a woman that had had three abortions.
This is what I wanted to get to.
Talk about her a little bit.
Well, okay, yeah, let's talk about her.
So I met her at a conference, an academic conference, and then one day, years ago, whenever it was...
Ten years ago, when I was working for this English language newspaper, I put out that abortion in Finland is the most restricted of any Scandinavian country.
You have to go in and say you want an abortion, then you have to go and think about it for a week or something, and then you have to go back.
There's no abortion on demand.
It's more strict conservative here.
And so I thought, well, this is in the news.
That's my hook.
So I'll do an article about it for the newspaper about abortion in Finland.
I'll interview someone that's had an abortion.
So I put out on Facebook.
Look, has anyone had an abortion?
If so, get in touch with me anonymously.
And this girl wrote back and said, I volunteer.
And she hadn't just had one, she'd had three.
And the first one, she was going out with this boyfriend and he was a drug addict and whatever, and so she had an abortion.
Then she got pregnant and she kept that child.
And then the third time, she...
She didn't feel bad about it because she took the morning after pill, which just didn't work.
That was the second occasion.
So she felt that's fair enough for me to have an abortion.
And then she got pregnant another time.
So she obviously just didn't learn from her mistakes.
She wasn't able to efficiently use contraception.
I got the distinction.
She was underweight.
She was underweight.
So I got the impression she was quite sort of mentally unstable, which is consistent with the kind of people that get abortions.
And yeah, and then so she told me all this and I did the article and then sometime later I met her in a cafe just by chance and it was just really tense because I knew too much and she knew I knew too much.
It was horrible.
Nothing to say to each other anymore.
And I think that there is a sense in which she did feel, because she said so, that she felt what she was doing when she first did it was very, very wrong.
And she remembered crying and saying, my baby will never see this sunrise.
She felt on some level that it was murder.
And I think on some level a lot of women do think that.
Even if they have it, they still kind of think it.
And I think a lot of us, it kind of is...
You kind of can't help but thinking that that embryo, even if it has got no consciousness, it's got no feelings, whatever, but it has the potential for life, for human life, and it's completely and totally reliant on its mother and on the love of its mother.
It's totally reliant on it in the way that that mother was once in the same position.
Right.
On her own mother not to fall down the stairs, not to drink, not to...
Stick a knitting needle up herself in a warm bath, whatever.
And it is the most vulnerable member of our community, or future member of our community, and yet it is the member of our community that has less rights than an animal.
And so you can see the cognitive dissonance that it brings about.
It does have, I agree.
Hopefully something that's interesting to say on this.
Real quick, on Less Rights Than An Animal, I did find it fascinating that Pete Buttigieg, the one-time presidential candidate who we talked about a year or so ago, he and Chaston, or Chaston, or not so Chaston, they have had a surrogate child.
And they actually photograph themselves in a hospital bed for some reason, holding a newborn.
And it's interesting, because I recently got a new dog, and you usually wait about six weeks with a puppy because the dog needs to breastfeed, bond with his mother, bond with his siblings, and so on.
A human child, however, is ripped right from his mother's arms and put into the hands of Chasten.
It is rather shocking.
Pete Buttigieg has a husband.
Yes.
Is he a queer?
He's very brave.
He is a queer.
You're the only one who thinks he's not gay.
You're like, is he a quack?
He's a quack.
He's definitely a quack.
No, it's a definite...
You know that sketch we did about it.
It's a definite problem.
It's something that makes me personally unsure.
But on the one hand, there is some sense in which a community that triumphs over other communities in the battle of group selection has a sense of itself.
as sacred and a sense of itself as God being on its side.
God bless America and God bless our troops, all that.
A sense, therefore, of the sanctity of life And all of this sort of thing.
And abortion and the fact that Christianity, which I'm going to argue in a future book, is highly group selective, sanctifies life like that, is perhaps part of its success in a way that others don't.
I mean, abortion is perfectly acceptable.
You'll get women that are pregnant among the Yanomama of Venezuela and they'll get their friends to jump on their stomachs.
Or they'll just commit infanticide.
They'll have a child and they'll just literally kill it because they don't want it.
Although Venezuela is a Catholic country, but I do continue.
I don't think it extends to the animama.
I think they have their own.
And exposure, of course, the Greeks practiced exposure.
Aristotle wrote about his disbelief that the Egyptians didn't practice exposure.
So it was perfectly, if you had an unhealthy child, you just left it out.
Whatever.
And so there's this sanctity of life element, which they are lacking.
But on the other hand, there is something...
Logical about it.
I mean, if you think about the chaos that's happening in Ireland now, this has gone from being an extremely religious conservative society, which it was the first time I went there in 2002, to within 10 years or a bit more than that, being more woke than England.
And it's just incredible how much it has flipped.
And it strikes me that it might be relevant to that, that they didn't legalise abortion until a few years ago.
So all of these histrionic, narcissistic, psychopathic women who in England since 1967 would have been proportionately more likely to have abortions, in Ireland probably would have been less likely to.
OK, the ones that had a bit of money would make their way to England and have an abortion in England.
That was a well-known phenomenon, the abortion boat to Liverpool to get an abortion.
But otherwise, so you've just got this build-up of ghastly people, and those were the very people that were making their way on that bus to Belfast, singing their light-hearted song about abortion.
Right.
It's this ironic cycle of a...
Christian society kind of sets the stage for a decadent society that is going to become anti-Christian and then maybe back again.
I would add this.
I mean, I agree with most everything you're saying.
I would add this.
The way that people argue for and against abortion is all within the confines of rational liberalism.
And so, for instance, Yes, you can certainly find a pro-life Christian who will simply say, this is in the Bible.
No, we follow the Bible literally.
We can, of course, find that.
But what you mostly find is an argument that goes something like this.
This person, first off, life does begin at conception, even if a fetus or even an early multiplying cells are not conscious.
There is that spark of life, and so they must be treated like a human, and they are the most vulnerable humans out there.
So this is all liberalism, human rights-type arguments.
And where else do they go with this?
Oh, right.
A lot of people who are pro-choice will talk about rape.
Or, you know, child molestation or incest or some of these just really terrible things.
And the pro-life answer to that is, well, it's, you know, rape, incest, molestation, those are already crimes.
But the life, and so anyone who engages in that should be prosecuted.
But the life in question is not the woman, it's actually the child.
And the child has not engaged in rape or incest or child molestation.
So his rights should be protected.
But it's all that human rights...
Kind of dogma.
The other liberal version of this, whether it might just be based on just pure choice and, oh, it's great to get an abortion so you can go have more sex and career or whatever.
But if they actually want to explain it, they also explain it within terms of liberalism.
So this is your body.
And you are in control.
You have total sovereignty over your body.
You can do with it whatever you want.
You can be abstinent.
You could be a pornography actress.
It's up to you.
And a parasite in your body kind of does not have rights over you.
That is the movement to this individualistic worldview.
But both are individualistic.
I guess what I'm saying is...
Permit me if I just say this, and I'm not trying to be...
But Immanuel Kant criticized pure rationality.
What he understood is that if you engage in just pure reasoning, you're going to reach a paradox at some point.
And Zeno found this out long before Plato.
What he meant is pure reason is actually limited.
And it has to interface with the real world to be taken seriously.
Both of those arguments, which I represented, are pure liberal reasoning.
And they're both kind of right.
And I don't think they're ever going to defeat the other argument because you're just engaging in the abstract language of rights in both cases.
And yeah, there's a little feminism potpourri thrown in here and there's a little bit of Christian.
Spice thrown in here, but it's still a liberal argument, and you just can't get past that.
A counter-argument is that we are a group-oriented species, and yes, you are an individual woman, but that child, that fetus, is part of the group.
Right.
It's distinct.
Forget about whether it has rights.
I don't care about that.
It's part of the group, and it's a matter for other people, not just you.
Yes.
Would you say that men should become warriors and women should birth warriors, all else's folly, perhaps?
I wouldn't say that, but it's their relative.
Right.
What I mean is you make a non-liberal argument.
It's their child.
It's their nephew, their niece.
Co-ethnic.
And it relates to them.
And you relate to them as well.
And so this idea that you're separate and distinct from the body, from the group of which you're part.
No, you're not.
You're reliant on that group and its cooperative interaction and what it produces and whatever in order to survive.
And therefore you can't be separated from it in such a black and white way.
I think that's the argument.
And I also think that I quite like Dave Chappelle's argument, which is that Well, why is it that the women have the right?
They can just say, I can have an abortion.
OK, that's their right.
Well, then surely the man should have the right to say, look, bitch, if you're going to have this baby that I don't want, then I don't have to support it.
He should have a right as well.
Surely he should have the right to say, look, I don't want to have this child.
You're going to go ahead and have it.
I don't want it.
So I shouldn't be hassled to support it.
but he does make some quite intelligent points, Dave Chappelle.
But, yeah, it's, I mean, But all the intelligent points is when you get away from liberal rationality.
I guess that's just what I'm trying to put forward.
It's like engaging in pure mathematics to understand politics.
You're just going to reach these weird paradoxes.
Both liberal arguments are correct.
I can't find, like...
I think it actually is moral to apply pragmatism to the case of abortion and ask, who's having these abortions?
Well, yes, indeed.
I mean, we know it doesn't, there was research by Michael Woodley of Mani and his team, which found that there's no, There's no correlation between intelligence and abortion.
You'd think there might be.
Perhaps there is now, and perhaps it's changing.
But when he did the study, you have two kinds of people that have abortions.
You have these low IQ people basically that leave it too late and they can't use the morning after pill and so they have to have an abortion.
And then you get sort of middle class, unpleasant people.
Yeah.
And also older people, just women that are older.
Right.
And they find out they've got a child with Down syndrome or something, and they have an abortion, and they'll often be more intelligent.
And so they sort of cancel each other out.
So abortion doesn't seem to be doing anything to intelligence.
It certainly doesn't seem to be reducing intelligence.
It may even be increasing it, because it strikes me that the abortion statistics now, for America anyway, are that it's overwhelmingly poor of people who have abortions, and those people will tend to be of lower intelligence.
And I guess this is because people that are increasingly people that are more educated and rich just aren't having babies.
And so having babies and thus abortions is a matter for the less well-off.
And then, of course, it's those personality traits.
And those personality traits, I mean, they are dysgenic.
Those are the kinds of people you don't want in the society.
I mean, talk about a Christian perspective.
There was actually a British, the Dean of St. Paul's Cathedral, the very Reverend William Ng, and he presented a Christian case for eugenics, including abortion.
And he said a good tree, he said the Sermon on the Mount itself implies that humans are animals that can be worse or better bred.
And he said, a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
It says that in the Bible.
And he said, this is quite clear saying that we should have eugenics.
And he said that eugenicists believe that unless civilization is guided by scientific principles, it must come to ruin.
We stand by scientific as against emotional or sentimentalist ethics.
And he was a leading Christian of his time.
I mean, look, God bless him, but that's not...
You rarely hear those kinds of sentiments from Christians.
In fact, what we've seen is a kind of reaction to the Texas law of almost endorsing dysgenics, of promoting Down syndrome births.
I think 80 to 100% of which are terminated in European countries like France and Iceland.
I was looking at the statistics of these.
And the majority of them are terminated in the United States through abortion.
But again, the people who are really in support of the tech, We're just...
They were becoming almost radically dysgenic.
70% in the United States Down Syndrome, 90% in Britain.
And in Iceland, they have a policy that they want to be Down Syndrome free.
You do notice that.
I remember when I was a child, you would see these people with Down Syndrome about.
Now you don't.
They're all dead.
There aren't new ones.
Some of them host podcasts.
Finland has a rate of 50% only for Down syndrome.
Right.
So you do see quite a few of them here.
And the expense involved.
I mean, the expense and the illness and the whatever.
It is unbelievable, the expense.
Yeah.
And the constant chronic illness that they have.
It's a huge, long list of...
Terrible problem.
Right.
And we're just in a different society.
Sadly, we just have to recognize this fact that children were once considered assets and are now considered liabilities.
Now, I am perfectly willing to impoverish myself on behalf of my children because I get it.
But the fact is, you don't have more kids and then they help out at the farm.
And it's almost like this just benefit.
You're getting...
Dividends from children.
No, you have children and you raise them.
That's a lot of time, money for education and so on going forward, and whether they're going to actually take care of you when you're 90 or something.
You hope so, but it's not guaranteed.
We just had a different society where, first off, abortion was not as readily available, but a few Down syndrome kids in the village, they could help out or...
run around and play and so on.
Bringing those people into a post-industrial, post-modern world is just a different story.
And again, in order to deal with these questions morally, I think you have to interface with reality.
I'll just mention this at the risk of sounding like shrill liberal, but the Texas governor recently gave a press conference.
And they ask him about the issue of rape in this abortion law.
And he said, well, I guess you have to get an abortion quick, basically.
But then he said, this is Texas.
We're going to end rape.
We're going to just round up the racists, get them off the streets.
That's how you solve a problem like this.
It's just this childish abstraction that we don't live in a fallen world where there are crimes like murder and rape.
Incest, abuse.
I too want all these people thrown in prison, but the idea that you could just end it through being Texas tough guy sheriff is absurd.
And it makes it sound like you're not a tough guy at all.
You're just living in some childish fantasy realm where you can pass a law and rape is no longer an issue.
Rape is an issue.
Rape is an issue with abortion.
Just face reality as opposed to...
And if a woman is raped, she is more likely to get pregnant than if she has consensual sex, because the man produces, as I looked at in my book, because the man produces more semen when he rapes, because it is unconsciously a matter that has evolved to gang rape and thus to sperm selection, so he produces more semen when he rapes, and also if you're more aroused by rape, then you're more likely to rape, and in prehistory you would have passed on more of your genes, so there's this fusion of sex and violence.
So you're more likely to get pregnant by a rapist, and that person will have psychopathic traits, which will be passed on to your child at a rate of 50%.
So, you know, it's not a good idea to bring the child of a rapist into the, you know, particularly the kind of rapist that grabs, you know, lays in weight or whatever, an opportunist, into the world.
So you can, but then on the other hand, you get this, there is this...
Deep emotional argument.
I mean, have you heard of the British comedian Spike Milligan?
No.
He's very famous in the UK, and he famously wrote this, of course, typical leftist comedian, but he wrote this poem called Unto Us.
There's a hymn, Unto Us is born a son.
And it goes, somewhere at some time they committed themselves to me, and so I was small, but I was.
Tiny in shape, lusting to live, I hung in my pulsing cave.
Soon they knew of me, my mother and father.
I had no say in my being.
I lived on trust and love, though I couldn't think each part of me was saying a silent, wait for me, I will bring you love.
I was taken, blind, naked and defenseless by the hand of one whose good name was given on a brass plate in Wimpole Street and dropped on the sterile floor of a foot-operated plastic waste bucket.
And then eventually he says, no grief filled my empty space.
My death was celebrated with tickets to Danny LaRue, who was pretending to be a woman, like my mother was.
Danny LaRue is a transvestite comedian.
So, yeah, harsh stuff.
But there is a sense in which you react like that.
It's almost like a pro-life poem.
It is!
Oh, it is a pro-life poem.
Okay.
Yeah, it makes it...
I remember a friend of mine told me that his wife had had an abortion aged 18. They met, you know, nine, eight years later, but she'd had an abortion aged 18. And he just found this horrifying.
He just couldn't get over this.
How could you do such a thing?
And even though all of the rational and reasonable argument, she was only 18, she made a mistake, she got pregnant, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You just couldn't...
You could never come to terms with the fact she'd done this.
Right.
And to get back to your idea of like a...
The modern world is the crucible of evolution.
So if the driving engine of evolution to a very large extent was child mortality...
Previous to the Industrial Revolution, it's something, I mean, again, evolution is saturated with death, and that was the driving force of evolution.
Now we have passed to a point where child mortality is 1% or even less, and there almost needs to be new crucibles.
And if you want to move forward, if you are fanatically dedicated to your line, Continuing, you will survive this.
And if you aren't, or if you have, again, histrionic or nihilistic traits, or you're just, or you have those middle class traits of like, you know, how could we have a baby?
The market as it is, you know, this type of, you're overly thinking things and overly planning as opposed to just going out and doing it.
There's a good to be impulsive.
Yeah, you're going to lose and you're going to die, but there has to be some funneling mechanism.
There has to be a bottleneck for humanity in some way.
As I've said, it's wokeness.
Is the new crucible of evolution.
Wokeness gives you abortion if you want it.
Wokeness induces you to be masculinized if you're a woman and thus drop out of the dating market or be feminized if you're a man and thus drop out.
It induces you to not have children and believe life is pointless.
And if you've got the genetic propensity to resist it, then you will have life.
So we have brought ourselves this new crucible, and I think abortion is part of that.
And that might even be why the numbers are going down, because the kind of people that are going to want abortions are being selected out.
And so what you end up with is the kind of people that either cannot be inculcated, that basically can't be inculcated with wokeness, because they're just genetically...
Old-fashioned, or just too stupid, just too utterly stupid to care.
Those two, and they often can't be inculcated with woke desire because they're too stupid to be brainwashed with such things, too instinctive.
So you get those two, that's what's left.
That's what I think is going on.
But I just, you can't help but thinking, moving as that Spike Milligan poem is, you can't help but thinking, you say, okay, yeah, that baby, that's a random baby.
But if that baby is in the womb of some...
Blue-haired weirdo on a bus singing about wanting an abortion.
Or a rapist fetus lying in wait in the victim's womb, just waiting to rape more people.
You should write a poem about that.
Let's talk about Spike Milligan's poem as utterly manipulative and simplistic.
It's manipulated me, in fact.
I knew where it was going, but it was hard not to be a little touched.
But, yes.
All right.
Okay, that was a good talk.
Sorry, let's just crystallize it.
Abortion, right or wrong?
It's right.
I mean, I have to say it.
I have to be just brutally honest.
I think that there are many more less evil ways of...
of engaging in eugenics than abortion, and that should be engaged in.
But I think it is imperative that we maintain the legality of abortion.
I say imperative that we maintain the legality of abortion for woke people.
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