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Jan. 24, 2020 - RadixJournal - Richard Spencer
01:02:06
Richard Spencer Interviewed by The Hake Report (01/24/2020)
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One, two, three, four Oh, it's the Hake Report The Hake Report La la la Oh, it's the Hake Report The Hake Report La la la Hey guys!
Oh, it's the hate report, the hate report, la la la.
So, what's up guys?
I am James Haik.
This is hour four of the Jesse Lee Peterson show on Friday, January 24th, 2020.
Thank you, Jesse.
Appreciate it.
And shout out to everybody on youtube.com slash jesseleepeterson1, dlive.tv slash jesseleepeterson, mixer.com slash jlptalk, and periscope.tv slash jlptalk.
Appreciate all you guys hanging in there.
And I have a very special guest today.
But first, let me just give a heads up before I forget.
Church with Jesse Lee Peterson is this Sunday and every Sunday, 11 a.m. here in Los Angeles.
Go to rebuildingtheman.com slash church.
Rebuildingtheman.com is Jesse Lee Peterson's non-profit bond website.
Offer counseling there.
You can call 800-411-BOND.
Get Jesse's books and all that.
Rebuildingtheman.com slash church.
And make sure you're subscribed to the Bond...
Oh, you forgot to change my background.
The Bond Rebuilding the Man YouTube channel.
It's an excellent YouTube channel.
So, I still look like I'm on the Jesse Lee Peterson show.
But we'll get that fixed.
So, let me get right into this.
Because I have like two hours worth of questions for my guest.
And I was supposed to interview him on Monday, but I got major food poisoning.
I ate a burrito.
We need to deport all burrito makers.
But I have with me Richard B. Spencer, president of the National Policy Institute.
Nationalpolicy.institute, I think, is the website.
He's an author, editor, activist, streaming podcast host.
You can find him on YouTube and elsewhere.
He's one of the most publicized figures of the alt-right movement in recent years.
Three-time guest so far on the Jesse Lee Peterson Show.
On Twitter, at Richard B. Spencer.
His first interview with Jesse, if you're wondering, was titled, Whites Need Identity Politics to Survive.
The second one, he takes calls.
Jesse asks if he's the head of his wife.
Pretty memorable, fun interview.
And then the third one was after his University of Florida speech, which turned into a riot because the left is and always has been more violent and destructive than the right.
Talks about Antifa and forgiving his father.
Interesting interviews.
So, Richard, thanks for joining me.
I appreciate it.
Well, thanks for having me on.
It's my pleasure.
I'm glad that you survived the burrito incident.
Yeah.
And that we can talk.
It is a bit metaphorical, you could say.
So, first, very important, I want to get this before I forget.
A JLP, Jesse Lee Pearson, faithful viewer and moderator named Brandon Johnson says hi to you.
He said he met you in Charlottesville.
He said he met you in Charlottesville, Virginia.
I think at the Unite the Right rally, I'm presuming.
He's black.
Good guy.
That's cool.
Oh, I think he actually might be another guy.
I think he was there at the Charlottesville event in May.
I remember this person.
Yeah, he is a good guy.
Yeah, very cool guy.
He's a very faithful viewer.
So, before I get into the real interview stuff, please debunk or confirm...
Some Wikipedia smears on you.
I personally prefer Info...
Oh, yeah.
I prefer InfoGalactic.
It's much more sane.
I peeked at their bio of you.
It's much more...
Sounds more accurate.
Do you openly embrace the term white supremacists?
No.
Okay.
No.
Are you a neo-Nazi?
Sorry, you broke up there, but I presume your question was, are you a neo-Nazi?
That's correct.
Yes, no, I'm not a neo-Nazi.
I've never put on that garb or done all that stuff or said that we need to return to National Socialist Germany or anything like that, so no.
Alright, that's two strikes for Wikipedia.
Do you advocate for violence against non-whites?
No.
I would like anyone to...
Point me to evidence that I ever did that.
I know.
I'm curious.
In fact, you're like the object of media-promoted violence against whites.
Hashtag punch Nazis, anybody?
That was a big thing two years ago.
And yeah, that was an absolutely dangerous situation.
That's probably how some people who have...
I know nothing about me, know that I was attacked, assaulted in the head by Antifa on Inauguration Day in 2017.
Did they ever track down the suspect?
No.
4chan and the internet was doing an investigation, and they came up with some interesting suspects, people who were truly degenerate people.
But nothing was ever really confirmed, so I don't want to jump on any bandwagon.
But at some point, it doesn't really matter.
I mean, Antifa is a big hive.
and, you know, weird stuff.
And I don't know, they're kind of not actually individuals, right?
They're just a crazed mob of people.
And they certainly were incited against me as well.
So I don't know the finding the actual person.
I mean, that would be great if that could happen.
But it doesn't really matter that.
That's true.
I mean, most people get away with their violence, especially on the left, especially when they're able to wear masks.
So should...
Here's a couple more, real fast.
Should whites enslave Haitians?
I think that came from a podcast I did where I—no, I did not advocate slavery.
What I was basically saying is that empires of the past were kind of open with their domination.
They would say, we're going to go take some territory here and maybe get some resources and slaves to boot.
The current kind of interventionary stuff is, let's actually go into a country and pour— Five trillion dollars into it and bring democracy and stay there for 50 years.
And I was basically making a rhetorical point where I just kind of prefer the old style of empire, kind of more just, let's just kind of, let's just do it, you know, go in and take resources or something that seems a lot more honest.
I don't know, financially efficient than liberal humanist intervention.
That was my point.
No, I was not advocating for slaving Haitians.
That's complete nonsense.
It's certainly not going to happen.
You know, they said that you support ethnic cleansing of racial minorities from the United States and from some other, I guess, Turks from some other place.
I got onto a rant one time about how we should retake Constantinople.
Oh, nice.
Yeah, so no, it was obviously a bit...
You know, fantastical.
But no, I do think that that would...
I would be confident that the West was the West again, that we were confident in ourselves that we, when we, you know, retake Byzantium and Istanbul becomes Constantinople again.
So I said this as a, you know, kind of thought experiment.
And of course, you know, you can't say...
You can't be interesting online.
People will...
You know, then declare that, oh, look, he's advocating for violence or whatever.
Well, I mean, Joe Biden.
But I'm just going to continue to be interesting.
You know, I'm going to talk and try to be provocative in the best sense of the word.
I'm not going to ever call for violence or anything like that.
And I'm not going to actually demean other races.
I mean, I don't think that's proper.
But I'm going to continue to be interesting and say things that are provocative.
And at this point, I've been smeared to such a degree that...
One more thing doesn't matter too much.
True.
Joe Biden, you know, he supports so-called peaceful ethnic cleansing of whites into a minority status in the United States.
He does.
It's wonderful.
Well, it's funny that I'm attacked, yet all of these people who are treated as, you know, elder statesmen, like Joe Biden, have literally led to the deaths of millions of brown people.
I mean, the estimate in Iraq is that hundreds of thousands, maybe a million people have either been killed and more than that have been displaced, injured, had their lives ruined.
And so on.
And yet I'm the bad guy because I said, let's retake Constantinople, which is obviously a provocative, you know, let's go get him type thing.
And yet the people who are actually in charge are treated as, you know, respectable and peaceful individuals.
Yet I'm the bad guy.
Yeah.
You know what?
Do you support abortion?
I generally support abortion rights in the United States.
I am not pro-life in the way that you would probably define that.
How about sterilization?
Sterilization.
We're getting into kind of eugenics questions and so on.
I mean, these are serious issues, and we're not anywhere close to this.
The eugenics movement was a kind of American thing.
People like Madison Grant, Lothrop Stoddard, and others, they were very interested in natural conservation.
They were founders of the National Park Systems, with the Redwoods, Glacier Park, where I am, and so on.
And they recognize something that is very serious, which is that natural selection, as we knew it, is not having an effect when it comes to human beings.
And that there is going to naturally be a kind of degeneration of...
of people and how do we get out of this problem that is brought on by the Industrial Revolution, fossil fuel revolution and so on and then now, you know, feminism and so on that we need to We need to be aware of the problem, which is that we are engaging in dysgenic breeding.
That is, the best people are not having children.
They're forgoing it.
And let's just be brutally honest here.
Some of the worst people who don't care about their kids, who don't want to invest in them, who aren't the best stock, are just breeding like rabbits, and that we need to at least be conscious of this and do something.
But yeah, I am very concerned with these issues.
These might be some of the most controversial issues you can talk about, but it's a very serious thing.
Yeah.
So is that a no or not necessarily, or as far as sterilization itself?
I think that the most humane thing to do would be to offer contraception for people, and there are some Systems like a Norplant system or things like that,
where basically we can allow people to have fruitful, productive lives, but contraception is obviously a completely humane thing to do.
So these are all heady things.
These are not policy issues that are going to happen in the next 10 years or so, but I am at least willing to go there.
I'm willing to talk about these things.
You know, I want to get to more questions, but I have a caller who wants to ask you about an incident from a few years back.
So let me get to him.
Steve out of Los Angeles.
Steve, you there?
Yeah, what's up, Hank?
Hey, go for it.
Hey, Richard.
Just for the record, I'm a supporter.
I like your message.
I think it's a positive message.
It's a pro-human message.
I'm all about it.
I just wanted to ask you, um, you said that you, you know, you never associated with neo-Nazism or anything like that, or you never kind of, like, bared that, that, um, donned that costume, but I remember a few years back, uh, there was, like, an incident where there was, like, some hotel, and there was, like, Tila Tequila, and there was, like, this famous clip of you saying, like, Hail Victory, which is, like, a pretty clear, obvious...
reference to Nazi Germany.
So I just kind of wanted to hear you reconcile those two Sure.
Yeah, there is a famous photo of a party with Tila...
Tila Tequila, who's a former reality show star and so on, basically engaging in some hijinks.
I gave a speech in 2016 that was about 10 days after the election of Donald Trump.
And it was a very good speech, but the thing that is most remembered about it is the closing lines, which is, Hail Trump, Hail Our People, Hail Victory.
And it was certainly meant to be provided.
Yeah.
At the same time, I don't really regret saying that, and I think it was actually really right in the moment, in the sense that, obviously, hail our people, we need to always think about that.
This is why we're fighting, is for our broader family, our community writ large.
Hail Trump, he just accomplished something absolutely miraculous, something that, to be honest, I'm not sure I really believed he could do.
Hail Victory, it should always be about victory.
You know, I grasp that these things are provocative, but if you can't say them or at least say them in your heart, then you shouldn't be in politics.
It is about, politics is ultimately about winning.
And it's a zero-sum game in the sense that some, you know, other people win, we lose.
We win, they lose.
And so it should be about victory.
Thank you, Steve.
So, again, I knew that I was being extremely provocative.
I didn't quite know how provocative I was.
But I certainly don't renounce those sentiments.
So, how do you feel, or are you aware, about being called the White MLK?
We just had MLK Day, Martin Luther King Jr.
Day on Monday.
I was supposed to interview that day.
Right.
Were you aware that you were referred to by some as the White?
Or MLK, Martin Luther King Jr., for white people.
Well, I'll take that as a compliment, actually.
You know, I think it's worth criticizing Martin Luther King, but I think it's...
Maybe more important, maybe a little bit more difficult to see the good things about him.
He was undeniably brave.
He was much braver than most white activists in the sense that he was willing to go out there and serve time, get beaten up, maybe even be killed, as he eventually was.
He was certainly brave.
His rhetoric doesn't always appeal to me.
And it was, after all, Republican rhetoric, which he plagiarized, of the black children and white children holding hands and all that kind of stuff.
That doesn't always appeal to me.
But there are actually some things about his rhetoric that appeal to me.
And it's actually that one line that everyone knows, even if they know next to nothing about MLK.
And that is, I have a dream.
He was a visionary, and he wanted to bring a dream into reality.
It wasn't about, oh, let's...
Do slow, pragmatic progress.
We want integration, but do we have a plan to pay for it or something like that?
No, it was about, I have a vision for a better world, and we should bring that into reality.
And that is absolutely inspiring.
MLK wasn't as interesting to me as a, say, critic of society as someone like Malcolm X. And at this point, MLK You know, he's become kind of meaningless.
And in the MLK Day, the significance of it has faded.
I can remember when I was a kid in the 1980s.
I was born in 1978.
And, you know, obviously I was quite young, but it was a very controversial thing.
Should we actually have a national holiday for a non-president, someone who was recently controversial, etc., who had, you know, some communist roots?
And so on.
And then it became a kind of national holiday.
This is the most important day.
This expresses who we are as a people.
And I think now it's kind of forgotten.
It's just a long weekend for people.
And even the left doesn't talk about it.
Actually, the right might talk about MLK more, just in the sense of, we don't want identity politics.
MLK was against that.
Well, not quite.
They're not quite right about that.
But whatever.
It's kind of become a conservative holiday, and it's forgotten.
And the holiday that has surpassed it in length, in celebration, etc., is gay rights.
I was actually in New York City during Pride Month or something, and the hotel that I was staying in was decked out in rainbow flags.
There were rainbow flags everywhere.
Every weekend, there's some new thing.
That has surpassed MLK.
In a weird way, I kind of find it sad for black people who have certainly struggled more, suffered more than gays, and it's not even a question.
But the fact is, the gay rights holiday is kind of the perfect holiday for America in the 21st century.
The gay lifestyle is about...
I mean, let's be honest.
Obviously, I've known some people who are homosexual, who are perfectly decent.
I've probably known more who are nasty individuals, if I'm to be perfectly frank.
But what is the gay lifestyle at the end of the day?
It's about consumerism.
It's about not investing in the future, i.e.
having children and sacrificing yourself for your children.
It's about just being silly, buying a new Coke can with a rainbow flag.
It's a bunch of silly nonsense at the end of the day.
And so it's the perfect holiday for America in the 21st century.
We can claim to be leftist and about human liberation, but it's ultimately about capitalism and consumerism and similar nonsense.
Back to these controversial figures.
Okay.
It was also recently Robert E. Lee's birthday observed, right?
And it used to be, in some states, Lee Jackson King Day.
What's your take, very briefly, I know, on General Robert E. Lee?
He was an absolute hero and a patriot.
A man I respect tremendously.
He was also, it is worth pointing out, someone who reluctantly joined the Southern cause and did it out of a communitarian patriotism, of I'm going to fight for Virginia.
He was actually offered the reins of the Union Army, but he fought for his home state.
So he's an absolute hero and a gentleman.
Actually, when I lived in...
Alexandria, Virginia.
I was not too far away from a church, an Episcopalian church, that he attended.
Much has changed.
The Episcopalian church actually has a giant menorah in it, and they have rainbow flags outside and say that everyone's welcome, except me, of course.
So it's kind of a sad trajectory for my mother church, the Episcopal church.
I have some important stuff that I want to get to.
In the historical documentary titled The Big Lie, the filmmaker Dinesh D'Souza, I think that was the one that you appeared in, compared you to Democrats.
I'll take it.
I wish Democrats were more like you, to be honest.
The Democrats are pure evil.
They're worse than they were during slavery.
They're worse than the Nazis.
Your only problem that I know of is that you're atheists.
You don't necessarily seem that pro-Trump anymore.
I don't know.
But at least you have some respect for the Christians.
Democrats don't have any.
Or whites.
Or men.
Or anything.
Well, I think it's...
You know, I'm a little bit conflicted about that.
I mean, first off, if someone wants to call me a liberal Democrat, then I'll take it.
I would much prefer that to be called literally Hitler.
So, you know, thank you, Dinesh.
And also, I would say that I met Dinesh and his wife, and they were...
Perfectly nice people and respectful, so I don't really have anything against him, to be honest.
I might disagree with him strongly, but he seems like a good guy.
But yeah, in terms of the Democrat Party, I guess I'm conflicted about it, because there are two...
There are kind of three aspects to it.
First off, there's the centrist Democrats, maybe represented by Joe Biden, who are basically Republicans and neoconservatives.
They go along with all the Republican wars.
They're not going to really change anything.
thing.
They're beholden to billionaires and they'll talk the talk, but it's ultimately the same old crap.
There is another aspect of the Democratic Party, which I think we both agree is exceedingly toxic and disgusting, and that is the woke Democrat Party, which is.
We'll go along with the Joe Biden stuff, but is absolutely opposed to white males, is absolutely in support of endless mass immigration, is absolutely in support of things that you and I probably couldn't even imagine.
Even five years ago.
Really recently, we need to have...
You know, federally sponsored surgery for eight-year-olds who think they're another gender.
You know, my daughter thinks she's a dinosaur.
So, I mean, you know, well, I say that just to point out that children are inherently kind of confused and conflicted and so on.
That's part of being a kid.
It's not a big deal.
It's good, you could even say.
You have to grow and kind of discover things.
And the fact that we would have these crazy doctors who would be willing to perform the surgery, I mean, it's just absolutely shocking.
And then parents who are basically the ones, probably more guilty than the doctors, the ones pushing for this, saying, "Oh, you think you're a boy?
Oh yeah, let's have this irreversible mutilation of your body." The fact that this is even positive, So I would say, yeah, there is an aspect of the Democratic Party which is beyond toxic.
But, you know, there's another aspect of the Democratic Party that I'm not really opposed to, to be honest.
And I think it's Bernie on his best days or Tulsi on his best days, which is basically...
Sorry, phone rang there.
I apologize.
There.
We have too much technology.
The Democrat Party, which is kind of Bernie on his best days, which is, you know, we pay more than any other country on health care.
And yet people are going bankrupt on health care.
People don't have access to it.
Premiums are, you know, going out the roof.
We need to offer some basic things for people, a kind of social Democrat from the mid-20th century.
And the fact is, I've been to countries, I've lived in countries like Germany and France.
They're pretty civilized.
I'm not really opposed to...
The best things about the Democratic Party, the UBI concept that Andrew Yang brought up, Medicare for All, just generally, the Democratic Party is the place where you're able to criticize capitalism and so on.
So I think there are some good things.
I don't think it's all evil.
And it's kind of the interesting thing where...
You know, with the Republican Party, you have a good message to a degree of family values and traditionalism and patriotism and so on mixed up with we support free market capitalism, we support neocon wars, and we support all these politicians who just lie to you all the time.
Fuck family values and never do anything.
And then the Democratic Party, you have this, okay, we want to give kids healthcare now.
We want to help out working people.
We want to help out families.
That's all good.
But then they mix it in.
In the sandwich.
Whoa.
The real center is basically not really a synthesis, but it's breaking up that left-right divide.
The real center is social conservatism, just normalness, you could say, plus...
Things like Medicare for All and just kind of social democracy from Germany in the 1960s.
That's the real center.
And so we are radically polarized, but actually on a lot of key issues, there's not a lot of disagreement.
You know, Medicare for All is popular in the Republican Party.
If there's someone who could break that left-right divide, they could actually make this country pretty livable.
But they've got to go against the woke stuff, and they also have to go against a lot of Republican orthodoxy as well.
All right.
So, you were interviewed by Jesse Lee Peterson a few years now, I guess.
What did you think of Jesse's interviews and Jesse Lee Peterson?
I'm just curious.
I've always liked Jesse Lee Peterson.
I've listened to him quite often, and he just seems like the kind of guy I would like to have a beer with, so to speak.
He's just a bass guy.
He's really honest.
And I've just always liked him.
What did you think of his forgiveness message, his overcoming anger?
Do you remember that at all?
That stuff?
Maybe you could remind me a little bit.
Well, his whole thing is men need to become men again by overcoming anger, forgiving their mothers, returning to their fathers, things along those lines.
That's his primary push, believe it or not.
Right.
I think that that is generally good.
I am certainly one who can get...
I'm controlled by anger a little bit.
I might not seem it now.
I'm generally an affable guy.
But yeah, I definitely am one who, you know, I can get angry at the world.
I can get angry at some person who's, you know, I felt betrayed by and so on.
And I've always felt better.
I felt energized when you've been able to, you could say, move on or overcome it and say, you know, I've made mistakes and I've been I've been wronged, but I'm moving forward and so on, and I'm not drowning in it.
And that's always when I feel the healthiest and when I'm most energized and want to go do stuff outside and so on.
And I think a lot with the kids as well.
Over the past six months, I won't go into details, but I have gone through a divorce, so you could probably intuit what I'm talking about.
But yeah, there have been times when I've wanted to You know, punch the wall and scream and whatever.
But when you have children, you have to realize that you've just got to put that aside.
Put it in a box and store it away and maybe deal with it at some point because, you know, the fact is anger is natural.
I mean, sometimes you should be really angry, but you've just got to store it aside and you can't bring that into your relationship with your children.
So I do think that, you know, being part of a family and so on is a really important thing for health.
You know, the millennials and I guess Zoomers now who are...
We're coming of age are radically lonely people.
And some of these statistics I found absolutely incredible.
The lack of friendship.
You have tons of online friends, but no friends in real life.
The lack of sex.
Which is interesting.
You know, usually old people are like, ah, these young people these days, they're having too much sex.
No, it's kind of the opposite, and it's a very sad thing.
It's loneliness, watching porn as opposed to dating someone, not to mention marrying them.
And I think a lot of people, when you don't have real-life connections, you can kind of drown in your own anger and self-pity and rage.
on.
Are you an atheist or agnostic?
Well, I've described myself as a kind of tragic atheist in the sense that I'm I don't resonate in the slightest bit with the happy atheism of people like Richard Dawkins and Peter Hitchens, or not Peter Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens.
Peter Hitchens is a character of a totally different color, his brother.
Christopher Hitchens and so on, where it's, oh, we just need to give up on God, and then everyone will be liberal, individualist, you know, gay pride.
something.
I've never bought into that in the slightest bit.
I do think that since, at the very least, the 19th century, Europeans, white people have been undergoing a spiritual crisis.
This isn't something that derives from the 1990s or something.
This is a long-term spiritual crisis that Nietzsche caught God is dead.
Nietzsche was not claiming, we killed God, and we need to reconcile with deicide, with this spiritual catastrophe and our listlessness in the world.
And so I guess I recognize that, but I'm not someone who thinks that atheism is somehow good, or that the world is going to be happier that way.
I think that civilizations need a spiritual core.
Individuals need a spiritual core.
And if we lack...
A spirituality that unites us.
The white race will...
It might survive, but it won't survive in a happy, productive...
Or flourishing state.
And so that's how I would describe myself.
I recognize the spiritual crisis that we're undergoing, but I also recognize the need for public religion.
I don't think that there's really a separation of church and state, and that's not a historical...
Not only is that perhaps not exactly what the founders meant, maybe Jefferson kind of meant it, but that's...
That's an ahistorical way of looking at religion.
Actually, religion is public.
Religion isn't just something you do in private.
You can read a book by Marianne Williamson in private and get the feels and have a little emotion in your tummy about spirituality and crystals and whatever.
But real religion is public.
It is about being in a community of believers, and it is ultimately about believing in yourself.
As a people, with a God in some way as a symbol of your power.
And so we need that.
We've evolved to be religious.
That is who we are.
And the peoples or civilizations or states that have that religious basis are going to dominate the world.
And the little atheist individuals are going to lose out.
So those are my feelings.
It's very interesting.
I'll just do a quick plug here.
I'm actually publishing a book in February.
It's at the printers right now, but it's called Why Islam Makes You Stupid But Also Means You'll Conquer the World.
This very issue, he looks at Islam critically and recognizes that it does kind of make you stupid.
It suffocates critical and creative thinking.
There are other aspects to the dogma of, you know, genital mutilation and constant praying and fasting and so on that are actually bad for your intellectual health, you could say.
But at the end of the day, it is people who follow a faith like Islam who will ultimately dominate the world.
In the sense that Islam makes you more ethnocentric.
It makes you believe in yourself.
So it's a kind of, you could say, ambivalent book, and I think it's going to be very thought-provoking.
Interesting.
Who is the author?
I think you broke up when you were mentioning him.
Edward Dutton.
Yeah, Edward Dutton.
So were you raised Christian?
Were you raised Christian?
More or less, I was raised...
Yes, more or less.
I was raised Episcopalian, whether you consider that Christian or not.
You know, I noticed that, like, with this embracing your race as your extended family, I noticed that blacks do this, but they don't have their own families together, so they reject family.
They reject their fathers, definitely.
And embrace race and gangs as like a placeholder for that lack of family and original love that they were supposed to have, it seems like.
Hmm.
Anyways, that's just a side note.
You said that Christianity was a reflection of who we are as white people.
So, is Jesse Lee Peterson right when he says that he is white on the inside, black on the outside?
He kind of is right.
Maybe that's why I like him.
I would never insult him by calling him an Oreo, so to speak, but I think there's a bit of truth there.
It's funny that he says that himself.
I wish all blacks were like Jesse Lee Peterson.
I truly do.
There would be very few racial issues.
Yeah, true.
So, I think I recall Ann Coulter once criticizing you.
I think I remember her saying something along the lines of criticizing you as like a media whore.
Which may be my harsh paraphrase.
And I could be...
Totally misremembering it, so apologies.
No, I think I've seen her say things like that, yeah.
That's generally the conservative line, and she is still connected with that, which is that, you know, we've been ignoring Spencer for a decade, but it's the liberal media that promoted him and so on.
I don't regret basically talking to the media in the sense that it was a...
They were playing their own game, which I acknowledge, which in 2016 to 2017 was, oh, let's bash Trump by connecting him with this, you know, Richard Spencer, this, you know, wild theorist and so on.
But I think on another level, they were actually...
I was actually interested in what I was saying, to be honest.
But it was also a great way to get the message out.
Now, the media can turn on you, and the media starts to create smears and cringe videos and so on.
So it's a dangerous game to play.
But the fact is, I have been ignored and attacked by conservatives for a decade.
I just created AlternativeRight.com and John Derbyshire actually mentioned something on National Review.
He was immediately rebuked and censored and so on.
So conservatives basically want to ignore this kind of thing.
Conservatives are always punching right, so to speak.
They want to be the most extreme or radical thing out there, and they don't want anything stealing their thunder.
They don't want anything criticizing them and so on.
So I don't have much love for conservatives.
I agree with Ann Coulter.
I think there's a tendency among, you know, Trumpists and...
Hardcore conservatives, where they're now talking about things like, we've got to get tough on immigration, and demographics are an issue, and all this kind of stuff.
This is the kind of thing they should have been talking about in the 90s, but they weren't.
And we're now in a very different place, and we now need to move forward, not so much talking about Poor immigrants are going to ruin America or something, which isn't exactly true.
We could go into that.
But we need to be talking about our own identity and not just assuming these things or ignoring them.
So I think we need to move beyond this.
And the fact that Ann Coulter kind of sounds like Peter Brimelow from 25 years ago, I kind of find...
I don't know, a little bit wrong.
And then beyond that, it's like what I hear from a lot of them now is Trump needs to talk about immigration more.
He needs to talk about it in 2020 when we can win.
Well, you know, he should have done something about immigration.
He should have, as opposed to doing this terrible health care plan, he should have focused on changing the immigration, legal immigration paradigm in 2017 and just spent his political capital on the things that really mattered.
But he didn't.
And now he doesn't have Congress.
After 2020, he probably won't have the Senate.
And so that window has closed.
They had a moment, the kind of mainstream immigration restrictionist groups.
They had their moment and it's passed and we need to start moving on.
I don't want to be in a situation where Republicans, whether it's Trump or in 2020.
We've got to get tough on this stuff.
It's all rhetoric.
It's all BS.
And I'm basically sick of it.
I want us to actually get real.
But I also think that we need to be thinking about what's going to be relevant in the future.
Immigration, the demographic change.
Is baked into the cake.
As of 2012, I believe, the majority of births in the United States were to non-white mothers.
So, you know, this, you know, there is that 2050 number from some time ago of that Bill Clinton announced in the late 90s.
By 2050, America white, there'll be no majority in America.
Whites will be a minority.
It's now at 2040.
It might actually be sooner than that in the mid-2030s.
So this is happening and we need to think about how we're deal with this reality with a multicultural multiracial reality in which whites are hated in the United States.
We're going to have to deal with that and just kind of race baiting on immigration so that Republicans can hang on to a majority.
You know, until your interviews with Jesse Lee Peterson, all I had seen was your interviews, a couple of interviews in the media.
And so I had agreed with Ann Coulter.
I'm like, ah, I disagreed with Dylon, who was then my intern.
I mean, he was then my intern.
Now he's like my kind of de facto producer.
I thought the same.
I thought that you were kind of like a media whore.
But now I see your cause as white unity.
Has your ego ever hurt that cause?
Of course.
Look, I'm pretty self-confident, and I think highly of myself.
I can admit that.
But, you know, I don't know what to say to people who criticize me for having an ego.
Do this?
Have an ego.
You've got to have an ego at some point if you're going to put yourself forward, if you're going to enter the forum.
It's like saying, gosh, Troy Aikman, his ego really got in the way of him being a Super Bowl champion quarterback.
Well, did it?
Or is the mere fact that he was willing to risk his life to go on the football field?
And win and lead the troops and criticize people when they need to be criticized.
You have to have a big ego to do it.
And much like a great hero has to have a little bit of a self-destructive side to him.
A great hero has to put aside mundane concerns and risk something and maybe fail in order to become a hero.
You know, I get it.
I think maybe, you know, if someone's a bit narcissistic, that can be a problem.
You know, am I a perfect person?
No.
But, you know, if you're going to enter the forum, you're probably going to be an arrogant jerk.
And that's a feature, not a bug.
So my de facto producer, Dylan, is a fan of both you and Ann Coulter.
He even named his cat Spencer.
You may recall that.
I remember that.
People started calling him, and this might be a little bit chaggot for it, because he's a good-looking guy, and yet he's such a fan of another man.
But he does have a girlfriend.
He's not gay.
He says that you look like you should be in a white nationalist boy band, the Fash Street Boys.
Does that exist already or something?
Well, if it were to ever exist, I would, yes.
There's some funny videos of me singing karaoke, so yes, I would join such a band.
That would be a lot of fun.
I hope I'm not too old.
Are you a genuine person?
I think I am a genuine person, and you know...
The things that have gotten me in the most trouble have been my honesty.
I tell it like it is.
And I also don't play games, and I don't try to speak to the crowd.
There are a lot of people in my movement.
Who I would criticize for just kind of going with the flow.
Basically, they read the room of their chat forum or whatever, and they just kind of repeat back to them what they want to hear.
I actually tell them what they need to hear, not necessarily what they want to hear.
And most of all, problems in my life have resulted from my brutal honesty.
So I think that if you just look at my actions and how I've behaved...
I've suffered due to the fact that I'm quite genuine.
But I am who I am.
I'm not doing this.
If I had simply gone to law school or whatever, sold real estate or whatever, gone into corporate America, I could be sitting pretty right now.
I had that background.
I had that educational basis.
But I didn't.
And I think that's the sign of a genuine person.
This might sound out of left field.
Do you share my admiration and respect for Bill O 'Reilly?
No.
No?
Okay.
Not at all.
That's alright.
Many people don't, alright?
And people that I like don't.
Anyway, I was just curious.
I've heard many on the right and many people, period, talk Crap, for lack of better vocabulary, right?
About you.
But I haven't really seen you respond in kind.
Except maybe about Trump on Twitter a little.
But generally, I have noticed that.
Many of them I would think that you would get along with.
Any, well, I don't know.
Any word for your critics?
You can name names.
I'm not really interested in naming the names.
But any word for your critics on the right, generally?
In brief.
I think you might care more about me than I care about you.
Okay.
I'm sorry to say.
Yeah, I mean, look, I'll talk a little you-know-what here and there.
Locker room talk, I guess, as it goes.
But when I criticize someone, I want to seriously criticize them in the sense that I want to...
In a way, give them the respect that they're due.
I'm criticizing you because I think that what you're doing is kind of wrong, but also importantly wrong.
And so, yeah, that's why I would criticize someone is if they are significant in some way.
But yeah, the kind of, you know, I don't want to...
I engage in self-pity, but yeah, when the amount of trash that is thrown my way, and kind of contradictory trash as well, like I'm CIA, or I'm gay, or I'm a crazy neo-Nazi, or I'm fat.
I've seen that.
I do cocaine.
I've seen all of this.
You know, it's all this kind of...
Contradictory garbage that's just thrown up against the wall to see what sticks.
I get a lot of it.
And at this point, I have skin like an elephant.
Right on.
Or rhinoceros.
What was the word?
Doesn't bother me.
Do you have self-control?
I do have self-control, but I also have passion.
And so, you know, when I'm on something like this, I'm...
I can certainly have my heated moments.
And I think that, you know, we shouldn't confuse self-control with being boring and not having guts.
You know, there's sometimes a time To call it like it is.
There's sometimes a time to rally the troops.
There's sometimes a time to get angry.
And I think the real question, I think a better question is, does someone have passion?
And the ancients thought passion was a great virtue.
I think we now kind of see, you know, it's like...
Why are you mad, bro?
We now see passion as a liability.
The ancients did not see passion as a liability.
Passion is about connecting to the real.
It's about connecting to what it means to be a human being.
And I certainly have passion.
And I'm not going to apologize for that.
A year or two ago, I interviewed Christopher Cantwell.
And they've been coming down on him hard.
And I hear that he was...
Arrested just recently on federal charges, supposedly threatening or whatever, somebody out of state.
Any thoughts on Christopher Cantwell just in general, briefly?
Yeah, I'll be brief.
I mean, Cantwell was an interesting figure.
Excuse me.
I met him a...
A couple of times.
I was certainly never friends with him.
But he came from the libertarian.
He came from the kind of right-wing Ron Paul libertarianism into the alt-right.
And I thought that was a productive phenomena.
But he was a bit of a strange guy.
He certainly is passionate about things.
Not exactly the kind of guy I would want to be colleagues with, but something did happen in Charlottesville.
I mean, in 2017, I saw him a bit when I was at the Unite the Right rally, and yeah, I mean, he was on a level of adrenaline that was a bit much.
And then afterward, he's done a lot of...
Dirty tricks.
I think he's felt betrayed and rejected by the movement.
And I feel that way too, to a degree.
But he's kind of responded with nastiness.
But I did see that thing.
It seemed like he sent out a nasty message in order to get information.
So I'm not sure.
I would really classify that as a threat.
It seems like a, you know, threatening rape.
That's a very serious charge where it's like, I am going to do this to you right now.
Just saying something on the Internet, I think might just be a bunch of hot air.
But nevertheless, he was trying to extract information, which sounds pretty sketchy.
So I just I'm not sure there's any.
I'm not I'm not sure there's any good side on this issue, to be honest.
He's it's.
The guy's a bit of a tragedy, but then from the very beginning, he had a lot of problems, including some self-admitted kind of use of drugs and things like that.
So I at some level kind of feel for him as a human, but yeah, there it is.
It's a tough case.
I hear that you're not necessarily with the Groyper War, the America First movement.
Which I take to me, like, I take their movement to be about Christian morality, confront the rhinos or neocons, whatever you want to call them, stop the immigration, no Israel wars.
In two sentences or less, what's your critique of the America First slash Gripers?
Is it personal?
Is it the Catholic Christian thing?
Are they immature?
Is it Wexit?
Do we need to get out of the Republican Party or what is it?
I think they are immature, but I think the major problem with them was, you could say, strategic or ideological.
They were wearing Trump hats and claiming to speak on behalf of Donald Trump and what they're doing.
Vote for Donald Trump.
The fact is, Donald Trump has pursued the Paul Ryan, Charlie Kirk agenda.
And so I think the whole thing, I think it was good to a degree, but I think the whole thing was fundamentally delusional and is just about, I don't know, being a Catholic racist Republican.
And I'm not interested in that.
Even though, okay, let me get right to this.
This is a question that I got from a guy.
You told Roland Martin, the black dude, that you don't want whites to rule over other races.
But on Mark Collette, you said you do want whites to rule.
On the Killstream, shout out to the Ralph Retort the other day, you said that we should, and I don't know if you mean just whites, we should be telling people what to do.
Maybe you meant America.
If we don't run the world, someone else will.
So is that a change from the Roland Martin interview to...
There might be a little bit of a change in my thinking.
I do think that the world...
Is a better place if we were hegemonic?
We, in a way, live now in a white-led world, but it's the worst whites, and we're taking all cultures down with us.
And again, I've heard things, it's like illegal immigrants have all this power, and blacks have all this power.
Look, guys, it's ultimately liberal white people who are doing this.
And, you know, they are the ones with the actual power.
Now, whether that will last, we'll see.
But I would stand behind my statement, which is effectively a kind of Machiavellian point of if we don't do it, someone else will.
There are other people who want to rule the world.
The Chinese have a vision.
At this point, they're actually economically integrated into the American world.
But they certainly have a vision of what a world led by them would look like, and I don't want that.
I think it might be preferable to other things, and I don't have any animosity towards the Chinese, but I do not want to live in that.
Certainly, Islam has a view of what it would be like if they ran the world.
Edward Dutton's book aside, that is something that I absolutely do not want to experience.
So I don't think we should retreat into this petty nationalism of, you know, oh, I just want my little country here.
And, you know, everything would be fine if we just stayed in our own yards.
That's never going to happen.
And those little nationalist countries that people get excited about, like Hungary or Poland, are ultimately integrated into a NATO-led military empire.
And they aren't truly independent and sovereign in the way that those terms should be defined.
So the issue is, someone will predominate.
Someone will project power geopolitically.
Who's it going to be?
All these little nation states aren't going to do it.
They don't have militaries, not to mention nuclear weapons, and they don't have a...
A unifying vision for the world, like Islam, like Americanism, to kind of give the devil his due.
Americanism is fading.
It's losing legitimacy.
But the American-led order did have something to it.
After the Second World War, it had a tremendous amount of, you could say, social capital or soft power, where being like America was viewed as a great thing.
It was something that people wanted to be a part of.
They wanted to be under the boot of Uncle Sam, you could say.
It's now losing that legitimacy due to terrible foreign policy decisions due to Zionism, etc.
But it was something.
It was a...
And I do think that we're going to need that.
We're never going to actually move away from globalism.
You know, it's the...
People were talking about a united Europe or one planet in the age of trains and the telegraph and the telephone.
Now we're in the age of the internet and more.
There's always going to be a kind of global consciousness where we are thinking about what's happening elsewhere around the world and so on.
And so there are going to be these...
And there are going to be these big military blocks that project power on a geopolitical scale.
We have to recognize that reality and not just retreat into the kind of comfort food of nationalism.
I gotcha.
So, I'm out of time, but I have one last question.
Do you want Trump to win or lose in 2020?
I don't want him to win.
Wow.
Because I don't want any more lies.
I don't want to be lied to.
I would actually...
Well, I would almost prefer...
First off, I have some respect for Bernie Sanders.
I think he's authentic.
But I would almost prefer an open communist to a lying conservative who's not going to actually do anything.
Because an open communist would make things clear.
It would set the battle lines.
With Trump, it's all about delusion and thinking that we're winning when we're clearly losing and so on.
I don't want him to win again.
I've seen enough.
And I don't think he will win as well.
I think he will lose.
Although, we'll see what happens.
Bernie versus Bloomberg versus Trump might be fascinating.
And I think Bloomberg might even take...
More from the Democrats than he would take from the Republicans.
So I could see Trump winning.
There is a path to victory.
But I ultimately don't want him to win.
Wow.
Well, I appreciate you talking with me.
I loved talking with you.
And I wish you well, Richard.
Take care.
Richard Spencer.
Likewise.
I wish you well.
Alright.
All right, guys, make sure you tune in to Church with Jesse Lee Peterson, rebuildingtheman.com slash church Sunday, every Sunday, 11 a.m.
U.S. Pacific Standard Time.
Well, during our standard time, when it's daylight time, it's Pacific Daylight Time.
Rebuildingtheman.com slash church.
And that was Richard Spencer, at Richard B. Spencer on Twitter.
He's still on Twitter.
But all right, guys, is there the fallen state today?
Look out for a new Fallen State this week.
This today, noon.
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