RadixJournal - Richard Spencer - A Podcast From a Budapest Jail

Oct. 9, 2014 - RadixJournal - Richard Spencer

01:19:39

A Podcast From a Budapest Jail

Jack Donovan joins Richard to discuss what it’s like to be arrested for thought crimes, be declared a national-security threat, and spend a weekend in a Hungarian prison. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit radixjournal.substack.com/subscribe

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	Well, Jack, the guards aren't looking.
	I've just made a papier-mâché mask of my head, and I put it on the pillow.
	And I think we've got about an hour to do a podcast before I'm taken back to my cell.
	So let's make this quick.
	Okay.
	Okay, so I have a question for you to start off.
	I've always wanted to know, a friend of mine, I rode with a gang member in a truck a few years ago, and he told me that once you've tasted toilet wine, You really develop a taste for it, and that's all you really want.
	Is that true?
	Oh yeah, without question.
	I can't have anything else.
	Once you're out of the house, you really never leave.
	You demand that...
	Your friends and loved ones scream at you and beat you with clubs.
	So your soul is always on the inside.
	Exactly, yeah.
	Your body is just on the outside.
	Right, right, right.
	So it's Pruno at the next gathering of MPI, if the authorities allow it.
	Right, right.
	Of course.
	No, I mean, look, I have the Aryan Brotherhood tattoos to prove it.
	I've been to the big house.
	Perhaps we should stop the charade.
	No, we might have confused some listeners.
	Just in case you didn't know, the Hungarian government insisted that...
	I'd be their guest for a weekend.
	And it was, that is to say, I was in a Hungarian detention center slash prison for a weekend because of essentially of thought crime, of attempting to host a conference in Budapest.
	And we're going to talk about it on the podcast.
	But I would say, you know...
	I don't want to diminish the legend that is growing about this issue, but prison was not the worst thing in the world.
	It was nothing like something you might see on cable news after 11 p.m.
	It was nothing like an American prison.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Hungary is a civilized country.
	I was thinking about all these things.
	If you ever get sent in prison, the first thing you should do is just go kill someone.
	Because then the rest of the prisoners know, oh, better not fuck with that guy.
	Right.
	You had to cut someone's head off.
	Right, with a shiv or whatever.
	I grabbed a tray and just slammed it.
	No, it was not that scary.
	Basically, where I was was kind of like a halfway house.
	It was for people who were well-behaved and non-violent and who were getting ready to be deported.
	When I was first sent down that hall, I did have a little bit of fear.
	I was thinking like, you know, just, you know, look straight ahead, be tough and things like that.
	But it was basically just a bunch of Vietnamese guys in pajamas.
	So, no, I mean, again, it was an interesting experience.
	And, you know, it was prison, you know, after all.
	You don't have freedom.
	You know, I was not allowed to take a book in with me.
	I was certainly not allowed to take a computer or anything like that.
	I mean, your freedom is taken away.
	Really terrible food.
	Wait, did you have Facebook?
	Did you at least have Facebook?
	Well, there was an email terminal, so I could have just gone and looked at Facebook.
	But no, they deprive you of social networking, yes.
	Is it Africa?
	What's going on?
	Actually, I think a lot of modern Americans, God, if you took their Facebook away, you don't even have to put them in a prison.
	They might just, they would just go mad.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I might.
	I don't know.
	But, no, I mean, and the other thing, I would say this, you really, you know, when you have your freedom taken away like that, You know, even in a fairly civilized manner like mine was taken away.
	You do really appreciate your friends.
	I mean, there was someone whose name I won't mention just because he wants to have a life outside of our movement.
	He came and visited me and brought me some important items that I actually needed to get out.
	And you do realize, when you rely on someone else and they actually come through, you really appreciate it.
	It's hard to articulate what it's like.
	It really is like being caught in quicksand and someone actually throws you a rope or gives you water in a desert.
	It feels very good.
	You feel like you really do have a friend.
	And, you know, and the fact that, I know, I don't want to get all sappy here, but, you know, the fact that, for instance, I was actually arrested on a Friday night, and I was essentially just kept up all night in various Hungarian bureaucratic institutions, and then I never even got to, I was finally put into the detention center around maybe 6 p.m. the next day or so, so I had not really slept.
	For quite some time.
	I probably had nodded off at some point, but, you know, it was pretty bad.
	And just the fact that Jared Taylor and some other people, the fact that they just stepped into my leadership position and they basically decided, and I'm sure they went through a thought process of, like, should we go on?
	Should we do this?
	But they basically decided of, you know, yeah, let's fucking do this, you know.
	We've lost a man, but let's keep pushing forward.
	Again, the fact that they still did the conference, that was also very moving.
	Because when I heard the next day that the conference had taken place and that people had really had a good time, I was, you know, again, you really do feel, you realize that you've got friends out there, and that is a very meaningful feeling.
	And so, anyway.
	No more sappiness for me.
	I'm trying to remember the exact words to the number from that South Park movie about, you know, though we may die, the revolution lives on.
	Anyway, I think, you know, people may have heard about that, but I think maybe we should start a little bit back further.
	Yeah, let's back up.
	Going to the conference, I mean, well, how did you...
	First of all, why Budapest?
	Why Hungary?
	Why did you guys choose to go there?
	Well, we just thought that we would be welcomed with open arms.
	But sadly, we literally were that naive.
	We were just very, very wrong in our estimation of what would happen.
	And I'll just go back a little bit.
	Basically, my colleague and friend, mentor, William Regnery, He has had an idea about something like a European Congress for a number of years.
	And he's wanted to have it.
	He's like, you know, we need to, you know, it's not happening on its own.
	We need to place a forum where a lot of Europeans and Americans can come together.
	We'll use English as a lingua franca, which is, of course, it's very, that is very convenient for an American to say.
	But actually, English really is the lingua franca.
	It's a way for Europeans to communicate with themselves.
	And we want to do that.
	We want to spread ideas.
	We want to really talk about European unity and not just the right wing within a particular country.
	And that it would also be an intellectual group and not based around a political party.
	So this is the basic idea.
	We're thinking, where could we do this where it would actually work, where we would not be apprehended by the government?
	Yeah, I mean, we were a little bit wrong.
	We thought Budapest was great.
	We thought that basically, from what we had heard, the anti-fascist left, or so-called, were not as prevalent, not as violent as they are in other places.
	We thought that amongst the general population, that probably due to the language difference, that there would be a lot of Ignorance or apathy.
	It would not bother liberals.
	They would be like, oh, there's some weird Americans coming over.
	And then also we thought that we would really have some allies.
	Well, John Morgan of Arctos is set up there, isn't he?
	Exactly, yeah.
	They have their offices and they were doing fine, so that seemed reasonable.
	Yeah, that is true.
	I mean, I guess the real difference is that they are a publishing firm and...
	When you have an event, just by its very nature, the fact that it is public, there's a countdown, it takes place on a certain day, so on and so forth, that really gets under people's skin.
	But anyway, Arctos was there, so that was actually one of the ideas of...
	Hey, I've known John Morgan for a while.
	Let's work with these guys.
	And we also thought that the right in Hungary would be interested in working with us.
	And at first they were.
	But as you can see, as I've just laid it out, we were basically wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong on our assessment.
	We were just simply wrong.
	The government overreacted in a, in my opinion, very stupid manner.
	But they really overreacted.
	Believe it or not, this conference was making headlines in Budapest.
	I mean, it's kind of surreal in a way.
	But it became a topic of discussion and a controversy.
	Actually, on...
	On Thursday, I actually, when I was, after I had snuck into the country effectively, well, I shouldn't say that.
	I did everything legally.
	I flew into a Schengen country and entered Hungary by a train.
	But when I was there, I actually gave an interview to the major liberal paper, who actually were very fair, and they supported the notion of free speech, and they disagreed with Orbans.
	You know, claims that we should not be allowed to speak.
	But anyway, it became a major controversy in Budapest, and it was something people were talking about and having opinions on.
	And also, quite frankly, you know, we had made inroads with Jobbik.
	We were emailing with them.
	They seemed very happy about doing it.
	There was talk of them helping us find venues and things like that.
	As it turned out, we did all that.
	But nevertheless, they were very cooperative.
	And then this controversy broke.
	And, you know, lesson learned.
	Really felt like we got thrown under the bus a little bit by those guys.
	That it was kind of like, oh, we didn't know that this was racist or something.
	It was pretty...
	Not very plausible lie on their part.
	But anyway, you know, that was it.
	I should also mention, I think the fact that we invited Alexander Dugan to speak also just created a lot of controversy.
	And I understand that because of the ongoing tragedy in Ukraine.
	But that also seemed to rile people up.
	Anyway, we created a lot more controversy, certainly, than we desired.
	We really did want this to be an intellectual group, a kind of, you know, what would be a little bit of a vacation for people, you know, come visit Budapest, let's talk, let's see how all these different forces within European and American, really worldwide European traditionalism, how we can work together.
	And it was really supposed to be like that, and instead it became...
	It became kind of – we got to live the life of a revolutionary, which I guess is good.
	Well, and then you got to – I mean really, I mean you've demonstrated how under the boot they are.
	Yeah.
	I mean how necessary that kind of movement is and how freedom is waning everywhere for anyone who wants to speak.
	about anything that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	You know, anything that would counter the kind of globalist regime.
	You know, they're all afraid.
	They all want to, you know, be in the EU or whatever.
	Yeah.
	You know, and...
	I think this was an interesting test and I'm very glad we did it.
	I'm very glad we suffered the consequences.
	It was worth it.
	Again, you know, we're not living in the hungry Bellacoon, where, you know, if I had done this, I would have been taken out and shot, and my body would have been floating in the Danube.
	You know, we're not...
	We knew...
	Not yet.
	Yeah, not yet.
	I mean, maybe we'll reach that point.
	But, you know, at least for the foreseeable future, the state is not going to do that.
	To a dissident.
	So, you know, there's a limit to the rest, but we're definitely willing to take it.
	But I think it was a weird thing, if you think about the political aspect of it, because Victor Orban really, if you ask a lot of liberals in Europe and the United States, he basically is a fascist.
	You know, he's a right wing, he's talked about, he's authoritarian, he's, you know...
	Blah, blah, blah.
	At the same time, Hungary has better relations with Russia than many other European countries.
	But then at the same time, they want to be part of the European Union and get advantages of that.
	Actually, shortly before we came, they had just received a massive loan or handout or something of this nature.
	So I think Hungary is kind of playing a lot of games.
	And in different games and kind of mutually contradictory games.
	And I think in a way Victor Urban saw this as, oh, this Russian lunatic and a bunch of crazy American racists.
	They're all coming to Hungary, and now they're going to associate Hungary with Russianism and racism and fascism or whatever.
	So I've just got to nip this in the bud and stop them.
	And by doing that, he, of course, looks like a fascist.
	Well, of course.
	Yeah, the caricature of a fascist, at least.
	So I thought it was rather stupid on his part.
	It would have been better to simply ignore us.
	Or make some vague free speech argument or something.
	But he didn't, and I think he does look very bad.
	It was just kind of a personal test for us.
	We definitely took a risk.
	At many points, I did fear that what's going to happen?
	Are they just going to arrest everyone, or are they going to brutalize someone?
	You know, I didn't want that.
	I knew that that is a risk, but, you know, I kind of thought, look, there are risks in everything.
	I mean, there are risks when you get in a car and drive down the highway.
	And you just have to think, you know, is this a reasonable risk that we're taking?
	You know, and is the potential reward really there?
	And I thought the potential reward of standing up to these people, of saying, this is a legitimate conference.
	This is a conference that Hungarians are more than welcome to come and take part in.
	We had Hungarians register.
	These are important ideas.
	This needs to happen.
	I just felt that it was well worth the effort.
	So I went through with it.
	But anyway, maybe we should do this.
	Let me talk a little bit about Friday night and you can ask some questions.
	Just so our audience can kind of get an idea of what happened.
	Yeah, because not everyone is going to have followed this as it developed.
	Right.
	I'm probably on a meta level already.
	I should bring it down.
	Oh yeah, it's totally meta.
	But yeah, let's...
	I mean, as far as basically, you know, Orban is his name?
	Yeah, Victor Orban.
	Victor Orban.
	I mean, he made the announcement that the conference was banned or whatever.
	And then what did you – what was the thought process?
	What did you guys do?
	Well, it was kind of me.
	The other co-sponsors were away and I had made it clear to them that I just – I said, we're going through with this.
	And when all of these things came out, I went on an emotional rollercoaster from exuberance to depression to outright defiance.
	And the exuberance stage of things occurred actually before we started getting some of these official statements by the government.
	I was exuberant because I thought that we had really had a good model, and the response to the conference was fantastic.
	I mean, we would have had easily 200 people attend this conference.
	And when we first got going with organizing it, I told people, I was like, look, we might have 50 people at this conference.
	This might be a really small get-together.
	It's our first one.
	You know, we're going to talk about what we want to do next and so on and so forth.
	But the response was great.
	I mean, we had a ton of people pre-register.
	A lot of people said they're coming.
	You know, I'll buy a ticket when I'm there.
	So it would have been a really great event.
	And it would have been a real sustainable event.
	You know, we wouldn't be losing all this money.
	We'd be making a little money.
	So we'd say like, okay, we can build some funds for the society's future.
	You know, we can...
	I don't know.
	Publish a book.
	You have more conferences, whatever.
	So I was euphoric about where we were.
	Then when we got the interior...
	Basically, it went on a stage.
	There was some minor ministry, like the Ministry of Trade and something like this.
	They denounced it.
	And they used very strong language.
	They said, this is unacceptable, so on and so forth.
	And I wrote a very polite press release saying...
	This is lost in translation.
	We're not who you think we are.
	Just don't worry about it.
	Then the interior minister banned it.
	Then the goddamn prime minister banned it.
	I was getting a little depressed.
	I was like, why are they doing this?
	So on and so forth.
	That depression...
	Hardened into defiance.
	I just felt like we were morally right.
	This is a fascinating conference.
	We're going to talk about a lot of important ideas and ideals.
	We have foreign guests all descending upon this one place.
	I told people we're going to do it.
	People made plans.
	Once you start...
	Backing down, you never stop backing down.
	Once you start canceling, it never ends.
	If anyone's been in a relationship, they know this.
	I shouldn't say that, but you know what I mean.
	Don't take a defensive position.
	Exactly.
	Also, when someone apologizes when they're in the right...
	But they kind of apologize.
	They never stop apologizing.
	People smoke a lot.
	Well, you can see it every time somebody does it in the media.
	I mean, you see that every time someone says something mean in Playboy magazine, which seems to be where they always do it.
	Then someone reminds them who pays them, and then they have to apologize.
	And they keep apologizing, and they're never forgiven either.
	And that's an important thing to remember is that you can apologize all you want, but they're going to bring that up for the rest of your life.
	So, you know, it's almost no point in even apologizing when you get out of it.
	Well, they smell blood, I think what it is.
	It's like a boxer.
	Like, oh, look, they've got a big cut above their eye.
	Let's start hammering at it.
	Like, it's not about like, look, I'm bleeding.
	Now you forgive me.
	No, it's like, ah, let's start hammering this guy.
	You know, again, look, if you are morally in the wrong or if you make a mistake, then you have to admit it.
	Obviously, that's true.
	But in our case, I was just kind of like, I don't give a fuck.
	We're doing this.
	We are going to work very hard to protect the safety of those people who come.
	But we're doing this.
	And so I was quite defiant.
	And I put together a little video.
	And even though I was polite, I think people could tell that I was certainly challenging the authority of the Prime Minister.
	And I said, no, look.
	We are doing something highly legitimate.
	We're not obeying an illegitimate law.
	Anyway, so that was basically the time.
	I had a very long trip into Budapest.
	And while I was doing that, I was working with some colleagues on the ground.
	We actually had a Hungarian helping us and so on and so forth.
	And just to kind of secure an alternative venue and to make sure that no one knew about it.
	So I think there were three people alive that knew that we had an alternative venue.
	And I would say to people who do similar things like that, that is a good system.
	The fewer people who know about it, the better.
	So anyway, that happened.
	I got a lot of...
	I could just feel the excitement in the air.
	And I think it was because of the fact that we were revolutionaries.
	This is against the law.
	Oh my god.
	It's forbidden.
	It's forbidden.
	And so I was getting all these emails of like, oh, we've got to meet up.
	And so I was like, okay, let's do this.
	Let's all meet up at a pub.
	So I picked one that was fairly conveniently located.
	I sent out an email blast to people who had said that they were coming.
	And I have to say, before my unfortunate arrest, the whole atmosphere in that pub was truly amazing.
	And it was almost entirely men.
	I think there might have been just one woman, I remember, who came.
	And it was generally, you know, we were going out to a pub.
	It was younger guys, with some exceptions, some older guys who were there too.
	But it was basically a bunch of young guys from all over Europe.
	I can remember there were some people from Flemish, Canadians, German, some Brits, some Englishmen, like an Irish person.
	It was really diverse, but it was this weird thing where you could just start talking to someone and...
	You feel like you've known them for a long time.
	Everyone was just on the same page in this way, that we were just old friends immediately.
	We were using the same language, using the same terminology, we had the same concerns.
	It was just a very lively atmosphere.
	And fantastic.
	That was worth it.
	I would never want to be anywhere else.
	And then the police came.
	And so I was actually speaking with a journalist, and then he looked up, and he was like, oh my gosh.
	And I looked behind me, and there were about three policemen.
	And I would say that, you know, there's that, what is it, fight or flight mechanism.
	My first instinct was, let's just all get out of here.
	So I was kind of telling some people, like, okay, let's just, guys, let's all go, let's scatter.
	Like, just everyone walking.
	You know, that was my first instinct.
	But actually, they were not allowing us to leave the pub.
	And when I looked outside, I don't even know how many police officers there are.
	At least a dozen.
	And then there were these non-uniformed police officers kind of directing them.
	And so anyway, we could not leave.
	They were asking for passports and IDs.
	And I actually had left my passport at my hotel.
	But I did have an ID on me.
	And my first strategy, as it were, was to play dumb.
	And so I hoped that basically these people would go away.
	So I was telling him, I was like, oh, I'm just a tourist.
	I don't know what's going on.
	I don't know nothing about no racists.
	Racists?
	Well, good lord.
	You should arrest those people.
	Yeah.
	But they weren't really buying that.
	And it was interesting.
	I should mention this.
	The police officers, as I would learn later, the police officers had no idea what was actually going on.
	They were basically told someone was directing them to go and apprehend people and get their name and so on and so forth.
	But they actually didn't know what was going on.
	But the ununiformed directors, who I guess were their, you know, I don't know, lieutenants or whatever the title is in Hungary.
	It was just the CIA.
	Right.
	Everyone was speaking English.
	It was very strange.
	It's this big, large woman, blonde woman named Heidi who had a megaphone who was screaming orders in English.
	I was like, what is going on here?
	No.
	But so I basically, this went on for a long time.
	I don't even know because I basically just lost track of time.
	It was a very intense situation.
	And after a while, I went up to one of the ununiformed officers and I said, look, let me just level with you.
	And he actually, he understood English on a fairly decent level.
	So I spoke very simply to him and I said, look, I am the one you're looking for.
	Can I turn myself in and you let everyone go?
	And he was like, I think he understood me.
	And he was like, no, no, no.
	I don't make deals.
	But, you know, turn yourself in.
	And so I basically thought, like, this is the best strategy.
	I, you know, I'm the one they're after.
	It would be much, you know, there's a chance that they would just take me in and let everyone else go.
	Because the idea that I would get...
	25 people arrested in a foreign country was, you know, it was weighing on me.
	And so I was thinking, like, look.
	And I did it, and it actually worked.
	With one exception, someone else who also suffered a little bit.
	But he was a very tough guy.
	He was a very good sport about it.
	Tougher than me, in a way.
	But anyway, once I turned myself in, everyone was let go.
	So all of the people who were there were able to go to the conference the next day.
	And thus began this saga.
	I was basically driven around with these cops.
	I was always surrounded by a detail of these policemen.
	Just some funny anecdotes.
	I remember...
	When it first started happening, I told – and it was clear that I was – I was never arrested until a lot long later, but I was basically captured.
	I don't know the right legal term for it.
	I was apprehended, never told why I was apprehended and never told what a charge might be or anything like that.
	But I was effectively captured.
	So you didn't scream, am I being detained?
	No.
	Do you have a warrant?
	I'm not good at being an annoying victim asshole.
	Well, and also, who knows what the fucking law is in that country anyway.
	Read me my Miranda rights!
	Exactly.
	You in Hungary, no.
	You have no rights.
	Yeah, but I remember telling one of them, I was like, look.
	He actually spoke English really well.
	And again, you can...
	You can speak in a really dumbed-down kind of English and communicate with people.
	And I told one of them, I was like, look, I'm not going to fight you, okay?
	And basically what I was doing, I hope I don't sound like a wimp, I was basically kind of telling them, look, you guys don't need to beat me up or club me.
	I'm not going to fight you.
	It's okay.
	But I actually didn't need to do that because, as I was saying, the police officers were just, you know, they were kind of like a bunch of 20-year-olds just doing a job.
	Like, I don't think they had the passion to go beat up dissidents.
	It just, they would rather, like, you know, they would just rather the whole night be over with and they could...
	You know, go back and drink beer with their girlfriend or whatever.
	They just were not, they were not very passionate about their job.
	And I'm sure they were a little bit confused of, you know, why are we arresting this man who doesn't seem to be much of a threat?
	A bunch of them didn't even know who they were, you know.
	They didn't.
	They didn't even know what they were doing.
	They didn't.
	No, I thought that, it was funny because I was, there was another person who was with me for a little bit.
	He was actually subsequently released.
	But he was kind of playing this, he was playing the card of like, look, you know, in 1956, if we were alive, we would have crossed the ocean to help you.
	Like, Hungary stands for freedom.
	He was in a way, I think, trying to appeal to, you know, intellectually appeal to them, saying like, why are you doing this?
	You know, you're acting like a...
	Like a caricature of a communist.
	You're arresting a dissident.
	But as it turned out, I think all of those words were wasted because the cops, the young cops, just had no earthly idea what was going on.
	And I learned this later.
	It was actually probably around 5 in the morning when I was, again, never not quite arrested and never arrested and not told why.
	One of the guys was looking, they had seen my paperwork, and they were looking this up on his smartphone, and he read the interview that I gave at the end with this liberal paper, and he was kind of like, oh, this is whom we're arresting.
	And then they started joking around, obviously in Hungary, and various Roman salutes were given and jokes about gypsies, which I didn't quite get, but basically what I'm saying is the cops, I wish they hadn't arrested me, but they were just a bunch of kids, basically.
	They didn't have any malintent, and they certainly never abused me.
	So anyway, this went on, and it was effectively, I was shuttled between bureaucracies for hours on end.
	I was given a lot of paperwork that I was first refusing to sign because I did not know what it was, but after a while I was like, okay.
	I'll just sign it.
	I was given a lot of paperwork, all of it in Magyar, in Hungarian, which is, of course, it gave it, as I wrote to a certain journalist, it gave it this Kafkaesque quality.
	I was being shuttled between various bureaucracies and given paperwork in a language that was totally incomprehensible.
	And it did feel a little bit like I was in some Kafka story.
	Or a horrible, you know, dystopian movie.
	What you don't realize is that you actually signed a confession.
	You were actually personally responsible for the Holocaust.
	They've been looking for you for a very long time, sir.
	I hope I didn't do that.
	I'll have to call my lawyer friend to get me out of that one.
	But who knows?
	But, you know, it was interesting.
	You know, the cops who were...
	They're kind of kids.
	I don't think they had any malintent.
	I think they were just kind of joking around.
	And it's interesting.
	I won't mention these people because I don't want to jeopardize their employment.
	But a number of people whom I encountered within the penal and bureaucratic and immigration system of Hungary...
	They expressed to me their sympathy.
	And, you know, that doesn't mean that they agree with me or they wanted to go listen to an Alexander Dugan lecture or a Jared Taylor lecture.
	But they did express their sympathy of kind of, you know, effectively, what the fuck?
	You know, why are we arresting you?
	And so that was actually quite heartening.
	So anyway, the night went on and...
	It was just endless, and I was finally sent to this lower-security, outpatient, so to speak, jail.
	And so I finally got to sleep.
	Again, I probably nodded off a few times, but it was a lot of sleep deprivation.
	I don't know if anyone's ever suffered that, but it's not fun to do a good 36 hours or something without sleep.
	But you weren't waterboarded or anything, so we're...
	I can't talk about what was done.
	No, no torture.
	It was sleep deprivation.
	No torture.
	I don't know what they would have gotten out of me.
	I'll talk.
	I'll talk.
	That confession we were talking about earlier.
	Someone has to confess.
	I was behind the Soviet crackdown in 1956 or something.
	Yes.
	Anyway, there was nothing to confess.
	I was finally arrested and cuffed and all that kind of stuff.
	And then...
	They didn't cuff you until they'd been driving around with you for hours and hours?
	Yeah, they didn't cuff me.
	It was just very strange.
	Because remember, cuffing really is an arrest, and I was never arrested.
	I don't know what the laws are.
	I think you can actually capture the police.
	In the United States, the police can capture someone for a period of time.
	I can't imagine it's the 12 hours or however long I was captured.
	Right.
	But, yes, I was finally arrested and then finally, you know, imprisoned.
	And, you know, anyway, it just, you know, the prison, again, not that bad.
	I don't recommend it.
	Can't recommend the food.
	It was kind of funny.
	Just to give a little bit of, you know, kind of almost color.
	Right.
	When I was there the first morning, you know, a lot of...
	A lot of foreign people in this little place.
	I was probably the last one to get into the little kitchen mess hall thing.
	They were all eating cheese and sausage.
	I was like, wow, this looks pretty good.
	I go up and this woman hands me this plastic plate that looks like it has a big pile of cat food on it.
	I was like, oh my god!
	Americans don't get cheese and sausage.
	No, it was rank has its privileges.
	It was seniority.
	So they're like, oh, they've been here longer.
	I was like, Jesus.
	You have to join the gang.
	So anyway, I think it was some kind of pate, like goose liver.
	It was in the shape of a can.
	So it was like this brown, again.
	It looks like cat food.
	It was poor people pate, is what you're telling me.
	Poor people pate.
	The caviar here.
	The crackers were terrible.
	Supermarket caviar.
	I couldn't even order a Bollinger.
	No, that looked like the most horrible food I've ever seen.
	I just found it, at some level, I just found all of this funny.
	And so, you know, they had plenty of bread there.
	I just had some bread.
	They gave us this, you know, tea.
	And, you know, again, I knew that I was going to get out of there.
	You know, they don't want me there.
	They want to get me.
	They want to send Richard Spencer on his way.
	So I knew that that was going to happen.
	So to be honest, at some point you just start laughing about stuff.
	That was another thing.
	It was actually when I was in the immigration office, when I was finally told what was going on.
	And they said there's been a travel ban, so on and so forth.
	They asked me whether I knew people, like, you know, all this kind of stuff.
	And they said that the Prime Minister has declared you a national security threat.
	And at that point, I just started laughing.
	There was nothing else to do.
	It was just, it was so almost like obviously Orwellian.
	You know, it was, I was expecting next, like, you know, one plus one equals three or something.
	It was just so, it was truly ridiculous.
	Anyway.
	So, anyway, what other questions?
	I was, what other questions do you have in a way?
	Like what, have you ever been to prison, Jack?
	Me?
	No, I did a little bit in juvenile hall for like a weekend or a week or something like that when I was a kid.
	So you're a complete wimp is what you're saying basically.
	Yeah, I'm a total pussy obviously.
	If you haven't been to prison, you don't even know what's up.
	I haven't managed to avoid prison thus far.
	But don't never say never.
	Right.
	Up in Portland, it's probably fairly genteel.
	Yeah.
	Or I don't know.
	Maybe not.
	Yeah, it's pretty chill, I think, from what I understand.
	I've actually made some deliveries to prisons and delivered them some nice new exercise equipment back in the day when I was doing that.
	So I've got to hang out with – they seem pretty cool.
	Yeah.
	I mean Oregon is a pretty white state, so it's basically just a bunch of white dudes hanging out.
	I would have fit right in.
	I mean, it's a bunch of white tattooed guys.
	So, I mean, that's not too bad for me.
	I quickly tattooed a swastika on my forehead just so I would fit in.
	I look forward to seeing all the photos of that.
	I'm sure they'll be featured in your next Salon Magazine interview.
	Oh.
	That should be your new look.
	The Charlie Manson 2.0.
	Right, yeah.
	Do something witchy.
	Yeah, just that and just a Patagonia fleece sweater.
	That would just look great.
	Some bizarre combination.
	Richard's really gone off the deep end this time.
	Yeah.
	You know, like, they're looking for a new aesthetic.
	Yeah, like, what's going to follow hipsterism?
	That is a good question.
	You know, prison, we're on a real tangent here, prison starts more styles than you might think, you know?
	Well, yeah, I mean, the pants falling down thing.
	Yeah, pants falling down.
	We probably have, like, Reagan-era drug laws or whatever to thank for that, right?
	Yes.
	You know?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I'm sure many sexual practices have been developed behind bars as well.
	That is likely.
	But anyway, again, the people there, there was some Asians who claimed...
	It was one Vietnamese guy who had been there months.
	He said that he was just a delivery man.
	I know everyone's innocent in prison, but...
	Of course.
	He said he was just a delivery man who was driving a truck across the border, and lo and behold, there was 100 kilos of cocaine or something.
	But he had actually served his time and was about to get out.
	He was a nice guy.
	Again, they didn't put me in a dungeon or anything.
	It was people who were totally non-violent and were expecting to get out.
	It's kind of interesting that there's a lot of Vietnamese guys.
	That's kind of unexpected.
	It is.
	It's definitely not what I would have expected.
	He said he actually lived outside Bratislava or something.
	This is the 2014 Vietnamese.
	You know, Slovakia.
	I mean, what's going on there?
	Yeah, it still to this day blows my mind that there are Chinese Mexicans.
	Chinese Mexicans?
	That's interesting.
	Wow.
	Well, I mean, if you think about it, I mean, it's like you said.
	Obviously, you go to Budapest and there's Vietnamese guys.
	I mean, obviously, there are Chinese people in Mexico that are Chinese Mexicans.
	They're running Chinese restaurants in Mexico.
	So the Mexicans coming off our border could be Chinese.
	It's just kind of funny because you never would expect that because you just think of Mexicans as being one group of people.
	Everywhere else is kind of globalized in the way that we are.
	We're going to have to shake it up and put it all back together again.
	It's going to be a lot of work.
	Anyway, it's...
	I don't know.
	It was an interesting weekend.
	I'm very happy that, in a way, the organizers paid the price.
	Actually, William Regnery, too, was expelled.
	He actually was put into somewhat of a nicer place than I was, but just for a night.
	He was flying in.
	Effectively, the police had gotten a hold of his name, I would assume, through...
	I guess I didn't mention this.
	There's so much to this story, I don't even know where to start.
	But the police basically discovered where the venues were, and they went to the venues and shook them down.
	They made them cancel, and they took information from them.
	So they learned when Bill was going to arrive, and they apprehended him, put him in a kind of cell, and then sent him out the next morning.
	And, you know, again, I don't even know exactly how they discovered where we were at the pub.
	You know, a lot of different possibilities.
	I don't know if they were surveilling us in some way.
	I don't know if they might have registered for the conference and continued to play along, like saying, oh, I'm going to come and so forth.
	There's sadly the possibility that someone might be...
	You know, an enemy kind of within, someone who, you know, was registering for the conference and giving information out to the police.
	There are a lot of different possibilities, but, you know, clearly they really took this seriously, and they wanted to, they did not want us to do this.
	They took it a lot more seriously than I thought they...
	They would.
	I knew that there was the risk of this, but I certainly never thought that they would be this vigilant, almost secret police-like in trying to find us out.
	But again, I'm very happy.
	I was very willing to take this risk.
	I was willing to go to prison.
	I was willing to do this.
	So I'm glad in a way I could take the hit.
	Right.
	I would have truly felt terrible if, you know, many others.
	And, you know, you've got to be doing this.
	You use your own name when you write.
	I deeply respect that.
	I use my own name.
	Unless something I write is bad and then I put someone else's name on it.
	Which is a kind of cowardliness.
	Which is a kind of cowardliness in a way.
	But, you know, once you do this and you decide that you're serious about it, you do have to, you know, there's going to be pain.
	There's going to be consequences.
	There's going to be suffering.
	And, again, that's not for everyone.
	And I'm not trying to say, like, anyone who uses a pseudonym is a wimp or whatever.
	I totally understand what they're doing.
	And I think that, you know, people should...
	Before they jump into something like this, they should think very long and hard about it and understand that there are consequences.
	In a way, this whole episode was illustrative of that in the sense that we're at a point where we might get arrested.
	I think that's a big takeaway from this.
	The Hungarian government really...
	As you mentioned, they really know better than anyone else and were more just or even probably more fascistic than other people in the vulgar way of using that word.
	But they really demonstrated how hypocritical the West has become in terms of free speech, free speech.
	Oh, except for you.
	It's how the Western values that they claim to be defending and trying to spread throughout the world to places like Afghanistan and so forth, how degraded they are internally and how they cannot stand up to criticism.
	In kind of a marketplace of ideas, they're afraid of people.
	Who would say something that people might actually agree with?
	Something that could be seen as sensible.
	I mean obviously we read all these stories all the time about Europe and women getting raped by Muslims and everyone but no one can say anything because of the laws.
	And you have this kind of undercurrent of people who are angry about those kind of issues and they know that they can't speak up.
	And the penalties – in America, they're just social penalties and financial penalties.
	But clearly in Europe, I mean you couldn't not – you really can't call it any kind of free society.
	No.
	And I think that they've exposed themselves as – as you said, kind of the Hungarian government is really just kind of probably sucking up to somebody else.
	So they're kind of exposing themselves as being kind of tools.
	It kind of shows the state.
	It kind of, I think, gives all these issues more weight in saying that they're not just – you get accused of whining.
	You're privileged.
	You're whining about your privilege, like your white privilege.
	OK, except for whenever I talk about being white, I go to jail.
	I mean it kind of gives weight to – it's something that could have been seen as whining before is now like – Could be seen as legitimate, you know, the start of legitimate oppression.
	Yeah, you know, it's funny.
	I think you might have even been on the podcast.
	It was like a New Year's Eve podcast and Romain Bernard...
	We predicted that we would actually see the first steps towards political oppression and not just this kind of social ostracism that we all know about, where you get written up on the SPLC or some other journalist and then people don't want to talk to you and blah, blah, blah.
	And obviously if you're working in a corporation or a law firm, you're going to be fired.
	But yeah, we might be kind of moving towards something else.
	Towards something that's a little bit realer.
	And I think also, like, you know, if we're not pissing off, you know, the Daily Caller or Salon.com or these governments, we're doing it wrong.
	Like, I think, again, I don't think we should be these just sacrificial lambs where, you know, we just, you know, damn the torpedoes, you know, we just walk into the line of fire.
	Things like this.
	I definitely do not recommend that.
	That's stupid.
	I think we should try to, you know, avoid confrontations that we're just simply going to lose.
	But, you know, at the same time, you know, I'm sure at some point Hungary has hosted a geocentrism conference or, you know, or some other thing, a flat earth society.
	Or something that is kind of ridiculous and that most modern people think is, you know, from the past.
	But no one would crack down upon that.
	You know, I think people think that that is merely wrong.
	But, you know, I think we need to do things that people are going to crack down upon.
	Or we're not doing it.
	Because if we ever do stuff that, in a way, people don't, like Salon Magazine, Salon.com, or some government, that they don't care about, I think that's when we're part of the system.
	And we're just some kind of little eccentric part of the system.
	I mean, I remember Paul, I'll let you talk, but I remember Paul Gottfried would always joke about this, that he would go to these conservative conferences.
	And he would meet these people who are like, oh, well, I'm this kind of liturgical Catholic.
	I mean, I'm the most conservative person you could conceivably imagine.
	I quote this pope from the 14th century, and I blah, blah, blah.
	And, you know, again, not that that kind of stuff isn't conservative to a degree, and not that he doesn't sincerely believe in it.
	He might.
	But at some level, he's a kind of eccentric fuddy-duddy.
	You know, he's not really challenging anything.
	I mean, the system can totally absorb him and just treat him as like, oh, just one more eccentric lifestyle choice.
	But, you know, why can they not do that with us?
	You know, why was it that when I was in the immigration office, they were like, you know, do you know Alexander Dugan?
	You know, he pissed them off.
	Why is it that just talking about, European unity and the reality of race, the meaning of race.
	Why is that scaring these people?
	Again, I think we always need to be doing it.
	We always need to be pushing at that point that brings out the fear and angst and hysteria in our enemies and in the system.
	We need to locate that point and just keep pressing.
	Yeah.
	Well, one of the things that when I saw this happen, there have been a lot of discussions and so forth online about the value of intellectuals and so forth.
	You see this from time to time.
	When I reposted this story, I'm like, I've been to the last MPI conference.
	Basically, it's people giving speeches and having coffee.
	I mean, this is what's really going down.
	I mean, obviously, it's really...
	All these conferences, if you go to them, they're really – yes, we're giving speeches but really it's just a chance for these people to get together and talk and network and so forth.
	The speeches are kind of a framework in which that happens.
	The idea that a bunch of bookworms really are going to get together in a room and say some words and drink some coffee and chit-chat for a while, the idea that that has to be cracked down on.
	It really is really profound and it also speaks to how important saying some words and reading some books can be.
	Oh yeah, totally.
	I totally agree.
	Again, I'm not against activism, but I remember I was at a conference and it was one of these word and coffee get-togethers.
	I think you were there, in fact.
	And there was some person who, again, I don't have any problem with, really, but he was like, you know, we're actually doing stuff.
	And, you know, we don't just talk, we do it.
	And it was all this implied criticism that, you know, all of us, we're not really doing something because we're not holding up a sign on the side of the highway or something.
	And I just felt like that was just, you know, again, I'm not against activism, but I felt that that was so wrong.
	You know, words have power.
	And, you know, words, you know, in a kind of, as I'm thinking of Heidegger now because I've just been editing his book, but, you know, words are a way that we access being and the way that we access meaning.
	And that is in a way, that's much, it's so much more powerful than people believe.
	And I agree, yeah, we don't want to do stuff that's just, you know, where we're arguing about how many angels can fit on the head of a pen or that kind of stuff.
	But I think we should never underestimate the power of words.
	I mean, we're all doing the stuff that we're doing.
	Because of words.
	Well, the left has been all about commandeering words for the past several decades at least.
	I mean it's all about what word are we going to use for this minority?
	What word are we going to use for – what does rape mean today?
	I mean so many things.
	The words – changing definitions of things has been huge.
	Oh my gosh.
	I mean that's really – and you talk about like the way you're allowed to talk about like all the codes that they edit things for in the newspapers and so forth.
	Like the change of when there was homosexuality and then that was – that's a taboo word.
	Unless you use it in a certain context, like a historical context, they're supposed to be say gay now.
	Because that's the word that we're going to use.
	That's the euphemism that we're going to use to describe this thing.
	And the same thing happened – I mean it's happening with transgender now.
	Like you used to – this man is going to cut off his penis and he's going to be a man in a dress.
	No, now it's a she.
	By using changing the words, they are actually transforming that person more than the surgery could do.
	Commendeering those words I think is really, really important.
	It can't be underestimated.
	Oh, yeah.
	I totally agree.
	I mean just little things.
	I was thinking about using the term Native American.
	Just calling someone a certain thing changes who they are.
	Yeah, African-American.
	African-American is a change.
	Yeah, all that stuff.
	I mean they've been doing that for years and kind of controlling how we're allowed to talk about that.
	There's so much etiquette.
	Involved is what they're changing.
	That creates new social norms.
	These people giving speeches and drinking coffee are really challenging the norms that they're trying to institutionalize and the way they're educating the public.
	I think that's what's important.
	The other thing is that when you talk about what kind of activism matters and what kind of talk matters, I've kind of realized this in my own writing and dealing with other people.
	It's that the same discussion can happen on multiple levels.
	And there are people who write for this audience.
	And I might write for the audience.
	There's the people who write for other college professors.
	And then there's a few different levels of discourse that can happen.
	And you're reaching different people.
	And so if you – you might be talking to other people who are highly organized, other people who are involved in – who read Evola and are in a certain kind of thought process.
	Whereas like my audience is somewhat different.
	I talk to those guys but I can also talk to a bunch of other guys that wouldn't necessarily be cued into what you're saying.
	But we all can write at different levels and speak at different levels and deal with different levels of the populace.
	And I think that that's important for all these people to remember when they're having their little divisive arguments about what's valuable and what's not valuable and whatever.
	It's like if you're really going to have any kind of society or movement, you need to speak to all of those people.
	And also, I do think, just because I'm an elitist snob, I think that capturing the intellectuals is extremely important.
	And the fact is, the left has put a tremendous amount of value in capturing elites.
	And we should perhaps learn from that.
	I think it's in a way the right that...
	Doesn't want to intellectualize things in a way.
	I remember Alain de Benoit wrote an interesting essay that Roman Bernard translated, and Roman has also talked about this in his own stuff.
	The right is always in crisis.
	It's kind of like, oh my god, there's going to be an amnesty of illegal immigrants!
	Goodness gracious!
	We've got to mobilize the population!
	This is kind of how the right's always in this.
	Well, that's the conservative.
	The conservative, yeah.
	Yeah, that's the conservative aspect.
	But when you move to the revolutionary part, which is kind of more where we are now, because there's nothing left to conserve, so the next step is moving on.
	That's when creative energy happens.
	And I think that's where, in a way, the left was for a while.
	I think currently the left is utterly bankrupt.
	I mean, I don't know.
	It's conservative.
	It's conservative.
	It's the status quo.
	Absolutely.
	There's nothing, I don't know.
	What's next?
	I mean, it's just nonsense.
	And also, we've also revealed this degree to which a certain degree of leftism can be totally integrated into global capitalism.
	Oh, yeah.
	You can see this now, that we're all caring about making gays more bourgeois.
	Like, oh, can they get married?
	Can they get a mortgage?
	That's the role.
	That's what really matters.
	Can a man and a man and a man and a dog get a mortgage?
	All apply for a loan together.
	Yeah, all apply for a loan.
	I want to live in a world...
	We're five lesbians who are married to Eskimo can just walk into a mall and just buy whatever they want.
	I mean, that's...
	I've got a dream.
	So the left now, I would certainly agree, is totally bankrupt.
	And I also agree that in this weird way, the left is the right, or the left is the conservatives.
	And George Bush bombing Arab countries so that...
	Women can go to get an undergraduate education.
	We've reached this weird, horrible synthesis of the worst aspects of the left and right combined into a status quo.
	I think currently the left is bankrupt, but the left, it might not have appealed to you and me, but the left was able to capture people's imaginations.
	If you're a true philosopher...
	You're a leftist.
	If you're a true artist, you're a leftist.
	Not just a political policy.
	You want to understand history, the meaning of history, where everything is headed, where it's all going.
	You're a leftist.
	If you got beaten up in high school, you're a leftist.
	Yeah, right.
	That seems like now where it all is.
	It's all people with their spiritual wounds.
	Yeah, right.
	Now that's what it is.
	I think if you got beaten up in high school, you're probably reading GreatExternal.com or Rossi or whatever.
	You got beaten up by a big, mean lesbian.
	It was just who went through a girl spurt early.
	A 200-pound lesbian sat on you in the cafeteria.
	That's our readership, basically.
	75% of all donations come from men beaten up by lesbians.
	We did some research, yeah.
	No, I wouldn't be fully surprised if that was the case.
	It's coming.
	You know, but that's kind of what I'm getting at.
	Like, again, that was not true, and there obviously was an artistic fascination around rightist movements, particularly the revolutionary rightist movements in the, you know, 20s and 30s and things like that of the last century, and before that, certainly in the 19th century.
	But at the same time, I mean...
	You know what I'm getting at.
	There's this cliche for a reason that all the artists are left-wing.
	All the people who are fascinated with history, oh, they're a bunch of leftist academics.
	And in a way, now that the left is bankrupt, we've got to capture it.
	We've got to be that.
	And so I think we need people saying...
	I mean, it would be amazing if one day they're like, oh, all those artists, they're all racist.
	That would be a great achievement.
	Yeah.
	In the sense that we've actually captured people's imagination.
	Well, and that's the only way I can go, really, I think.
	I mean, there's only so much inclusiveness that you can – they can excite people creatively.
	I mean, once you've gotten down to – like we're drilling down to really absurd levels of inclusiveness at this point.
	I mean, it's to the point – it's really speeding up.
	I think people become numb to it.
	And I think that one of the real reasons why the left had all that creative energy is because it had the energy of rebellion.
	Or at least the cachet of rebellion.
	But now it doesn't.
	It really doesn't.
	I mean it tries to keep it.
	They're trying to keep it like they're fighting the man.
	I mean I think I saw someone repost.
	Some article like Obama saying that the Republican Party is the party of billionaires but everybody knows that every party is the party of billionaires.
	That's silliness.
	They're trying to hold on to this lie that the left is for the people and everyone else is in globalist pockets.
	But really I think all political parties outside of the ones that we're really talking about are really in the pocket of – You know, the establishment.
	Yeah.
	Oh, without question.
	Yeah.
	But, no, in a way, I think we're on the way.
	I mean, I just, you know, I think it's clear, like, you know, what other group is being cracked down upon outside of, say, you know...
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, it's that great Voltaire quote, right?
	You know, like, know who runs you by who you're not allowed to speak out against.
	Yeah.
	And think that that's what's happening.
	Yeah.
	No, I think that's absolutely true.
	So anyway, more arrests are in our future.
	I don't know if we want to wrap it up.
	I wonder what is...
	What do you think about this question?
	Because this is something that I'm really seriously considering, and that is, how could we do a conference?
	Because in terms of doing conferences in the United States, and public ones, which I think is important, and I don't have anything against private conferences.
	I think those are great, too.
	We've actually hosted a private conference, but I think we've got to be public.
	We can't just be...
	We've got to say, this is where we stand.
	This is what we believe.
	And we've got to treat ourselves as like, we're not...
	Our views should not be hidden away.
	Our views are for the best people out there.
	So anyway, I don't even know.
	I don't know how to do this in Europe.
	And maybe that's just simply the case of being...
	We're just Americans.
	We're disconnected.
	I know there have been some...
	Arctos has done some Identitarian Ideas conferences, and they've done that in certain ways of having meet-up points.
	There was actually a major Identitarian conference in France I was talking with Roman about, and that was actually successful.
	So I think it can be done.
	Maybe Hungary was just too unstable as to not knowing how to work around it.
	Also, maybe a bigger country would be better.
	Hungary is, I think, a country of 9 or 10 million people.
	Maybe it was smaller.
	In a bigger unit, you can get away with some more things.
	In a way, there's also a larger free speech establishment.
	Maybe France would be an interesting place to do something.
	Despite the fact that there would be a lot of leftist opposition, maybe that would be a way of doing it.
	I simply don't know, but I am going to...
	We're going to figure this out.
	Obviously, we do have a lot of connections with Europeans, so we just need to work with them and figure it out.
	Again, I've gotten a lot of feedback, and with some notable exceptions, it has been just very positive.
	And also feedback from Europeans.
	Maybe the ones that don't like what we're doing haven't talked to me.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, we all live in a little bubble like that.
	Right.
	But at the same time, just the Europeans that were there, Europeans that I've talked to who want to help out, it's just they're very happy that this is happening and very happy that so many people can kind of meet for the first time.
	Maybe that would be a feather in your cap.
	Either way, it upgrades.
	You've got the Prime Minister of Hungary to speak your name in anger.
	That's something.
	Spencer!
	It would take a lot of work for Barack Obama to denounce you.
	That would be interesting.
	To get that high on the radar.
	I mean, he denounces stuff all the time, but that's an accomplishment.
	The same thing.
	I mean, it would be an interesting position if Le Pen was in – gained power and then was forced to denounce you.
	I'm afraid she might.
	Oh, I think so.
	From what I've heard, the Front National is really kind of not – They're not what we wish they were.
	And they're not what liberals say.
	Unfortunately, they're not what their enemies think they are.
	Well, yeah.
	And then at that point, then you expose them as kind of like a tea party.
	Kind of a bought and paid for kind of establishment thing.
	But that's a possibility too.
	If you could draw the attention that you drew in Hungary in France.
	I mean, there's something going on.
	Absolutely.
	That would be quite amazing.
	But, you know, again...
	But, of course, then you also actually want to be able to have the conference.
	Exactly.
	I think if every conference we do gets scuttled and I start being like, oh, yeah, I went to prison again.
	That could be your job.
	It's just going to prison.
	Yeah, I think that would start to get old after a while.
	Absolutely.
	I think, you know, we need to do one that's successful.
	We can't.
	You know, this was fine because we were...
	This is our first try.
	What we were doing was entirely legitimate.
	And so we really generated a lot of goodwill.
	I'm very happy about that.
	But we've got to get it right.
	Maybe do another one in America.
	Maybe do another one in America to see if we can actually hold a conference still.
	And also kind of thumb your nose at Europe to a certain extent.
	Look how – these savages in America still let us have a conference.
	You're too unfree to allow anything – other people to have different ideas.
	Use it kind of to mock them and make it – put them in a weird position to lock you down the next time.
	I think that would be good.
	And, you know, I was thinking about, you know, ways that we could bring, you know, allow Europeans to come to an American conference.
	It's not that, you know, crossing the Atlantic, it's hard.
	I always get very tired.
	As I was tweeting, whenever I get on...
	Do you have to have that terrible plane pate?
	Yeah.
	I always, whenever I'm on the plane, I always, you know, there's just like endless movies.
	And I feel like I never go to see all these horrible Hollywood movies.
	And then I just watch them in a big like eight hour long span of watching like...
	Jack Ryan, Shadow Recruit, and Pacific Rim.
	And I'm like, oh, wow, these really are total shit.
	I am right to hate American culture.
	It's everything I believed in was.
	Actually, Hollywood does produce lousy stuff.
	But anyway, I think it would be good.
	One of my friends was saying this, and I think this would be a neat thing, that if...
	If we could get a lot of Europeans to come to an American conference, we could have them stand up and be like, all right, we're doing this in Europe next year and we have 30 Europeans who have come to America.
	We need at least that many to go to Europe and just kind of get that bonding going where we really feel like we're part of this same movement.
	And I think that would be a really great accomplishment.
	Now, this is silly, but what about Canada?
	I mean, just in the sense of like...
	I think Canada would crack down on us.
	Yeah?
	Yeah?
	Okay.
	They're actually...
	Canada is weirdly bad.
	Yeah.
	I mean, they've cracked down on Ann Coulter, for God's sake.
	Well, that's true.
	Yeah.
	And what is it?
	Mark Stein?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Mark Stein.
	Yeah.
	He was like...
	Yeah.
	He had some legal problems.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, it's interesting, too, that it's so close, it's so far away.
	Yeah, I mean, yeah, for anyone who...
	I used to live in Canada, and yeah, it's basically America.
	Canadians are always like, oh, we're so different from our friends.
	You know, it's not.
	They're exactly the same.
	I mean, with some exceptions.
	We're about something totally different.
	But, you know, with some exceptions.
	I think Montreal, for one, really feels like a European city.
	It's a cool place.
	And there's some other exceptions.
	But it is pretty much like America.
	But I think in terms of some of their willingness to crack down, I think it's not.
	I think they're willing to do something.
	I mean, you could always do some really funky model, like everyone meet up in...
	Oh, God.
	I don't...
	Some...
	We all go to the Bahamas or something.
	We'll all go to Jamaica and the people there will have no earthly idea of what's going on.
	Why not Haiti?
	We could take tours.
	Jerry Taylor could lead a tour.
	That would be interesting.
	You could always have the model of just going to some Really unusual place.
	And I think the government would probably, they would probably ignore you in that situation.
	You know, they would just be like, ah, these stupid white people.
	No, like, you could go to something like, you know, like a, you know, whatever, spring break town.
	That would be, yeah, that would be kind of fun, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Maybe Jamaica, just say, I've never managed to go to Jamaica.
	I've read too many Ian Fleming novels.
	Yeah, it just sucks.
	But anyway.
	Well, why don't we just put a bookmark in this one.
	Do you have any other questions?
	Let's put a bookmark in this one.
	We've talked a lot about this.
	I'm sure we'll talk more about this.
	Just to sum up, it was a very interesting time.
	I have no regrets.
	I'm, in a way, glad this happened.
	It was, I think, you know, a lot of this is symbolic, but I think this is something people are going to, we're going to be thinking about this for a while, and I think it was just a good, it was just a good symbol of our resolve that we're, you know, we're willing to go all the way.
	We're willing to face consequences.
	We're willing to stand tall.
	And, of course, I had something to do with that, but it was really everyone.
	I think everyone who attended that Budapest conference, they were taking somewhat of a risk.
	They were disobeying an illegitimate law.
	And I'm just very proud of them that they would do that.
	And so I'm just a very interesting weekend, tough, but I'm just really proud of what we did.
	Yeah, it shows, you know, it really demonstrated that, you know, the right, or whatever we want to call it, is where the revolution is now.
	Yeah.
	You're the side that's fighting the man, clearly.
	So, yeah.
	Well, anyway, I see the warden is coming over.
	They've picked up my papier-mâché head, and they're not buying it, so I've got to get back to my room.
	There'll be penalties.
	You'll have to go into solitary.
	Right.
	No pate.

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