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March 24, 2013 - Radio Free Nortwest - H.A. Covington
57:19
20130324_rfns
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Oh, then tell me, Sean O 'Farrell, tell me why you hurry so.
Hush your vocal, hush and listen, and his cheeks were all aglow.
I bear orders from the captain, get you ready quick and soon, for the pikes must be together by the rising of the moon.
By the rising of the moon, by the rising of the moon.
For the pikes must be together by the rising of the moon.
Oh, then tell me, Sean O 'Farrell, where the gathering is to be?
In the old spot by the river, right the north to you and me.
One more roar for signal, token whistle, up the marching tune.
For your bike upon your shoulder, by the rising of the moon.
By the rising of the moon.
by the rising of the moon
With your bike upon your shoulder By the rising of the moon Out from many a mud wall cabin eyes Were watching through the night Many a manly chest was throbbing For the blessed warning light Walkers passed along the valleys Like the man she's lonely crew And a thousand blades were flashing At the rising of the moon At the rising of the moon At the rising of the moon And a thousand
blades were flashing At the rising of the moon Okay, this is Harold Covington, Radio Free Northwest, and tonight we have with us Mr. Charles Kraft, who is a very well-known Seattle artist, but Mr. Kraft dropped himself in it a little bit.
It seems Mr. Kraft no longer believes in the Holocaust, and he made the mistake of saying so in public.
Anyway, before we get into that, Charles, a lot of our listeners, of course, aren't going to really know who you are because they don't really deal too much with the artistic world.
Can you talk a little bit about yourself and your art, what you do?
I believe it's mostly ceramics and so forth.
Well, I've been an artist since the age of about 18 when I left home and ran away to San Francisco to become a beatnik.
And the idea then was to be a poet.
I hung out in North Beach and Berkeley and read a lot of poetry and tried to write it and discovered that I could do better financially as an artist than a poet.
So, I sort of switched over and began exhibiting drawings that I was making in a San Francisco gallery down by Fisherman's Wharf and got lured into the world of the visual arts by the ease with which I was able to sell these drawings.
I've remained a visual artist since that would have been the summer of 1967.
Up until today, I switched mediums in about 1992 from painting to ceramics.
This switch was the result of a correspondence I was carrying on with the king of custom car pinstripers, whose name was Von Dutch, and his real name was Kenneth Howard.
I'd seen him on the family's TV pinstriping character actor Kenan Wynn's motorcycle one afternoon in his shop in Calbasis, California, and was pretty impressed with Von Dutch's ability to pinstripe a motorcycle, and the other things that were featured on that television program were furniture he had made.
Paintings that he had up around his home and the general creativity of his approach to life, I thought it was inspiring.
After I got older and became a professional artist myself, I tracked Von Dutch down through a Hot Rod magazine editor that I was put in touch with and wrote to him a fan letter to tell him that I'd seen him as a kid pinstriping cars and automobiles and thanked him for...
Putting me on the path to art.
And he wrote me back and thanked me for the fan letter I'd sent him.
And this initiated a correspondence that lasted until he died.
And in the course of the exchange of letters that we were having, I decided that I wanted to do a tile in the Dutch Delft style of blue and white that was a portrait of him as a token of my esteem.
So I had to find somebody in the community that could teach me how to Paint on a ceramic surface, and I ended up sitting in for a winter with a group of elderly female China painters who were hobby crafters that had those skills, and they imparted them to me, and I got enthusiastic about ceramics as a result of the China painting that I did with the ladies over the course of the winter.
I essentially got that tile done for Von Dutch, sent it off to him, didn't really know then how to pack a ceramic object.
It arrived broken.
So when I finally met him in person, he had it hanging in his trailer, but he put it back together with some epoxy.
There was a big crack down it.
That's kind of how I got into ceramics and I've remained pretty much known mostly for my ceramic work and not a lot for the paintings that I did because these haven't been uploaded to the internet.
My virtual art career begins with the ceramics and there's not a lot of visual information about the painting I did for almost 20 years before I moved into ceramics.
You're fairly well known for some of these ceramics I know.
I think they call it disaster wear or something where you have things like hand grenades and pictures of the Fuhrer and stuff like that.
How did you get into that kind of artwork?
Well, the ladies were painting prosaic pictures of landscapes and floral patterns onto plates, and my idea was to update what you see on a picture plate to the 20th century, because in the 20th century, we're living rather gritty lives.
We're surrounded by all kinds of violence, and it's a lot more catastrophic-looking than 18th and 19th century pictures on plates.
They're rather prosaic and heroic, so I wanted to turn the genre upside down.
And that's how I came up with the idea of doing disaster paintings on plates.
And I drifted from natural catastrophes, which would be fires, floods, plane crashes, shipwrecks, earthquakes, into sociopolitical catastrophes.
And I ended up sort of zeroing in on World War II and using some imagery from those picture books, the time-life picture books and AP reports and that kind of thing.
I understand you started showing these in some art shows around the Seattle area, and it caught on, and you more or less picked up a kind of almost international reputation because of this disaster.
How did that come about?
Well, I ended up, after launching this idea and exhibiting it in Seattle, going to Ljubljana, Slovenia on a residency to collaborate with a conceptual art collective in Ljubljana called NSK.
NSK stands for New Slovene Art, and they call themselves Neue Slovenische Kunst in the German because it's a provocation in their country.
They were occupied by the Germans during World War II.
They include a department of philosophy, a rock band, a graphics department, and a theater, as well as a group of painters whom all call themselves Irwin.
I ended up in Sarajevo with them as the tour photographer for the last leg of the band's Was this before or after the war there?
signed the Dayton Peace Accords.
I was in downtown Sarajevo listening to a radio report about the end of the war.
So it was the end of the war.
The day of the end of the war?
We didn't think that the war had really ended, because the Sarajevins told us that this was the 14th ceasefire, so they weren't sure that this was the end, and neither were we.
Okay.
Well, so, anyway, from this Slovenian art commune, you started doing the disaster wear, and then it sort of got picked up by other galleries?
Well, it started out as plates, and after my visit to Sarajevo with the NSK group, I began slipcasting weaponry.
And I launched this porcelain arsenal at the Republic of Slovenia's Ministry of Defense headquarters in 1999.
I was invited by the Slovenian army to bring my ceramic guns into their facility and display them there.
That's how I got an international reputation, because...
The news about an American artist collaborating with an Eastern European army on an art show sort of was picked up by not only European newspapers, but the American art journalists.
Okay, and from that point on, the disasterware concept kind of caught on, and I gather it's been displayed now virtually all over the world, and you've actually made quite a name for it for yourself through this kind of art.
Yeah, it's been not around the whole world because it's basically Europe and the United States.
I haven't had any shows in Asia.
They know about me in Asia, in China especially, but I haven't been invited to exhibit there.
So I have a reputation that's international and they've put me in a little artistic niche called lowbrow or street art.
And that's where...
I'm the token three-dimensional object maker among mostly two-dimensional painters and drawers.
Well, there's no shame in that.
I remember when I was in Europe, sometimes in Dublin and London, you'd see some of the best art around would be drawn on the sidewalk in chalk by these kids who'd be pretty obviously living on the street, and they're living that way.
I've seen some of it pictured on the Internet.
I think my favorite is the Adolf Hitler teapot, but I believe you've also done things like hand grenades, AK-47s, that sort of stuff.
For those of you who haven't seen it, I'm sure you can find pictures of Charles' artwork on the internet.
It's like old sets of dishes that your grandmother might have had, but it's in all kinds of strange and exotic forms like AK-47s, hand grenades, and so forth and so on.
So anyway, I think it's fair to say that up until recently, you were a pretty well-established and well-known artist.
And then the roof fell in.
As I understand it, you actually did an interview on one of the right-wing or racial or one of these podcasts and somehow one of these artsy-fartsy editors in Seattle picked up on it and they ran a story to the effect that you actually were serious about some of this stuff and it all kind of went downhill from there.
Can you describe, just in your own words, how this happened, what happened, so forth and so on?
Well, this is what I think happened.
I was posting on my Facebook page...
Revisionist information that I found on the internet, YouTube videos, and sometimes some articles from revisionists about World War II revisionism and Holocaust revisionism.
As a result of my postings, which I knew were going to be provocative, I attracted a stalker.
And the stalker would come in and comment on my timeline, which is your home Facebook page, and he would leave anti-Semitic rants.
Other people from my collection of Facebook friends, many of whom are in the art community, many of whom are left-leaning persons, would say something and my stalker would come back and be extremely rude and extremely crude.
Rude and crude.
This attracted the attention of somebody who wrote me a letter.
I messaged me on Facebook and said, a female, I believe this person is a community college teacher somewhere outside of Seattle.
I tried to go back and get a name, but apparently that exchange has been deleted.
But in any event, she said that she was surprised from visiting my Facebook page that I hadn't been outed as a bigot and a Holocaust denier by the Seattle art community.
And I wrote her back a kind of cheeky note and said, well, listen, if you think I'm a bigot and you think I deserve to be outed, maybe you are the one that should go ahead and do it.
About, oh, maybe a month later, I got an email from the critic at The Stranger.
Her name is Jen Graves, and she asked me point blank, are you a Holocaust denier?
I've received an anonymous email from somebody that says that you're a Holocaust denier.
Are you?
I wrote her back.
I said, unless you've got some art that you need explained to you that's on display somewhere in Seattle right now, answering this question, this loaded question, is not something I want to do.
Whoever sent you the note doesn't have my best interest in mind, and I prefer to remain silent on that subject, because it's about me, it's not about my art, and none of your business.
In other words, you didn't leap right in and immediately burn the pinch of incense and say, no, no, no, I would never deny the Holocaust.
You refused to accept the official version immediately, so to speak.
Well, I refused to comment about this email that she'd gotten anonymously.
What I did was, to be perfectly honest, I appended a paper that I'd written about a visit to Romania I made in search of some documents there that I was hoping would help.
Let's see, help, I don't know what the word would be.
I went to Romania to get evidence about a Romanian archbishop named Viorel Trifa who had been deported from the United States.
Yeah, I should add, I used to correspond with him back in the 70s, so I'm familiar with Bishop Trifa.
Anyway, I did append this rather scholarly paper that I'd written about my search for a document to...
What would you say to clear his name, you know?
Exculpatory?
Yeah, it was an exculpatory paper that I'd written.
I'm not an expert on the Holocaust, but I've written about the Romanian Holocaust, and this is what I've written.
So that was attached to my...
Refusal to call myself a Holocaust denier.
Right, yeah.
The main problem that the establishment had with Archbishop Priefer, for those of you who are not familiar with that kind of history, he was allegedly associated during the war with the Iron Guard movement in Romania, who was headed by a man named Corneliu Codrianu, who was murdered by the communists.
And so, it's not like he was ever actually a Nazi.
What he was was a Romanian patriot, who his views differed from the views of the victors during World War II.
Trifa was the head of the Christian College Students' Union, and by default he was a legionary because it was during the period of the short-lived Romanian legionary state under Marshal Antonescu.
Antonescu, yes.
So he sort of had to be involved with the legion, and he gave a speech on January 19th, 1941, and...
Part of the evidence that was used against him by the INS, which is Immigration Naturalization Service, was the text of this speech.
They claim it precipitated three days of anarchy in which a number of Jews and legionaries and civilians were killed.
But that's just trumped up stuff, and I had been studying the story of his harassment by the U.S. Immigration Service and by the Jewish organizations in America for a while, and the paper came out of that.
Back to the story of my outing as a Holocaust denier.
After I refused to answer the question for her, about four months later, I was in India.
I got a letter from her, an email saying, I've looked into what you've been saying in forums on the internet, what you've said to podcast hosts on racist websites.
I'm going to go ahead and out you as a white nationalist and a Holocaust denier, and you can either comment...
Answer some questions I have for you or not.
But in any event, this thing is going to press and it's your prerogative to speak up now.
I said, okay, send me the questions and I'll look them over.
If I want to answer them, I'll answer them.
If I don't want to answer them, I'll let you know about it.
So she sent me about six questions.
I answered them all.
Two weeks later, the article comes out.
I'm thinking, well, this will be a local issue.
I mean, it won't look good for me in my community, which is rather small, but eventually it'll just sort of dry up and blow away, and people will understand that this critic has it in for me and is sort of doing a hit piece.
But what happened was that other media picked this story up, and that was a month ago.
Every day since that story came out, there's been a permutation of this.
Original charge that I'm a Holocaust denier and a white nationalist, and it's been picked up by the mainstream media in America, the left-wing media in Europe, and even the right-wing extremist fringe media on the Internet.
In other words, basically, it's a witch hunt.
Well, it's a witch hunt only for the cultural Marxists, I mean.
But really, you have to understand, and I'm sure you do understand by now, that in this society, the Holocaust and liberalism, political correctness, is a secular religion.
And what you've done, basically, is you have shown yourself to be a heretic.
You do not believe what has come down from on high on these subjects.
You dare to differ.
And what we're talking about here is ideas.
You're actually using your mind for something that the system does not approve of, which makes you, just like in the Middle Ages, a witch, a heretic, someone to be burned at the stake.
And we tend to look back on our ancestors with contempt because they allegedly burned witches and heretics and whatnot.
But we do the very same thing today.
And unfortunately, there are heresies today that may not be spoken just like there were in the 14th century.
So, what kind of effect has this outing of you as a heretic had on you, on your career, on your reputation, your friends, and so forth?
Well, the effect has been that some of my old friends have distanced themselves from me.
Some work that I had on display at an exhibition in Paris, France was removed.
I'm apparently on a blacklist that's being circulated around college campuses by a group of events and exhibitions administrators.
So, there's that.
A company that was going to help me make limited edition silkscreen prints of some of my pieces has withdrawn the offer.
And a gallery, a resale gallery in downtown Seattle went on record as saying they would not accept any art that belongs to others who want to resell a craft in their space.
I don't really know how much of this blowback is going to impact my ability to continue making a living.
But there's been some problems, and we'll see if this is a big problem for me in the future, or it becomes kind of a success to scandal.
Could become a success scandal if people with a mind can see what's being done.
I mean, it's pretty obvious that I'm being held up for excoriation by these moralists who are transparently editorializing about my opinions.
And we can have opinions like mine under the First Amendment in this country, legally, but socially, they're taboo.
Yeah, well, as I've said before, what political correctness has done in this society is that while we still have a Constitution, we still have a First Amendment, in theory you're still entitled to freedom of thought, freedom of conscience, I should say, freedom of speech, right to keep in arms, etc.
In point of fact, if you try to exercise these rights in some way that the power structure disapproves of, you will be punished.
And it looks like this is what's happening to you.
Basically, you are being punished because you dare to think differently from the people in power.
And I don't just mean the politicians and the government.
I mean the people in the media, the people in the liberal intelligentsia.
They demand the right to set the parameters of what is acceptable by way of thought and discussion.
You violated those parameters, and now you're being punished for it and retaliated against, which, by the way, is...
It's like the old joke.
The communist says, well, in Russia we have freedom of speech, and the American says, well, yes, in America we have freedom of speech, but we also have freedom after the speech.
And the Russian says, ah, but see, here in this country, we no longer have freedom after the speech.
Do you want to talk about your Holocaust views at all?
I mean, Alexei...
Well, let's go back to the Trefa case, because that's where I began to look more closely at the Holocaust.
And one of the things that upsets me about...
The attention I'm getting, not only from the mainstream media, but from the public that is allowed to comment on these stories about me and various blog sites and websites and newspapers.
The people that, they haven't done their homework.
They're reacting.
They're not reasoning.
So I'm up against this emotionality about the Holocaust that I can't bucket with logic.
I can't bucket with information.
I just have to sort of back off and let these people vent about how awful they think anybody is that doesn't believe in the Holocaust.
They don't dare let you bucket or try to apply reason, because the Holocaust, let's face it, is the moral foundation of the entire left-wing, liberal, politically correct worldview, and it has been for the past 70-some-odd years.
You take away the Holocaust, you take away this ultimate evil committed by wicked white males, and all of a sudden the world looks very different, and their own ideology has basically lost most of its foundation.
Well, you know, the World War II, the Good War, is a model for all the subsequent wars, and they're just using it to perpetrate war upon war, skirmish upon skirmish.
And it's all about the victory of good over evil.
And I believe that there was a lot of Jews and others killed in the Holocaust.
It's not like I don't believe it didn't happen.
Sure there was.
Nobody denies that Jews suffered during World War II.
The thing is, a lot of people suffered in World War II.
That happens in wars.
Well, yes it does, and I just got curious about the information that I was getting about World War II as it applied to Bishop Trefa and his supposed crimes against humanity or whatever they charged him with.
I don't really remember what the official charge was.
He was deported because he apparently didn't put on his immigration application.
He admitted that he did not say that he had been a member of a fascist organization.
He could be excused for that, maybe, because he wasn't a Nazi.
The Iron Guard, Legion of the Archangel Michael, they were Christians.
No, no, they were not Nazis.
They were not National Socialists.
Yeah, they were a thing unto themselves, a very interesting and site-specific group of nationalists who were attempting to defend their culture from the encroachment of the communists who had turned Russia upside down.
By the way, for those listeners who are interested in this subject, if you can get a hold of a copy of a book called For My Legionaries, it's by the Iron Guard's founder, Cornelio Codriano, and that will explain to those who are interested exactly what the Iron Guard in Romania was about.
Or, as you say, their actual title was the Legion of St. Michael.
And so, it's not like these facts are not available to anyone who really wants to know.
But I've noticed, like I was born in 1953, I've noticed ever since then that we were always expected, and we still are to this day, we are expected to continue fighting the Second World War, world without end.
Now, it's been almost 70 years now since the war has ended, and you can't help but wonder just how long we're expected.
I got in touch with Trifus' lawyers, both of whom have written books about the case, and those are extremely informative accounts of how this guy was pilloried for political purposes.
And the thing about him was, and we won't belabor a lot of the details here, He was caught between a rock and a hard place because Romania wanted to maintain its most favored nation trading status with the United States and the Jewish community wanted him deported and so they put pressure on the politicians who in turn put pressure on the Romanian government to come up with some evidence against this man, the security atate chief.
Defected, wrote a book called Red Horizons.
In the book, he admitted he'd worked with the KGB, concocting false evidence against Trifa.
The INS knew that the book had been published, knew that the guy had admitted making the false evidence, but went ahead and deported him anyway.
1983.
He ended up in Portugal.
Israel was after him.
They wanted to bring him there for an Eichmann-like show trial, but he died of a heart attack before he could be extradited from Portugal.
So, it was a political kind of chess game that he was a pawn in.
And it's very complex, and it's very interesting.
And as a result of trying to get a fix on all of the information that comes along with the Trefa case, I, as I said, became more and more curious about the Holocaust as it applied to Romania, and then as it applied to Poland and Germany and the camps and all of that business.
I've done quite a bit of research.
I've taken myself to Romania at my own cost twice to do deep research on this.
I've been to the Kew Gardens National Archives in London, England, doing deep research on it in the archives.
I've read as much as I can about the technology of the purported Holocaust, the gas chambers, etc.
In revisionist literature, I have a library full of that.
Plus, I've read the mainstream court histories of the Holocaust as it's presented in books that you find in the stores and in college libraries and in your home library.
So, when somebody just reacts to this news that I'm a Holocaust denier with a bunch of moral outrage rather than information, I stand back and just go, well, what do you know about it?
You know nothing.
You haven't done any research.
All you know is what you saw in the movies, so shut up.
Well, the three main points of the Holocaust that get people in trouble when they deny them is, number one, if you deny the existence of the gas chambers as they are advertised in places like Auschwitz, and I think they might have a few others over there.
The only so-called gas chamber I've actually heard of is the one in Auschwitz, and if you ever look at the David Cole video, you can see that that is just the flimsiest kind of a blind.
That thing could never have been used to slaughter six million people.
The second thing that you run afoul of political correctness, if you deny it or question it, is the idea that there was a final solution, that the Nazis had this big, huge plan to wipe out all of the Jews of Europe and deliberately murder them all and round them up and so forth and so on.
And the third thing you run into trouble with, and you can get excommunicated and burned at the stake for, is if you question any of the actions that had been taken since the Holocaust.
The Nuremberg trials, the God knows how many billions of dollars of reparations to Israel.
The Holocaust basically has become a racket for extorting huge amounts of money from Germany and from Swiss banks.
And like the Jews themselves have a saying, there's no business like Shoah business.
And it's become a money-making racket for the Jewish people as a whole, and also it's become a kind of an overall whitewash for legitimizing the state of Israel and anything the state of Israel does, and it's for this reason that the entire power structure of the West does not dare allow anyone to undermine the Holocaust, because if you question the Holocaust, you're questioning Israel.
And if you question Israel, that opens up a whole can of worms that the people in power just simply don't want opened up.
Holocaustianity is a new civil religion, I believe.
And these memorials, museums, monuments, and libraries devoted to it in every state of the Union are part and parcel of this religion in which the death of six million Jews trumps Christ's moment on the cross.
There's one man versus six million.
Oh, if you ever want to really get a Jew livid, try to tell him that the Jews weren't the only Holocaust.
Like, there are laws in certain European countries right now against denying, for example, the Armenian Holocaust of 1915, and that makes the Jews really mad, or the so-called homosexual Holocaust at the same time.
The Jews say, no, no, no, the Holocaust is ours, it is specific to us, we are the only people that were ever Holocausted, and therefore we get all the loot.
It's unique because of its industrialness, and if there were no gas chambers, and if Jews weren't singled out from all the inmates in the camps in Poland and Germany and frog-marched into these gas chambers and dispatched, then the Holocaust wouldn't be a unique mass murder.
It would just be another genocide like the Holdomor in the Ukraine, or the Armenian genocide, or what happened to the Tutsis and that other tribe in Rwanda.
So, the uniqueness of the Holocaust hinges on the idea that there was a program of industrial mass murder, and the weapon of mass destruction is the gas chambers.
If these weren't there, if this is some kind of a hoax that's being perpetrated on us, or what I call, I prefer to call it a psyops, then this thing is going to collapse.
And when it collapses, there's going to be some people scratching their heads.
There's going to be more than scratching their heads.
I think this is one of the reasons why the power structure, and by that I mean the entire power structure throughout the West, not just the United States, not just Israel or even Europe, but all of liberal democratic society does not...
Dare allow the Holocaust to be questioned or any independent thought to be applied to the Holocaust because can you imagine what would happen if all of a sudden somehow some genuine smoking gun were to be found that would prove absolutely that the Holocaust was a hoax and that the whole purpose of the Holocaust was to prop up the state of Israel?
Can you imagine the incredible psychological, political, economic, and social damage that that knowledge would do to the world as it exists today?
There will be a mass uprising against Israel, against the Jews, and against the people who have spent the past 70 years jamming this lie down people's throats.
And so the people in power right now, be they Jewish, be they Gentile politicians, be they whoever, they're riding the tiger.
And they don't dare get off because if they do, the tiger will devour them.
And that's, I think, one of the reasons why people like you have to be silenced and totally shut down because the power structure does not dare allow people to do what you're doing.
They don't want us using our minds.
I mean, you and I would go to prison in France or Germany, probably Britain as well, if we were just sitting here having a conversation like this.
And so I've often wondered just why it takes prison bars to support this Holocaust idea if it's the truth.
Why does the truth need prison to back it up?
Gunter Deckard is a German fellow who is sitting in prison right now doing five months simply for translating a book by Carlo Matonio from Italian into German.
He didn't publish it.
He didn't write it.
He just switched languages.
And so he's doing five months in a jail somewhere in Germany with thieves, murderers, and assorted other miscreants.
And it's silly that this particular event in history has to be legislated.
This is what the Holocaust events in total have become for the Eurosphere.
Luckily, in the United States, we've got the First Amendment, but they're working on turning that on its head with hate speech laws, which will probably, if they can get away with it, be inclusive of any speech against the Holocaust story.
In Europe, they're using defamation of the dead and incitement to racial hatred as the two laws that they put into place to jail Holocaust skeptics.
And that's really a better word for people that aren't buying the whole story.
We're skeptical about it.
We don't deny it, and just being skeptical is not a good idea to let anybody know about your skepticism, especially in Europe, but in America.
I want to make a point that my art wasn't about Holocaust denial when I began using Nazi tropes in my ceramic making.
I drifted into it, and what's going on now is people are asking themselves, well, should we go back and look at Mr. Kraft's artwork in the museums it ended up in, or the galleries it's being sold out of, or even private citizens' homes, and censor it?
I mean, let's get rid of it, because now that he's admitted to having skepticism about the Holocaust, this work that he's made means something different than what it did when he first started making it.
It's a dialogue that's being conducted right now, and it's interesting because they're going to decide what my work means.
I don't get to decide what it means.
They'll decide.
Well, I don't know if this will help or hinder, but...
I've known you for a while now, and I can state that by our standards, you're not really all that racialist or anti-Jewish, in fact, compared to some of our band of merry men out here.
You're a really mellow and laid-back guy.
I don't know if that would help.
I mean, look, I'm a raging fanatic, and I admit it, I'm a Nazi, and I can tell people right now, you're not.
Does that help at all?
Yes, Harold, thank you very much.
Yes, it sounds kind of like that Groucho Marx thing.
He was turned down for membership in a country club because he was Jewish.
Anyway, they pressured the club, and finally the club agreed to admit him, and Groucho Marx wrote back, says, Dear sirs, I must decline your offer to give me membership in your club.
I have no wish to be a member of any club whose standards are so low as to include me.
So, I don't know.
There's a private gentleman's club in London, England, called the Groucho Club, and it was started by Ralph Steadman, the guy that did the cover illustrations for Hunter S. Thompson's books, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail.
The reason why they call it the Groucho Club is because of Groucho's comment about he wouldn't be a member of any club that would have him.
There was a time in the late 19th century, I don't know if a meme still exists, they had something called the Coventry Club.
There was no British expression being sent to Coventry for your various sins or whatever.
And basically, the Coventry Club consisted of all the Victorian gentlemen who, for various reasons, had been blackballed from all the other clubs, wastrel, second sons, and a little bit of Czech forgery and debauchery and that sort of stuff.
Remittance men.
Remittance men were actually shipped overseas, usually.
But anyway, their symbol on their stationery, and maybe a little sign over the club, I can't remember where it was, was kind of a notebook with an inkblot on it.
Their symbol was the blotted copybook, and it was like a club for all of the Victorian society gentlemen who couldn't get into any of the other clubs because of their various sins against propriety.
And I think we're going to eventually end up with a kind of an intellectual coventry club throughout the artistic and literary world and whatnot of people like yourself who have been sort of excited.
So, there's a lot of academics and a lot of fashion designers and whatnot that in the past few years have been jumped on because, like I say, they've said something usually about Jews that's verboten.
And so, actually, you're not in such totally bad company.
No, I'm in pretty good company when you think about John Galliano, the house of...
He was a fashion designer, right?
Yeah, but it was Dior, the house of Dior.
He made a crack in a Paris bistro and lost his job.
Well, Mel Gibson, one of the greatest actors and film directors of our time, until he made the mistake of having a snifter full and getting pulled over.
Now, to be fair, Gibson was in trouble before that because he made the Passion of the Christ and also because his father was a Tridentine Catholic who dared to question the Holocaust, too.
So they were gunning for Mel even before he made his little drunken slip to the traffic cop.
But there are others.
In his declining years, Marlon Brando, for example, made some unkind comments about the tribe and so forth and so on.
So I think eventually, one way or another, they're going to have to ease off, at least on these damn laws.
Because every European country that has these laws has eventually been put into the rather embarrassing position of having to lock people up who clearly are not anti-Semites or not Nazis, or they're just trying to exercise their freedom of thought.
And their freedom of inquiry, historical inquiry.
Yeah, sometimes also it gets just brutally vindictive.
Like, for instance, I don't know if you're familiar with Ernst Zundel, the German revisionist, who is a revisionist.
He's a German patriot, and he published all kinds of books when he was living in the United States and Canada that the German government didn't like.
They eventually managed to kidnap him from the United States, lock him up in Canada, send him back to Germany and give him five years in prison for denying the Holocaust.
But his lawyer was a woman named Sylvia Stoltz, I believe.
And she actually tried to defend Zundel in a court of law on the grounds that his claims were at least legitimate as far as intellectual inquiry goes.
And the German government arrested and imprisoned her for defending her client.
She did three years.
About two years ago, she...
Recently, and I'm talking about within the last three months, she went to Switzerland and talked about her experience, and she's been charged again with hate speech in Switzerland just for talking about what happened to her in Germany.
Well, one of our...
Context called me the other night, and we were talking, and he told me something I haven't yet had confirmed on the internet or anywhere else.
Apparently, someone in the German government has now made some kind of comment in public to the effect of, look, this is getting really embarrassing.
They just recently charged some mayor of a middling-sized German city with Holocaust denial, and so at least a few voices are beginning to be raised throughout Europe saying, you know, maybe we better at least back off on the prison sentences here.
A Romanian, 83-year-old Romanian professor in a German university has just been relieved of his position as a result of him challenging the received history of the Holocaust as it applies to Romania.
So I agree with Harold here that thinking people are going to take notice of this eventually, and I'm pretty sure those laws will have to be struck because they're so draconian, they're so just...
Odd, and I don't think that it'll be allowed to continue, I guess.
I don't know what else to say about it other than it's like an Alice in Wonderland world out there.
Yeah.
The one thing that worries me is, as I said, it is a moral and practical necessity for the existing power structure in the world to maintain the Holocaust myth because, like I say, if you take away the Holocaust and then you look at modern-day Israel, you look at the Second World War, it puts all these things in a totally different light.
And again, also you have National Socialism and the Fuhrer Adolf Hitler as the absolute apotheosis of evil.
They're the ultimate Darth Vader except for real, and they are the standards by which all wicked, evil, white maleness is now judged.
You know, the Nazis allegedly slaughtered six million Jews, and they tried to conquer the world, and they used women as breeding stock in the Liebansborn.
By the way, the Liebansborn were actually state-run homes for unwed mothers, but facts have never been allowed to get in the way of the truth about anything to do with the Third Reich.
And so I don't think that the establishment is going to be willing to lose their Holocaust without a fight.
So it's going to be very interesting.
What concerns me is attempts to bring in these kinds of laws in this country.
Like I say, right now, the United States of America is the only place in the world, aside maybe, you know, the third world where they have no law, that you and I could sit here and even have a conversation like this without getting arrested.
They haven't succeeded so far, but looking at the way that they're whittling away the First and Second Amendments right now, I mean, anything could happen.
And, of course, there is a whole apparatus of unofficial retaliation for those who think independently, as you, unfortunately, are finding out.
Yeah.
What else do I want to say about this other than One of the things I like to do, and I'm kind of a wiseacre by birth.
My mom and dad were smart alecks and they had a smart aleck and I'm he.
I like to go into bookstores and ask for the Holocaust denial section.
Go up to a customer service or to a clerk and ask to be directed to either that or the anti-Winston Churchill shelf.
Well, you know, Holocaust revisionism is not the only revisionism that is frowned on.
There have been cases, which I won't get off into this because it's a whole other subject, where various genuinely scholarly and educated academic types have been more or less stomped on for questioning certain things about, say, the American Civil War.
World War I, one of the first revisionist books I ever read was...
Henry Elmer Burns?
Yeah, Legend of Hog Island.
Yeah, and once you understand, basically, that we have been lied to all of our lives about the so-called Holocaust, you start to question anything that the historical and academic and political establishment has told you, and sometimes revisionism actually wins.
For example, you may have seen that recently they discovered the remains of King Richard III in the UK under a car park in Leicester, and they're talking about re-bearing him now in Leicester Cathedral.
Well, they definitely identified him through DNA and through historical evidence that he was the last king of England killed in battle and so forth.
But, you know, Richard had a very bad reputation that the Tudors and Shakespeare gave him.
He was supposed to be a hunchback, supposed to have murdered his nephews in the tower and murdered his wife and blah, blah, blah, blah.
And now, after many years of affidavit, We know now that many of these accusations against Richard's character simply were not true, so...
When it's that far back, maybe you can get away with a little bit of revisionism, but anything to do with the Holocaust, the Jewish people, Israel, and all that money, they're going to fight tooth and nail to keep it.
So I think revisionists of any kind are still going to have a very hard row to hoe in the future.
It's very difficult to get your hands on revisionist literature, and the sources for it are drying up as some of these right-wing, old, anti-communist, Christian book clubs are...
The guys that put them together are getting too old to run them anymore.
Noontide Press.
That's gone.
The Omni-Christian Book Club is a place that you can go for some of this stuff.
And then the Christian Defense League.
That's James Warner, yeah.
He's got some good stuff.
He's in his 80s now.
That's what I'm saying.
These people are on their way out.
And once they die, I don't think you're going to be able to find one-stop shopping sources for revisionist literature anymore.
Now, there is this one good thing that the Internet has done.
A lot of this stuff is available on the internet, not just websites about the Holocaust, but you can download as Kindles or e-books or PDF files.
I mean, this is how I distribute a lot of my own books.
You can order an actual hard copy and print per order, but because I just want the information and the ideas to get out there, if you just ask me, I'll send you a PDF copy that you can print off on your printer or something.
I don't think this knowledge will ever die because we do have the internet now.
And one thing I've learned about the internet is once it's there, it's there forever.
It's preserved for all time.
Do you know anything about the boring Oregon group?
Rings a faint bell.
Christian something.
I know who you're talking about.
They started a bank, and one of the men was put into prison by the IRS.
But that catalog has a lot of revisionist information about World War II.
I like books.
Exactly, yeah.
the generation behind me and the one behind that one, they're not so interested in books, but for anybody that's interested in hard copies and old books especially, these places, you better get on it now before they dry up and blow away.
Yeah.
A lot of people will tell me they'll read my books online, but they also want a hard copy to put on their shelf.
So I don't think we will ever completely lose our use and our love of the actual book.
Like you said, there's just something about an actual book that you just can never compare to reading something on an electronic screen.
There's also something about finding someone who's written a book that you've never heard of before that has just been dumped down the memory hole.
And I get a big...
Kick out of gossip columnists from the late 30s who are writing about the lead-up to World War II and giving you a completely different story about...
What's going on at that time than you get from a mainstream history book, something on the New York Times bestseller list.
I mean, it's incredible if you go back and unearth some of this stuff, what these authors have said.
Oh, yeah.
I like a lot of the stuff from that era before Hitler became the absolute total devil figure of all time.
Did you notice in those books they always call him Herr Hitler?
After 45, there's no more Herr Hitler.
Anything else you want to talk about?
Anything else about what's been done to you?
How would you basically characterize all of the coverage that you've been given so far as about your heresies, etc.?
I know there was the 360 interview.
There was the original thing in The Stranger.
I've seen Salon Magazine, for some reason, really seems to have a case of the ass for you.
They've hit you twice that I've seen.
Huffington Post hit me twice.
Yeah.
Toronto Globe and Mail.
Actually, the Toronto Globe and Mail did a fairly fair report on the controversy around me.
Basically, the gist of all these stories is they're outraged.
How could a guy that's an artist with a reputation, which I want to say they've beefed me up to the point where I'm unrecognizable even to myself.
I was never as famous as I am infamous.
It's like Mark Twain said, you could go over some of the articles with a divining rod and never find yourself.
Yeah.
No, they make me out to be somebody that had a lot of sway in the world of art and culture.
And I was a little fish in a little pond, really, until this thing blew up in my face.
So, if you run across any of this stuff, remember that I'm not as famous as they make me out to be.
Well, maybe, like I said, success to Scandal.
Maybe you will be famous now.
Maybe.
We'll see.
A lot of it, except the white nationalist tag has been applied to me, too, so it's a double-barrel shot.
I'm a Holocaust denier and a white nationalist, and the reason why that was all appended to the other charges is that I made a broadcast about the Holocaust, as a matter of fact, on Carolyn Yeager's White Network, so they plucked some quotes from that show out.
Go on white nationalist podcasts.
I'm now a white nationalist.
I've noticed that they use that a lot against semi-system people that they want to discredit some right-wing individual that they're trying to do down for suspicion that he might be a conservative Republican.
They try to discredit him by saying, well, in 1989, this particular politician addressed a meeting of the Council of Conservative Citizens or something.
We all know the Council of Conservative Citizens are secret Nazis or something.
It's just ridiculous.
It's guilt by association, which, by the way, is another thing that shouldn't happen in America.
We're supposed to have a First Amendment in this country.
Carolyn Yeager or me or anybody else has the right to express our views and to present our viewpoint to the public.
In America, there's supposed to be freedom after the speech.
The implication of the First Amendment of the Constitution is not only that we will have the freedom to speak our minds, but we will have the freedom to speak our minds and to write what we want in the press without...
Retaliation.
All of these things that have been done to you, that were done to me back when I first came out as a National Socialist in Raleigh, all of these things that are done to any white person who dissents are not official government retaliation, which is the reason that the American Civil Liberties Union gives for not protecting us, because we're not being persecuted by the law, we're being persecuted by private citizens, but still, they are grossly unconstitutional.
This is what is not supposed to happen in America.
We are excommunicated from polite society, and it's a social censure that is the most hurtful, I think, because you have friends that suddenly don't want anything to do with you anymore once it's become public that you're a Holocaust denier or a white nationalist.
They don't even know what a white nationalist is.
They just assume it's a hood-wearing Ku Klux Klansman that wants to lynch a black man.
I think a lot of them are also afraid of that guilt by association, that they may still like you, they may still...
Even quietly agree with your views, but they're terrified that they might be publicly associated with you and tarred with your brush.
They are scared that they will be subjected to the same type of social and economic ostracism.
They can see that the system is making an example of you and they are afraid that if they dare to stand up for you, dare to continue to associate with you, then they will be subjected to the same type of unofficial retaliation.
So, in essence, what's being done to you, frankly, is a form of terrorism.
This society practices institutional terrorism and not just by the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security.
I have been receiving emails from strangers who've run across the articles here and there, and they've taken the time to sit down and tell me that they support my right to hold the opinions that I do and that they're cognizant of what's being done to me by the media.
So that's kind of a nice aspect of this business that I can say that I appreciate.
And there are people, not many, but who are awake to what you said, Harold, about this terrorism, you know, that's on a social level.
Gotten any threats yet?
No threats, thank God.
I hope I don't get them.
David Irving came to town a couple of years ago and was talking about World War II history, and these antifas were outside the hotel where he was conducting his seminar, and they succeeded in busting the place up.
We had to be escorted back to our cars in the parking lot by the Seattle Police Department because these balaclaved hooligans wouldn't let us listen to this man talk about history.
It's a possibility that there might be violent retaliation against me.
Thankfully, it hasn't happened.
This is one of the reasons that it's handy for us to have a Second Amendment in this country.
In Europe, a lot of revisionists or anyone who dares to question the Holocaust have been not just socially pilloried and not just arrested and sent to prison.
They've been murderously attacked by these hoods with hammers and butcher knives and that sort of stuff.
Generally speaking, in this country, that doesn't happen.
I mean, in Britain, it's not unknown for the hoods to actually break into someone's house if they're suspected of being a revisionist or a BNP member or whatever, and literally half beat you to death or beat you to death on the floor of your living room with hammers and that sort of stuff.
But then again, the British don't have any Second Amendment.
Generally speaking, they don't dare get too pushy over here.
At least they don't dare to come into our homes because they know that most of us would probably exercise our Second Amendment right to protect our lives and our property from criminals.
I've often thought that's one of the reasons why the Obama regime is trying to come after our guns now.
They don't want normal American citizens to be able to defend themselves because I think they find violent anarchists and left-wingers like the Occupy Wall Street crowd to be useful in keeping the white peasantry in line.
I know they do in Europe.
You know, these little lefties or these college lefty types are kind of like pets for the establishment.
And in Europe, they're actually kind of an auxiliary of the state because they literally terrorize anyone who dissents.
Has that been the case going all the way back to Oswald Mosley and the BUF?
Every time these guys got together, the left would bushwhack them.
And then, as the history of these conflicts and confrontations came down, the burden of starting the melee is always on the fascist side.
Yeah, right.
The victors were always writing the history books, but this was the purpose in Germany for the essay, The Brown Shirts.
The communists and the leftists of the day tried to silence Adolf Hitler, just like they tried to silence everybody from you to Professor Farrison and so forth and so on.
But in those days, the people who were being the subject of this intimidation were made of a little bit sterner stuff, so they put on their brown shirts and they smashed these lefty assholes' fucking faces.
And so I don't want to get off into a long rant myself, but if you're familiar with my own work, you'll know that I hold to the principle that the world has to change, and we have to do what's necessary to change it.
And I believe that what has happened to people like you, who even just dare to disagree with this orthodoxy, this left-wing secular religion, It indicates that there is no more hope in the system, because we have a system that will not protect those who dissent and those who dare to be different.
Liberal democracy demands conformity just like any other religion, and if you dare to differ or disagree, you're going to get burned at the stake, possibly quite literally.
Well, from my perspective and from my studies, the arts and culture in America is Marxist, and they call this cultural Marxism.
It's revolution without weaponry.
It's an intellectual attack on tradition.
Antonio Gramsci was an Italian communist who died in an Italian prison.
He came up with this idea of the slow march through the institutions and the schools.
And the Gramsian slow march is what most artists and culture makers in the West have been on since 1945.
I noticed that after the loss of the election of 2012, Rush Limbaugh finally says...
My God, I know what's happened.
We lost the culture.
We lost the culture 50 years ago.
Why?
What were we doing?
You know, how did this happen?
I just can't imagine how that possibly could have snuck up on us.
And I said, well, yeah, duh, Rush.
But he's right.
Normal people no longer control the culture of this country.
And the entire history of the United States since, well, 1933 or whenever you want to designate, has been one long assault on normal people.
Their religion, their culture, their families, the institution of the family, everything.
Their churches.
Anyway, okay, I suppose we better wind this up before you say something that really gets you in trouble.
Whatever you say, say nothing When you talk about you-know-what Whatever you say, say nothing When you talk about you-know-what Whatever you say,
Say nothing when you talk about you know what But if you know who shall hear you You know what you'll get They'll take you off You know where for you You won't know how long So for you know who's sake Don't let anyone hear you singing this song You all know what I'm speaking of When I mention you know what And I fear it's very dangerous To even mention that
For the other ones are always near Although you may not see And if anyone asks, we'll call you that Please don't mention me And whatever you say, say another one When you talk about you know what Or if you know who should hear it You know what you'll get That'll take you off You know where for you wouldn't know how long So for you know who's sake Don't let anyone hear you singing this song You
all know You know who I'm speaking of when I'm answering.
You know who?
Well, if you know who should hear you, you know what he'd do.
So if you don't see me again, you'll know why I'm away.
And if anyone asks you where I've gone, here's what you must say.
Whatever you say, say nothing when you talk about you-know-what.
Well, if you know who should hear you, you'll know what you'll get.
They'll take you off.
You know where you wouldn't know how.
Well, that's enough about so-and-so, not to mention such-and-such.
Better end my song, I've already said too much.
For the less you say, and the less you hear, and the less you'll go astray.
And the less you think, and the less you do, the more you'll hear them say.
Whatever you say, say nothing, come on, when you talk about you know what.
For if you know who, say, you know what you'll get, they'll take you off.
You know where, but you wouldn't know how long.
So for you know who's sake, don't let anyone hear you singing a song.
And whatever you say, say nothing, when you talk about you know what.
For if you know who should hear you, you know what you'll get, they'll take you off.
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