The mysterious monument known as the Georgia Guidestones — "America's Stonehenge" — was recently destroyed. We cover how it was built in 1980 on a grazing pasture, why it created controversy, and its eventual bombing. Then we broach Bobby Crimo III, the recent mass shooter in the Chicago suburb of Highland Park. To help us understand his digital footprint, we speak to Emmi Conley, an independent researcher of far-right extremist movements, digital propaganda and online subcultures. She discusses "schizoposting", "gore" forums and what happens when white supremacist ideology isn't a straightforward key to understanding a mass shooter's actions.
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Music by Pontus Berghe. Editing by Corey Klotz.
Welcome, listener, to Chapter 195 of the QAnon Anonymous Podcast, the Georgia Guidestones and schizo-posting episode.
As always, we are your hosts, Jake Rokitansky, Julian Fields, and Travis View.
This week, dear listener, we've got a double feature for you.
First, we're going to explore the Georgia Guidestones, a recently destroyed and very mysterious monument known as America's Stonehenge that has obsessed conspiracy theorists since its erection in 1980.
Then we'll be delving into Robert Cremo III, the young man who killed seven people in a mass shooting during a Fourth of July parade in Highland Park, a Chicago suburb.
Cremo's extremely online, esoteric beliefs have caused controversy and disagreement among researchers and specialists attempting to understand why he carried out the massacre.
For that segment, we'll also be speaking to Emmy Conley, an independent researcher of far-right extremist movements, digital propaganda, and online subcultures.
And before we get this show on the road, I just wanted to tell everybody we are doing our first mini tour.
Obviously, more dates and cities will follow, but for now, we are traveling on the 8th, 9th, and 10th of September to Portland, Seattle, and Eugene.
So, go get your tickets at tour.qanonanonymous.com.
We cannot wait to see you out there.
It's going to be so fun.
And like I said, if your city is not on this list of three cities in the Pacific Northwest, or even your country, well, we may still be visiting you.
Don't worry.
These are just basically test dates.
And I don't mean that they're going to be crappy.
We are going to do our very best.
We are going to potentially do a Wicker Man with Jake on stage.
How do you feel about that?
First I'm hearing of this.
Yeah.
So that's going to be great.
And also Liv Agar is going to join us for all three of these Pacific Northwest dates.
So very much looking forward to it.
Go grab your tickets while they're still up.
We definitely have had them selling quickly, even though we've never mentioned them on the podcast yet.
We've just been tweeting about it and stuff like that.
Yeah, go check it out!
And now, on to the show!
In the summer of 1979, the Elberton Granite Finishing Company in the 4,000-person city of Elberton, Georgia, received a mysterious visitor from out of state.
The gray-haired, suit-wearing man used the pseudonym R.C.
Christian and asked if they were interested in building a monument for him.
The local quarries, active since 1889, produced a fine-grained, blue-gray granite he thought would be perfect for the job.
The company's president, Joe Fenley, was intrigued by the request, mostly due to its scope.
It was the first time anybody had asked them to cut such large slabs of stone, let alone finish and assemble them.
Fenley started to doubt the man's sanity.
He would later tell an Atlanta TV reporter, I was thinking, I got a nut in here now.
How am I going to get him out?
The stranger wanted to build a monument that would serve as a compass, calendar, and clock, withstand catastrophic events, and carry a message to future generations in eight languages, presumably in the wake of a nuclear apocalypse.
This was, after all, the height of the Cold War.
This American Stonehenge would be over 19 feet tall, composed of six granite slabs, and weigh nearly 240,000 pounds.
It was by far the most ambitious project the county had ever seen.
Fenley decided to get rid of the stranger by quoting him an exorbitant price for its construction, over $370,000 of today's dollars.
To his surprise, the man accepted without negotiating.
Fenley grew convinced that he was dealing with a crazy person, so he sent him to be vetted by a local banker he trusted, Wyatt Martin of the Granite City Bank.
A reporter for Wired Magazine spoke to Martin decades later, and this is what he told him.
Fenley called me and said, a kook over here wants some kind of crazy monument.
But when this fella showed up, he was wearing a very nice expensive suit, which made me take him a little more seriously.
And he was well-spoken, obviously an educated person.
The man explained to Martin that R.C.
Christian was a pseudonym and that he represented a group of sponsors who had been planning the project for 20 years and wished to remain anonymous indefinitely.
When he told me what it was he and this group wanted to do, I just about fell over.
I told him, I believe you'd be just as well off to take the money and throw it out in the street into the gutters.
He just sort of looked at me and shook his head, like he felt kind of sorry for me, and said, You don't understand.
The stranger made Martin sign a confidentiality agreement and swear on the Bible to never reveal his true identity.
And he wanted him to remain his only intermediary on this project.
Before leaving town to go scout locations, the Stranger dropped by the Granite Company's offices again and gave Joe Fenley a shoebox containing a model of the monument made out of wood, along with 10 pages of instructions.
Both Martin and Fenley doubted they'd hear from the Stranger again, but a week later, they received a wire for 10% of the project's cost, so they set to work.
The Georgia Guidestones would be built on the highest elevation land in the region, part of a grazing pasture the stranger had purchased from some local farmers.
The agreement included the condition that they, and their children, could maintain grazing rights for their cattle.
The monument included multiple interesting features.
A hole drilled through one of its slabs always exhibited the North Star.
A horizontal slot charted the annual travel of the sun, from solstice to equinox.
And the capstone let pass a sunbeam at exactly noontime, which pointed to the day of the year.
Then there was the engraved message, written in English, Spanish, Swahili, Hindi, Hebrew, Arabic, Traditional Chinese, and Russian.
The message was composed of ten recommendations.
Maintain humanity under 500 million in perpetual balance with nature.
Guide reproduction wisely, improving fitness and diversity.
Unite humanity with a living new language.
Rule passion, faith, tradition, and all things with tempered reason.
Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
Balance personal rights with social duties.
Prize truth, beauty, love, seeking harmony with the infinite.
Be not a cancer on the earth.
Leave room for nature.
Leave room for nature.
The ones that aren't specifically about eugenics or Malthusian population reduction seems nice, but yeah, that's very weird.
Definitely strange stuff, and no surprise that this would cause some commotion.
The capstone also featured a statement translated into four ancient languages, Sanskrit, Babylonian cuneiform, classical Greek, and Egyptian.
It read, Let these be guidestones to an age of reason.
So why aren't you on board, Travis?
Well, because one of those explicitly seems to advocate for eugenics, and it's asking to reduce the population to under 500 million.
And the population now is, what, 8 billion-something around there?
So seems like, yeah, I think that genocide and eugenics are the real sticking points for me.
Travis, you must exterminate 67% of the world's population.
I leave the method to you.
Travis is like the guy who's in a horror film in the first 10 minutes.
He's like, oh, that monster's not even real, okay?
It's made out of rubber.
He's like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
500 million, let's see, 7 billion people on the world.
That means we would have to kill off 78% of the world's entire population.
To be fair about that thing, I think this basically assumes that the population has been reduced already to under 500 million by a nuclear disaster.
Ah, I see.
Okay, fair.
But, you know, don't, don't yet get on board.
Okay, well, I'm on board.
On March 22nd, 1980, the Guidestones were unveiled to a crowd of a hundred.
A message from its sponsors was read.
In order to avoid debate, we, the sponsors of the Georgia Guidestones, have a simple message for human beings now and for the future.
We believe our precepts are sound and they must stand on their own merits.
Present at the ceremony were Congressman Doug Barnard and John Dianus, the executive VP of the Monument Builders of America.
Within a year, the cows had made a mess of America's Stonehenge.
Here's from a 1981 news article in the Atlanta Journal.
Mullinax's prized Santa Gertruda's cattle used the giant stones as scratching posts, obscuring the hewn admonitions to love reason, prize truth, and shun politicians.
Come on!
Come on!
With brownish film from their oily hides.
And the curious were forced to pick their way delicately through piles of bovine by-product to read the inscriptions.
A year after the erection of what are known as the Georgia Guidestones, the cattle problem was solved in the same mysterious manner that created the granite monoliths.
A check last February from a cryptic donor known as R.C.
Christian.
Mullinax used the donation to install barbed wire, fencing the half acre on which the guidestones stand off from the rest of his farm.
The cattle weren't the only ones disrespecting the guidestones.
Local religious figures soon whipped themselves up into a frenzy, positing that the monument represented the, quote, Ten Commandments of the Antichrist.
One pastor unsuccessfully demanded to install another monument nearby with the Ten Commandments on it.
The opposition to the monument would persist until today, despite the Georgia Guidestones attracting droves of tourists, some traveling from across the globe to gawk at the structure and read its message.
To give you an idea of how little has changed, here's from that 1981 article.
The gossip and rumor mills have cooled.
Martin said restive preachers who warned of pagan ceremonies have, quote, found something else to preach about.
They defeated a referendum to allow beer sales in Elbert County, and they are fighting the sale of Playboy magazines in convenience stores.
One resurgence of paranoia was stoked by Mark Dice, a right-wing buffoon, YouTuber, and conspiracy theorist.
In 2005, he called for the Guidestones to be quote, smashed into a million pieces.
claiming they had, quote, a deep satanic origin.
He went on to explain that R.C.
Christian was a high-ranking member of a Luciferian secret society who wanted to create the New World Order's Ten Commandments.
In typical QAnon fashion, he saw the monument as, quote, a way for the elite to get a laugh at the expense of the uninformed masses as their agenda stands clear as day and the zombies don't even notice it.
In 2008, the Guidestones were vandalized.
Here's from a 2009 article written by Randall Sullivan.
While Dice denies any involvement in the assault, he seems to have inspired it.
Spray painted on the stones were messages like, Jesus will beat you Satanist, and no one world government.
Other defacements asserted that the Council on Foreign Relations is quote, ran by the devil, that the 9-11 attacks were an inside job, and that President Obama is a Muslim.
The vandals also splashed the guidestones with polyurethane, Which is much more difficult to remove than paint.
Despite the graffiti's alignment with his views, Dice says he disapproves of the acts.
Quote, A lot of people were glad such a thing happened and saw it as standing up against the New World Order.
Dice says, While others who were unhappy with the stones saw the action as counterproductive and inappropriate.
Martin winces every time he hears Dice's, quote, Luciferian secret society take on the Guidestones.
But while he disagrees, he also admits he doesn't know for sure.
Quote, All I can tell you is that Mr. Christian always seemed a very decent and sincere fella to me.
In 2011, the Guidestones were prominently featured in an episode of Decoded, a History Channel show.
It is an undescribably stupid documentary.
The participants literally Google the monument while they're standing right in front of it, count to ten with their fingers, and raise their eyebrows at the cameras installed after the last round of defacements.
Fast forward to 2022, when Georgia gubernatorial longshot candidate Candace Taylor reawakened the satanic panic about the Guidestones.
She was running a Trumpian campaign with the slogan, Jesus.
Guns.
Babies.
Great.
It's just like everything is like boiled down to like the like three words.
It sounds like the alt text of the most cursed JPEG you've ever seen.
She promised voters she'd pass 10 executive orders during her mandate.
Taylor revealed nine of them up front and teased a tenth in a tweet.
I will not cower or back down.
I'm in this race to win it.
Evil cannot be negotiated with and must be crushed.
The progressive left is now coming for your children.
Executive order number 10 is going to shake the nation.
Stay tuned.
After much ado, here's the tweet making the earth-shattering reveal.
I am the only candidate willing to stand up to the satanic cabal.
Time is running out to support my fight.
The Georgia Guidestones must be demolished.
She linked to a campaign video, which I'd like to play for you now.
They told us what they wanted to do.
Some might even say they had to get our permission.
To at least tell us ahead of time.
Even if we didn't believe them.
Over four billion people have been injected with something that took just nine months to create.
Ask yourself why?
Back in biblical times, human sacrifice was a form of demonic worship.
We're still doing it, in present day, by killing our unborn.
It's the same demons, it's the same sacrifice, it's the same sin, it's just a different time.
This is a long shot in and of itself, running for governor against an incumbent.
Why are you doing this?
If we don't call things out, and we don't acknowledge them, and we don't take authority, and take dominion over what God's given us, then we are no better than the evil ones that put it up.
We've watched as people have destroyed our history and monuments, and in their place, they have erected statues to their own gods.
The New World Order is here, and they told us it was coming.
This is a battle far greater than what we see in the natural.
It is a war between good and evil.
Carol Ann, you must go into the light, Carol Ann.
Sorry, I wouldn't, I shouldn't disrespect Zelda Rubenstein like that.
She's nothing like this creature.
You know, I feel like we're going to start seeing more and more candidates promise to do battle with the demonic forces that control evil in our earthly realm.
It rocks, because you can basically just be like, yeah, I defeated them, the invisible demons, totally, last night.
Travis, I really don't like that prediction from you, man.
I would actually, I would like you to take that back, please.
I mean, it's not really a prediction, it's already started.
I mean, how you predict things is that you notice the bad things that are starting to happen, and you assume that the bad things will continue to happen, and more frequently.
So, that's pretty simple.
It's like, Executive Order 9, shutter all abortion clinics in the Georgia area.
Executive Order 10, do battle on the Hellfire Earth with the Archangel Gideon!
And defeat- and I have won!
Jake Torquemada here, asking Travis to recant as he whips him on the wheel.
Candace did not win the primary, but the Guidestones would suffer anyways.
On Wednesday, July 6, 2022, somebody drove up to the monument just past 4 a.m.
and placed an explosive device at the foot of the Georgia Guidestones, then quickly sped away.
The explosion caused the collapse of one of its slabs.
That afternoon, authorities tore down the remaining slabs, quote, for safety reasons.
Forty-two years after being erected, the monument was reduced to rubble and carted off.
Now, I don't want to sound conspiratorial here, but this sounds like an inside job.
You got a late-night demolition, and then, you know, the cops the next day are like, well, that's unsafe now.
I guess we gotta, you know, destroy the rest of them.
Yeah, just replace the one slab.
What are you fucking doing?
Yeah, y'all got paid for this, by the way.
$370,000 by Mr. Christian.
Also, coincidentally, there was video of the demolition, but the people who destroyed it happened to be on the other side of the Guidestones, out of the camera's view.
I mean, the camera is visible, so they would be able to plan that.
Fair enough.
Yeah, the camera looks really funny.
It's just, like, tied to a post, like, with a little box and some wires coming out of it.
I mean, it is in, like, the middle of nowhere, let's remember.
It's off of Georgia Route 77.
Here's what Candace Taylor had to say about the attack.
In an emailed statement, Taylor seemed to express glee at the monument's destruction.
"Since the election, the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of three of my main platform issues and executive orders.
Jesus, guns, baby.
And just like religious persecution, gun control, and abortion, the Georgia Guidestones,
a demonic monument that calls for the depopulation of the earth as well as the extermination of 7.5 billion people,
has no place in the Christian state of Georgia, or in America for that matter."
This looks like another act of God to me.
Today, it is another defeat of the devil.
Never underestimate the power of prayer.
I love to pray for stochastic terrorism in C4.
The Elberton Star, a local paper, published a special edition entitled, The Georgia Guidestones.
Bombed.
Demolished.
Gone forever.
Good album name, by the way.
I gotta keep that in mind.
In it was printed a reaction by Joe Fenley Jr., the son of the man who originally oversaw its construction.
I am so mad.
I am so angry and so hurt.
This was a disgrace to Elbert County that some fool did what they did.
I hope they catch them and prosecute them to the fullest.
I hope they put them under the jail.
Not in the jail.
Under the jail.
I know what Daddy would do.
He'd think the same way I do.
The Guidestones meant a heck of a lot.
We built them.
I was off in college at the time when it first started.
I am so angry about the whole situation.
On a slab near the structure were engraved the unfinished words, placed six feet below this spot on, and to be opened on.
These engravings led some to hope that there might be a silver lining to the monument's destruction, the discovery of a time capsule that would help explain the mysterious Georgia Guidestones.
But no dates were ever engraved on the slab, and after an excavation of the site, no capsule was found.
This, of course, did not stop the internet from spinning up rumors that the capsule was found and contained an issue of Playboy, an 8-track, and Quaaludes.
Which, fucking, talk about forbidden Quaaludes.
The, like, 42-year-old Quaaludes.
Yeah, that's definitely something that you do not want to open until Doomsday.
I'm high on 42-year-old Quaaludes!
This meant a heck of a lot to me!
Those are Satan's Quaaludes.
Perhaps the biggest mystery remaining is the identity of R.C.
Christian.
One theory is that the pseudonym refers to Christian Rosenkreutz, the founder of the
Rosicrucian Order, a religious sect that combines Kabbalah, Hermeticism, alchemy, and Christian
mysticism.
But the theory with the most legs was advanced by a 2015 film entitled Dark Clouds Over Elberton,
the true story of the Georgia Guidestones.
The documentary makers persuaded Wyatt Martin, the banker sworn to protect R.C.
Christian's identity, to speak to them.
He showed them correspondence between him and R.C.
Christian.
In the process, the documentary makers found a postmark and a return address in Fort Dodge, Iowa.
This led them down a trail of evidence, including patent applications and political campaign finance disclosures, to a man named Herbert Hinze Kirsten.
He died in 2005 at the age of 85.
Kirsten is apparently a Low German variant of Christian.
His obituary revealed that he was a physician and a Catholic, despite his support for birth control.
Here's from the obituary.
Dr. Kirsten was active in the Fort Dodge Rotary Club, Fort Dodge Historical Society.
The Head Start Program, the Fort Museum, a fellow in the American College of Surgeons and the Iowa Medical Society.
He was an avid bridge player, a former recreational pilot, and a conservationist who loved nature and trees.
Everyone who knew him respected his love of his tree farm, Walnut Farms located west of Fort Dodge.
Dr. Kirsten had many hobbies, woodworking, oil and water painting, bridge, The Republican Party, physics, livestock and grain farming, and music.
He was a naturalist who was very involved in environmental and world population issues.
Seems like a weird last hobby there.
Unfortunately, it appears Kirsten was not a great guy.
Here's William Sayles Doan, a historian who knew him, speaking to the documentary makers.
He, Kirsten, and he used to circulate this in the country club, which is how I heard about it.
He had decided he would create some kind of measurement that would prove once and for all that only white people were, especially northern Europeans, were the superior race.
And this was well known around Fort Dodge.
So would it be accurate to say that Mr. Kirsten was a white supremacist?
Racist to his fingertips.
Oh, wow.
Awesome line from Doan there.
Great look too.
He thought about it for a second.
It was like a racist to his fingertips.
Amazing.
I got to use that too.
All of our episodes end this way.
It's incredible.
Yeah.
Everything that ends with, like, any kind of monument or, like, cool, you know, sort of mysterious, you know, art installation, it always ends in white supremacy.
Always.
It also appears Kirsten was a big fan of David Duke.
Dr. Kirsten had even written a letter to a Florida newspaper expressing his views in favor of David Duke, a well-known controversial figure and former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.
A letter that I downloaded from the Sun Sentinel Newspaper in Florida.
This columnist is responding to a letter he received on an article he had written.
It says, an Iowa physician, Herbert H. Kirsten of Fort Dodge, reacted to my attack on those who attribute base sentiments to anyone who wants to solve America's problems first.
He lulled me into dropping my guard.
He said I correctly suggested it is not wrong to be patriotic.
Then wham, he threw in the incendiary names of Patrick Buchanan and David Duke, contending that they are among the few public figures who speak for American interest in this new era of internationalism.
Duke, he said as my skin crawled, voices many beliefs held by reasonable Americans.
It is unfortunate that more acceptable public figures are not pushing similar views.
To bolster the evidence that Kirsten was a racist eugenicist, the documentary also delves into his relationship with William Shockley, a Nobel Prize winning physicist who, despite having no experience in the field of genetics, was a notorious race theorist in his later years.
I knew that Dr. Kirsten and Shockley were friends.
And how did you know that?
Because Kirsten told us.
He was very proud of, he was a Nobel Prize winner.
In your presence or?
Yes. I mean he did not make it a secret, he was proud of it.
We can only wonder at how influential William Shockley may have been
in the life of Herbert Kirsten.
Shockley's thinking seems to be represented in the words, "Guide reproduction wisely,"
which implies hindering the birth rate of some in favor of others, which was exactly his idea.
In his book, when speaking about how to reduce the world population, R.C.
Christian wrote that, Common sense would suggest that we make the reduction in a selective fashion.
Worldwide human conception is still governed with little conscious guidance.
Many talented and productive individuals are constrained to limit their reproduction, while at the same time we provide subsidies that encourage childbearing by the indigent, the lazy, the irresponsible, and the inadequate.
So very much compatible with some of the stuff you've explored on Trickle Down, Travis.
Yes.
Yeah.
So very much just an out-and-out white supremacist eugenicist.
So, yeah.
So, I mean, you know, I always wanted to, like, you know, visit the Georgia Guidestones one of these days, but I can't say I miss their absence now.
Yeah, at first I was like, oh, fuck, you know, there's very little kind of, I don't know, modern folk monuments in the United States or whatever.
It's sad they blew it up.
And then I found out a little bit more about Kirsten, which I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that he is R.C.
Christian.
And yeah, no, it's very funny actually because the conspiracy theorists who opposed it were basically on his side.
I mean, other than the fact that he's a Catholic, you know, they basically agreed about patriotism, you know, white supremacy, all of this shit.
So the whole thing is like an amazing American clusterfuck where there's just so many racist people that the racists are fighting each other because one of them was a bit too mysterious.
You guys want to hear something super fucked up?
Yes, every time.
A couple weekends ago, I was at a bachelor party for a friend of mine, good friend, friend of mine from college.
And I was talking with one of the other bachelor, you know, one of the, you know, the bachelor party friends who was also there.
And he was asking me what I did.
And I was telling him about the podcast.
And then I said, oh, but we're also doing this.
We just started doing a second show, and I was telling him about Trickle Down, and the latest episode that we had done was, you know, the eugenics episode.
And he said, you know, funny enough, he was like, my great-grandfather, William Shockley, he was like, was a very popular figure in the eugenicist movement.
He was like, I mean, he was like, he was fucking crazy and like a racist and all that stuff, like my family's, you know, embarrassed by it.
He was like a big name like in that field and I was like, oh, that's very interesting.
I was like, I will look him up.
So I met a direct descendant of this guy.
Which is incredible because he invented the transistor and like people say of him, he brought the silicon to Silicon Valley.
Yeah, that's what he was saying.
He was like, oh, he did like some cool things, but like he was also like a raving, you know, eugenicist and like, you know, we don't really talk about that.
He was like, but yeah, it's like, you know, a big part of my family history.
So the lesson is if you're going to put up a monument in Georgia, you need to be overtly racist.
Don't be cryptic about it.
Don't don't spin up any mysteries.
Just be like, yeah, I think black people shouldn't reproduce as fast as they are.
And then you know what?
It would probably be still be standing.
They would probably defend it like the Confederate statues.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The fact that there's an air of mystery that's up for interpretation.
No good.
Yeah, that was a mistake.
Now, if he had just engraved the image of Stonewall Jackson on the Georgia Guidestones, they would probably still be up.
It also kind of explains why he was like, we made these simple so everyone can accept them, so there won't be any controversy.
Of course, you know, like many Republicans in the 80s, he could not predict that things would get so much more extreme so that he would eventually look like, I don't know, some sort of centrist or liberal or maybe even a pagan.
I wouldn't go that far and say he looks like a centrist or a liberal.
Well, compared to... I don't know.
I mean, at least he's not screaming about, like, satanic principalities and fighting invisible demons.
He's just a run-of-the-mill, Confederate-style racist.
Right.
So, that's the fun portion of the podcast, and now let's look at face tattoo shooters and... Yeah, I looked at the next section, and I'm not gonna give this dude, like, a cool, deep voice intro.
I guess that's fine.
We'll just move on.
He doesn't deserve his name sounding cool with voice effects and a fun transition and stuff.
So I'm just going to say Bobby Cremo.
That does make him sound like he's a sandwich salesman in Long Island.
Yeah, he's fucking Bobby Cremo.
Fucking Bobby Cremo the third.
The third.
That's right.
Bitch ass.
About 14 minutes after the start of the recent July 4th parade in Highland Park, Illinois, Robert Cremo III opened fire from a rooftop.
According to law enforcement, the suspect fired 83 rounds from a rifle onto the crowd below.
Seven people were killed and at least 38 were wounded.
After the shooting, he then climbed back down to the street.
The suspect blended into the parade while disguised in women's clothing and makeup.
The shooting launched an eight-hour manhunt.
A citizen reportedly spotted Cremo driving, recognized him from images released by law enforcement, and called 911.
He was apprehended by law enforcement in North Chicago following a short vehicle pursuit.
When he was arrested, police recovered a second rifle from inside of Cremo's vehicle.
He has been charged with seven counts of first-degree murder, one for each of the seven people killed.
And while the people of Highland Park mourn the senseless tragedy, we again face the task of trying to figure out why this happened.
You know, I was thinking.
Not long ago, the act of trying to get inside the mind of a mass murderer was the morbid pastime of people like true crime enthusiasts.
But now, as young men launching murderous attacks against innocent people becomes so frequent that it's difficult to separate one from the other, psychoanalyzing killers feels like something more than a weird hobby.
It's more akin to an attempt at self-defense or trying to understand this moment in history.
Now, the killers themselves are usually happy to assist those who want to step into their minds.
They leave behind manifestos they know will be spread in the wake of their slaughter, or in the case of the recent attack in Highland Park, they leave behind a digital footprint.
Cremo made online posts, songs, drawings, symbols, and even a cryptic puzzle, which were all spread across several platforms he participated in over the years.
There are a lot of pitfalls that you can fall into if you try to dig up the online content of killers.
Firstly, sometimes the way people behave online is a performance, an affectation, rather than an honest reflection of their true self or motivations.
Secondly, what you discover might be exactly what the shooter wants you to discover.
So there's a risk that by diving into their online content, you're playing the role that they want you to play.
And thirdly, there may be more relevant information that the individual did not leave online.
You know, it's tempting to give into the cognitive bias of thinking that all you see is all there is, but in reality, there may be much more to be learned.
Robert Cremo, after all, is still alive, so we may get a clearer picture of what led to the horrible crime in the near future as more information comes out.
But that leaves those of us who want to understand or report on incidents like this in a bit of a bind, because to go through their online history in an attempt to find meaning feels a bit like falling into a trap of their own design.
At the same time, it's just not realistic to ignore the content left behind by killers.
Violence demands an attempt to understand its causes.
When researchers do try to piece together meaning from random posts and messages, it should be with the understanding that the content may be there just to fuck with people.
Much like the manifestos of terrorists, a digital footprint may be full of red herrings, in-jokes, or deliberate trolls designed to confuse or spread a particular message.
With all that said, if we do focus on some data points from his digital footprint, a familiar picture starts to appear.
The only politician he expressed support for was former President Trump.
In September of 2020, Cremo was pictured in a Where's Waldo outfit at a Trump rally in Northbrook, Illinois.
Another photo circulating online shows Cremo wrapped in a blue Trump flag.
And then, of course, there is Cremo's choice of a target.
Highland Park is a neighborhood with a large Jewish population.
There are multiple synagogues in town, with even more in the surrounding area.
Four of the seven victims are Jewish, and a two-year-old Jewish boy was orphaned as a result of the attack.
A local Jewish community reported that Krimo had shown up wearing a yarmulke at their synagogue during Passover services.
However, he was confronted by security and turned away.
Krimo operated a Discord called SS, but reportedly former friends claim that it was a reference to the rap group Sleepy Squad rather than a Nazi reference.
In videos, he repeatedly displays the symbol of an angular bow and knot that happens to be the symbol of a Finnish neo-fascist group called Suomen Sisu.
However, there's no other indication that he aligned with that group.
And a former associate of Krimo's told Vice News that he wanted to use the symbol for a clothing line.
Cremo is also active in an online gore forum called Documenting Reality.
It is dedicated to sharing graphic depictions of violence and death.
Some recent posts from Cremo's account on that forum featured anti-Semitic and racist
commentary, specifically calling for violence against Asian and Black people.
He participated in threads that questioned the reality of the Holocaust.
If you take all of these data points together, they paint a picture of yet another white
nationalist terrorist.
Like the one in Buffalo, like the one in El Paso, like the one in Christchurch.
However, things start to become more complicated when we zoom out and take a look at the rest of the content as a whole.
He, for example, had a more generalized fascination with violence.
He produced music under the name Awake the Rapper.
His most recent songs were added to Spotify on May 13, 2022.
Some of the songs made reference to mass shootings.
One of his songs is called I Am the Storm, but there's no real indication he was into QAnon.
Julian, you listened to some of the songs before they were taken down.
What was your impression?
Um, the new stuff is very different.
The latest EP that you mentioned, his old stuff is kind of like, I don't know, sad, kind of incel rap, almost.
Lots of braggadocio and kind of mentions of feeling numb and depressed, disconnected.
You know, having a lack of meaning in life.
And then his new stuff sees his voice completely transformed.
The beats are more like, I don't know, the beats are more like dance music almost.
And I think his latest stuff shows that he was maybe becoming even more unglued from some of the hip-hop that might have served as an influence for his earlier work.
At least two of his music videos depicted some kind of shooting.
On Discord, he shared a photo of Bud Dwyer, a politician who killed himself during a live press conference.
In addition to that, Cremo left behind a kind of puzzle called Project Arcturus.
This involves a 25-page PDF consisting entirely of a sequence of numbers.
Already communities on Reddit and elsewhere have popped up attempting to decode what it means.
And this, I would argue, is a bad idea and not a worthwhile use of anyone's time, because it's the clearest example of the killer hijacking people's natural need to find a signal in the wake of noisy violence.
Either this puzzle is just meaningless garbage, in which case he successfully got a lot of people to waste their time, erode their sanity, and obsess over him, or it contains some sort of extremist message that he wants to spread.
In either case, no one benefits from playing into his attempt at being the Riddler.
I think it is notable that that book was available for sale on Amazon, and that the same author, going by the name Samuel Bromley, who is definitely Robert Cremo, created this kind of decoding book that looked, I don't know, very run-of-the-mill, but apparently even for the people trying to decode it online, didn't really lead them anywhere.
Yeah.
Other than the repeating numbers, you know, that are kind of already obvious in some of his other work.
Information about Cremo collected offline, unsurprisingly, paints a picture of mental instability.
The Daily Beast spoke to a mother of two of Cremo's former skate park friends, and she said that the accused mass murderer threatened to kill himself and attempted suicide a few times.
According to Lake County Deputy Sheriff Chris Covelli, in September of 2019, Highland Park Police were called to the Cremo family home after he threatened to, quote, kill everyone.
Police confiscated 16 knives, a dagger, and a sword and then reported the incident to the Illinois State Police.
But just four months later, the Illinois State Police granted Cremo a firearm owner's identification card that permitted him to buy guns.
Illinois State Police stated that this was because, after the incident, no one, including family, was willing to move forward on the complaint and that, without an official arrest, there was insufficient basis to establish a clear and present danger to deny the firearm owner's application.
To talk more about Bobby Cremo and what may have motivated the shooting, I am joined by extremism researcher Emmy Conley.
You may have read her work for Logically AI or heard her analysis on NPR.
Emmy, thank you so much for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
I'm glad to be here.
Now, first of all, Bobby Cremo left behind a lot of weird content.
Now, do you think it's possible or even worthwhile to figure out what made him commit mass murder based just on his posts?
So I'm, I'm not a social psychologist, nor do I know him personally.
So I can't tell you why he committed murder.
I am by training, though, a rhetorician, which is The person you come to when you don't want satisfying answers about literally anything.
But all of that aside, only he will ever know precisely why he did it.
But were there warning signs?
Was he just the world's largest red flag?
Like, definitely.
He participated in a world full of violence, gore, racism, and hatred.
And I think while we can't say one way or the other if that kind of content radicalized him, or if he was engaging with that kind of content because he was radicalized, in all likelihood it was a combination.
But there's little doubt that there's a relationship between the celebration of mass murder and his act of it.
But I also want to discourage the kind of bugs under glass approach to understanding this stuff.
He's not special.
These communities aren't new.
And I fear that all the excitement around his online activities is sensationalizing them a little bit and kind of creating this new online boogeyman for like parents to be afraid of.
And I want to emphasize that there's a reason he left all of that content available when he committed the attack.
Yeah, that's something we kind of discussed in our little background on him.
We're a little wary of how much of his online digital footprint serves as a kind of manifesto.
It's just sort of left there with the intention of being found.
It was left there with the knowledge that people would go looking for it.
How much of that do you think is at play?
I mean, at best, he was okay if people found it.
It would be a wild logical leap to think that he, like, oops, forgot to delete my socials before I went and did the killing.
Like I said, he left it there for a reason.
He knew it would be seen.
He knew it would be analyzed.
He has obviously been interested in previous mass shooters before, meaning he watched the media cycle around them.
He watched how their content was analyzed.
He watched how their motives were.
We're analyzed.
He's a product of the culture we live in.
And now he's also a creator of it.
Yeah, that's that's kind of a disturbing sort of concept is is sort of like mass shooting as content.
And that used to be a consumer of the content.
And like many, you know, avid consumers, he became a producer as well.
Yeah.
Now, speaking of new panics for parents to get worried about, there's a new word That's been appearing in mainstream media reports around this incident that I don't think has appeared previously.
And that is schizo-posting.
What exactly is schizo-posting?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It isn't the first time this has come up.
It is the first time it was so prominent that it couldn't be ignored by people who weren't already familiar with it.
So he kind of forced my hand as far as my policy on not talking about it.
I want to start off by saying I didn't name it.
It's a really bad name for a lot of reasons.
I didn't choose it, but it's how the communities identify themselves and their style.
But that is mostly what it is.
It's a meme style.
It's themed around paranoid delusions, hallucinations, psychotic breaks, and deeply disturbing imagery.
Some of it more resembles psychological horror content, and others are clearly, you know, meant to be humorous or kind of in it for the meme, relatable content.
It isn't all violent, it isn't all extremist, but violent and or extremist content do very very well in that style.
Perhaps the most common examples at this point are like the I hate the Antichrist meme, or any of the variations of like federal agents are outside my house, which are usually benign enough.
You know, maybe they have a bit of obnoxious, like, libertarianism mixed in there, but plenty of it gets really, really dark, and people subject themselves to that very dark content on purpose.
They engage with it on purpose, and they talk about how they feel themselves changing because of it.
They even make schizo memes about the experience of engaging too much with certain types of schizo content.
And it's both the point and part of the joke.
And, you know, I don't want to focus on it too much because I don't know that the specifics of it are relevant and I don't want to sensationalize it too much.
But one of the themes of the style is that reality isn't real and there aren't any consequences here.
It's always pushing viewers to, like, just go insane.
Just go apeshit.
Stop taking your meds and go out there and see if you can find the edge of the map.
Test how real reality is.
Test it with violence.
Test it with a gun.
Expose the simulation, right?
With what the shooter was trying to do, then there isn't, I mean, there's not any evidence that's, you know, specifically his goal.
Uh, you know, we don't, we don't know if, if that was the kind of thing that motivated him, but we do know he engaged with that sort of content online.
I'm curious about this, I hate the Antichrist meme.
Can you explain that a bit?
Yeah, you, you've probably seen it by now.
It's a dude hiding behind a crate or whatever, holding a gun while, uh, You know, officers storm the place and he's holding the gun saying over and over again, I hate the Antichrist, I hate the Antichrist.
A lot of versions of it have been made and at this point it's, even from the beginning, it's mostly benign.
It's mostly, like, the worst you really see it get is like ATF memes.
But the joke is, you know, agents of some variety are about to, are storming your house and, you know, presumably the subject of the meme is going to shoot them.
And so why choose the Antichrist as a figure?
That's just how the meme started.
You almost never see it with the word Antichrist anymore.
That's just how it began in like, what, 2018 now?
Maybe 2019?
Yeah, it was originally sort of based upon this idea that the New World Order is coming for people, this sort of paranoia that the UN is cracking down on, you know, kind of like, I guess, libertarian-inclined people.
So it also obviously has that kind of like evangelical kind of weird paranoia we see in stuff like, you know, left-behind movies.
And it was making fun of that.
It was it was a mockery of that.
And then it kind of became embraced, unironically feels like the wrong word, considering, you know, no earnestness is allowed to survive on the internet.
But, you know, with a more, more serious tone.
You know, Cremo was also very active in online gore forums.
What do you think we can make of that data point?
A guy who enjoyed looking at violent images and acts of terror then went on to add to the library for people who like terror.
So yeah, I think that's relevant.
But not for the reason a lot of people think.
I'm trying to avoid the moral panic of your kid schizo-pilling himself on the internet.
Come on, man.
But the gore, the hate speech, the celebration of other killers, it's important.
It's really important.
The internet gave him tons of practice at dehumanizing other people and at, like, practiced dissociation.
These are the kind of things that you really need if you're going to get into a state where you can kill people when you aren't under Immediate threat.
The motivation for that kind of act, for most prominent known acts of terror, comes from a more specific doctrine, right?
You have to have an image of the future you want to create.
You have to have a deep personal grudge or, you know, some spiritual purpose, right?
You know, something to die for.
It isn't easy to kill people most of the time, so if you lack that kind of purpose and you're still able to do it, that scares the shit out of people.
It's a big part of the reason everyone is, like, really eager to have a label for this guy, because it's fucking terrifying to think that a person who wasn't deeply committed to something could do something like that, right?
It's terrifying to think that someone could condition themselves, sever themselves from their conscience, and gain the ability to kill without, like, a capital C cause.
And is your reticence to kind of focus too much on schizoposting?
I mean, the way that I kind of think of it is like the house is burning down and it's setting off fireworks and we're studying the fireworks.
I mean, is there something to that?
Is it because the macro conditions are more relevant?
I think it would have been worth studying two years ago, but it has reached a saturation point on the internet that it feels not helpful to overanalyze schizoposting itself.
It has enough reach at this point that a lot of it is benign.
However, if you are looking deep at particularly, you know, fascist communities or any of these kind of gore forums, you're going to see it a lot.
It's really, really concentrated there.
And that's a problem.
But it's a problem that I think maybe more helps you understand the gore posters more than it helps you understand schizo posting, if that makes sense.
Yeah, speaking of, like, you know, the idea that, you know, there's not a spiritual or political mission to the violence, there was a bit of a dust up in the online extremism researcher community regarding how to classify these acts.
You know, I've seen the term post-ideological extremist violence used and I have to say, that struck me as a little strange because in my understanding, extremist violence is usually a political tool used to advance the interests of a particular in-group and then harm a particular out-group.
So what is your take on this concept?
What does it mean for violence to not have ideological content?
So, all right, it's gonna come in a couple parts.
I think a big part of the problem was that people were conflating his online activities with the attack.
And those things are related, but they're different.
So in the conversation about the online spaces he occupied, those spaces are a just a horrible, rotten fruit salad of terrible ideas.
You know, it's a blend of different ideologies.
And Like anything deep on the internet, you know, like I said earlier, earnestness is not permitted, so no one, quote-unquote, genuinely believes in anything.
It's all a joke until it's not, you know?
The usual type of plausible deniability, edgelord conversations.
They sometimes don the appearance of certain extremist groups either because they can, and they think it's funny, and they think hate speech is funny, or because someone is fucking around and trying to recruit in there.
You know, usually you see more far-right stuff than far-left because the far-left is not even half as organized, violent, or even real in a meaningful way.
But that's not to say some weird leftists don't also roll up in there every now and then.
But you'll find more people doing ironic but not ironic Nazism than anything else.
And that space is worthless to try to define.
I think that's what a lot of us were trying to communicate when we were talking about that as post-ideological.
They're willing to play with ideology, but they don't commit to it because they don't care.
They've moved past it.
They may have committed to an ideology at some point, but they're beyond that now.
Ideology was the step behind them.
They have transcended that and now look at even the concept of ideology itself as a thing
for idiot normies who still believe in something.
As for him though, he might believe all sorts of things, but he chose not to tell us when
he did the attack.
So anything we have, no matter how compelling, is still speculation.
If he had a political goal he didn't share.
If he wanted to inspire others, he did a bad job at communicating his intentions.
If he was targeting a certain group, he didn't announce it, you know, which is what you do if it's a call to arms, right?
That isn't to say he didn't have a deeply held reasoning or political goal in mind for doing it, but that he chose not to state it explicitly, which is relevant information.
You know, if his goal was to make us argue about what he is, Just like how the Buffalo and Christchurch shooters made references to leftist politics to muddy the waters, then mission accomplished, I guess.
But, you know, we can't know anything like that for sure right now.
It seems like dissociation and numbness really define, you know, the kind of different aesthetic stances that he that he took online.
You know, that that was something that was a through line in his music as well.
And Travis, you mentioned the in group and the out group.
And to me, Some of this seems like the outgroup was just everything, the world, you know?
Fuck the world.
I can't get these things, you know, my music career going or whatever, and so fuck everyone.
Fuck fuck reality.
Fuck the basic tenets that everyone espouses by just being and interacting with each other in an earnest way.
Right, and the idea is that if you consume enough of the violent content, if you expose yourself enough to the really, you know, traumatizing things, you can reach a point where you can, you know, snip that little part of your brain that keeps you human.
And when you get good enough at being able to dehumanize other people, It makes it much easier to stop recognizing any kind of emotional attachments you might have to other things, right?
It makes it easier to deconstruct reality in your mind.
I think these things are relevant, but the extent to which he was consciously trying to do them is speculative at this point.
I mean, I guess what's for certain is that he threw his life away in some way.
So why make that sacrifice?
You know, what is the point of that sacrifice?
I think it's a really great question, and it's part of the thing that's making everybody feel so strongly about this shooting.
Not just that it's dramatic, not just that it's a shooting, not just, you know, people care about it like they do every other shooting.
But the fact that that answer didn't come readily apparent is something that's extremely disturbing.
To everyone, but especially to people who are, you know, more familiar with the type of clear ideological violence that gives you a known threat, right?
And this doesn't have that, which makes it deeply unsatisfying and also terrifying, right?
It makes it an unknown.
He had a sex doll that he would kind of drive around.
He even kind of did a mise-en-scene, like, in some of his content where he, you know, killed, quote-unquote, killed her.
And a lot of his friends were, you know, growing increasingly convinced that he had lost touch.
And it feels almost like, you know, when you mentioned in-groups and out-groups, he became part of his own out-group.
He's like, fuck my life too.
Fuck me too.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's part of a lot of it.
He clearly had every possible warning sign in the book, which is one of the things that makes me just deeply frustrated about every mass shooting, but especially the conversation around this one is like, we aren't failing to catch them.
We're failing to stop them.
Almost every single one of these dudes is prior known to law enforcement and has friends
and family who was like, "Yeah, that dude was weird.
He made me deeply uncomfortable.
I was afraid about what he was going to do."
And somehow none of those things were enough to prevent the attacks that followed, which
makes, I mean, in a horrible way, every conversation about who and what he is and what motivated
him useless.
If it's like, "Well, we figured out where the problem's coming from."
We figured out what type of guy he is.
Does it matter?
Does it impact our ability to prevent it?
And if the answer is no, then what are we doing?
You know, I get that there are like, you know, complexities and nuances and unknowns.
But, you know, at the same time, when you look at his digital footprint, it seems as though there are a lot of puzzle pieces that point to this being a white supremacist or anti-Semitic attack.
You know, he made posts attacking black and Asian people in a web forum.
He also participated in a conversation about the reality of the Holocaust.
He reportedly surveyed a synagogue right before the attack.
His attack targeted a heavily Jewish neighborhood, and most of the victims are Jewish.
In addition to that, he was photographed at a Trump rally and also wrapped in a Trump flag.
So what exactly is preventing us from saying, well, this guy is just a white nationalist terrorist, a little different than the Buffalo shooter or a little different than the Tree of Life shooter?
So he's definitely racist, definitely anti-semitic, but unlike those other attacks, this was not a clear call to race war.
If it was, then he forgot to hit send on the post like all the others did.
But racism and anti-semitism are still really important to what he is because they can, again, they contribute to his ability to dehumanize other people to the point of inflicting violence upon them.
But based on the evidence we have now, we can't definitively say why he chose the place he did or why he carried out the attack.
We can't.
We just can't.
That isn't to deny his hate speech or political activities, but I am someone who studies communicative violence.
You know, I study these things to determine their propaganda value. So I have to interrogate the
questions, you know, why didn't he shoot up the synagogue, right? He had the opportunity to, he chose
not to. Why didn't he do the shooting wrapped in the Trump flag? Why didn't he leave behind clear
intentions, right? Any one of those things would have made his motive more clear and therefore
any potential political messaging or intentions much more powerful.
But he didn't do any of those things.
And it could be because he fucked up and isn't good at terrorism.
But he's a meme guy.
No, he's extremely online.
He understands what information carries.
So you have to wonder if he was maybe doing something else other than your standard.
And God, it's fucking disgusting that I can even say standard.
Like, it happens that often.
But your standard racist act of mass violence.
But it's also really important to note that this difference doesn't exist to the victims, right?
If you're someone who suffered because of racist violence, Then you fucking suffered because of racist violence.
Like, I don't want to nitpick anybody's pain or grief, right?
There's a tremendous amount of trauma associated with this, and my little taxonomies are, like, charitably unhelpful when it comes to processing that.
I mean, this is literally the worst possible time to have this conversation, but it's also the only time anybody wants to have it.
And it's shitty.
It's shitty and I don't have a good answer to that.
And I hope for as much bullshit media attention I've gotten over the last week, that people give twice as much to the people who actually suffered.
Because the people who live in absolute fear of hate-based violence, I mean, even if they tell me I'm wrong, are still the ones whose voices deserve priority over mine.
One thing that really struck me is that he had the tattoo of the number 47 on his face.
You know, he seemed obsessed with the number.
He committed the violence on 7-4.
And that almost tells me that targeting the synagogue on the 4th of July, which would have been empty, was impossible.
So, were his priorities more, like you say, to the meme or to this kind of cryptic identity he was building online through these numbers than the anti-Semitic focus that he would have portrayed by committing the violence on a day where people were congregating at the synagogue?
I can't say.
You know, at this point it would, again, be extremely speculative.
I think all of those things are compelling and I think that they're relevant.
But I can't definitively say they are why he did it.
I'm trying to come to those conclusions before, you know, you learn anything else.
Can be problematic at best, but I don't think it's irrelevant.
I just think it's not enough right now.
You look at any of the other shooters and they were all extremely clear about what they did and why, because that's how you make it an act of political messaging.
So it's not like he was unaware of those guys, right?
He was in Like, communities that celebrated mass shooters.
He understood what made each of those guys stand apart, and which ones made them have particular types of media relevance.
So, he either forgot some of his schooling, or, you know, he was doing something more complicated.
I can't say either way, but he targeted a community that was mostly Jewish.
That is true.
And Jewish people are overwhelmingly targeted for this type of violence.
I won't discount either of those two things.
Emi, thank you so much for joining us.
It was a really fascinating, disturbing conversation.
You can follow Emi at GamerGirlWrites on Twitter, but no guarantee she's actually going to respond to your follow.
But thank you so much for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
Take care of each other out there.
Thanks, Emi.
Thanks for listening to another episode of the QAnon Anonymous podcast.
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Listener, until next week, may the Deep Dish bless you and keep you.
It's not a conspiracy.
It's a fact.
And now, today's Auto-Q.
Over 951 cubic feet of granite make up the 11 pieces of the London.
The overall height is 19 feet 3 inches from the surface of the ground to the top of the capstone.
There are slots and holes in the center stone that have astrological significance because they have been cut at precise angles to permit accurate readings of the sun and moon at various times of the year.
Standing on the highest point of Elbert County, the Georgia Guidestones have raised a lot of questions.
Four upright stones more than 16 feet high with support stones totaling almost 238,000 pounds.
And there's a message sandblasted in 12 languages in letters two inches tall.
The sponsors of the mysterious project are said to be an anonymous group of out-of-state Americans promoting the concept of the conservation of mankind.
Here's the mystery, though.
Elberton Granite businessman Joe Finley was contacted to build a project by a man using the fictitious name of R.C.
Christian.
Granite City Bank president Wyeth Martin served as intermediary, handled the escrow account for all funds, and says he'll carry the secret of who R.C.
Christian is to his grave.
Well, in spite of what we don't know, Congressman Doug Bernard dedicated the guidestones with an open mind.
We must stress today the need for self-control, for self-restraint, and yes, self-government.
All of which I interpret in this Georgia Guidestones.
The sense of prominence is there, and we do know this.
The Georgia Guidestones are some of the largest granite monuments ever erected.
They can be seen for years to come on Georgia Highway 77, seven miles north of Elberton.
