Extraterrestrials, dimensional portals, ghost direwolves, UFOs and cattle mutilation. Skinwalker Ranch in Utah has attracted the attention of millionaire Mormons and been studied by various groups of scientists. Jake takes a dip in the water. Apologies to the Ute tribe for consistently mispronouncing the word "Ute" in this episode.
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Welcome, listener, to Premium Chapter 130 of the QAnon Anonymous Podcast, the Skinwalker Ranch episode.
As always, we are your hosts, Jake Rokitansky, Julian Field, and Travis View.
If you're familiar with QAnon, you already know that it is what we call a Big Tent Conspiracy, a belief system that encapsulates just about every conspiracy theory under the sun.
But what if there was a place beyond the imagination?
A place where just about every paranormal conspiracy did exist all at once?
Well, dear listeners, look no further than Skinwalker Ranch, a 512-acre property located in Utah where the property owners and visitors alike have experienced all of the following poltergeists.
Floating orbs, cryptids, creatures, alien beings, portals to another dimension, UFOs, and strange scientific anomalies.
We'll dig into the ranch's history, the various phenomena experienced there, and the multi-millionaires who even today are still trying to harness its power.
For this episode, I'm relying heavily on Colm A. Kelleher's and George Knapp's The Hunt for the Skinwalker, which is to date the most comprehensive literature written about the ranch.
So strap yourselves in, put some fresh batteries in your tri-meters, and try to keep your heads from swelling.
George Knapp.
George Knapp was born in the town of Woodbury, New Jersey in 1953.
At a young age, his family moved to Northern California, where George graduated from high school and then went on to earn a communications degree at the University of West Georgia and a master's degree in communications from the University of the Pacific.
He taught forensics and debate at UC Berkeley before moving to Las Vegas in an effort to break into the news industry.
He drove a cab for a while before scoring an intern gig at PBS.
Eventually, in the late 80s, he landed a job working as a reporter for KLAS, a CBS affiliate in the Las Vegas, Nevada area.
Knapp's first big scoop was a profile of Bob Lazar, who claimed to have worked at Area 51.
According to George himself, his interest in Area 51 didn't initially spawn from a quest to prove the existence of extraterrestrials, but rather the military black projects that had taken place there.
Here he is discussing that in 1992 with Don Ecker on his radio program UFOs Tonight.
George, you've been involved in this crazy field now off and on since 1989.
Did you have an interest in this subject or have you ever encountered it prior to that?
It was prior to 1989.
I mean, I think before that, I had the same kind of interest that any reasonable-thinking, open-minded person would have.
You know, you figure it's an interesting topic, but it's not an obsession.
Stories about Area 51, of course, in the news business in Las Vegas had been floating around for a long time, not necessarily associated with flying saucers, but about A whole variety of black projects.
The U-2 spy plane we knew was based out there.
The SR-71 particle beam weapons testing programs.
The commandos that made the oil-faded raid on Iran to rescue the hostages during the Carter years were trained there.
A lot of strange stuff has gone on.
My news director at KLAS, Bob Stodol, had had a fascination with the area.
My managing editor, a guy named Ned Day, ...and also had a fascination with the area and actually broke the story about stealth technology being developed there.
He did that with the help of a guy named John Lear, who was probably known to your audience as an aviator and now a UFO researcher, who became an important source for him.
In 1987, John Lear came cruising into the TV station with the MJ-12 documents and another pile of other UFO material, trying to interest my bosses in the UFO story.
They weren't buying it.
They thought Basically, people would laugh him out of the room.
I overheard part of the conversation and I said to Lear before he left, hey, let me take a look at that stuff.
And I found it to be intriguing and fascinating.
I put Lear on this talk show that I produced at the time called On The Record and just basically let him go.
John is a controversial figure in UFO circles.
A lot of people think that some of the stuff that he says is not supported, but It was very interesting.
It seemed to touch a nerve with the audience because this little public affairs show...
Got the best ratings, the best public response it ever had.
So we have some early evidence here that platforming conspiracy theories will garner you the most amount of views you've ever received.
Which, you know, explains the current state of the world, I suppose.
From here on out, it sounds like our boy was pretty damn pilled.
Although he did go on to win two Peabody Awards in the early thousands for various investigative pieces that had nothing to do with paranormal phenomenon or UFOs, it's pretty clear that Knapp had found his calling.
What actually pilled George the most wasn't so much the UFO evidence he uncovered, but rather the fear he felt as an investigator who was digging into secret projects helmed by the United States government.
You had mentioned that while an investigative reporter you probed the mafia, you probed organized crime in Las Vegas, and you never encountered anything that generated the fear that You experienced, as an investigative reporter, dealing with covert aspects of our government.
I mean, this was a heavy, heavy-duty statement for you to make.
Well, it was, and I didn't make it just in a cavalier manner.
It really, when Bob went on the air, he'd been on the air in May of 1989, but he was using a pseudonym.
Dennis at the time, wasn't it?
When he said who he was, I mean, the phones rang off the hook.
They basically didn't stop for a couple of weeks.
With other people who had bits and pieces of information, no one at the time who claimed that the broad spectrum of information that Bob said he had, but other people with bits and pieces about the program out there.
What's amazing is how many of these people, and I don't mean to sound like some exaggeration, paranoid type person, How many of these people who called up and offered little bits and pieces of information were contacted subsequently by agents of different government agencies?
In one case, it was a guy who said that he prepared tax returns for a lot of the people who worked at Area 51 and had obtained information from them that, yes, there were alien craft that were stored and being tested out there.
The day after he called me with that information, he gets a knock on the door from two guys who say they're from the Secret Service.
The Secret Service?
Yeah.
That's the Department of Treasury.
Yeah.
What would they be doing there?
Well, he said that they were trying to lean on him about an older matter that he dealt with.
I mean, he dealt with tax matters, but he said the message that he got, and I have this in writing, the message he got was very clear.
It's to shut your mouth about what you learned about Area 51.
Now, due to the incredible diligence of the UFO community, I have actually obtained a clip from the original news broadcast in 1989 that's being discussed here.
And it's a little eerie, especially when compared to the recent resurgence of reports on UFO videos that have just been officially released by the Pentagon.
Here's George on KLAS in 1989 in the midst of his five-part series on Bob Lazar.
First, I just want to play the opening of the program, because looking back at it now, in 2021, you forget just how pilled the news was.
This week in our series of reports on UFOs, we learned a number of things.
That not everybody who sees a UFO is crazy, that our government has lied about UFO information, that it's withheld UFO files, and even spied on UFO witnesses.
We've also heard from scientists who say life elsewhere in the universe is virtually a certainty.
And we heard that a majority of Americans believe that UFOs are real and come from space.
Tonight, in Part 5 of his report, George Knapp introduces us to a local man with an amazing and disturbing story.
George.
Gary and Mary Ruth, we've been working on this story for a long time.
And we'll tell you right up front that it's going to be hard to swallow at first.
This week we've heard the contention of UFO researchers that there is a secret government within our government.
While that may be hard to believe coming from the UFO perspective, we've certainly learned in Watergate and the Iran-Contra scandal.
That factions within our government can and do pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law, outside the control of Congress, or the knowledge of the American people.
This is exactly the type of operation we'll hear about tonight.
It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may have its roots right here.
Damn, that is a news report.
Now that is a fucking news report.
The deep state, agencies within agencies, clandestine operations, shadowy agendas, and the other reporters don't even bat an eye.
I mean, what do you guys think of this?
I think I might tune into my local news, you know, if they have featured hovering UFOs more often.
There's a dearth of that on, for example, OAN and Newsmax.
Like, if you're going to have full-on, pilled, 24-hour channels, it should be at least a third UFO stuff and aliens.
Yeah, just give us a little Jordan Sather alien disclosure stuff.
But his is so fucking boring.
Like, he never discusses anything interesting like what the aliens do or experiences that people have had.
He's just like one of these highly clinical guys that just, like, shelves the aliens into a broader disclosure yearning.
Yeah, Knapp sort of takes it head on, and he's so serious about it, and delivers it in this kind of unflinching, kind of, you know, the facts-only way that it's easy to see why he became so popular.
Earlier in the series in question, George had interviewed a shadowy figure named Dennis, who claimed to have worked at Area 51, and that the site was home to nine extraterrestrial crafts.
In the following clip, Dennis doxes himself in an interview with George Knapp.
The live interview with the shadowy dentist drew international attention.
Portions were broadcast by radio in six European countries and in a nationally televised TV special in Japan.
Actually, nine flying saucers, flying disks.
Despite numerous inquiries and feelers, Dennis has remained anonymous until now.
His real name is Robert Lazar, a young scientist with eclectic interests.
The choice of Dennis was an inside joke.
He says that's the name of his superior at Groom Lake.
It wasn't a joke to Dennis.
He called right after, he said, do you have any idea what we're going to do to you now?
And I said, well, no.
He hung up the phone.
Lazar's story is, by any standards, fantastic.
He says he's telling it in order to protect himself.
He says he was hired to work at an area called S4, which is a few miles south of Groom Lake.
At S4, he says, are flying saucers, anti-matter reactors, and other working examples of technology that is seemingly beyond human capabilities.
Right, this came from somewhere else.
I mean, as bizarre as that is to believe, but I mean, it's there.
I saw it.
I know what the current state of the art is in physics and It can't be done.
Checking out Lazar's credentials proved to be a difficult task.
He says he earned degrees in physics and electronics, but the schools we contacted say they've never heard of him.
He also said he worked as a physicist at Los Alamos National Lab, where he experimented with one of the world's largest particle beam accelerators, a half-mile long behemoth capable of generating 700 million volts.
Los Alamos officials told us they had no records of a Robert Lazar ever working there.
They were either mistaken or were lying.
A 1982 phone book from the lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and technicians.
A 1982 clipping from the Los Alamos newspaper profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars.
It too mentioned his employment at the lab as a physicist.
We called Los Alamos again.
An exasperated official told us he still had no records on Lazar.
EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was interviewed for the job at S4, also has no records.
It's as if someone has made him disappear.
Well, they're trying to make me a non-person.
That is a real investigation.
That is an investigation.
Yeah, they'll take what they say at face value.
Nice.
So even though the UFO community tends to be a little bit split on the full testimony of Bob Lazar, Nat became a hero journalist for those interested in esoteric studies.
Even to this day, George sits in to host the famous Coast to Coast AM a couple Sundays each month.
Good evening, everyone.
You're in the right place at the right time.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
Blasting out of the Mojave Desert like a Chiraco.
Blazing across the land.
Slamming into your radio like a supercharged nanoparticle of unobtainium.
Greetings from the boldest, bawdiest, most outrageous city in the world.
The planetary capital of sun, fun, sin, sex, and secrets.
My not so humble hometown, Las Vegas, Nevada.
My name is George Knapp, your occasional host, designated driver of the airwaves, and moderator of tonight's upcoming cacophonous cavalcade of conversation.
It seems like every time I return to coast this show after being away for a couple of weeks, I say something along the lines of, wow, sure is a lot of UFO news to digest.
And it seems like every month of 2021 has brought more revelations, more media coverage, And sources and other people stepping forward to reveal things more than we've seen before, and we've seen a heck of a lot since 2017 when things kind of turned around on this subject.
As I've said before, I never thought I would live to see this kind of a turnaround when it comes to UFOs, media coverage, government agencies actually answering questions, military and other witnesses coming forward to tell what they know, the laughter subsiding.
Even though we have a long way to go, I think on all those counts, a long way to go, but we've come a long way.
And you guys will notice, I describe George as pilled, but not red-pilled, because it does not seem like he subscribes to, specifically, the QAnon belief system.
In fact, on the Coast to Coast website, there is a section called NAPS News, where he shares various articles that he finds interesting.
This week, the selections were about Navy Drones, the upcoming government UAP report, and an article written by Vice's David Gilbert about the QAnon militia of ex-cops and soldiers.
So congrats, David.
Your work is being shared by a fucking legend.
That's pretty darn cool.
And very nice to see somebody who is pilled to the gills, but on the fun stuff, you know?
We apologize to David Gilbert for getting him fired from Vice.
All it took was an episode of Skinwalker Ranch!
Speaking of, let's go back to the ranch.
Up until very recently, George Knapp was the only journalist who had been allowed on Skinwalker Ranch.
Because of the respect he had earned amongst the paranormal research community, And his willingness to take on stories most other journalists would have laughed at, Knapp was invited to the ranch in the mid-90s to work alongside a team of scientists.
He conducted hundreds of interviews and recorded over a hundred hours of video footage while investigating the property.
Those stories and others that occurred throughout the ten years George spent studying the ranch became the basis for the only book that George ever wrote.
Hunt for the Skinwalker.
The book was released in 2005 and co-authored by Dr. Colm A. Kelleher, another researcher who had worked on the ranch with George in the mid-90s.
But dear listeners, as you surely know by now, our story begins long before George Knapp.
and long before the Gormans, the infamous family that lived on the ranch where most of the stories originate from.
That's right, I'm stepping into the DeLorean and setting the dial for the Uinta Basin of Northeast Utah in the early
1700s.
Where we're going, we won't need brains.
The Legend of the Skinwalker Stories of the fabled Skinwalkers have been passed down
through many generations of Native American tribes.
While the details differ slightly, the Navajo, Hopi, and Oots tribes all believe in the existence of what is essentially a medicine man gone bad.
a powerful shaman who has decided to use their powers for evil instead of good.
The process of becoming a Skinwalker is a grim one.
It is only after murdering a close family member, such as a parent or sibling, that
one is offered the opportunity to transform into a Skinwalker, whose Navajo name I will
not pronounce for fear of gaining the attention of any that might be hanging around Julian's
apartment.
Bill Clinton.
He's got ya.
Skinwalkers are often described as being draped in animal skins and having glowing red eyes.
According to the legends, they possess the ability to shapeshift into any animal they choose.
However, the most common forms are that of a wolf, a bird, a fox, or a bear.
Which one would you guys pick?
Ooh, I mean, bird, probably.
That'd be fun to fly.
Yeah, I want to fly so bad, it's true.
I'll take the bird.
I'll go with fox.
Fox would be my second choice.
I look forward to shitting on you from high above.
You're not going to shit on me from my fox hole, you moron.
Too much violence with the wolf and the bear.
I don't want to be tearing other animals to shreds.
That doesn't seem like fun.
I love that even in the Fox world, Travis stays inside and studies QAnon on the computer.
Skinwalkers are also said to be able to infect the minds of human beings, either causing them serious medical harm or driving them to harm themselves.
The beliefs in these curses are taken so seriously, references to them have even found their way into modern court cases.
In the book, Knapp writes of one particular case in the mid-1970s in Arizona involving a young lawyer named Michael Stuff.
Stuff was working at- What?
His name is Michael Stuff?
Michael Stuff, yeah.
Okay, cool.
S-T-U-H-F.
Yeah.
Could be Michael Stoof, but I think Stuff is probably better.
Mmm.
Stuff was working for a legal aid program in Ganado, and many of his clients were Navajo.
The case in question involved a young Navajo woman who was trying to gain full custody of her child from her estranged husband.
During the proceedings, the husband was permitted to spend some time with the boy.
Even though the visit was supposed to last a couple hours, The man disappeared with the boy and did not return him to his mother until the next morning.
According to the child, he and his father had visited a medicine man in the woods, and the man had sung songs and performed ceremonies the entire evening in front of a huge fire atop a steep cliff.
The ceremony culminated with the three of them traveling to a nearby wooded area next to a cemetery.
Once there, the medicine man buried two wooden dolls, meant to represent the boy's mother and the young attorney.
Stuff consulted a Navajo professor at the local community college, who told him the bad news.
The ritual was intended to make both the mother and Stuff end up buried at the cemetery.
According to the professor, if the victim of such a curse was able to find out it had been placed on them, then the negative effects would bounce back to the medicine man that originally performed it.
Kind of like, I'm rubber, you're glue, that sort of thing.
Even though the lawyer didn't believe in any of the paranormal aspects of the ceremony, his client was so worried for their safety that Stuff filed an emergency motion in the court.
Stuff thought about a way to let the husband know that he had found out about the ceremony.
So he filed court papers that requested an injunction against the husband and the unknown medicine man, whom he described in the court documents as John Doe, a witch.
The motion describes in great detail the alleged ceremony.
The opposing attorney appeared extremely upset by the motion, as did the husband and presiding judge.
The opposing lawyer argued to the court that the medicine man had performed a blessing way ceremony, not a curse.
But Stuff knew that the judge, who was a Navajo, could distinguish between a blessing ceremony, which takes place in Navajo homes, and what was obviously a darker ceremony involving lookalike dolls that took place in the woods near a cemetery.
The judge nodded in agreement when Stuff responded.
Before the judge could rule, Stuff requested a recess so that the significance of his legal motion could sink in.
The next day, the husband capitulated by agreeing to grant total custody to the mother And to pay back all child support.
When it came to the ranch itself, a local science teacher and historian, Junior Hicks, gave an explanation for how a skinwalker might have come to haunt the area.
A member of the Ootz tribe and a friend of Junior's had explained that the curse in the Uinta Basin stretched back for at least, quote, 15 generations.
That at some point during the 1800s, after being gifted horses by the Spanish, the Utes
embraced the "Spanish way of life" and began abducting people from the Navajo tribes
and selling them to slave markets in New Mexico.
Oh, I love when someone is civilized into being a slave market owner.
Just so you guys know I'm not making this up, I've included a passage from the Comanche
Empire written by Pekka Hamilainen.
Utes had first entered New Mexico's slave market as commodities seized and sold by Spanish,
Navajo, and Apache slave raiders, but the allied Utes and Comanches soon inserted themselves
at the supply end of the slave traffic.
When not raiding New Mexico for horses, boots and Comanches arrived peacefully to sell human loot.
Their raiding parties ranged westward into Navajo country and northward into Pawnee country to capture women and children, but their main target were the Carlana and Kikarilla Apache villages in the upper Arkansas basin at the western edge of the southern plains.
There was also the fact that during the Civil War, members of the Utes tribe had joined American military campaigns that pitted them against Navajo people.
For these acts of betrayal and violence, the man claimed that the Navajo had cursed the Utes people, and that the Skinwalker has plagued the area ever since.
The story of the Gormans sounds like the start of every scary movie you've seen.
In the fall of 1994, the family had moved from New Mexico to get away from the hustle and bustle of big city life.
They wanted a piece of land to call their own, and for their two children to grow up in a rural environment surrounded by nature.
Tom Gorman, the father, was an incredibly competent rancher, and his livestock quality was well-respected.
He specialized in black Angus cattle and made a decent living breeding, raising, and selling them.
So when the family had come across Skinwalker Ranch, which was a huge piece of land with ample farm space and three homesteads situated over the 500 acre property for a very fair price, they couldn't believe their luck.
In fact, they couldn't understand why the previous owners who had owned the property since the 50s were so hasty Now, what the Gormans didn't know was that since the 50s, the Uintah Basin was considered a UFO hot zone.
Junior Hicks, the science teacher and area's resident UFO expert, documented thousands of cases where crafts had been sighted.
Hicks believed that the area was ripe for research by extraterrestrials due to the intense religious beliefs by folks who lived there.
This area of Utah is overwhelmingly Mormon and has been for a long time.
President Abraham Lincoln himself had to establish The Uinta Native American Reservation in 1861 because the Native Americans and Mormons were getting into way too many violent conflicts.
When the Gormans arrived on the property, they were a little weirded out by the fact that every single door in the house was bolted from the inside and the outside.
Every window was bolted down.
It appeared that the previous owners were very paranoid about security and had either sealed themselves inside or were trying to keep something out.
Another odd detail was that in the sale clause, the previous owners had emphasized that the Gormans were required to notify them ahead of time if they planned to do any digging whatsoever on the property.
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