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Dec. 9, 2019 - QAA

01:19:07

Episode 69: Exiting the Cult feat Steven Hassan

Mind control & cult specialist Steven Hassan joins us to discuss the QAnon movement & his own exit from Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church (AKA 'The Moonies'). An editing snafu also reveals some more nefarious plans. Subscribe for $5 a month and receive double the episodes & access to the whole archive: patreon.com/qanonanonymous Music by Nick Sena (www.nicksenamusic.com)

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	What's up QAA listeners?
	The fun games have begun.
	I found a way to connect to the internet.
	I'm sorry boy.
	Welcome, listener, to the 69th chapter of the QAnon Anonymous podcast, the Starting a Cult episode.
	As always, we are your hosts, Jake Rakitansky, Julian Fields, and Travis View.
	If you've ever listened to one of our Listener Stories episodes, you know that many people have lost loved ones to the QAnon truth-telling machine.
	The movement is arguably a cult, and we do often have listeners write in to ask, how can I get my loved one to spit up the red pill and come back to the light?
	Well, we usually skirt the issue because, to be quite honest, none of us are even remotely qualified to address it properly.
	But this week, we have invited Stephen Hassan to guest on the podcast and perhaps shed some light on the issue.
	Stephen is a mental health professional who has, since the mid-70s, helped people exit cults.
	He's uniquely qualified to deal with the matter, having once been a member of Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church before being deprogrammed by his own family.
	So, there's that to look forward to.
	And have you heard, while we're on the topic, that we're doing our live show in Los Angeles on Saturday, February 8th?
	If you're in the region, do not miss the opportunity to say you were at the very first gig and to be there for the execution of Jake Rokitansky.
	So go to tickets.qanonanonymous.com and get yourself a piece of history.
	Don't forget to bring your unsoiled napkins and handkerchiefs so you can dip in his blood.
	Yeah, we're going to let, we're going to choose how we do the execution by listener vote.
	So I'm very excited.
	I know how I'm voting, but interesting to see.
	I mean, I was going to do it tenderly.
	Oh, okay.
	That's very nice of you.
	But I guess they could vote for something more brutal.
	I think if I'm getting executed, I deserve a slightly bigger piece of the Patreon money, just for my troubles.
	Okay, well, sure.
	I want it buried with me.
	Buried?
	Buried with me.
	Yeah.
	In a tomb.
	On like some RFID card or something?
	I want my Xbox also buried with me.
	Okay.
	And my dog and my girlfriend, so you'll have to execute them as well.
	Man, whoever digs up that grave will get like a half-installed early access game.
	I look forward to their beautiful, just the shittiest treasure.
	Hey, we found the treasure.
	What?
	A broken unfinished game!
	Looks like he opened it once and then never put the screws back in.
	Like maybe lost one or two of them?
	Anyways, I also figured we'd give out a couple of links up front.
	People have been asking where they can come and chat and hang out.
	That's at discord.qanonanonymous.com.
	And you can get t-shirts, mugs, and other stuff at merch.qanonanonymous.com.
	There may be an expansion of types of merch and stuff like that soon.
	I have a meeting early next week with some people.
	Cool.
	Yeah.
	Anyways, that's just what I'll say.
	The two others don't know anything about it, and I like it that way.
	Now before we jump in...
	First up, we have QAnon killer Anthony Camelo's statements to police ruled admissible by judge.
	He killed QAnon?
	So what happened was that after Anthony Camelo was arrested back in March, he was interrogated by police for about three and a half hours.
	And during that, he provided multiple inconsistent stories about why he killed reputed mob boss Frank Cali.
	Can't even get a straight story from a guy who has his hand entirely tattooed with Big Ben shit.
	Camelo's lawyers wanted those statements suppressed in trial due to Camelo's physical and mental state at the time of the interview.
	But on December 5th, Justice William E. Garnett said that those statements were in fact admissible.
	Furthering problems for Camelo on Wednesday, December 4th, a doctor from the district attorney's office went to evaluate Camelo on his mental state, but Camelo refused to cooperate.
	When the judge asked Camelo, you risk losing your defense for mental defect.
	Do you understand?
	Camelo responded by saying, yes, sir.
	So just a profoundly mentally ill man.
	He doesn't want to degrade the community.
	He doesn't want to give other Q followers the idea that they're mentally unstable or that they have some kind of defect.
	Although I doubt he has that intention, I very much doubt that's in any way what he's trying to do.
	I do believe that's what they will take from it.
	Yeah, exactly.
	What do you expect from me?
	The end of this road is conclusion.
	People who believe in QAnon are not crazy, and they'll take that one to the fucking bank.
	That's like a Q-proof, basically.
	Yeah, they're like, we murder in good conscience.
	It's not a mental defect that caused one of our own to kill.
	It doesn't help that you're trying to prove he's crazy for killing a mob boss, which is essentially what every comic book hero would be lauded if they did.
	He thinks he's fucking Venom.
	He's like, oh yeah, we're really gonna, you know, hate on Venom.
	The beautiful Venom of our movement.
	Who has like, yes, a symbiote that takes over your hand.
	It starts with just blue Bic on your hand.
	And eventually, you become a blue Bic colored Venom.
	Eventually it forms itself into a gun and pulls its own trigger while it points your arm.
	It fucking rules, dude.
	And then if you use the red colored Bic, you become Carnage.
	They're gonna have their Carnage, of course.
	It's gonna be good.
	This is gonna be good.
	Yeah, and then, um, who's Spider-Man in this universe?
	I don't know, but you're the Green Goblin.
	What?
	Damn it.
	I'm not even high.
	I don't know.
	It doesn't matter.
	Damn it.
	Give me your weed.
	Camelo's allegedly QAnon-motivated killing of Frank Cali gained a lot more attention this week, thanks in part to an article about the case in the New York Times by reporter Ali Watkins.
	In that article, she quoted Michael Perlin, a professor at New York Law School and specialist
	in mental disability law, about the precedent for insanity defenses.
	My people have a tradition of insanity defense.
	You've got a real, real tradition of insanity defense cases of very, very seriously mentally ill people who committed their crime out of some kind of utterly bizarre political motivation.
	I don't understand, how is this written by someone who's like, this feels like it's written by someone from the outside for sure.
	The outside in is the perspective here.
	Sounds like it's a phone interview and sometimes you're quite as articulate trying to sort of sum up your vast expertise.
	I don't know, have you ever enjoyed a phone call with me?
	They're incredible.
	You should try it sometime.
	I once read an interview that I had given for something and they quoted me word for word and I sounded like a complete buffoon because I have a little bit of a stutter and they were writing my repeating words and stuff in and repeating sentences so I get it.
	I feel bad for this guy.
	So, Mr. Peanut Butter Jelly, what was that you were telling us about?
	Your history as a frozen...
	Justice Garnett then said that he expects to receive mental evaluations from both the defense and the prosecution by January 3rd, 2020, and Camello is due back in court on January 10th.
	So, looking forward to that case.
	Camello is definitely strapped into one of those, like, experimental things that produce Marvel heroes eventually.
	He's just doing different stances.
	He's just fucking spinning around.
	He's just spinning around the centrifuge, like, fucking, you know, If Camelo doesn't end up as Manhattan with a Q engraved into the side of the moon.
	Glowing in his fucking forehead.
	For my second story, a QAnon follower documents his deteriorating marriage on Twitter.
	This is one of those really, we should be ashamed for covering this, because it's definitely one of those articles they put in newspapers so that people will read them.
	I don't know if they have a name for that.
	But I think this plays into this episode's theme.
	It is so funny.
	But the story was first noticed by Twitter user at Dapper Gander, who is a fantastic QAnon researcher and a highly recommended follow if you like this podcast.
	Yeah.
	So a QAnon follower on Twitter goes by the name The Awake Patriot.
	Come on!
	Sent out a series of tweets over the course of five months documenting how QAnon alienated him from his family and ruined his marriage.
	These were tweets that were sent in between his QAnon promotion.
	The Awake Patriot deleted his account shortly after Dapper Gander discovered it.
	I'm going to have Jake read eight of those tweets, and they stretch from July 8th at the earliest, and the most recent was published on December 3rd.
	And they sound like a parody, but the fact that he deleted his account and a few other reasons makes me pretty confident that this individual is sincere.
	Oh.
	My.
	God.
	I had not seen these.
	They start on July 8th?
	Yeah, it's a long ride down the drain.
	I'm a true patriot, and my wife is clearly not.
	CNN and MSNBC have totally reeked her brain.
	The worst part about the tragedies of today's world is that they're also very stupid, and so it's hard to maintain a straight face.
	My marriage is now on the rocks.
	It's horrible!
	Okay, second tweet.
	I think my wife must be brushing her teeth with fluoride toothpaste after breakfast, lunch, dinner, and every snack in between.
	It's done serious damage to her dot-connecting abilities.
	I wonder if fluoride in toothpaste was devised to turn your brain more liberal.
	Quite possible.
	So that's from July 8th to July 19th.
	So that's 11 days later.
	Okay.
	How about August 2nd?
	A mere, what, like 12 days after that?
	Well, that's exactly what I do.
	The TV brainwashing is truly criminal.
	I feel that it's totally ruined my wife and daughter.
	Oh my God.
	Ruined my daughter.
	My son always hated TV and is so well adjusted for not watching.
	My household could be used as a test site for the impact of mind control.
	Dead serious.
	Seven days after that?
	The three biggest mistakes in my life.
	Telling my wife about Q, Q Plus, and JFK Jr.
	My marriage is teetering and the movie needs to end.
	What?
	This is so bad.
	Okay, so then fast forward a couple of months to October 14th, 2019.
	It's the same for me.
	Vindication will be sweet.
	However, the family brainwashing damage is severe and could take years to reverse.
	I feel like a lost soul within my own family.
	It's been a very painful and difficult experience.
	Wife is a CNN-watching government worker and is clueless.
	Alright, uh, November 3rd, 2019.
	My wife went against me and had my daughter vaccinated with Gardasil.
	She has side effects.
	So mad!
	December 2nd.
	I have stood firm in my beliefs and not wavered.
	My immediate family thinks I'm nuts.
	My wife of 30 years, who is a liberal, is disgusted with me because of my conviction about Q and now wants a divorce.
	I'm serious.
	I've jeopardized everything, everything for not wavering in my belief.
	And a day after that, on December 3rd... Just...impossibly sad.
	Yeah.
	Help! Divorce and crazy uber-liberal wife. A problem is my belief in Q. Concerned I will
	get hurt in proceedings because of it. Any advice?"
	Just. Impossibly sad. God damn it.
	Yeah, it is. People need this like they need oxygen.
	Q is more important to this person than their family, as they very extensively document it.
	It's tragic and kind of funny, but mostly tragic.
	So when you opened this account in July, what were your intentions?
	My intentions?
	To have an outlet that's a little bit more free than my Travis View account.
	Yeah, Bizarro Travis is leaving his wife over QAnon.
	He's actually split into two separate people due to internal, you know, conflicts.
	It's just wild how much, you know, but you know what?
	Fuck it.
	It works because, like, I was about to say it's wild how much people, like, believe in and love and need Q. But I'm like, but they also believe in, love and need President Donald J. Otis Trump.
	Like, it's the same.
	They don't just like him.
	It's so weird.
	Giotis is now his middle name?
	I don't know.
	I love that.
	Donald the Giotis Trump!
	Donald God Emperor of the United States Trump!
	For my third story, QAnon gets sympathetic treatment in Fox News Prime Time.
	On Saturday, Fox News host Jesse Watters ran a short segment on QAnon Shut the fuck up!
	Get out of here!
	While Waters didn't explicitly endorse QAnon, it was obvious that he's sympathetic to it.
	To discuss the issue, he brought on the political science professor Joseph
	Ussinsky, who has actually done a lot of valuable research on conspiracy theories
	in America. While Waters didn't explicitly endorse QAnon, it was obvious
	that he's sympathetic to it. Waters described it as a conspiracy theory
	that's gathering momentum.
	Oh dear.
	So he jaked.
	He's 100% jaking.
	He jaked.
	He knows that the blood libel is going to turn people away, but Spygate?
	and on's kooky, religiously motivated bloodlust, Waters tried to tie it to the more popular
	and down to earth Spygate conspiracy theories.
	So he jaked. He's 100% jaking. He jaked. He knows he knows that the that the blood that
	the blood libel is gonna gonna turn people away. But Spygate I mean, nothing religious
	about about that. Listen, listen, what he does here, dismantling this network of satanic
	Listen what he does here.
	Dismantling this network of satanic pedophiles, which included Hillary Clinton and John Podesta,
	pedophiles, which included Hillary Clinton and John Podesta, and then sending these people
	and then sending these people off to Guantanamo, where they would be tried for their crimes
	and then summarily hung.
	And then when that happened, it would be called the Great Awakening.
	OK.
	And isn't it also about the Trump fight with the deep state in terms of the illegal surveillance
	of the campaign, the inside hit jobs that he sustained in terms of Comey and Mueller
	and Strzok and Page and all of that as well?
	Damn, dude.
	Jakey, what are you doing on Fox News?
	But isn't it also... Isn't it kind of also a chiller version?
	That I could be down with?
	That's exactly what he's doing.
	No, no, no, I know he's a bad guy, but doesn't he also take you out to fish dinner?
	Yeah.
	He was like, oh wait, he's getting into all the executions at Guantanamo Bay.
	He knows that's too crazy, even for Fox News.
	Let's pull it back a little bit, make it sound a little bit more sane.
	This is the mainstream media equivalent of when fucking Sather was on the panel being interviewed by, what's his name?
	The talk show host.
	And the one guy is like, yes.
	He was like, the earth is flat.
	And Sather looks over and he's like, Uh, we don't know that.
	Yeah.
	We don't know that for sure.
	Yeah, that's right.
	We don't know that quite yet.
	Sather's like, don't show your power level, you fucking buffoon!
	Put those vertical eyes back in their pockets.
	This is what happens when you're with untrained members of the Scion race.
	They do not know how to hide their power level yet.
	Wait, can we talk about this clip for a second because I think it's actually, I'm going to go ahead and say that it's a net negative that they're introducing QAnon on a platform where their audience might be inclined to believe it.
	Oh, this is absolutely a soft red pill.
	Yeah.
	Oh, you don't need to believe this stuff yet.
	And now you've seen Fox kind of go, hey, but isn't that a thing?
	Just asking questions.
	What I come away from watching that clip is a bunch of fucking, you know, like, you know, maybe not quite pilled yet, you know, Fox, Fox watchers who go, wait a
	minute, there's another source that's talking about SpyGate.
	I know about that.
	I want to know about more.
	And then, and then somebody, and then maybe, you know, one of their kids is
	like, I don't know, but didn't he also say like, there were like hangings and
	stuff and they were like, well, we'll get to that later, like.
	This is a crocodile mile right into QAnon!
	Yes, and is that why you're smiling?
	It gets worse because Waters also normalized QAnon by saying that he did the segment because one of his good friends is a Q guy.
	The reason I'm doing this segment is because one of my good friends, he's a Q guy, and he's always telling me, Q says this, Q says this, you gotta look into this, Epstein and everything, and it's all connected, and I thought we'd look into it, so that's what we're doing here.
	I thought we'd look into this!
	No, first of all, a Q without followers is determining Fox News programming.
	Oh my god!
	This is the Burn Spy, but for Fox News.
	Yeah, this is fucking MateGate for us.
	Yeah, it's our mate gate.
	This is our mate gate.
	Look, one of my buddies, he's a cute guy.
	That's like being, oh my god, that's like being, one of my buddies, yeah, he's got a melted brain.
	Jake has now torn off his t-shirt, like Hulk Hogan, he's sweating, his chest is strong.
	Yeah, one of my buddies, he's a serial killer, and he wanted to know if this show, Making a Murderer, you know, I thought I'd look into it for him.
	Like, doesn't it feel kind of good when you kill?
	Just asking questions.
	Oh, man.
	I mean, the QAnon community, they loved this interview.
	Of course.
	They loved this segment.
	Of course.
	Q hyped it up in the Q drop even before it aired.
	Praying Medic gave Waters credit for pushing back against Professor Yuziski.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	What do you mean, pushing back against?
	Wait, who supported it before it aired?
	How does that work?
	Oh, basically, Jesse Waters.
	He had a promo on Twitter.
	It says, hey, coming up tonight, we're going to be talking about QAnon.
	And then after that tweet, Q had a Q drop.
	Basically, basically hyping it up.
	There's not even a question here.
	OK, so Waters is pilled.
	Waters is pilled now.
	He's been quoted in a drop.
	Yeah, and they have a guy coming on who's like a credible source.
	Like, hey, could I ask you a few reasonable questions?
	Oh, it's interesting that you say that anyways, but isn't there also this?
	Anyways, we're moving to advertisers.
	Yeah, isn't there this also kind of more mainstream interpretation of it that lots of our viewers could get involved with?
	Could actually, yeah, be excited about it.
	But here's the craziest part.
	On the exact same show, right before that segment, they had on Sidney Powell, who is Michael Flynn's red-pilled, QAnon-pushing lawyer, to talk about the Flynn case.
	And then after the segment, they talk about Epstein.
	Dude, so they're just building a red pill machine.
	Let's go, QAnon, baby.
	This is the first time I've seen Fox do this.
	Travis, it's just the beginning!
	Why did you just say that, Travis?
	Why did you just look at me like that and say that?
	It's good.
	It's not good!
	Because this is what's been happening.
	QAnon has been making inroads into the mainstream night, little by little by little by little, and this is just another example of that.
	It's going to keep happening.
	He loves it.
	He is absolutely erect.
	The comfort in which Waters says, ah, my buddy, he's a Q guy.
	It's a normal, fine thing.
	Everyone has one, right?
	Yeah, right.
	It is like that.
	It's a bit like having an MKUltra friend in left-wing circles where it's like, yeah, it's true, right?
	Haha.
	More or less.
	Gotta talk to the right people.
	The other thing is when the professor is like, well, yes, and they will be marched to the gallows and summarily hung.
	It's like, it's not even that you can be like, oh, well, no, that's an exaggerated thing.
	What it's really about, it's like, isn't it also because it is that too.
	He's not even saying that's an unreasonable part of it.
	He's saying, isn't there also like, hey, didn't you leave out other cool stuff?
	Yeah.
	Make sure you touch on all of the cool talking points.
	That's the problem with the marketplace of reality is you can have the debunker on the show and he will do the redpilling job if you contextualize it properly.
	Travis, one day you could redpill people, I believe.
	I'm sure I've redpilled a few people already.
	In this segment there is no mention of Anthony Comello, for example, or Matthew Wright, who's facing terrorism charges for actions motivated by his QAnon belief.
	There's no mention of the families hurt by QAnon.
	There's no mention of the FBI intelligence bulletin that warned about QAnon as a threat of domestic extremism.
	So none of the negative stuff, really, was mentioned in this segment.
	And why would you?
	That's not the fun stuff.
	Yeah, that's not fun.
	Plus he doesn't want to embarrass his buddy, a Q guy.
	We know from hanging out with Jake how this is all going to go.
	They're going to take the parts that they don't like, leave them aside, enjoy the story of the rest.
	A cafeteria QAnon follower.
	Exactly.
	I mean, even if it's just kind of like a bento box style, you don't have to eat everything there.
	There you go.
	You just take what you want, leave the rest.
	Yeah, you just pick.
	Everything tastes good with soy sauce.
	A nice Ben Quo box.
	Oh, wow.
	And one more thing, I just want to mention that, yes, the Inspector General's report about FISA abuse is expected to drop tomorrow.
	Which means that probably it might drop before this episode goes out.
	Right, right.
	The day that this episode airs.
	So we don't know anything.
	We're just virgins.
	Yeah.
	We're about to find out, Spygate, which is what Jake thinks.
	All the reports are saying that it's more of the same.
	Basically, Horowitz is going to criticize the FBI for missteps.
	There might be some low-level employees who did bad stuff.
	But Jake still looks so excited.
	He has that little...
	Look at that look in his eyes.
	He's like, yeah, okay, maybe it won't be, but maybe it will be.
	It's like he's playing a scratch card.
	He's playing a scratch card.
	He's like, yeah, I probably won't win, but if I do- I know exactly, I can tell you, even having not seen the report, I can tell you exactly what's going to happen.
	In fact, I'll bet you- I could tell you what you're going to tell me because you're right every time for this one.
	I know.
	Both sides will interpret it exactly opposite to each other.
	And one side will be like, this proves everything, the other side will be like, it's a nothing burger, and we all walk away from it stupider.
	Yeah, and everybody will forget about it, but future stories and future facts will be built on the opinions, on the interpretation of what it was, just like the Mueller Report.
	We're caught in the the fucking we're we are all hypebeast and these are our
	supreme drops. Yeah. These are wait for them. And we're like, hey, they rule. They don't
	rule whatever you're lining up for them and you buy. This is a this is a supreme drop,
	actually, because I mean, in a perfect world, people would be if you know, the OIG comes out, he goes,
	Look, they had every in and it's not even a misinterpreted, you know, it's not an interpretation
	of language. And he's like, no, the FBI had every reason to believe that Russia had
	compromised the campaign. And like, yes they followed protocol they fall
	Yeah, there was a couple mistakes, low-level mistakes made along the way, but they followed protocol.
	That's what will happen, by the way, for sure.
	Q really, I mean, they're gonna have to fucking really talk themselves out of it because Q and Q followers and the Spygate pundits have been playing this thing up for the better part of a year.
	You're talking about people who two years ago thought Hillary was an ankle...
	monitors but I'm even talking about to be hung I'm talking about even more
	mainstream like more mainstream like Spygate plotters like the Seth
	Abramsons of the right like they like it'll be really interesting to see how
	of the Jake Rocketansky yeah I just love I love when source material drops
	because it's it's funny to see how like the the two to like pools of rats scurry
	So I guess next week we'll see Jake entirely clad in the latest OIG swag and we can take a look and say hey.
	Full OIG sweatsuit.
	Better than the last flap rim cap.
	Yeah.
	Full OIG sweatsuit.
	Yeah.
	I look forward to it.
	Me too.
	I look forward to throwing tomatoes at you.
	Fine.
	Heh heh heh heh.
	Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow!
	Okay, okay.
	So we have the interview coming up, or?
	Yes, yes, we have the interview coming up.
	But before, we have to wait for him to call in.
	Before we do that, actually, I want to talk to you guys about something.
	Could you turn off the recorder there, Julian?
	Yeah, whatever.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I'll leave it out.
	Oh yeah, is it off?
	I think so, yeah.
	Okay, cool.
	So basically, I think we're ready to go into phase two on this podcast.
	We built up quite an audience, they're very enthusiastic.
	We need to start employing some mind control techniques on our audience to make them really loyal and sort of really get in their heads so that they're basically brainwashed though.
	Group vote on that.
	I'll say yeah, dude.
	I've been saying this for absolutely.
	I'll do three days.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Yeah, absolutely three days.
	Yeah, I think that makes sense I'm saying this from the beginning.
	This is why I wanted to start the show in the first place.
	Yeah, absolutely So I think that obviously we should I nominate Jake as our cult leader.
	I feel like yeah gravitate towards him Yeah, I think I like him more he does we can get you some some colorful robes You know you cult leaders need to be a little bit flamboyant Oh yeah, and I want big glasses too, like Jim Jones had.
	A nice car?
	You have to leave buildings through the back?
	That's neither here nor there.
	A car's fine.
	I just want the robes, the glasses.
	I want the bodyguard.
	Well, Travis, the good news is that he's not going to cost much.
	All right, perfect.
	So yeah, I've been I've been I've been researching the kind of techniques that like cult leaders use So let's just do a little bit brainstorming to think how we can use them to build our cult So I'm gonna focus on techniques described by a psychiatrist Robert J Lifton in his book thought reform and the psychology of totalism and Very good.
	So in that book he lays out eight thought reform techniques.
	That's view control, mystical manipulation, demand for purity, confession, sacred science, loading the language, doctrine over person, and dispensing of existence.
	Jake, I think Travis is broken.
	He's just spewing word salad.
	It sounds like word salad, but these are these really effective techniques to really fuck with a person's head.
	And this sounds like stuff like- Okay, as long as it allows us to manipulate our listeners.
	I'm not the smartest dude in the world, but, like, these things, like, sound like tools that I could use.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So, like, it kind of already, some of it aligns with my sort of, like, natural world belief.
	Oh, yeah.
	So the first one, milieu control.
	So this involves the control of information and communication within the environment and ultimately within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
	I've already got this prepped up with the Discord.
	Perfect.
	The Discord is absolutely on its way with this.
	We have people who think they're mods, for example.
	Oh, wow.
	I've told them that they're responsible for certain things.
	They fell for that?
	Yeah, they're in Coppoland.
	They're absolutely going to support us.
	Absolutely.
	Perfect.
	So, yeah, we need to start telling people to listen to no other podcast before us.
	That's important.
	Yeah, we have to ban all mentions of other podcasts.
	Exactly.
	So no Choppo, you're out.
	No Truanon, none of that.
	No, can't listen to that.
	I don't listen to any of those other ones anyways.
	All right, perfect.
	I just listened to my sections from this.
	I don't even listen to your guys' sections.
	You've never heard me speak, actually.
	I've never heard you speak, except in real life, which is... Blackout.
	Which is growing troublesome.
	Maybe I'll have to...
	All right, so change in what wait wait wait are my no.
	No.
	I'm close.
	I'm in the close circle Are you three even if you're the leader Jake you have to be kind to ya?
	Yeah?
	Yeah?
	We are we're we're in we like we we determine who don't access baby.
	Don't do this to me He's not even fucking ascended to the throne.
	He's already threatening me.
	No.
	It's good Travis.
	We'll keep in line.
	We'll keep in line so All right, the second mind control technique, that's mystical manipulation.
	So this involves... That I'm good at.
	Yeah, the manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but is actually planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or something like that.
	So, I think that we could talk about, I think there was one episode before Epstein even died, where we speculated, like, what happens if Epstein died.
	We can say that we actually predicted that Epstein was going to die.
	So, it's us divining.
	So, we can just take happenstance, random events, and saying, that's us prophesying the future.
	Well, we did.
	We did.
	We did prophesize it.
	Should we put Jake in one of those Zoltar glass cases?
	This is perfect.
	I don't do well in- In enclosed spaces.
	I don't know, man.
	Once you're strapped in.
	I... just put me in a basement.
	Okay.
	This is your Oracle of Delphi, like, amphitheater?
	Lots of... Can we have, like, a gaming component into it?
	Where, like, the leader... He's already bored and wants video games!
	Fuck you!
	Fucking shit!
	What a shit!
	Shit called leadership!
	Fuck!
	Goddamn!
	Pathetic!
	Pathetic!
	Go on.
	Alright, let's go on.
	So the next of my control technique is called demand for purity So this is the world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection So that's Jake Jake.
	We need to sort of like you are sort of the ideal human being and You're perfect, you are pure, and anyone who falls short of what you are is just not as good.
	So how do we shame people for failing to live up to your standards?
	This is the real question.
	I think what we should do is, because it's representative of a journey unfinished, So I think what we should do is if they demonstrate an inability to sort of live up to my aura, I think they have to go into my Xbox backlog and beat all my unfinished games.
	Get my gamerscore.
	And that's to punish them for not showing the quality you do, which is the inability to play a game for longer than 32 minutes.
	I see where you're going.
	Here's the brilliance.
	The games are broken.
	What?
	They'll never be able to be finished.
	They'll be sort of paying tribute just by kneeling in front of the glowing screen with the controller in their hands.
	But they'll never ever be able to finish what they're doing so they'll be caught perpetually until their brains Break yeah to be caught in a cycle of shame, so they feel just just subservient to you and weak all the time That's perfect.
	Yeah, we'll call it the steam library Cycle of shame and I will sit closely nearby yelling insults and Occasionally I'll I will be complimentary.
	Just enough.
	Oh, you're not going to clear the fog of war in the bottom left of the map?
	Just enough to... just enough to keep them going.
	Oh, you sure it's okay to leave that piece of loot in that specific guard tower?
	Why do you have items in your inventory that could be sold for gold?
	All right, the next mind control technique is confession.
	So this is where sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group.
	So we need to, so we need to... Listeners stories.
	Exactly.
	We're already doing it.
	We're already doing it.
	So our job will be to force people or followers to confess how they're failing to live up
	to Jake's standards and then they have to basically talk about their shortcomings and
	their failings and there can't be an interior life, they can't have any sort of private
	thoughts or anything like that.
	So if they're for example incapable of building deep friendships within moments with anybody
	in the service industry, that's failing.
	Jake is friends with anybody, any establishment he walks into and he thanks them heartily
	for any meal they for example prepare for him.
	Here's a concern.
	We can talk about how much they've tipped, for example.
	Yes, if you've tipped badly or if you've ever been impolite to someone in the service industry, then you have profoundly failed at being the best Jake you can.
	This is perfect.
	Slight concern.
	My standards are not that high.
	Are we worried that people will be able to achieve delightment quickly?
	Don't you think it's kind of easy to live in a one-bedroom apartment?
	You in your life are the standards don't you understand?
	Yeah, don't don't get like yeah Don't you think it's that it's kind of easy to live in a
	one-bedroom?
	Apartment there we go punish anyone for living in a half-bedroom apartment or a two-bedroom apartment
	If they live in a giant house, they're failing to live up to your standards.
	Oh, yeah.
	No, no, you're figured out.
	First of all, you're an aesthetic.
	Your standard is pulling back on worldly goods.
	I agree, I agree.
	Yes, you just need a small amount of space and a portal to the internet.
	Right, so high-speed internet and almost no space.
	No, not a lot of space.
	High-speed internet.
	One dog one dog One dog underground bunker Hmm.
	Yeah, I see it.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right The next mind control technique is called sacred science and this is where the group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate truth beyond all questioning or Dispute truth is not to be found outside of the group, you know, like okay.
	So for example, like what was your favorite video game right now?
	What are you playing a lot?
	NBA 2K.
	NBA 2K is the best video game ever made and anyone who disagrees cannot be part of this podcast.
	So we need to make it very very strict.
	That's good because I also need more people to play with online so if everybody in the cult is trying to play and get better.
	Could our cult slogan be boom shaka laka he's on fire?
	No, that's from an older game, NBA Jam.
	That's from NBA 2K.
	Okay.
	Which isn't as... They invented it this year, dude.
	Which isn't as... This is the latest.
	Simulation.
	No, it's not as good.
	No, for this, the slogan would probably be something like... Go ahead.
	Let's go.
	Let's go, let's go.
	Okay, that's perfect.
	Speaking of which, the next mind control technique is called loading the language.
	So this is when the group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so often that the outside world just doesn't even understand them.
	That's already finished for us!
	I think it's comprehensible.
	Have you ever thought of a new listener trying to jump into this?
	Yeah, it's good.
	Total nightmare.
	We need to use, like, thought terminating cliches.
	Like, QAnon does this where they say, all for a LARP.
	When they say, whenever anyone criticizes, oh, all for a LARP, that just ends all meaningful criticism.
	So we need to figure out, I mean, let's go.
	We can even turn, may the deep dish bless you and keep you.
	Whenever anyone criticizes QAnon and Anonymous, we can just say, just say, may the Deep Dish bless you and keep you, and that ends all criticism.
	When one of our followers inevitably dies a horrible death and we feed on their flesh, we could say, may the Deep Dish bless him and keep him.
	Perfect.
	Let's go works too, because if somebody comes to criticize, you know, anybody in the group or any of our ideologies, you know, we can just be like, let's go.
	And almost inviting, hey, fine, we're inviting you, let's go, let's see what you've got.
	You know, it almost challenges them right off the bat, which will make them retreat and believe instead.
	You just going over let's go in that white guy voice is somehow worse than the semi-racist, I hate it all so much.
	Is this segment gonna end soon?
	What?
	There's no color in let's go.
	That's a phrase that people get when they're playing online basketball and they get excited.
	When a young urban basketball player says let's go, what does he mean?
	But nobody says it like that.
	Let's go.
	You say let's go.
	Let's go.
	No, nobody says it like that.
	You're excommunicated from the fucking cult.
	Our cult's breaking up already.
	I'm gonna put you in a vat of acid.
	Hello listeners, let's go.
	Let the games begin!
	We'll iron that out later.
	Let's move on.
	So the next mind control technique is doctrine over person.
	So the member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
	Yeah.
	So basically, no one's allowed to contradict us ever.
	If they ever hear something on the podcast that seems like it's wrong, actually they're wrong.
	I've already been applying this online constantly.
	Perfect.
	We're already on board.
	Anyone who writes in fucking deleted blocks, shut up.
	Good.
	Perfect.
	So the last one.
	This one's kind of a heavy one.
	The last mind control technique is called dispensing of existence.
	So the group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not.
	It's not necessarily literal, but basically means that those in the outside world are not saved.
	And they're unenlightened and they're unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology
	So we need to we need to basically, uh force people to get new listeners to our podcast or else they're x person
	Basically, they are no longer part of the q anon anonymous community
	We need to really crack down make sure that they're getting those recruitment numbers up
	up.
	Really stressful for them, but it's good.
	We need to put our listeners under a lot of stress.
	It'll be very painful.
	They're disgusting.
	But it will.
	It'll be, I mean, they'll swell this hole.
	Don't worry.
	They're truly, truly disgusting.
	I'm very low IQ.
	I have full confidence that you, my two lieutenants, will carry out my every will.
	Meanwhile, I will find a comfortable place to sit.
	Okay.
	And get fat.
	Perfect.
	And be brought food.
	I feel like Jake is definitely going to be a shrine-style leader, where you just lay stuff around him.
	He may or may not be awake at any given time.
	We'll cart him around.
	He'll be surrounded by rotting fruit at all times.
	Yes, I want to be welded to a chaise lounge.
	A chaise longue.
	A chaise lounge.
	And just fed grapes and wheeled around to expensive parties.
	He's going to be so easy to blow as Travis when we're finally done with him.
	He's going to get Brutus.
	I'm going to absolutely fill him with steps.
	All I ask is just do it when I'm unsuspecting.
	Just a bullet to the back of the head.
	Well, how about we do it this way?
	If you ever become suspecting, just let us know, because in the meantime, I'm pretty sure you're mostly floating through the world unsuspecting.
	Yeah, I'm just gonna float.
	Jake was voted most likely to die of a car bomb in a Scorsese movie by his high school class.
	I think it's settled.
	We just need to start to employing these techniques and just sort of really manipulating, brainwashing our Rube listeners.
	Okay, cool.
	So perfect.
	Hey, is that recording light still on?
	No, I don't think so.
	You don't think so?
	No, it should be fine.
	I mean, honestly, if it does show up, I'll just edit it out.
	Okay, good.
	It would be really, really bad if our plan to build a cult got out.
	Yeah.
	I mean, this was the smartest segment we've ever done, so I'm sure if they do ever hear it, they'll just black out.
	Perfect.
	Because it's way too smart for our incredibly low IQ listeners.
	Well, yeah, and if you guys want, I could probably use some of my leader powers to telepathically brainwash anybody who might have... I've kind of like... I can do that sort of thing that Professor X can do, but without a machine.
	Yes.
	So I can just kind of like close my eyes and like...
	It's your Ubisoft game library instead of any memories or knowledge.
	It's just all around you.
	I can close my eyes and hit select.
	And see a map with way too many markers.
	I'm never gonna clear all these notifications.
	Lots of markers and percentages.
	Very stressful.
	I'm seeing it right now.
	I'm gonna delete your UI.
	take down his HUD.
	Hasan Hassan is a mental health professional who has been helping people leave destructive
	cults since 1976.
	Prior to that, he was a member of Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church before he was deprogrammed by his family.
	He is currently the director of the counseling organization the Freedom of Mind Resource Center.
	Stephen has authored the books Combating Cult Mind Control, Releasing the Bonds, and Freedom of Mind, Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults, and Beliefs.
	Most recently, he's the author of The Cult of Trump, a leading cult expert explains how the president uses mind control.
	Stephen, thank you so much for coming on the show.
	Thanks for having me on.
	So you are someone who comes from the subject matter, I think, from a unique perspective.
	Like I mentioned, you were once a member of the Unification Church.
	So what was it like to come to the realization that other people were controlling your mind in a really destructive way?
	So, I think it's important for your listeners to understand that I was, like, a fanatical member, and I was even made a leader of the cult, and I was in for two and a half years, dropped out of college, quit my job, donated my bank account, and believed that Moon was the messiah, that we needed to create a theocracy to rule the world, that the democracy was satanic, I even fasted for Nixon during the Watergate crisis.
	What I think will be very interesting to your listeners is my background in knowledge about MKUltra, the CIA, and mind control.
	Hell yes!
	Yes, and so very briefly what I'd like to say, and the answer to your question is I was in a near fatal van crash and fell asleep at the wheel.
	And two weeks later I was being deprogrammed.
	And after five days of saying I wasn't brainwashed and I wasn't under mind control, when my mind started opening up and I started realizing that Moon was a liar and therefore I couldn't trust him.
	I started to cry and I cried for several hours.
	It was very, very, Very hard to wake up to the realization that everything that I had been doing for two and a half years, all the people I had recruited, all the political demonstrations that I had been involved with was to help a right wing fascist group to try to take over the United States and the world.
	But I really want to just go back and just give a little background.
	And I'm hoping some of your listeners, especially people who may be listening, who have believed in QAnon or, or, or flirted with QAnon, they'll pick up combating cult mind control.
	And in particular read chapter two, um, But essentially, when I got out of the cult, I was immediately contacted by a congressional subcommittee investigation into Korean CIA activities in the US.
	And I had brought out with me a whole stash of secret internal documents of Moon's speeches.
	And so I was a valued resource for the committee.
	And what I learned is that the CIA set up the Korean CIA Uh, and they were very concerned about instability in South Korea due to North Korean brainwashing and some somebody in the intelligence department thought, let's start our own group and do brainwashing in South Korea to keep people in line.
	And so the founder of the Korean CIA was quoted in this investigation as having organized and utilized the Unification Church for use as a political tool, unquote.
	And it was only later that they brought the Moonis to the United States onto college campuses when people were protesting the Vietnam War movement.
	And I was recruited in February of 74 Queens College by women who were flirting with me right after my girlfriend dumped me.
	And they lied their faces off.
	They said that they were students, that they were part of a student movement, that they weren't religious.
	And, um, and, and that's a very important point that I want to emphasize for your listeners is that destructive cults always use deception.
	They've used deception by withholding vital information, distorting it or outright lying.
	And so the whole notion of, uh, informed consent goes out the window when thinking about involvement with any type of destructive cult.
	And my, my whole position having gotten out of the moon, he's in 76 and dedicated My life now of over 43 years to learning about social psychology, social influence, mind control, brainwashing, hypnosis is that I believe every citizen needs to learn what this material is in order to protect themselves, but also to understand
	Uh, what's happening right now in politics around the world, because authoritarian cult leader types like Vladimir Putin are experts at brainwashing.
	They know exactly the kinds of buttons that need to get pushed and in what way, and especially in this digital age.
	And what I just going to jump ahead, if you don't mind, then say.
	I've just really started researching QAnon this past year and in the last few months urgently because I really want to understand how so many intelligent, educated people are buying into this.
	Um, and, um, that they need to understand mind control, uh, ethical influence versus destructive mind control influence.
	And that's what my whole work is about, is freedom of mind.
	I say it's your mind, only you should control it.
	Yeah, when we talked before, you mentioned Martin Geddes, who is sort of a QAnon follower from the UK, who's built quite a large audience, and he is obviously a very bright person, but he has fallen in very, very deeply into this.
	Yeah, and I've talked with Martin.
	I really like Martin.
	Martin's a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, which is a cult group that I've helped many, many people out of over the decades.
	And he's also come out as gay, which of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses and a lot of the cults and the cult of Trump are anti-gay rights and homophobic.
	And my last contact with Martin, he was absolutely sure the report that I believe is going to be released tomorrow was going to show incredible corruption into the investigation into Trump and expose a whole host of information that apparently isn't going to be coming.
	And what is critical for everybody to understand is that we all need to do reality testing.
	And in fact, I've become friends with a neuroscientist named Moran Cerf, M-O-R-A-N C-E-R-F.
	It's a neuroscientist who's done a number of TEDx talks.
	And he basically says, don't trust what you think.
	Like you need strategies to reality test these days, especially if you're spending a lot of time online.
	So it's, it's absolutely vital.
	Um, and, and I write in the cult of Trump about fourth generation warfare, which is essentially PSY ops program aimed at delegitimizing leaders, institutions, science, even truth itself.
	Saying that truth is relative or you believe your own reality, which is nonsense.
	I despise that.
	Yeah.
	Well, Scientology teaches that and a lot of other cults teach, you know, you, you create your own reality.
	Well, if you walk off of a 10 story building, gravity is going to teach you otherwise.
	I was really interested in reading your latest book.
	You kind of talk about like, um, Cult isn't what is is or is not a cult isn't kind of like a black-and-white thing because I think when regular people talk about cults they often make like a distinction between what organizations are a cult and which ones aren't and kind of the implication is that Like any group that has a charismatic leader in devote in the devoted following is like bad destructive But you say it's not quite that simple So like how do you make a distinction between like a positive group influence and like negative group influence?
	Yeah, it's a really important question And I do believe that people can be in positive, benign, productive cults.
	And I would say I'm in the scuba diving cult because I love to go diving.
	I wrote a blog about how I'm in the TEDx cult when I gave my first TEDx talk.
	But the point is informed consent, knowing what you're getting involved with.
	Uh, encouragement to think critically, encouragement to use your conscience, encouragement to read whatever you want to read and, and, uh, uh, talk to whoever you want to talk to and freedom to leave without fear or coercion.
	And if you go to freedom of mind.com, which is my website and look up the influence continuum, you'll see a continuum.
	It's not a binary.
	But kind of themes between ethical and unethical influence.
	And of course, my work is about destructive cults, where it typically does have an authoritarian leader, or at least the totalist ideology, which is very black and white, all or nothing good versus evil in its orientation.
	But they want obedience and dependency.
	And one one question anybody can ask is, Um, in terms of reality testing is if I decide to not believe anymore, you know, can I imagine a happy, healthy future?
	Because the most destructive cults put phobias in people's minds that the world is going to fall apart.
	We're going to be invaded by aliens.
	We're going to have satanic entities or demons attacking us.
	In other words.
	In my book Freedom of Mind, I have four pages single spaced of the most common phobias I've encountered with different mind control cults.
	And I have a formula that I'd like to share with your listeners for anyone who wants to seriously reality test.
	And the first step in the formula is to take a break from reading whatever you're reading.
	If you're involved with QAnon, Time out, like don't read anything.
	Don't talk to anybody.
	Just give your brain a vacation.
	Maybe it's going to require turning off your phone and not going on the internet and going on a, on a backpacking trip or something, but just give your time, your mind time to, to, to not be addicted constantly and sleep.
	Eat an exercise so that step one step two is learning about mind control the work that helped wake me up from the movies was the work of robert j lifton.
	Who wrote the seminal book for reform in the psychology of totalism a study of brainwashing in china the book came out in nineteen sixty one.
	And it has eight criteria that any, any group that's doing these eight things is, is doing thought reform.
	That was his favorite term as opposed to brainwashing.
	Um, I, I prefer the term mind control, but it's all describing the same elephants in different ways.
	If I can use that, that metaphor.
	But, but learn about Lifton's model.
	And I have a model based on his model and Margaret Singers and Lewis West and Edgar Schein's models that I call the bite model, which is also on freedom of mind.com.
	And the B stands for behavior control.
	I stands for information control.
	T stands for thought control and E stands for emotional control.
	And on my website, you can find a long list under each one of those four variables, these four components rather, that intersect and will, if it's a destructive mind control group, move an analysis to the destructive end of the continuum.
	Uh, for example, sleep deprivation or thought stopping or loaded language like fake news or enemy of the people that shut down critical thinking.
	Um, or phobias, for example.
	Um, so take a time out, uh, study models of mind control.
	And then the next step is to deliberately seek out critics and former members and really listen to what they have to say as if maybe there's some substance there.
	Now, the key with mind control cults is that you're programmed to disbelieve anyone who's critical.
	So they're always putting down anyone who says negative things.
	Yeah, exactly.
	So deliberately seek out the most credible critics and former members and hear from them.
	What, what are the points that they think are most important?
	And for me, I invite all of your listeners to get a copy of Combating Cult Mind Control.
	If you don't want to buy it, go to a library.
	If your library doesn't have it, have them order it.
	It's also on audio.
	I hired someone to read it.
	And really allow your mind to understand, yes, there really are mind control cults, like the Munis, Scientology, the Hare Krishna, the Way, Rajneesh, Nexium, I can go on and on about different call.
	And they're not all religious, by the way, there are political cults like LaRouche, which I write about in the cult of Trump.
	So I just want to go back and say, take time out, study models of mind control, seek out deliberately credible, critical information, then honestly, go back in time before you ever heard of the group or the leader.
	And re reconnect with who you were then and what you thought you were getting involved with initially.
	Like it's very important to reality test.
	What did I think I was getting into?
	Who did, you know, when I voted for Trump, what, what did I believe about him?
	Right.
	So on a self-reflection and evaluation based on the bite model, Lifton's report, the critical information.
	Uh, and learning about other cults and then you'll be in a position to then say, yup, there's, there's some really big problems here or nope, you know, clean bill of health.
	In my opinion, what's going on, uh, involves, uh, a conspiracy of sorts, but it's not a conspiracy theory.
	It's based on facts and, and evidence.
	For example, I write in the cult of Trump about a cult group that's been around for 80 years, started by Abram, Abram Varides called the family.
	And Michael Pence was recruited into this cult by Chuck Colson of Watergate.
	And he brought into the, into the white house, other people from the family.
	And this was a group that works with Democrats, Republicans, dictators, Muslims, atheists.
	But they want to, they're basically elitists who have a version of Christianity that they want to use for money, power, and possibly for sex.
	And it's this group connected with other groups like Opus Dei, which William Barr apparently is involved with, that has agendas, religious agendas, To undermine women's right to choose to undermine gay rights and to impose their version of what they think Christianity is supposed to be, which is, by the way, opposite of the teachings of Jesus, who said, you know, as you do the least in my kingdom, you do to me.
	Or it's it's it's easier for, I think, a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven.
	They want elitist billionaire types.
	I'm curious, like, I know you said that you were just starting to study QAnon, but, like, how does it sort of compare to, like, other cults that you are sort of more familiar with, like in the cult of Trump you mentioned?
	You know like Branch Davidians or Scientology or like the Jim Jones's The People's Temple like is this is this is there something really kind of like new and unique about QAnon and its community or is it basically the same old thing but online?
	Well, the key thing I think is that it's online and I am old-school I'm 65 years old and I barely know how to tweet and And I don't understand, you know, all the stuff you guys are experts in.
	And that's been one of the failures of mine in terms of being able to research this group properly, to know where to go and where, you know, how to read, you know, the, the, the Q drops, et cetera.
	Right.
	Um, but I think it's critical to, for, for anybody who's interested in QAnon to study conspiracy theories.
	I love conspiracy theories.
	Yeah, that's why we're all here.
	And you need to be able to draw lines in the sand for yourself of, you know, at what point do you go, this is bogus.
	Like at what point do you say I'm done?
	I'm exiting.
	Um, a person that I've been speaking with who is a firm QAnon believer more or less said if, if there aren't a hundred thousand arrests, you know, in the coming year of 2020 before the election, You know, to expose the trafficking and the cabal, et cetera, then she'll be done and she'll know that that it's not real.
	Yeah, that's what they say.
	And and I said, we can wait because it's not going to happen.
	How do you reconcile?
	Because, you know, through working on the show and researching a lot of this, these conspiracy theories, you often do find a small I mean, you know, stuff with, you know, MKUltra, you know, there is, you know, this is a very popular conspiracy theory, but there is some truth to that.
	And to me, it seems, you know, as somebody who, you know, was interested in QAnon and open and sympathetic to it, you know, at the very beginning, before I think sort of, you know, fortunately for myself, Having friends around and and and naturally taking them
	those some of those steps and saying well Let me check in with myself like like is this really you
	know how much you know?
	How deep do you want to go into this thing?
	I mean it seems that the little kernels of truth within some of the conspiracies that fall under the QAnon umbrella
	They seem to keep people in and so how do you reconcile between?
	Saying well yes there there are there is some you can admit that there's some water to some of these you know
	Facts without saying well, then the whole thing must be true
	And I'm a hundred percent in, and I'm going to leave my family over this and, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
	No, exactly.
	You want to avoid binaries and, uh, I'm telling you, MKUltra existed.
	We have boxes and boxes of data that wasn't destroyed, even though they wanted to destroy it.
	There was a 1979 documentary by ABC that I believe is on YouTube about it that was very credible.
	I should say that I'm friends with Alan Scheflin, law professor emeritus at Santa Clara Law School, who wrote one of the earliest definitive books on MKUltra called The Mind Manipulators.
	So, I mean, it's something that I've studied, and I can tell you the CIA was very interested in mind control, and the CIA approached me as soon as I got out of the Moonies several different times through different people to recruit me.
	Uh, into into learning how to deprogram terrorists.
	That was the frame that they interest.
	They approached me on, um, hypnosis is real.
	Brainwashing is real.
	Mind control is real.
	Anyone who tells you it isn't is lying.
	Categorically.
	And if you take the time to study social psychology, Um, and I have, uh, something like 200 free videos on my YouTube site.
	I've been documenting stuff, doing interviews with people.
	Um, I've studied hypnosis since 1980.
	It is real.
	And one of the problems, and this is where, uh, Q and, and the, the Trump machine is correct.
	There are people in the intelligence industry that does not want the public to understand mind control exists that mentoring candidates can be manufactured.
	I was particularly interested in this particular passage from your book and it says in my experience telling a person that they are brainwashed that they are in a cult.
	Or that they are following a false god is doomed to fail.
	It puts them immediately on the defensive, confirms you are a threat, possibly an enemy, and reinforces their indoctrination.
	And I think that was really, really interesting because about once every two weeks or so, I get someone in my DMs who tells me that, listen, I have a father, a son, a loved one who has fallen into QAnon, and I don't know what to do, how to approach them, how to basically guide them out of this.
	You know, if you can't just come out and say you are, you are in a cult, if that's actually bad, what is like an actually productive way to tell someone that they are under some kind of malicious influence to sort of take that initial step to help them?
	Great question.
	And again, I've written several books on how to help loved ones.
	Freedom of Mind is the one I recommend.
	I have one chapter in The Cult of Trump about this.
	The bottom line is if i use myself in the moonies my family and my friends said you're in a cold you're being brainwashed you're not being yourself etc and i look at them and said i don't feel brainwashed i'm an intelligent person this makes sense to me.
	And they never went to investigate it they never like said look you're an intelligent person we respect you a lot.
	Help walk us through what it is you learned that made you believe what you believe.
	And if it's credible, I'll want to believe it too.
	Like if they had taken that tact with me, um, my life would have been very different.
	Let's, let's put it that way.
	Um, what I've learned is that the key approach is really explaining social psychology, social influence.
	And the easiest way to get through to someone is not a direct assault on their leader doctrine or group, but having rapport and trust with them and then talking about another group that they would agree is a cult and that's doing mind control.
	Stephen, I have just one more question for you before we let you go.
	And one thing that QAnon people often talk about, they obviously, they take exception to the accusation that they're in a cult.
	And they often respond by sarcastically saying that QAnon is the only cult that brainwashes people into thinking for themselves.
	So, like, how common is it for, like, people who are, like, under this mind control to feel like they're actually thinking freely and like everyone else is the brainwashed one?
	Oh, 100 percent!
	I don't know anyone in a mind control cult that thinks that they're under mind control.
	I suppose it's true.
	And anyone who buys a linguistics of I'm brainwashing you to think, you know, for yourself is ridiculous.
	You know, the whole notion of brainwashing was really about, about breaking us an identity down.
	Uh, confusion, sleep deprivation.
	And again, I've written books on the subject and I have lots of lectures that are for free that are on my website that anyone can go and listen to being able to ask questions and challenge and ask for proof.
	Like what can you prove do to prove to me this is real and really getting some, you know, specific lines in the sand.
	And I'll ask people that I'm working with.
	Um, if moon got up on stage, moon's now dead, by the way, his sons have gun factories and they are, are arming people for the conflict to come presumably.
	But if moon got up on stage and said, you know, I'd been seeing a psychiatrist and I realized now that I have a serious problem, I'm taking medication, but I realize I'm not the Messiah go home.
	Would you believe him?
	And Amuni would look at me and go, he would never say that.
	And I said, I understand, but what if he did?
	And you, and he meant it, what would you do?
	And for them, it's almost like you could see invisible smoke coming out of their ears.
	Because when you're in a mind control cult, you can't imagine life out of the cult and not having those belief systems.
	And, and the key is going back in time before you ever got into the cult and remembering like, who were you?
	What did you believe?
	What were your values?
	Who were your friends?
	Who are people that you liked and trusted?
	And, and for me, you were, you asked me the question about what's different about QAnon.
	We're living in a digital age where people can now be programmed remotely and they're carrying smartphones, which are constantly being Reinforcing their mindset.
	So in, in, in, in, in reality, people don't need to be in physical isolation anymore.
	They can be in psychological isolation now because of the, the, the, the cell phone being on all the time.
	Yeah.
	In fact, there are some people who they buy these Qdrop apps that basically notifies them right on their phone whenever there's a new Qdrop.
	So they're just plugged into the cult leader saying... Delete, delete, delete, delete them right away.
	You have to be in control of your mind.
	And a bunch of the tech giants, people have said, you know, this is not healthy for my own kids.
	I'm not letting my own kids have these.
	Why would you want to use them?
	If, if a tech giant person won't want to let their own kids have it, um, you need to be in control of your own mind.
	And if you're interested in religion, you need to understand the freedom of religion is based on freedom of mind, which means freedom of choice.
	The freedom to say, no, I don't choose to believe that.
	And honestly, a person has to look themselves in the mirror and be honest.
	Are you happier being involved or not?
	And if you go back in time in your mind before you heard about the cult leader or whatever, and remember what you thought you were getting involved with, Ask yourself the question, if I knew then what I know now, would I still join?
	Well, Stephen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
	I hope anyone who's like had a loved one followed to QAnon and wasn't quite sure what to do has received some sort of guidance on what the next steps are.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us.
	You have been listening to the QAnon Anonymous podcast.
	If you like the show, you can support us and get a second weekly episode for just five bucks a month.
	By the way, I just wanted to address, we've had a really great amount of people signing up, and that rules.
	I'm very happy, and I think we're all very grateful that this is becoming more and more of a viable option for all of us as a job that, yeah.
	That we actually do.
	Absolutely.
	And we actually like.
	I would love to, yeah, just reiterate how grateful I am for that.
	And yeah, and I mean, look, everybody, you're jumping on at a great time.
	QAnon was just endorsed by Fox News.
	We're ramping up to the election.
	We've got the OIG report dropping tomorrow, which is going to undoubtedly prove that SpyGate is real.
	We're getting, getting closer to my fellow Americans.
	The storm is upon us.
	Tweet from Trump.
	I know, I can't wait.
	We've already got the military, you know, tweeting, you know, the calm before the storm, you know.
	So yeah.
	Everything is ramping up at a nice speed.
	My belly is full.
	My cheeks are red.
	And so if you want to access to all of our premium episodes, which is, you know,
	every week we put out two episodes, one is paying, one is not, and they're just as good as each
	other. In fact, I would argue maybe our premiums are our best ones ever. So if you didn't
	like this one and you were like, what a crap episode. Don't worry, this is just an outlier.
	Trust that we're hiding the better ones. Might as well spend five bucks and then
	think about it later.
	You know, reconsider later.
	But yeah, you can go to patreon.com slash QAnon Anonymous and subscribe.
	Just five bucks a month.
	And that's, I guess, four episodes.
	So a dollar twenty five an episode.
	Son, I remember.
	$1.25, pal.
	I'm coming out of the booth.
	Oh God.
	All this quality stuff you could have twice as much of.
	Me referencing Adam Sandler CDs from 30 years ago.
	It's the top of the month.
	And you know what that means?
	We're going to thank all of our very special subscribers.
	The owls before which we prostrate ourselves.
	Our $20 mollux!
	And we have invited Q on to do these for us.
	I am delighted to be here.
	To give thanks to those who honor me.
	Aaron M.B.
	Allen G.
	Allie.
	Avin S. Benjamin J.W.
	Brandt F. Katelyn J. Chinchy.
	Chris M. Derek T. Freudian Faceplant.
	Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Alpertuis, my brother!
	Michelle, none dare call it ordinary.
	Excellent show.
	Peyton P, poker and politics.
	Sad gorkasm.
	And, uh, Q, maybe you could also read us our $10 mollux?
	Alex? Of course!
	Alan O, Anthony L, A.W., Bully Whiff, Cameron M, Chimera Boy, Chris S, Cody M, Corgi Mc
	S, Dave F, David C, Dylan W, Dylan Y, E-Mark S, Graham S, Holden D, Holden Dick is uh...
	Holden... Holden Dick!
	Bye.
	What?
	Yeah, you're Holden Dick, Q. I'm Holden my dick.
	Q doesn't have a dick.
	This is a space where a dick should be in two large balls.
	Jack R. James and Molly M. James O. Jamie.
	John S. Joseph G. Josh R. Katie K. Lettuce Jones.
	Liz M. Matthew B. McAfee's Hammock.
	Where I like to sit.
	And sometimes nap.
	Michael M.
	Nicholas P, Owen H, Owen H U, Q Loves Cake Farts, I do!
	QT, Rev's Little Cummies, Rob K, Ruben H, Ryan B, Sandra L, Sergeant Wolverine Lightning Bolt, my long lost brother I'll Smigs.
	Spencer D. Steven A.C.
	Sub-Penis.
	T-Diddy.
	That one with the boobs.
	What are boobs?
	You doesn't understand.
	Cult of Monotaur, Thug Special Olympian, Timothy M, Toon Army MIA, Trenton C, and Tua T. There was a lot of names.
	You're out of breath, too.
	Yeah.
	Are you going to make it through?
	Listener, until next week, may the deep dish bless you and keep Now, today's Auto-Tune.
	The number today I'd like to talk to you about is 69.
	And it turns out to be an important number for this little pocket calculator.
	Now 69, if we work out factorial 69, it turns out that this is the largest number, factorial number, that I can calculate on my pocket calculator here.
	69.
	And then we do shift.
	And what do I get for that?

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