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Nov. 26, 2025 - Dennis Prager Show
25:32
Are We on Stolen Land?
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It's a total coincidence, isn't it?
That this is the subject of Thanksgiving and Thanksgiving is coming tomorrow.
Now that I think of it, it is in a completely appropriate subject.
That's why it was released.
Oh, it was released this week for that reason.
Okay, can I take that back?
I think we should restart this hour.
That might have been the least perceptive comment of my 40-year career.
I am internationally embarrassed since my guest is in the Netherlands.
Anyway, so it is fitting.
Quite fitting.
Quite fitting.
This week's release at Prager U is given by Professor of Economic and Social History at Leiden University in the Netherlands, Jeff Finn F-Y-N-N, Paul, Finn-Paul.
And he gives the presentation.
It's this week's video at Prager U. Did Europe Destroy Native American Culture?
And given that it's Thanksgiving week, you know what?
It wouldn't hurt, or as they say where I grew up in Brooklyn, it wouldn't hype for you to actually play this five minutes.
They're all five minutes, our videos, at your Thanksgiving table.
It might be a fascinating conversation starter.
And kids, yeah, we'll run the first minute.
And the kids at the table would benefit immensely.
So here is the opening minute of the video up at Prager U. Again, did Europe destroy Native American culture?
Let's say Columbus and his flotilla of three small ships never made it to the Western Hemisphere.
Do we imagine he would have been the last explorer to head west from Europe looking for a new trade route to India?
Of course not.
Once the new world was discovered, the maritime European powers, England, the Netherlands, Spain, and Portugal, had a strong motivation to establish colonies.
If they didn't, they'd be at a competitive disadvantage to their rivals.
It's human nature to move toward new opportunities, often in frantic, haphazard ways.
Think of the California gold rush.
No one can be in a conference and said, How can we best extract gold from the American river without disturbing the natural beauty of the land?
No, masses of people rushed into the area at the first opportunity.
So it was with the discovery of the new world.
As soon as word got out that the world didn't end in an abyss somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, fishermen and traders sailed across the sea on their own in hopes of scoring a fortune.
Yes, their superior technology and firearms gave them an edge over Native Americans in a fight.
But who wanted a fight?
Most of these early adventurers did everything they could to avoid a confrontation.
Of course, no one anticipated that the natives would have almost no defense against the microbes that these adventurers brought with them.
It wasn't planned, and it couldn't have been prevented.
It just happened.
All right, we'll stop it there.
That's really, really riveting opening to such an important subject.
Professor Jeff Finn Paul, professor in the Netherlands.
By the way, a completely irrelevant question, but one that I'm curious about.
Is it true that the Dutch prefer to be stated as living in the Netherlands rather than Holland?
Yes, exactly.
Holland is one province in the Netherlands, so people from the other provinces get a little bit affronted, I suppose, if you just call it Holland.
Although most English speakers still say Holland all the time.
Well, I didn't know that.
Did you know it was a province in the Netherlands?
So that's sort of like calling America New York.
I suppose in some ways, yeah.
Or the UK, England, sort of like that.
Oh, okay.
Well, that's a better example, obviously, because it's more realistic.
All right, good.
I'm glad I asked.
That's how I learned.
Ask questions, you learn a lot.
So that's why I was kept saying Netherlands.
All right.
So you're a professor there.
You've also written a book, which we featured on this show, Not Stolen: The Truth About European Colonialism in the New World.
So let's begin with your opening notation, as it were, opening point in the video.
I would like to ask those who are antipathetic to Western civilization coming to the Americas, what do you think the right thing would have been?
That no humans migrate to North and South America?
What is their alternative?
Yeah.
And do you want me to pick that one up?
Yes, please, yes.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's just it.
If the Europeans hadn't arrived, sooner or later, the Chinese would have arrived, the Arabs would have arrived.
And certainly once the Europeans knew it was there, Europe was such a chaotic place politically that there was no power in Europe that could have prevented people from going over.
They would have just done it of their own accord.
As soon as they knew, as I say in the video, that there wasn't an abyss.
I mean, of course, people theorized that the world was round, but most sailors were still afraid to go across the Atlantic because they had no idea how big it was.
But as soon as Columbus discovered, yeah, you can get there in just a few weeks, that opened the floodgates.
And what power in Europe could have stopped them?
Basically, none.
That's another very important point.
It may have nothing to do with what we call colonialism.
It was human nature.
People go where it might be better.
I'm sorry?
Yep.
And it was just kind of chaotic as well.
Yes, exactly.
And you're so right.
Somebody else would have gone.
So the opposition to Europeans coming to America is absurd.
It would be like in some ways, oh, you moved from California to Florida or from Florida to California.
That's wrong.
It's almost analogous to that in the absurdity of it.
Human beings go where opportunity makes itself possible.
And remember, Muslims were going across the Indian Ocean and across Africa at the same time.
I mean, people from all over the world were expanding everywhere.
Yeah, why is Indonesia Muslim?
Exactly.
It's a perfect example.
Exactly.
And in the old world, Europeans didn't even spread disease in a way that caused people to die out.
So they thought when they went to the new world, it would be just like when they went to India, the Indians would still be there forever in large numbers.
Oh, that does raise an interesting question.
Did they have antibodies to smallpox?
Was smallpox the issue?
I don't remember which.
What was the big issue?
Yeah.
Well, basically, everybody in the old world was sharing the same disease pool, and that was 90% of the human population.
So everyone in Africa, Asia, and Europe eventually got all of each other's diseases.
So when Europeans went to Africa, they stayed a tiny minority because the Africans were immune to their diseases for the most part.
But in the new world, it was another story.
Did the Europeans realize at some point, wow, we've really spread a decimating disease here?
It was one of those things that took so long, and most of it happened far from the frontier, that there were Europeans by the 1740s, let's say, in Virginia saying, wow, there's way fewer Indians now than there were 100 years ago, but we really don't know why.
So it was one of those things.
There was just not the technology.
People weren't gathering intelligence beyond the frontier.
It just kind of happened, and it actually surprised everybody.
Now, let me ask you another question.
And I'm asking to learn.
Sometimes I ask in interviews questions, and I think I have my own answer, but I don't have an answer here.
How did the average European, or maybe average is not a good word, but how was there a European outlook on the question, are the indigenous peoples of the Americas as human as we are?
Well, once again, I mean, their main resort was, of course, the Judeo-Christian tradition.
So Christianity taught them that everyone on Earth was of the same race.
So it's called monogenism.
And the idea when they went over to the New World was they expected to find other humans who were essentially of the same race as them.
So that's one answer to the question.
And today we tend to think of skin color and that white people were thinking non-white people were inferior.
Well, back in the day, they thought that skin color only differed due to latitude.
So they for a long time thought that Indians in North America were the same color as Europeans.
mean it sounds kind of strange to us but that's what they thought because they were so convinced that latitude was the only determinant of of skin color and therefore race uh another really interesting by the way i don't think anybody knows that that That's fascinating.
Yeah, exactly.
This is one of the major things I like to bring out in my book.
One of the reasons why I was so happy to publish it because people don't have any clue about that.
Yeah, all right.
So let me tell everybody, stay with that thought.
Watch his video up this week at Prager U and read his book, Not Stolen.
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And this is riveting stuff, especially appropriate for Thanksgiving.
The video up this week at Prager U. Up one every week is did Europe destroy Native American culture?
And the presenter is a professor at Leiden University in the Netherlands, Jeff Finn Paul, author of Not Stolen the Truth about European colonization, colonialism in the New World.
Okay, so we were talking about a number of issues.
Did you want to continue on a point or should I ask you more questions?
Yeah, well, the other really interesting point about race that almost nobody understands today is that when they first arrived in the New World, Europeans were ready to see Native American chiefs and their daughters to consider them nobility.
And so European adventurers like Cortez and then the guy who married Pocahontas and in Quebec this was also going on married Native American chiefs' daughters thinking that this would raise their social status and make them noble.
So they thought most Europeans were inferior in social status to, for example, Pocahontas who is seen as a princess.
So if that's racism, you know, I mean, that's basically the opposite of racism.
They thought they were socially superior to most Europeans.
So I'm curious if you could speculate on this.
Could anything have been done which included the settling of North America by Europeans?
Could anything have been done to avoid the amount of death that the Indigenous people suffered?
Well, it really depends.
I mean, when you look at the numbers, by far, the number of Indigenous people, the majority of Indigenous people who died, over 95% actually died from disease.
So could that have been avoided?
Almost entirely no.
And then people say, oh, smallpox blankets.
So Europeans were intentionally spreading disease with blankets infected with smallpox.
And in fact, we found one instance of that in all of North American history.
So that's basically a lie.
It's completely fabricated, and yet everyone believes it.
So all those deaths by disease absolutely could not have been avoided.
And then the number who were massacred was basically a tiny fraction, less than one million.
And what about the argument of the breaking of treaties with Indians?
Yeah, well, I mean, that certainly did happen, but oftentimes it happened a couple of generations after the treaty was established and often after most of a tribe had either died out or moved on.
So a lot of the treaties that were broken were broken in much different situations, maybe a generation or more later than when they were first founded.
So even then there's nuance.
But yeah, I mean, that was definitely one of the things that could have been handled better a lot of the time.
How much intermarriage has there been, or was there then, really?
Today, I'm sure it's a non-issue, but how much intermarriage was there between European Americans and Native Americans?
Well, all you need to do is look at the population of Native Americans today, and the majority of them are mixed.
Even by the 19th century, most of the famous chiefs that we know about were either half European themselves or they were married to Europeans.
And then look at the population further south in Mexico, where actually half of all native, New World Natives lived in Mexico.
That population is about 80% mixed European and indigenous.
So, yes, there was a lot of intermarriage going on.
And, you know, people don't talk about that part.
Yeah, that's why I asked about it.
People don't talk about it.
So I return to the original question.
As I understand your answer, it was a non-issue that generally speaking, Europeans totally regarded these people as humans created in God's image as much as anybody else.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
The very idea of a red man as a separate race didn't really happen until the 19th century.
So for the first several centuries of exploration, that's very much what people were thinking, yes.
And the idea that they were inferior, maybe culturally they knew that, but racially, there was basically no question.
Now, what about other issues with regard to the Native Americans as they're called?
By the way, do you say Native American or Indian or both?
You know, I've just been using both of them because I actually found a lot of Native Americans who still like to be called Indians.
And 10 or 15 years ago, even the most pro-Native American scholars and historians were just using the term Indian.
15 years ago.
Yep.
Yeah.
And now the Cleveland Indians are no longer the Cleveland Indians.
It's about as irrational an idea.
They're honored, and they still demand that the name be dropped.
By the way, Indians didn't demand it.
It was the woke whites did.
Exactly.
Yep.
Okay, so with regard to the American Indian or a Native American, did they have slaves?
Right.
Yeah.
So we get into this question.
I mean, yes, slavery existed everywhere in the world in every tribal society, and Native Americans were no exception.
I mean, Cortez's main helper in the conquest of the Aztec Empire was traded to him by a Native chief, and she was a slave.
And so there was a massive slave network all throughout the New World.
This was standard practice when a tribe defeated another tribe.
They would usually kill the men and enslave all the women.
And so most of the, you know, Native American slaves in the New World were taken by Native Americans.
I mean, easily 90% or more.
Okay, I want you to watch his video up at Prager U. Maybe reserve it for Thanksgiving tomorrow.
Did Europe destroy Native American culture?
And read his book, Not Stolen.
He's doing important work.
Jeff Finn Paul, professor at Leiden University.
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Yes, this is so important, this topic.
It's so important.
Do you know?
So my professor that I'm speaking to in the Netherlands is Jeff Finn, F-Y-N-N-Paul.
Jeff Finn Paul, professor of economic and social history, Leiden University, author of Not Stolen, The Truth About European Colonialism in the New World.
And he has this week's PragueU video.
Did Europe destroy Native American culture?
I don't know if you're aware.
And for me to tell you something you're not aware of on this subject brings me great pleasure.
So you probably know about the massive controversy of the football team Washington Redskins, right?
Yes, I do.
Okay, so I'm curious if you know the Washington Post, which was the hysterical crackpot cheerleader for that idiotic movement to change the name Redskins, which they finally prevailed.
They themselves had a very expensive, elaborate poll of American Indians, Native Americans.
It turned out the great majority didn't give a hoot about the name Redskins.
Did you know that?
I did not know that.
Oh, all right.
I didn't think you did.
And listen, here's the kicker.
It was commissioned by the Washington Post to poll.
They were so certain that they were right.
Exactly.
Yeah, no, but I'm not surprised because when I talk to individual Native leaders, they don't seem to care one way about what you call them, Indians, or whatever else.
And so I'm not surprised to hear that.
Well, then you will love this.
It is many years that I'm fighting this battle not to change these names.
A guy called me years ago.
It's one of my 10 favorite calls in 40 years.
He goes, Dennis, let me ask you a question.
Knowing I'm Jewish, he said to me, so Dennis, what would you think if a team were named the Jews?
And I said, sir, Jews have been looking for fans for 3,000 years.
Exactly.
I mean, you could argue it's a PR disaster to change these names.
Yes, exactly.
That's right.
That's right.
They become a non-issue.
Yeah.
Exactly.
The left has the great gift of not only being wrong, but stupid.
It's a very bad combination.
So we were talking about the ubiquity of slavery, including among Native Americans.
So they would enslave, as this was the habit all over the world.
You wanna a battle, you enslaved the people you conquered.
Yeah, otherwise, yeah, I mean, otherwise you have to kill them or they would come back and attack you.
So this way you get the best of both worlds.
You get free labor.
Exactly right.
Now, one final thing, and this is a tough one for me at any rate.
And I put it under the realm of tragedy rather than malice, but nevertheless.
So the subtitle or the title of your Prague video is, Did Europe Destroy Native American Culture?
I mean, to a certain extent, I have to believe the answer is yes.
In the same way that Christianity destroyed Celtic culture.
The culture that dominates wins is that fair to say?
Yeah, I mean, exactly.
Things did change, but they changed relatively slowly.
And again, generally speaking, without malice.
I mean, in Mexico, pockets of Native culture stayed virtually, you know, untapped or unchanged for several centuries.
Same in North America.
And so, yes, these things did change, but it wasn't even necessarily that catastrophic for individual generations because it happened slowly.
And again, a lot of it was voluntary adoption of European customs.
So to call that a tragedy when Native people are voluntarily adopting clothing, firearms, metal tools, and religion.
And religion.
And religion.
Absolutely.
All right.
Listen, we're big fans of yours, Jeff.
Jeff Finn Paul, professor at Leiden University in the Netherlands.
His video, totally appropriate for Thanksgiving Week.
Did Europe Destroy Native American Culture up at PragerU and his book, Not Stolen?
The truth about European colonialism in the New World.
Jeff, happy Thanksgiving and thank you so much.
Happy Thanksgiving, guys.
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