Jeremy Kauffman confronts unidentified men claiming to be FBI agents, labeling the encounter an intimidation tactic over protected speech regarding Donald Trump. He contrasts right-wing libertarians prioritizing property rights with left-wing factions he views as hostile to Western civilization and traditional families. Discussing the 2024 New Hampshire Senate race, Kauffman criticizes moderate campaigns for lacking enthusiasm, arguing that left-leaning libertarians should exit the party entirely rather than diluting its core philosophy. Ultimately, the episode highlights a deep ideological fracture within libertarianism regarding law enforcement, open borders, and the future direction of the movement. [Automatically generated summary]
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Federal Agents and Full Names00:12:39
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All right, let's start the show.
What's up?
What's up, everybody?
Welcome to a brand new episode of Part of the Problem.
I'm very excited for this one.
A very quick note before we start the show.
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Okay, welcoming back to the show.
It's been a little while, but of course, we have Jeremy Kaufman, who is a freestater, a member of the Libertarian Party, former Senate candidate, and new internet sensation, the Libertarian Haktua, perhaps, we could say, or something like that.
So this, oh my God, dude, this, you know, this video of you having an encounter with two people claiming to be federal agents has blown up.
I just checked it as before we started the show and it is at 34 million views.
And of course, that's just on your tweet.
That's not counting like a lot, you know, how these things on the online are a lot of people share them and then you don't really get the total numbers.
So before I want to play the video and then I want to kind of discuss it, but first I would just say, what's it been like over this last day for you?
It's been, it's been interesting.
It's been, well, you know, I have a great support network here.
You know, that's something that makes that possible doing that.
You're from New Hampshire, but it's brought a lot of positive attention.
I mean, it's basically torn through the right-wing media.
And I feel good about bringing this lesson to them, you know, as a libertarian.
So, you know, I view it mostly positively.
There are a lot of, you know, unhinged weirdos online, but I don't take them very seriously.
Yes.
Well, that is, there certainly are a lot of unhinged weirdos online.
That's for sure.
And I do kind of want to get into that in a bit.
But so just to, and I, the thing is, I want this episode to be able to go out everywhere.
So I'm almost like just choosing this carefully.
But so this was a response to a tweet from the they never said they did not make any statement about why they were there.
They said they were there for the hot post, but they did not say why, you know, and so, yeah.
So one could speculate if we had to guess, it was probably at least in my assumption.
I guess you're right.
We're about to watch.
We can watch the video in its entirety.
I guess that, I guess I, we all have as much information as you have about why they were actually there, right?
Because that was the entire.
We can speculate why they were there, but we would speculate.
So, but just to be clear, because really it is pretty black and white, that the tweet in question was basically that at least the one that came to my mind and I'm sure comes to your mind too, was basically the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire saying, let's just say, if what's been attempted with Donald Trump was successful with Kamala Harris, that person would be a hero.
Something along those lines.
You know, that that party is somewhat infamous for celebrating, you know, when politicians have passed.
So that's, you know, that's not really new to come out of come out of that group of rascals over there.
Yes.
Well, look, I would just say that however you feel about that sentiment, which we could get into because it's kind of an interesting topic in a way.
But it is certainly legal.
There's no argument that it's legal under the U.S. Constitution, under the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution, and is certainly by any libertarian standard of what we believe ought to be legal is protected speech.
It's an opinion.
It's, you know what I'm saying?
Like there's, there's nothing that should warrant federal agents approaching you for it.
Right.
Right.
Yes.
And right.
And what the government should be doing if speech is legal, as it clearly was, is they should be saying that.
They should be educating the public and saying, you know, they should be putting out a statement saying, hey, you can stop tagging us.
This is something you're allowed to say, you know, rather than going around and intimidating people in an entirely one-sided way, of course, as well.
Right.
They're not going to go knock on, you know, the various actors and celebrities.
Some may come to mind because I've seen some of the clips, but I'm very bad at remembering celebrities' names.
So these people have said very similar statements, you know, about celebrating, wishing Trump had been hit or you're celebrating whatever.
Sure.
And I think that, and perhaps, and, you know, there's a little bit of almost a debate amongst like libertarians versus some former libertarians who have kind of gone in a more hard right wing direction.
And one of the things is that, so I'm thinking of one guy particularly who is, well, I'll just say it is that that streamer, Destiny.
He got in a bunch of trouble, had a viral clip where Piers Morgan really kind of like, you know, was very hard on him about essentially celebrating after the first Trump assassination attempt, saying he didn't feel bad for the firefighter who was killed, all this stuff.
This guy, Desney, is not a fan of mine, has, you know, made up a weird amount of videos about me and like insulting me and stuff.
But at least I would, if federal agents showed up to his house over tweeting that, which of course I think to your point is they didn't and they never would.
But if they did, I would be like, that's an outrage.
And I don't even want to have a conversation anymore about how you felt about what he was saying.
It's kind of like a baseline thing.
Like either you believe we are free creatures or we are slaves.
And if you believe we ought to be free, then like there is, it is, it is an outrage that federal officers in the capacity as thugs would approach someone essentially.
And look, again, if it was any private individual did this, we would recognize them for the thugs that they are attempting to intimidate an American citizen for exercising their freedom of speech.
It's, I guess we're used to these outrages in our country these days, but it really is just appalling.
I agree with you.
Yeah.
And I mean, but I think that, I mean, I think though, like, even though it's a part in the abstract, and I agree, I would absolutely have been offended if it happened to Destiny.
I think the biggest thing here is that they did it this way and in this direction, because it really does highlight how one-sided this entire sort of system has become, the sort of blue power structure, whatever you want to call it.
Like it's intra-agency.
I'm not trying to get like too conspiratorial here, but like it's intra-agency.
It goes into all these other arms of everything.
Like the journalists won't cover this, right?
This story is getting massive attention.
Not a single legacy, quote, whatever you want to call them is going to touch this story.
Despite the story here is FBI agents knocked on someone's house, refused to identify themselves, refused to say why they were there, and it's blowing up on social media.
And they're not going to touch it.
They'll cover the tweet that LPNH put out, right?
But they will not cover that the FBI came.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Here, you know what?
Let's just, let's go to the video just in case anybody hasn't seen it.
Let's watch it in its entirety and then we can break it down a little bit more.
How can I help you?
Hey there.
Yeah.
How are you?
Here we are.
I'm Adrian O'Donnell with the FBI.
Can you give your full name, please?
I'm AJ O'Donnell, the FBI.
Is that sufficient to identify is there only one O'Donnell affiliated with the FBI?
Could you please say your full name, sir?
Could you please stop recording?
No.
It's First Amendment right.
Okay.
What's your name, sir?
Could you stop recording?
Absolutely not.
You can show me your name and identification.
I'm going to go back inside my house.
Okay.
I don't really want to broadcast.
Oh, this is going out right after you guys walk away.
So you can show me your name ID.
You can walk away.
I'm not going to talk to people who claim to be federal agents unless they can show me identification.
You see our badges.
I need to see.
Is your full name on that badge?
No.
I'd like to see something with your full name, or I'm not going to talk to you.
I prefer you not to broadcast it.
This will be going online as soon as you walk away.
All I want to do is talk to you about a post that was made.
I want to talk to you about you guys coming here.
Say you make a salary of, I don't know, what?
Low 100K?
You guys making six figures?
Factor in 50% expenses, overhead, maybe 100% expenses.
Talking about burning a couple hundred dollars an hour just here, let alone all the time you guys are spending to investigate something that you know is not against the law, right?
Like you're familiar with.
So then why would you come?
Because you wanted to make sure that there weren't any.
No, you're coming because you're part of a regime that does this kind of thing when you know laws aren't being broken.
And that's an embarrassment, man.
Didn't you guys read the Constitution?
Do you not believe in America?
Like, how do you do your jobs and go home?
We appreciate it.
You're walking away.
Because nothing we did is against the law.
And you guys are fuckheads that try to act like bullies.
And I hope you go home and are embarrassed.
You can't even say your name on camera because you know that what you're doing is embarrassing.
You know, Americans that believe in the Constitution think you're laughable.
You go home and you think about what you did today.
Go home and think about it, you cowards.
Drive away.
Drive away.
Thank you for your attention.
You're not welcome.
You should be embarrassed.
Embarrassing.
You guys are embarrassing.
All right, dude.
I mean, fucking bravo, dude.
Just handled so flawlessly.
Like, I feel like if we had scripted it, it couldn't have been any better than that.
There were so.
I know.
I mean, look, dude, it's like I'm laughing through it, even though it's something that's really not funny.
It's like very serious.
It was very intense for me.
Yeah, it was.
I'm not trying to say it's not, it's not easy.
Like, you had a lot of, you know, you got your adrenaline going and so on.
Like, yeah, for sure.
It's not a joke.
I can joke about it now, but yeah.
But I mean, there's men with guns approaching your home where your family lives.
It's like a very serious thing, but it's just impossible to not laugh because it's there.
It's a mix of number one at the beginning, it's like you're talking to a drunk woman.
Like, no offense if there's drunk women listening, but you know, if you've ever been in an argument with a drunk woman before, like, and you're just like, what, you know, it's like you're like, can I have your full name, please?
I have a badge right here.
It's like, do you have your full name on your badge?
No, whatever.
You're like, what?
Like, what?
Are you like, are we human?
And the most amazing thing, which I think you noted in your post about it was like, as you stand up to them, it's like these guys are here to bully you.
Why Normies Need 10% Support00:06:03
But as you stand up to them, you just see the shame on their face.
And there's something just beautiful about that.
Yeah.
I mean, I think on some level, they've got to know what they're doing.
I did put out a post today, like, you know, if there are good people, like, maybe there could be like whistleblowing acts or things like, you know, or things like that.
Because I imagine if there are, well, one, we know at least one federal agent is now listening to this program.
And I mean, that's happened.
And, but, you know, look, if there's a good guy, there are, I am not someone who believes all cops are bad people or all federal agents are bad people or all government officials or regulators are bad people.
I think a lot of them are, but I think there are some decent ones, you know, within that structure.
And the ones who are good can attempt to document and provide evidence about what's going on.
Because I think there has been this sort of capture of these organizations.
And I don't even mean it in this like intentional top-down way.
It's almost like a mimetic capture.
It's almost like there's this set of like self-reinforcing things that exist within it rather than, you know, like, like I say that there's this like blue power structure, but it's not a man.
That's why Joe Biden could be replaced by Kamala Harris so easily.
And why the fact and like they're, of course, not happy.
The blue power structure isn't even happy with Kamala.
It was kind of locked into her, but like it doesn't matter because the structure, you know, sort of persists.
And this starts to sound like crazy talk.
I don't, it's not, you know, but it's the set of incentives that's created that keeps out your sort of people with our set of values and beliefs.
Yeah, I think, I think that's right.
And I think it can be oftentimes like a mix of both.
Like there can be a conspiratorial aspect to it.
There can be people at the top who are like, hey, look, we want to crack down on this type of speech.
But I think that what explains the vast majority of it is exactly what you said.
It's a mimetic energy and an incentive-driven energy.
It's the incentives and imitation kind of create a culture.
And then after a while, you just have a culture where almost anybody who like, even if they just, if they, when they hear the story, they go, yeah, well, you had to go see about that tweet.
I mean, yeah, it could potentially be dangerous, rather than viewing things through the lens of like, hey, no, if this is legal, then you don't get to send armed men to go harass somebody over it.
One of the things to me that is, as I said to you before we started recording, is kind of like the real white pill of all of this is that it does seem like the video is essentially you, the video is essentially a guy, you standing up for his rights, not buckling and humiliating a couple of feds.
And this was so appealing to so many people that tens of millions of people have watched this video and shared it and loved it.
And that to me at least goes like, well, there's something pretty positive there.
What are your thoughts?
Well, I agree completely.
But I think that the percent of people who see it as positively is bordering on a permanent minority in America at large.
Right.
And so, of course, my strategy, you know, and I'll repeat it again for anyone here who hasn't heard it, but it's what I talk about all the time is the people with my set of beliefs or our set of beliefs, not to collectivize us, but should be finding a citadel, be building our own power structures in our own institutions.
It is not.
There is not a clear way that you can recapture Harvard or recapture the New York Times.
And these are all part of this reinforcing set of beliefs, which is why the New York Times is never going to cover the stories that are harmful.
And then you can't cite.
And then you can't, it's not, it can't be true on Wikipedia because the New York Times won't report it, you know, or the university won't study it.
And so there have become things that are unknowable within on, and they can't, and they can't engage with this aspect of reality, right?
Even inside our own movement, in our own movement, these would be some of the things that cause ire and resistance to getting into.
But anyway, yeah, my answer is if you're of this set of beliefs, you've got to find a network.
You've got to find a community, whether it's in New Hampshire or not.
That is the bare bones of any kind of resistance.
Yeah, well, I certainly think that you're, I think you're 100% right that we're, I don't know if I'd even say we're moving into permanent minority status.
I think we've been permanent minority status forever.
And perhaps even our minority is growing, but it's still never going to be a majority.
Look, there's also neoconservatives were a very powerful minority.
The transgender movement was a very powerful minority.
So it's not that minorities can shape things, but I do agree with you that there's no hope of capturing these institutions.
Because again, we are asking them to all go against their incentives.
And the people on the other side are saying, no, go with your incentives.
And in that fight, you're just always going to lose.
You're not going to start pushing the waves the opposite way and making them crash out into the ocean rather than toward the shore.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then the other thing that's actually important here in terms of people who have these sort of radical beliefs, and this is another thing we see within the libertarian movement where people don't understand this and they expect like, they think like they're just going to go around and like persuade people individually, like one by one, and people just like agree.
But in reality, if you look at how unpopular beliefs eventually became popular, and you could look at the abolition of slavery, gay rights, interracial marriage, whatever, it's always met with a lot of vitriol in that early stage.
Preparing for Unpopular Ideas00:02:32
And what you're really trying to do is that's fine, as long as your core of support is growing.
Because what eventually convinces the normies there just being enough other people.
A good friend of mine, Travis Corcoran in New Hampshire, who's one of my favorite people to follow, has this had this post the other day about how you basically just a lot of people can't even entertain an idea until at least 10% of people believe it.
Like they just, they can't even engage with it.
The mere, because they only perceive things sort of through a sort of social perception of reality.
And it's fascinating to see people with this psychology, but it's actually a lot of people.
And so that's ultimately how they're going to be persuaded.
And there's no way persuading them other than increasing the density of people who aren't that way, who have a sort of strong core about themselves.
The density of those people is what ultimately brings everyone else along.
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All right, let's get back into the show.
Yeah, you know, I think about this with myself a lot because I remember like I first, you know, like I found Ron Paul in 2007 and then I started reading a lot of like Murray Rothbard in the next few years.
And I was like convinced by the anarchist argument for at least a couple years before I would call myself an anarchist.
And I remember it was literally just, it sounded too crazy to me.
Anarchist Versus Minarchist Arguments00:15:25
And I was like, but like, I don't even mean it sounded too crazy to me.
That's not the right way to put it.
I meant I felt like it would sound too crazy to other people.
And so I was like, you know, I was like, even though I've read the anarchist versus the minarchist arguments and I find these anarchist arguments way more compelling, I was like, I don't want to be seen as that guy.
Cause if I tell you I'm that, you're going to just be like, Do you're fucking nuts?
This is insane.
And it's, I try to think about that a lot.
It's amazing how powerful of a tool that is.
I think it's actually a much more powerful regulator than the law because I was, I broke laws many times.
You know what I mean?
Like I, I mean, maybe not a more powerful regulator than if I actually thought I was going to do like serious prison time, but it was, it's pretty up there.
Like the, the feeling of, of, that we get as social psychological creatures of being like, I am traveling too far out of the pack right now is a very deep instinctual feeling where you're like, there is danger here.
This is where I get eaten by an animal.
I better move back to where there's more people.
And so I do think that's a huge part in ever building like a mass movement is having enough of a pack there that people don't feel too afraid.
Like they're like, okay, I'm with some people here.
So I think there's a very good point.
Yeah, 100%.
And for libertarians who have like never experienced it, I didn't experience that much.
I was like, I'm kind of what you described for a long time.
I mean, I was a libertarian in my head for a long time.
I didn't really live it as part of my life.
I would make sort of libertarian arguments in progressive circles without, these were smart progressives, like tech people, not like hardcore progress, you know.
And I would like make the arguments and you would have, you could tell they're like probably maybe a couple of other libertarians, but you're not wearing it on your sleeve when you're that much of a minority.
And when I came to New Hampshire and it became much more of my peer group, which was more than 10 years ago, or around 10 years ago at this point, then I became way more comfortable, you know, wearing it on my sleeve and being out there.
And then eventually my strategy became that we actually need to be as out there as possible.
Like at least some of us, not every, not every free stater has to be, but part of why we do what we do is because we want to be, you know, there's also sort of like mere exposure effect.
Like this is going to be uncomfortable with people.
And you've got to get through that phase of people hearing about ideas as radical as abolition.
And so we're being that unapologetic voice.
Other people can go around and be the like polite gays in suits, you know, shaking hands and saying, no, we really do just want to get married and adopt two children, you know, or whatever.
And then there's like the gays who are like in the parade, you know, being like, you know, swinging their dicks around.
And so we're like, you know, it takes, I think both types are necessary, actually, as you're trying to bring the public to your side.
Yeah, I think that's probably right.
And I think probably most successful movements have had all of those different sides to them.
Certainly the abolitionist movement, certainly the civil rights movement both had kind of like a moderate face and then a more radical, like, you know, face to it.
One of the things I've been thinking of, and I'm trying to almost like formulate this in my mind.
So let me try to put this the right way.
But so look, for people who know, it's not as if I've been critical at times of the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire's messaging.
Me and you have had some passionate arguments about some of this stuff before, had some good conversations about it.
One of the things that really I was kind of blown away by was the people who would identify as libertarians, who as this video was going super viral, were condemning the tweet or talking about that.
And for me, as somebody who has been a fairly sharp critic of some of the tweets out of New Hampshire, it was, I was kind of taken aback where you're like, okay, guys, but that clearly isn't the story here anymore.
Like, I don't know what the analogy to it would be, but it's like if like some woman was like running late to meet some a guy, and then because she was late, the guy punched her in the face.
And I was like, oh my God, call the cops.
That's a crime.
And then someone was like, hey, let's talk about how she was running late.
You're like, no, we're not having a conversation about that anymore.
That is obviously not the story here.
I don't care how you felt about the tweet.
There are federal goons showing up to harass an American citizen over legally protected free speech.
Are you a libertarian or aren't you?
And it kind of, look, this is something that I've been thinking about a lot.
I'm sure you have too.
It really started with COVID for me, where there were these libertarians who really failed the COVID test who were not like vocally opposed to lockdowns and mandates and these things.
And then there were a whole bunch of right-wingers who were vocally opposed to them.
And I was like, explain to me why I'm not just on their team rather than your team.
Like when a moment like this happens, it almost goes like, yeah, I don't care what you tell me you believe in.
When it actually goes down, you are a pussy who's not willing to even like verbally stand up for liberty.
And I don't know.
I'm still formulating this thought kind of, but I wonder if you have any thoughts on that or if you've seen some of that stuff.
I think it's actually mostly because left-right is a real distinction and that phenomenon, whatever, it's difficult to get at what the root of it is.
And we could even get into that more, but that phenomenon explains a lot of it.
And you see all the libertarians who had a problem with it would basically be called left egalitarians.
They're more sorry, left libertarians.
And I think they should be, they're more egalitarian in nature.
They're more, they're the ones, they're all the ones that also want open borders.
And right, because these are all, there's some sort of, these are correlated concepts in some way.
They're all, you know, and I think it has potentially has to do with their like orientation of moral concern.
Like I'm very focused on like, you know, sort of me and my, not just my family, you know, my, my friends, my peers, my community, but I'm not, I'm like, ignore, why are we thinking at all about, you know, these, unless they're like actually a threat to us in some way, why are we thinking about any foreign country?
I don't want to have to think about like Florida or California.
Like I don't, you know, I believe in, I think like America is the greatest country in the world, but I don't want to have to, I think I want I want even more separation even inside these things.
And so, but other people just have much, you know, much different morals.
And so in COVID, their sympathies were much more, their orientation is all towards the, you know, the people people might, people might get hurt.
You know, we need to do this to make sure that people might not get hurt.
And, you know, the, the, they feel that, you know, the, the, the worth of some random person in Haiti is like equal to the worth of their neighbor.
So like, who are you?
You know, to, and so, their value system is, is actually different than the value system that right-wing people have.
Yeah, I mean, I, it's certainly, you're undeniably right that it is this left-right divide.
Um, and it's something I've been thinking a lot more about over the last few months, particularly since the LP convention in DC.
Um, I guess I kind of felt like, you know, I felt like obviously I felt I had a certain obligation.
Um, and I also like, I got into like the kind of vision that Heiss had about Michael Rechtenwald being the nominee.
I was trying to see that through.
Obviously, people know he ultimately lost and Chase got the nomination.
And it was almost like I had this, I had come into this new period.
There was like the time where I was trying to like be a part of this, like, this movement to take over the Libertarian Party.
There was a time when I was flirting with running and then planning on running, ultimately deciding not to, then trying to get this other guy across who ultimately didn't.
And then it was almost like, okay, I'm taking a step back now.
And let me think about this.
And one of the revelations that I had, which is really stupid if you think about it, I don't know why I just started thinking about this after the convention in DC, but I started to think to myself, it's like, I've been so focused for so many years on this idea of like recreating the Ron Paul revolution.
And it always was just almost like a given in my mind.
That's like, well, that's what you'd want to do.
I mean, that was when people had the most interest in libertarianism.
So let's try to do that again.
And it just kind of like, it all kind of clicked to me where I was like, you know, 2024 is not 2008.
And they are about as different as those many years apart from each other could be in any society.
I mean, maybe short of like a full-fledged revolution, but you could almost even debate whether we've had a full-fledged revolution in this country.
And I just started realizing that like maybe that old coalition is impossible to bring together today.
And like, you know, this is probably something that you've thought about like in the Libertarian Party over the last few years.
Like you do look at some of these people and you're like, I don't really, the idea that there's going to be a coalition between the left libertarians and the right libertarians or between Mises and Cato is just obviously impossible.
And just the immigration divide alone, I mean, that's like the biggest issue in America today.
And you're not going to have open borders and closed borders people in a coalition together.
And there was something just seeing some of the libertarians who were taking this as an opportunity to criticize your aggressive tweeting style really just reinforced that in my mind, where I was like, look, there is an important divide between are you a libertarian or are you a statist?
I'm always going to be on the libertarian side of that divide.
But I do just think the left-right divide is much more important these days.
I don't know what your thoughts on any of that are.
I think, so I wish, what I wish is that the other side could acknowledge it, because then if you're going to have any hope for like, if we could be like, okay, like we share this set of values, but we differ in this important attribute.
And this, this is an explanatory reason for why we see these issues differently, then like maybe there'd be some hope.
But like they insist that, but I just don't see this at all.
The left constantly insists that they're the center, right?
And so this is why they have to disavow the right and say like they're not real libertarians, et cetera, et cetera.
And so the thing is, when you do that, then you make it an existential battle, right?
Because if you're saying that we can't exist at all as even the word that we think we are, then you turn it into this existential battle.
And now since you're in this sort of existential battle, everything becomes about the battle.
And this is also why.
You see, all this stuff of the way that people inside the movement behave.
While, like all these um, you know, conservatives are amplifying this post and loving it, the libertarians, who are very concerned that the like internal battle for status inside of the party you know are, are interacting with it through uh, you know, through this lens, and and a and a whole bunch of behavior of people inside the Libertarian Party can simply be seen as like jockeying for the next LNC election, because what else is there to really accomplish other than to grab the car you know um,
and then get blamed for not being able to do what you promise, because what you promised is typically impossible um I, you know I so.
However, I do have two uh potential um, helpful conclusions from all this, but one well, one is, I would beg the left libertarians this isn't a conclusion, but I would beg the left libertarians, if you know any, you know any, you will listen you're like, clip this and send it to them and say guys, can we please just like acknowledge this about each other?
I'm willing to say that i'm right wing like, I don't have a problem with it, you know, but you guys can't say you're left wing, it's not, it's not and they'll like be like.
It's a look oh, but what policies are left wing?
It's not about policy.
It's not about policy.
It's about your reaction uh, to the.
It influences policy a little bit on the margins, like borders right uh, but it's mostly about if this is a different in um, our moral orientations okay but, but in terms of useful things for the right-wing libertarians, I don't think we should give up on the word libertarian.
I know some people like that idea um, but I don't like.
Libertarian is a is a political and legal theory on how to resolve disputes between humans.
It's an amazing theory.
It's a beautiful theory.
The more that we can scale it up, the more it would actually solve you know problems um, and that is the word to describe what I believe, more so than any other word.
Um, I wish I would.
I wish Mises Caucus would embrace that.
They are right-wing libertarians and just own this like we do.
Both sides need to own it.
We're the left-wing libertarians, we're the right-wing libertarians okay, that's what you are.
Okay um, uh and uh, and then also like that.
You don't need to do anything else than say like, just acknowledge what you care about, you believe you're libertarians and you want to control the name Libertarian Party, because that is how a lot of people conceive of the word.
That's literally why I care about the Libertarian Party OF NEW Hampshire.
That's why I got involved.
That's, I get to help.
It's a.
It's a.
You know, this is, and this is why I use it in a certain way.
Uh, and you know, among and i've built a team of people that use it in a certain way um, but this is just get down to the, the brass tax.
You don't need to promise anything.
We're just going to make sure that the Libertarian Party isn't like.
That's the ultimate reason people are in miscaus.
We just don't want the Libertarian Party to be controlled by those losers.
Right yeah, just get down to the bottom of it.
Why are we pretending we're here for any other reason?
You know uh and, And that's how, and once you've put, here's what you can actually do once you've put it together.
You can do what Angela did, which was very smart, which is, look, we're a block that you can pander to.
We're a coherent group of human beings with a set of beliefs that if you offer us something, we will support you because that's the best you can do.
That's the best you can do when your beliefs are ultimately.
I mean, how many people can even understand the legal and political theory of property rights that there's libertarianism?
Okay, people.
So if this is your coalition, like become a coalition, you can use the Libertarian Party as your coalitioning mechanism, especially since they're called the Libertarian Party and you don't want to lose it, but just use it for that purpose.
And you're ultimately putting together a block to be like, all right, who's going to pitch us on more stuff this year?
And if you can occasionally win some local elections or whatever, build up profiles, but like focus on a block that's the best thing I've seen come out of the Libertarian Party in a long time.
So let me ask you, no, no, no, it's very interesting.
Let me ask you.
So like, in terms of like, what do you think actually is the defining feature between like, say, left and right libertarians?
Because I agree with your point.
It's not like sometimes it won't, it has nothing to do with even your policy.
So one example, by the way, that I've, that I've used a few times before, I don't even mean to pick on this guy.
It's just, it was such a perfect example that I just can't not talk about it.
But so I was at the Libertarian Party National Convention along with you and some other great people there.
And so there's this one guy who I think is kind of like a staple of the Libertarian Party world, but he wears these crazy outfits.
Like he's in a thong.
It's like a grown man in a thong and like a cat uniform type thing.
And he comes up to me at one point at the convention and he goes, Hey, Dave, I'd like to I'd like to have a discussion with you about immigration.
Matching Ideology to Action00:07:11
I think you're wrong on your stance.
And I was like, I was like, oh, you know, I just, I actually just recorded a podcast with Bob Murphy where I went through like my whole views on immigration.
If you want to check it out, like you can check it out.
He goes, and he goes, no, no, no, I'm interested in a dialogue here.
And I was like, yeah, I'm sorry.
I can't right now.
I got to like run.
And he goes, and he just launched into it and started going like, you know, open borders is just the free movement of people.
And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm familiar with the argument.
I disagree.
But I, and there was just this moment where I was like, I didn't say this out loud or nothing, but I'm just like, dude, you are a grown man in a thong.
If you think I'm into a serious conversation with you right now, like, and, and the thing that sticks in my mind is like, listen, I, and I don't know the guy, but I know this is true.
Obviously, we disagree on immigration.
I guarantee you, if you were like, hey, where do you stand on war, money, taxes, guns, regulation?
I mean, I bet you could go down the list of really, really important issues that we would totally agree on.
But we don't agree on the idea that a grown man in a thong is going to come up and have a serious conversation with someone.
And that is, that is so much more important than that other list of things.
Like, if you don't get that, then there's, there's nowhere we can go from here.
And that's almost like the best way I could think to like describe the distinction.
Yeah, it's, I mean, you have this sort of cloud.
And it's fun to figure this out because I've been trying to figure this out.
Like, what's the root of all this?
And I haven't, I don't have like a firm, your theory, but you get these sort of like, you're grasping the elephants or whatever when you're blind and trying to figure it out.
So it's like, it's similar to, because it is that adjacent left thing.
There's this, you'll see this like aspect of like non-judgment.
Like we shouldn't judge, you know, as long as it's voluntary and like that it shouldn't be judged.
And it's like, what?
I don't agree with that.
I don't agree with that at all.
This is a legal theory about property rights.
Where did you say I don't have to judge anyone?
You know, like, I can judge, I can judge people.
I just don't want to produce goods in a coercive manner.
This is a theoretic block.
I don't agree with it.
But this is the left libertarian kind of perspective.
You'll see, again, the orientation of moral concern.
They want to set the whole world free, a world set free in our lifetime.
They're interested in liberation.
Liberate everybody.
So, yeah, these are all sort of things you see that are in this cloud.
Yes, it's one of the things, by the way, I gave a in my speech at the Libertarian Party convention that I basically went through like all.
all the things I think libertarians are doing great and all the things I think they're doing wrong.
And specifically in the section of what they're doing wrong, I used that phrase and said, we got to stop using stupid phrases.
And that was one of them was good ideas don't require force.
I hate that.
And the other one was that was a world set free in our lifetime.
I was like, we sound like I compared it to in George W. Bush's second inaugural address.
He said his goal for his second term was to rid the world of tyranny.
And I was like, sounded, you know, sounded a bit lofty to me, you know, like, and, and I, I would like a world set free in our lifetime, but like, if we could set one city free in our lifetime, that would be an enormous accomplishment.
Somewhat, something like we're like, we would be like, wow, we really did it.
You know what I mean?
And so the idea of setting a city free or setting a state free, setting the United States of America free.
But your goal right now is that sub-Saharan Africa must embrace individual liberty before I'm dead.
I'm already 41.
You know what I mean?
Like, I don't have that much time to go.
We got to get moving on this, Jeremy.
Yeah, well, that's what, you know, we reduced the scope to one population of 1.4 million in New Hampshire.
I do think there are reasons that it has to be a state.
You know, you can look outwards maybe once you've accomplished that, but we don't need to worry about anything else.
And you know what I've been reading about, Dave?
It's like early, like early history of Israel, actually.
Yep.
Because, you know, the population of the land now known as Israel was like 5%, 6% Jewish in 1890.
And what is it today?
And like, we are colonizing.
The lefties are going to clip this, but I don't care.
Like, we're colonizing sellers.
Like, we're here.
Like, you've got to match this ideology.
We need to get out.
That's my opinion.
And I'm sorry, but I just don't have another way to create it.
I want to be clear.
I'm not trying to be violent.
I would like to buy all of their property through market transactions, you know, but like we have identified this place.
We're going to keep coming.
You can work with us and join us.
Like we're not, we think we can create something that's great for everybody.
We're not trying to, and my version is not, you know, heroin in the streets and this kind of thing.
You know, I do believe in order in a community 100%.
I believe we can produce that order in different ways and better ways, et cetera.
But I'm not of that.
There's a form of libertarianism.
But this is what we're doing.
And put out the beacon.
And, but yeah, and I've been learning about it once that one of these movements have done.
And like they were, they were radical.
Some of the stuff they did was like really radical, you know?
And I'm not trying to say I'm trying to do some of the things that they did necessarily.
But it's been eye-music, you know.
Jeremy, for the record, is not planning on winning a war and occupying Massachusetts or anything like that.
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All right, let's get back into the show.
But, well, look, I get your point.
And there's, and look, I've always said I think there's, there's a very strong argument for the Free State Project and that goal.
And I, I, I certainly get the argument there.
On the left-right distinction, the other thing that I just kind of can't help but notice is that, and I'm not even sure.
I guess this, I'm not sure exactly how this plays with like pure left-wingism versus right-wingism, but there does seem to be one of the big characteristics that differentiates the two to me seems to be a kind of like this internalized agreement with the regime that is quite frankly hostile to Western civilization,
Reflexively Siding With The Lesser00:15:08
to bourgeois norms, to straight white men, to traditional family lifestyles, like this instinct to always side against whoever is seen as like, you know, higher up in the hierarchy of oppression or something like that.
The idea that like immediately, I remember if you remember the Garrett Foster story out in Austin, where the guy did, I believe, end up getting convicted.
And I still to this day think that's just wrong.
Like I do not think.
Oh, did you?
That's right.
I'm sorry.
I forgot he got pardoned out.
And good for having to be.
Yeah.
But I mean, that is, you know, it's just like, I'm sorry.
I'm not immediately like my instinct.
And maybe this is what, as we're kind of like thinking out loud about this, maybe this is what makes me a right libertarian.
But my instinct when I hear, for anybody who doesn't know the story, this was during the Black Lives Matter protests.
This guy, Garrett Foster, who tragically, you know, got killed that night, he's there.
He's in the street in the protest.
There was like an Uber driver who was an ex-military guy who's coming up.
He tries to kind of like go through the protest.
I forget exactly what happened, whether he went through the light or whatever, but the group mobs him.
They run up to his car.
Garrett Foster runs over with a rifle, has it in down ready position.
The guy in the car has a pistol, shoots and kills him.
Now, my instinct in that situation is, first of all, I think it's tragic.
It's tragic when somebody gets killed.
It's tragic that the guy had to go through this, but I just kind of err on the side of like, I'm kind of on the side of the guy who's being a normal person.
I'm kind of on the side of the guy who was driving a car on the street where cars belong and who was probably just trying to work and just trying to go home.
And the guy who ran up to him with a rifle in down ready position while there's a mob of people around that guy.
And he's now got to take, he's got to decide, do I put my life in your hands or do I put my keep my defense in my hands?
I just tend to side with that guy.
And immediately a lot of libertarians knee-jerk sided with Garrett Foster.
And that to me always seemed like kind of one of the distinctions.
Like it's like, why you're just, it's almost like a feeling that like the Black Lives Matter protester gets the benefit of the doubt rather than just the guy who's just driving home.
Well, they do.
That's part of, that's part of the, that's part of being on the left.
Is like they almost sort of reflexively side with the lesser.
You know, and not that, not that collectively blacks are lesser, but like that idea of like they're siding like it's a protest.
You know they're oriented towards uh um equality equity uh, you know this, this kind of thing um, and I, I remember that issue.
I mean we don't need to relitigate.
I remember that one being like really complex um, and I didn't like go through it enough to have a uh, a strong opinion on it.
But certainly I mean I think almost all the BLM protesters were crappy people and and i'm of the kind of opinion like I want I have this meme that i've been showing, that's like the bottom right and the top right kissing all the way out even farther to the right um, because it's like I want very few rules.
I don't want that many, I want I would get rid of a ton of them.
But like if a rule is to exist, then it ought to be enforced.
Like this is the way I govern.
You know my household.
You know like I have way fewer rules um than most families and parents have, probably in America generally, for my kids.
But you know what my kids do.
They follow the rules that I said for them because I enforce them with like, basically 100 authority.
You know, because it's a rule like this is what you they.
I'm not saying rules, rules can be changed, rules can evolve.
I'm not trying to say i'm like this closed-minded person but, like you know, we enforce standards, you know.
But I think um, the psychology of these people really is different.
I had a interesting um post in my history it was one of my more popular viral ones before recently on this concept of um white hierarchical, individualistic men.
They actually cluster meaningfully different, in a variety of of sociological profiles.
They're like, they're like around one sixth of the population of America and you can cluster like their beliefs, in a whole bunch of things like global warming and a whole bunch of of other factors, and they're like out here on one side and like and I get my hands on them.
You can imagine they're like very far apart from each other.
Uh, on um on global warming, on gun rights, on um private gun ownership, regulation of private businesses.
It's like borderline libertarian, but also, you'll see on, it doesn't have these sort of other elements of the type of libertarian that you're that you're talking about um.
My view is that this is.
This is the type of man who built modern society uh, and we're dominated everywhere, but other people might view it differently and might think we're racist bigots sexists, whatever you know.
Uh well yeah, I mean, it is like it is.
They don't have to be white, by the way, i'm not trying to make about race like this is.
Yeah, there are people with these characteristics that aren't white.
Yeah no, I mean look, this is as I.
I know you saw some of it but, like over the last few years, this was one of the, the fights that I would always pick with other libertarians, which I just I couldn't even believe I was getting the level of pushback I was from some of them, but it was just like I would be, like you know, like my, as you alluded to, not being one of the libertarians who believes the streets ought to be the home for junkies or something like that, or my I.
I actually couldn't because, by the way, the story, a lot of the uh the, the left libertarians who aren't fans of me and you, they they would retell this story in a bunch of ways.
That wasn't actually what happened.
They'd say I called the cops on a homeless guy in a playground, which is not true.
I did not call the cops uh, on a homeless guy, but I was back in uh, in the Upper West Side, where I used to live with my daughter and this was, this is like three years ago.
So she was, she's was three um, or almost three, and we went to this playground and there's just like this homeless junkie passed out at the side of a public playground and I was like yo, he should be removed, like yeah, I thought that would be the one that nobody could possibly argue with, because it's like, like I, this is clearly a place a lot of people have sympathy for the bump they have sympathy for.
That's the crazy thing to me.
It's like they align with the bum.
Like in that situation, they are taking the perspective of the bum.
They're not taking, right?
They're not.
And that to me is almost like the closest to the core of what we're really talking about in this divide that I could get to.
It's like, by the way, I'm also not, I'm not like the furthest right wing and I don't have zero sympathy for the bum.
I do like, hey, I'm, I'm the type of guy who like, if we were like, someone was like, you know, there's no homeless people in my town, but like if there was someone and one of my neighbors was like, hey, we're raising money.
We're going to put this guy up here.
We've got him in a program where he can get back into this or blah, blah, blah.
I contribute to that.
I don't, I think it's better for the whole community.
And I also would, I'm not against helping someone who's really down.
But in this situation, it's not a close call for me that the kids and the families and the, and by the way, this was the upper west side of New York City.
There were Asian families and black families.
There's all, it wasn't like white people there, but I'm on team normal.
I'm on team family.
I'm on team dad bringing his daughter to the slide, not on team homeless junkie trumps their, you know what I mean, their concerns.
It's the best I can say it.
Well, I'm with you 100%.
And so I don't know if you want to do like autistic libertarian legal theory for just like briefly, but I think to me, you've got all this stuff that was built up that would not be the proper way that it should exist if we had like started from the atoms of like everyone's private property.
But what we will do with those atoms is we'll assemble them into larger ones, right?
Like I'm in a municipality, houses are close to me.
Like it's not, it's not going to be total anarchy.
Like property rights are bundles of rights.
We have pipes.
We have roads.
Like you're going to have like there is going to be God don't strike me down for saying this, but like there will be zones.
I don't know.
Like we don't have to abandon the word zoning.
There's going to be, there's going to be things that will exist.
And your people are going to pay for the police, right?
The police work differently, but not everyone is going to protect themselves.
People are going to pay for protection service, right?
So instead of throwing everything away and saying, it's all terrible because it's all produced coercively.
And every person who participates in the system, I think the right way to view it is how far away is that behavior from the counterfactual of what would be produced privately, right?
How things ought to be getting produced if we actually had a, and so we can judge things from the distance of that.
You know, if that park was like was properly like paid for, paid for by the people living around it, like how we should judge the behavior of what's allowed in that park is mostly what those people would kind of want, if that's the closest, you know, you know, way that it would have been produced.
And they don't want this.
And it may have even been, you know, Rothbard, who I almost universally love, who had this, but this idea of like, we should view government property as unhomesteaded land.
I actually don't agree that that's the right counterfactual.
I think it's something like this land is, you know, everyone's, the right counterfactual should be something like everyone should be a stockholder or like a shareholder in their local court.
Like the municipality is the corporation and one home is one share, or you can have, imagine other systems, but like things directionally that way.
And you can even find municipalities that were formed actually relatively aligned with sort of libertarian theory.
And then it's easier to see.
I completely agree with you.
And look, Rothbard was the genius of all geniuses.
I think he's one of the greatest minds of the 20th century.
But there were a few areas where he was wrong.
And I do think he's wrong about that.
To me, it just doesn't.
If I enslave you for six months out of the year or four months out of the year, depending on what level you're at of income, if I enslave you for four, five, six months out of the year, and I take those resources to build and maintain a piece of property, it does not follow to me that justice would be me saying that property is now unowned.
Like justice would be that you should get it.
Like you were enslaved.
And okay, it's a lot more complicated when it's not just one person.
It's millions of people.
But the theory still like to me holds that you wouldn't just declare it unowned.
That just seems ridiculous to me.
It doesn't share any of the characteristics of owner.
It's not the wild frontier where anyone can go homestead it and it doesn't affect anybody else.
It's just it seems all wrong to me.
Yeah, well, maybe I'm misremembering that even.
So let's have, and so if you bring it all the way up to the borders level, it's like, well, what's the proper, you know, what's the proper counterfactual?
And it probably is true that we wouldn't be producing border security anyway like the way that we're doing it now.
If you took, you know, if you took it, if you reconstructed America from the small, these smaller atoms and built things up, right?
I think towns would still probably look pretty a lot like towns do today.
There'd be differences, but they actually wouldn't change a ton.
Whereas I think when you get at the state level and the country level, you would see larger and larger changes.
And then you have a problem where, well, you know, there isn't really a way.
Like, I don't want to really pay as a libertarian in New Hampshire to police the border in Texas.
But at the same time, I don't want certain types of people who might come across the border in Texas to ultimately come to New Hampshire.
And what are the mechanisms for me stopping them from coming here where I am, which is the way I basically view everything?
Well, it's an important thing to think about if you're if geographical concentration is your strategy, then yeah, that would be like undeniably, you'd kind of have to think about that.
I got to ask, by the way, because I'm just because we're having this conversation and I've I've really vowed to not talk about him much on the show and I haven't, but I had to ask you kind of about the Chase Oliver campaign and what your thoughts on this were.
One of the things that I thought was kind of interesting is that you and Chase both ran for the Senate at the same time and you could not have run more polar opposite libertarian campaigns.
You know, like if we're talking about this left-right divide, there's not a better poster boy for each, you know what I mean, than you two.
And you both ended up getting like 2%.
You know what I mean?
It's like, it's kind of almost this interesting thing where you're like, ah, no, like no matter what the libertarian kind of gets.
Now, it might be a little bit different in New Hampshire, but I'm kind of, I'm watching this.
I did see like a few of the Chase supporters in my, I haven't really been commenting that much on Libertarian Party things since the convention.
I shared your video.
And so I kind of got some of these feedback from the Chase people who were very upset about the post.
I guess Chase himself came out and condemned the tweet.
I don't know.
I'm kind of, I got to say, I'm amazed at the lack of noise that the Chase campaign is making.
Even in my world, it just doesn't register as anything.
I don't know.
Like I say, when I look at the Joe Jorgensen campaign, I look at that and I go, the one tangible thing that I think that came out of it is that Spike Cohen kind of got launched as like a figure in the liberty movement.
I didn't know who Spike was before the campaign.
A lot of libertarians didn't.
Almost all libertarians know who Spike Cohen is now.
And he is an effective messenger.
I mean, I love him and I think he's a great guy.
Whether you love him or not, he certainly is one of our most effective messengers.
So you're like, okay, that's something.
It's not nothing.
We got like, we launched his profile.
He went from being a guy with like a few thousand followers to a guy with like a couple hundred thousand followers from that campaign.
I don't see anything like that coming out of this campaign.
Both of them seem to be generating no enthusiasm.
And I guess, and the other thing that I find kind of interesting, I just curious if you have any thoughts on this, is that it's kind of interesting to me that while all of the left libertarians kind of lectured us over the years about how unpopular our rhetoric would be, none of them seem very excited about Chase.
And he has totally moderated his rhetoric.
Like he's not running on any of the kind of left-wing things that would have been the things that we were arguing with left libertarians about.
I don't know what are your thoughts on that?
Fiction Cannot Confront Reality00:03:28
I agree with basically everything you said.
I mean, the well, the campaigns we're doing are very different.
I mean, I wasn't really running a real campaign.
I'm just doing the New Hampshire maximalist strategy thing.
And it's just another, you know, that's what the campaign was.
Sorry if you didn't figure that out yet, everybody.
But yeah, look, I got on the stage at a national convention and called Chase a gay race communist.
But that's just a way of saying he's a leftist.
That's provocative.
They can't see that they're leftists.
They want to fight you for the party.
So they have to be kind of fought.
They don't get any attention because they're trying to exist within a system that's not going to give them any.
And so the only way you can get it is to demand it, which I feel like we in New Hampshire continue to even show them and show people.
And these people just get mad at us.
So they can't even engage with when the market is working.
Obviously, my account just blew up.
But even before that, if you look at the growth of the LPNH account versus the growth of both of their accounts, throughout the campaign season, LPNH is growing faster, even as they're running for president.
Now, that said, in terms of pure vote percentage, and this is also the fundamental thing that in terms of the Libertarian Party and the movement going wrong, like you are not optimizing for pure vote percentage the next election.
Like if you get a bunch of people who are just like, oh, I, yeah, like a third party, like, yeah, those are parties suck.
I'll vote for the alternative guy.
Like, that's not a movement.
That guy can't bring you anyone else.
That guy is a terminal voter that you could have picked up at any time.
He is an end node.
He does not do anything for you aside from make the number go up a little bit in that election.
What you're trying to do, and again, I do this with all of our stuff.
We're trying to create, we're trying to attract a real, a real set of values, a real set of things that you can have and then spread outwards.
And so, you know, Alec, if you were going to try to keep the Libertarian Party alive, you'd get it down to like 300 people who get it, kick everyone else out, and come up with a much better mechanism for who you're letting into this thing.
Okay.
You can actually keep some strong definition to it.
It's a race to like, you had half the, it's right now, half the people in the Libertarian Party have like no idea of what libertarianism as a philosophy is.
Chase is bringing in more people who also will have absolutely no clue.
You know, it's just guns and legal weed or whatever.
And also the fact that they're doing this, they know it, which is also why neither of them would be interested in talking to me because I would say it to their faces, which would be unavoidable because the leftist strategy, right?
The right is on the side of reality.
The left is on the side of fiction.
The side of fiction can't confront the side of reality, right?
And so the only strategy is to avoid confrontation.
When we had a beef, you confronted me, right?
And I may not have handled that perfectly for my end.
I'll say that on the show.
I may not have, I may not have either.
Yeah.
So, uh, um, uh, and uh, but we had a confrontation.
We confronted each other, right?
Because that's a that is, uh, I think a more right-wing way of handling things, right?
So, and this is why, like, I'm, I, I will wait.
I went on to Faker Terriot's with like six people there.
It's one of the funniest podcast episodes I've ever done, actually.
Pursuing A Separate Strategy00:09:36
And now they just call me a racist, but wouldn't even talk to me because like they can't, they can't even talk to you.
You have facts on your side.
I have the facts on my side most of the time when I'm saying crazy stuff.
And, you know, so there's no engagement.
They'll shame you, but they won't have any back and forth with you.
All they can do is taboo you because there's no truth on their on their on the issues of where well, most of the areas of disagreement, there's very little truth on their side.
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Yeah, I mean, look, you're preaching to the choir on that one.
I mean, I debated so many of those guys, you know, during the kind of run of leading the takeover of the Mises caucus and stuff.
And it's like, yeah, I mean, that really does sound right.
I do just, I guess one of the things that's fascinating to me, and it's fascinating about your video with the feds, and it also holds true with this, is what you just said, that it's like they know it.
And this is what's so bizarre to me, where you're like, look, like, why isn't Chase talking about the trans the kids stuff now?
Why isn't he talking about all, you know what I mean?
Like, there's so many of these things that it's like he's trying to walk away from that because you know, you know that you can't actually win an argument on this.
You know, this isn't actually popular.
He's not like, again, like to your point about New Hampshire's Twitter growing faster than theirs during a present, that is really an incredible, you know, thing to note that it's like, and look, maybe from their perspective, they're like, oh, we don't want to grow it the way New Hampshire is growing it.
Like, okay, so then what's your way?
What's the, what's the other way to do it?
Because it seems like, by the way, I don't, and I don't begrudge Chase this at all.
I, I invited him both personally and publicly to come on the show.
And I was, as anybody who knows me, I did it in good faith.
I wouldn't be like trying to criticize the guy.
I felt almost a little obligated.
Like, hey, let me give you this platform if you want.
Obviously, I'm going to push back on some of the stuff I disagree with you on, but they don't want to come on the show.
And I don't begrudge them that.
If I were his campaign advisor, I'd probably advise him not to come on this show.
It's not going to go well for you.
You can't really defend your ideas.
I would fight anyone though.
That's why it's like I'm like, what's wrong with you?
You're supposed to be the leader.
Like, you should be able to talk to anyone.
She's able to handle any situation.
That's what it means.
You know, like you're just showing that you're scared.
And I just don't understand how you can expect people to follow you when you implicitly show people that you're a scared person.
Well, I guess my thing is almost like, look, I could accept if it was like, hey, look, New Hampshire's pursuing their strategy on how to grow their audience.
Dave is pursuing his strategy on how to grow his audience.
We are pursuing a separate strategy on how to grow that audience.
But it's almost like just nothing.
Like if they were like, hey, look, our time is valuable and we don't think that coming on this show is the best use of our time.
Fine.
But it's like, what shows are you going on?
It seems to be doing nothing.
Right.
I mean, they said no to the Tim Poole show, where also I would have been, you know, I would have asked some hard questions, but I wasn't going to go in there and like just make fun of him and attach him.
You know, that's not what I was going to do.
So, but I think they don't want to answer those questions.
So that's what do you well, let me ask you this.
And then, and we could, uh, we could wrap after this.
But so you're, so I, I hear what you're saying, that you think that the Libertarian Party should be it.
The Mises caucus' goal should be to keep the thing like exclusively right-wing libertarians and kind of control, like the, the messaging, and work on coming up with as many mechanisms as we can to like make sure we're getting really quality people in who are, who are members.
Do you think because I, I it does seem to me like this chase campaign is going to fall flat on its face and accomplish absolutely nothing do you think there's a good opportunity to do that after this and is that worth pursuing in your opinion?
I mean, that's like I think the value of what you're capturing is worth what it effectively costs in human capital to do it.
And although i'm i'm i'm sure Michael Heist and his team like put in a tremendous amount of work and I maybe I am underestimating it, but I think the total cost of producing that you know for sort of the prices where people would potentially be willing to do the work for are it is producible and so effectively you're for the right-wing libertarian, you know, is it worth, you know, 50 to 100 a year on average per person to you know, have the Libertarian Party in control of people like you um it's, it's worth that much money to me per year, you know.
And so if all I have to do is be a member of national, be a member of my state party and, you know, show up um, and one of the things to say also, the more we embrace that this is like the real politic nature of it the less, the more we can throw away with all the other crap that doesn't matter.
Like strip your state convention down to like two hours.
Okay, we're in charge, we're done, go home, like you know, I just get down to the the, the brass tax of of what reality is here.
You're saying with national convention like, like I know, look honestly, i'm gonna.
The Music Caucus didn't do a good job.
They did not.
If they like, this is supposed to be the power politic, I thought they did a much better job before.
You need to make sure you, if you control the, if you controlled the entire thing over close, like they didn't do a good job getting their done, they didn't do a good job.
Like at the actual convention, like just getting through stuff like, but what they?
What you should be as super.
They should be a mechanism for continuing to help fight for the state parties and organizing them um, along this right wing access and then, as soon as they have like, firm clear, the entire majority control, the next year they have the entire firm clear, entirely control of the LENC.
They should rewrite the entire thing and they should make it what it you know, and stop and and get rid of all this pretending you know and I don't know what they should rewrite it to.
But that's what I rewrote, the entire thing okay, and this is it and we're keeping it this way.
You know, you know uh um, or you know, I mean, maybe there's some room again if the lefties can come to the table.
You know, maybe we can like divvy out states.
You know, and like like, if I don't, if LP Louisiana or whatever like, wants to be like super gay and recruit the like trans furry libertarian crowd and the people who want to wear you know uh uh, you know naked suits, like I don't.
I like again, it's a theory of property rights, like maybe those people should be concentrating in Louisiana.
You know, i'm not, i'm not against those people living the way that they want to live, i'm just against them living that way.
You know near me, in my opinion.
You know um and and hell I invite them to New Hamperen if they can recognize, you know their role.
Take over the Democratic Party like.
We have those types here.
We're not devoid of those types.
I'm always trying to push them like go, take over the Democratic Party.
Like, imagine if your choice on the ballot right was you or the guy in this in the spandex.
Like, as you said, you agree on almost everything.
Like those are two choices to have on the ballot.
Those would be like the best possible two.
You know two choices to have.
You know, if you have to pick, you know again that well, we could imagine someone in the continuum that would be better than that second person.
But they've got to be able to take over the Democrats.
They've got to, you know, have some leftist essence.
You know to them and and that's what they should be, you know doing is take over the Democratic Party.
They should be putting a power base in there.
I could not agree with you more on that.
I've said it many times over the years that these left libertarians that want to go to war with us, it's like just go be the best leftists.
Yes exactly, go be that like, why not um, all right.
Well listen Jeremy, it's always a pleasure talking to you, brother.
Congratulations, Congratulations on the viral success.
Be careful out there and let's do this again sometime soon.
Thanks.
It was great.
Oh, and just anything you want to promote before we get out of here?
Follow me on X, Jeremy Kaufman.
Every libertarian has to come to Mecca at least once.
So make sure you've planned your trip to New Hampshire.
Porkfest is a great time and is the like sort of consensus best time of the year.
If you just got to come one time, you'll come to Porkfest.
But you can come anytime you're here.
Come to New Hampshire if you made it this far in the show.