Dave Smith and Robbie the Fire Bernstein dissect Ben Shapiro's inflammatory claims that questioning Israel implies hating Jews, rejecting this false dichotomy while analyzing Lindsey Graham's call to "flatten" Gaza. They contrast historical CIA manipulation tactics with current geopolitical traps, critique the double standard in labeling anti-Semitism versus policy criticism of Israel, and warn that emotional overreactions could destabilize the region further. Ultimately, they argue for sober strategic analysis over narrative-driven responses to avoid unnecessary global conflict. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Government Overreach and Surveillance00:07:48
We need to roll back the state.
We spy on all of our own citizens.
Our prisons are flooded with nonviolent drug offenders.
If you want to know who America's next enemy is, look at who we're funding right now.
Every single one of these problems are a result of government being way too big.
You're listening to part of the problem on the gas digital network.
What's up, everybody?
Welcome to a brand new episode of Part of the Problem.
I am Dave Smith.
He is Robbie the Fire Bernstein.
We are going to Europe next week.
Our first time together, going to do some stand-up in Europe.
And we're also going over with the real ass podcast boys, Luis J. Gomez and Zach Amiko, all four of us going to London, Belfast, Glasgow, and Amsterdam.
We'll let the day of jihad pass us by, and then we'll be out there the following week to pick up the pieces.
But anyway, the tickets are selling very fast.
Go to comicdave Smith.com if you want to come out to any of those shows because they're going to sell out soon.
All right, Rob.
Well, it's been quite a few days, a very fascinating week, kind of terrifying week, and a horrible week in many ways.
But let's kind of get into it.
We've got a few videos here that we're going to respond to today.
It is, it's a wild time, man.
You know, we talk about a lot on the show where there are the times where the, like you're in the craziness of a political moment.
And it's always a little bit different, you know, like when these things settle down.
I don't know why.
I know I mentioned it the other day, but the example I always use is the we have to save the Kurds in Syria.
Remember there was a week where like, if you said we should pull out of Syria, it was like, oh, you don't care about the Kurds, you know?
And then like, then that's just gone.
I mean, now if you talk about the Kurds in Syria, even people at CNN will be like, well, what the fuck are you talking about?
No one cares about these Kurds.
But for those two weeks, it was a big deal.
This is obviously that times a thousand, but it's still just that feeling of like when you're in these moments, particularly with something like this where something so horrific happened.
And I understand you just watch like a lot of people are just so emotional about it that it's almost impossible to have a real conversation with them.
That will be the theme of some of the videos that we're going to play today.
But I just feel I feel like an obligation to our audience and just like kind of an obligation as adults who talk about these things to say, look, in these situations, it's our job to like soberly analyze things and actually think strategically, think like, what's actually going on here?
What is this going to lead to?
And make sure we get the facts right.
Because it does seem like so often, you know, as they say, the first casualty of war is the truth.
It seems so often in these situations, it's like a rush, a mad scramble to like, well, this is what's happening here.
And then if you point out anything at all, it's like, oh, so what are you on the terrorist side?
Like, you know, like if they go like, well, Hamas called for a day of jihad tomorrow.
And you're like, well, that's actually not what they said.
Like they called for a day of mobilization and that they wanted the Muslims in Israel to protest and to confront the Israeli military.
However you feel about it, like that's what the guy said.
Not saying some Muslim somewhere.
I'm ready to jihad tomorrow.
Yeah, I know.
You got your jihad boots out.
I was ready to go.
No, I'm all and I'm not saying you can't jihad.
I'm just saying you won't.
You might be the only one at the mall.
Yes, you might.
You won't be following Hamas's explicit directives.
That's my only point, which I know makes you uncomfortable.
But anyways, just even if you point that out, you're like, well, that's not actually what they said.
Oh, so you're defending Hamas?
You're on there.
You're like, well, I'm trying to get to the bottom of like what's what's right here.
Like, it's almost like everyone, you know, this was true in COVID too, where, and Fauci even like admitted this, right?
Like that he was telling the noble lie.
Like it's this idea is that you're, it's like, well, I'm on the right side.
And so whatever I say to get you to have the correct reaction is kind of a noble thing to do, right?
Like I'm, yeah, okay, it's not fat.
It's like, no, that's not actually what we believe.
What we believe is like, we want to know the facts of what's happening here.
So there's just a lot of that going around.
I don't know, Rob, do you have any just additional thoughts in general on what's been happening since the last time we talked a few days ago?
On the point of the noble lie, they do that with, it's kind of the global warming move as well.
But anytime you need to rely on lies to be persuasive, it's usually because your noble agenda isn't actually all that noble.
Because if it was, you could probably sell it on honest terms and people would be on board.
But before we get into this, just because like, you know, you really got to make sure your position's clear on these things now.
I just want to make it, I'm not into baby murder.
I just want to make that clear because you really got to make sure your position's clear.
Because if you don't really grandstand on any aspect of the morality of being against any aspect, people just assume that's what you're into and supporting.
So just to start the conversation, my personal take, and you might feel otherwise, but I don't like the baby murder.
It is something though that it does seem like you, you, like that can't be a presumption.
Like we can't have a conversation where like it's a given that we're all against baby murder.
It really is true.
And then like, even if you say you're against it oftentimes, you didn't say it well enough.
Like you didn't like, look, we're going to see an example of that very early on.
I think in the first video that we go to.
I will tell you, man, like there's the other thing about it that is really so crazy.
So I've made this point.
I just, I had a debate with Ben Dominic on, it's up on Fox News's website.
Will Kane hosted it.
I got to give a shout out to Will, who was really, you know, I didn't really know much about the guy.
I know he used to be at ESPN and he went over to Fox News.
He, me and him have never talked before.
He reached out to me and asked if I would be willing to debate Ben Dominic with him, him moderating.
And I was like, sure, let's do it.
And I really, I went into it just being like, this is a Fox News guy.
This is going to be, I assumed it was going to quite possibly be a two-on-one type situation, or at the very least, it was going to be, he was going to control the framing to make it a kind of like, how dare you take this position?
And he did not at all.
He was like a total, I described it as he was a remarkably fair moderator, asked really good questions, tough questions of me and tough questions of Ben.
I thought he was rich.
So anyway, you guys can go check that out.
It's up on, if you follow me on Twitter, I tweeted it.
If not, it's up on Fox News.
You can find it, foxnews.com somewhere.
But yeah, it's Will Kane's podcast.
But anyway, so, you know, one of the things that I was making the point on his show was that, you know, look, the point of terrorism is always to goat you into a reaction.
I mean, maybe not always, but just about always.
The Goal of Terrorism00:07:51
That's the purpose of these things.
And so like Osama bin Laden, of course, if as you guys, I assume everyone knows this, right?
That he was trained by our CIA, the Mujahideen in Afghanistan in like 1979, 1980.
And their whole plan was to lure the Soviets into a war in Afghanistan because Afghanistan is kind of known as like the place where empires go to die.
And I think, I believe it was Zbignou Brzezinski who said, we want to give them their own Vietnam.
Like they saw how much Vietnam hurt us and degraded our culture and, you know, like, you know, contributed to the bankrupting of the country and all these things.
And they were like, oh, yeah, we want to lure them in there and then fight these guerrilla fighters in this kind of unwinnable war.
And it worked very well.
Many people credit that with what brought the Soviet Union to the point of fall into that trap twice.
Right.
But this was explicitly the goal of Osama bin Laden.
And it is pretty remarkable that our central intelligence agency trained him on how to do that and we still weren't smart.
You know what I mean?
Like, obviously that's not the answer.
There's a lot of money made in that war.
But the fact that going in there, you would think, you would think that the CIA would be able to go, well, hey, here's the plan.
So we're like, even if it was like, so we're going to go over there and take out the al-Qaeda camps, but we're not going to launch a 20-year regime change war against the Taliban because that's giving him exactly what he wants.
No, not only that, but George W. Bush was in.
So he goes, I'll do you one better.
I'm going to invade Iraq too.
And we'll fight a 20-year catastrophe war in Iraq also.
And like, and look, okay, it did not lead to the collapse of the United States of America the way the Soviet war in Afghanistan arguably led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
But if you say, where was America in the year 2000 versus where are we now a couple years after these wars?
I think it's pretty safe to say we are in a severely degraded place from where we were, right?
Like that in almost every sense of the word, our country is far more unstable, far closer to collapse than we were in the year 2000.
When you talk about just like being $30 plus trillion dollars in debt, having our currency tremendously devalued, having our cultural degradation, I mean, all of these things, right?
So anyway, maybe the lesson from that would be that if the attempt of a terrorist is to lure you into an overreaction that will destroy you, you might want to consider that possibility.
If we were to, I doubt there's anyone, and this is from the most, the most like hardcore George W. Bush supporting Republicans.
I doubt anyone would say in hindsight, if we could do it over again, that yes, we should have fought that war in Afghanistan and in Iraq.
Obviously, everyone knows the war in Iraq was all predicated off bullshit and that it did nothing but bring disaster to the region, you know, killed a whole bunch of people.
A lot of our soldiers died.
A lot of our soldiers came home and committed suicide afterward.
It strengthened Iran.
Right.
No, pretty much no.
Even John McCain admitted in his memoir that the war in Iraq was a mistake.
And the war in Afghanistan, we just thought, we fought there for 20 years to overthrow the Taliban and ended up turning the country over to the Taliban with a lot more weapons.
So I doubt anyone could, in hindsight, say we should have fought those two wars, right?
So then if even from the most pro-Israeli point of view, wouldn't it be wise to say like, hey, what type of reaction do you think they're trying to provoke?
And on that note, I don't really know the parameters of the Saudi Arabia deal, but the timing of this would seem to be, hey, let's get the Israelis to be so violent towards the Palestinians that Saudi Arabia goes, we can't work with them.
Which certainly seems to have worked if that was at least the goal.
Now, look, there's a lot of, let's just say, there's a lot of questions, like really important questions.
Like, look, the timing of the Saudi deal, the timing of the Iran deal, the timing of Benjamin Netanyahu's political problems.
Israel was having regular protests.
Some drew hundreds of thousands of people.
There was like, like, I don't know how much anyone was following this, but Israel was basically, and I'm not like so up on the exact details of this, but there was some type of like judicial, what's the word, consolidation that basically Benjamin Netanyahu was changing the country in a pretty fundamental way.
And all of his liberal critics were like, we're like no longer a democracy if this goes through.
It was this huge like thing.
And then all of a sudden you enter this.
The most militarized, most prepared country with supposedly the greatest intelligence force in the world does not see this sophisticated planned attack in their own concentration camp.
It's been developed.
They did not see it coming and they have a six plus hour lack of response to it.
There's just a lot here.
There's a supposed warning from Egypt.
Yes, I did see that reported, supposedly that Egypt had let them know.
You know, Hamas did arise out of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.
There was like a whole connection there where they were like the Palestinian version of the Muslim Brotherhood and then kind of broke off.
So it would kind of make sense that Egypt would have been tipped off.
I did see that report.
I don't know if that's if that's true or not, but I did see it reported that Egypt warned them.
Anyway, there's a whole lot that's fishy here.
And that doesn't mean like jump to the wildest conspiracy, but it certainly does mean like we should ask these questions.
But from the perspective of Hamas, who pulled off a fairly sophisticated attack, you know, like much like with Al-Qaeda, this attack does not seem, let's say this attack does not seem to be consistent with what the image of Hamas was, which is like, oh, they're these kind of very low-level rebels with very few means.
They launch these like homemade projectiles over a wall.
95% of them get intercepted.
This was a sophisticated, coordinated land, sea, and air, you know what I mean, attack that again, infiltrated this incredibly like secure military state.
And so you'd go, okay, if they were able to pull this off, I mean, what, what are the goals here?
I mean, certainly if they did something like this, they're not unaware that obviously they must know.
Like if you're thinking enough to pull off an attack like this, you know Israel is going to respond with overwhelming force.
It seems like perhaps that's the goal.
Like everyone seems to agree that Hamas is not overly concerned with innocent Palestinian life.
It's not as if they wouldn't do something that could lead to innocent people on their side dying.
I think they're quite happy to kill innocent people on the other side and their side.
And I think what's going on here, and like, it's almost like there's this order of like operations.
Like when the attack on Israel happened, it's like the first thing you think, or at least I think this is like what you should think.
Innocent Lives Lost00:08:26
And this is how I felt.
The first thing is you're like, oh my God, this is so goddamn horrific.
Like, Jesus Christ, so many innocent people just fucking slaughtered in these gruesome, horrific, nightmarish ways.
Like, that is just horrible.
Like, kids were killed.
I mean, we can get into some of the details of the claims that are made about how kids were killed, but there's really no question a lot of kids were killed.
Teenagers were killed.
Old ladies were killed.
People were some people just trying to have a nice rave.
They were killed.
It's horrible, horrible stuff.
So that's like the first thing you should feel.
And then like right after that, you're like, oh, my God, so many innocent people are going to respond.
So many innocent people are going to die in Israel's response to this.
And you think about those innocent people dying.
But then I'll tell you like the third thing is you're like, well, what's the response to that going to be?
Like, what is this going to lead to?
I mean, we're already now days into Israel cutting off food, water, medical supplies to over 2 million people.
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All right, let's get back into the show.
Look, it's been a long time since other Arab countries invaded Israel, but this hasn't happened before.
Is that really so out of the realm?
I mean, maybe I guess you could say, look, America basically has propped up all of these other countries.
Egypt wouldn't defy America like that.
Saudi Arabia wouldn't defy America like that.
You know, like, I don't know.
A lot of these countries have been defying America more and more lately.
And I'd be real concerned.
Like, if you're like a real, like, like pro-Israel person or just a person who doesn't want to see more innocent people die, I'd be concerned about that.
I'd be concerned about some type of like global jihadist like movement of Muslims, really everyone flooding Israel to go.
I don't know that it's true that the Muslim world, because the Muslim world, which basically, if you don't know the deal, like in the late 70s, there was basically this deal.
I think they went to Camp David to work it out.
But this is where America basically bought off Egypt and was like, look, we'll give you, I think it was $3 billion a year.
But you fucking are not enemies with Israel anymore.
And you don't have to like, you know, like publicly acknowledge their existence or say you're cool with what they're doing, but you're never like fighting with Israel again.
And then they were like, we'll give Israel billions of dollars if you give this part of like the land back to Egypt.
And that was essentially like their deal.
So, you know, so they've been buying off all of these countries for a while.
And this is what the Abraham Accords were essentially that Donald Trump did.
He claimed they were all a bunch of peace deals.
It was like, ah, we'll give more taxpayer money to these countries if you guys like look the other way on what Israel's doing to the Palestinians.
But you've got like, what is it, like 1.5 billion Muslims or something like that around this area.
And yes, I guess it's been successful from the Israeli perspective, from the American, from the DC perspective, that it's like this system has worked for them to not have an uprising over the treatment of the Palestinians being occupied.
But is it so self-evidently true that if you're just like slaughtering huge swaths of these 2 million people that the entire Muslim world is going to sit by and not have some type of reaction to that?
Because if I were Israel, I'd be pretty concerned about that.
And the entire discussion that like right now seems to be, and you know this is how it happens when like war fever grips everyone.
It's just like, well, what do you mean?
You don't want to kill those bad guys?
Well, let's go get those bad guys.
Oh, are you for the bad guys?
Or are you not for the bad guys?
All right, let's start dropping bombs.
And no one seems to be like, look, if you're concerned about the stability of Israel, wouldn't you be like a little bit concerned about like, let's say the innocent Palestinian life means nothing to you.
You know, that would be our, I think, first objection.
But, you know, even if that doesn't mean anything, wouldn't you go, hey, look, you might be provoking a real reaction here.
And doesn't it seem like you're falling right into this trap?
No one, almost no one seems to be thinking like this.
Not nobody, but, you know, us libertarians and a few other decent people out there.
But anyway, it's been pretty wild to watch the reactions.
Go ahead.
So not in regards to whether or not the other Arab countries are going to unite around against Israel.
At a snapshot, it would seem like Hezbollah and Iran would be incentivized to and everyone else would have financial incentives either because they're aligned with Russia or the United States to not.
But that's outside of my scope of expertise or knowledge at all.
But I was thinking about this today with what we're doing at the moment, or at least the footage I'm seeing of Twitter of the bombing of Gaza.
And it reminds me of in The Godfather.
Remember when they say, oh, now you got to kill the kid?
And they're like, but that's just a boy.
And the guy's like, yeah, but he's going to come back and kill me.
And then he ends up coming back and killing him.
So I wonder if what you see in Gaza now, like, I guess the model the other way would be what we did to Japan, which is we dropped two nukes and I guess we actually managed to get them to submit.
And I don't think anyone in Japan right now is on a blood vengeance for the United States of America.
So there is some historic precedent from, you know, recent history of so brutalizing a country that they actually do fold and then you step in, disarm and make changes.
But it would seem to me the blowback and godfather model of making new enemies to grow up who will always hate you seems to be the more likely of this.
Yeah.
Well, so there's some, look, again, just even if you can get past the morality of it.
Why not go with a movie instead of real life?
Well, well, look, there's first off, if you can get past the morality of the fact that like World War II was, you know, I mean, like, look, Germany and Japan, I think, could both be used as examples in this.
And it was, yeah, we had to slaughter millions and millions of people in order to break them in that way.
It took a lot, you know?
But the other thing about it is that it was not seen.
Like it wasn't because America fought this war against the Nazis and the fascists and the imperial Japanese, it was not seen as the Americans versus the Europeans.
Because we were also on the side of a huge portion of the Europeans, right?
Like the French hated the Nazis and the English hated the Nazis and the Russians hated the Nazis.
And by the end of it, a whole lot of Eastern Europe hated the Nazis.
And, you know, it was like seen as Germany.
And it was not seen as America versus the Asians because the Chinese hated the Japanese.
The Japanese had been brutal to the Chinese, like some fucking crazy biblical level of evil shit that the Japanese did to the Chinese.
So it was just a little bit different where it's like.
Now you're like, okay, let's say Israel like just destroys Palestine, but Israel is like Manhattan sitting in 1.5 billion Muslims.
It's just a whole different like equation.
Recognizing Barbarism in Response00:06:27
So it's like, I don't know exactly how that, this one works out.
I also think we're just, it's a different world in 2023 than it was in 1942.
And I just don't think the world is as gritty as it used to be.
At least the Western world is not.
There will just be so much outrage over that type of like, you know, like killing of civilians.
On that note of the outrage, I also wonder if Israel's playing a bit of a losing game here where they were able to kind of quietly contain Gaza without a lot of news footage.
And now I think there's kind of with Twitter and other media, it seems like there's no escape from that story.
Yeah, I think, I think that's right.
Yeah, I think at least I think so.
And certainly, obviously, like the, you know, the images of like dead Palestinian children or just like wounded Palestinians that they may not be making it into all of the biggest corporate news sites, but they're certainly out there on social media these days.
And it's just, yeah, it's just, it's a different world that we're living in now.
I kind of take images on, I don't know, everything you see affects your soul.
And I almost prefer and wish you didn't see it.
But I also understand that you're not going to actually know the full story for another month or so.
So like I've seen, you know, tragic images of buildings or otherwise, but I also understand that, you know, you could be showing me a building in Ukraine and I won't, you know what I mean?
So it's like, you kind of do have your emotional reaction and you kind of take stock of, oh, if the, if what the image I just saw is true, that's, but you kind of also, I'm a little bit of a, hey, you got to give this some time because you don't actually know what you're seeing until it's validated.
Yeah, no, I know, I know the feeling exactly.
And there has been a lot of, God, I hate to use the regime's term, but there has been a lot of misinformation, you know, out there where you're just kind of like, yo, like you really got to make sure you trust the source that it's coming from and you can try your best to verify it and stuff because it really is.
I mean, I've seen all types of things where there was one going around where it was like, this is an image of Hamas going door to door.
And then you look at him and you're like, they're all in SWAT gear.
What?
This is like a SWAT rage.
This isn't at all like, you know, it's just like things like that.
Okay.
Anyway, so Ben Shapiro has been, I would say, one of the people who's, how do I put this?
You're going to flatten them.
Got to kill them all.
You got to remove them all.
Yes.
Well, you got to get rid of them.
He's making some of the most waves.
And of course, Ben Shapiro is one of the most popular conservative commentators in America right now.
He has been, I would describe, I would say he has been one of the most emotional about this.
Somewhat understandably, I will say.
Look, I mean, Ben Shapiro obviously is an Orthodox Jew.
He has a very strong Jewish identity.
I understand being emotional when your people are attacked in a gruesome way.
However, I think that when you're a political commentator, being emotional doesn't really help you and it can be very blinding.
And look, I know Ben Shapiro in the past has quite eloquently said, I don't have like the quote up here, but he has quite eloquently said that one of the major issues with the left is whenever there's a mass shooting or a school shooting or something like this, they get so emotional and then they're just like, I'm emotional.
You have to support this policy or you're a bad person.
Rather than like actually saying like, well, hold on, let's like think about this soberly.
What really led to this?
What are the causes?
Will this actually solve the problem?
Will this make the problem worse?
Ben Shapiro tweeted this tweet is from earlier today.
He said, if you were fooled by Hamas, it's because you wanted to be fooled.
There are only two possible reasons you wanted to be fooled.
One, you think everyone thinks like you and can't imagine people who think like Hamas.
So you blame Israel for Hamas for Hamas's barbarity.
Or two, you hate Jews.
That's the only options?
He says, these are the only two possible reasons are that you can't possibly fathom that people are as evil as Hamas or you just hate Jews and you want to blame them for everything.
And look, it's just, it's this type of like, again, like I'm trying to be fair here.
I totally understand.
In fact, I'll say this, as a Jewish person, I know you're Jewish too.
I get it a little bit.
Like I feel this way too.
I do still feel some sense of like, like, hey, dude, those are my people who got fucking slaughtered.
It's horrible, you know?
But I just feel like an obligation when we're in this space and talking to not just be an emotional woman about this.
That it's like, no, we have to have like a rational conversation.
Otherwise, what's the point of this?
And so the idea that there's only two possibilities, either you can't fathom as evil or you hate Jews.
That's the only reason why you would ever have any issue with, say, like Israel's response to this.
But it's like, no, well, how about the fact that I like option three, you recognize that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has also been unfair.
Okay.
Option three, option four, you recognize that Israel had a hand in creating Hamas and propping them up for years.
And this was the explicit strategy of Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud party.
You could recognize that.
Option four, you could recognize that innocent people are being killed as horrible and that there are these real barbaric savages, but also recognize that in the response to them, you're never going to just get the barbaric savage.
And you're also going to have to commit the same atrocity of killing innocent people in response.
I'm sorry, this is just, there's not only two options here.
So anyway, there's just a lot of this type of thinking that's going around.
Beyond Binary Options00:14:55
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All right, let's get back into the show.
Here, let's play this.
I thought this was kind of interesting because Ben Shapiro very, let's say was very fiery in calling out Tucker Carlson.
I thought this was interesting because these are probably maybe one and two, but definitely two of the biggest conservative political commentators in America.
So it's kind of interesting to see them clash so much.
It says something about like where we're at in our political, you know, climate that people on the broadly speaking, the right wing, people who Republican voters very much like listen to in large numbers could be like so, you know, kind of at each other's throats about this.
I guess Tucker isn't really at Ben Shapiro's throat.
But anyway, let's let's play this clip.
It's Ben Shapiro responding to Tucker Carlson, and then we'll respond to that.
And again, I want to add my voice to that because I'm a human being.
But the outrage.
Let's pause it right there.
Isn't this such a crazy thing where it's like, it's not just that you have to start by disclaiming that like, and I'd like to add my voice to that because I'm a human being.
I'm also outraged by what's going on here.
And then Ben Shapiro goes, oh, sure, you do.
You sound really outraged.
Like, oh, I'm sorry.
He didn't sound outraged enough.
It can't just start as a given that like, yes, we're all appalled that innocent women and children were killed in the most vicious, brutal way.
Like, really?
Again, I've made this point before that like the kind of Zionist conservatives, they all become the woke as soon as Israel is involved.
Like it's like, oh, yeah, you might say you're not a race.
Oh, yeah, you really convinced me with the way you said that.
Like, what?
This is just insane.
The attitude I seem to pick up on from the Israelis or from Ben Shapiro, it's a little bit what we were saying at the beginning with Fauci thinking it's okay to lie because I need to save lives.
And, you know, I think he was just profiteering for pharma, but, you know, maybe some other people thought, stood behind him and thought we need to get people vaccinated.
It's okay to lie in that regard.
I think some of people look at the past atrocities that have been committed towards the Jews and the position that they live in in Israel.
And I understand I have friends that live out there and they, you know, you live in fear of your neighbors and they have this feeling that if America doesn't give overwhelming support to Israel, then they might not have the resources they need to defend themselves.
Or if there's not an overwhelming support for all the actions of Israel, they might be looked upon in a not favorable way and they can't defend themselves in the way that they need and they're going to die.
And so they have like this overwhelming fear that if everyone doesn't jump on this immediately to claim outrage and total vindication for however Israel reacts, their lives are in danger and that we're endangering them.
But they don't address you and I, we're Americans, we live in America.
What is the strategic U.S. interest in Israel?
And they all just say it as a given that if, you know, if Israel- It's just so self-evidently true that it doesn't even need to be explained.
And so they almost treat us as traitors by just looking to have that conversation because to them it's our safety first.
But as Americans and American voters or what you and I do, which is kind of American political commentators, it's a little bit treasonous to put that first.
Right.
And they view you and I as essentially traitors because we all need to be voices in the outrage game to make sure that we're not traitors to our country.
So they view us as traitors.
Yeah.
Look, I just think it's so unreasonable for Ben Shapiro.
And look, I also understand, like, I can understand someone like Ben Shapiro wanting America to completely have Israel's back.
But couldn't you also understand where it's like, Ben Shapiro, Jews, we are like 2% of this country.
And now you're expecting the other 98% of this country to back up your people without even like offering them like a solid argument as to why it's in their interest.
Because look, there are people being killed all over the world, right?
And we're not backing up all of them.
So it's like you're like, well, no, you have to do it for my people.
And then to do it in a way where you're going when he says, hey, and I'll add my voice to the list.
I think this is appalling.
Like, yeah, sure.
You really sound really concerned.
Like, Jesus.
And you're also forcing us to get on board with the narrative that there's no getting along option, which feels a lot like the Russia-Ukraine thing, where if we don't fight Russia here, they're invading the entire country.
And already it's a year later.
And what's the story going to turn out for Ukraine when we end up, we did not get the support that we needed to actually see the thing through.
And so you have 200,000 or whatever the amount of people dead in Ukraine because we talked them into a war that we didn't actually back them on.
Yep.
Well, there'll be some rationalization.
All right, let's keep playing.
One of them took to a bullhorn and started yelling about it.
I get it.
But no one would think to do that about the 100,000 American young people murdered every year.
Because who are you yelling at?
Who are you yelling at?
First of all, people are on bullhorns yelling about drug overdoses and the open border all the time.
All the time.
What is he even talking about?
What he's attempting to do is minimize what happened in Israel.
He's not attempting to maximize what happened in the United States.
He's attempting to minimize as though America can't walk and chew gum, morally speaking, at the same time, which is absurd.
And those two things are nothing alike.
I'm sorry, that is not alike.
It is not alike for drug smugglers to smuggle drugs over the border, which someone then takes and shoves into their arm and they die of an overdose.
That is not the same thing.
I promise you, it is not the same thing as a terrorist breaking into your home and murdering your children in their beds in front of you and dragging your wife off to be raped in Gaza.
That is not the same thing.
Pretending that it is a moral, it's a moral blight.
It's idiocy.
It's just moral stupidity at the highest level.
Of course we should care about what happens with fentanyl.
Of course we should care about, we should close our border.
Have I been unclear about this?
Of course America should have closed borders when it comes to this sort of stuff.
I'm on the same side as Tucker on that.
I just don't understand why he's not on my side when it comes to Hamas has to be wiped off the face of the earth.
So that's that's the clip there.
And I just think there's a lot of really there's a lot interesting there because of course he's not at all addressing what Tucker's point is.
Right.
So when Tucker goes, he goes, look, we have American politicians who are reacting to what happened in Israel like this is the most important thing ever.
Meanwhile, we are like collapsing here as a country and rattles off a few examples of like really horrible things happening here.
And Ben Shapiro is going, oh, I promise you, those are not the same things.
Those are not the same things.
And here's why they're different.
Here's why this one is so much worse.
He goes, yeah, Ben, this is the point.
Here's another difference between them.
One is happening to Americans.
That's another big difference.
One is happening in our country and the other is happening in a faraway country.
And like, yeah, nobody, obviously Tucker Carlson is not making the point that you would like, it's different to have your kid and wife killed in front of you than it is to like OD on drugs.
Obviously, the point is not that those are the same things.
The point is more like, look, there's, there's things like that happening throughout all of Africa, I'd say.
Like the entire continent of Africa.
There's just horrific things like this happening all the time.
But like, why are our politicians more concerned about fixing every other problem in the world than fixing the problems that we have at home?
Now, you may not agree with Tucker Carlson on that, but that's a reasonable perspective for an American to have.
And for you to just be lecturing him and then making this ridiculous point, which by the way, I have argued this before with Jewish people.
This seems to be kind of like a Jewish argument.
I particularly remember having this argument with a rabbi where he goes, what you're doing is minimizing what happened in Israel.
You're not maximizing what's happened here.
You're minimizing what's happened in Israel.
And you're like, wait, what?
How do you get to determine which one of those two things he's doing?
Maybe he is maximizing what's happening here.
Like, what?
It seems like a non-sequitur from the point Tucker's making, which is why are we prioritizing that over something that's causing more deaths here?
And that just seems like a non-sequitur to go, well, you're minimizing.
Well, I don't know that I'm minimizing.
What I'm saying is we have a finite amount of resources.
And I think from a practical standpoint, if we're worried about death, we have something that's killing more Americans.
So we should prioritize this other thing.
I don't know.
It's like it's like a non-sequitur argument.
Well, I remember that.
So one time I debated this rabbi about that.
It was back during, it was in 2021.
It was when, do you remember when the Libertarian Party of Kentucky put out that thing about the yellow stars?
They had like a thing like, why don't we put yellow stars on all the unvaccinated people?
Yes.
Right.
And so he was, his argument to me was he goes, it's minimizing the Holocaust because it's saying that the COVID passport is the same.
It's equating that to the Holocaust.
And in the Holocaust, 6 million Jews died.
So how could you equate something not nearly as bad to the Holocaust?
If you're equating that, then you're minimizing what happened in the run-up to the Holocaust.
And I was like, well, no, I mean, you could just as easily argue that it's maximizing the Holocaust and saying, oh, my God, we can't go down the path of anything remotely similar to this because this was the worst thing ever, right?
Like this is such a weird like perspective for you to just claim that's what it's doing, where it's like you could with the same amount of weight, make the opposite argument, which is that they're saying the Holocaust was so horrible that we can never pursue anything that's even close to the run up to it.
It just gets into these like Talmudic, like, you know what I mean, like arguments where you're like, ah, dude, is your, is your strategy here just to exhaust me so that I can't argue anymore?
It's a Jew point system for something that doesn't exist in reality, which is them imposing on you that you don't feel the proper level of guilt for something that you can't affect because it was 100 years ago.
Out of respect for the proper level of guilt that you're supposed to feel based off of my analysis of guilt levels, you're minimizing and therefore not holding the right amount of guilt.
What are you talking about?
It's like some algorithm that you and I don't see.
They're like looking into a guilt matrix of the amount that everyone needs to feel so that Jews can have their way and complain.
And it's, it's a crazy thing also to expect, to expect out of non-Jews.
Like, I understand kind of like, and there is a thing where, like, like Jews will look to other Jews and be like, hey, like, you should feel really horrible about this attack, what just happened in Israel.
It's like, these are your people, like, you're Jewish.
And there are people like, like, like Hamas would kill you and your family if they had the opportunity to, you know, because they just hate you and your people so much.
And okay, there's a fair point to that, you know?
But when you're talking to somebody who's not Jewish and they go, listen, I think what happened there is absolutely horrible.
I'll be the first as a human being.
This is just a goddamn nightmare.
And you go, nope, not good enough.
You didn't sell it.
I don't really believe you don't care.
Like, what?
What are you doing?
It's just so like unreasonable to expect that.
Like, if someone says something like that, I feel like the proper response to that is to be like, okay, thank you.
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
You know what I mean?
Like, I don't know.
I just find the whole thing so bizarre.
But look, it's, I'll say it's that, and it's fine.
It's just if Ben Shapiro had not made his bones battling identity politics, I would be somewhat more forgiving of him on this subject.
But it's like, look, that's fine.
Like, you can be an identitarian.
But, but you made your whole career, like you blew up based off the evils of identity politics.
So keeping that in mind, let's go to this next ties in too close to the tricks that you pull for empowering the deep state, the war machine, and more money for, you know, defense contractors.
This all falls into the same racket.
So while in this case, yes, there might have been a legitimate tragedy, you're pulling the same tricks that you pull, which has the evil recourse of, what are you trying to drum up with a fight with Iran right now?
Are you trying to get Americans into a war with Iran because they're empowering terrorism in the region?
Like, and by the way, how much of these arms are going to turn out that they ended up from Afghanistan or being resold from Ukraine?
Yeah.
Who knows?
These problems are because we've put fights and ammo and other military supplies into the world.
And I'm sorry, but you just have this thing where it's like, look, after 9-11, every goddamn neocon in this country was like, we got to invade Iraq.
And it's like, oh, but isn't Iraq the country that you've wanted to invade for over a decade now?
And they're like, yeah, but because of this tragedy, we have to do it.
And it's the same thing with Iran.
Before anyone's even presented a shred of evidence that this had any Iranian connection, there's already talk about like, oh, Joe Biden unfroze their money.
And then look what happens here.
Analyzing the Israel-Palestine Dynamic00:16:57
You're like, is okay.
Is there a connection?
I'm not ruling out the idea that there is.
Maybe there is.
Can I see some evidence of that before we just start talking about the war that very conveniently you've wanted for the last 20 years?
Hmm.
Funny how that works out, you know?
And so like, and then you have these guys like Lindsey Graham, a U.S. senator calling to flatten Gaza.
A U.S. senator publicly saying, flatten this area containing over 1 million kids.
Over 1 million kids, 15 and younger in Gaza.
Lindsey Graham says, flatten them.
Which war has Lindsey Graham?
He's cheerleaded every goddamn war over the last 20 years.
He's been wrong about every single one of them.
And he still doesn't hesitate the day the event happens to go flatten them.
And you're like, whoa.
Like, no, I'm sorry.
As horrible as this event was, no, no, we don't just start listening to Lindsey Graham, who's been wrong about fucking everything.
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All right, let's get back into the show.
All right, let's go.
Let's go to this next Ben Shapiro video and kind of talk about this a little bit because he gets into a bit more of this kind of identitarian stuff.
This was him on Piers Morgan.
It seems to me, is the reaction of the world when George Floyd was murdered, which was a despicable killing.
And the police officer concerned is now serving a life sentence, quite rightly.
But that sparked enormous global protests over America, over the UK, everywhere, with people marching in protest at what they perceived to be a racist murder of one person.
And yet the reaction within hours of what happened here, where, as we knew at the time, nearly a thousand people in Israel had been murdered, some in the most utterly horrific circumstances.
The reaction was that, yes, there were big protests again, but they weren't really protests.
They were marches of celebration in America, in the UK.
They marched down my local high street celebrating what had happened, pro-Palestinian marches.
I found that extraordinary.
Jew hatred is a very real thing.
It's a very real thing.
And we've obscured it with a lot of talk about Zionism and anti-Zionism.
And we've obscured it with a lot of talk about geopolitics and context.
But in the end, it's quite real.
And when you see crowds in Sydney chanting gas the Jews, not free the occupied territories, not make a peace deal, gas the Jews.
I'm not sure what we're supposed to read into that other than people mean what they say when they say gas the Jews.
Yeah.
I mean, that's exactly right.
So let's just pause it already.
Look, I don't know.
I know there were a couple like pro-Palestinian marches.
I know there was one in New York City.
I did not see any tape of people chanting gas the Jews.
I did.
You did?
Yeah, I think I saw it on Twitter.
The problem is it gets such a fucking jumble where it's like, did I actually see them or was that the subtext?
But I'm pretty sure I saw that video make around.
Oh, it was by the staircase.
I want to say it was Australia.
I don't remember, but I did see it.
Okay.
Well, I'll first say, yeah, like fuck any of those guys who are screaming gas the Jews.
There's, I certainly have seen some, it's usually like really unhinged left-wingers who, and perhaps some like extreme far right guys who were like, yeah, like the Jews got what they deserve or like kind of celebrating the Hamas attack.
You're an insane sick, twisted person if you're at that level.
If you're at the level where you think that innocent people who not military targets, forget how you feel about the occupation, but that like old ladies and children deserve to be slaughtered in the most horrific way, you have lost the plot and lost your humanity.
Fuck all of those guys.
I'm fine with saying that.
I don't think this overall narrative that Piers Morgan and Ben Shapiro are trying to create jives with reality.
He kind of starts by being like, you know, George Floyd gets killed.
It's a whole big thing.
But this thing here, Hamas, happens and like, everyone's just celebrating Hamas doing this.
You're like, excuse me.
The entire world has stopped to focus on what's going on on Israel.
It has been, there's not, it's not just been the biggest news story in the world.
It's been the only news story in the world since it happened.
The overwhelming most powerful governments and most powerful people in the world are ready to commit to leveling Palestine.
It's just not true that like everyone cared about George Floyd dying and no one seems to care about what's happening with the Jews here.
And then for like.
You know, Ben Shapiro does this thing where it's like, it's not about Zionism versus anti-Zionism.
It's about Jew hatred.
And it's like, look, I'm not saying there are no people who chanted gas the Jews.
I'm not saying I saw a few crazy like takes on social media about how Hamas was justified in what they did.
I think all of that's insane.
But the idea that that's not the vast minority, the idea that like that is actually the overwhelming, like the overwhelming response, I think, has been that like, yeah, this is horrific.
What happened?
That's my point.
I guess I'll take the other side on this one, which is not to say that there is a majority of people with these feelings, but the fact that people feel comfortable making large public demonstrations.
Yeah, well, there's something to be said for that.
Yeah.
Because imagine if straight up Nazis, we saw what happened the one time, you know, a few of them tried to stand up for a statue.
So the fact that there's this many people that feel comfortable getting together in Times Square.
Well, let me just say, let me just devil's advocate, your devil's advocate, because I don't know exactly, but of those demonstrations, like what percentage of the people there are actually like, oh yeah, gas the Jews.
And what percentage of them are like, oh my God, like, you know, there's about to be so many dead people in Palestine.
You know what I mean?
Like, so like, cause there could, there is like a legitimate thing to protest there as well.
So I don't know exactly, regardless of what the numbers are, you, you can't just say, oh, this isn't about Zionism.
It's about Jew hatred when you're like, well, what about for some people if it is about Zionism?
Or if it is just about like, I don't know, maybe this is about, this is about the occupation.
Or, you know what I'm saying?
Like there's certainly like.
I think more often than not, the anti-Israel rhetoric is just anti-Semitism is an annoying diversion so that you don't have to actually have a conversation about what Israel's doing that might not be to the highest of mortal standards.
Well, and Ben Shapiro has used this tactic before when I've heard him back in the day say that like, oh, all of the people who say they're anti-war and anti-Federal Reserve, that's really just a cover for they hate Jews.
Right.
And you're like, oh, okay, but what about like, it's totally legitimate for me to be like, I don't hate Jews.
I hate war in central banks.
You can't just say there's no one like that.
How about the Mises Institute named after Ludwig von Mises?
Ideas carried on by Murray Rothbard.
An organization started by Jews who hate wars in central banks.
And so you can't like, okay, fine.
Like if you want to say, hey, there are these people out there who just hate Jews, then like, fine, okay, fair enough.
And like those people should be like, you know, criticized.
But there's also a whole lot of people out there.
And I would venture to guess a lot more who it's not motivated by that.
It's motivated by like the actual point that they're making.
All right, let's keep playing.
I mean, this is, this is Nazi language.
I mean, but as you say, the difference between this and the Nazis, the Nazis tried to keep the secret.
Whereas this is all in plain sight.
I mean, the idea of people doing this in cities.
Nazis were pretty outspoken about their Jew hatred for the record.
Anyway, let's keep it.
It's actually terrifying.
And I say that again.
I'm an Irish Catholic.
I'm not Jewish.
I feel terrified for Jewish people.
Like you say, there's only 15 million Jewish people in the world.
It must be when this kind of thing happens in such an indiscriminate manner.
It must be genuinely terrifying for people.
For sure.
And obviously, when you see marches of support, the question is always asked, how could the Holocaust have happened?
And the answer is this way, when people are actively in favor of Jews being murdered simply for being Jews.
And again, it's easy.
People have an amazing ability to justify whatever it is that they're thinking or feeling at a given time.
But if you can find a way to justify yourself out of the murder of babies in their cribs, I have a hard time figuring.
Even this is technically inaccurate.
I think I read about Thai workers at that kibbutz that were killed.
So they weren't even killed for being Jewish.
They were killed for being in the area that they were in.
Now, I'm not saying that they should be killed for being in the area that they're in.
I'm not making any statement whatsoever.
I'm just saying it's technically inaccurate to say that those individuals were killed for being Jews.
That's not why they were killed.
They were actually killed for being in a particular location at a particular time.
Well, and I also just think that taking on, look, as I said before, sure, I agree with Ben Shapiro.
If you can justify killing babies in their cribs, then like, yes, you're a fucking bad person.
But this does just seem like it's like, you're not actually taking on what the overwhelming majority of the critics of Israel are saying.
And yet again, you can claim they don't really mean what they're saying.
They mean something.
They really hate Jews, but it's like, that's just not what the, there's a whole lot of like, there's a long tradition of people, serious people who have been very critical of Israel's policies.
Look, you can find, there was this tape circulating today.
You know, I actually meant to retweet it and then I lost its place on Twitter, but it was an old clip of Pat Buchanan, and it's from like around 15 years ago.
And they were talking about some Israeli attack in Gaza that killed like a few hundred civilians.
And he goes, look, you know, there were, I forget exactly what he says, but he's like, look, there was like, you know, these like a few little girls who were killed in Gaza.
He goes, what do you think all of their brothers are going to grow up to be?
What do you think all of these family members are going to grow up to be?
Who do you think they're joining?
They're going to, they're going to join Hamas.
Like, that's who these guys are all going to go with.
And then like he's arguing with either a rabbi or some Jewish guy or something like that.
And the Jewish guy's like, will you condemn Hamas?
Will you condemn Hamas right now?
And he's like, yeah, of course, I condemn Hamas.
I'm just saying, what do you think these people are going to be?
And it's like this very interesting clip.
And then it was like 15 years later that this happened.
I don't know if any of those people were like actually relatively like if Pat Buchanan got it that right, but it's just the point of like a criticism like that cannot be reduced to you hate Jewish people.
It just can't.
And it's also, it's also this really dumb line of argument where you where you go, that's also not letting those people off the hook, morally speaking.
It's not okay to go kill innocent people because someone innocent you knew was killed, but it's just a matter of analyzing the situation and going, this policy is likely to produce more of this.
And also this policy is evil and it's likely to produce more evil.
That's, you know, that's like take on that argument and then let's see what we can, what we can come up with here.
I'd like to see, I'd like to once out of these guys, like hear a response to the smartest version of the critique rather than just the most evil one that is really not representing a majority.
I mean that it's anything other than Jew hatred.
And so it's, you know, as a Jew, as a person who, you know, is very strongly Jewish.
I'm very active in my Jewish community, a person with four kids and a wife and parents and sisters and all of this.
You know, obviously, Jews feel like they are at risk everywhere because of this sort of activity.
And I will say there's an amazing double standard when it comes to anti-Semitism and its treatment in the media.
The way that it seems to work in the media these days is if somebody politically says something about George Soros, then they will be labeled a Nazi.
And if somebody actually says I am a Nazi, then they will say, well, there's probably some sort of justification over territorial disputes.
Yeah.
I want to end, Ben.
Let's pause it there and we can end it there.
I just got to cover the baby thing.
Huh?
You know what?
We'll get on that on the next episode.
But I just want to say about this: that again, he's like, look, I get his point.
If someone says they have a problem with George Soros, they'll be called the Nazi or something.
I get the point he's making there.
But then he goes, if someone says, you know, says, I'm a Nazi, they're going to say, oh, it's a territorial dispute.
It's like, no, this is specific to the Israel-Palestine dynamic.
Because like, yeah, the territorial dispute is a pretty big part of this, man.
And it has been since 1948.
They've been fighting over land.
That's what the fight is over.
And so to not mention that, and by the way, no, I don't really think anyone in Hamas is saying, I'm a Nazi.
I think they're saying like Allah Akbar, but whatever.
But the idea that there's a double standard in the media where someone could say they're a Nazi or say something against Jews.
Do you remember that guy, Sanchez, who worked for CNN?
Okay.
So there's a guy who worked for CNN, Sanchez.
This is maybe like 15 years ago, something like that.
He made a comment about Jews.
He's talking about Jon Stewart.
He didn't like Jon Stewart.
And he was like, I don't really like Jon Stewart.
You know, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
That guy's annoying.
He's like a smartass or something.
And he was, he, this guy, Sanchez, is a Hispanic guy.
And he was like, he doesn't know what it's like to be a minority in this country, blah, blah.
And the radio host goes, I believe it was Pete Dominic.
And Pete goes, he goes, well, I mean, Jon Stewart's Jewish, so he knows what it's like to be a minority.
And he goes, yeah, Jews are really minorities in this country.
They're so oppressed, those Jews.
I guess all the people who own CNN are real oppressed minorities.
And he was not on air the next day.
Really?
You know, like the idea that you can just like, that you can just be an anti-Semite in the media and there will be no, yeah, you could just be a Nazi.
Don't tell, just openly identify as a Nazi.
You'll have no problems.
CNN will be like totally fine with you, right?
I mean, Canada might give you a round of applause, but that's only if you're on their side of the Ukraine war, right?
So like, it's like, no, actually, I just don't think this is a fair, accurate representation of reality that the corporate press is not with you on this, Ben Shapiro.
The entire corporate, if you look at any of the corporate press coverage of all of this stuff, it has been 98% exactly what Ben Shapiro would want.
If you look at the political class in America, 99% exactly what Ben Shapiro would want.
Lindsey Graham has gotten his way on foreign policy nine out of 10 times over the last 20 years.
And by the way, what's actually going to happen here is Israel is going to fucking level Gaza and the U.S. is going to fund it.
That's what's going to happen here.
So I'm just saying there's just this like contradiction between Ben Shapiro's like account of what's going on and reality.
They're not exactly the same.
Political Reality vs. Narrative00:00:34
All right.
Anyway, we do, we do have to wrap there.
We'll get, we still got a lot of fun stuff for the next episode.
Thank you guys very much for listening.
Anything you want to mention before we get out of here, Rob?
Yeah, before we call an episode, if there's one thing you can do is use your reach with a tragedy like this, let people know you have a gig on Saturday night in East Rutherford, New Jersey.
So if you're out in New Jersey, I got a gig.
And so come hang out.
Come see Robin East Rutherford.
Do your part for the Jewish people who have been through so much.