Jose Gallison and James Smith challenge the official 1995 Oklahoma City bombing narrative, alleging a "deep state" cover-up involving John Doe 2 and suppressed evidence like missing surveillance tapes. They detail suspicious deaths of first responders Terrence Yiki and Kenneth Trenadu, citing alleged torture and a million-dollar civil judgment for Trenadu's family. The discussion implicates federal agencies including the ATF, FBI, and CIA in manipulating terrorism events to justify government overreach, drawing parallels to post-9/11 crackdowns and Operation Mockingbird. Ultimately, the hosts argue these incidents were weaponized to expand state power through fabricated conspiracies. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Weaponized Three Minute Hook00:06:34
Fill her up.
You're listening to the Gash Digital Network.
We need to roll back the state.
We spy on all of our own citizens.
Our prisons are flooded with nonviolent drug offenders.
If you want to know who America's next enemy is, look at who we're funding right now.
Every single one of these problems are a result of government being way too big.
You're listening to part of the problem on the Gash Digital Network.
Here's your host, James Smith.
Hey, welcome to a brand new episode of Part of the Problem.
I'm very excited for today's show.
Before we get started, I do want to let you know probably, okay, by the time this is out, the Mises Caucus event has already happened, but I will be at the Funnybone in Albany, at Zaney's in Chicago, at Side Splitters in Tampa.
A bunch of stuff coming up.
ComicDaveSmith.com for all those dates.
Robbie the Fire Bernstein coming with me on all of them.
A lot of cool stuff coming up.
So go check it out there.
All right.
Very excited to have with me as my guest on today's show, Jose Gallison.
I've been on your podcast several times, which I really love.
No way, Jose.
We've had a lot of great conversations from things about Rothbard to family and meaning and purpose and a lot of different topics.
So I'm very happy that this is the first time you're on this show.
Everybody, definitely go check out Jose.
He's got a bunch of great work out there.
Today's show, I know there's a lot of stuff going on in the news.
Tomorrow, me and Rob are going to record a whole podcast about Trump being indicted and the petrodollar falling apart and all that stuff.
But today we want to talk about something that's not in the news exactly, although there is more interest that's been developed lately.
But this is a topic that's really something very interesting, which is the Oklahoma City bombing that happened back in 1995.
Jose, you've become very interested in this topic.
You did a whole series on it on your show.
You brought it up when you were on Tim Poole's show.
And recently it's been getting a lot of attention.
There was the CNN piece about what really happened there, which was kind of out of left field in a way.
So that's what the topic of today's show is going to be.
Well, first off, Jose, thank you so much for coming on.
It's good to see you, bro.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me on.
I'm really excited.
This is really kind of pretty surreal for me because I did, you kind of are what sucked me into this, started me down this thing.
I would suggest people, you'll get the sentiment I'm getting at if you go check out my Rothbard episode we did because I was fanboing then and now it's come back full circle and here we are.
And you did bring up the current events aspect, but I think after we talk about this Oklahoma City story, I think you'll realize why it's still relevant to this day beyond the whole news cycle thing and how it informs stuff today.
And that there are basically still people in positions of power, as is the nature of the deep state, that are involved in this story.
And yeah, so this is, I think it's a story that still matters to this day very much.
Even if you take away the actress part, it kind of allows you to see the mechanisms of the deep state and kind of lets you identify those patterns and see how they're operating today with things like January 6th.
I don't know if I'm allowed to mention that anymore.
So sorry, you can edit that out later, Brian.
You know, the Michigan kidnapping, all sorts of stuff, a lot of stuff going on with the Trump indictment, all sorts of stuff.
It informs everything, I think, once you start kind of seeing it.
And there's so many different actors in this story.
It's such a wide web.
I've done over 10 hours on the topic with the great Richard Booth, who is basically the crip keeper of the OKC archive for the Libertarian Institute.
Yeah, absolutely.
And in a lot of ways, one of the important takeaways from this story is that I think a lot of people kind of feel, and understandably so, because of everything that's happened with COVID and Trump and all of the insanity over the last few years, they almost feel like this stuff just started.
You know, like, oh, it's America was going so good until the last few years when this all became a huge issue.
And you're like, oh, actually, this has been going on for quite a while.
Let me ask you before we get into the kind of going through what happened back in 1995.
What obviously you just kind of gave us a little bit of an indicator, but what got you so interested in this story?
Really?
It was as simple as a little like three minute video I saw online.
There's this guy, Crack Connoisseur at Crack Connoisseur on Twitter.
He's known as Jinx is his name.
He's kind of like a schizoid conspiracy poster, but he puts out little videos and he put out one on Terrence Yiki.
And it was a little three minute video.
It just perfectly hit.
It was a little edit is what they call them on Twitter, a little video with music and kind of little blurbs, newspaper, just pictures, et cetera.
And it just, it told the story and, you know, showed all the different aspects of it real quick.
And you're just like, whoa.
And like that like sucked me into looking into Terrence Yiki.
And then Terrence Yiki is what sucked me into OKC.
And that's kind of why I like pushed the Yeeki aspect.
And now I'm kind of pushing another person who got suicided, Kenneth Trenadu.
And I actually literally just wrote a piece on that dropped on a substack I just made exclusive just for that purpose, just so I could try to gin up some energy for that as well.
Cause I think these are both important stories.
And these type of things, like the, you know, people, people, you know, honest people, you know, suffering at the hands of the state in this manner, I think it kind of tugs at people's heartstrings, speaks to us on a deep human level.
And I think this kind of sucks people into the story, especially like Normie's kind of stuff.
I mean, like, like you said, I've done, I said earlier, I've done over 10 hours on the topic, but that's more for the purpose of someone who's already gotten interested.
Like, but like first, like these, like specifically Kenneth Trenadu, Terrence Hiki, those characters, if you can tell the story to someone, even if it's in a quick three minute little video, I think that is what can draw people in and really suck them into it.
And like you mentioned with the idea of a kind of like the current events type stuff, and it's like we have the weaponization committee going.
Oh, no, what I meant to say is you with like the aspect of, oh, they just started doing this stuff.
No, like, I think that is important point to make to people, especially in light of the like the weapons, weaponization committee stuff going on right now.
If you've been paying attention to that, I think that really ties into it.
Cause I, like you said, there are people today that are like, oh, yeah, we got to focus.
Listen, it becomes this left, right thing, this, uh, this modern day thing.
Like, look how weaponized they become now.
And it's like, no, they've been weaponized from the beginning.
And this is a perfect example, something from 95.
It's still like, there are people still alive today that can remember this that can relate to it.
So that's why I think that's important.
April Sketch And Funny Term00:14:58
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I completely agree.
And let's, so we'll get into that stuff with like the incredibly shady suicides, suicides that suicides that are involved in this story.
For people who don't know, I think you're about my age.
I'm about to be 40.
How old are you?
You're eight years older than me.
Okay, eight years old.
No, I'm saying we're all, we're both in our 30s.
Yeah.
As of right now.
Okay.
Early 30s, your late 30s, but yeah.
All right, we're going to do a show.
No need to be a dick about this.
Whatever.
We're all in our 30s.
That's the point.
But for guys our age, maybe you're a bit younger, and that is a substantial difference, especially with this story.
But in some ways, the Oklahoma City bombing, the Oklahoma City bombing has kind of been overshadowed because a lot of things happened after it, specifically 9-11.
But back at the time, it's hard to overstate what a big deal this was.
I remember it very well.
So this happened on April 19th, 1995.
I was my birthday is April 20th.
So this was the day before my birthday.
I guess I was 12 years old or whatever.
It was just one of those things that it was like, well, way to fuck up my birthday, but whatever.
But I do remember at the time how serious this was.
It was at the time what was dubbed, and I know there's some people who will question this, but it was dubbed the biggest terrorist attack, domestic terrorist attack in American history.
And it was a horrific event.
Basically, there was a state building in Oklahoma City that was blown up.
Something over 160 people died in it.
The most the worst aspect of it was that there was a nursery in the building that got blown up.
Like babies died.
It was horrible.
Hundreds of people were wounded.
This was a major terrorist attack.
The official story shifted a bit, but it became that, okay, Timothy McVay and his one co-conspirator who was a couple states away, they did this.
He was a right-wing militia guy.
And that was basically the lesson we were to learn from all of this was how dangerous the right-wing militias are.
He was tried and convicted and ultimately sentenced to death and executed.
I believe his co-conspirator got life or something like that in prison.
He's still in a scuba max right now.
Yeah.
Right.
So that was, that was basically the official story of what happened.
It was taken in a lot of ways as like a justification for why the, you know, why right-wing extremism was such a big problem in this country, which for people today probably sounds like a somewhat familiar narrative.
The problem is that when you examine this and not even like a deep dive into it, if you scratch the surface on this, you realize how much the official narrative is bullshit.
Like I'm, and, and by the way, it's, it's funny when you first proposed we do this episode, I had mentioned to you that I did an episode with Scott Horton years ago.
Might have been back in like 2015, 2016 on this topic.
But as it's getting more interest, just so people know, I'm an unapologetic OKC truther.
Like I'm just this, now I'm not, there are some, like with all of these things, there are some bullshit conspiracies that are not right, but the official story is transparently not accurate.
And there's a lot more to it.
So what, wherever you want to take it from there, what do you think?
Well, I mean, I think if we're talking about like, especially from a service level, what most people know, the biggest aspect is probably John Doe 2.
This is where you immediately can tell it's nonsense.
It's a John Doe 2 aspect is there was over 20 witnesses, eyewitnesses on the day of the bombing before and after that saw Timothy McVay with another individual.
There are composite sketches out there the police have made.
And, you know, you can look them up on Google.
He really easily pops right up.
This is probably one of the most notable things about Oklahoma City bombing.
And essentially, we had basically the nation's largest manhunt for a couple of months.
And it's funny.
This was in April.
So we had April 19th.
And from April to like April 19 is the start of the biggest manhunt looking for this John Doe 2 guy.
And then in April, May and then May, there was an internal FBI memo where they said they want to put all leads or whatever into abeyance for John Doe 2, which abeyance is just a fancy law enforcement term for essentially don't pursue him.
So behind the scenes, a month later, after doing the biggest manhunt, they decide, hey, we're not doing it.
Hush, hush, but we're not telling the public.
And then the following month, June, they officially, they said their official narrative becomes, oh, there was no John Doe 2, which the irony is the same witnesses, a lot of the same witnesses they use to uphold their case for McVay existing and being the main conspirator were also the same exact people who are saying there was another individual.
So they're essentially saying, yes, we find you credible enough to say that Timothy McVay existed and he was him.
You identified him, but you imagine this other guy.
This guy never existed.
And this even gets to the point to where they get in court.
And Merrick Garland, funny enough, was the one of the main guys in the prosecution against Timothy McVay.
And this is actually, I think, something that came, I want to say it came from some of the aspects.
No, actually, that's a different thing now I'm thinking about.
Sorry, don't make me go down that.
There's so many different drab holes.
I was thinking of something else.
But anyways, Merrick Garland, when he was questioning one of the people, he was asking them to, I forget the stupid court term, where he was trying to get them to, like when they were questioning the witness, the defense, they were bringing up other conspirators and he was trying to get them to, God, I remember such a brain fart of the term, where essentially he was trying to strike it down, being like, no, don't, you don't do it.
God, I feel so dumb.
I can't think of the term.
I'll think of it two seconds from now.
It's a very simple term, but I feel dumb for not being able to think of it.
But he was clearly, it was very obvious the prosecution did not want them to pursue the John Du John Doe II aspect.
They were very clearly trying to hone it in.
So, I mean, there goes our current AG, Merrick Garland, being the one that is essentially trying to is honing it in.
So, and I believe there are things on record later where he said stuff along the lines of knowing there was a John Doe II and stuff like that.
So, you know, our current attorney general was aware of the nonsense and still pursuing it.
And, you know, there's likely John Doe II is probably still out there or, you know, if he died or whatever, he never received justice.
So, I mean, that's the first aspect.
Well, let me just to jump on that, there's some things that are very interesting about this.
And one of them is that, again, I think to some degree, this has been forgotten.
Not so much for people like my age, but for the younger generation, I'm sure this was almost like it just after 9-11, it was almost like this wasn't that big of a thing.
You know, this was they were trying to create this before Islamic extremist terrorism was the big boogeyman to justify the growth of the state.
This was the big boogeyman, right-wing militia, you know, whatever.
This was the big thing.
And there's a lot of reasons for that that we could kind of get into.
But for people who do remember it, and for those of you who don't, take my word for it.
This is what's so interesting.
The sketch artist drawing of Timothy McVay was like the poster of this incident.
And it was an incredible sketch artist drawing.
Like it's, you know, I don't know.
For people who are a little like removed from it, you go, that's really an incredible thing.
Like, I don't know if you've ever like, I mean, I don't know.
I've had people who I saw one time who like committed a crime or something like that.
And I've never tried to give a sketch artist a description of them.
But I'd always like imagine like if I could, I'd be like, I don't know.
He was a dude, you know, like he was fucking, yeah, like, I don't know.
He's kind of like had some eyebrows and a face, but they came up with this, this sketch that really was like went was all over the news that was Timothy McVay.
Clearly, it was him.
Clearly, all of these people had seen this guy.
And that was even the one that you just pulled up there, Brian, was like one of the initial ones.
They got it even more like downpacked than that.
And every single one of the witnesses, the over 20 witnesses all said there was a second guy too.
And then there's a huge manhunt for this second guy.
And then at a certain point, they just go, that they all hallucinated that.
None of that was right.
But the first guy, Timothy McVay, they nailed to a T.
I mean, like they described him to the point where you, if you had just seen this sketch and then saw the guy, you'd have been like, that was the guy.
That was the guy from the sketch.
But then the second guy never even existed.
That's just not even a thing.
And just completely called this off.
And again, at the time, this was the biggest terrorist attack, domestic terrorist attack in American history, as they say.
Babies were murdered and you're like wait, so you're just letting this guy go like there's not even gonna be any and that it was just like, for whatever reason we can get into what the reasons were it was like yes, that's what we're doing, we're blaming this all on this one guy, Timothy Mcvey.
That alone, like makes this thing a huge scandal.
Another another big scandal is the fact that the ATF wasn't there in the building that day.
But uh, for some reason, no one let the kids know or anyone else.
I believe there's a social security office as well, so i'd assume there's probably a bunch of elderly people uh, but yeah, no one.
Uh, no one chose to let them know.
Uh, there also was prior to the bombing I want to say it was something like eight in the morning there was like bomb sniffer dogs that were seen at the federal courthouse and at the uh and at the uh Murray building, which was the building that was blown up.
Uh, but yeah the uh, the.
According to a witness, that was uh or one of the people that was caught on camera by some news reporter.
I can't remember the specific uh, you know which one it is, but you can actually, if anyone wants to know, hit me up, or hit up uh, Richard Booth uh Booth, underscore Okayc on twitter.
Go hit him up, he'll be able to provide you with.
I believe there's the recording of it where there was someone saying that uh, they one of the people that was looking for their wife in the wreckage or just kind of trying to find them, and that they were telling the reporter that they had talked to an ATF agent there and the ATF agent had told them they all got a beeper to not come in that day.
Their official narrative later became that they had a all-night surveillance mission which uh, Richard Booth, I think, has a good theory that he thinks that was probably connected to the uh right, the bomb sniffer dogs the night before.
So it's like their cover was also kind of uh, you know, kind of implicates them to some extent possibly.
Um so yeah, it's a, it is a whole boondoggle.
This uh, this whole mess.
Uh, there's a, it really is, and it's funny people bring up like about this being relevant.
Today i've gotten some comments, the you know uh, about people like why does this even matter.
It's like well, this is the nature of these things, like these events happen, big events, and we don't really get the real story to.
A lot of times decades later, if anything, this is almost, you know, sooner on schedule than most major events like this, and so that's what I actually think is kind of interesting, because we're in a spot where we have, if you dig into the story, I suggest people go check out my series there's plenty of other resources that I can suggest for people as well but like dig into it and you'll see how much is there and how damning this is and how many different agencies involved and people in power involved.
And yeah it's, it's like it's a story that it's just like waiting to blow up, if it can kind of just push past this threshold, threshold.
And it's like, if you look at other things in the past, things like, I don't know mk, ultra or other things that have become declassified, it seems to it seems to be my opinion it seems to take longer, but I don't know if it's because we're in the spot, this like information age, to where things are moving quicker that now you know things are spreading, to where they have to start releasing information quicker, and so I just think we should lean into that and move even further and like.
People are like, oh my god, we have these things, current things, today.
It's like, okay, but this informs the things of today and if you can nail this, you can nail, you can get uh, you can get people to buy into that.
The the Michigan governor kidnapping plot was complete, Complete nonsense.
Or the January 6th is complete nonsense, because people are like, What are you?
You think there were feds involved?
This like, yes, look at this story.
The documents are there.
The sources are there.
Look at it.
It's obvious.
Like, if you look at the story, like they were infiltrated, there were ATF informants.
There was FBI things.
There were CIA connections.
It is insane when you start digging.
And this isn't like kook stuff.
This is legit stuff.
Like we try to straight, Booth is Richard Booth, who's my expert in the story.
We've been very good about straying away from the kook stuff.
I mean, there are kook things.
You know, I mean, we can go into some of the kook stuff, but like, I highly suggest people, you know, go check out Booth's stuff.
It's great, but go on.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And I think it's like the importance of it is like that, as you said, that it informs what's going on today, particularly when so many of the players are the same players who are involved in today.
And also, as I kind of alluded to earlier, I think that there's this big misconception, not so much in like our camp of like the hardcore people who are like our hardcore, you know, like guys kind of know what's up to some degree at least.
But there is a bigger perception that like, you know, the media used to be non-partisan and now all of a sudden they're just in, you know, they're in the game of, you know, whatever activism.
You know, MSNBC used to be of a real news channel and now they're just like, oh, they're just a shill for the Democrats.
And you realize a lot of this divide, it's not about left or right.
It's not about, it's not anything that just happened.
It's just that the corruption bubbled over to the top so much that now they feel like they have to play this role.
But really, even back then, when people knew, so many people involved knew that like on the biggest story of the day where children were murdered, like the highest stakes imaginable, they knew the official story was bullshit and they still covered it up.
And that's the fact that, you know, like now, by the way, as you pointed out, there are these kind of like, you know, there's kooky conspiracies that came out.
There's also like, I kind of understand where I get where after people see Cheney and Bush manipulate 9-11 and they manipulate it to get the goals that they wanted from the time of the project for a new American century.
Like they wanted to overthrow Saddam Hussein and then 9-11 happens and then they use that to overthrow Saddam Hussein.
Sheath Underwear Sponsor Plug00:02:47
And you go, so that means they must have planned it.
And like, I understand thinking that it doesn't necessarily mean that, but what it does mean is that they exploited this.
And it does, it does seem like with the Oklahoma City bombing that there was this like, you know, whether or not they're say like the Timothy McVay's partner was like, oh, we're protecting this guy because he was our guy.
That's not necessarily the case.
It could just be that they were like, well, we got to get someone for this.
And we got Timothy McVay and it'll make our case weaker if we admit that there's another guy who we don't have.
And then at trial, they could be like, well, maybe he's not the only guy.
Maybe he was coerced into this.
Maybe he was, they would give, it would give some wiggle room to the defense.
So they just went, fuck it.
We won't go get that guy who was also involved in murdering babies, you know, like, and that's still so bad.
Like that's still, that's, and that's the best case scenario.
And that's still really bad that that's what all of these people, many of whom who are still in power would have decided to do.
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All right, let's get back into the show.
You brought up media and that sparked a good story.
I think you'd like.
Surveillance Tapes Inside Museum00:16:09
This goes to the surveillance tapes.
There were over 20 surveillance tapes.
These are things that have been revealed through FBI documents.
I believe it was through FOIA requests.
There was over 20, and it was also, I believe, revealed by Danny Coulson, who is a former FBI.
I forget what role he had, but it was high up.
But there was over 20 surveillance tapes.
They all obviously all got taken by the feds and magically disappeared.
I think their official story is something along the lines of we lost them or some nonsense like that.
It's confirmed that at least two of these ones were actually able to witness the bombing itself and the kind of truck had that view.
And there was later, there are documents that show, once again, go to go to libertarianinstitute.org, go check out their OKC archive.
You can literally go to the search bar.
Then type in surveillance tapes or whatever, and it'll bring up your stuff.
But look into it.
There was, there are documents.
This 100% happened.
There was an FBI agent who went to, I want to say it was Dateline NBC and brought them one of the surveillance tapes.
And somehow, I don't know if they took it from Ebsenslocker or whatever, and they were offering them the surveillance tapes for a million dollars.
I think it was like $1.1 million or something.
And lo and behold, Dateline NBC had an informant in there and let them know and that got nixed real quick.
And these are things that we know of.
And also, I believe in the documents, you can see that it did say in there that you could see the people getting out of the truck in that surveillance tape and two people getting out of it.
So that would confirm your John Doe too.
So there's another one.
There's your media angle.
The media was corrupt then and it was infiltrated then.
I mean, you look at Operation Mockingbird, which is a thing that was declassified, 100% thing.
They have been infiltrated forever.
If anything, they've gotten worse because now they don't even hide it.
If anything, they brag about it.
You have people like John Brennan who are, it's their, that's their credentials.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
But it is important to know that.
So I didn't know that aspect of the story.
And that really is something, but it shows you.
It's like, yeah, it's this, this was always the game that the media is there to kind of protect the elite.
And as we've, we talked about, you know, back in our episode about Rothbard and Anatomy of the State.
This is kind of how, you know, something that he recognized decades and decades ago, that the intellectual class, the media class, all of them, they're kind of there to serve the powerful interests.
And so that's, yeah, this was, this was happening even when you were a little kid.
It's not something new.
Okay.
So let's get into another aspect, which you touched on before.
There's some suicides around this event that, yeah, that really are pretty crazy.
So I guess let's start with Terrence Yiki because that's the one that you, you know, you wore the shirt on Tim Boole's show about.
So let's get into that story.
Yeah, get the shirt at toplopsa.com.
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Let's plug your stuff.
But yeah, no, Terrence Yiki, he was one of the first responders who showed up.
He saved something like over four people.
I believe he fell through like a floor or two, injured his back, ended up in the hospital.
His act was a cop, right?
He was a cop.
Yeah, yeah.
So he was, he acted as a first responder on that day, right?
Yes, he was, you know, this may irritate some of our NCAP audience, but he was a good cop.
And the irony here is a lot of times you'll hear people say stuff like the only good cop's the dead cop and well, okay, this one's dead.
So that should tell you something.
But even by ANCAP logic, he's a good cop.
Exactly.
He genuinely seemed like he's trying to do the right thing.
But yeah, his ex-wife, Tanya Yiki, the mother of his two kids, he had two daughters.
They were both, I believe, like under five.
You know, she picked him up from it.
He seemed shaken up.
I believe at some point, that might have been during there or later, he said something to her along the lines of, it's not what they're telling you.
He, that is one thing with the story.
He's, he was very, he never explicitly said stuff, but it seemed to be he was trying to protect people, which I can understand.
Can we just say one thing, by the way, which I probably should have mentioned before, like leading into the story, I'm sorry to cut you off, is that another aspect of the story is that all day as it was happening, it was live reported on the news that there were many other explosives found inside the building.
And this was, and, and this isn't just like, oh, someone said it.
It's not like 9-11, where there's like, oh, I got a firefighter here who's like, hey, yo, I heard something else bang inside the building.
Not to downplay that, but that's kind of like what you have for 9-11.
We're talking about there was, there were hundreds of people who died.
And the building is, if you ever see the pictures of OKC, the building is like, you know, there's a big crater, like a quarter of the building down.
And there's this big search rescue operation going on.
And they were all pulled back several times.
Like as they're searching for the bodies of dead children or perhaps living children, they're pulled back over and over again because there are these reports of bombs inside the building.
And so like that's, that's a whole nother aspect of this that, and there's many avenues to go down from that.
But anyway, back to the story of this cop, Terrence, he was talking about that too, that he was a part of this search effort as they're constantly being pulled back.
In fact, there's firsthand accounts of people who were like helping a dying person under the rubble and then had to leave them and come back to not, you know, they're dead now or whatever.
So there's anyway, I just thought that should be that should be mentioned.
But yeah, I believe in that CNN article by the, you know, Thomas Lake, which magically is one of the good ones, I guess, has somehow got over there because it was actually on this.
Yeah, at least on this.
But he, I believe it's in that article he talks about that goes into a little bit of that stuff.
And I think, you know, Terrence actually did have to, you know, come back at one point because of that reason.
And I think there was some person he was about to save left and then ended up coming back and saving them, something along those lines.
I might remember that wrong.
But yeah, that would definitely be something that tipped them off.
Like, hey, what the heck?
Now, for explanations of that, like this is Scott Horn may have discussed this with you.
I know he talks about this one a lot.
The ATF, this is stuff that I believe has basically been admitted.
It's actually, I think, in the OKC Museum.
Someone showed me the OKC Bombing Museum.
Someone, I think, showed me a picture of this today where it was the idea that they were storing explosives and stuff in the ATF.
And I vaguely remember someone somewhere saying that that was like improper.
Like they weren't supposed to do that, which I mean, that kind of seems like common logic that you shouldn't be storing like tow missiles and stuff in a building with like civilian.
You'd think you'd have a storage location or something for that kind of stuff.
Seems a weird place to hold it.
So I don't think this makes it really any better that that's the case.
And that could also probably account because there were accounts of people that said stuff like they thought there were like secondary explosions and stuff.
So that could account for it because if you had ordnance in there and a bomb goes off, that would obviously could trigger off secondary explosions.
So that could explain it.
Now, there are also on the other side of things.
There are actually legit eyewitness reports.
I think there were two, I won't say there were two women that said they saw someone, you know, I don't know if it was days or like a week prior, they saw someone in like a, you know, setting on like pillars.
It kind of looked like they had like kind of sort of construction or looking type stuff on.
They were like setting what looked like charges on columns.
You know, do that what you will.
I think the they were, I don't think there's anything that's really, you know, taps at their credibility.
But I don't know, two eyewitnesses, do that what you will.
I mean, you could, we, most of us people that seem to get in this or they're trying to be honest tend to stray away from that.
Cause once you go into like the bombing stuff, that's when people start flagging you some kook.
So I don't know.
I'm like, oh, no, no, no, I mean the range.
The range is from there were other bombs inside the building that were a part of the coordinated attack.
Okay.
If that makes you a kook, then like fine.
And to be fair, like, yeah, we don't have like real proof that that's what happened.
But the other end of the range is that, oh, no, what really happened was that the ATF, who, by the way, miraculously, none of them were hurt in this event, that they had other, you know, weapons that they weren't supposed to have in the building.
And so they faked these calls to halt the rescue operation so they could get them out and in the process let God knows how many innocent people die.
You know what I mean?
Like, so you're like, even at the, even at the not kook range of this explanation is still like really horrific.
And then what's what would be the official story?
The official story of it is like, you're like, well, why did the rescue operation get halted several times because of reports of bombs inside the building?
And their explanation is, ah, that didn't really happen.
Yeah, it was just a mistake.
Just like other, just like John Doto.
It's like, I don't know.
It's just, it didn't really exist, turns out.
Everyone hallucinated.
Yeah, I saw, like I was mentioning, the OKC bombing museum thing.
This kind of irritated me.
There was pictures.
I had someone sending me like pictures from the OKC bombing memorial museum or whatever.
And there are pictures of them like kind of handling the ordinance, like that stuff.
And they are literally in like, I think they had flak helmets on and then just normal gear.
Aside from that, there were dudes in like windbreaker, ATF windbreaker jackets and like jeans.
And they, and that is how they're handling this stuff, which you would think you'd be in full bomb gear.
Like if this is something you're that concerned about, you're willing to call off rescue efforts and you're just chilling in like jeans in a windbreaker.
Like, man, like really, if this is how much, how serious you're taking it, why can't we continue rescue efforts?
Like, I don't know.
I mean, maybe it's some technicality, some bureaucratic nonsense.
Either way, it's, it's, I don't, I know that that, I don't know.
But anyways, that is one possibility of like what set what pinged for Yiki.
You know, There's also, there's things to suggest maybe he may have gotten his hands on.
Although this is kind of loose, he may have gotten his hands on the surveillance videos, possibly.
That's one angle, which then he'll see John Doe 2.
I'm trying to think of what else, but essentially he, oh yeah, the main thing, which he actually said in a letter, this is to a letter his friend Ramona.
This is like, you can find, there's a great Hoffman article.
I believe Dave Hoffman wrote about it.
And I believe you can find that Libertarian Institute if you type it up.
But in that article, they're going on about how he found it extremely suspect that with him being one of the first responders there, he got there.
And when he got there, the ATF was already there in full riot gear.
And he's like, and he was one of the first people, if not the first people.
I've heard some people say first.
I don't know if it's one of the first, the first.
Either way, the idea that the ATF could beat him in full riot gear, you know, when they weren't there that morning, what is going on?
I don't know.
So I think there was a lot to suggest.
Obviously, we're kind of conjecturing what does he possibly know.
I don't know.
Either way, he wasn't buying the official narrative.
There was lots to suggest.
I believe this is in the letter as well, where he had like a six-page report that he wrote up for his office.
And he had a back and forth fight with his higher-ups where they want him to take out a bunch of stuff, reduce the amount of pages.
This became a whole thing.
Essentially, this also, with his ex-wife, Tanya Yiki, he was begging her to remarry him, despite him already having another girlfriend, because his reasoning was, in case anything ever happens to me, I want you to be able to receive the life insurance money.
There were a lot of people reporting that he seemed very shook up during or around that time.
They were things like Tanya Yiki, his ex-wife, was like, I think she reported something like eight to 10 times there were like nails in her tires and stuff like that.
So there's a lot of weird stuff going on.
A lot of weird stuff when you dig into it.
I mean, there's even more.
But ultimately, he ends up, you know, he ends up dead.
At one point, they find his car covered in blood.
The seats are ripped up.
There looks like there's burn mats on the floor.
The doors are locked.
And, you know, that flags people to start looking for, you know, obviously you find a car covered in blood.
What's going on?
They start looking around for him.
And eventually they find him.
And it's the lowest estimates, a half mile.
The highest is a mile and a half.
They find the body away from the car.
He had lost two pints of blood.
He had slash marks all over his wrist.
His throat was cut.
He had what looked like rope burns on his body.
It looked like he had handcuffed marks on him.
There was dirt and grass in the wounds, which would be highly suggestive of dragging a body.
There was a bullet wound to the head, which is at an odd angle.
It was an upward angle like this, which I don't know, who the hell is going to shoot themselves?
It also wasn't point blank because you can tell by the gunshot residue and the mark that it left that it wasn't point blank.
It had to be slightly from a distance.
I'm not saying it was from like super far away, but far enough that there wouldn't been any gunshot residue, like any major gunshot residue.
And, you know, at an upward angle, Yiki was a big guy.
He was a corn-fed looking dude.
He was like over six feet tall, built like an oat, like a, probably like a tight end, like not like fat, but like he was corn-fed.
You know, he's a big dude.
So that probably is an odd angle for him to do after already losing two pints of blood.
The first cop that should go ahead.
No, no, no.
I was just going to say, it's like the idea after the whole official story where this John Doe 2 that every single witness saw didn't happen and every single ATF agent was able to avoid being hurt or killed in this blast.
And then you have this guy who kills the guy who was saying, like one of the first responders, the sergeant there, who's like, yeah, none of this adds up.
And then he kills himself by slicing his wrists, slicing his neck, dragging himself through the grass and then shooting himself in the back of the head.
Like that's his method of suicide.
You just go, I don't know, man.
This story, and this is such a big story.
Again.
Pre-9-11, what's what's labeled as the biggest domestic terrorist attack in American history.
This is your story.
This is the official narrative and it really is.
This is the official narrative that yep, I guess that's how he killed himself.
Yep no he uh, I believe it was Mike Ramsey, which was a deputy sheriff of the uh, Canadian County UH Police uh, so they were outside of his his uh, his police department, out of their jurisdiction.
The Okcpd uh, or actually no OKPD whatever, I don't know the Oklahoma CITY Police Department uh, I don't know what the the letters are that go with it threw me off, but anyways he uh, the Mike Ramsey shows up from obviously, like I said, he's from a different department.
He immediately flags like for a murder investigator to come in, but then all of a sudden swoops in his department and they decide to take over the, the uh, take over it and they rule it, the suicide immediately.
Another thing to note is there was no gun found at it until a gun showed up.
Once that his police department showed up oh, you know, kind of those things like, oh, what did you just throw a gun on the ground?
Oh, there it is like uh, you know one of those type of deals uh which, if you shot yourself in the head, it's not like you're gonna have a lot of time to dispose of your gun.
So, you know, think about that.
Like if you killed yourself, the gun's gonna be, you know, within five feet of you right, you know it, it's gonna be nearby um, and so they ruled it a suicide immediately.
Uh yeah, and that's, uh, he also.
Autopsy Interview Conducted Think00:02:07
I believe there were like bruises and other marks in his body.
Uh it's, it's a wild story.
He ended up that way.
Um, they also there.
I believe there was no autopsy uh uh, you know, conducted uh they yeah there's, I think.
I believe the story is that the, his police department, the Oklahoma CITY UH UM, Police Department, took uh possession of the body, even though it was found outside of their like jurisdiction, which is not like the standard protocol, and then, even though the family wanted an autopsy, they didn't have one.
There was a lot of like shady things around that, if i'm, if i'm remembering that correctly.
I mean to be fair on the jurisdiction thing.
I've heard some people explain that like I guess sometimes larger police departments will take over from smaller piece police departments because they have more resources, but that logic doesn't really check out when you didn't utilize any of your resources, so like there was like basically almost nothing done.
They returned the car to the family with the next day, covered in blood.
The family found a uh, a bloody knife under stash under the glove compartment.
Uh, like this is a kind of like how they I mean like whether they did that intentionally or not that just is so disrespectful to the family uh, that they had to deal with that.
They you know the family kept pursuing it for a long time.
Nothing they, they had a lot of harassment.
The, the family kind of dropped it.
Tanya kept it going.
His ex-wife uh, you know there's actually a radio interview that if, if you go I mean I don't know the exact link or how to get to it, but I I put it in the video description for part seven of my Okayc series.
If you want to go check it out, I highly suggest that's a great piece.
She gives a whole full radio interview.
Uh, kind of goes into a lot of good stuff and there the the, the amount of harassment she received before and after his death is astounding and it's it's disgusting uh, you know her, at one point her brakes were cut.
She actually got an accident.
She was going like 40 miles an hour.
Uh, there had been a lot of stuff like tampering with her vehicle.
Uh, it's.
The story goes deep, it is and this is it's.
It's one of those things that just sounds made up, but i'm telling you, everyone out there, go look into it.
Restraining Order Frame Despondent00:03:12
It's not, it's it's.
They did rule a suicide and they tried to frame it in a way of that.
He was despondent because, you know, they were broken up.
They tried, I guess at one point I believe they had some sort of issues in their marriage at some point.
I think she had a restraining order for a small period of time but they never respected.
It is what it seems like they, you know, had.
Like she was one who picked him up from the hospital after the Okayc bombing.
They were interacting regularly, they had children together, they were getting along.
Um, they actually tried to.
This is just bizarre, but this did happen.
The day of before the body was discovered, before they found the car, they called Tanya Yiki and asked her to um, to REF, to file a?
Uh violation of the restraining order thing it's, it was a vpo, I don't know the distinction, but essentially a restraining order uh, but they, they and she said absolutely not uh, and so like it.
And then lo and behold, after the fact they try to frame that when you know it kind of they're shaping the narrative.
It's almost like this thing of like they're trying to make out like he was despondent over the combination of the Okloma City bombing and you know, they're kind of trying to frame it as like his ex-wife kind of being crazy and like maybe not being able to see his kids, whereas he's interacting with her regularly.
They're getting along.
She was, if anything, she was the greatest warrior for his cause after his death and it's like kind of disgusting the way they framed this whole thing against her.
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All right, let's get back in the show.
So okay.
So what's?
What is the other suicide that you've been talking about more recently?
This one I, I will confess I know a lot less about.
So tell me about that.
Kenneth Trenadu.
Uh, Kenneth Trenadu was a.
He did a little bit time in the military during the Vietnam era.
He ended up getting acquiring a heroin addiction during that, which I guess a lot of people kind of did during that little skirmish.
It was during that period of the military.
I don't know if it's just being over there.
I don't know the specifics of why he developed a heroin addiction, but he did.
He tried to rob a bank to fund his addiction.
Jesse Parole Dealing Specifics00:08:23
It was kind of a bungled bank robbery.
He ended up getting busted.
He did his time.
He got out.
He got his life back together.
He had a wife.
He ended up having a small, having a kid, like was a newborn at the time, essentially, very young.
He was dealing with parole.
He kind of blew off parole, essentially, because one of the conditions was that he wasn't able to drink.
And he had a brother, Jesse Trendew, who was a high-powered lawyer, really good at what he did.
He tried to get his brother to help him to kind of like fight that alcohol condition.
And they tried to deal with that.
And it fell through.
And then he was kind of like, dude, I'm going to drink.
So I don't know.
Like, I guess come get me.
Like, kind of was the deal.
Like, and so, which I mean, whatever.
He was a real ass dude.
I don't know.
But he, and then I guess at one point, his wife was Mexican.
So they, I don't know the specifics of why, but he was coming back from Mexico at one point.
And he got stopped at the border, you know, for his parole violation, essentially.
I don't know what flagged it.
I brought the his wife being Mexican because I'm assuming it was probably like a family thing or something, you know.
And so he got busted.
They sent him to they sent him to a federal transfer center in Oklahoma City.
He, this, this guy had the misfortune of in some ways fitting the fitting a lot of the bullet points of John Doe too.
He had a similar build, similar facial structure.
He had a similar tattoo because it was thought that John Doe II may have had some sort of dragon tattoo on his arm.
Kenneth Trendew had like a dragon tattoo on his left forearm, which a lot of people might instantly think, well, okay, that's him because tattoos are pretty distinct usually.
This is like kind of like generic looking like 90s slash art dragon tattoo.
So like it's not saying much, you know.
But he also had the bank robbery on his record, which anyone who studied OKC knows there's a part of this story is that, you know, McVay and then some of his accomplices were kind of associated with this group of bank robbers, which later became known as the Aryan Republican Army.
And, you know, they were using, they were, you know, conducting bank robberies to fund their domestic terrorism efforts, essentially.
And so he kind of fit a lot of these different criteria of what John Doe II might be.
And this guy ended up dead.
According to their story, he said he looked like he, they said, what they told the family is that he hung himself in his, in his, in his cell, which I forgot, I left out.
His cell was in like kind of a like a like a special security area, kind of like a, one of those areas that like Jeffrey Epstein was kind of in and the federal transfer center.
Like, so this was like upscale jail in protective area.
Like there was like videotapes, there were log books, all sorts of stuff.
It's basically supposed to be impossible to kill yourself there.
So he tried to hang, according to him, he hung himself.
The the they initially they the feds or whatever, because it's a federal prison, they they tried to, they called the family and asked them if they wanted him to cremate the body.
They were like, no.
Then they tried to go to the medical examiner and say, hey, can we cremate this body?
Like, can we forego it and let you?
And the medical examiner was like, what?
No.
Like, that's the family.
That's up to the family.
And then eventually over time, there was even a little bit of battle here.
The family gets back the body.
The body is returned to them.
And if you go check out my article, Noejose2020.substack.com, I believe.
It's the only article there.
I just dropped a couple days ago.
I put pictures in there.
You can see the state of the body.
The family took pictures of the body because they were like, what the hell?
We need to document this.
You can see there's like bruises, scratches, cuts, what looks like burns.
There were ligature marks on him that don't look like something that would be from like a bed sheet.
If you look at it, there's actually a photo of a close-up on his neck and it looks like kind of the perfect indentations of like zip ties.
So it looks like that's how they killed him with zip ties.
And like, that's what did him, did him in.
So the family was obviously upset about it.
The brother, they killed the wrong dude.
They killed the wrong dude.
They thought this guy was John Doe, too.
And I mean this in multiple ways when I say they killed the wrong dude because this, as I mentioned earlier, this dude's brother was Jesse Trenadu, who is a, was a, you know, a lawyer.
He was a former Marine.
He's kind of, once again, another real ass dude.
He was not having it.
Like for him, his brother got killed and he was on the warpath.
He's literally to this day still dealing with the courts and FOIA and has been doing it since then.
He's actually responsible for a lot of the stuff that we have today.
A lot of the FOIA stuff I mentioned before is due to him dealing with FOIA lawsuits.
But anyways, he essentially tried to go on multiple fronts.
He tried to attack this on a political front, on a FOIA front, on a civil front, and on a criminal front.
He was basically attacking on all fronts all at once.
He actually, on the civil side, he actually won a million dollars.
I forget.
I don't know if it was like for suffering of the family or emotional suffering or something.
I forget the specifics of why they did it.
But essentially, they did themselves in by that by financing him.
So then they gave him the money to be able to continue this fight for basically forever.
But on the criminal side, he one of the things too, there are other suicides that are connected with this suicide, and we'll get into that or other deaths.
Not all of them were technically considered suicides.
There were two cellmates that were near him that claimed that they heard what sounded like screams and stuff and things that sounded like torture coming from his cell.
And he and both of them were willing to testify.
One of them ended up rule the suicide.
One of them ended up ruled the drug overdose.
Isn't that convenient?
And then on top of that, there was another individual, Norman Pearl, who was the expert videographer that they used in the Rodney King trials.
He was actually, according to, this is how Jesse Trenadu tells it.
I was struggling to find sources for elsewhere.
But according to Jesse Trenadu, who I trust personally, when you look, a new story, but according to him, Norman Pearl came to him and told him that the FBI came to him and essentially wanted his professional Opinion on the aspect of that the cameras did not pick up what happened that night and wanted him this professional opinion.
If there was any way this could have been essentially anything other than manually done by like a person and Norman Pearl, and they were insistent that they didn't want a written porn, they wanted the oral report.
And he, he told them no, there's no way.
This had to be done manually.
And essentially the feds were like, well okay, that's it, don't talk to anybody about this.
He came to Jesse Trend Who and told him I'm willing to testify.
He also ended up dying, to be fair, he died.
He was reported a heart attack which I mean I don't know.
I'm even like kind of suspicious enough where I don't know, I don't know.
It's awfully convenient.
I mean, to be fair, the one guy could have killed himself, the one guy could have actually been legitimately like overdosed.
This guy could legitimately had a heart attack.
But you get to a point where, like why the are all the witnesses yeah so yeah, I mean that and that's kind of like, I guess that's the some of the pertinent stuff there.
I mean there's more to go into that.
There's a lot of stuff in like the, the.
I mean because Jesse's been fighting this fight forever.
He's dealt with many uh court battles with the the, essentially the FBI.
I mean they were literally at one point the feds, uh were caught, you know, committing perjury and their literal legal defense was, it is within our authority to do so.
Like it goes deep once you start digging into especially the different court cases there.
There's so much to look into and it it's like, uh the uh, the guards that were on uh, that were on station, they were caught perjuring uh, you know, essentially with their story of what happened uh, Jesse tried to pursue that I forget exactly what happened, but essentially the courts wouldn't let him.
They, they essentially sealed it or I forget the specific terms, legally speaking, of what, what that entailed, but essentially they wouldn't let it happen, which was insane.
Like what do you mean?
Like these guys just perjured, like this should be, like I should be able to pursue this and reattack and nope nope nope nope, we're dropping that and yeah there, that is.
There's yes, once you start digging to the people who died, it is, it is, and there's still so much more to this whole story.
It's, it is just insane.
Holloway Waco Neo Nazi Coverup00:14:57
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All right, let's get back into the show.
Okay, from there, kind of zoom out and we go.
Okay, so what is what?
What can we kind of like grasp as the overarching story here, and a big part of it.
Is that okay?
So Timothy Mcveay, for people who don't know, was essentially like a Neo-nazi type guy guy.
I think he had fought in George H.W. Bush's war in Desert Storm, the first war in Iraq, which was a great success.
You know, it was a great success.
We won the war quick and easy, except we're still there today.
But so he had fought in that war and eventually been turned against his own government, kind of joined like this real neo-Nazi like militia type group.
And that it seems like those guys had carried out this attack.
The thing that gets tricky is that if you could imagine, right, like with anything, and to connect it almost to today's story, with anything, if there's like a Trump march or a Unite the Right rally or, you know, January 6th or like anything like that, as we all kind of know today, it's like, well, you have a mix of, yeah, okay, there are like right wingers.
There might be even some like kind of like neo-fascist types.
And then there's also feds because they've all been infiltrated.
And so he's a part, like, I think the overarching story is that he's a part of this neo-Nazi militia.
They've clearly been infiltrated to some degree by the feds.
Now, whether that means that there's informants or that means that there's direct actual agent provocateurs, Fed, you know, type actors.
Either way, this happens.
The ATF clearly has some advanced knowledge about it, right?
And so they're out of the way of this and they're sweeping for bombs beforehand.
And then ultimately, the details of this are completely covered up.
Like what more, like if you're just like zooming out, saying the broad, you know, kind of strokes of this, is there anything else that should be added to that?
Or what do you think?
There are feds of every flavor.
I'll go through a few real quick.
I think I can do this pretty well.
ATF, Carol Howe.
All right.
Carol Howe was an informant who cased the Murray building with Dennis Mahon and Andrea Strassmeier, I believe three times.
She reported it back to the ATF, kind of like, hey, what the hell?
Like they're kind of wanting to bomb that, but there's something going on here.
That got squashed.
There's your ATF angle.
They kind of stopped pursuing that.
Now, Andrea Strassmeyer, that other guy I just mentioned, these are people connected with Elohim City, the ARA, those type of people, the Aryans, essentially, that we were kind of referring to, the loose group of individuals McVay was kind of hanging out with.
Andrea Strassmeyer was a German national.
He was in the German military.
He was the son of a high-powered politician.
He was in the German military.
He was in counterintelligence.
He actually did some time helping like a small stint in Israel working with the IDF.
Kind of like, it looked like kind of like a cross-string thing.
A lot of people like to jump to conclusions about like Israel with that one.
And you kind of get some weird like Jew stuff there.
A lot of people get crazy about.
But whatever, what have you.
I think that's not as strong of a connection as a lot of people make it out to be, but whatever it's there, do that what you will.
But he was fluent in German, fluent in Hebrew.
He's fluent in English.
He then comes to the United States.
He first gets lives with this guy named Vincent Petruski, who was a CIA, former CIA agent.
He was in Operation Phoenix in Vietnam, which was essentially like Northwoods type stuff in Vietnam.
They were ginning up hatred against the Viet Cong by conducting assassinations, killing, stuff like that.
And he's on record at some point saying something along the lines of kind of like, I'd like to get the gang back together and kind of do something like that here.
And then he ends up being with this Andrea Strassmeyer character.
Do that what you will.
Then he goes from living with this Vincent Petruski guy.
He moves to Dave Holloway.
I might have the first name wrong, but the last name's right, Holloway, who is another former CIA agent.
This guy actually literally has it in his LinkedIn profile.
So it doesn't take much to figure that one out.
This Holloway character, he had created this infantry called the Texas Light Infantry.
He kind of brought in Strassmeyer into the fold there.
Strassmeyer actually gets kicked out of that one because he was suspected by that militia of being a provocateur because they saw him going to a federal building and literally using the keypad.
So I don't know, do that what you will.
So there's kind of loose CIA connection.
Yeah, Dave Holloway.
Yeah, he's right.
Thanks, Brian.
But there's your kind of sort of CIA connections.
I think he may have kind of, my suspicion is he may have actually ended up falling in with the FBI because there was something with Vincent Petruski about where he was kind of trying to help him make it put like submit like pack job packages to different agencies.
So I think he may have, I think it looks like he may have gotten third in the FBI type thing.
And maybe he was also kind of working for the CIA, kind of like, you know, agent within an agent kind of deal.
But I don't know, it's hard to tell what's what.
He was also receiving like a $2,000 month stipend from Holloway.
And now I guess I can go to FBI to kind of tie that in.
There was another individual named Roger Moore, which this is how like the official narrative of how they kind of acquired some of the funds to conduct the bombing.
This was an individual who was, you know, split booths at gun shows with Timothy McVay.
They were kind of like buddies, essentially.
And Timothy McVay got Terry Nichols to go rob him.
And, you know, Nichols made a point about like saying how like McVeigh was like.
Nichols, by the way, for everyone who doesn't know, is the official other, you know, partner in the crime, right?
Which kind of, if anything, he's probably, Nichols is probably one of the most like sympathetic character in the one because he legitimately looks like he kind of got it over his head and there's a lot of like coercion and stuff and which is kind of like a normal dude that got him way over his head to some extent.
And it was like, I can't get out because my whole family will be killed type deal.
But anyways, you know, I mean, still, don't get me wrong.
It's still bad, like not good.
But this Roger Moore character, they conducted a robbery, quote unquote robbery.
It's kind of like, hey, they were, yeah, there you go.
But he, yeah, let's see, there you go, the fabricating the firearms robbery.
The insurance investigator who followed up on it thought it was nonsense.
The cop who followed up on it thought it was nonsense, but you know, whatever, it stuck.
He was later on quoted on, I can't remember the name of the reporter, but you know, like some journalist got him, quoted him.
This was kind of in the context of talking about Oklahoma City bombing.
And he's like, whatever they had me doing for the FBI was fucked up because they blew my cover or something along those lines.
I may have fucked up the quote, but that is roughly the quote.
He said fucked up for sure.
But so there you go.
Like I just gave you a quick rundown.
And like, obviously that's like the quickest rundown I could possibly do.
And even that was kind of lengthy of FBI, CIA, ATF, kind of loose associations.
The CIA gets a little bit more loose.
So, I mean, do that what you will.
I'm not saying necessarily they perpetrated it.
I don't know.
It's especially once you start getting like, I think the best way when me and Booth are talking about it once, it's like the best way to explain the Oklahoma bombing is the ATF, the FBI, and the CIA walk into a bar and the people serving the drinks are the Aryans.
Right.
I don't know.
Another thing, because I try, I try on the show, you know, to kind of like talk about like these kind of like the bigger narratives in the best way that I possibly can.
And it's easy to be sloppy when you talk about these like grand narratives, but I try to do this in the most effective way that I can.
But like, keep in mind, okay, that this is, so we're talking about 1995.
This is two years after the another event that's completely papered over in modern history, which was the first World Trade Center bombing, okay?
Which we know was an FBI infiltrated event that were like this is this is not even like debated at this point.
Washington Post, New York Times, everyone will admit this, that the FBI basically had they had prior knowledge that this bombing was going to happen.
And they basically lost track of the guys or they got called off, you know, like detailing them and then they ended up blowing it up.
And they were that the not the first World Trade Center bombing was designed to like take out like a load bearing like pillar or whatever.
And it was would have could have killed tens of thousands of people.
Ended up only killing a few people.
But regardless of that, you know, like this was, if you think about how like the Soviet Union had collapsed in 1991, and then all of a sudden you have these series of events that are almost like designed to create this next enemy that will be the justification for the government cracking down on this next enemy.
It does at least make you wonder like, oh, okay.
Now, I'm not saying that all of these things were created to be that, but it is certainly the case that there was government involvement.
These events ended up happening and then they were manipulated in order, you know, to continue that narrative.
And so you just see, and this is something that, you know, like to, as we close here, to take it back to what you were saying at the beginning, to connect this to kind of like current events, you see how they will use these events to then go, oh, okay.
And this is why we need to have some policy about cracking down on this group of people.
And of course, even after the Oklahoma City bombing, the message wasn't like, oh, look, okay, even neo-Nazi groups are a party, are a problem.
It was every right-wing militia is everyone who is, you know, to the right of the most conservative member of Congress basically represents a threat to our democracy.
That was literally the line that they would use back then.
And I'm not saying that they plan.
I don't have enough evidence to conclusively say that they planned it in order to do that.
But I certainly, I think we have enough evidence to say they were involved in it happening.
And then when it happened, they were like, okay, we're going to use this as the narrative to like why this is a real problem and why, you know, Waco, which was, I guess, like part of the motivation for Oklahoma City was like a revenge about what happened in Waco.
They went, well, here's why you can't even feel bad about Waco.
Here's why, you know, it's like, well, this is why the feds have to crack down on these militia groups because look what they'll do.
Like this post hoc justification for Waco.
Scott Horn's been great about that.
Like that's his main point.
A lot of times when he talks about this is that this essentially, whether they, whether this was a narrative they did intentionally or if it was like an after-the-fact thing, they did, you know, they took what was this like like strong militia movement that was forming at a time in kind of like in spite of their, you know, Ruby Ridge and Waco, kind of the aftermath of that.
All that did was bolster the militia movement.
And this took it and kind of just completely discredited the entire militia movement through that act.
So McVay was actually, yeah, at Waco.
Yeah.
Another point, my fully blanket.
Yeah, well, it's, it's, uh, It's a shame in a way because there's almost like, as you could see, let's say through the last few years, you can see why they really wouldn't want like small decentralized movement of armed Americans who are like, we're not going to stand for federal tyranny.
And you could kind of see how like, yeah, you know, for people who believe in liberty, I don't know if we necessarily agree with that assessment that that's something we don't want.
So yeah, it's a wild story, man.
And it's just so apparent that the official version of it is complete bullshit.
So, all right, listen, dude, I know we had to reschedule this a couple of times, but I'm really so glad that you came on and did this with me.
And I'm glad to have you on part of the problem.
You've had me on your show several times.
I'm sure I'll be back on yours and I'm happy to have you back on this.
Is there anything else you want to like just end with or any final comments?
Oh, God, there's so much.
And there were so many different things.
Like when you say this, I'm like, oh, sparks that.
And it's like, I know to save you another like 20 minute like diatribe against the feds, you know, because I think once I start, once you tug on one thread, you just keep on.
So I guess for that sake, I would just suggest people go check out my OKC series.
You know, you can also go check out if you want to read a book, Aberration in the Heartland of the Real by Wendy Painting.
There was also a great book by Roger Charles, you know, Oklahoma City, What They Missed or something along the What the Investigation Missed.
I forget the specific ones, specific name, but those are both great books.
Those probably the two best books on the topic.
The Roger Charles one's on audiobook if you prefer audio.
So yeah, I just gave you books, audio books, gave you podcasts.
Go look into it.
I can't really think of any other resources for people if you're trying to look into OKC up top of my head.
But aside from Libertarian Institute, the OKC archive, you can just type in whatever angle you want to look into and boom.
There's a lot of threads to pull on this one.
And make sure, send Brian the link to your series on this and we'll put it in the description for the episode so people can go check that out.
And where can people check you out?
No Way Jose Show Matters00:01:49
Your show is No Way Jose, of course.
What else?
Yeah, I have the No Way Jose show.
It's on YouTube, all the major art podcasts, Aussie as well.
If you want to follow me on Twitter at Taragang Jose, also, yeah, the Tara Gang show, which is offensive comedy, which is, if you like, Legion of Skanks, but, you know, like a lower production value and jokes that don't hit as much, we're the ones for you.
But yeah, go check that out.
That has me, Reid, I guess not Reed Hardly Ever Shows Up.
Me, Clint Russell, Fat Dave, Toad, and Top Lobster.
We're all on that show.
We have a lot of fun.
Trying to think.
Yeah, I have that Substack article that I just did, no wayjose2020.substack.com.
I really can't think of anything else.
It was a pleasure to be on.
It was great to finally be able to be on your show and actually be able to bring something that I care about that I think it matters greatly in this current paradigm.
Yeah, look, dude, I really appreciate you coming on.
And obviously, like you've really dug into this issue and I agree with you.
It really does matter.
It doesn't just matter because like those people who like the people who were killed and the people who were suicided or whatever, like that their story ought to be told.
But it also matters as you, as you kind of touched on several times, because it kind of like it really does apply to everything that's going on and really kind of let you know what we're up against.
So look, dude, thank you so much for doing this show.
I apologize.
We've been this week, I've pushed this back like a few times and one of them was because I'm just absolutely retarded and I booked it on a day where I was out of town.
And then my daughter got strep throat the other day.
She's doing much better now.
But so then I had to push it back again.
But thank you so much for coming on and making this happen.