Part Of The Problem - Dave Smith - Pete Quinones On Liberty
Aired: 2022-07-26
Duration: 01:49:26


=== Circulation of Elites (14:32) ===

[00:00:00]  Fill her up.
[00:00:02]  You're listening to the Gash Digital Network.
[00:00:08]  We need to roll back the state.
[00:00:10]  We spy on all of our own citizens.
[00:00:12]  Our prisons are flooded with nonviolent drug offenders.
[00:00:16]  If you want to know who America's next enemy is, look at who we're funding right now.
[00:00:22]  Every single one of these problems are a result of government being way too big.
[00:00:26]  You're listening to part of the problem on the Gash Digital Network.
[00:00:30]  Here's your host, Dave Smith.
[00:00:33]  What's up, everybody?
[00:00:35]  Welcome to a brand new episode of Part of the Problem.
[00:00:37]  I'm very happy to be joined today by a good friend of mine, a longtime friend of mine, somebody who's been on the show many times.
[00:00:44]  I've been on his show many times.
[00:00:46]  Pete Canonez, how are you, brother?
[00:00:48]  Doing good, Dave.
[00:00:49]  How are you?
[00:00:50]  Very good.
[00:00:51]  Good to talk to you.
[00:00:53]  I know you're out there.
[00:00:54]  I was going to ask, first of all, because I know you're out in the area.
[00:00:57]  Are you going to Mises University at all?
[00:00:59]  I'll be dropping in and out.
[00:01:01]  You know, it's when I would make time to go to Mises U, I'd make time and it would be vacation.
[00:01:07]  But now I live here and I actually have work to do.
[00:01:10]  So it's not like I can just go over there and hang out all day, you know?
[00:01:14]  The cruel irony of it all.
[00:01:16]  I know I see it.
[00:01:17]  I, because I was just seeing literally just a few minutes before, I didn't even realize it was starting right now.
[00:01:21]  And I was just on Twitter, saw like some of the stuff.
[00:01:23]  I'm just like, oh man, I wish I was there.
[00:01:25]  I haven't been there in a while.
[00:01:26]  I believe the last time I was there was when you were filming your documentary.
[00:01:33]  2019 then.
[00:01:34]  2019.
[00:01:34]  Yeah, it was the year before the world went crazy, 2019.
[00:01:37]  That's right.
[00:01:37]  And you were filming your documentary, which is available.
[00:01:40]  People can go get it.
[00:01:42]  Still on Amazon Prime.
[00:01:43]  Yeah, there it will.
[00:01:44]  Strangely enough.
[00:01:46]  We'll see if we can.
[00:01:47]  We'll see if you can't say enough shit to get it taken down.
[00:01:50]  But The Monopoly on Violence is a really, really great documentary.
[00:01:54]  Go check that out if you haven't already.
[00:01:56]  I was very honored to be in that with a lot of other great people.
[00:02:01]  Yeah.
[00:02:01]  So anyway, yeah, I was just thinking about that.
[00:02:03]  Oh, yeah, that was the last time I was out there.
[00:02:05]  Got to try to get back.
[00:02:06]  Maybe next year I'll see if I can make it work.
[00:02:08]  Maybe I'll set up some shows in Auburn so we can.
[00:02:12]  I just walked outside.
[00:02:12]  The mosquitoes got me.
[00:02:14]  I mean, this place is so bad in July.
[00:02:17]  You're like, yeah, I'm not kidding.
[00:02:18]  You're like, fucking, who cares?
[00:02:19]  Austrian economics.
[00:02:20]  I get it.
[00:02:21]  Whatever.
[00:02:21]  I'm going back inside.
[00:02:22]  I've read it all.
[00:02:25]  Yeah, probably.
[00:02:26]  Oh, you know, maybe they'll put out some new stuff in the next year that we'll have to go over.
[00:02:31]  So there's a lot of stuff that we could get into, I guess.
[00:02:36]  People, of course, on my audience, I'm sure a lot of them know you from past appearances on the show.
[00:02:43]  People know you from the, you know, being a writer, being a podcaster, being, you know, all this stuff.
[00:02:48]  You have gone through a bit of a transformation.
[00:02:52]  Is that a fair word to put it?
[00:02:54]  Or correct me if I'm wrong, but things have, I think you've evolved in your thinking about a lot of things.
[00:03:01]  What would you, and I understand this is a broad question.
[00:03:05]  We have time to get into all of this, but would you, is there, like, how would you describe where you're at right now?
[00:03:10]  Do you still consider yourself a libertarian who's critical of other libertarians or critical of their strategy?
[00:03:17]  Or do you kind of reject the label, the idea?
[00:03:21]  What would you describe yourself as if someone asked where your thinking is?
[00:03:26]  Right wing to dissonant right.
[00:03:29]  I still, I still love, you know, I'm working on trying to build some private cities and get that going.
[00:03:37]  So, you know, it's like I'm really, okay, so the brand of libertarianism that I strictly hold to is hoppyism.
[00:03:44]  If anybody was to ask me about what I am, I would say Hoppy.
[00:03:48]  And, you know, but, you know, that comes with some things.
[00:03:52]  It comes with some qualifiers, you know?
[00:03:55]  So, you know, I have been critical of libertarianism in general and a lot of the libertarian strategy, especially since COVID started.
[00:04:04]  But that's only because I'm trying.
[00:04:07]  I'm looking at the greatest libertarian alive, Hans Hermann Hoppe, and I'm saying, okay, and this is an appeal to authority, but I'm saying, well, he came up with a strategy in 1997.
[00:04:17]  Let's try that strategy, but let's stick to it.
[00:04:20]  Let's the way he said to do it.
[00:04:22]  Let's do it exactly like he said to do it and not try to inject other things into it.
[00:04:28]  Like, you know, Hans said that for a private city, one of the 10,000 Liechtensteins to work, it's going to have to be explicitly right-wing.
[00:04:39]  Okay, so fine.
[00:04:41]  Okay.
[00:04:42]  So when somebody online tells me, but our strategy is the what must be done Hans Hermann Hoppe strategy, my question is, what about that part where he says it's going to have to be explicitly right-wing?
[00:04:54]  I haven't heard.
[00:04:55]  And that seems to have been left out of when a lot of people approach me and come after me.
[00:05:02]  And I'm good with people coming after me because I go after people too.
[00:05:05]  But that's my question.
[00:05:07]  And if you, if you're put it this way, if you think you can do it better than Hans Hermann Hoppe, have at it, but maybe try his way.
[00:05:15]  And if it doesn't work, then you adjust and you try to come up with something different.
[00:05:21]  Sure.
[00:05:22]  Okay.
[00:05:22]  I mean, I think that, you know, Hans Hermann Hoppe is, believe me, I'm certainly not going to discredit his contributions.
[00:05:31]  And I would agree with you.
[00:05:32]  I think he probably is the greatest living libertarian mind.
[00:05:37]  You know, he would describe himself as a Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist.
[00:05:41]  Of course.
[00:05:41]  So it's one of these things where like being a Hoppean versus being a Rothbardian versus, you know, being a libertarian in general in that kind of tradition of ideas.
[00:05:51]  I mean, I think Hoppe's contributions to libertarianism are really, I mean, very impressive as contributions in terms of, to me, I mean, you know, I know there's people who get so triggered over Hans Hermann Hoppe, but it's like, I don't know, dude, like go read a theory of socialism and capitalism.
[00:06:13]  It is a fucking masterpiece.
[00:06:15]  Argumentation ethics, I think, is one of the most beautiful, you know, like logical kind of frameworks that anybody has added to this.
[00:06:25]  This is stuff that made Rothbard like lose his mind.
[00:06:27]  Like, this is so incredible what this guy is doing.
[00:06:30]  And I think democracy, the God that fails, like, God damn, if that isn't, even if you don't agree with everything in the book, you got to admit, it's like, man, these are profoundly interesting like questions that this guy is raising and things that other libertarians have dared not to venture into, even though it kind of is the logical conclusion of what we're all talking about.
[00:06:54]  One of the things that I like about Hoppe a lot is that what he's grappled with is essentially to me, what, you know, and this is the piece you're talking about in 1997, or actually was a speech that was then transcribed, right?
[00:07:07]  It's what must be done.
[00:07:08]  Just for anyone who doesn't know, this was a speech that Hoppe gave in 1997.
[00:07:12]  And it's kind of grappling with the real crux of the question.
[00:07:17]  And I think this is something that you've been talking about a lot for the last two years and that a lot of us have been thinking about.
[00:07:23]  It's like, okay, so got it.
[00:07:25]  We want to be in a more free society.
[00:07:27]  We're not.
[00:07:29]  So what do we do?
[00:07:30]  You know, it's not just a question of saying like, okay, we know that we want to be there.
[00:07:36]  At least enough of us agree with that.
[00:07:37]  And personally, I think it's important to get more people to agree with that.
[00:07:41]  But that still leaves a really big question, which is like, how exactly do we get there?
[00:07:46]  And so what, Do you want to just like take a second, maybe kind of break down what Hoppe would suggest and what needs to be done, what must be done in terms of how to get there?
[00:07:56]  Just for anyone who's like not super familiar with this, maybe so they understand what we're talking about.
[00:08:02]  Right.
[00:08:02]  I mean, he basically talks about local politics, getting people elected into certain spots and then pushing to privatize everything.
[00:08:10]  But one thing that like Rothbard never talked about was, and that I think the reason Hoppe talks about it is because he read like the neoreaction, all the people that the neoreactionaries tell you to read, Pareto and de Juvenel.
[00:08:31]  And he realized that you're always going to have elites that are going to, that are going to be an influence are going to be leaders.
[00:08:40]  And he's really the only libertarian anarcho-capitalist who has multiple essays on elites, natural elites.
[00:08:50]  And he talks about one of the first things he talks about in what must be done is raising up elites and finding elites locally.
[00:08:58]  I would call that pillar of the community.
[00:09:00]  Get those people, get those people on your side.
[00:09:03]  Let them know what you're doing.
[00:09:04]  Find out if they're sympathetic to what you're doing.
[00:09:07]  I think no time is better than after COVID and after the summer of George and all that crap.
[00:09:14]  But understanding that I think Hoppe understands that even if you get to one of those 10,000 Liechtensteins and it's basically anarcho-capitalism, there's still going to be leaders.
[00:09:27]  There are going to be people who are going, they're going to be thought leaders, they're going to be influencers, and you're going to have to rely on them.
[00:09:34]  And a friend of mine who goes by academic agent, his name is Nima Parvini, he just put out a book.
[00:09:41]  It's 147 pages with the footnotes.
[00:09:43]  It's like 110 pages.
[00:09:45]  And he distills down all of those people that Hoppe read about elites, Pareto, de Juvenel, Getena Mosca.
[00:09:56]  And also at the end, he puts in James Burnham, Paul Gottfried, and Samuel T. Francis.
[00:10:02]  And basically what this book shows is it's called the populist delusion.
[00:10:07]  And when, you know, Trump, populist, Ron Paul, when he ran, it was a populist message.
[00:10:15]  Yeah.
[00:10:16]  And the populist illusion is that somebody can get elected and can actually change all of this.
[00:10:23]  So what it, I think what Hoppe understands from reading, from reading all these people is that unless you have elites, that you are going to what Pareto, Pareto talks about a circulation of elites, how you'll have people who go up into elite status, and then other people will basically replace them.
[00:10:41]  And you'll have these people going in and out of elites that you have, you're always going to have elites.
[00:10:46]  You have to have elites and the elites have to be on your side.
[00:10:49]  If you want, like I've taken to saying, and people can, I mean, people shit on me for saying this all the time, but we could have anarcho-capitalism tomorrow.
[00:10:57]  If we had a bunch of elites that wanted anarcho-capitalism, they would make it happen.
[00:11:03]  That is what Hoppe is based when Hoppe is writing all these articles about elites and it's insulting to the libertarian, you know, the no, no gods, no masters, libertarians.
[00:11:16]  He's actually looking at reality and saying, okay, this is what must be done.
[00:11:21]  And I think that's a lot of what must be done is.
[00:11:24]  Yeah, I think I think maybe in terms of using the term elites, Hoppe certainly probably has used that more.
[00:11:32]  But I mean, I just, you know, I don't know how original to Hoppe that is in the libertarian world.
[00:11:38]  Like just, I mean, certainly, like, if you read Rand, Ayn Rand, I mean, it's all like, there's so much of that is all in there.
[00:11:47]  Like the idea of these kind of like great men, like that, the idea of great men who are leaders who rose up through the market, kind of these like, I think basically describing the same thing Hop is describing in natural elites.
[00:12:00]  And I don't know if Rothbard, you know, now that you're, you're like mentioning it, I'm like trying to think like, yeah, did Rothbard ever write so much?
[00:12:07]  I know.
[00:12:08]  It's like, how, yeah, the way I look at it is, I mean, like, I've seen in his library, like, I know that he's read like Oswald Spengler.
[00:12:15]  There's a two, he has the two volume decline of the west there.
[00:12:18]  His notes are all in it, but I didn't see like any Moscow.
[00:12:21]  I saw some Burnham in there.
[00:12:23]  Well, he did reviews of Burnham.
[00:12:25]  He wrote a bunch of stuff, kind of like taking him on.
[00:12:27]  But I mean, just even like in his stuff on the progressive era, like there was a lot of talk about kind of like titans of industry and stuff like that.
[00:12:34]  Now, of course, he was critical of them for basically becoming terrible elites who went in and corrupted the government and all of that stuff.
[00:12:41]  But there, but I do think it's an important thing for libertarians to recognize or for anybody, you know, to recognize that it's like, yes, no, they're the idea.
[00:12:52]  And this is kind of, I think, what a lot of the, I don't know what to even call them, kind of like the Wokertarian type crowd get completely wrong is that they think no gods, no masters.
[00:13:04]  Right.
[00:13:04]  No gods, no masters one.
[00:13:05]  Right.
[00:13:06]  Like that the idea of libertarianism is almost like rejecting responsibility or any type of authority, not talking about just like state authority, but any type of authority in your life, whether that's your, your parents or your boss or your church or your community or anything like that.
[00:13:21]  And that the idea that that's not going to exist in one capacity or another is profoundly childish.
[00:13:29]  You know, it's like it's a profoundly infantile way to look at the world.
[00:13:33]  And I know I have heard you quote this before, and I've quoted it many times on the show as a Tucker Carlson line that I just thought was so great when someone called him a populist.
[00:13:44]  And he goes, I'm not a populist.
[00:13:46]  I'm an elitist.
[00:13:47]  I just believe in impressive elites.
[00:13:49]  Like I just, I just don't want to pretend the elites are Nancy Pelosi.
[00:13:52]  And like, you know, it's like, come on, like, that's not.
[00:13:55]  And you see this all the time.
[00:13:57]  And we still do have natural elites in our society all over the place.
[00:14:03]  I think there's lots of different categories and different, you know, even just something as silly as like athletes.
[00:14:11]  Athletes in a certain way are natural elites.
[00:14:14]  They are, we respect them because of something tangible that's natural.
[00:14:18]  You know, it's like, wow, that guy can do a 360 dunk.
[00:14:21]  That's incredible.
[00:14:22]  We all kind of, even if you're not a basketball fan, you see a picture of someone doing a 360 dunk and you go, pretty damn impressive that a human being can do that.
[00:14:30]  And people who rise up in business and stuff like this.

=== Local Federalism Matters (05:09) ===

[00:14:33]  But when you're talking about on the more local level, especially I've noticed this since, you know, moving out of a big city into a little town, you notice that there's like, there's people in that town who everybody knows and who everybody kind of respects.
[00:14:48]  And a lot of that's usually because they're kind of involved and they do good things for people.
[00:14:52]  And I do agree with you that I think that's something we have to be very aware of.
[00:14:59]  And that if we're going to really ever achieve a society with a higher degree of liberty, it's going to have to be in some, it's not going to be Washington, D.C. ruling, you know, 300 million people.
[00:15:13]  It's going to be some form of decentralization, whatever, whatever that means.
[00:15:20]  You know, in the most extreme example, that would mean, you know, secession or something like that.
[00:15:24]  But there are, it's, it's a spectrum.
[00:15:26]  You know what I mean?
[00:15:27]  Could be just areas where local uh uh communities, local governments, local that have more, exert themselves more and are more willing to kind of like either nullify or just straight up ignore kind of federal mandates.
[00:15:40]  And this is obviously something that over the last two years has been more evident than ever before in my lifetime, where it's like yeah what, what town you were in really mattered.
[00:15:53]  In some ways it mattered even more than what the state government was was saying about you.
[00:15:58]  You know, through through Covet, I think if you were in I don't know I I mean I don't exactly know if this is true but if you were in a really blue city in Florida or if you were in a really red town in even New Jersey or something like that, you probably dealt with more of the covet hysteria in that blue area in Florida than you did in a red town in Jersey.
[00:16:26]  It's really about who's around you.
[00:16:29]  Orlando the mayor of Orlando said we are not going to listen to anything.
[00:16:33]  Desantis said I remember going to Orlando in um june of last year and it mask mandates everywhere.
[00:16:41]  You couldn't even go.
[00:16:42]  You couldn't go into the malls and every I mean that was in Orlando.
[00:16:45]  If you drove 20 minutes north, it was a completely different story.
[00:16:49]  They'd be like, um you, you see signs in the door say hey, wear a mask, but you walk in without a mask.
[00:16:54]  No one even looked at you no, anybody.
[00:16:56]  But in Orlando they went at.
[00:16:58]  You know, it was like they went to war with Desantis.
[00:17:01]  But, if you like, I mean, I know people who live in like farmland in southern Illinois who they've never worn a mask.
[00:17:09]  They never wore a mask the whole time.
[00:17:10]  Yeah, so yeah there, you see that you see that local, as much as people talked about federalism at the state level uh, through Covid locally, you could just saw such a difference, even when I was coming here to Auburn.
[00:17:25]  But there were signs on the on the Kroger, you know, telling you to wear a mask and you walked in without a mask and no one said anything to you.
[00:17:33]  So yeah yeah no, it makes it makes a big difference and it makes a big difference around and and and one of the things for me that was kind of interesting about being from, you know like uh I, I went from kind of like a, a very, you know I lived in a very progressive neighborhood in Manhattan and where I live now is, you know it's pretty Trump country.
[00:17:57]  You know it's like about as nice, it's about as like high income of an area that's still Trump country that you could get to.
[00:18:05]  It's like right in that sweet, right in that sweet spot.
[00:18:08]  But look, I certainly in in kind of like uh um, in abstract theoretical, you know libertarian, like you know in what I believe philosophically.
[00:18:21]  If you were to talk about um, who you know my, my critiques of Obama or Joe Biden versus my critiques of Donald Trump well, as everyone who knows who listens to the show, I got plenty of criticisms of all of them and I, you know, I I am not, Not a Trump supporter at all.
[00:18:41]  I'm a guy who thinks Trump, you know, deserves to be locked up for war crimes.
[00:18:45]  And if they end up locking him up over this January 6th stuff, I think that's kind of bullshit.
[00:18:49]  But I'm all in my mind, I'm like, I don't know, dude's a fucking war criminal.
[00:18:52]  I'm not losing any sleep over it.
[00:18:55]  I'm more concerned about what the implications are.
[00:18:57]  But whatever I might hate about Donald Trump versus whatever I might hate about Barack Obama during this whole craziness, it's like, oh, the fucking in this progressive area, they were like, hey, we want to close down the playgrounds and mask up all of the preschoolers.
[00:19:18]  And in this Trump area, they're like, we want to live normal life and let your kids have a normal childhood.
[00:19:24]  And I'm like, man, that makes it pretty easy to decide whose team I'm on.
[00:19:29]  Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to vote the way you want me to vote.
[00:19:31]  It doesn't mean like I'm not going to talk about any of these other things, but I'm not going to ignore that either and go, okay, one culture here is like okay with me living my life.

=== Inflation and Gold IRAs (02:34) ===

[00:19:43]  The other one is clearly not.
[00:19:45]  And I think that's, you know, it's something I've talked about a lot on the show over the last couple of years.
[00:19:49]  That is not something that should be ignored.
[00:19:50]  So it kind of, when you talk about Hopa being talking about how these local communities should be right wing, certainly during the last couple years, I can really understand where he's coming from with that.
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=== Rothbardian Strategy (15:29) ===

[00:22:17]  Well, I think I've told you this before.
[00:22:20]  It was February of last year, 2021.
[00:22:25]  You know, you look at the phone and says Jeff Deist is calling, and you immediately answer the phone.
[00:22:30]  And one of the things he said on that phone call was he said, libertarian, blah, blah, blah.
[00:22:37]  It's like the people who want me dead and the people who don't.
[00:22:41]  Yeah.
[00:22:41]  You know, and then that's just basically I adopted that.
[00:22:44]  I didn't live it.
[00:22:46]  I should have lived it a lot better with a lot of the criticisms I had for people that I shouldn't have been criticizing over that time.
[00:22:54]  But that's where I'm at is there are people out there who literally want you dead.
[00:22:59]  They want your, you know, it's the whole old Sam Hyde quote.
[00:23:03]  They want you dead, your children raped, and they think it's funny.
[00:23:06]  Yeah.
[00:23:06]  I mean, that's what do you mean?
[00:23:08]  Who do you think you were criticizing who you shouldn't?
[00:23:10]  Oh, I mean, I should have just, I mean, I'm like, I'm the GOP Mises caucus, which I'm a part of.
[00:23:16]  We've changed our name to Mises Mayors and we're running Buck Johnson.
[00:23:20]  So I'm not really interested.
[00:23:22]  Who's great, by the way?
[00:23:23]  By the way, let's say I fully support Buck Johnson in his run and I'll do whatever I can to help him.
[00:23:28]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:29]  But, you know, I really hate the Libertarian Party.
[00:23:33]  And so there's a lot of people in the Mises caucus that I love.
[00:23:36]  You know, that I do.
[00:23:37]  I mean, you know, of course.
[00:23:38]  There are people in there.
[00:23:39]  Yeah.
[00:23:39]  And I just, I see it as a bureaucracy that you're just getting, you're getting tied up in.
[00:23:45]  And I never said anything about the, like, I never said I hated the Mises caucus.
[00:23:50]  I just said that they should be like a lobby group or something like that.
[00:23:52]  You know, but I should have just shut up and just like concentrated on my work and concentrated on putting out things.
[00:23:58]  Yeah, I shouldn't, I just feel like it was, it was distracting and it was making, it was giving me a reputation of just complaining about shit.
[00:24:10]  And, you know, like there are still people that are in my orbit that came into my orbit and were asking questions about libertarianism too, that are still doing that kind of stuff.
[00:24:22]  And it's just like, I mean, I'm just, I'm so far now all I'm really concentrating on is teaching people about really elite theory, things like that.
[00:24:33]  And with what we're doing with Buck and as our test case down in Texas.
[00:24:40]  And yeah, so I wasted a lot of time doing a lot of bullshit.
[00:24:46]  So explain elite theory a little bit to anyone who may not be on, who may be unfamiliar with that.
[00:24:51]  Is that kind of just the idea of what you've been talking about with this hoppy and stuff?
[00:24:55]  That there are elites in society, that this is inevitable, and that this is always going to be who kind of drives where the direction of society is.
[00:25:05]  Sure.
[00:25:05]  Yeah, it's exactly what I've been talking about.
[00:25:08]  And the, you know, you can read about it in Burnham.
[00:25:11]  You can read about it in Pareto.
[00:25:12]  You can read about it in Moscow.
[00:25:14]  Like I said, my, my friend Nima Parvini's book that's the populist delusion, get it on Amazon.
[00:25:20]  You can get it at Imperium Press, just breaks it down into like 100 pages.
[00:25:24]  I mean, I read it in two days.
[00:25:25]  I could have read it in a day if I wasn't lazy.
[00:25:27]  And it really just shows like it basically, if you're, if you're open-minded enough to look at it and look at real politic, take emotion out of politics, look at politics and see how it works, you see that what he's talking about in this book is the way it's worked since the first government, the first state was put together.
[00:25:49]  And then you look and you go even further back and you're like, oh, this is how clans worked.
[00:25:54]  You know, this is how it's always going.
[00:25:56]  There's always going to be leadership.
[00:25:57]  There's always going to be somebody with this.
[00:26:00]  And I know everybody hates this word and people think that they can make this thing disappear.
[00:26:04]  There's always going to be people with power.
[00:26:06]  There are always going to be people who have power.
[00:26:09]  How they exercise it and how they use it for influence is what's most important.
[00:26:16]  So if you understand that there are always going to be elites, and I think that's one thing that Hoppe clearly took away from reading all the same people that Nima talks about in this book, that you will see that that is what you need.
[00:26:30]  That is one of the main goals of local politics, too, is if you do not have the most powerful people, and when I mean powerful, I mean the cultural influencers, the people who maybe their family has been in that town for 10 generations.
[00:26:46]  If you don't have them on your side, and if you make enemies of them, you're in deep trouble.
[00:26:50]  You know, you, they, they have to be, they have to be on board with what you're doing.
[00:26:56]  Yeah, well, I think in a way, it almost gets to the heart of like what I was saying before of like people kind of almost misunderstanding what libertarian, what libertarianism is, what liberty is, in a sense.
[00:27:10]  You know, like, I think there's some people who have this idea that liberty is, you know, well, my, you know, my dad wants to tell me I can't smoke pot.
[00:27:21]  Fuck that.
[00:27:22]  I can smoke pot if I want to.
[00:27:23]  No one's hurt.
[00:27:24]  No, you know, I'm not hurting anybody else except myself.
[00:27:27]  And then it's like, well, the government tells me I can't smoke pot.
[00:27:30]  Well, screw them.
[00:27:31]  I should be able to do whatever I want to.
[00:27:32]  And like, really, if you actually take libertarianism to its natural conclusion, it's more like, well, yeah, the person who owns the property might just tell you you can't smoke pot here.
[00:27:49]  You got to get the hell off of here.
[00:27:51]  And then, okay, you're free to go if you own your own property to go do what you want to do on your property.
[00:27:56]  But, you know, like in a way, and this is, again, this will sound fucked up on the first, like, if you just listen to the first sentence of it.
[00:28:05]  But when you think about it, this is really what liberty is.
[00:28:08]  What liberty really is, is dictatorship, but the most incredibly decentralized dictatorship imaginable.
[00:28:16]  So the most like, right?
[00:28:18]  Like we're all like where every property owner is his own dictator.
[00:28:22]  And if you think about it in real life, right?
[00:28:25]  Like we enjoy a lot of this already.
[00:28:27]  We enjoy a lot of this freedom.
[00:28:29]  I mean, what is freedom really?
[00:28:30]  Is freedom that everybody gets a democratic vote over what we're going to do in your living room tomorrow?
[00:28:37]  Well, no.
[00:28:38]  Freedom is that you're the dictator of your living room, that you basically decide that you are the dictator of your relationships.
[00:28:45]  You're the dictator of your life, of your profession, of your like everything that you own.
[00:28:50]  You are the like now, someone else might be able to persuade you or convince you otherwise.
[00:28:55]  But at the end of the day, if you say, I'm done listening and this is the way it's going to be, we will be listening to this music in my home.
[00:29:02]  We will be doing this.
[00:29:03]  And this person needs to get the fuck out of my house.
[00:29:05]  And this person is welcome here.
[00:29:07]  That is essentially what liberty is, but it's at its most decentralized.
[00:29:12]  So if that's the ultimate goal, really you recognize we're never getting away from the fact that someone's going to be the, you know, the shot caller.
[00:29:21]  Someone's going to be the sovereign or whatever you want to call it.
[00:29:24]  You know what I mean?
[00:29:25]  And that.
[00:29:25]  And so the question really just becomes who is going to be that person?
[00:29:30]  That's ultimately what it comes down to is who's going to make the calls about what happens in your living room.
[00:29:35]  And then if you extend that out to like your neighborhood, your town.
[00:29:39]  Now, of course, the Hoppy and Rothbardian vision is that this would be the people who have justly acquired this area.
[00:29:47]  In other words, the property owners.
[00:29:49]  But no one serious was ever arguing that no one will be this.
[00:29:54]  Like it'll just be like, oh, I don't know.
[00:29:56]  We'll all like that's some like kind of commie hippie bullshit, the idea that, oh, we'll all just kind of get along together in a community.
[00:30:03]  So I do think that's an important distinction to, or an important thing for people to internalize and understand.
[00:30:10]  So I think we agree more or less on that.
[00:30:12]  Sure.
[00:30:13]  And what it comes down to is the fact that, you know, and Hoppe talks about it, you're going to have a shared culture.
[00:30:20]  And along with a culture comes this dreaded word of discipline.
[00:30:28]  You have to be self-disciplined.
[00:30:30]  You know, it's like I've talked to people recently, and basically what I was talking about is like, if you have a Hoppe and covenant community, well, maybe having the kind of attitude that Singapore has when people step out of line, which would be, which would not be out of line with Hoppe, where you, somebody starts teaching communism, you try to say, hey, that's, you know, we don't do that here.
[00:30:55]  And if they just persist on it, you physically remove them.
[00:30:58]  Or Hoppe's whole, the one he constantly used about how if your neighbor talking about the non-aggression principle, if your neighbor is burning tires and sacrificing animals in their front yard, you know, it's like, well, okay, technically, they're not.
[00:31:14]  I just, I just, I hear his German accent already coming through while we're doing this.
[00:31:19]  He goes, he is not aggressing against you, but he is performing, I can't even do the accent, performing ritualistic animals.
[00:31:27]  Yes.
[00:31:28]  So I understand what you're saying.
[00:31:29]  So there's something like that.
[00:31:31]  So you have this, people have to be self-disciplined.
[00:31:35]  And, you know, it's, that's one of the reasons why I think that he talks about a right-wing culture is when you travel around this country, and I've, you know, done some, done some, especially around the Midwest, some of the small towns, those towns present as libertarian without knowing the term, just because people have respect for private property.
[00:31:55]  People have respect for you're not going to speed down this road.
[00:31:59]  And it doesn't need to be said.
[00:32:00]  It's unspoken.
[00:32:02]  As my friend Oren McIntyre said, people talk about covenant communities and talk about writing out a contract.
[00:32:08]  He goes, it's almost like if you have to put it down on paper, you've already lost.
[00:32:14]  It should be something that people instinctively know between us that we have this agreement that you're not going to, we're not going to do this.
[00:32:22]  It's like Ryan McMacon said in our documentary.
[00:32:25]  He goes, people come together in these communities.
[00:32:28]  They promise to give up some of their liberty, some of their freedom for the safety, for the safety of being in this community and also for being around people who are like-minded.
[00:32:40]  And I think that when you start talking like that, a lot of people just jump right into that's very status, you know, and people I've seen like, I talk about this all the time.
[00:32:50]  I was in a group on Facebook and somebody had put up a poll, who's the bigger statist, Murray Rothbard or Hans Hermann Hoppe.
[00:32:58]  And I'm just like, okay, I get it.
[00:33:04]  Okay, I get it.
[00:33:05]  All right.
[00:33:06]  I understand where you're coming from.
[00:33:08]  But these are people who think that anarchy is going to be them out on a friggin piece of land by themselves.
[00:33:15]  And, you know, I mean, there is safety in numbers.
[00:33:20]  Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
[00:33:21]  My answer to that question is very, I think it's very easy that they are both absolutely equally anti-statist.
[00:33:30]  It's not that, and I also think that like Rothbard, although like Hoppe built on Rothbard's work, and maybe you could, look, I could even see someone arguing that he, the direction he took it in disagreeing with that, or at least certainly some of it.
[00:33:45]  Like, I don't agree with everything Hoppe said.
[00:33:46]  I don't agree with everything Rothbard said either, but I'm comfortable enough to call myself a Rothbardian or a Hoppean because like, I think basically all like the, I agree with them on the vast majority of the work that they've done.
[00:33:58]  I don't like, I think, for example, I think Rothbard is wrong on abortion and parental rights in general, for or not parental rights, parental responsibilities in general, for the same reason, by the way, for both of both for the same reason.
[00:34:11]  But okay, but like, I don't know, it's like, I agree with like the vast majority of what he said.
[00:34:16]  But I think it's almost a very, it's just a very unserious thing that certain libertarians do, and then it gets used in convenient ways, but that they can go like, look, we're, you should be fully capable of saying, like, look, here is what would be ideal.
[00:34:41]  And also, here's what's preferable to this.
[00:34:44]  Like, you know, you can say, like, A is my ideal, but B is preferable to C.
[00:34:50]  I don't think there's any like issue with that.
[00:34:55]  There's no contradiction for anyone who's like a somewhat like the most basic level of being a nuanced thinker that there's but and so the idea that even like Hoppe is more of a statist, what?
[00:35:06]  Because he says like one form of government is preferable to another form of government while always still making clear that this is the ultimate preference is being over here.
[00:35:16]  I just, this seems so, I don't know, just seems so stupid to me.
[00:35:21]  Like this is, this is really stupid.
[00:35:23]  Well, you know, Hoppe talks about 10,000 Liechtensteins.
[00:35:26]  And I guess, you know, one of the ways he, you know, the way he talks about it and what must be done is you're, you know, you're voting at the local level.
[00:35:32]  And, you know, voting to these people is violence.
[00:35:34]  You know, it's just, you know, it's even if you're voting at the local level, you want to be king over somebody or you're not using agorism and agorism is going to take down, you know, the friggin 100 years of social engineers teaching fucking kids in kindergarten now.
[00:35:51]  And it's like, I don't think that's what's going to happen.
[00:35:54]  I think it's going to be a strategy of basically using a local strategy and then using everything that you can to make the world realize what these people are.
[00:36:07]  Yeah, I had, I debated Sal, Sal Mayweather, I think is Sal Mayweather, right?
[00:36:14]  Yeah, Sally.
[00:36:16]  And about the agorist thing.
[00:36:18]  And I just, I find that like, I'm all for any type of like, you know, I'm for people doing black market activities and I'm for people doing counter economics and things like that.
[00:36:27]  But the idea that you could actually have like, like that that's the solution itself.
[00:36:34]  Like it's like, oh, just have a side hustle where you don't pay taxes on that side hustle.
[00:36:38]  It's like, eh, okay, that's that, that's not a bad idea necessarily for an individual, but how does this like, how does this scale?
[00:36:48]  Like, how do you, how do you produce automobiles, you know, and like not pay taxes on them?
[00:36:54]  Yeah, heavy industry, heavy industry is always the biggest problem of agorism and communism.
[00:36:59]  Right, right.
[00:37:00]  Yeah.
[00:37:00]  There's something interesting about that, you know?
[00:37:02]  And so it's like because agorism, it even says, even Samuel Edward Konkin said it's a left libertarian ideology.
[00:37:10]  Yes, yes.
[00:37:11]  And that's right.
[00:37:12]  And he, of course, gets into, you know, opposing hierarchical forms of businesses and things like that.
[00:37:18]  It's like, oh, yeah, you're starting to let this lefty bullshit corrupt your whole way of thinking because it's not practical.
[00:37:23]  But even Rothbard, right?
[00:37:25]  Like Rothbard always, and even in some really weird ones, would always support what he thought was the lesser evil candidate.
[00:37:33]  I'm not talking about Pat Buchanan.
[00:37:35]  I'm talking about like Bill Clinton and LBJ and like people who are like, really, you almost look back and you go, how the fuck could you, you know, because you have the benefit of hindsight, you're like, dude, this goes so bad.

=== Right Wing Caricatures (08:24) ===

[00:37:47]  But at the time, he's got his own, you know, justification for it.
[00:37:50]  And I'm not saying he's right about all of that, but it was never like this idea that, oh, we can't, we can't exist in the real world and pick preferences between what our options are.
[00:38:04]  That is a particularly goofy strand of libertarianism.
[00:38:08]  And like I said, a lot of them will use, you know, like kind of like the Cato types.
[00:38:14]  We'll use that when convenient and then also abandon that when convenient.
[00:38:19]  So, you know, it's like, oh, you know, well, you're not being a pure libertarian.
[00:38:23]  That's not libertarian at all.
[00:38:24]  But also, we think that so-and-so is better than Trump.
[00:38:27]  You know, like you're like, oh, okay.
[00:38:28]  So it's okay when you do it, but it's not okay when someone else does.
[00:38:32]  So I do, I notice a lot of that as well.
[00:38:35]  Do you, because look, talking about, you know, the stuff with Hoppe and the idea of like radical decentralization being the most like, obviously, I think, well, I think from a libertarian, a pure philosophical libertarian position, you, it is a universal philosophy.
[00:39:00]  So philosophically, you know, like you, you can make an argument as to why anybody's liberty being violated is wrong.
[00:39:09]  And you would want everybody to have their own liberty, right?
[00:39:12]  Like, I, and I certainly would root for, I root for liberty everywhere.
[00:39:16]  I mean, I hope that every inch of the globe embraces liberty.
[00:39:20]  But on a practical level, you can recognize that that's also pretty unlikely.
[00:39:27]  And it's pretty unlikely that anybody's going to over, you know, that like the idea of like, oh, what we would have a to take it to its extreme, we would have a one world government that imposes liberty on the entire globe.
[00:39:41]  Hey, you're an objectivist now.
[00:39:43]  Right, exactly.
[00:39:44]  Probably that's not very likely to work.
[00:39:48]  And logistically, to make that happen, we'd have to give a group of people more power than any human beings have ever had.
[00:39:55]  And I know that that has a tendency to not work out so well.
[00:39:58]  So it's almost, it's a strategic, practical, you know, understanding, which is even what Hoppe says: that look, this is the most likely way to make this work is to make things as local as possible.
[00:40:12]  So I'm with all of that so far.
[00:40:15]  And I should say one thing that I wanted to mention before that the idea of like that it has to be right wing.
[00:40:24]  I think sometimes, you know, there's a tendency from people who might be a little bit allergic to that statement to envision the kind of left-wing caricature of what you mean by right-wing and say, well, what exactly are you saying by right-wing?
[00:40:40]  You know, are you saying that what like, you know, interracial marriage is banned or all the minorities get kicked out of the area or all of that?
[00:40:48]  Somebody wants that in their covenant community.
[00:40:49]  Whatever.
[00:40:50]  I mean, if somebody doesn't want people like that in their covenant community, I mean, that's, I mean, I have no problem with that.
[00:40:55]  Well, and if someone does want that in their covenant community, right?
[00:40:59]  So, okay.
[00:41:00]  So that, but to me, at least.
[00:41:02]  To me, it's more what a person believes in what a person's values are.
[00:41:06]  That's the people that I want to be around.
[00:41:08]  Well, and so what I think is more important, whether or not, just to be more precise, so there's no ambiguity about it, I don't mean anything like anything like that.
[00:41:18]  I, what I mean, if I think that like what's going on, a culture that's going to work with liberty, a culture that's going to be compatible with liberty, is going to be one that is based around families.
[00:41:32]  It's going to be based around a set of values of family, of community, of kind of bond, of obligation to your neighbors.
[00:41:44]  This is more, I think, what's really important.
[00:41:46]  Like, this is what's really important to make things work.
[00:41:50]  It's not something like, I just think it's important to, at least from my perspective, people are going to come.
[00:41:57]  People are going to say it sounds commie.
[00:41:59]  Well, in what sense?
[00:42:01]  Well, I mean, you know, you're everyone's a radical individual.
[00:42:08]  And, you know, you hear all these people just screaming about radical individualism.
[00:42:12]  What is it?
[00:42:14]  We were arguing, a bunch of us online were going back and forth saying, if we could get rid of like two words in the libertarian lexicon, it would be individual and collective and just get those two gone and then let's start over again.
[00:42:28]  So I know it's so, I look, I remember some of them when we were at the Libertarian Party National Convention, you know, we had this system worked out for the Mises caucus of how we were going to vote on every fucking thing.
[00:42:42]  Like, you know, we've stormed that thing like we're taking it over.
[00:42:45]  And we had the numbers.
[00:42:47]  And it was like, and it was, well, kind of.
[00:42:49]  And we had the numbers and we were like, look, this is what we're doing.
[00:42:52]  This is our party now.
[00:42:53]  And it was to the point that they had it where it was pretty hilarious too, that they had for every vote, there were like these signs we'd throw up, like, this is how the Mises caucus is voting.
[00:43:02]  And if it was yes, it was a Ron Paul face.
[00:43:05]  And if it was no, it was a Bill Weld face.
[00:43:07]  So they would just turn it around.
[00:43:08]  It was great.
[00:43:09]  It was so great.
[00:43:10]  Who came up with that?
[00:43:10]  Was that Angela?
[00:43:12]  I mean, it was, it was either Angela or Michael or something.
[00:43:14]  I don't know.
[00:43:15]  I think one of them came up with it, but it was fucking, it was hilarious and it was great.
[00:43:18]  And I remember one of them, one of the Los Brigade woke libertarian types, he heckled us at the beginning and he goes, oh, he goes, very libertarian to vote collectivist.
[00:43:31]  And you're like, man, is this really?
[00:43:34]  Is this really like what you think?
[00:43:35]  Like, first off, we're in a political party, retard.
[00:43:39]  Like, you did not even really like, I don't know.
[00:43:42]  Yes.
[00:43:42]  Yes.
[00:43:42]  It's it.
[00:43:43]  We are voluntarily engaging in a group activity.
[00:43:47]  And by the way, that's what human interaction is.
[00:43:51]  So that shit to me is all like, yeah, that's just stupid.
[00:43:55]  I'm just saying that it's like, if you're going to have any type of society that is going to be absent of like tyrannical imposition, then there's going to have to be right.
[00:44:07]  Okay.
[00:44:07]  So there's not going to be a welfare state.
[00:44:09]  Well, what are we going to do when someone really needs help?
[00:44:13]  Because there are people like that who really need help.
[00:44:15]  Well, what are we going to rely on?
[00:44:16]  It's going to be something.
[00:44:17]  It's going to be something else.
[00:44:18]  And what was it before the welfare state?
[00:44:20]  It was mutual aid societies.
[00:44:22]  It was communities.
[00:44:22]  It was churches.
[00:44:24]  These are the type of things that you're going to need.
[00:44:26]  Now, if you call that right wing, fine, you know, like, okay, then that's what it is.
[00:44:30]  It's right wing.
[00:44:31]  I'm just making the point that there is this perception that, or, or like I said, I think it's a caricature of what right wing means from some that's like, no, that's not what it has to be.
[00:44:43]  It doesn't have.
[00:44:44]  Now, again, I also do kind of agree with you in spirit that, like, if a bunch of people who are fucking like only want to be like a mono, a monolith racially want to go buy some land and do that, okay.
[00:44:56]  I don't, I'm saying, yeah, they have a right to do that, but there's no, I'm just saying, I don't think there's any need for it to be that.
[00:45:02]  I don't think there's any need for it to be something that's like hostile towards some, you know, minority group.
[00:45:09]  I think that it needs to have the foundational structures that have worked throughout human history, which are really based around family, community, established cultural norms, religion, things like that.
[00:45:24]  That's, and I guess that today, I mean, I don't know.
[00:45:26]  I guess today, considering, you know, saying a boy can't be a girl is right wing.
[00:45:30]  So I don't know exactly what that means, but whatever you call that, that's what I'm for.
[00:45:34]  Yeah.
[00:45:34]  I mean, I'm to me, right-wing is anti-egalitarian and knowing that not everybody's the same.
[00:45:43]  Yeah.
[00:45:43]  I mean, not knowing that not everybody's created equal.
[00:45:46]  Sure.
[00:45:47]  If you want to, if you have laws and you want to treat everybody, you're going to treat everybody equally under the law, of course.
[00:45:54]  But people are just not born equal.
[00:45:56]  You know, it's like the one Malice uses, I think you got it from Thomas Sowell.
[00:46:01]  You say, what's the one?
[00:46:03]  The question you ask.
[00:46:04]  And if a right winger says yes and a left winger says, oh, he says, are some people better than others?

=== Anti-Egalitarian Reality (02:56) ===

[00:46:11]  Obviously, some people are better than others.
[00:46:13]  Obviously.
[00:46:14]  I mean, there's, I mean, not to sound like a friggin elitist, but there are people that are just beneath me.
[00:46:20]  Okay.
[00:46:21]  And I mean, the whole woke loser brigade, these people are beneath me and above.
[00:46:26]  Oh, yeah.
[00:46:27]  And there's people.
[00:46:28]  And there are people that I bow down to their intellect, their character.
[00:46:35]  And yeah, I mean, and I want to learn from them and I want to be more like them.
[00:46:40]  I don't think people, people are like that anymore.
[00:46:42]  I think a lot of people just have this individualistic mindset where it's like, they, and, you know, another thing is when you talk about Hoppe and you talk about what must be done, you talk about voting locally and, you know, you're going to get, so, you know, Buck's going to run for city council and Lockhart.
[00:47:00]  Well, people are going to have to vote for him in order to get him in there.
[00:47:03]  Okay.
[00:47:03]  Is that statist?
[00:47:04]  Is that, are we using statism?
[00:47:07]  Well, I mean, in some way, what's the answer otherwise?
[00:47:14]  What is the answer otherwise?
[00:47:15]  How are you going to get if you want whether it's called a private city, private law society, a libertarian order, a narco-capital, how are you going to get there?
[00:47:26]  I mean, it's not going to be by handing out, you know, what we talk about.
[00:47:30]  Jeff and I were talking about, you know, let's go to Africa and hand out constitutions.
[00:47:34]  Maybe that'll change that.
[00:47:35]  That'll change sub-Saharan Africa.
[00:47:37]  No, that's not how it works.
[00:47:38]  It hasn't really done much for America.
[00:47:40]  So I doubt it's going to do much for the sub-Saharan Africa.
[00:47:44]  So it's like, what do you, what do we do?
[00:47:46]  Well, Hoppe's, Hoppe is like, well, political power is everything.
[00:47:50]  Elite power, elite power is everything.
[00:47:54]  You're going to have to, you're going to have to use politics in some way, shape or form.
[00:47:58]  Unless you think that everything is going to collapse, which it probably will federally at some point.
[00:48:04]  I don't think everything will collapse, but I already think stuff is falling apart.
[00:48:08]  I think that you're starting to see cracks.
[00:48:11]  And I think it's a huge white pill where I used to think that all the stuff that they did was evil.
[00:48:17]  Now I see it as like, oh, they're like, they're incompetent now.
[00:48:21]  They're making mistakes.
[00:48:22]  And I actually honestly believe that there are some elites that are on our side that are working.
[00:48:28]  When you see like Roe v. Wade and you see the Supreme Court with the gun, the recent gun, the carry thing.
[00:48:40]  I mean, right.
[00:48:42]  We're getting like these small wins.
[00:48:44]  And it's just, and then you look at what DeSantis is doing.
[00:48:47]  And it's like, how could DeSantis get away?
[00:48:49]  I mean, DeSantis went to war with Disney and won.
[00:48:54]  I mean, it's what.
[00:48:57]  Yeah.
[00:48:58]  And I think, I think in some ways.
[00:48:59]  I wouldn't say it, but I think well, I mean, I think in some ways that's the least of it because DeSantis really went to war with the world in a way.

=== Small Wins for Liberty (02:44) ===

[00:49:07]  And I know, I understand he wasn't perfect on everything.
[00:49:11]  And DeSantis did have lockdowns for a little bit before he finally bailed off of it.
[00:49:15]  So it's not again, but this is still, it's something that I think that there is something, there's a strand of this in libertarianism, or I shouldn't say that.
[00:49:27]  There's a strain of this within libertarians, not within the philosophy, but within the people who call themselves libertarians, who do constantly have a tendency to make the perfect the enemy of the good.
[00:49:42]  It used to be that way.
[00:49:44]  I think we've all been guilty of this to some degree.
[00:49:47]  And this is, I don't know, it's something that happens to people who really care about theory.
[00:49:52]  And, you know, there's pros and cons to that.
[00:49:55]  Because if you don't care about theory at all, you end up having a lot of problems also.
[00:49:59]  But if you put theory above all else, there's also a lot of problems associated with that.
[00:50:04]  Because what really matters is the real world.
[00:50:06]  And in the real world, you can't get anywhere like positive unless you have some theory and then have an actual way to apply that theory to the real world.
[00:50:14]  You kind of have to have a mix of both of them.
[00:50:17]  But the truth is that even if you think it was just symbolic, DeSantis, in the most difficult moment to do it, stood down the rest of the world and said, no, we're doing this a different way.
[00:50:32]  And whether he was perfect or not, he was definitely better.
[00:50:36]  You know, like he was definitely better than almost every other governor and every other world leader across Western civilization.
[00:50:45]  And he was anyone else in that position almost certainly would have done worse.
[00:50:53]  So that is something.
[00:50:54]  You can't like you can't discount that.
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=== Libertarian Owned Watches (15:55) ===

[00:51:52]  Well, let me just say this to the, oh, voting doesn't matter, people.
[00:51:56]  13,000 votes in the other direction for the gay black crackhead.
[00:52:01]  And Florida is destroyed.
[00:52:03]  Florida's main it's tourism.
[00:52:09]  That's how Florida exists on tourism.
[00:52:12]  That crackhead would have shut down Florida for who knows how long.
[00:52:17]  It would have destroyed 13,000 votes.
[00:52:20]  Florida gets to live.
[00:52:21]  Florida gets to exist.
[00:52:22]  Was that that was the margin?
[00:52:23]  It was that?
[00:52:24]  It was that close to you.
[00:52:25]  No, I knew it was a close.
[00:52:27]  And thankfully, there was no libertarian running against him.
[00:52:30]  And fuck you, Henry Ruse, or whatever the hell, Hector Ruse, whatever the fuck your name is.
[00:52:34]  Well, I doubt he'll be the difference in the next one.
[00:52:37]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:52:37]  He's, he's just, he's just, I mean, he's a virtue signaling leftist.
[00:52:40]  So whatever.
[00:52:42]  But the, yeah, I mean, nobody don't mess with DeSantis.
[00:52:46]  I mean, of course, the guy isn't perfect.
[00:52:48]  He's not a libertarian.
[00:52:49]  He's not, you know, no libertarian is going to be happy with what he with what he's doing most of the time.
[00:52:56]  But the fact is that he kept that, he did whatever he could.
[00:52:59]  He became a friggin autocrat in order to save that state and to save tourism in that state.
[00:53:06]  And for that, I mean, I think that Floridians friggin love him.
[00:53:10]  You know how many people I know that moved to move to Florida in the middle of all this just because DeSantis is there?
[00:53:16]  I mean, people we know.
[00:53:19]  Yeah.
[00:53:20]  No, absolutely.
[00:53:22]  And then people we know, because we happen to have a couple mutual, very good friends who live in Florida.
[00:53:28]  And it's like, yeah, I mean, their lives were substantially better because they were there and their kids' lives.
[00:53:35]  And that's something that's very important.
[00:53:38]  You don't want to discount that.
[00:53:41]  And I, you know, I think that I will say, and I think maybe you should be too, somewhat sympathetic to libertarians who go, look, but he should be better on red flag laws and he should be better on some of these issues.
[00:53:56]  And like, I get that.
[00:53:58]  And I also do think there's room.
[00:54:00]  Now, I don't know Hector like personally that well.
[00:54:02]  I wouldn't quite call him all those names that you did.
[00:54:05]  I understand the impulse to say, hey, we want to like pressure, we want there to be pressure on this end to be even better than you are.
[00:54:16]  Do it privately.
[00:54:18]  Yes, I do think that you have to pick your battles.
[00:54:21]  And I think particularly when the stakes are that high, when the stakes are like that high, that it's like this would have been the difference between fucking people's lives being ruined and not being ruined.
[00:54:32]  I think that libertarians have a strong point historically when they've said, look, the Democrats and the Republicans are two wings of the same bird, of the same kind of crony capitalist bird.
[00:54:47]  I think that has been true with a lot of Democrats and Republicans.
[00:54:50]  That is completely true about Romney or Obama.
[00:54:54]  Like, what the fuck should we pick between Romney and Obama being president?
[00:54:58]  Fuck that.
[00:54:58]  They both suck.
[00:55:00]  Like, that should be the correct bat.
[00:55:02]  But DeSantis or the Democrat being governor of Florida?
[00:55:07]  No, that is not.
[00:55:08]  Now, one of those are, they might both be wings of a bad bird, but one of them's way better than the other one.
[00:55:14]  You know what I mean?
[00:55:15]  And like, there should, and, and it's very important, as I've said many times publicly, it's very important for libertarians to never care more about our unified theory than real liberty and real people's lives.
[00:55:31]  Because if you care about your unified theory more than that, then what the fuck are you doing?
[00:55:36]  And people smell that on you and go, well, fuck you then, because who cares?
[00:55:40]  You don't actually really care about people's lives, you know?
[00:55:42]  Okay, so let's, I want to ask, because I think a lot of this has been, you know, it's we're criticizing people who say voting is a violation of libertarianism and stuff like that.
[00:55:54]  And I understand the points you're making about Hoppe.
[00:55:57]  And so I'm pretty much with you on all of that.
[00:56:02]  But is there something more like in theory?
[00:56:05]  We and we could go to strategy in a second, but in theory, is there something more than that that you've rejected about libertarianism?
[00:56:13]  Because Hoppe, while he, you know, has all of this stuff about strategy, he doesn't reject any of the anarcho-capitalist theory.
[00:56:21]  I mean, he's a complete Rothbardian.
[00:56:23]  He's just saying, kind of, this is the best way to get there.
[00:56:27]  This monarchy is preferable to democracy, but preferable to all of that is anarcho-capitalism.
[00:56:34]  So is there something about the actual theory of libertarianism that you think is missing something or has gotten something wrong?
[00:56:41]  Do you get my question?
[00:56:42]  Like, is there actually something flawed in liberty, not just with libertarians, but in libertarianism?
[00:56:48]  Well, I mean, like, to me, private property is essential.
[00:56:53]  Anti-egalitarianism is essential.
[00:56:55]  Freedom of association is essential.
[00:57:01]  Here's the thing: not wanting to implement, not see, because when what Hoppe is talking about doing in what must be done, and I'll get, I'll get to my main main criticism.
[00:57:15]  I'm just going to build to it.
[00:57:16]  Sure.
[00:57:17]  What he's talking about is he's talking about using political power to do this.
[00:57:23]  There's the problem.
[00:57:25]  There's the problem in libertarianism.
[00:57:27]  There's the problem in anarchism: is using people talking about that you can't use.
[00:57:33]  Oh, it's not political power, it's authority.
[00:57:36]  Oh, you have to, it's like, well, if you have authority, you that's how you use the power, but you how can you?
[00:57:44]  I don't understand differentiating authority and power.
[00:57:47]  They go together.
[00:57:48]  If you have power, you have the authority.
[00:57:50]  It's just how you use it.
[00:57:51]  Okay.
[00:57:52]  But it's the fact that when you, you know, I mean, if seriously, if you had the power, if you had political power right now in your area and there was like a This huge move, all of these fucking groomers and wanting to teach gay sex to kindergartners, wouldn't you use it to do everything to quote unquote remove them and get them the hell out of your city?
[00:58:19]  It seems like that that is something that when you mention it, well, that's immoral.
[00:58:24]  Well, there's okay, there are things that you can do that are immoral in politics, sure, but people who want to damage kids, getting them, you know, even like making it so they have to pay 80% in tax or something like that to make them leave.
[00:58:42]  I mean, my thing is offer it to pay them to leave.
[00:58:45]  You know, you offer money to leave.
[00:58:46]  And if they don't want to leave, then you're going to have to figure out a way to get rid of them.
[00:58:49]  Helicopters is the last resort.
[00:58:51]  But I mean, not hearing people talk about and people who are getting involved in politics, people who are taking over political parties, talking about political power being immoral, that makes no sense to me whatsoever, because power just exists.
[00:59:10]  It's there.
[00:59:11]  And as long as people desire a government, as long as there is a market, a need, somebody's going to supply.
[00:59:21]  And the whole idea that it's immoral to use power to create change and change for the better.
[00:59:29]  I mean, put it this way: if you think that your way will increase human flourishing, will increase peace, and you're not willing to use whatever is at your resources in order to make that happen, you're the immoral one.
[00:59:48]  Imagine thinking that you, imagine thinking that you can create peace in this world, or at least in your little area of the world, and you're not willing to do what you need to do in order to do that.
[01:00:00]  I think look in the mirror when you're talking about morality.
[01:00:05]  Right.
[01:00:05]  Okay.
[01:00:06]  So I understand what you're saying, but I mean, the way I look at it is kind of like there's the system that is propping all of this up.
[01:00:18]  Like, I don't think it's there's a real problem of, it's almost like, well, the flaw in libertarianism is that, well, you know, we've, we're letting everyone be free, but we've just got these like, you know, drag queen story hours that are trying to like push all of this stuff on children.
[01:00:38]  I think I look at it as a tremendous amount of force suppressing the natural remedies to this situation.
[01:00:48]  But, you know, the whole, this whole thing is being propped up.
[01:00:51]  Like, where is there a problem?
[01:00:53]  There's a problem in public schools.
[01:00:54]  There's a problem in the universities, which is basically a government program.
[01:00:57]  There's a problem with politicians pushing this stuff, the corporate press pushing this stuff, Hollywood pushing this stuff, like all of this.
[01:01:03]  It's like, yeah, you know, like there's almost two separate questions.
[01:01:08]  What's the libertarian answer to that?
[01:01:10]  Well, I mean, what's the libertarian answer to what specifically?
[01:01:13]  The fact that social engineers have been pushing all of this stuff for 100 years, and then you have every industry.
[01:01:21]  I mean, the only one who's the only person in this country who has attacked head on these people who are trying to, you know, teach gay sex to kindergartners is Ron DeSantis.
[01:01:35]  Yeah.
[01:01:36]  Well, I'm not disagreeing with any of that.
[01:01:39]  I mean, it's not, again, this is why I'm almost like saying like the difference between the theory and the strategy.
[01:01:45]  So in terms of theory, it's like, well, yeah, okay, the answer is that what's been promoting this entire lifestyle, this entire like cultural phenomenon, it's been an incredible amount of statism in every regard that you could imagine.
[01:02:01]  In terms of like, what's your strategy?
[01:02:04]  No, no, okay.
[01:02:06]  It has been proven since COVID started.
[01:02:08]  Private companies are just as fucking dangerous, can be just as dangerous as the government.
[01:02:14]  Private company, you think the government has, you don't think Pfizer has more power than the U.S. government?
[01:02:20]  Yeah, they basically do.
[01:02:23]  Right, right, right.
[01:02:23]  But yeah, Pete, of course, as we know, I mean, this is from any libertarian who's like just read his Rothbard or something like that.
[01:02:30]  Like, yeah, obviously, like, yes, it's not that the state is an idea who actually controls and exerts influence over it are these private companies.
[01:02:39]  I'm not denying any of that.
[01:02:40]  So, yes, to separate them as if, like, no, because they're private, they're okay.
[01:02:44]  It's as ridiculous as saying the Federal Reserve is private.
[01:02:47]  So it's okay.
[01:02:47]  It's like, well, yes, but these private companies without their state privileges would not have nearly as much power as they have now.
[01:02:55]  I mean, look, look, there was an incredible.
[01:02:58]  No, not as nearly as much power, but they could still.
[01:03:01]  I mean, Pepsi had the fourth largest Navy in the world in the 1980s.
[01:03:06]  Yeah, okay.
[01:03:07]  But what Pepsi had the fourth largest Navy?
[01:03:12]  You don't remember they did that deal with like the Soviet Union where they would have people and everything.
[01:03:17]  Right.
[01:03:17]  Okay.
[01:03:17]  But again, that's with colluding with the, you know, the second largest government in the history of the world.
[01:03:22]  So it's like, yes, Pepsi left to its own devices, left to the profit and law center would probably not, or profit and law center would probably not be involved in that.
[01:03:31]  So again, but I'm saying that that's a little bit different than questioning the theory.
[01:03:35]  I mean, yes, it's true that these like private companies, when colluding with government, can do an incredible amount of damage.
[01:03:41]  And I definitely, I think I've been very clear on this through the whole thing that libertarians should never be carrying water for private companies who collude with government.
[01:03:51]  And the pharmaceutical companies, the whole thing is a complete government racket.
[01:03:55]  I mean, they're all propped up based on fucking, you know, the patents on, you know, things that should never be able to be owned anyway.
[01:04:04]  You know what I mean?
[01:04:05]  Like, oh, we own this chemical compound molecule.
[01:04:08]  And then, and then they use the government to enforce these things on people.
[01:04:12]  And then, of course, they use the corporate press, which is essentially an arm of the regime to, you know, propagandize people in order to take these products.
[01:04:23]  I mean, again, I don't think no, again, I think this needs to be separated in a sense between theory and strategy, because you can understand what the theory is.
[01:04:32]  And then we can talk about like, what's the best strategy to get there?
[01:04:36]  But yeah, I mean, if you look, dude, in terms of just like, say, the vaccine that they're pushing on everybody, if you had not had all of the fucking, you know, if Fauci didn't exist and the mandates didn't exist and the propaganda didn't exist, this whatever percentage of the population that got vaccinated, it would have been drastically lower than it was.
[01:05:02]  If there was any type of, you know, when you talk about natural elites, if there were real intelligent scientists who weren't bought and paid for, and instead of them being silenced by all of these social media companies who, again, are doing it very much under the pressure of government, you know, interference, you know, it's this whole big mess at this point, but who are just explaining to people right away that the people who were like at risk for COVID were very sick and very old people.
[01:05:27]  This was known.
[01:05:28]  I remember figuring out this data at the end of March, like at the end of March.
[01:05:33]  It was like maybe the last week in March where you started realizing, wait, hold on, let me see the demographics of the people who have died.
[01:05:40]  You know, this none of this would have turned into what it became.
[01:05:45]  And so, yeah, okay, I get your point that it's like, yes, there are private companies that do a lot of bad too.
[01:05:52]  So ultimately, the correct solution would be, you know, to stop propagandizing third graders about all the insanity of today.
[01:06:05]  Well, the solution would be to have some type of private system that's doing it.
[01:06:11]  That would be the ideal solution.
[01:06:12]  Now, again, like Hoppe saying monarchy is preferable to democracy, anarcho-capitalism is preferable to both of them.
[01:06:18]  Preferable to a completely privatized system would be a system that just isn't propagandizing fucking third graders like this.
[01:06:25]  You know what I mean?
[01:06:26]  So like you need people in control of that system who are not propagating.
[01:06:31]  You need people in control of that system like us who think that.
[01:06:33]  Well, now you're in the realm of strategy.
[01:06:36]  Now you're in the realm of strategy, not theory.
[01:06:38]  So that's almost like the two things that I wanted to kind of like get clear.
[01:06:42]  So is there, but my question is more like, is there something before let's move into the strategy, but is there something just in the theory?
[01:06:50]  Is there something in the theory that's wrong with private property rights, self-ownership, non-aggression, all of that?
[01:06:56]  Austrian economics.
[01:06:58]  Or do you, do you not reject any of that?
[01:07:00]  Well, I mean, I'm not rejecting it, but I don't think that if you're in the realm of theory, I don't think that you can honestly say that big companies won't collude without a government.
[01:07:11]  And I mean, they can get, they can, I mean, and the argument always is, and I've made this argument, is that, well, you know, other companies will other companies can rise up and they can start and they compete again.
[01:07:22]  They can compete against them.
[01:07:24]  Okay.
[01:07:24]  Well, sure.
[01:07:25]  Okay.
[01:07:26]  Right.
[01:07:26]  But what if people don't want to deal with, what if they don't have what it takes?
[01:07:30]  What if people just want to keep dealing with these bigger companies?
[01:07:33]  What if these bigger companies, you know, go decide to get together and have a gigantic company and buy out and make it so profitable for a buyout that they have control of everything.

=== North Star Anarchism (14:30) ===

[01:07:47]  I mean, I don't think that ever really worked without the state.
[01:07:51]  I think there were many times in Rothbard, of course, in the progressive era, it does a great job of covering this.
[01:07:56]  I don't think, I think there were many attempts to do that.
[01:07:59]  And the only way it ever actually worked was going through the state and buying off politicians.
[01:08:04]  So again, I understand that it's like, okay, that's easy to say.
[01:08:07]  And it's much harder to actually get to that point than to get here.
[01:08:09]  But the idea of big companies colluding, it's like the problem is that when you're that big, like when you're talking about on that level, there's such profits involved that it's not like anyone's going to, oh, no one feels like coming in here to try to like compete with them.
[01:08:26]  There's such profits involved that they always draw competition in.
[01:08:30]  I think that now people, people, people are, there are some people who are not only attracted to profits, they're attracted to power.
[01:08:39]  That's true.
[01:08:40]  Okay.
[01:08:41]  Cause I mean, you know, and I mean, I hate to bring up fiction, but the show with Kevin Spacey on Netflix, what the hell was that show called?
[01:08:50]  Where he was, he was a set.
[01:08:51]  I don't know.
[01:08:52]  Yeah, I forget what it was, but he.
[01:08:54]  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:08:55]  I'm sorry.
[01:08:55]  It's Kevin Spacey.
[01:08:56]  Yes, he says.
[01:08:57]  Kevin Spacey and Robin Ray.
[01:08:58]  I can't remember what the hell it's called.
[01:08:59]  But, you know, there was like at one part, like in the first episode ever, his old like campaign manager comes in and he's working for like a lobbyist.
[01:09:09]  And Kevin Spacey, it's like, it might be the first time he stops and looks at the camera and he goes, Remy chold, Remy chose money over power.
[01:09:18]  House of cards.
[01:09:19]  Thanks, Brian.
[01:09:19]  There you go.
[01:09:20]  Thank you, Brian.
[01:09:21]  Remy chose, Remy chose money over power.
[01:09:25]  Terrible choice.
[01:09:26]  Right.
[01:09:27]  Terrible choice.
[01:09:28]  People, I mean, Ted Kennedy died and he didn't own the clothes that he was wearing when he died.
[01:09:35]  They were in a trust.
[01:09:37]  That's what these people do.
[01:09:38]  They have, I mean, it's, you know, you can say, oh, well, in anarchy, there won't be a trust.
[01:09:42]  Well, you have to get to anarchy first.
[01:09:44]  That's why you cannot divorce the theory from the strategy.
[01:09:48]  It can't be divorced.
[01:09:50]  Well, I think that in, I think you, you, from the way I look at it is like, it's like, look, you have to understand what you have to look at like what the goal is.
[01:10:02]  Like, that's almost the first step is to go, okay, so what's the goal?
[01:10:04]  What's the end goal?
[01:10:06]  Of course.
[01:10:06]  And then, because otherwise you can't really work out a strategy to achieve the end goal, you know, and if your end goal is unrealistic, I mean, that's a problem.
[01:10:15]  That's why your theory has to be correct.
[01:10:16]  Yeah, that's a real problem.
[01:10:18]  So, right.
[01:10:19]  So, that's that's why that's why both are important.
[01:10:22]  And so, I would say that I think you, you know, whether or not, look, I think that the ideal end goal is liberty or the maximum amount of liberty that is that is achievable.
[01:10:38]  Now, anarcho-capitalism, I think, is correct theory.
[01:10:43]  It's also kind of an ideal.
[01:10:45]  It's a North Star in a sense.
[01:10:47]  I think people who think that that's, you know, that, you know, I don't think it's around the corner.
[01:10:53]  I don't think we're like about to achieve it, but I do look at that as kind of being like, look, this is our North Star.
[01:10:59]  The North Star is the most voluntary society that we could have, the most free market, the most free, you know, like freedom for private property owners and stuff like that.
[01:11:10]  What you want to then do, if that's the goal, is now come up with a strategy that can move us closer to that goal as close as we can.
[01:11:19]  Now, the thing that I think is an interesting question that I think you have kind of gotten to have talked about a bit, that I think is a very interesting question for libertarians to ponder and a very challenging question that triggers a lot of libertarians is, okay, what exactly is libertarianism?
[01:11:38]  And me and you have talked about this.
[01:11:40]  We talked about this on the phone recently.
[01:11:41]  But what is libertarianism?
[01:11:43]  I mean, is libertarianism an end goal or is it a roadmap?
[01:11:49]  Or is it both?
[01:11:51]  But it doesn't need, you know, it's not exactly, it doesn't exactly logically follow that because it's an end goal, it's also a roadmap.
[01:12:02]  Now, it's possible to be both of those things, but it's not exactly clear why.
[01:12:07]  If it's an end goal, it also has to be a roadmap.
[01:12:10]  And so that's where things get interesting.
[01:12:12]  And I think far too many times libertarians get obsessed about the, well, if this is our end goal, then it also must be our roadmap, which is not necessarily true.
[01:12:23]  And an interesting question for libertarians, an interesting question for libertarians to ponder is: would you support, you know, an act of aggression, perhaps even a very large act of aggression that would bring you closer to the end goal of a more voluntary society?
[01:12:45]  And this is something that is, it's, um, it's a dangerous question to ask, not just because it challenges, not just because it challenges libertarian orthodoxy, but because also you, there's a risk to yourself and to your soul.
[01:12:59]  You know, like there's a risk.
[01:13:00]  It's like you're staring into the abyss and you're a little bit worried it might stare back into you.
[01:13:05]  And you're, you're, you, you know, the Huxley quote about violent means determining violent ends is there's a lot of wisdom to that.
[01:13:13]  You know, it's very easy to say, well, I'll accept these means to achieve these ends and never get to those ends and just become lost in the means.
[01:13:22]  It's a dangerous game to play, but it's also a very important, interesting question to ask.
[01:13:27]  I've thought about this a lot more over the last two years than I've ever thought about it before.
[01:13:33]  That if there was some un-libertarian means to achieve a libertarian end, would you or would you not support that, Mr. Libertarian?
[01:13:44]  And I think that's these type of questions are things that libertarians have been almost allergic to.
[01:13:50]  And I think that's something that you talk about with Hoppe, where he's very not allergic to that.
[01:13:54]  He's very willing to say, Look, I want to get to these libertarian ends.
[01:13:59]  I don't care.
[01:14:00]  You know, like, I'm willing to go through practical means.
[01:14:03]  So, you know, there's something to that.
[01:14:06]  One of the things I wanted to bring up when you talked about ANCAPASTAN being like the North Star and everything, when it comes to Hoppe, you know, and just a great point about, I mean, literally, like, there are people out there who call themselves libertarians and our capitalists, whatever they call themselves, who think that just by local politics, it's an un-libertarian road.
[01:14:33]  But also, as far as anarcho-capitalism being the North Star, I think there is a reason why in What Must Be Done, he calls it 10,000 Liechtensteins and not 10,000 Ankapistans.
[01:14:51]  Because I think he's as much as he talks about anarcho-capitalism, you know, it's like you read, I think people, I think people start Democracy, the guy that failed and don't finish it.
[01:15:04]  Okay, because when you, when you finish it, he starts, he talks a lot about anarcho-capitalism, he talks a lot about multiculturalism, he talks about a lot of no-no subjects that a lot of libertarians don't want to talk about.
[01:15:15]  But he, I think that also Hoppe is, he's a realist when it comes down to it.
[01:15:22]  He looks at the world, he knows what the world is, and that's, I think that's why he uses 10,000 Liechtensteins instead of 10,000 Ankapistans.
[01:15:30]  Because if you're, if you call it 10,000 and if you call it 10,000 Ankapistans, it immediately says, okay, we're going to have anarchy.
[01:15:41]  Not so fast.
[01:15:42]  You know, it's like Walter Block said.
[01:15:44]  I mean, I remember the first time I ever interviewed Walter Block, it was like episode 104 or 105 or something.
[01:15:49]  And I'm over, I'm like closing in on seven, on 770 now.
[01:15:55]  He said, I said, so can we get anarchy?
[01:15:58]  He's like, it's not going to be anarchy in this lifetime.
[01:16:00]  He goes, in my opinion, we need an evolutionary shift in order to get to anarchy.
[01:16:06]  Because I just don't believe that we can get there.
[01:16:08]  And I mean, I was crushed.
[01:16:10]  It's like one of those things like, oh, I'm this happy anarcho-capitalist libertarian who just wants to wants to get to Ancapistan in my lifetime.
[01:16:17]  And Walter Block is saying, it's not going to happen.
[01:16:20]  People have to be different.
[01:16:22]  And people have to change.
[01:16:24]  And I think that that's exactly what Hoppe understands.
[01:16:27]  And I think that's why Hoppe talks about a right-wing culture of responsibility, of anti-egalitarianism, of family, of you know, he talks about that should be based in Christianity and Christian ethics as well.
[01:16:41]  And I think, honestly, I don't think that before I die, you're not going to see anarchy anywhere that isn't like Chaz and friggin Seattle, but not the anarchy we're looking for.
[01:16:55]  Right.
[01:16:56]  But I think there is a really, really good chance of having like a private law city, having a few private law cities, having 10 or 15.
[01:17:05]  And then those, they are a network with each other and a trade network, a network of people just trading ideas.
[01:17:12]  And I mean, I honestly think that that can happen.
[01:17:15]  Well, I think a lot of work.
[01:17:18]  I think to your point about being very white-pilled, there's something really big is happening in our civilization over the last couple of years.
[01:17:31]  And there is a real, there's a real argument you could make about being very pessimistic about what this means.
[01:17:37]  I mean, look, it's like we have gone through something crazy.
[01:17:42]  And it's not to say, again, I think, and this is where I think, and I think a lot of, I think you would certainly agree.
[01:17:48]  And I think a lot of the people that you were talking about, you know, who have like influenced you more recently would agree that, look, the kind of libertarian background that you have is not useless.
[01:18:01]  It's helpful in understanding a lot of these things, even if you're not, even if you've like evolved a bit from there.
[01:18:07]  But there is, look, a lot of people could have said, hey, the government's completely at war with me way before 2020.
[01:18:17]  You know, there's a lot of people.
[01:18:18]  We know the Russ Ulbricks and the fucking, you know, the Duncan Lemps and a lot of these people who, you know, to Duncan Lemp's like wife, who's, you know, the government was as bad as it ever could be way before COVID lockdowns, you know, to people like that, they suffered under totalitarianism way before any of this.
[01:18:37]  You know, so it's not, it's, I'm not saying that the very nature of the state or the system, you know, like that there wasn't anything equally as oppressive that's ever happened to anyone.
[01:18:47]  But for it to happen on such a large scale as it did in 2020 to so many people, not for the crime of like using or selling heroin, which you could argue should there shouldn't be a central authority that locks people up for that.
[01:19:06]  But it's a little bit different to criminalize going to your job or running your business.
[01:19:12]  There's just something a little bit different about that.
[01:19:14]  It's a little bit different to do it to tens of millions of Americans than it is to do it to thousands of Americans.
[01:19:20]  It's just there's something in scale, at least, if not in kind, very different about that.
[01:19:25]  I would argue in kind and in scale.
[01:19:27]  And there, and there's no question.
[01:19:30]  I mean, look, there's, we know a whole bunch of these people.
[01:19:34]  I mean, they're pretty blatant with it.
[01:19:36]  They're like, look, we are going to use climate change as the new thing, but we're going to transition from the COVID thing into the climate change thing, using the precedents that we've set.
[01:19:48]  And also, by the way, we are cracking down on any loud dissidents, at least loud, at least any loud Trump supporters, you know, are like, if you, you know, entered the Capitol building or whatever, I'm not sure.
[01:20:03]  I think they might actually bring charges against Trump or at least ban him from running again.
[01:20:07]  This will be interesting.
[01:20:09]  But, and so there's something scary about that.
[01:20:12]  Not that Trump can't be president again, but that a government would crack down on anyone who opposes their, you know, kind of tight grip on power.
[01:20:20]  But then the flip side to that is like, man, a lot of people are seeing this.
[01:20:24]  A lot of people are seeing what's going on.
[01:20:26]  A lot of people are waking up.
[01:20:27]  A lot of people are pulling their kids out of the public school system.
[01:20:30]  A lot of people are kind of like, you know, there's something interesting going on here.
[01:20:36]  And so I think there's tremendous potential for, look, and Kapistan in our lifetimes?
[01:20:43]  Probably not.
[01:20:45]  But something different, something radically different.
[01:20:49]  I think there really is tremendous potential for that.
[01:20:51]  So I do think that like the idea that there's, there's potential for some areas to just eventually say, hey, look, we've seen how much you're willing to do to us.
[01:21:02]  Fuck it.
[01:21:02]  We're going to live free of your tyranny.
[01:21:05]  And that means like we're ready to do it.
[01:21:07]  And as look, even the kind of like what you and I might both consider like the Lolbert, you know, phase understanding, there is something of value to the fact that it is true that there's far less of them than there are of us.
[01:21:26]  And they can only enforce their will on so many people.
[01:21:29]  Like if enough little localities are willing to say, no, fuck it, we're not doing it.
[01:21:34]  Come make us.
[01:21:37]  They can only do it to so many.
[01:21:39]  Like they don't, they're really not going to be able to send their guns into every little area.
[01:21:43]  So there's something, I do think there's something there to be very optimistic about.
[01:21:47]  Yeah.
[01:21:47]  And what I will say is, you know, I hang out with a lot of right-wing people who are right-wingers, but what's funny is a lot of them will say that they think libertarianism is pretty useless, but they all like Hoppe.
[01:22:02]  And a lot of them like Rothbard, especially Rothbard's like revisionist history kind of stuff, you know, so they're they're they're not completely out of the realm of libertarianism.
[01:22:11]  If you'd ask them, they'd be like, oh, yeah, private property rights and things like that are important.

=== Self-Evident Truths (03:13) ===

[01:22:17]  And, you know, when I changed the name of my show on the first, I was to, you know, my name and then getting liberty right.
[01:22:26]  You know, my whole goal was to reach out to right-wingers because no one has been more red-pilled in the last couple of years than right-wingers, whether it was COVID, whether it was the election, whether it was January 6th.
[01:22:43]  A lot of them screwed up the Ukraine thing.
[01:22:46]  But the, yeah, but a lot of them are ripe for, you know, to hear more about really the founding principles.
[01:22:57]  You know, I mean, when it comes right down to it, I mean, liber, I think that we could trace Ron Paul's libertarianism to like the Declaration of Independence, things like that, you know, where it's like, and the declaration, think about the Declaration of Independence.
[01:23:09]  We hold these truths to be self-evident.
[01:23:11]  That's just basically telling people, fuck you, you know, are endowed by our creator.
[01:23:16]  They don't even say God.
[01:23:17]  They just say our creator.
[01:23:18]  It's something nebulous.
[01:23:19]  It's like, fuck you.
[01:23:21]  What the hell?
[01:23:23]  There's something so beautiful about that.
[01:23:25]  Like to just say it's self-evident that, like, and by the way, I'm not an atheist.
[01:23:30]  I was an atheist for years, but I believe in God.
[01:23:34]  I don't even think that's the right way to say it.
[01:23:36]  I don't think I believe in God.
[01:23:37]  Like, I know that there's a God.
[01:23:39]  Like, I don't believe, you know, like, I kind of know that there's, I know there's a God.
[01:23:43]  I talked to him quite often.
[01:23:44]  He's a good dude.
[01:23:46]  But I'm sorry, I'm still a comedian.
[01:23:49]  But, you know, but it's something so funny about just being like, you go, look, I think it's self-evident that there's a God who wants me to be free.
[01:23:58]  And so fuck you.
[01:23:59]  Something so powerful about saying that.
[01:24:03]  I just told you it's self-evident.
[01:24:05]  I'm not arguing with you.
[01:24:07]  I'm not going, here's why it's logical that I should be free.
[01:24:11]  I'm going, God wants me to be free, obviously.
[01:24:15]  So come and fucking take it.
[01:24:17]  Yeah, there's something really beautiful about that.
[01:24:19]  Look, I think there's that.
[01:24:20]  We were joking around before the show started.
[01:24:22]  I didn't even know where the picture was from, but that one guy who tweeted today where they got, they got my, some guy's wearing my part of the problem shirt with a make America great again hat, you know, protesting at like a Trump rally or whatever.
[01:24:35]  And you're like, wow.
[01:24:36]  So I'm somebody who's saying Trump should be tried for war crimes.
[01:24:40]  You know, he's like, like saying it to anyone who will hear.
[01:24:43]  And yet there's someone out there who's wearing his hat and my shirt.
[01:24:48]  And I think there's something kind of interesting about that.
[01:24:50]  And it's like, it's because they recognize that they're like, look, we, I like what you're saying that you're against this whole system that's that's real.
[01:24:59]  And there is something beautifully libertarian and just kind of like this beautiful, rebellious libertarian spirit about that.
[01:25:07]  It's like, I like what you're saying about that.
[01:25:09]  And I also still like wearing this hat pisses off all of these people who want to rule over me.
[01:25:14]  You know what I mean?
[01:25:15]  Like, I just think there's something, there's something going on here.
[01:25:19]  And I would also say it's forget how you conceptually define left and right.
[01:25:28]  There's also something going on in the left half of America.

=== Rebellious Libertarian Spirit (08:30) ===

[01:25:31]  Yeah.
[01:25:31]  Like, you know, there's something happening there that's big.
[01:25:35]  You know, I don't know exactly what it is, but whatever someone would, you know, a lot of those people, as soon as they step out of the box, they get deemed right-wing.
[01:25:45]  But I mean, are they really right-wing in the sense that people mean?
[01:25:48]  You know, is Joe Rogan really right-wing or is Glenn Greenwald right-wing?
[01:25:53]  Is Jimmy Dore right?
[01:25:55]  I mean, are we going to call these people right-wing?
[01:25:57]  These are very, you know, Alex Berenson, is he right-wing or was he just actually following the science?
[01:26:04]  He was just a guy who actually was like, No, I actually believe the follow-the-science thing.
[01:26:09]  So, I want to like tell you what I see the science being here.
[01:26:12]  So, there's a lot of that too.
[01:26:14]  There's something about, you know, it's very easy to get caught up in the last couple of years in seeing something which I don't think should be ignored.
[01:26:26]  That's very important.
[01:26:27]  That some people love authoritarianism.
[01:26:29]  Don't ignore that.
[01:26:30]  That's an important lesson of the last couple of years.
[01:26:33]  Some people not only love it, but want to help.
[01:26:36]  They really want to help it.
[01:26:37]  Sure, you know, but there is also a large group of people that I think in some ways spans across left and right that resent that, that resent authoritarianism and want to fight against it.
[01:26:49]  And so, that's that's something that's kind of interesting to keep our eye on going forward.
[01:26:55]  All right, guys, let's take a second and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is yokratom.com, home of the $60 kilo.
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[01:27:46]  All right, let's get back into the show.
[01:27:48]  And before we started recording, we were talking about Ben and being convicted.
[01:27:52]  Yeah.
[01:27:54]  Have you ever seen the documentary, The Brink?
[01:27:57]  I did not.
[01:27:57]  No, there's a part in that that is so great.
[01:28:00]  I mean, I was, I was floored.
[01:28:02]  I had to stop it and rewind it to make sure I heard what he said.
[01:28:05]  He basically said, He said, Look, he was, he's, I think he was in a hotel room in Paris and he's he's talking about all the volunteers, the young volunteers that are coming to him.
[01:28:13]  And he's like, I love these, I love these young people.
[01:28:16]  They just don't understand that we need to destroy this government and it needs to be replaced with something better.
[01:28:24]  And when he said that, I was just like, Bannon might not be one of us, but he understands that this thing, you know, I don't know what he wants to replace it with, but he understands that it needs to be destroyed.
[01:28:36]  Did you ever, uh, did you ever see him?
[01:28:38]  I've mentioned this before on the show.
[01:28:39]  Did you ever see him debate David Frum at the Monk?
[01:28:42]  Yes.
[01:28:42]  Yeah.
[01:28:43]  Oh my God.
[01:28:44]  Yeah.
[01:28:44]  Part of that is in the brink.
[01:28:46]  Yeah.
[01:28:46]  Part of that.
[01:28:46]  Really, really interesting.
[01:28:48]  It was, I mean, he goes into the most hostile territory.
[01:28:52]  I mean, they're like to the point that when he first starts speaking, they have to remove several protesters from the fucking crowd.
[01:29:00]  And he just dominates.
[01:29:03]  And I don't agree with everything that Steve Bennon says.
[01:29:06]  He is way too hawkish on China.
[01:29:09]  It's really annoying.
[01:29:10]  Yeah, this is the stuff on China.
[01:29:12]  He's also, he's also weirdly hawkish on Iran, which was always just like a stupid thing in the Trump administration.
[01:29:19]  Like, you know, I don't know.
[01:29:20]  Maybe it was just like something that he thought was a political winner or would like placate the Israeli lobby or something like that.
[01:29:28]  I don't know exactly, but you know, Trump would always have his thing: the worst deal we ever made was the Iran deal.
[01:29:33]  And like, you're like, actually, it was fine, whatever.
[01:29:36]  Who the fuck cares about Iran?
[01:29:38]  Like of all, of all the problems we're dealing with.
[01:29:41]  Israel.
[01:29:41]  Iran.
[01:29:41]  Israel cares about Iran.
[01:29:43]  Right.
[01:29:43]  Well, right, exactly.
[01:29:44]  So it was something, but I do think that this was something I actually remember.
[01:29:48]  Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent here, but I remember the first time I ever took Trump seriously as a political force was so he was out.
[01:29:59]  It was like a couple months into him being a candidate, and he was polling really high and he was getting all these headlines, but it still seemed like, oh, this is Trump's going to sell another book or something.
[01:30:09]  You know, like, he's not really going to be president.
[01:30:11]  I mean, come on.
[01:30:12]  And he went to speak at AIPAC and he got up on the stage and he goes, you know, he had been saying for a while, you know, we should end all these wars.
[01:30:25]  He said we should be neutral in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which to APAC is basically saying, I'm Adolf Hitler.
[01:30:34]  Like, if you, if you say we should be neutral to them, you're basically saying I am your enemy.
[01:30:39]  And he got up there.
[01:30:41]  And I was like, this is going to be interesting to see how they, you know, respond to him.
[01:30:45]  And he goes, let me tell you something.
[01:30:48]  Barack Obama has been the most anti-Israel president in the history of America.
[01:30:53]  And he did the worst deal ever, which was the deal with Iran.
[01:30:56]  And he got like this standing ovation.
[01:30:59]  And I was like, ooh, this dude is something.
[01:31:05]  Like, he's not just someone who's getting the hicks up on their feet.
[01:31:09]  He can also go talk to these guys again.
[01:31:12]  Anyway, that's a tangent.
[01:31:14]  But so Bannon's way, for my taste, and I just think it's way too hawkish on China, way too.
[01:31:20]  But he starts off by talking about the crash of 2008 and the Federal Reserve's response to it and how this completely destroyed the economy.
[01:31:32]  And he goes, even though they bailed us out of this great recession, what did they do?
[01:31:36]  They flooded the market with liquidity and they brought interest rates down to zero.
[01:31:41]  And what did this do?
[01:31:43]  This destroyed the, he was like, this did something that Al-Qaeda couldn't do, the Nazis couldn't do, the Japanese imperialists couldn't do, the British couldn't do.
[01:31:53]  No one could do this.
[01:31:54]  They destroyed the American family by destroying savings.
[01:31:59]  And that goes off on this whole tangent about it.
[01:32:01]  And it's perfect.
[01:32:02]  It's so perfect.
[01:32:04]  And there's really something about that.
[01:32:06]  Like, I'm not saying he's a perfect libertarian, but man, he gets it in a way that almost no other figure on his level of influence that I've ever seen has gotten it.
[01:32:18]  It was interesting to see.
[01:32:20]  Yeah, he's very impressive when he on the subjects that he's really good on that we would agree on.
[01:32:26]  I mean, he's spot on.
[01:32:28]  Did you see when Tho went on his show?
[01:32:30]  I thought it was so great.
[01:32:31]  Yeah.
[01:32:32]  I thought Though did such a great job.
[01:32:34]  I loved it.
[01:32:35]  I loved Tho basically, if I could sum it up, and Though only got like a couple minutes, but he basically went on a show, and I love this.
[01:32:42]  And look, I'm a guy who's in the Libertarian Party, and this is the strategy I'm going down: to try to like really push libertarian like thinking into as much as much of the mainstream as I can get in, like on as big a platform and as much as where there's this whole kind of like dissident cultural movement going on.
[01:33:02]  My mission is to try to put hardcore libertarian values in front of that.
[01:33:07]  You know what I mean?
[01:33:08]  Like at the forefront of that as much as I can.
[01:33:10]  But So Bishop goes on Steve Bannon's show, and it was basically like he had like two minutes.
[01:33:16]  And the first minute was like, I'm a right winger and right winger, and you're a right-winger, and Bannon's great, and Trump's great.
[01:33:23]  And that's why the right-wingers are so great.
[01:33:25]  And then the second minute was like, and that the second minute was like, and that's why we all hate the Federal Reserve.
[01:33:31]  That's why the Federal Reserve is the enemy.
[01:33:34]  And I was watching it and I was like, dude, that's awesome.
[01:33:37]  Like, if you could go in there and just be like, I'm one of you, and I'm telling you as one of you, that we all know that what being us is is hating the Federal Reserve and kind of like shifting the focus.
[01:33:50]  And it was to a point where, and Bannon, I think, was already ripe for that message.
[01:33:54]  And he was like, Yep, absolutely.
[01:33:56]  That's exactly what this whole America first populist thing is about.
[01:34:00]  It's about hating the Federal Reserve.

=== Ugly Swing Back (14:03) ===

[01:34:02]  And it just like left on a, yeah, I think that was beautiful.
[01:34:05]  But that's kind of, you know, I, I am, I'm somewhat humble, somewhat, not exactly a humble guy, but I'm somewhat humble in the realm of strategy.
[01:34:18]  And I think that people doing that kind of like stuff, like, I don't knock tho for what he's doing.
[01:34:23]  I think, like, okay, maybe that's right.
[01:34:26]  Maybe that's like the right way to do it.
[01:34:28]  I also think that making libertarianism in general more something that's palatable to people and not something that's seen as either like this woke bullshit or corporate bullshit or kind of watered down shit is also valuable.
[01:34:49]  So I'm, you know, I, I, I believe in 10,000 Liechtensteins of libertarian strategy in a sense.
[01:34:56]  I think we should all kind of like pursue it where we can.
[01:34:59]  Yeah.
[01:34:59]  Yeah.
[01:35:00]  It has to be.
[01:35:00]  It's not every area is the same.
[01:35:03]  And I wouldn't even, if I was in a predominantly blue area, I mean, I'm not, you're not going to try this in the Bronx.
[01:35:10]  This isn't going to work in the Bronx.
[01:35:11]  It's not going to work in Brooklyn, Queens, you know, where you're from.
[01:35:14]  This ain't going to work.
[01:35:15]  I mean, you, it has to be areas where, you know, that we've escaped to, that we, you know, that we were like, I got out of Atlanta and, you know, I'm, who knows, I may soon enough go someplace smaller or go someplace a little more freer than even where I am right now.
[01:35:32]  Because it just seems that I think that we've gotten to the point where every I honestly believe that they are, it's falling apart up there in the 202 area code.
[01:35:43]  I think they've lost control.
[01:35:46]  And I think that localism is just going to be the way to do it at this point.
[01:35:51]  I just do not.
[01:35:52]  And what the funny thing is, when you talk to people, even, you know, like the people who are more dissident, right, more hardcore right-wingers, they're the same way.
[01:36:02]  They're like, it has to be done local.
[01:36:04]  We have to, you know, we have to build our local communities, take over governments, take over the schools and kick these people out of the schools, kick this curriculum out of the schools.
[01:36:13]  And I just think that if a whole bunch of really smart people are starting to talk about how it's going to be local, because I mean, I don't see anything other than decentralization in the future.
[01:36:26]  Yeah.
[01:36:28]  You have to start now.
[01:36:29]  You have to start now.
[01:36:30]  And well, that's kind of what I, yeah.
[01:36:32]  And I think in a way, and maybe we could transition to this as we as we wrap up here, is that I think that the, to me, the value in anything, I don't know, national or the value in anything that's, that's the kind of like on the largest platform or on the national level or something like that is to try to mainstream those ideas to try to mainstream.
[01:37:00]  This is why some I really like that the Libertarian Party now, and okay, it's not the Democrats or the Republicans, but I like that they're kind of pushing the national divorce conversation.
[01:37:10]  I like that they're at least introducing the idea of like, hey, look, this is a whole new way to think about things.
[01:37:16]  This is what I try to do when I get on the biggest platforms is to be like, look, let me like drop as many red pills in here as I can.
[01:37:24]  Is that this is what we need to think of.
[01:37:26]  We need to think of the federal government as this evil force that is fucking like ruining so many people's lives.
[01:37:33]  And that this is something now you take with that what you will.
[01:37:37]  And hopefully, my goal kind of in all of this has always been to kind of create as many soldiers that will go and fight these local fights as possible that to kind of like create, you know, like open as many people's minds to kind of like a lot of the stuff that we've been aware of for a long time, but that we kind of take for granted.
[01:37:59]  That a lot of people have just never really been presented with.
[01:38:01]  But they, you know, there's those people out there.
[01:38:03]  I'm not saying you can win over 51% of the population or anything, but there's a lot of people out there who are kind of questioning a lot of this and searching for different answers.
[01:38:14]  And if you can kind of like open those people's eyes to a different way of thinking, I think there's real value in that.
[01:38:20]  I also do agree with you that I think it's going to take more than just like, I think it's going to take elites as well.
[01:38:31]  I think it's going to take people with money.
[01:38:32]  It's going to take people with status.
[01:38:34]  Impressive people are going to have to get on board.
[01:38:38]  But I think that the more people we have, the better off we're going to be.
[01:38:42]  What do you see as like the strategy or, you know, as best you could you could think of to try to move towards something better than what we have right now?
[01:38:54]  In my mind, I hate to say it this way because I sound like an elitist, but most people are sheep.
[01:39:04]  They're just going to go along to get along.
[01:39:06]  Okay.
[01:39:06]  Yeah.
[01:39:07]  Find out how many, you know, if you have a local community and a small local community, find out how many people are, find out how many board seats you would need, all these things to take it over.
[01:39:17]  Run all those people, take it over, and then just by fiat, just change, change things, privatize everything.
[01:39:25]  90 to 95% of the people are going to go along with you.
[01:39:29]  They're not going to fight.
[01:39:30]  People just go along to get along.
[01:39:32]  You know, they talk about it how in 1933 in Germany, when Hitler came to power, like people who were wearing communist stuff, KDP stuff, just changed out and automatically they were national socialists overnight.
[01:39:46]  People just want to go along to get along.
[01:39:49]  Take over.
[01:39:50]  I don't know if you can take over your town, but just get control, make change, start privatizing stuff and see how people react to it.
[01:39:58]  If they don't like it, they're going to let you know.
[01:40:01]  But I guarantee you, from my numbers, 90% of the people are going to be okay with it.
[01:40:05]  Then you're just going to have to deal with 10%.
[01:40:08]  10%, 5% of those people will be like, okay, let's see what happens.
[01:40:12]  Another couple percent, it's only going to be like 2 or 3% that you may have to deal with who are going to be hostile to you.
[01:40:20]  Then you can, like I said, you offer to pay them to leave or you tell them that you're, it's going to be uncomfortable.
[01:40:27]  It's going to be uncomfortable for you.
[01:40:29]  I mean, I'm sorry.
[01:40:30]  I think you just, if you take over, you have to let people know that if you're, this is going to be, we are going in the direction of liberty.
[01:40:39]  We are going in the direction of order.
[01:40:42]  And if you don't like that, leave right now.
[01:40:46]  And if you don't want to leave, you're not going to like it here.
[01:40:51]  You're not going to like it here.
[01:40:52]  I'm not saying, I'm not saying you immediately invest in helicopters, but it's a thought.
[01:40:57]  I mean, I know fuel, I know fuel is really bad now and wood chippers would probably be better.
[01:41:02]  But I mean, still, you're going to have to get these people out.
[01:41:04]  You're going to have to get these people out of there.
[01:41:06]  They're going to make trouble for you.
[01:41:07]  But I honestly believe 90 to 95% are just going to be like, all right, this is the way it is now.
[01:41:11]  Okay, fine.
[01:41:13]  Sounds good.
[01:41:14]  I just think that's the way people are.
[01:41:16]  I think they just follow.
[01:41:18]  Well, I think there's, I think there's a lot of people who are just followers.
[01:41:22]  I mean, I think there's no question about that.
[01:41:24]  I also think that like it depends on what area you're in, how much resistance you're going to get, and how, how, you know, plausible it is that things can be moved in different directions.
[01:41:38]  You know, sure.
[01:41:38]  Well, we'll see.
[01:41:39]  Some people have really bought in to a certain ideology and are going to be very tough to move.
[01:41:47]  Those areas might have to just be abandoned.
[01:41:49]  But I do think that there's, you know, there's some to some degree, it does, it does seem like we're getting to a point where one, we're going to go in one of several different directions, but there's only so many different directions that we can go in.
[01:42:14]  You know, like I feel like there's like one direction is like we continue on the path we're on now.
[01:42:20]  But how much crazier, how much crazier can kind of like the woke totalitarianism go?
[01:42:27]  It seems to me like we're at a point where I don't know.
[01:42:32]  Yeah, like I don't know how much further they can go.
[01:42:35]  And then the swing back from that is almost like a, it's almost like a somewhat binary choice between a right-wing authoritarian response or decentralization.
[01:42:49]  Hoppe's talked about this a bunch too, that like we're going to end up in one of these two directions, either radical decentralization or a right-wing dictator, and we should be on the side of radical decentralization.
[01:43:02]  And there is no reason why locally you can be decentralizing, even if a right-wing dictator is taking over in Washington, D.C.
[01:43:11]  And it also helps that you're decentralizing and your town is right-wing.
[01:43:20]  That's distinctly.
[01:43:22]  Yeah, that would help a lot.
[01:43:23]  Because I mean, you and I talked about this on the phone.
[01:43:27]  It almost seems like a given that there is going to be a huge swing to the right.
[01:43:32]  And if there's a huge swing to the right, I mean, there can be, you can be the most principled libertarian who's going to be like, hey, right-wing authoritarianism is just as bad as left-wing authoritarianism.
[01:43:45]  And I'm going to stand up against it and everything.
[01:43:47]  And I'll just, I'm going to be over here in my trying to build my hoppy and community and be right-wing.
[01:43:52]  And that person will just ignore me while you keep crying about how this person, this person's not libertarian.
[01:44:01]  Well, I mean, look, I think that if you do believe in freedom, that you should be like, you should, it's almost like a two-step process.
[01:44:11]  You should support the decentralization, and then you should try your best to make that decentralized area as free as it can be.
[01:44:19]  Of course.
[01:44:19]  You know, like that's, that's kind of the goal is that it's like, because, you know, sometimes people will argue.
[01:44:25]  I did a whole thing.
[01:44:26]  I don't know if they're going to release it or not, but I did a whole thing with one of the guys from Reason about national divorce and kind of like arguing about this.
[01:44:34]  And he was kind of like, he's like, oh, well, you know, you support these areas seceding.
[01:44:40]  And then what if they're not free?
[01:44:41]  You know, and I go, well, then I'd fight for them to be free.
[01:44:44]  That's the next fight.
[01:44:45]  The first fight is to get them away from this, you know, tyrannical government.
[01:44:49]  Every leftist has said when it came to Roe v. Wade being, oh, you're going to take it back to the states and the states are just going to be tyrannical.
[01:44:55]  Shut the fuck up.
[01:44:57]  Well, decentralization.
[01:44:59]  That's a little bit different because the argument of what is really tyranny there is kind of different.
[01:45:04]  But look, even if you were saying something like, oh, okay, because look, you do see a lot of this, at least I feel like a lot of the right wing swing back from some of these things is going to be like ugly.
[01:45:15]  Like it's not like, look, even if like a bunch of people like, I'd imagine you were one of the libertarians like me in years past, but you go, yeah, I mean, if two gay guys want to get married, who the fuck cares?
[01:45:31]  And also, we don't really think marriage should be a state issue.
[01:45:33]  Like, this is just like all silliness.
[01:45:35]  Like, who cares about it?
[01:45:36]  But then even when you saw the current, like that last bill that passed to codify same-sex marriage, you see a lot of right-wingers being like, fuck you, Republicans who supported this thing.
[01:45:49]  And I personally, my, my assumption is that if they had stopped at gay marriage, there wouldn't have been this pushback.
[01:45:58]  But because it went so much further to like, and now we have to tell your five-year-old boy that he should be a girl and all this shit.
[01:46:06]  Now they're like, no, you know what?
[01:46:07]  Fuck you.
[01:46:08]  You don't even get gay marriage.
[01:46:09]  You know, like there's, there's almost like this tendency to like swing back in the other direction.
[01:46:14]  So of course, I think the slippery slope is undefeated.
[01:46:18]  Well, that's right.
[01:46:18]  So I think that the, if there was massive decentralization, the right-wing areas that swing back probably would swing tyrannical in the right-wing direction.
[01:46:29]  And if I was in one of those areas, I would try to argue for them to, you know, I would be on the side of liberty.
[01:46:35]  Like I'll always be on the side of liberty.
[01:46:38]  But first and foremost, I'm going to be against the greatest, you know, threat to liberty, which right now is the U.S. federal government.
[01:46:46]  Sure.
[01:46:46]  It ain't China.
[01:46:47]  It ain't Russia.
[01:46:49]  Like, at least for me.
[01:46:50]  It's not your local.
[01:46:51]  And it's not your local government either.
[01:46:53]  That's the thing.
[01:46:55]  I hear so many libertarians and caps, whatever you want to call yourself, say is like, oh, local government will just be, could be just, sure, it could be, but it doesn't have nearly the power and the resources that a federal government has.
[01:47:09]  So it's a real, you're just, that's just the living in Kapistan in your head thing of all states, all states are, even a local state is, you know, it's not even living, it's not even living in camp in Kapistan in an intelligent way.
[01:47:25]  Because you go, yeah, is it going to be evil?
[01:47:27]  Quite possibly.
[01:47:28]  Is it going to be the largest military in the history of the world with the world reserve currency?
[01:47:33]  Probably not, right?
[01:47:34]  Right?
[01:47:35]  Probably not.
[01:47:36]  So, okay, there you go.
[01:47:38]  All right.
[01:47:38]  Look, we got to wrap up, but we got to, we should, we should probably continue this because we could talk a lot more about this stuff.
[01:47:43]  All right.
[01:47:43]  Pete, what do you got to plug?
[01:47:45]  Let people know where they can find your stuff.
[01:47:47]  My podcast is the Pete Kañone show, over 760 episodes now, and pete substack.com.
[01:47:56]  And I mostly talk about culture war stuff there.
[01:47:59]  And we have a documentary that's coming out soon.
[01:48:03]  I'm not going to give a date.
[01:48:04]  It's called Overpoliced.

=== Overpoliced History (01:20) ===

[01:48:05]  I still think that the police are really one of the most tyrannical threats out there.
[01:48:10]  And anyone who lived through 2020 who doesn't believe that, seeing them stand down.
[01:48:14]  I mean, who thought that the police not doing anything could be tyranny?
[01:48:18]  Just standing by, you know, it just shows exactly how tyrannical they are.
[01:48:23]  So we have a documentary coming out called Overpoliced, and it's going to be about the history of policing and go through all of 2020 and go through just the history of just how awful they are.
[01:48:35]  And also Buck Johnson for city for city council in Lockhart.
[01:48:40]  It's gopmises.org forward slash Pete.
[01:48:43]  If you want to donate and get Buck elected, you know Buck.
[01:48:48]  Buck is one of the best people we know.
[01:48:51]  I don't know anybody.
[01:48:52]  Put it this way.
[01:48:52]  I don't know anybody who doesn't like Buck.
[01:48:54]  And if somebody tells me they don't like Buck, I don't like them.
[01:48:58]  I don't care.
[01:48:58]  I don't like them.
[01:49:00]  Well, I'm also happy to have Buck on the show and talk about the run, his run for this.
[01:49:06]  I mean, I don't know how many people I have in his area who listen to the show, but if there are any or if there's just to raise money or something like that, I'm happy to have him on.
[01:49:14]  I'm a big fan of Buck Johnson.
[01:49:16]  He's great.
[01:49:17]  And I love his show.
[01:49:18]  His show is great as well.
[01:49:19]  All right, dude.
[01:49:20]  Thank you so much for coming on.
[01:49:22]  We'll have to do this again real soon.
[01:49:24]  And thanks, everybody, for listening.
[01:49:25]  Peace.
[01:49:25]  Thanks, Dev.