Dave Smith and Robbie Bernstein dismantle media narratives from Slate, The Nation, and Reason regarding the Mises Caucus takeover of the Libertarian Party. They refute claims that the group is an "alt-right" vehicle for Donald Trump, citing Brian Daugherty's reliance on a single deleted tweet and misrepresenting Jeff Deist's 2017 "blood and soil" speech as fascist when it actually urged engagement with real-world concerns. By exposing these accusations as baseless progressive tropes lacking substantive evidence, the hosts argue that hysterical coverage only proves the movement's significance while urging listeners to join the party despite the controversy. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Government Too Big00:03:36
Fill her up.
You're listening to the Gash Digital Network.
We need to roll back the state.
We spy on all of our own citizens.
Our prisons are flooded with nonviolent drug offenders.
If you want to know who America's next enemy is, look at who we're funding right now.
Every single one of these problems are a result of government being way too big.
You're listening to part of the problem on the Gash Digital Network.
Here's your host, Jay Smith.
What's up, everybody?
Welcome to a brand new episode of Part of the Problem.
I am Dave Smith.
He is Robbie the Fire Bernstein.
We are recording our late night episode, our first episode of the week, which is this is how we do it.
We do it late night, the first episode of the week.
The other ones we record earlier.
But this, you get a different, a different vibe, a different feel from us.
So get ready for that.
All right, Rob.
How you doing, man?
How's everything?
I'm doing great.
I'm having an excellent weekend.
How about you?
Are you really?
Yeah.
Are you just saying that?
A little bit.
All right.
Fair enough.
Well, what have you been up to?
And what do you got coming up, Rob?
Some reporter store in session.
This was the one weekend off, but it was great.
I got to see Ari Shafir tape the Jew thing.
It was amazing.
It's really great.
I like taping.
Yeah, it was really, really great.
I opened for Ari while he was running this four years ago.
He's been planning this for a long time.
And I told it four years ago when he was running.
I go, dude, this is going to be so good.
Like, I was like, this is such a cool thing that you're doing.
It's so funny.
And for, I know you would particularly enjoy it.
But yeah, so I'm very much looking forward to seeing it.
I thought he struck a perfect balance because I feel like if you're an Orthodox Jew, you would like go watch it and just think it was funny.
Like his jokes, even though it's like on like, you know, it's on a lifestyle, but it's very, like, it's all funny.
Like, even if you kept the religion, you would hear some of those jokes in the Bible and go, all right, that's a funny, that's a funny take.
Here's great.
This is what I thought was brilliant about it when I saw him when he was just running the bare bones version of this years ago.
Was that no, okay, it's a guy who he's doing basically a special on Judaism, you know, that's like, and and and like a stand-up special all about it.
And he's a guy who was raised Orthodox Jewish, who is no longer a believer.
So he knows the subject matter very well, but he doesn't believe in it.
But all of his family does.
So it's not as if he hates the people who believe in it.
You know what I mean?
It's coming from a perspective where it's not like, man, fuck you.
It's like, no, he loves a lot of people who believe in it.
And he also does it in a way where someone who has no idea what you're talking about could still enjoy the jokes and like kind of learn something and really laugh a lot at it.
So he's kind of able to create all of that within this comedy special.
It's just very unique.
It was unlike any other comedy special I had ever, or when I saw it, just an hour.
It was unlike any other hour of stand-up I'd ever seen.
And masterful to be able to digest some of like Talmud concepts into something that could then be a setup for a joke.
Yeah.
No, Ari, he's a, he is a talented weirdo.
Sure is.
And a great guy.
Anyway, okay, yeah, go check that out when it comes out.
Ari Shafir Jew will be out sometime in the future.
I guess it's been recorded, so it will be out.
Between now and then, porch tour.
Democracy Under Threat00:06:25
There you go.
Porch tour.
Of course, me and you this weekend will be going off to Chicago, Chicago to go do some gigs.
That wasn't even the right accent that I just did right there.
That was, that was awesome.
It's close enough.
All right.
We'll be going there.
Pork Fest.
We'll both be there.
I'll be at Freedom Fest.
I'll be we got some more stuff coming up and then we'll uh we'll have a bunch more after that coming up.
So come uh come look for us all around in a in a city near you.
Me and Rob are coming around, making the rounds.
Okay, so for today's episode, um, there, this was something I'd been I'd been planning on doing an episode about this for a little while, but over the last few days, there's just always been kind of something else that I was like, yeah, now, as me and Rob talk off air, I'd be like, hey, we should do an episode responding to all of the hit pieces written about the Mises caucus taking over the Libertarian Party.
But then there'd be something else that happened.
I was like, ah, shit, we should really talk about this.
So finally, now, this is going to be the episode where we respond to some of these hit pieces that have been written since we took over the Libertarian Party.
I know there's other stuff going on.
We'll get into it more.
We'll do, we did one episode kind of talking about the January 6th hearings.
We'll do another episode on that, I'm sure, at some point as it progresses.
It's on a weekend break, anyways.
They're trying to meal this for all they could.
So they started on a Thursday, took Friday off.
They got plenty of time on that.
From what I understand, still not doing very well in the rankings.
Still not doing very well in the ratings or whatever.
Still not getting a lot of people to really care.
It's almost as if this threat to democracy, this grave threat to democracy, was not what the people who vote actually care about talking about.
Isn't that an interesting little conundrum, right?
The gravest threat to democracy ever is something that, by the democracy of the marketplace, people weren't really concerned with.
Or, I guess, with the threat of nuclear war and not being able to afford food, you're like, I'll take a dictator right now.
I don't care.
Just can I not be concerned about nukes from Putin?
Yeah.
How about that?
What if it is so funny, like this talk about democracy, but no one ever defines what it means?
You go, what if a majority of people prefer a dictator?
I mean, fuck your head up real good right there.
It's almost like democracy is not an end in and of itself.
Okay.
So, as many people listening to the show, I would even venture to guess the majority of people listening to this show are aware.
The Libertarian Party was taken over by, wait for it, libertarians.
And this has really thrown a lot of people for a loop.
But so we, a couple weeks ago, there was the national convention and the Mises caucus, which is kind of our camp, me and Rob's people, which Rob is the king of.
You know, it's a monarchy, but whatever.
We were a monarch caucus in the Libertarian Party.
And that caucus won every single position.
Every single position that was available that was up for election, which was all of them.
Except being a whiny bitch, Nick Sarwak still has that position.
Yes, that is true.
It's an unofficial position, but yes, he does still, he does still hold the weasel title.
Yes, but that's a jackal title.
Yes, but it's not an official position.
It's just a position that the people acknowledge him as the official whiny bitch weasel.
But anyway, so the party was, there was a big shakeup in the Libertarian Party.
And since then, there has been, this is only a couple weeks ago, but over those last two weeks, there have been several hit pieces that have been written about the Libertarian Party and the direction that it's going in.
So the purpose of this show, I'd say I wanted to respond to some of these pieces, and I wanted to respond to them in the appropriate way, which is to mock them, laugh at them, and to also maybe try to learn what can be learned from this hysterical response.
I've gone a different way where I've been soul searching to find out whether or not I'm really a white nationalist Nazi because I like to believe what I read in the newspaper.
So when I see that, I really have to look inside and wonder, maybe I really have been a Nazi all along.
Well, it's tough when you've always thought of yourself as a Jew who hates racialism and has nothing against any other racial group.
It's a very difficult thing to find out that in fact you were wrong, that you're not Jewish.
You are in fact a white nationalist who hates everybody who's of a different race.
It's very difficult to find that out.
And imagine the pain of finding that out through the pages of Slate.
You know what I mean?
Like I thought maybe like my wife would have told me or like someone I care about, a good friend.
But no, it was Slate who had to tell me that in fact I'm a horrible bigot.
But look, this is look, what I'm getting at here is that, and I've said this for a long time, that if libertarians are ever perceived as a threat, if anyone ever perceives us as something like serious to be contended with, and I don't even mean just like, oh my God, they think the libertarians are going to take over tomorrow.
I just mean if they even think there's anything like, whoa, what's going on with these guys?
They might be making moves, then you're going to see all of this, these slanderous hit pieces come out against us.
That's just what's going to happen.
And so literally there's nothing, there's nothing that's happened in any of these pieces, which isn't exactly what I would have predicted.
It's exactly what I would have expected.
Better Health Insurance00:03:41
So it's interesting to see it.
It's also, I mean, it's just, I will tell you, so while I'm saying I would have predicted this whole thing and I would have expected this whole thing, I will caveat that with watching it actually happen, I'm a little bit taken back by how incredibly weak they are.
That you're like, oh man, I thought you would come with at least a little better than this.
So that would be my one caveat where I'm like, really?
This is all you have?
This is what you're coming at us with.
But I do think that it speaks to the credit of the Mises caucus and the new Libertarian Party.
It says something very positive about us that all of these publications in the corporate press have noticed what's going on and think it's worthwhile to try to stop this.
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All right, let's get back into the show.
You know, I remember you saying to me, Rob, um, and you've said this a few times before, uh, but you made this comment when we were in Reno.
And, you know, you've said that, like, look, you're really like, you're a comedian.
You like to tell jokes and crush on stage and try to build a career for yourself in comedy.
Reason Magazine Piece00:15:42
And you like to read about economics and politics and things like this.
And you're not really a political creature.
But you've said you're like, this Mises Caucus thing, this has potential to it.
Like, this could actually work.
You just kind of see an energy there and you go, oh, this could actually be something.
And what's interesting to me when I see these pieces is I go, they recognize that same thing that you recognized.
They go, oh, there's something going on here.
Because if there wasn't, there wouldn't even be the need to write a piece, right?
Like, why would they even care?
So they write it because they recognize, okay, something's going on here.
And it's, it's against our entire order.
So we have to try to deal with this.
Anyway, that's, I guess, the overview of what I would say.
Uh, going in.
Have you read any of these pieces, Rob?
Uh, yes.
So, yeah, I guess they're trying to get a head start to label and frame it in a particular way, uh, which is definitely uh white nationalist MAGA thing taking over this other party.
I don't even understand it.
Uh, so the pieces I read was uh, I think I read the slate one today, and then also the Reason Magazine one.
The Reason Magazine one was particularly lazy and distasteful.
I don't even remember.
Oh, yeah, I know, I don't remember why I hated it so much, but it just seemed very inaccurate.
Well, I'll tell you, okay, so I'll tell you there, there's been so far, just trying to rattle off at least some of the ones that I could mention.
So, there was uh the Southern Poverty Law Center wrote a piece on the Mises Caucus before the convention, like two days before it.
Um, Reason Magazine wrote a piece a couple days afterward.
Uh, The Nation has written a piece, um, salon.com wrote a piece.
There's probably a few others, there's probably a few others, you know, out there.
Um, it's been the one that uh the only one that pissed me off was the Reason Magazine one that was written by Brian Daugherty.
And, you know, I talked about this a little bit on Michael Malice's podcast.
So I won't go into this piece today.
You can go watch the latest You're Welcome if you want to listen to me talk about this a little bit.
But the reason that that pissed me off is because Brian Daughty is actually like, you know, a libertarian and an intelligent guy.
And it was like, it was like in a two moment.
You're like, oh, really?
So you would write this too.
He wrote, now, Michael Mallins did make this point to me, which I think is fair.
That he goes, look, people, because he's a writer and I'm not.
But he goes, people who write articles don't always choose what their titles are.
Oftentimes, the editor chooses the title.
So you submit the piece and then they just print it with the title they made up.
So it wasn't even so much that the piece was so awful, although it wasn't good.
But this is what really bothered me.
So this was from Reason Magazine.
And I'm going to write a letter to Reason Magazine about this.
But the title was Mises Caucus Takes Control of the Libertarian Party.
And the subtitle was dominating this convention or dominating the convention body by more than two-thirds.
The Mises Caucus claims to offer an edgier, more libertarian organization.
Foes accuse it of right-wing deviationism and racism.
And that was the subtitle.
And it's like to put in the title, foes accuse it of racism, is like, and by the way, the evidence that they had within the article to back up the subtitle being you're racist is that of obviously the Mises caucus, as they pointed out, more than two-thirds dominated the party, won every single position.
We did this by winning the state parties one by one by one and taking all of them over.
I should say all of them, taking the vast majority of them over.
And then what they send their delegates to national, we had the vast majority of delegates there and then take over the whole party.
And their evidence was one state affiliate tweeted one thing that was later deleted, which wasn't like a blatantly racist thing.
It was a satirical tongue-in-cheek thing that didn't hit, wasn't a great tweet, and they deleted it.
That was their evidence.
It's wild, though.
Like I said, that they're trying to kind of anchor and frame it a certain way.
But to present us, firstly, is whatever their first line was of more aggressive.
I don't know the way they categorized us, I wouldn't define the movement that way.
But then to give equal weight to, oh, they're trying to be more aggressive libertarians, but their foes say they're racist.
I mean, that's a crazy way to go.
You could see it this way or this way.
Like, if I just start, if every time we quarreled with someone, I said, let's just say Reason Magazine.
I think they're a bunch of rapists.
So now every time you write an article about Reason Magazine, are you supposed to say Reason Magazine?
What some people view as libertarian literature and foes accuse of being rapists.
Yeah, right.
Right.
Exactly.
What does that mean?
Do you have any legitimacy to the claim that you just get to put the two next to each other?
Like they're both equally weighted.
And as you point out, the one isn't even what we would claim.
The one is almost like what the like a not very charitable interpretation from our enemies would claim we are.
Well, we're here to be edgier.
Is that really what anyone's saying?
Is anyone from the Mises caucus, any leader saying that's the point?
We're here to be edgier, or are we saying we're here to be like principled?
We're here to be like more radical.
We're here, whatever.
You know, it's just like not like pushing the message of freedom is edgier.
You're not going to pretend to be the deep more just war hawky and neutral and loving of minorities.
I don't know what the party's been doing till now, but apparently just going, hey, we're going to actually push a message of freedom is apparently edgier.
Yeah, well, that's and that's exactly right.
And like, so your point of saying, like, oh, like the example of going like, oh, if we were just kind of like, hey, Reason Magazine, who some claim to, you know, to be edgy and others claim to be pedophiles.
Like, you're just like, wait, wait.
So what do you have to back that up?
Oh, one time somebody tweeted something and then they deleted it.
That's it.
That's all you have.
And to me, it's like, I would almost look, because the thing is that I have like, you know, I have relationships with a lot of people at Reason Magazine.
I know Nick Gillespie very well.
And I know Matt Welsh very well.
And I know like some of these people.
And for them, like, I would almost like challenge any one of you, like, go on the record and say that I'm a racist.
Would any one of you be willing to do that?
Probably not.
Because you know, you're full of fucking shit.
Like, it's just not what our movement is about.
And like, to put that in the front, the thing that's so annoying about it is that it's like, and by the way, this is the only one that bothered me, even the least bit, because it's Reason Magazine.
You know, it's like, it's crazy that Timcast would give us like a completely fair piece about it.
Timcast also wrote, wrote a piece about it.
And they would give us a go, but Reason Magazine is going to go, you know, here's what just happened here.
Some people say they're racist.
You're like, so that's really your response.
If you really think about what they're saying when they say that, it's like, so there's this whole argument that's going on.
There's this whole movement to overthrow the current regime in the Libertarian Party.
And it's overwhelmingly successful.
Like overwhelmingly, there's all this energy and enthusiasm.
And to the point that it's not, it's not just like what happened here where we took over the party is that, you know, I have a podcast and I go, hey, I need everybody to go vote in this online election.
Go, you know, there's like a Twitter poll.
I need you to all go click no and all my people go and click no and haha, we won this big thing.
What needed to happen to do this was that people had to go, become members of their state party, become members of national party, show up to state party conventions, get elected as a delegate by their state party conventions.
Then they needed to fly out to Reno, Nevada, get a hotel in Reno, Nevada, you know what I mean, take off work, whatever else they had to do.
They had to go become a delegate, sit on the floor, vote on all of the measures.
There was all like there was a lot that had to happen in order for all of the people who put in all of this work in order to take over the third biggest political party in the United States of America.
And there were arguments the whole way, obviously.
These people were motivated by something.
It was like, hey, here's what we think the Libertarian Party should be.
Here's why we think the messaging coming out of the Libertarian Party is wrong.
And to not take on any of that and just go, you know, I think what the story is here is that you're an awful person.
Right?
Isn't that basically what it is to just say, well, they say you're all racist.
Like people were so motivated to do all that.
Why?
Because they just hate black people.
Like, this is anyone, is anyone taking this seriously?
Could you possibly think that that's the reason why all of these libertarians in this third party went and did all of that?
What do you even mean by this?
And it's like, this is now.
I expect this from the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Nation magazine and Slate and like, or Salon, rather, all these things.
I know.
I expect what you're going to do is say, well, I know what's going on here.
Racism.
Of course.
Because this is what idiot progressives say when they have no understanding of what's happening with any like political or cultural dynamic.
But for Reason Magazine to lead with that was just despicable.
I don't know what else to say.
So anyway, let's, I don't know, let's get into some of these.
Okay, here's the Nation magazine.
Let's go through this and have some fun.
I got to say, I haven't read the Reason Magazine article in about two weeks, but from what I remember, the actual text of the article was pretty inflammatory too.
I mean, the way they categorized from what, like, it wasn't just the headline that was bad.
It was the whole piece.
It's a lot of, yes, you're right.
It's a lot of quoting of what some rival said, you know?
So it's this person who was outvoted 98 to one said they're awful.
And then, but the only evidence that they actually put forward was one tweet from one state affiliate, which was later deleted.
Whatever, we'll get into it.
Because the other idea of giving the tweet.
The idea of just giving equal weight to two, like, I don't know if someone, like I said, my rape example, let's say one person on Twitter raped that Mother Teresa raped them as a child.
And then you have some other one.
And then now you have an article about Mother Teresa, a saint to some, and this other and a rapist.
A rapist to this one guy.
Yeah, not even to this one guy, a rapist to others.
Just others.
Someone made the claim.
So you're allowed to report it.
Yeah.
It's like, shouldn't if you're not a piece of shit and you have some degree of integrity, shouldn't the onus be on you to be like, okay, well, before I put that in the title, what's the evidence that this actually happened?
Is there anything?
What are we going off?
One tweet that one random person said?
Like, wouldn't you go?
Look, there's, if, again, if you're talking about the Mises caucus, the I am probably the most public messenger or, you know, influencer.
I don't know.
Maybe someone else.
There's others, Tom Woods, Scott Horton, you know, people like this.
There's Michael Heiss, who's the founder.
Angela McCardle, who is our chair candidate, who won, who's the chair of the Libertarian Party.
Josh Smith, who's the vice chair, Karen Ann Harlos, the secretary.
I mean, like, there's a bunch of people and other people I'm not mentioning now.
Like, do you believe any one of them is a racist?
Like, do you, do you, what do we even mean by this term?
Do you believe any one of these people involved hates people of different races?
Do you have an argument as to why?
Has there been a pattern there?
If you had something like that, then okay, I could understand it.
But to just be like, well, of the, you know, whatever, of the 38 states that they've taken over, there's one state party who tweeted a thing once that even though it was clearly tongue-in-cheek, we think was racist, even though they deleted it later.
It's like, that's enough to just say, like in the headline, that's what happened here.
You know, it's again, like I said, I don't even care.
It's fucking literally like, I take it as a badge of honor that all of these other fucking publications come at us this way.
And of course, they're going to call us racist.
Of course, that's what progressives do.
But Reason Magazine, you should be better than that.
But of course, of course, progressive outlets, what do they do?
That's like, oh, Joe Rogan is, you know, having people on who argue that the vaccine doesn't work the way they said it did.
It's like, well, what is he racist?
And Elon Musk wants Twitter to be a free speech platform.
What is he?
Racist.
Like anyone who's not a progressive.
That's what racist, the definition of racism in 2022 is you're not a progressive.
That's what they mean by it.
So of course they're going to call us that.
But Reason Magazine, you should be better than that.
I'm not saying you should be great.
I'm not expecting you to be like the Mises Institute.
I'm just expecting you to be better than that.
I do think you guys should be better than that.
But at the same time, I guess Reason Magazine is also trying to write pieces about how taking five-year-olds to drag shows is great.
So I don't know.
I guess I guess I'm wrong about that.
I shouldn't expect it from them.
Okay.
So here we go.
The Nation Magazine, which is a very left-wing publication that has, of course, just like in the sense of the worst of left-wing publications, been completely overtaken by like corporate progressive crap over the last few years.
Yeah.
The Nation Magazine actually wrote like some really good shit back in like the George W. Bush years, but there's that's all over.
Okay.
So here is the piece.
Let's let's get into this a little bit.
Okay.
And try to, by the way, people who listen to this show and like know what we're about, just try to enjoy this, how beautiful this whole thing is.
Embracing Bigotry Logic00:02:26
Okay, here's the title: The Libertarian Party Goes Alt Right by Embracing Bigotry.
Libertarians are poised to help re-elect Donald Trump.
I mean, come on, dude.
Dude, seriously, that's the article title.
I mean, come on.
Like, it's almost, it's out of it.
It's actually funnier than anything you'll see on Saturday Night Live.
Like, that title is just, come on.
That's for anyone who knows anything about what's been going on here.
You're like, that's what you guys had to say.
The Libertarian Party goes alt-right by embracing bigotry.
The Libertarian Party are libertarians are poised to help re-elect Donald Trump.
Now, if we were that's the story here, guys.
As a theoretical, let's just work within their frame of logic.
Whatever that is.
Okay, their frame of logic.
See, you're super, you're super Trump fans, which means that they're also the most bigoted because that's the only people that voted for Trump.
They were bigoted.
So now we've recruited the highest concentration of bigots.
Now, wouldn't that then split the Republican Party that would be the supporters of Trump?
Wouldn't that actually be like a Ralph Nader to the Democrats type thing?
Like, wouldn't we over Donald Trump's chances of being elected if we actually siphoned off the biggest supporters?
Rob, the fact that they're able to avoid that point that you just made is unbelievable.
Like, the fact that you go, okay, so if you go, hey, there's this new group, like, hypothetically speaking, if you go, like, obviously, this is first off, this is the first point to be made.
This is so incredibly fucking retarded.
I'm just saying, within the frame of their logic, it's like, I just, I just have to take one second to go, this is so retarded.
The argument is that we should, the Libertarian Party should look more like Ron Paul than Bill Weld.
Like that's really what got the fucking Mises Caucus going.
It's like we should be the people who oppose wars and the Federal Reserve and the fucking police state and the national spying apparatus and the military industrial complex and all of this.
Who wants to, you know, that's like really what the Mises Caucus is about.
2012 Election Votes00:16:30
But if you want to take it and just go, it's alt-right, embracing bigotry.
By the way, embracing bigotry, meaning I don't know, whatever.
It's also stupid.
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Again, if you, to your point, if you push that aside for a second and go how removed from reality this is, if you say, yes, the argument is that the third party is becoming an alt-right, bigoted, MAGA Trump party.
You go, well, obviously, that would be the worst thing possible for the party that you're saying is an alt-right, MAGA, bigoted party.
It would clearly just hurt.
If you were saying that the Libertarian Party is becoming much more right-wing, Republican-like, well, that would hurt the Republican Party.
That would make it more like who's going to vote for a party like that.
Well, who would vote for a party like that?
Are the people who might vote for the Republicans?
So that would hurt them and hand more of the vote to the Democrats if you live in this universe.
So watch because they will go through.
No, there's some mental gymnastics that they have to go through to not even that they they have another answer for this, but the fact that they don't even acknowledge this is really unbelievable.
We got any lawyers?
Can we hit someone for definite defamation for saying we're rooted in bigotry?
I mean, that would be literally impossible.
Rooted in bigotry doesn't even mean that there's like evidence or a possibility or like rooted in bigotry means that that's our major agenda.
Like that's what, like if we had one founding principle, it would be our bigotry.
How could you possibly prove that?
And what and what can you do?
Here's the problem is you have to, look, I don't believe in defamation laws.
So I'm not going to fucking or slander laws or anything, but I want that Adam Hurt money.
Well, yes, I get that.
The problem is that you have to prove damages and they are clearly helping us.
So there's no way.
There's no way.
Okay.
So let's get into that.
I know what you're talking about.
I was booked all over the country for big theater comedy shows.
So bad.
Ever since that article.
All right.
So here we go.
Third parties have a political impact far greater than their electoral successes.
They are the research and development wing of the political system.
Only once during the exceptional rise of the Republican Party in the 1850s has a third party gained enough support to actually contend for power.
But there are plenty of cases where the two major parties have liberally borrowed issues and ideas from upstart rivals.
Lincoln's Republicans themselves took their stance against the expansion of slavery from the earlier Liberty Party and Free Soil Party.
The Democrats under William Jenning Bryant flinched and watered down the agenda of the People's Party.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt was similarly light-fingered in borrowing ideas from the Socialist Party and other left formations.
In a more sinister vein, Richard Nixon's Southern strategy and dog whistles about law and order were motivated by a desire to steal the thunder of George Wallace, who ran in 1968 as the nominee of the American Independent Party.
Okay.
I mean, I don't know.
I don't really disagree with much so far.
I think it's great to acknowledge that FDR was a socialist.
All right.
The Libertarian Party can rightfully claim to be heir to this tradition of being the seedbed for policy innovations taken over by both Democrats and Republicans.
If the dominant ideology of American politics since the 1970s is neoliberalism, then the Libertarian Party has truly punched above its weight, influencing trends in both economics, the diminishment of the welfare state, and social policy.
The Libertarian Party championed gay rights and drug decriminalization long before the Democrats.
Okay, so the idea that the welfare state has been diminished is fucking completely wrong and bullshit.
We could go through that on some other thing.
But yes, it is true that the Libertarian, you know, when you say the Libertarian Party championed gay rights, yeah, like the Libertarian Party did not believe that the government should be in charge of marriage laws and the government should say that some people can get married and other people can't get married.
I don't know what rights beyond that you mean.
But if you just mean like basic rights, like there shouldn't be laws against homosexuality, then yeah, okay, I'm sure.
Libertarians have always believed that and still do.
And drug decriminalization, yeah, that's true.
Libertarians believe were against the war on drugs way before the Democrats were and still are.
And in fact, here's what's kind of interesting, right?
Is that for the Mises caucus members, Gary Johnson, who they might talk about in this article?
Maybe it was one of the other ones.
I can't even remember.
Gary Johnson in 2016, when he was running, he backed off of, he was in a town hall and he said something about how drugs should be legal.
And then someone, this woman stood up in the crowd and asked him a question.
And she said, you know, my son died from a heroin overdose.
And are you really saying that heroin should be legal?
Because heroin killed my son.
Like it was this weird moment.
And he went, well, look, maybe heroin shouldn't be legal, but I just think that at least marijuana should be decriminalized.
And this drove a lot of libertarians crazy.
Like the fact that, first off, you're a libertarian and you're backing off of the fact that like, yeah, drug prohibition doesn't work.
This drove us crazy.
And of course, he could have made the obvious point, which was that, you know, your son died of heroin when heroin was illegal.
Doesn't that kind of, but he didn't.
He just bitched out and backed off.
And that's, so anyway, it's just funny that they got drug decriminalization.
It's like, actually, we're, yes, you're right.
We were ahead of you guys on that.
And actually, our camp that you're trashing here is like more ahead than the libertarians in general have been on the issue, but whatever.
Okay, back to the article.
In defiance of this history, the Libertarian Party now seems to have entered a topsy-turvy world where it has started mimicking the Republicans.
Since Donald Trump launched his presidential campaign, the dominant political story on the right has been the GOPs becoming steadily Trumpized.
A trend visible in both policy, more protectionist, more anti-immigration, and more anti-immigrant, and more unilateralist in foreign policy and also cultural style, with Trump's insult comedian routine now de rigor among Republican candidates.
In 2016, Gary Johnson became the most successful Libertarian candidate in history, getting nearly 4.5 million votes or 3.3% of the votes cast.
This was three times more than any previous Libertarian candidate, including Johnson in his earlier 2012 run.
Johnson achieved this success by being closer to the kind of old line establishment Republican that the GOP had just rejected.
He was a soft-spoken, cultural, moderate advocate of small government.
As such, he seemed like an alternative to Trump for weary Republicans.
But despite Johnson's strong electoral showing, the Libertarian Party was quickly wrapped by its own internal strife, thanks to a guerrilla faction that wanted to take up culture war politics.
So let me, all right, let's start here if we want to take an actual look at this.
So it's true that Gary Johnson in 2016 had the most votes that any LP candidate had ever had.
It's also true, by the way, that in 2012, at that point, he had the most votes that any LP candidate had ever had.
Joe Biden also has the most votes in, I think, American history.
And how popular is that guy?
Yeah, well, that's true.
That's a good point.
But look, I'll say, look, what happened?
The reason why this happened is because in 2008 and 2012, Ron Paul had these presidential campaigns that like mainstreamed libertarianism.
And then in 2012, after Ron Paul had dropped out, there was still this libertarian candidate named Gary Johnson.
And also it was that like people were more and more frustrated with the two-party system.
And okay, in 2016, obviously a big part of this was that Trump and Hillary were very despised candidates by a lot of people.
But the point is like, what did libertarians get for that?
They got the most votes we've ever gotten.
Okay, so what?
What did we get out of that?
We didn't even get like the membership to the Libertarian Party, like in the long term, wasn't even really like helped that much.
What did anything more libertarian happen in the country?
We got nothing.
Was anything?
Can you point to one government program that was reduced?
How about anything abolished?
Let me know.
I'm waiting.
So the point was that the more votes didn't really do anything.
And so, okay.
Now, the idea that we were at this point, like, doesn't it kind of prove the point that if you're saying in 2016, Gary Johnson gets the most votes ever for any LP candidate.
And then in 2017, the Mises caucus is created and it takes over the entire party in a few years.
Well, doesn't that show that there wasn't that much value in the votes?
You know what I mean?
Like, okay.
So what did you guys really build?
Oh, you built nothing.
Exactly.
So this did, this did nothing for the actual party, let alone the principles that were trying to, you know, get in there.
And then the idea that we were taken over by a guerrilla faction that wanted to take up culture war politics.
Nah, it's just a political faction that doesn't believe in all of the woke nonsense.
But it's not accurate.
If you listen to, again, in the same sense of calling us racists or whatever, if you listen to any of the fucking leaders in this movement, none of what they obsess over is culture war issues.
We certainly do shrug off the idea that we must be progressives in the culture war and we might have different opinions about different issues.
We might even think that like five-year-olds going to a drag queen strip show is wildly inappropriate.
But that doesn't mean that that's what we're, that that's the main issues that we want to talk about.
What we, what our main issues, Rob, me and you, me and you, what have been, as we've been doing this show, which is, by the way, I mean, unquestionably, this is the most influential show in the Mises caucus world and now in the Libertarian Party world.
There's no question.
There's literally no debate that this show is the show in this world.
What have been the number one issues?
What have been the top issues?
I hope I don't blow this one because you might be like, damn, what show have you been on?
But I'll answer this.
One, anti-war.
If you're going to say number one thing, we're anti-war.
And then I would insert our number two as being in the Fed.
Yeah.
And what really is all the nonsense money stuff.
Yes, I agree.
But I would also say that if you look at this show over the last probably, look, if you look at the show over the last two and a half years, probably even above all of that in terms of what we've been focused on is we are anti-COVID regime.
That really has dominated the show more than anything else.
Being we oppose the lockdowns.
Well, no, but you're not wrong.
Like those are probably our priorities, but a lot of that is also because the worst of the COVID regime stuff is over now.
But we are against the lockdowns and against the mandates and against the vaccine passports and skeptical of all of the propaganda around all of it.
Skeptical about the way the lockdowns were sold and the way the vaccines were sold and the way the mandates were sold and the way like all of this against all of that.
Against, like you said, absolutely right, against the wars, against the Fed, against the corporate bailout and the cartelization of the economy in general.
And again, like, you know, these are the things that we care about.
And if you want to compare that, I mean, if you want to compare how much we've talked about, like, compare how much we talk about the COVID regime and the military-industrial complex and the fucking three-letter organizations and the, you know, whatever, all this to how much we talk about culture war issues.
I think it'd be 100 to one.
Like, I mean, literally, I think it'd be 100 to one and the issues we talk about.
So, again, not accurate.
Okay.
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Charlottesville Rhetoric00:16:04
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All right, let's get back into the show.
Back to the article in the Nation.
In July 28th, 2017, Jeff Deist, the president of the Mises Institute, named for libertarian economist Ludwig von Mises, published a blog post arguing that, quote, blood and soil and God and nation still matter to people.
Libertarians ignore this at the risk of irrelevancy.
Now, yes, that's he did say that.
And it was a great speech, if anyone wants to go listen to it.
Okay, back to the article.
The phrase, quote, blood and soil already had unmistakable fascist overtones, but it took on an even more gruesome connotation two weeks after the post during the infamous Charlottesville Unite the Right rally of 2017, where an anti-racist protester was killed.
The white supremacist who tried to dominate the streets of Charlottesville chanted, quote, blood and soil.
Okay.
So here's what they've got.
This is what we're coming with.
Jeff Deist once uttered the word, the words blood and soil.
And then after that, a group of racists also uttered those words.
It'd be one thing if they were saying this happened before he made the speech.
And then he made the speech and you were like, hey, dude, you're clearly referencing this thing.
But it's not.
It was after.
It was, he had no way of knowing that this would happen after that.
So what Jeff Dice's speech was about, by the way, if anyone wants to go listen to it, actually, here's, I've heard so many people bring up that Jeff Dice speech.
And here's what they always bring up.
Literally that.
He uttered the words blood and soil.
You're not allowed to say those words.
You know what I've never heard?
Ever once.
Maybe someone's done this.
Please send it to me if you haven't.
I've never heard anyone take on one of the arguments he was making in the speech and try to refute it.
Never once.
Let's see if anyone out there wants to, but what Jeff Dice was arguing and what he was saying in the speech was he was like, look, libertarians need to get in touch with the real world.
And this was right after, this was right after the 2016 election and Trump had won and all of this.
And he says this thing in the speech.
I thought it was really interesting.
He goes, what would he go?
What would you get in a fist fight over?
Like, what would you actually like put your physical body on the line for to go fight?
And he's like, would it be like to protect yourself?
Maybe to protect your family, you know?
Maybe if someone invaded your neighborhood, maybe if someone invaded your country, he goes, you know, over the last hundred years, a lot of people have fought and died over the idea that there's a threat to their country.
And he goes, what about abstract moral principles?
And he was like, yeah, I don't know.
Maybe, maybe some people would, but he was kind of making the point that he was like, look, here's what really motivates real people, you know?
And he, and then this is the sentence that he said, you know, that they do quote here, but just out of context so you don't get what he's saying.
But he goes, blood and soil and God and nations still matter to people.
And libertarians ignore this at the risk of irrelevance.
Like the point he was making was like, if you're just out here talking about your abstract principles, but not talking about the things that actual people really care about, then you're going to become irrelevant.
So you have to like engage with that.
That was the point that he was making.
And there's, it's a long speech.
He was making a much more nuanced and thoughtful point than I'm giving credit for here.
But to say at Charlottesville, they uttered the same phrase weeks after he said it.
This is what anyone would call nothing.
Okay.
In the wake of that event, Nicholas Sarwak, chair of the Libertarian Party, signed an open letter warning of the dangers of fascism.
Arvin Vora, vice chair of the Libertarian Party, wrote a post arguing that Mises Institute has been turned into a sales funnel for white, the white nationalist branch of the alt-right.
Oh, okay.
One idiot claimed a thing.
That's where we are.
Look at how pathetic what they have to write about this tape.
None of this has anything to do with what happened in Reno.
And this is what they're already like.
This is what the article is.
The ensuing arguments over blood and soil led to the creation of a Mises caucus, which aimed to overthrow the pragmatic Gary Johnson wing of the party and adopt an incendiary culture war politics of the hard right.
No, you fucking liars.
Pathetic is this whole fucking thing.
No, there was never an argument over blood and soil, and no one ever said we wanted to adopt the incendiary culture war politics of the hard right.
What happened is that this idiot, Nick Sarwak, who also, by the way, once said that if Dick Cheney or Adolf Hitler runs for the Libertarian Party presidential nomination, we have an obligation to support them.
By the way, they don't keep that.
They don't keep that.
By the way, if Nick Sarwak was ever in any way a threat to the establishment, believe me, they'd run those pieces a lot.
They'd run the piece.
Gary Johnson said that Jews should be forced by law to bake Nazi cakes.
And Nick Sarwak said that, or at least implied, that maybe you should vote for literally Adolf Hitler if he ran on the Libertarian Party.
That was right here on this podcast, if you guys remember.
Okay.
But that, no one's going to mention that, right?
But that was back before he ran into people and then accused them of assault.
It was a different time.
That's right.
It was a very different time.
But no, the argument wasn't over blood and soil.
What happened was that after Charlottesville, people like that fucking Sharkov, who's faking assault, the fake assault victim, tried to smear Jeff Dice and Ron Paul and Tom Woods and Lou Rock.
Well, as having something to do with Charlottesville, which was bullshit.
And we were all pissed off about that.
But actually, the creation of the Mises Caucus was, and there's proof of this if you want to look at the Facebook posts, was an idea Michael Heiss had way before any of this happened.
So it had nothing to do with blood and soil and had nothing to do with the politics of the hard right.
It was about Austrian economics, you dumb motherfuckers.
It's about human liberty and Austrian economics.
It's just hilarious because they don't even try.
I like the idea of a group of people getting together and going, hey, let's try and be incendiary.
What was the word?
Yes.
That's what we want to do.
We want.
It's so funny.
Like, it's like, even if someone described the opposition, like if these were just people talking to you, like two of your friends got in a fight and one of them described the other one like this, wouldn't you be like, okay, but what's what's his perspective?
Like, like, what would he tell me?
Okay, so then they go on to go, uh, writing in Reason Magazine, Brian Dardy, because of course he gives them all cover for this, a bunch of bullshit.
Then they move on the next paragraph.
In 2021, the Mises Caucus, California invited an anti-Semitic provocateur named Hotep Jesus to speak at a state convention.
Angela McCartle, a leading member, defended the invitation saying, I don't actually think someone who's trying to be a truth seeker and understand what's going on and ask the question about whether or not Jews are running Hollywood is an anti-Semite.
That's what they've got.
Just like imagine, look how pathetic this is.
And there's something like beautiful about all of this.
They call everybody racist.
Here's the closest they could get to dragging one of our people into it is not here.
What did Angela McArdle say?
Oh, nothing about her views, right?
They have nothing about Angela McArdle.
Like if you were saying this, huh?
Yes, he's a black dude.
But so imagine this, right?
So our support of a black guy was an example of our anti-class actually proves how racist.
Actually, proves how racist.
So, but imagine this if you go like, if you were trying to say there's like, there's this movement that's racist and you go, well, here's like one of the leaders.
And Angela McCartle is no doubt one of the leaders of the Mises Caucus movement.
I mean, she's the person we just put in at the highest position.
So if you go, hey, they're really fucked up.
They're like MAGA, fascist, Nazi, racist, whatever.
So they go, so we got a quote, by the way, from their chair.
Wouldn't you expect it to be something about like how she feels about black people or how she feels about Jewish people or how she feels, you know, something that would be like, hey, I think this group of people is awful.
I think this group of people is up.
Now, what you have is her going, being asked about another guy, happens to be a black guy, ask, and her saying, well, I mean, just because someone like asked, like, did Jews have a disproportionate amount of influence in Hollywood?
That doesn't mean they hate Jewish people.
That might just be someone who's like asking about what's going on and trying to get to the truth of everything here.
That's what they have.
Like, that's, oh my God, what a horrible person.
Clearly, this whole movement is about racism.
It's just like, so it's so unbelievable to watch this.
It really is something, even knowing how full of shit they all are to watch this when you're the group that they're going after is like really bizarre.
Well, because yeah, then they quote the fucking um they quote the Southern Poverty Law Center thing.
Um, okay, so here's here's what we got because this is pretty great.
Uh, David Vellante, an active Libertarian Party member, um, says, uh, told of the Libertarian Party National Committee, told Hate Watch, quote, the purpose of what is going on with the Mises caucus is to sabotage the Libertarian Party, to sideline it over the next few years for Donald Trump.
Ashley Shade, another disaffected Libertarian Party member and former chair of Massachusetts Libertarian Party, also spoke with Hate Watch and characterized the Mises Caucus as a tool of the Republican Party.
So that's what that's actually where they've gone with this to such a conspiratorial level that this is the only way.
This is the way, by the way, Rob, without addressing it, that they grapple with the point that you made at the very beginning.
You go, how could this possibly be?
How could it possibly be the plan to help Republicans by making the Libertarian Party racist, Nazi bigots?
Because the Republicans are racist, Nazi bigots.
So wouldn't that pull us?
So they go, so here's where they have to go.
They go, the purpose of what's going on with the Mises caucus is to sabotage the LP, to sideline it, so that then, so they're, this is how conspiratorial they are, that we actually joined the Libertarian Party to sabotage it so that we can then ruin it, leave it, and go support Donald Trump.
And go back to so hold on.
I'm sorry.
I just have to finish this here.
This is actually what they're saying.
I just want you to hear this and actually understand what's being said here, Rob.
The purpose of what's going on with the Mises Caucus is to sabotage the Libertarian Party, to sideline it over the next few years for Donald Trump.
So we are here in their assessment to sabotage the party, destroy it, then when Donald Trump runs again, leave the Libertarian Party and go support Donald Trump.
That's why we created this Mises Caucus in 2017.
So when Donald Trump became the president of the United States, the Mises caucus guys thought to themselves, you know what's the best way to support this president of the United States?
Not to be a Republican.
No, That would be too simple.
I mean, sure, he's the president of the United States.
And if we support him, we'd probably be trying to support him and then get him re-elected.
But no, We're going to leave the Republican Party.
Many of us were never in the Republican Party.
We're going to join a third party.
We're going to make it more like Donald Trump's party, supposedly, even though we all hate Donald Trump.
We're going to join that, take it over with rhetoric very similar to the Donald Trump presidency, supposedly, even though our rhetoric is completely different, but according to these people, in order, because that rhetoric will so tank this party that we can then leave it again and finally go home to support Donald Trump and the Republican Party.
I mean, sure, maybe it would have been simpler to just support him the year that he had won the presidency.
But no, That was too easy.
We were smarter than all that.
We go, we'll be back.
We'll be back for his first year of his second term, which will have a four-year break in between it.
Like, imagine jumping to this conspiracy theory.
What else could you call this other than a conspiracy theory?
You could not find one member of the Mises caucus on record saying this is what we're going to do.
It's like that goddamn insane.
The white pill here is this is what they have.
This is what they have.
Their theory, once again, it makes no sense because I mean, I think they believe that the reason why Trump is so loved is because of the white nationalism, right?
Racism and Hate Groups00:08:04
That's what makes him so popular.
But there's a threat to it, which is these ideas of freedom in the Libertarian Party.
If there's one thing that can defeat Donald Trump, it's this other, possibly even historically not that popular, and historically not that much of a threat.
But after what we did in the last election with Joe, you know, Joe Jorgensen, right, coming into this next one, you don't have to be worried about the Democratic Party.
The real threat to Donald Trump is the Libertarians and the 1% of the vote they got the last time.
So now what we're going to do is we're going to go dismantle that party by bringing it the more popular thing, which is the Republican, white national, right?
And so we're going to ruin what would have been the threat.
Also, we're going to dismantle the people in power, the Nick Starwalk, who actually had this exact philosophy of why don't we do something that's closer to Republicans because that will be more popular.
So we're going to dismantle the guy who actually will state this philosophy, right?
In the name of eradicating the point of view of freedom that would otherwise have been popular, even though historically it's never been popular.
And we're going to run with the white nationalism thing, but that's not going to splinter the Republican Party.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Like, even with the theory.
And if you were going to call this group of people like white nationalists, you know, bigots, MAGA, whatever, as many of these other articles, and we don't need to get into that.
And you get the point.
This is what all the hit pieces have been like, even though we've just given you a taste of one.
You go like, it's almost like then when they make that case, they go, and here's how we know, because one guy said they were.
And here's what we know.
Because one tweet that got deleted could be taken in the worst way possible.
But they can't go like, they can't go, look, all of the leadership is saying this thing.
And it's clearly their plan to go do this and take over this party to destroy it and then move back to the Republicans.
Like they can't say any of that.
Like, because they have nothing.
So it's just, it's literally just these wild conspiracy theories.
Like, what evidence did you actually see?
The evidence that they put in there is what that Angela McCartle once said that having Hotep Jesus on, like someone asked her, like, do you think Hotep Jesus said something about the Jews running Hollywood?
Do you think he's an anti-Semite?
And she goes, I don't know.
I don't think it makes you an anti-Semite to just ask about Jewish influence in Hollywood.
That's literally like, that's what you have.
That's it.
That's your smoking gun that one time our chair, when asked about someone else, said, I don't think that means you hate Jews if you just ask about like where Jewish influence is.
That's it.
Do you have anything about her saying anything about Jews?
Oh, no, you don't.
Oh, you, oh, no, you have nothing.
Do you have anything about her saying that she thinks like black people are less than white people or Jews are less than non-Jews or that?
But no, oh, no, you have nothing even close to that.
Think about how pathetic this is.
So here, by the way, ultimately, here's the major white pill that I take away from all of this.
This is what's encouraging about all of this is that you go, oh, wow.
They're all aware that we're doing something special here in the Libertarian Party.
They're trying to shut it down.
They're shutting it down with the same old tired, boring accusations that every idiot who never gets any traction makes.
Oh, okay.
It's like, wow, they're taking us on the same way the whole fucking loser brigade within the Libertarian Party took us on and miserably failed over the last few years.
Well, that's kind of encouraging.
And they have nothing.
And the fact that no one believes this shit anymore, these terms mean nothing anymore, which is a shame because they really should mean something.
Like if some group of people, even by the way, I'll say this, even if they had a lot of really good ideas, like let's say they were right on a lot of things, but they really just like hated black people or really hated Jewish people or something like that was like gaining political control.
I'm pretty sure me and you right away would be like, ooh, that's a deal breaker.
Fuck.
Even though they're right about wars and cops and drugs and money and all this other stuff, we go, shit, I can't like support this group because they like really hate entire groups of people for immutable characteristics.
That's, that's a deal breaker for me.
It would be.
And so those words should mean something because it would actually mean something if people were any of these things.
But the fact that at this point is just everyone knows they just throw these accusations out.
It's like all these words mean at this point, this is the world we're living in, like racism or sexism or, you know, bigotry, transphobia, like homophobia, all these words, MAGA, alt-right.
All these words mean is you're not a progressive.
And everyone knows that at this point.
So I got to say, I'm encouraged by seeing these articles.
I hope to see a whole bunch more of them.
So, and fuck it.
All the people who want to write these, go write them.
Oh, by the way, I'll say this because I have to end for all of them.
The fucking Salon one, the nation one, the reason one, and fuck you guys.
That's the only one I'll say fuck you two is the reason guys.
The rest of them, thank you for your service.
The Southern Poverty Law Center, if any of you guys want to come on the podcast, open invite, one-on-one, me and you.
You can come on and argue your point, defend your article.
I will be kind.
I will not be shitty to you.
We can have a civil conversation and let's see how well you can defend your position that we're a MAGA alt-right movement or whatever the fuck you call it.
Any one of you, name the time.
I'm happy to have you on.
We'll see.
I'm not holding my breath, but any one of you guys want to come on, more than welcome to.
Any final thoughts, Rob?
Yeah, I failed classes in college where I did no homework and then showed up and just wrote some dribble that had nothing to do with the topic.
And it was closer to what that topic was than their version of reality.
I mean, I don't understand how you can have a job and just like, where do you get?
It's not even interesting fiction.
How do I get one of these jobs?
You don't have to do any research whatsoever.
It's almost like mad libs of like, as was read in this other thing.
And then you just say something sensational or as it can be categorized as.
And it's, it's just, it's really something where, like, you know, they try to make us out like we're the assholes or something like that.
Like, but it's like, dude, you're literally reducing the argument about what's going on here.
Like, look, maybe we're wrong.
Maybe me and you are wrong about everything, but we have arguments for why we think we're right.
And your argument is reduced down to you're an awful person.
That's basically all they're saying.
They're, these people are bad and they're awful and they hate people.
And that's why they won.
It's like, I take like, don't you feel like some obligation, just as a human being to like, oh, if I'm going to say that about someone, I should kind of know what the fuck I'm talking about, I guess.
I take issue with this because I used to be more modest about my opinions, but as we're seeing the unintended consequences of the lockdowns that we spoke out against, and I see what's going on in the Ukraine war that we also spoke out against, these other people are just fucking wrong.
Like, I used to be very open to, hey, I'm not the brightest person, but now I'm looking at this shit and I'm like, no, these people are, I mean, they're just evil.
They're not retarded.
Denying Unintended Consequences00:01:18
They're evil.
That's what it is.
But they're able to be sold on it.
No, I know what you mean.
Look, the same thing has happened with me over the years where you go like more and more.
Like, I'd be like, oh, look, do I really think I'm right about this?
But maybe I'm wrong.
But it's the track record has really solidified myself.
And there was a lot of that was with the Trump-Russia stuff, the COVID stuff, the vaccine stuff, the Ukraine stuff.
I mean, there's just been a lot where you're kind of like, oh, the more and more you realize you're like, yeah, I really, my like, my instincts and my insights are just better than the fucking establishment ones.
Like, I'm, you know, it's like you see the results of it over and over.
They can't even deny it at this point.
I mean, they tried to, but they really can't.
All right.
Anyway, that's going to, that's the end of it.
But like, just so you guys know, and this is what I think the takeaway should be: the fact that the Mises caucus already is getting this type of fucking like heat and hate should make you guys realize that we got something really cool going on here.