Angela McArdle, National LP Chair 2022, critiques Gene Epstein's debate tactics regarding vaccine mandates, rejecting his hypothetical justifications as akin to defending slavery and exposing the VARES database's underreporting of injuries. She contrasts historical medical advice with modern coercive proof-of-vaccination requirements, arguing that current mandates represent a tyrannical departure from libertarian principles. McArdle emphasizes the Los Angeles Libertarian Party's shift toward genuine ideological representation over compromise, advocating for an incremental "battle of inches" strategy to dismantle state overreach while fostering internal unity through non-condescending dissent management. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Justifying Government Infringement00:14:16
What's up, everybody?
Welcome to a brand new episode of Part of the Problem.
I'm Dave Smith.
Of course, that's, I am the host, and so you'd expect me to be here.
I am very excited to be joined today by Angela McArdle, who is the chair of the Los Angeles Libertarian Party.
And she is also, of course, a candidate for LNC chair in 2022.
She has the endorsement of the Mises Caucus, and she has the passionate endorsement of yours truly.
And I'm very excited for her to be the next chair of the Libertarian Party, which she will be.
And yeah, it's been, this is a long time coming.
So thank you so much for taking the time and joining me.
Thanks for having me on.
Absolutely.
My pleasure.
So you just did a big debate.
I just watched it today as it was just put out.
It was actually on my daughter's birthday.
So I was not able to make it.
But, you know, I had to, some things come first.
So I had to be there for my daughter's birthday, but I was very excited about this debate.
And I just watched it today.
It was a debate on vaccine mandates.
And you debated the, what is his position?
He's the chair of the Cato Institute.
No, no, no.
He's, I believe he's an adjunct at Cato and he's on faculty at George Mason University.
He's a constitutional lawyer.
Okay.
Maybe I confused him with the other guy who was the director of the Cato Institute or something like that, who wrote a piece, but that's right.
But he was, we had responded to, he had put out an article in defense of vaccine passports that we had done an episode on.
What's his name, Elon?
Elia Solman.
Elia Solman that you could find this episode a couple months back that we did.
So he was making the libertarian case for vaccine mandates.
Of course, you were opposing vaccine mandates.
I just saw it today.
I had heard wonderful things, but I just wanted to say I thought you did a phenomenal job.
Just excellent.
I highly recommend people go check it out.
It's up on Reason TV's YouTube page for now.
We'll see how long it lasts up there.
But if not, thesohoforum.org will surely have the audio up there for quite a while.
So congratulations on winning the debate.
And how did you feel about it when it happened?
And how do you feel about it now that it's out?
And what's the response been?
Thank you.
So I felt pretty good about it going in.
I felt pretty good about it during the debate.
And I was very satisfied to have won afterwards.
There were definitely a couple of curveballs thrown at me.
One being that he reframed it to be about any and all vaccine mandates, including private mandates.
So I did anticipate that there were going to be some shenanigans and I just went prepared, you know, because that's what it's like when you're doing a debate and you're dealing with slimy attorneys.
Yeah, it was pretty crazy, right?
So the debate is about vaccine mandates.
You're having this debate in New York City in, you know, the middle of what is a medical apartheid state where literally they're checking vax papers wherever you go.
If you want to go to a bar or restaurant down the street, if you want to come into the debate, everyone is forced by legal order to check your vax papers.
And he, this guy, immediately goes, well, we're not really here to debate about that.
We're just talking about theoretically, could there ever be a situation where a vaccine mandate could be justified?
It was a very bizarre thing.
I will say looking back at it, that it was perhaps Gene Epstein is a hero, a God amongst men.
I love him more than I love my own father.
I mean that literally.
But I really love him like a father.
But I do think maybe the resolution should have been made tighter for that reason.
But I was shocked that he would like kind of dodge.
I mean, it would be like, to me, it was almost like if you were debating, like, should we go to war in Iraq in 2002?
And that this was the resolution.
And you went, well, I'm not talking about war right now with Saddam Hussein.
I'm saying, like, should we ever go to war in Iraq?
Like, I don't know, maybe in some someday, like, some other person takes over Iraq and like starts nuking like half the world.
Then should we go to war with them?
You're like, okay, but you're not really going to dodge what's happening right now, are you?
And he kind of tried to.
Yes, he was.
Yeah, absolutely.
He brought that dodge energy.
It was, it was interesting.
Did you think that that was a possibility going in, or did that catch you by surprise?
I anticipated that there was going to be some kind of squirrely weasel stuff.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you, your opening, I will say, actually, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, I got me choked up.
And it was really something I did not expect you to come out like that.
And I knew, and this is one of the reasons why I so enthusiastically support you for chair of the Libertarian Party.
There are some people in the libertarian world and even people in the Mises caucus and kind of in my camp and stuff like that, who I feel like if they were going into something like this, I would be obsessively like calling them and texting them and be like, look, you got to say this and you got to say it like this.
And don't forget to hit this point.
But when I heard that Angela McCartle was going to go debate vaccine passports, I just kind of was like, well, I can kick my feet up and sit back because she is going to crush it.
And you did.
But I did not expect you to take this route.
I thought you would go in and just purely argue kind of like the libertarian case and why this, you know, the mandates are illegitimate and all of this.
But you immediately went after the people who have, you know, and you opened with this just horrific story of this 13-year-old who died from the vaccine.
And, you know, people can argue that like whatever they think the percentages are of people who have negative outcomes from the vaccine, but no one can really argue that that doesn't exist.
Correct.
That doesn't exist.
And you started from there.
And when we are mandating something that we all know will have like, like, will kill some people and will have like these crazy negative effects on some group of people.
And I love that.
I thought it was a brilliant tactic because you turned and then you intentionally turned like the whole, oh, well, if we can save one life thing around on the whole COVID regime and said, like, yeah, well, okay, that's, you did that.
You're, you're defending that.
He, man, it was intense.
So, you know, my debate style is you got to take facts and you got to wrap them in emotional appeal.
And your emotional appeal can't be speculative.
It's got to be real.
It's got to be personable.
And I will tell you, unfortunately, that Sherry's mother is not doing great right now.
So that story just gets sadder and sadder.
But, you know, otherwise, I think that throughout the debate, you need to consistently reinforce everything crappy that's going to happen as a result of this.
And you've got to keep building your case and really drill it into someone's head.
So that was my intention throughout the debate.
And it seems like it paid off.
I hope that it did.
Yeah, no, I think it did for sure.
So, all right, let's talk about a few moments in the debate and that had kind of stuck out to me.
So your opponent, this Cato adjunct scholar, he basically argued, and this just, oh my God, I mean, this is what I was so infuriated by in that piece that he wrote.
But he argued that basically vaccine mandates are okay from a libertarian perspective because there are alternatives that are worse.
And one of the things that was very frustrating is that he kept harkening back to the current situation to make this point.
So he'd go, well, look, I mean, mask mandates are a bigger infringement of liberty than vaccine mandates and like all these other things and lockdowns are a worse infringement.
So we're talking about COVID now.
But then when you'd be opposed to the vaccine mandate, it's like, well, I'm just talking about all vaccine mandates in general.
So there is something that deeply infuriates me about this argument.
And the obvious thing is that it's like, well, you could justify almost any horrific policy based on that logic.
Yep.
I mean, like, look, slavery is not as bad as genocide.
Right.
So like, if I'm, if, if we were going to say, look, well, we're either going to institute slavery or we're just going to kill all of these people, right?
Then you'd go, well, I mean, it's better than that.
So I guess from a libertarian perspective, then okay, slavery is now justified.
Like, I was actually blown away that he, that, that someone who's a scholar could make this argument and not see this kind of like counter to it.
That it's like going.
A constitutional attorney puts out large constitutional treatises, possibly every year.
I've read some of them.
They're phenomenal.
Unfortunately, I'm not going to be recommending his work anymore.
Right.
And that, yeah, a mask mandate.
Okay.
I can take my mask off at home and I actually get away with not wearing it anywhere except the airport or an airplane.
I don't get to pump cardiac issues out of my body.
I don't just like take that off when I get home.
You don't roll back sterility.
I mean, you can try and good luck to you.
And I hope you can.
But that blew my mind.
Yeah.
Well, but that's, I mean, it's, it's like, right.
So there's a few different layers to it.
Like number one, it's like, okay, you can like, like, as I was saying, it's like, there's the idea that like, well, the other threats from the government are worse.
Don't justify this threat now being acceptable from from a libertarian perspective, any more than if I were to say like you know um, I don't know, like if I were to punch some person in the face and then say like well, it was either that or I kill them so oh, okay.
Well, then there's the libertarian case for punching someone in the face.
Hey, this is it's all like so ridiculous.
But, of course like, getting to your point, I mean look, this is like a very fundamental Austrian um um, understanding that value is subjective, and you can sit there and say that um well, just getting a vaccine is no more uh, of an infringement on your, your rights.
Like, it's not such a big deal, it's not as big of a deal as wearing a mask.
Well that's, That's your opinion, but clearly many other people seem to find this to be a much bigger infringement on their rights.
However you feel, even if there were no negative effects to the vaccine, that's still the case.
Or even if you think they're so rare and the vaccine works so well.
Look, after all of these propaganda campaigns, after all of these mandates, after all of these passports, there's still a sizable percentage of the population who refuse to get the vaccine.
So to them, that clearly is a pretty big infringement on their liberty.
To those people, like I, I will guarantee that there's a lot of people who will throw on a mask on an airplane or throw on a mask when they go into a business who will not get the vaccine and are actually willing to get fired from their job or not be able to go out to a restaurant anymore in the city that they live in.
So to those people, it certainly seems like that is a bigger infringement than the mask mandate.
So what libertarian thinks that they just get to decide, no, I've decided it's not that big of a deal to you.
You just have to put up with this.
It's just infuriating.
This is how a lot of Cato policy wonks think, though.
They operate within this framework of government control because they are always simping for government and they desperately want to be recognized and valued by government and higher academic institutions.
And so they're always going to operate within the framework.
They're going to start by saying that some sort of government coercion is justified, which he did later in his debate.
And so let's just pick the one that I personally am the most okay with.
It's really gross.
It's not very libertarian either.
And then for some reason, which I find very funny, and this is why, by the way, when I, the Cato Institute director of immigration, the Alex guy, who he, or what is he, the head of the immigration studies at Cato or whatever.
He's a, yes, who refused to debate me after talking a lot of shit and challenging me to a debate, refused to debate after we raised like 10,000 meals for hungry people or whatever, because I said, I don't support open borders as long as the state exists.
And he goes, well, you're not a libertarian if you don't support open borders.
And my argument is kind of, I mean, I'm doing a debate with Spike Cohen on this next week.
So we'll get into all that stuff.
But my argument is basically that it's like, well, look, there really shouldn't be a state and the state robs from the people.
And these are the commons.
But just because they rob from the people and these are the commons, you can't really deduce from that that those commons then belong to everyone of the world equally.
You know, like it's, no, it's kind of like belongs to the people who they were robbed from.
And we should kind of best as we can approximate return them back to those people.
That's that's more or less my argument.
But okay, if I say that, you're not a libertarian, but yet you get to just pick and choose randomly, completely arbitrarily, what roles you think the state should play and shouldn't play.
Well, if we're going to have a state and we're going to have that we're going to have cops, we're going to have military, we're going to have taxes.
And I go, well, then how about border control?
The Commons and Local Business00:02:38
Like what?
So you're just not allowed to choose the one thing that's not popular amongst your circles, but you can choose vaccine passports like that.
That can be okay because you just decided that that's like acceptable.
Very, very bizarre.
Okay, again, to the point that you made, and I think you're right about this.
And this is why Cato, especially recently under the COVID regime, has been giving all of us such a bad name.
But that you would make the argument as you sit there in the middle of New York City during like in the middle of this crisis that you're like, I'm not even particularly interested in addressing this crisis.
Yep.
Something about that really infuriated me.
It was very off-putting.
I sort of, my perspective was, I was like, I'm going to take it on the chin.
I took it on the chin and I went up and I made my argument because I thought that he's already making himself look really bad.
And I'm not going to get spastic and defensive.
I didn't want to make myself look bad.
I just got to be level-headed and even killed.
But I'm glad that it came across the way that I was perceiving it to be because it was not a good look.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
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So, the other, or at least one other thing that I found pretty remarkable was that he was essentially making the trust the science argument.
I mean, he made it at least three or four times.
Marketplace Insecurity for Libertarians00:05:09
He was like, Well, you know, we're not scientists.
And if the scientists say it's this way, then that's what it is.
Which, of course, you know, misses several key important points, which is that, like, well, first of all, that's not what the scientists are saying.
That is what the state-appointed and approved scientists are saying.
And every other scientist who disagrees finds themselves banished, banned, unpersoned, and silenced.
Yep.
So, like, who is not noticing that over the last nearly two years?
He knows this is just ego and hubris and just willful stupidity.
There was literally an epidemiologist who disagreed with vaccine mandates in the audience.
I believe he asked a question.
And, you know, and related to that, he also said that there was no ideological split or basis in medicine, only in academia.
Like, hello, medicine comes out of academia.
You go to school, you study it.
They're the ones that get funding for all of this research.
The two are perfectly intertwined and interconnected.
But, but yet again, this is exactly what I would expect from someone who is at Cato and simps for government propaganda, essentially.
It's like low self-esteem libertarians.
They just can't stand the idea of someone in mainstream culture disliking them.
So, what's a good example?
He's like Renfield in Dracula.
He's like Fauci's Rinfield, like enthralled to this demon and doing his bidding.
That's the vibe that I got.
Well, I do think, I think that's a really insightful way to put it: that it's this insecurity.
And I think that, I mean, look, I don't know, maybe this is my own perspective or somewhat self-serving to feel this way, but I get this like I get a very kind of visceral response from a lot of these types of guys.
And granted, I'm being very critical of them and I'm calling them out where I see appropriate.
But It seems to me that there's a lot of these people who have institutional positions within the libertarian world who really resent people like me.
And I've talked about this with Michael Malice before, people like Michael Malis, people like Eric July, Tom Woods, like all of these guys who have kind of made it in the marketplace of the libertarian movement.
Like if you want to say, well, what do the people of the libertarian movement support with their dollars in the marketplace?
Like these are the guys.
And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I have like this position in the Cato Institute or whatever.
And there is this kind of insecurity that they know that they can't really make it in the market.
So they're like, okay, but I can make it in this kind of like, you know, like a beltway think tank.
But what does that really mean?
I mean, you guys like, you have no real influence.
You don't have like power within Washington, D.C. You're just like, it's like, I don't know, you either represent the group of people who believe in this stuff or you don't.
And there is this kind of like insecurity that they know they can't really kind of hack it within the marketplace, which is a very interesting thing for a libertarian, but it's a very interesting place for a libertarian to be that leads to, I don't know, some weird arguments.
I'm not sure how they get there.
I haven't figured out the libertarian to Cato ideology pipeline, but I think after we finish cleaning up the Libertarian Party, might be interesting to start setting our sights on some of these built-way organizations.
Yeah.
Or at least just like make them as irrelevant as they should be.
But I think that, you know, I think really it's kind of sad in a way to me because I would like the Cato Institute to be something that we, you know, would be like, hey, look, they're important and they do important work and do all of this.
But if the biggest threat to liberty of our lifetimes rolls around and you're bending over backward to apologize for it, there's a certain point where you're like, well, guys, you have now completely destroyed your credibility.
And I don't like, I don't like, that doesn't make me happy.
It makes me deeply sad.
I agree.
I agree.
It's a tall order to talk about reforming Cato, but I will say never say never.
Yeah.
Well, there you go.
It's, you know, it's potentially a possibility.
Yeah, reforming the Libertarian Party seemed like a tall order too, but you know, we're pretty damn close to getting that done.
We're almost there.
And I would, I would advise listeners that, you know, maybe right now is a time for a temporary ceasefire with Libertarian Party infighting because we have identified some horrific enemies within the liberty movement who are grossly misrepresenting us.
Withholding Welfare from Unvaccinated00:07:17
So, you know, if you want to be outraged at someone, we've definitely identified the person to be outraged at.
It's the guy who says vaccine passports are libertarian and we should withhold welfare from people who don't want to get a shot.
That really grossed me out too.
My God.
I mean, my God, that would be the libertarian argument.
I'm not a fan of welfare, but come on.
You're going to coerce like single mothers and poor people to undergo experimental medical treatments so that they can get a small handout.
That's disgusting.
And I mean, of all, like, and this is what's so sickening to me.
And I made this point when I did the podcast about his piece that he originally wrote: that it's like, it's like, okay, you could apply that type of quote libertarian thinking in so many different directions, so many different directions.
And you're choosing to apply it in the direction that suits what the regime wants at the moment.
Like you could apply that to, You know, we're not going to give welfare to like obese people, or we're not going to give welfare to people who like, you know, whatever, like treat their kids poorly or like something like this, a million different.
I'm not advocating any of those, but you choose to make it about the vaccine, even though for the most part, you know, okay, even if everything he says about the vaccine is true, let's say, hypothetically, the side effects were incredibly rare, and it was demonstrated that it did a very good job of preventing against, you know, whatever they're even claiming at this point.
They're not even really claiming it's a vaccine in the sense that traditional vaccines are, but they're claiming that like you're less likely to get very sick and die from the virus.
So even if that were true, for the vast, I mean, if you look at the numbers of people who have died from COVID, it's like, if you look at the breakdown of it, it's like from ages like zero to 30, it's like 0%.
Like, I don't even think it reaches 1%.
Then from the age of like 30 to 50, it's like 2%.
You know, like it's like not, then from age 50 to 70, maybe a little bit higher.
Then from 70 to like on is like the vast, vast majority of the deaths.
When you're talking about anyone, and all of the vast majority of those people have underlying health conditions, if you're talking about COVID deaths from 50 years old and younger for people who don't have underlying health conditions, it's not a 99% survival rate.
It's a 99.9999 survival rate.
Like people don't die, almost statistically impossible.
So what are you saying?
It takes your 99.99 to a 99.999.
Like what, what are you even arguing that for all of those people, it improves their odds against something that was enormous, astronomically small to begin with?
So if you were going to target welfare payment, you know, for someone, that wouldn't be the thing.
There's a million like health issues or things that are more of a burden on the collective society than not taking the vaccine.
This is just, it's so obviously just simping for the regime.
Like you can't, you couldn't even pretend it's not.
It's a regime is the right word.
Back in 1933, I'm going there.
I'm going there.
Hitler started cleansing the cities of asocials.
So this is before.
We're not talking about the Holocaust.
This is before.
Right.
And he made a, he made an orchestrated attempt, and I believe he was successful to get all Jews off of welfare.
Yeah.
So, so this isn't a Holocaust comparison for that.
No, but that was one of the first, that was one of the first moves: was that no government handouts for Jews before they even started seizing businesses and assets and stuff.
That's right.
So that's where we're at right now.
We're before the horrible thing.
This is this is the tee up for that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's very funny that so many people who get uh even when you say you're going there, it's like so many people, it's funny who get so triggered by uh any comparisons to the run-up to the holocaust are the first ones to call anybody they don't like a Nazi.
Yeah.
This is just a it's a it's like I'm not saying that argument proves our point in itself, but it really is something that's interesting to to to watch.
Like I see this all the time, particularly with the woke libertarian maniacs, but from leftists in general, but I repeat myself.
They that it's like, they'll be like, you can't compare vaccine passports to the run up to the Holocaust.
And, you know, and then the second I talk to any right winger, they don't like, well, he's a Nazi.
And you're like, oh, so you can just call someone a Nazi.
You can't, so you can't compare a government authoritarian policy to government authoritarian policies of the Nazis, but you can just call people Nazis whenever you don't like them.
Yeah.
That's convenient.
Yeah.
I mean, back in back in my day, back in the 90s, we could joke and call each other Hitler, and it wasn't such a horrible slur.
It was like, you just ruined the night, you horrible Hitler, you know, you knocked over a beer at a party, Hitler.
That's now it's just, yeah, now it's a right-wing slur.
Yeah.
So I guess, so one of the other things that your debate opponent, so as I was saying, kind of on the same topic, but I found this unbelievable.
And I know some people don't like when I use the red pill, blue pill analogy from The Matrix, which I don't know.
By the way, I haven't seen the new one yet, but I hope it's not bad.
I think it's a good analogy.
But yeah, I love the blue pill, red pill.
You can't get away from it because there was something about when he talked about the trusting the science.
And I didn't like I didn't get the impression that this guy was just like an evil piece of shit.
That wasn't the impression I got.
The impression I got was that this guy is like trapped in the world of just wanting to believe and incapable of expanding his mind outside of what is this narrow vision.
And maybe I'm wrong about that.
Just, I'm not trying to psychoanalyze him, just the impression I got.
But he said at one point, he goes, something along the lines, I don't know if you remember this moment, but he goes, well, you know, there are more left-wing people in academia than right-wing people.
So if all the left-wingers have a perspective on something, that could possibly indicate some bias.
But if the left-wingers and the right-wing scientists are all kind of saying the same thing, then we can pretty safely say there is no political bias.
And you're like, dude, so you're telling me that the state apparatus is incapable of putting up someone who they say is left and right who both come to the same conclusion.
And that can't be political in nature.
Because look, there's left and right.
And you're like, look, I mean, come the fuck on.
You're telling me that the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, if they both agree we have to go to war in Iraq, well, then obviously, I mean, look, there's a left and a right who both say the same thing.
Epidemiology Models vs Reality00:04:24
So this isn't like, there's, there's no corruption here.
I just could like, I was listening to him say this and I was like, I actually can't believe that he's making this argument.
After I had said that the U.S. government spent $9 billion to develop and distribute these COVID vaccines, that really, you know, I guess at that point, at that point, we're just each going to say what we're going to say and there's not going to be any exchange, any good faith exchange about the content of the debate.
Yeah.
Because there it is.
Yeah.
One of the most powerful points of the debate for you, I thought, was when you actually started reading from the contract that people have to sign before they get the shot.
Yeah.
And those are widely available and certain parts of them are redacted.
And you should probably go to DuckDuckGo to look those up, not Google.
But I was able to find them.
Anybody can find them.
It was really disturbing.
And it was this stuff about just kind of like if you remember offhand, like what you were reading.
Let's see here.
I'm trying to recall it.
So, I mean, it was about kind of like, look, if you have adverse effects or anything like this, just know you don't have the right to sue.
You give up your rights.
Oh, yeah.
You can't sue.
You can't return the.
So if the government decides that the vaccinations aren't effective, or if they have too many risks associated with them, they can't return them.
So They're stuck with them.
So, the government is stuck with these contracts.
They're like almost irreversible.
And then, if you experience side effects yourself, you cannot sue because there was a court ruling.
There have actually been a couple.
There was one called Bruce Woods v. Wyth where that stated that vaccinations are basically an unavoidable risk, and we must use them at all costs.
And we cannot subject these pharmaceutical companies to liability.
And it was reaffirmed in a Supreme Court decision back in 2010 and 2014.
And I believe Justice Sotomayor, of all people, actually wrote a dissenting opinion and didn't like it.
So, yeah, there's a lot of information about that out there.
It's obviously not circulating right now in the media, but it's there if you take a look.
Yeah, you know, Sodomayor, for all the shit she gets, and she deserves it.
She's had a few dissenting opinions that were pretty goddamn badass.
Like, she is every now and then on issues of like the national security apparatus.
Like, she's like been really actually very good.
And so, it's interesting because that's one of the things that right-wingers will try to in a last-ditch effort.
Like, we have to support Republicans because the Supreme Court.
And then you'll be like, Well, there are actually some issues where the lefties on the Supreme Court are far better.
Yeah.
The constitutionalists who go right along with the whole national security apparatus.
Oh, so gross.
Yeah.
So gross.
Oh, you know, the other thing that he didn't touch on that he did not touch that angered me was talking about alternative treatments.
That really, yeah, he just skipped right over that.
It was just trust the science.
Well, and he actually at one point made a blatant appeal to authority, like one of the most blatant logical fallacies imaginable when he just said, Where you were making your arguments, and he just said, Well, you're not an epidemiologist.
This is so insane.
And by the way, most epidemiologists are not people who have practiced medicine, they work with theoretical models on a computer and they have no real world experience.
And I think that's a very important thing to point out.
Not all of them, but a lot of them.
Dr. Fauci, for example.
These are not people who are treating actual illnesses.
They're just tinkering on their laptops.
Yeah.
And like producing these models that they don't like.
It doesn't matter how wrong they are.
They get to just keep going on with these models.
Like, well, you know, by the way, I mean, okay, I don't even mean to get back into this because this is a separate issue.
And I'll talk to Spike Cohen about this next week, who I like very much, by the way.
And I'm interested to talk to him.
But, you know, it's like, I'll see this all the time with Cato.
You know, will it be like, well, do you just know that if everyone had open borders, the world GDP would double?
Theoretical Doctors Without Experience00:03:16
And you're like, well, what?
What?
I mean, this is just the same thing as like some model that tells me what, you know, how many people are going to get COVID and blah, blah, blah.
This is just like predictions on the future.
Like, you're telling me you have some model that if we just allow anyone to move wherever they want to, you can account for every economic interaction and every, and not only that, but every cultural response, the cultural backlash, the right-wing reactionaries, the left-wing reactionaries, what the government ends up doing.
Like you can account for all of that.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
You have no idea whether this is true or not.
But this stuff is, it's like so pervasive amongst like in the field of epidemiology, where it's like, yes, people who are completely removed and just like project these kind of models of what's going to happen, they're wrong constantly, which understandably, you know, it's not easy to predict the future.
No one's great at that.
But the idea of if someone's making an argument to just say, well, you're not an epidemiologist, you know, you don't have this title, so you're not allowed to make that argument.
So like if I'm, if, if I were to say, um, Uh, I think, you know, raising the minimum wage will create less employment than there would otherwise be.
And then Robert Reich tells me I'm wrong.
Would you're would would some Cato guy be like, well, Dave, you're not an economist.
So he's got to be right about that.
I mean, this is like the most like, I don't know, just like sophomoric fucking fallacy to throw at somebody.
It's the Cato crystal ball.
Right, right.
That's really, they can see the future, you know?
Yeah.
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Well, all right.
So anyway, I guess that, you know, we could wrap up on there.
And I really encourage people to go, you know, watch the debate.
We can move on to other topics.
But is there anything else about the debate that you wanted to mention before we talk some more LP shit?
You know, I would say that when Ilya tried to dunk on VARES and called it a database, a junk database, that's grossly incorrect.
It's the reason that VARES is inaccurate is because it's grossly underreported and it should, it doesn't reflect the significant number of vaccine injuries that actually occur because doctors are disincentivized to report incidents to VARES and people don't know how.
And there are certain timeframes that you have to report that by.
And if you miss it, it doesn't count.
So from what I understand from VARES is that they'll say the knock on it is they'll say that like, well, anybody can report on VARES, you know, but from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that that is true within the timeframe.
But the majority, the vast majority of the reports are coming from doctors.
So even though they say that, well, you can go report on there, even if you're not a doctor, it's like, okay, yes, you can if you make it within the timeframe.
But the vast majority of the reports are coming from doctors.
So I correct.
So I will grant that it's not perfect, but it's not something that should just be dismissed either.
These are doctors, for the most part, doctors reporting incidents.
And the way that works is that most people, when they do have a reaction, and there have been a lot of people who had reactions to other shots, MMR is one that people complain about a whole lot.
And HPV, what you're instructed to do is you go to your doctor and you report it to your doctor.
That is the unofficial protocol.
And that's, of course, what people do because that's all they know to do.
No one has a maybe a handful of people, but for the most part, people don't have a reaction to a vaccine and go, oh, VARES, that system I should know about because I'm highly suspicious of that thing I just got jabbed with.
That's not reflective of reality.
Yeah, no, I mean, probably more people now, just because vaccines are more of a topic than ever before, know about it.
But yeah, I'm sure, like, who the hell knows about VARES?
I'm sure the vast majority of people don't.
Five years ago, like almost no one when I first started really digging into this stuff, like about six years ago, and I first learned about it.
No one that I would talk to about it.
They were like, what are you talking about?
Yeah, I guess one other thing I'll say on the debate is that another thing that really bothered me is that he kind of played into it without maybe like blatantly saying it, or maybe he did.
If I'm thinking back, I just watched it for the first time today.
But that, and I've gotten this kind of pushback a lot from idiots when I'm talking about like vaccine passports and stuff.
And they'll go like, well, look, vaccine mandates are nothing new, you know, and they'll say, well, you know, I mean, if you travel to, you know, Zimbabwe or whatever, you need to have a vaccine.
Or if you, you know, public schools require these vaccines or there's, you know, all these things.
But you're like, are you really going to tell me there's nothing new between that and you can't go to a restaurant?
Right.
You know, like, are you really going to tell me there's nothing new between that?
And we're checking your papers at every stop that you can't like that that really is, you don't see a like drastic difference between those two things.
And I do think that this is an area where some libertarians, not particularly in our camp of libertarians, but other libertarians are like so goofy.
You know, like they'll take these things where it's like, can you not, are you incapable of understanding magnitude and scale of something?
So like, do you like, I understand the principle, pure argument, like, okay, a 1% tax and an 80% tax are both the same principle that the government has a right to take money from you.
I get that.
But at the same time, can we not understand that an 80% tax is way worse than a 1% tax?
One is more, way more alarming than the other.
And to be like, well, look, you know, if you, if there's a border at Mexico and you get and you're not allowed to go into Mexico, well, that's a violation of your freedom of movement or something.
Oh, okay.
I can understand the argument.
But if there's a border outside your home and you're not allowed to leave your home, like house arrest is a lot different than not being able to travel internationally.
Like, are we not real people who can understand this difference?
Absolutely.
And yeah, man, there's so many things that I want to say about it.
You can, there are exemptions available in most places for medical and religious, you know, medical and religious exemptions at schools and when you travel sometimes.
And not every country has a vaccine mandate.
That's not, that's not correct.
Right.
And in France, for example, not everybody is vaccinated so aggressively against measles.
So it's again, you know, it's interesting.
These people have this, these, these Cato policy walks have this very global emphasis on everything they do, but they're, the way they think is actually very USA centric and it's just very confined to like their own little think tank.
They don't actually look at policies and how they're implemented across the world.
Well, I remember when, so when my daughter was, shoot, this must be, she must have been like, I think she was a baby.
She's like four or five months old.
She's three now.
So this was two and a half years ago in the before time, before the COVID regime.
So I guess in 2019, like early 2019, mid-2019, there was a pretty bad measles outbreak in New York City, where we were at the time.
And our pediatrician told us about that.
And she was just like, you know, hey, kind of be careful because there's been like measles going around.
So be careful, you know, where you take her and this and that.
And it was, you know, whatever.
That was it.
But I, and I was concerned about that.
You know, I remember being like, oh, shit, I really do not want my baby girl to get the measles.
But I would have never like in a million years, be like, oh, people shouldn't be allowed in like a store if they don't have the measles vaccine.
It's like, no, like that's on us to just be a little bit careful that we don't like let her, you know, just fucking, I don't know, like be careful about who she interacts with and who she plays with and whether they have symptoms or anything like that.
And it's just, it's so like, it's such a drastically different approach to say, oh, no, now the onus is on everyone else to prove that they're vaccinated.
Like just to pretend that this is the same old thing to me is so goofy and so like removed from reality.
It's like, no, that is not, that is not how we've always done this.
That is, this is a very different thing.
Don't pretend like it is.
No one's ever been.
Yes, there's been a lot of vaccines and a lot of people have been, you know, a lot of establishment people have said like, yeah, you got to get vaccinated.
And this has become the norm in modern medicine that there are vaccinated, that there are vaccinations and that children get vaccinations.
But there's never been a situation where you have to demonstrate that you are vaccinated before you're allowed to into basic functions of society.
That is a very different, like, this is a whole different level.
So let's not pretend that's not real.
And yeah, I mean, I don't know, whatever.
I just, I don't even know how else to respond to people who pretend that this is all like the same old thing.
It's the same old thing we've always been doing.
Right.
It's not, it's nothing like it.
Yeah.
And it's also not coming off of lockdowns and like all of this other shit.
No.
And other countries, sorry, Ilya, other countries are starting to lock down again.
Well, they already have all these aggressive vaccine mandates and things similar to a mandated place.
So sorry, I guess we're, it's not leading us to a freer society.
You have to stop complying.
Yeah.
No, that's, that's for damn sure.
Yeah.
And it's just, it's such a weird thing for any libertarian in this moment.
Like, why would you just want to in this moment be standing up and saying like, well, in some cases, mandates are okay.
Like, please like me.
Please like me.
Please.
Please.
I'm just like you.
We're not the same.
Yeah.
Well, in that case, it's just like, please step.
Like, I'll say, please step out of the way.
Please just step out of the way.
So the rest of us who actually oppose this can just kind of like get to work and just, I don't even care, just like shed libertarian from your name.
Yes.
You're not, you're not with us.
So okay, fine.
You don't have to be, but like, just like shed this from your name.
I have nothing against people who don't even want to fight the fight.
I get it.
Maybe you just want to live your life, but don't like, don't come here and start like arguing and trashing the rest of us who do want to fight this fight.
Like, just beat it.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
All right.
Let me see.
Is there anything else before we move on to Libertarian Party stuff?
Is there anything else that I wanted to mention about this or that you wanted to mention about this debate?
Because I feel like there are a couple others.
So the last thing I'd say is: Ilya said during the debate, we're not likely to have a libertarian government anytime soon.
I would say, well, we're probably not likely to have a libertarian government anytime soon if the people advocating for libertarianism at think tanks are saying we need vaccine mandates and that kind of tyrannical nonsense.
So, so that really bothered me.
Yeah, yeah.
And also just like, what a cop-out that is.
Like, okay, yeah, we're not.
Okay.
So that's again, it's just these things that's like, well, that would, that could be a justification for any tyrannical policy.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, okay, well, it's not perfect, but we were not likely to have a libertarian government soon.
And therefore, we can support this.
Whatever.
Prohibition, genocide, going to war.
You could say anything based on that statement.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just anyway, it was, it was, it was kind of mind-blowing to see the arguments that he tried to make, but you did a great job.
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All right, let's get back into it.
So, okay, let's transition to Libertarian Party stuff.
So, the Libertarian Party just turned 50 years old.
I just did a podcast on that birthday recently and kind of gave my thoughts on where I think the Libertarian Party is and what I think the goal should be and all of this.
You are running, of course, for chair of the LNC.
I guess I'll just start with like a broad question.
What do you think about like where the Libertarian Party is right now?
And how do you feel about it?
I think we're on the cusp of something incredible.
And I don't know if a political organization has been taken over or reformed to this degree in this short amount of time ever in history.
Maybe it has.
I can't think of anything in the United States, you know, the violent revolution accepted, like just like a peace, a peaceful transition of power.
I think that's pretty phenomenal.
So I'm pretty stoked about it.
Yeah, I agree with you.
I think it's really, it's really unbelievable what's been accomplished in just like a few years.
If you think like 2016 was not that long ago, and in 2016, the Libertarian Party ran Gary Johnson and Bill.
And then, listen, by 2020, four years later, and really I think that like the revolution within the Libertarian Party didn't really start till 2017 was the very beginning, but really 2018, 2019 was when it really started to hit.
And by 2020, when they tried to bring in Lincoln Chafee and guys like this, it was like there was no chance.
Like there was just no chance.
Bill Weld was floated out as a while for a while as the 2020 candidate.
They knew there was no chance he could change.
It was just like this party is not supporting that anymore.
Like the libertarians have entered the chat and they are not taking this shit anymore.
And where we're at now is really, it's pretty remarkable to see that it's kind of like you've seen the liber, the liberty movement assert its will on the Libertarian Party and be like, no, listen, this party is going to represent what we believe in.
It is not going to represent the Cato adjunct scholar who goes, well, I suppose vaccine mandates are okay in some cases.
Rage Quitting the Libertarian Party00:13:55
It's going to represent the Angela McCartlins who will say, like, no, like, fuck that.
What we stand for is liberty, no compromises.
Absolutely.
I'm really optimistic.
So I had a call with another person in the party earlier today, and I was explaining that a lot of people are worried with the Mises caucus takeover that it's going to be, oh, a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing at the helm.
Oh, no.
That's actually what's happening right now.
There's all of this talk about professionalism and, oh, we have to be this way and that way.
And we can't let these people take it over.
They don't know what they're doing.
When you peer behind the curtain and you see what's really going on, there are very few people on the board with professional board experience who have chaired large organizations, who have, who are experts in political strategy, who have worked on like serious endeavors.
And I don't mean that to offend any of them, because that's how most of the organization is.
And that's part of what's held us back for so long.
You know, that coupled with like the failure to understand low time preference Preference versus high time preference.
What I intend to do with the rest of the Mises caucus is to bring on people who are actually skilled and can govern an organization and move us in the right direction while being radically principled and outspoken messengers for liberty.
So, for anybody listening who's like, oh, I don't know, I'm so nervous.
Like, you can calm down.
Don't you worry.
We're going to do much better than the organization has been doing.
Yeah, well, it's unbelievable to see.
I mean, and I've seen this for quite a while, where, you know, since, and this never happened really before I got involved in the Libertarian Party, but since I have been, you go, there are these people in the Libertarian Party and like the opposition of the Mises caucus and of your candidacy and all this stuff who will be like, you know, you guys, like, let me tell you something about how you need to approach people with this,
or let me tell you something about how you actually get more people involved.
And you're like, dude, what experience do you forget even like, like, because I don't have any experience like running like a committee, but what experience do you have with how to get people interested in these ideas or how to get them on board?
But you'll so confidently just pretend like you're the professional and you know how to do this.
I mean, I was commenting, I did a live stream earlier today, just giving my thoughts on the debate I had the other night with Nick Fuentes.
And it's really funny that all of these, the people who I've debated in the past, you know, like are all commenting about what I did wrong in the debate with Nick Fuentes.
And you're like, you guys, do you think you guys could go in there and debate this kid?
He would annihilate you.
So maybe you're not in the position to tell other people how they're supposed to run this thing, what the professional way to do is.
And the beautiful thing is that, like, look, we said the Mises caucus said, we told everyone what we were going to do and we told them what we were here for.
And everything we've said so far has come true.
And more of it is just happening over the next few months.
And I really do think, look, there are like the deranged maniacs who, you know, call everybody Nazis and flail out.
And like, they're going to be gone very soon when this thing is a wrap and be gone.
But to everybody else who's just kind of like in the middle in the party and may have had their, you know, reservations about all of this, they're going to see that it's like, this was never what the caricature was.
Like we're the reinforcements.
Like we are here to make this thing a force and you're going to love it.
You're, you now get to be a part of something fucking awesome.
So get ready for that because it's really going to be so great.
I hope people get excited.
When Angela, people listening, when Angela is the chair of the LNC, this is just going to be so great.
I can't even explain it.
It's like, this is like, we're going to have the message that you would want to have.
Everyone who listens to this show, the message you would want to have being blared out of the third largest party in America.
And I know it's third by a long shot, but still, you're not getting that out of the Democrats or Republicans, but you're going to get it out of the Libertarian Party.
So get ready for that because it's going to be fucking epic.
Thank you.
It is going to be incredible.
And yeah, so we're going to be able to actually, you know, interact with the culture in a meaningful way.
And I think that that is really going to drive our political activism because politics is downstream of culture.
Sometimes it's a feedback loop and you have to have the wisdom and judgment to understand when that's happening.
You know, like LA and New York City with the vaccine mandates.
So I'm pushing this initiative to overturn them.
And anybody who wants to follow up on that for LA, you can go to medicalfreedomla.com.
But what's happened in this thing is, you know, I've been able to build issue coalitions with people who are not libertarians, turn them on to libertarianism.
I've got them reading about Ron Paul nullification while I'm doing like political strategy and training.
And I'm growing the party in a meaningful way where we're interacting with the culture.
And even if we don't overturn the mandates, since I filed that paperwork with Citi, there's over 4 million people in the city of Los Angeles.
Since the little LA County Libertarian Party filed that paperwork, they have already carved out several exemptions for us because they're afraid of what we're doing.
So that is the way to achieve it.
You know, like you might be small, but you can still do work if you just work effectively.
Yeah, that's right.
And I think you also get, I think what ends up happening, and this is kind of to me in a weird way, it's like this kind of meta thing where like, even though we all hate politics and we wish politics didn't even exist, you know, but we're getting involved in kind of this political thing.
It's like you get people on board with the fight.
Yeah.
And even when they're not, even when you don't win the fight, there's something about that that people like, it's like you change people.
Like they're like, yes, I wanted to be a part of this and I believed in what you were doing.
And there's something rewarding about fighting for what you really believe in that's true and just and right.
And like that, that in itself can have great purpose.
That in itself can bring people on board.
And that's again, this is the Ron Paul message.
Like, okay, he didn't win.
And yeah, a lot of people spent time, you know, knocking on doors and volunteering and making videos and making signs for him.
But a lot of those people were like, you know what?
That dude inspired me.
Like that dude inspired me to stand up and tell the truth.
And we can do this on a massive scale right now.
We have the potential to do this on a scale that it's never been done before.
And so that's like kind of what excites me.
And like you said, even these exemptions.
That was one thing I wanted to mention before that when I was at, I remember at, so I was at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital.
It was like one of the best hospitals in the country.
Because of course, my son had some serious health issues.
He's doing great, by the way.
But I was talking to one of the nurses there and they had an exemption, their vaccine policy, and an exemption for pregnant women.
Pregnant women didn't have to have the vaccine.
But then at the same time, I was like, oh, yeah, okay, that's cool.
And then like the nurse walked away and like three beats later, it hit me.
I go, but the statewide exemption, the statewide mandate doesn't have an exemption for pregnant women.
So isn't that so crazy that the hospital, the hospital, you'd think all the real smart people who really know, I mean, this is like a fucking incredible, like the best hospital of these like incredible Ivy League fucking, you know, great doctors.
They're like, hey, yeah, if you're pregnant, you don't have to get this shit because that could be a problem.
But like, anyway, so any more little exemptions you get, it's like, you know what?
Well, that's better than not having them.
And one more person you pull along with you, that's better than not having them.
And that's what this is.
It's a battle of inches.
It's, you know, it's a battle of like, you know, a lot of times libertarians, particularly and caps, like get accused of like making the good the enemy of the perfect.
It's like, no, no, no, you shoot, you shoot for the perfect, but anything good is better than not as good.
And that's what we're always moving toward.
Keep clawing your way there.
And this is why the left has owned us so badly because they understand this.
They screamed healthcare for all, scream, scream, screamed it.
And what they get, they get Obamacare.
And they're like, no, but they accept it and then they keep screaming, you know, and they do this with everything, minimum wage, mandates.
They just keep pushing.
So we've got to keep, we've got to start pushing the same way.
Just take it back inch by inch, like a grain of sand at a time if it has to be.
Yeah, no, that's right.
Cause that's better than not a grain of sand.
And two grains are better than one.
You know, it's like everything.
You kind of keep taking it and keep taking it as much as you can.
And I will say I'm very excited for this.
And I think that there's going to be a big realignment in the Libertarian Party after the next few months and particularly after Reno, where people go, okay, so this happened.
This movement came into the party.
And things have been shaken up and all of the predictions of like, what's going to happen oh, it's going to be nothing but like posting and purges and all this.
None of that's going to happen.
That's not what this is going to be about.
This is going to be about making the Libertarian Party something that the liberty movement can be proud of, and i'm i'm already proud to be a part of this.
Yeah, and we're we're delighted to have you.
We really appreciate you.
I think I think that there are going to be a lot of people who rage, quit after i'm elected chair, and and that's okay and I think that some of them are going to take a little time out and be mad and have to process their emotions and come back within a year after they see our phenomenal success.
They're going to begrudgingly tuck their tails and come back, and i'm not going to give them grief.
I'm going to let, i'm going to welcome most of them back and because we need people, we need to convince people, can I tell you i'll i'm treat it.
I don't need to be condescending, but this will be condescending, but I i'm going to treat it exactly like I treat my three-year-old daughter when um, she's like misbehaving or very upset about something, which is like a thing that I do because I believe in peaceful parenting.
So I don't like I don't yell at my kids or hit my kids or anything like that.
I think that's crazy and wrong.
Um, but I will do a thing where, like if if my daughter's doing stuff she's not allowed to do, like even just today uh, I had a thing with her today because she started throwing things and she's throwing things that she's not allowed to throw, and I had the baby in my arms and it's like you can't throw.
I mean, she wasn't like close to hitting the baby, but it's still too close, and I told her she can't.
And I do this thing where I take her and me and her go sit as she's upset and I and the.
The rule is basically that as soon as you, it's like, hey listen, Layla's upset right now, but as soon as you calm down, we're going right back to playing.
Yeah, as soon as you calm down, it's this, doesn't?
There's no like, it's not, like there's any like resentment or i'm going to remember this or anything like that.
It's like hey listen, we can't play right now because you're upset, but as soon as you calm down, we'll go right back to playing.
And then I kind of talk to her and i'm like okay, do you want to calm down?
And like she'll be like sometimes she'll be like no not, not ready.
I'm like we'll kind of sit for another minute and then she goes, okay daddy, feel all better.
And then you go okay, all right, let's go back to playing.
No resentment, it's like this never happened, that's fine, i'll reward you for coming back.
So any of you guys, if you want to leave or rage, quit or anything like that, if you want to come back later, I don't even need like an apology or anything like that.
It's like okay, we just move right on and we get right back to where we were doing, because the purpose we're here for is a lot greater than any of this libertarian infighting nonsense.
But anyway, it is going to be beautiful to watch this all come together and I I think we're going to very soon And so I hope people listening, if you're not involved already, come get involved because this is this is the time.
This is the coolest time to come be a part of this shit and support Angela for chair because this is going to be a lot of fun.
Sign up because state conventions are going to be wild this year and Reno is going to be wild.
And it's sure, there's going to be fighting and conflict, but really there's going to be a huge celebration and party.
And we're come be a part of history.
We're literally making history right now.
Yeah.
Yeah, we sure are.
All right, Angela.
Well, listen, it was a pleasure to have you on.
And I'd love to do this again sometime soon.
Is there a place where people can support you, find your stuff?
What can they do?
Call to action, anything you got?
Yeah, absolutely.
So if you want to help support me and the work I do, the strategic planning, the initiative, the chair race, you can support me at patreon.com forward slash Angela McArdle.
I've got a sub stack too, and you can find me on Twitter at Angela4LNC chair.
Hell yeah.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for kicking ass at that debate the other day.
Thank you for taking on this whole task of running for chair.
Cause honestly, like I'm just, I'm from the bottom of my heart, I'm so glad it's you.
I just think you're the one to do this job.
And I'm so glad that like there's someone running for chair who I don't have to be like, all right, this is our person, but like, I really hope they're good on this or they're good on that.
And you're someone who I have like complete confidence in.
So you, you have my absolute full support and I thank you for everything you're doing.