Shane Hazel, a former Marine and 2020 libertarian Senate candidate, critiques the "woke" wing of his party and advocates abandoning respectability politics for a "shoot and move" strategy targeting local executive offices. He argues that anti-war veterans possess a superior moral compass regarding state violence, noting how active-duty troops favored Ron Paul despite their combat roles. Hazel details his 2015 departure from the Libertarian Party due to leadership failures and his attempt to infiltrate the GOP via asymmetric warfare. The discussion estimates two to three million liberty-minded Americans could grow to twenty million, creating market demand for freedom amidst a collapsing economic Ponzi scheme fueled by 2020 money creation. Ultimately, Hazel urges risking mockery to dismantle the "murder cult apparatus" of the state, asserting that principled consistency is essential even as narratives around lockdowns and pandemics crumble. [Automatically generated summary]
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Rolling Back The State00:14:25
Fill her up.
You are listening to the Gash Digital Network.
We need to roll back the state.
We spy on all of our own citizens.
Our prisons are flooded with nonviolent drug offenders.
If you want to know who America's next enemy is, look at who we're funding right now.
Every single one of these problems are a result of government being way too big.
You're listening to part of the problem on the Gash Digital Network.
Here's your host, James Smith.
What's up, everybody?
Welcome to a brand new episode of Heart of the Problem.
Thank you for tuning in.
I am very happy to have our guest on today, Shane Hazel, who it's been long overdue.
A lot of people have requested this episode.
I just did his show, Radical, the other day and really enjoyed it.
If you're not familiar with Shane, he was the libertarian candidate for Senate in Georgia in 2020.
He is a Marine combat vet, a father and a husband, much like myself.
And yeah, one of the best libertarians out there.
How you doing, brother?
Oh, man.
I am tickled to death to be with you, Dave.
Really appreciate it, man.
And I mean, geez, high praise.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
Well, yeah, absolutely.
I mean it.
And I'm very happy that you're on.
So for people who don't know, and I don't know that much about your kind of libertarian origin story, I know you were in the Marines and you were a combat vet.
Were you a libertarian then, or did you become a libertarian from that experience?
How did it all happen?
Yeah, man.
I found some John Taylor Gatto on my rack.
We were in the Battle of Fallujah.
I was with First Force Reconnaissance Company at the time, kicking indoors, and it was the second battle.
It was awful, man.
And so we had just come off the front lines after about a month of kicking indoors.
And one of my buddies passed me this book, Weapons of Mass Instruction.
And I mean, for you guys out there, I'm sure a lot of you guys know who John Taylor Gatto is, 30-year veteran of the New York school system, teacher of the year.
And he railed against the school system.
I read that book, man, and the part specifically about the history of the American education system, how they were just turning out bots, basically, that could turn cogs, that were smart enough to read and do math and all that kind of stuff, but would rush off to defend the honor of the homeland.
And man, I'll tell you what, to read that after doing what I was doing, boy, you want to talk about that moment where you just kind of sit up and go, fuck, they got me, man.
Like that was a rough moment for me.
And like, I went over to the guy that, you know, had that conversation with me.
We had a discussion.
He goes, yeah, this book's been making its way around in this platoon for a while now.
And I'll tell you what, I don't want to say the defection rate, but after that, man, things were different.
Like things started to change and a whole lot of those guys got out and moved on.
And I just kind of, you know, you plant that seed and you just see how far the rabbit hole goes.
I'm still learning.
I mean, you know, I became a constitutionalist and really kind of an expert in the Constitution.
And then I found the anti-federalists and those guys were right.
And then you get into places like Rothbard and Mises and the rest of that kind of stuff.
And man, I'll tell you what it is.
They're looking at the anti-federalists like, you're a bunch of commies.
Let me tell you something.
Yeah, it was a coup, for God's sakes.
They don't teach you that in school.
You can't teach those people about their rights and what they were saying before the Constitution.
I mean, all the sacrilege of the murder cult at that point.
It's just, it's unreal.
Yeah, I can only imagine what that would be like to be in the middle of this kind of battle and then starting to have this awakening.
But thank God.
Thank God you did.
And thank God so many other people have.
I remember that, and I bring this up a lot, but I think it's that important to keep saying it.
But I remember in 2008 when I was introduced to all this stuff by the great Ron Paul, and when I found out that he had received more donations from active duty military than every other candidate combined.
And I was like, whoa, how is that not like the biggest story of the year that the most anti-war guy is the guy who the military members support.
Like, this is, this is like by any metric, this is huge news.
I mean, this would be enough to make any normal person be like, well, we have to stop the wars then.
I mean, the people who are fighting the wars are completely against them.
And that's such a weird dynamic.
Like, I couldn't imagine that in any other, in the middle of any other war in our history, that you're like, oh, no, the troops are the anti-war movement, which is such a crazy thing.
It is a crazy thing.
You know, when you see all that terrible, you know, shit unfold before your eyes, you know, it kind of wakes you up to the idea of like, what are we doing here?
I, you know, there was one moment in particular, and this was before I found the John Taylor Gatto book.
We were in Najaf in that battle in August, and we had this place called the Imam Ali Shrine surrounded, and we were about to lay waste to it.
I mean, completely wipe it off the map.
And the generals came back to us and said, hey, we're done with hostilities here.
We're done with this battle.
It's over.
And everybody's kind of like looking around and saying, all right, well, why?
What happened?
And we had this guy, Muqtada El-Sadr at the time, who was a Shiite cleric and really close with the Grand Ayatollah Sistani at the time.
And they brokered a peace deal.
And we were all sitting around going like, what the fuck, man?
We had to watch these guys that killed Marines walk out under white flags.
And that was it.
And we're just like, this is bullshit.
And so you start scratching your head and you're like, all right, man, we're not here to win a war.
Like, we're here doing something very different, very political.
And, you know, obviously a couple months later, once those ideas were introduced to me, I was like, oh, shit.
You know, like, like it all starts to really come unraveled fast.
Where you go from there as a, you know, as a veteran or whatever, man, that's, that's kind of the tough part, right?
It's like, all right, if you, if you are going to continue down that line and close your eyes, well, you're just going to be willfully ignorant.
But after, you know, if you're that person that says enough's enough, well, man, go find out as much as you can.
And that's kind of where I ended up.
The veteran movement, you know, it needs more and more of this kind of voice.
You know, I think the problem is, is those are some really, really tough pills that people swallow.
And it's like, it's much like anybody who works for the state, right, Dave?
I mean, when you look at, you know, the teachers, you know, most of the people who are rank and file teachers, police officers, military, they've never even heard of the ideas that we talk about in terms of ending the Fed and ending the wars and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, no, most people working in the public school system have no idea that it's the Prussian model that was adopted by Harris Mann.
And, you know, they, they just, Horace Mann, rather, they just don't, you know, they don't know about this stuff.
And it's, I'd imagine it must be really tough for them to accept that, which is why the active duty troops supporting Ron Paul was so interesting.
I've made this comment, not an analogy, just a thing that happened, but said I was watching this documentary with my wife.
It was this documentary about the history of abortion laws in the country, coming from a very pro-choice perspective.
The documentary was, not me.
And there was this one woman, this abortionist, who's like been an abortion doctor for like 30 something years.
And she was like, look, there is no moral issue with abortion, like just a Compass Halls, blah, blah, blah, all this.
And you're sitting there watching it.
It's like, yeah, well, you better feel that way because if you consider the alternative, you know, then the alternative is that you are a decades-long baby murderer.
Like, that's that's you're pretty incentivized to not believe in that.
So, when you see these, these troops actually going, Yeah, you know what?
I'm accepting the implications that come with me saying, oh, these wars are all immoral and illegitimate.
And that the implications are pretty nasty.
That it's like, oh, yeah, you were doing some bad things for some bad dudes that really didn't need to happen.
And so, I really admire anybody who can swallow that bitterest of pills.
I was on the back porch with my cousin Greg.
I won't say his last name, but he was a libertarian way back in the 90s, right?
And so, you know, he and I were cooking out and it's the first time I've seen him in a while at Christmas.
And, you know, he's like, hey, man, you know, like, let's talk about some of these things.
And we, you know, we always like doing this kind of stuff.
And he said, well, how do you feel about your service then?
And I kind of had that moment, man.
That I was like, that was the, I will never forget it, just sitting there with him and having to say, yeah, man, I guess I was serving this cabal, this murder cult, and I've done some really, really terrible shit for him.
And I think that's where I got to the point where I was like, you better get smart because you're going to spend the rest of your damn life trying to at least tell people not to go down that road that you went down or telling people, you know, what the truth of the situation is.
Because I'm telling you what, man, if I hadn't done those things, if I hadn't been that, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing in Liberty.
I wouldn't be running for office.
I wouldn't be doing any of this kind of stuff.
I'd be chilling with my family, hanging out here homesteading.
But yeah, that was a nasty pill, man.
It's a tough thing to swallow, but you got to do it at the end of the day.
Yeah, yeah, no.
Well, one thing that just pops into my mind, I just can't help myself on this topic, but there is because there's been a lot of screeching online from the loser brigade wing of the LP, as we know.
But you know, the one thing that's so interesting, and sometimes the Mises caucus and the more radicals will kind of be like, well, we're the really anti-war people.
And then sometimes those guys will be like, no, no, no, we're all anti-war.
We're anti-war too.
We're against it.
But the interesting thing to me is that, you know, when you talk about the guys who were libertarians in the 90s and stuff like that, you know, it really was the Ron Paul Mises Institute wing of the libertarian movement who were good on this stuff the whole time.
This was not true for the Reason magazine crowd and a lot of the Beltway types were bad on the Iraq war.
But that never becomes like such a big scandal.
The big scandal is that, oh my God, Murray Rothbard was willing to talk to Pat Buchanan in the 90s.
Like that's, that's somehow unforgivable.
But, you know, if maybe you just supported like the sanctions regime that led to the war in Iraq, yeah, well, I mean, you didn't really support the war in Iraq.
Sure, a few hundred thousand kids probably died because of it, but like whatever, you weren't a racist or anything like that.
And like that's, you know, racist, not even that any of them actually are, but just labeled racist.
It's just like, man, it really does.
You see in this game that some people have different values, different priorities.
And one of the things that I really like about anti-war combat vets is that they, they always have their priorities straight.
And I think that's from, you know, actually seeing some real shit.
You know, you want to talk about how the state is evil.
They know, you know, like the true scope of it.
Oh, yeah.
Well, the thing is, I don't think people can imagine the true scope of it, right?
When I don't know, there's a moment that comes back in my mind where I saw the combined power of air and artillery and ground and armor and just all the, oh, it's, it's, you can't, you can't unsee these kind of things.
And I think talking about them with, you know, my guests or your guests or whoever we can have that have been there to see these, to relay these things, this is hard for a lot of guys.
And I don't recommend it.
You know, the first time you tell your stories that you do it, you know, in this type of situation, right?
Go out there and talk to people who are closer to you that will understand if you break down, you have those moments, man.
Like, don't, don't do that kind of thing.
But to your point about the, you know, the loser brigade and I mean, some of the bullshit that happened yesterday, I find it very, very interesting when this woke ass crowd in the Libertarian Party, especially in Beltway, is looking at us, telling us basically who we can and cannot talk to, right?
Like that, that is the absolute hallmark of a people who want control and not liberty.
The other way around is like, I don't give a shit who you talk to.
I trust you as a libertarian are going to go in there and probably combat some ideas.
You're going to push back a little bit.
You're going to plant some seeds and you're going to have a conversation where you're reaching outside of your damn echo chamber, which might, you know, you might not change that person's mind, but those people who are in the periphery, man, those people are going to see how you act, how you engage, how you can be, you know, very forthright and most, you know, I think consistent, right?
Like consistent in principle, which I don't think most adults have even considered in their life.
Like, what are your principles?
I don't think most grown adults in America, probably less than 90%, can sit there and list three of them on their hand that they're consistent across the board with.
Yeah.
No, well, that's right.
And, you know, it's funny because the people in the anti-war kind of larger movement, I mean, what did they, what did they slam Tulsi Gabbard with?
That she went and met with Assad.
Now, for anyone who's, who's in the anti-war movement, don't we all know how stupid that criticism is?
It's not like, oh, so you're saying Assad's not a bad guy.
It's like, no, no one's even talking about that.
And Assad's a way worse guy than the guys I've podcasted with.
You know what I mean?
Like Assad has some blood on his hands.
And but now, not the amount of blood that the corporate press would tell you he has, but regardless of that, everyone understands that Tulsi Gabbard went there because like she's trying to not have another Iraq, or actually what could have been much worse than Iraq.
Way worse.
And even what we ended up having was probably half as bad.
But it could have been way worse because Iran was not going to allow that to happen.
Protecting Wealth With Crypto00:02:57
Russia was not going to allow that to happen.
So this could have been a nightmare that she maybe had some part in helping to avoid it being worse.
Who knows?
But maybe some of them.
I mean, there were some close calls there in Syria, man.
I mean, when you look at what happened with the JSOC compounds over there, where they were attacked twice by basically Russian Blackwater and they, you know, they repelled both of those and things didn't escalate from there.
Holy shit, that could have been, I mean, that could have been the start of World War III.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And actually, there was some restraint showed by the Russians to not, you know, retaliate in, you know, thank God.
Of course, that narrative never gets out there.
Restraint by the Russians is like against the, you know, the corporate presses, you know, stopping.
It's not simping, Dave.
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
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Moments Of Levity00:14:42
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All right, let's get back into the show.
The thing to me that I just like, look, I can understand a libertarian who says that who's like hyper sensitive about accusations of racism, right?
I don't, I think it's kind of silly and not a realistic way to live your life, like to be overly concerned about wrong thing from any group of people.
I think the truth is that most people are not quite as perfect as they pretend to be, particularly the woke crowd ends up having some really weird, you know, skeletons rattling around.
But I get that.
What I don't understand is how you could ever prioritize your outrage about that over the outrage of state-sponsored murder campaigns.
That I don't get.
So the fact that like the party actually put Bill Weld on the ballot, and that's not like not there should be more outrage about that than who I've podcasted with, that there isn't a hundred thousand times more outrage about that than who I've podcasted with just is indefensible to me.
Like that's where you have no sense of, like you said, living your values.
It should be a footnote, honestly.
I mean, when you look at, I mean, it's 2021, I think this whole thing is really getting played out with the isms and the iss, the phobia, you know, the phobics.
I mean, I've lived in the South pretty much my entire life.
And then, you know, I've also got to see this great cross-section of America, especially, you know, with guys in general from the Marine Corps.
And, you know, when you see, you know, anybody or wherever racism was or where they experienced, like, I'll tell you what, a lot of people that I've met from the Northeast are like, God, man, I'll tell you what, the people up here in, you know, New York or Connecticut or he's like, those are the most racist people I've seen.
Like you guys from the South, you're not anywhere near what they make you guys out to be.
I was like, dude, I grew up down there in almost farm country, you know, to a certain degree.
And boy, you know, anybody that said something like that, they were, they were ostracized.
They were, you know, loners.
They had maybe one or two of those guys.
And boy, I mean, that kind of stuff was pushed to the side real quick.
I just, I don't see it anymore.
I think it's played out.
And I think also to your point, I think you had a tweet the other, maybe even yesterday, where you were talking about how this very pampered crowd will never do things where, you know, they, they, they don't. understand jokes.
They can't laugh at jokes.
Whereas people who have been in some like very dark places, they've lived through this kind of shit.
They've seen it.
They've seen firsthand what the state does in destroying people and they laugh at it.
They can have these moments of levity.
And a lot of times it's a defense mechanism because our psyches, man, you try to just dial that stuff up all the time, you know, as a, you know, this blinding ivory tower to how awful the world is, man.
That stuff will kill you.
I mean, it'll just, it'll eat your soul.
Yeah, well, it's, it's a coping mechanism for sure.
You know, it's, it's like, it's how you deal with the tragedy of the world around you.
Yeah.
No, what I said was that, you know, I forget exactly what I said, but it was something about that people who have fucked up lives are more likely to laugh at fucked up shit.
And people who don't are less likely to understand that.
Now, I'm saying likelihoods.
There are exceptions to these rules, but I laugh at it because, I mean, it's goddamn truth.
And like, I'll tell you, the people who have lived the fucked up lives, who have the stories that say, don't do what I did, man, like those are great people to have conversations with.
You can, I mean, to learn through others' mistakes.
I mean, isn't that what we should be doing in the first place?
So, so I said in there as a little piece of evidence, I said, go make an offensive joke in a trailer park and then at a university and tell me where who gets offended first.
Like, where are you going to run into someone who's going to lecture you about how this is insensitive or something?
And it ain't the trailer park.
And I got these people who are responding, some of the like people on the woke side who are like, yeah, go, well, go try to make a joke about Jesus in a trailer park.
And you're like, listen, man, you have no idea what you're talking about.
You've never been to a trailer park in your fucking life and you've never tried to do comedy for these people.
And I have talking to an authority on this.
Like, I'm not an authority on everything, but I've traveled the country doing stand-up comedy for, you know, the better part of 15 years.
You are absolutely wrong.
You don't know what a trailer park is.
If you think in there, these are a bunch of pearl clutching, like not our Lord and Savior.
Like, no, they'll laugh their ass off at a Jesus joke.
A lot of them are Christian.
But they'll laugh their ass off at this shit.
You can make the most horrible jokes.
They love it.
This is true in the hood also.
This is black dudes like in the hood, they love the most inappropriate wild jokes.
It's only the pampered, privileged who shout microaggression.
That's exactly right.
Even down here in the buckle of the Bible Belt, I mean, trailer part buckle, right?
You could go in there and there's this one card that I always get from one of my cousins every year.
And it's because it makes me laugh so much.
It's Jesus Christ.
And he's standing in a doorway in a barn and there's a snowstorm outside.
And on the card, it says, Merry Christmas, Jesus fucking Christ, shut the door.
Or you're raised in a barn or born in a barn.
And it's just like, everybody loves that one, man.
I stick it up on the fridge and they love it.
Yeah, it's funny because it's like this projection onto this other culture that you've never experienced or been a part of.
And you're like, yeah, no, I'm just, I'm informing you.
Your guess is wrong.
You're wrong about this.
Like, I know what it is to go into real blue collar redneck areas and tell jokes about Jesus.
And I know what it is to go into colleges and tell jokes about race.
I'm telling you, I've lived this experience, lived experience, right?
Your thing.
And this is the reality of it.
But anyway, it's just, you know, It's interesting to watch that whole dynamic play out.
And again, the thing that I find so, you know, revealing about it is just that it's like, if you do care so much, you're so much, you know, more empathetic than the rest of us, you care about minorities, then, you know, but you're willing to let people who supported the mass murder campaigns against minorities slide.
That seems, or even you'll say you don't let them slide, but you know, if they're on the ballot, you'll campaign for them, you'll vote for them.
If someone else campaigned and voted for them, that's not a reason to be ostracized.
That's just like, hey, you know, we had a difference of opinion and I think you got that wrong.
But this, this, you know, conversation with Nick Fuentes is this is way beyond the pale.
Like, I'm sorry if, you know, if you look at things that way, you don't get to claim any moral high ground in terms of like your empathy for the downtrodden.
Yeah, your jokes and your, I don't know, your air and who you associate with.
No, we can't do this kind of stuff.
This is, they're never going to take us seriously in the beltway.
Well, guess what?
We should stop trying to be like those guys.
You think you want the murder cults, you know, I don't know, blessing?
You're never going to get it.
Like, to think you're ever going to get it is like being the GOP where even when you are in power, you fucking fail, right?
Like, don't try to be like the GOP.
Don't try to be like the DNC.
Don't try to fit into their social circles.
Destroy them.
And the thing is, is that perfect segue in terms of like being sarcastic, being vulgar, telling jokes about whatever race or I like, I don't care about any of that kind of stuff.
I laugh my ass off when I see guys like Chappelle or, you know, Rogan or any of these other guys say these things when it obviously brings a lot of us together.
It makes us laugh.
We find commonality.
We learn how to laugh at ourselves.
And it opens the door to sit there to these people who are in the beltway, you know, with their ivory white towers to sit there and say, hey, man, if you're offended by my language and who we're hanging out with and my jokes, let me show you something over here.
These guys are slaughtering millions of people.
You want to be outraged?
Let's do this.
Yeah, right.
Compare.
This is what I'm outraged by.
That's what you're outraged by.
What's more reasonable?
But, you know, I said this on Malice's show, I think, a couple months ago.
But to me, I go, you know, and I understand not everybody likes the blue pill, red pill analogy and not everyone likes the cathedral term and stuff like that that we throw around a lot.
But I said, what we're talking about with the blue pill, red pill thing, I go, this to me is the perfect blue pill versus red pill take on the situation, right?
And I understand where if you're in the blue pill crowd, this is like to some of the ones who are honest actors, this is a plausible thing that you could, that you could believe is that you go, well, look, if the entire corporate press is going to demonize us if we say X or associate with Y, then we're going to be screwed because they're all going to make us out to be, they're going to call us all Nazis and some people will believe them.
And so we got to not do any of the things that could make us be called racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, all the transphobic, you know, down the list, right?
That's the blue-pilled take.
And I understand where it's plausible on some surface level.
The red-pilled take is, if we are ever a threat to the power source, it is a guarantee that we will be called racist, sexist, xenophobic, all of these things.
Look, Bernie Sanders bent over backward to appease the woke crowd.
He wasn't an old school.
He was like an old school socialist.
He didn't know what the fuck this woke shit was.
He was like, Black Lives Matter?
No, the issue is, he goes, the issue is poverty.
And they're like, what?
That is so racist.
And he goes, I mean, the issue is race.
I don't know what as soon as he was a threat to power.
What did they call his supporters?
Nazis.
That's right, man.
Jewish guy running for president was all supported by a bunch of Nazis.
If libertarians are ever seriously a threat to the power structure, you will be demonized as much as anyone can possibly be demonized.
So I'm not saying be stupid, but just don't care about it.
Say the truth.
You feel free to say whatever you want to say because they're going to demonize us anyway.
And we're not in this for respectability from the establishment.
We hate the establishment.
We don't respect them, you know?
Yeah, I mean, when you say Nazi, you know, when I've got Brennan coming out and going, oh, yeah, these guys are domestic terrorists, right?
Or white supremacists.
They're already doing it because places like the Mises caucus are absolutely gaining tons and tons of traction right now.
And they may not report it, but they see it, man.
And I'll tell you, you know, as a guy who's been in two federal campaigns, as somebody who's talking about liberty, let me tell you, the first thing that they're going to do is try to ignore you as much as possible.
And if they ever do mention you, it's going to be some one-line bullshit type of statement where they either smear you or they attack you or they misrepresent you.
Like that's how it's going to be the entire time.
And you better, you better have something to combat that kind of shit.
Like, I don't know, your own show, your own people, your own, I don't know, network, whatever it is.
Like you've got to be your own voice.
You've got to come out as unfiltered as possible.
Not looking for their approvement.
Do you have respect?
I mean, I don't have any respect for these people.
Not one damn ounce of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amen.
Hey, so back to your story a little bit.
When did you join the Libertarian Party?
I actually joined the Libertarian Party back in 2015.
And then I kind of watched what was unfolding before my eyes for 2016.
I was like, guys, I can't fucking do this.
And then the guy at the helm, you know, I was like, I can't do it.
I like, that was it.
I mean, it was, it was one of those things where I was like, until this gets resolved, right?
And I mean, I went back and forth with some leadership here in Georgia at the time.
And they're like, if you don't like it, get involved.
And I was like, okay, you know, let me try this.
And, you know, the thing is with, you know, being part of a group that, you know, is, you know, special ops and all that fun stuff, you have some tricks in your bag, right?
And I thought, I'll go into the GOP and I'll use all my asymmetric warfare.
I'll use PSYOPS.
I'll use everything and anything that I can to disrupt what's going on at the time.
I mean, you know, as a guy that knew the Constitution inside it out, I could point to everything that my current representative was doing wrong, what his constitutional score was, which was down in the 50s.
And so I'm sitting there, you know, trying to tell the GOP, like, look, man, this guy doesn't give a shit about your rights.
He definitely doesn't give a shit about the Constitution and I can prove it to you.
And I did.
And the GOP at the district level and the county level and even, you know, beneath those guys were all like stabbing you in the back.
They were changing dates in terms of debates, canceling debates, trying to give this guy as much shade as possible from actually having a, you know, a real discussion.
It's kind of where I started thinking about doing a podcast.
And so, man, that's, I saw it from the inside.
I looked at this thing and I said, this thing is a mammoth.
It's a beast.
You know, your conversation with Thoe, like, Tho's a nice guy, Bishop, and, you know, he's, he's a good dude and all that fun stuff.
But, you know, he's, he's talking about going out there.
I got you.
Oh, you're back.
Yeah.
Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah.
It's all good, man.
Having Though talk about, you know, going in and using the GOP machine, well, the GOP is a machine because the people in it are all part of a machine that doesn't want to do shit for liberty, that doesn't care about the Constitution.
They want to be close to the ring of power.
And if you think you're going to take over a precinct, maybe a district, maybe a county, maybe, but in terms of taking the entire thing over, man, they will bring whoever and whatever they can to bear on you to make sure that whatever you're preaching in terms of liberty is canceled out.
And I wish them all the luck in the world in doing so.
But, you know, like, you go liberty your way, man.
I'll go liberty my way.
And as long as we're all doing it, I don't care.
Like, that's the thing is like, so that's after that loss, I was like, you know what?
You know, between Mike Heiss, you know, the man, the myth, the legend over there, and Ryan Graham down here, I'll give him credit for, you know, saying, hey, man, you're a libertarian.
You just don't know it.
And I was like, well, I kind of have a card already.
So the transition won't be that rough.
Strategic Political Moves00:15:27
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Like I said, I agree with you.
I is like, hey, man, if you're going to go into the Republican Party and try to push it in the liberty direction, hey, best of luck to you.
I'm not like against anyone doing that.
And I even think that like, and I've said this before publicly, I do think that the LP should be somewhat strategic about who we challenge, who we primary.
You know, I would think it would be really, really stupid for the Libertarian Party to put funds and energy into someone running against Rand Paul or Thomas Massey, or even I would understand someone like DeSantis in a lockdown year or something like that.
Like if it's, if this is going to clearly get someone worse in there, maybe you have to be strategic with this, you know, but to just play this game of saying, well, we'll go support the Republicans and try to push them one inch closer in this direction.
And then what always comes along with that is what?
You got to bite your tongue a little bit, right?
Like, look, Rand Paul can do what Rand Paul did with Donald Trump and try to push him into, let's end these wars in Afghanistan.
Let's not.
Now, we don't know exactly.
I mean, Trump didn't end any wars.
Perhaps Rand Paul influenced him to not start a new war that maybe he could have started.
Perhaps there was some tangible benefit there, you know, and maybe that's it's better to have him there than not have him there, you know?
However, can Rand Paul say Donald Trump's a war criminal?
No, because if you say that, then you're out, then you don't have his ear anymore.
Can Rand Paul really tell the truth like Ron Paul does about Donald Trump?
No, he can't really do that.
So I'm just saying, at what point do we just go, our ideas have to get out there?
We are going to tell the truth.
We are going to say what exactly is going on here.
And here's what's happening.
Okay.
And here's why Trump was a disaster.
And here's why Biden's a disaster.
And here, like, and if we can never insert our ideas into the conversation, then I think we're kind of giving up already.
We're just playing this game and we get nothing to show for it, you know?
Like, go support the Republicans.
Okay, the Republicans will take power and they'll govern like Democrats and then pass it off to the Democrats who will then govern like socialists.
How many times do I have to live through this pattern?
You know, it's Charlie Brown and Lucy, man, every damn time.
You're like, all right, guys, where's your line in the sand?
I actually just asked a young lady that I've been trying to bring over to the Mises caucus here in Atlanta that today, where's your line in sand?
What is it?
I mean, I agree with you, like sending funding towards campaigns that will do something like unseated massy.
Like, nah, let's not do that kind of stuff, right?
But there are, you know, there are, there's definitely some strategic, I don't know, places where I think we have a ton of interest at local levels that don't cost us a ton, right?
Like I've started this thing called the Helios Initiative that I'm just kind of really getting into.
And it started with the governorship, right?
I've run for two legislative positions between the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate.
And now it's kind of, you know, after time, you just fucking learn because that's how it is, hopefully.
So executive positions, I'll tell everybody, we're a post-constitutional republic right now.
We are, we're not the United States under a constitutional republic.
So when governors can come out through executive fiat and cage everybody in their house and shut down your livelihoods, guess what?
The bets are off.
If you want to be an executive who wants to do some liberty shit now, you can be the executive who does some liberty shit.
I don't care if it's a mayor.
I don't care if it's a council member.
I don't care if it's any of these people, all the way up to the governor of your state.
Go and run for sheriff, run for mayor, run for council, run for commission, run for those things.
We can win those seats and you can affect change right there at your local level to say, you know, like we just did down here in Holly Springs, we're not going to do civil asset forfeiture anymore.
If you're going to stop somebody, there's got to be suspicion of a crime.
Let's decriminalize all of nature in terms of cannabis, psilocybin, and things like that.
Let's, you know, let people try to save their own life with whatever type of medicines they want to try to save with, right?
And so when you can start doing this as executives, where I don't, I know it's a slippery slope, but guess what?
We're sliding down that slippery slope at a accelerated pace right now.
Go do some things like, I mean, go do some executive stuff.
And if your crowd is out there and they know of guys that are running for executive type positions in the United States in 2021, 2022, send them to me.
I'll introduce them to the crowd and I'm going to put together a, you know, basically a packet that says, hey, this is what we're going to end.
This is what we're for.
You're going to sign it.
You're part of the Helios Initiative.
And now we can sit there and point people to anybody in whatever state, county, province.
I don't care who they can go and actually help support with their money.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think that, you know, one of the things that I'm all about, I think you're all about this and the Mises caucus in general is that this is, we have to go big.
And we have to, you know, whether it's on a local level or it's just messaging on a national level or whatever it is, this is you're, you're in a situation now where you have to recognize that like, you know, playing it safe is suicide.
Like this is, you know, you're down three touchdowns with two minutes to go.
So it's not like, hey, I think we should play conservative and run the football.
It's like, no, that's losing.
That's giving up the game.
There's nothing.
You're going to do zone defense when you're down.
And that's why, and look, if I'm just being completely honest, there are some, there's been some stuff on social media and let's say some bold attempts that I think were misses.
And I was like, yeah, that's not exactly right.
Shouldn't have said it that way.
Should have said it this way.
And I make this known behind the scenes.
I don't come out and like condemn everybody, but I'm on the phone with people when they fuck up.
And I'm like, look, you can't be tweeting that.
You got to say it like this.
It can't.
But it's like, you know, it's like you're down three touchdowns with two minutes to go and somebody's trying a crazy Hail Mary, you know, pass.
And then you got these guys who want to run the ball on the sides going, nice Helmery loser.
And you're like, at least they're taking a shot down the field, man.
Like you got to try something.
You have to, at this point, and whether it's that you get into some executive position on a local level, or if it's just the messaging of a national campaign, we can't be out there saying in any way, shape, or form the same exact thing that the corporate press is saying.
I think this is what was so frustrating to a lot of people about the 2020 campaign.
It's not just it, this has to be, you have to present something shockingly different that jolts people out of their current states and goes, hey, guys, look around.
This is collapsing and it's collapsing for a reason.
And we have the answers to this.
And if we're not going to try to do that, then this is going to be a failed project.
Yeah.
You know, it reminds me, and I see a lot of things through a military lens, right?
Is when there's incoming, and I'm talking about incoming rounds, incoming munitions, whatever the case is, you'll see some guys get very, very small.
You will see guys cower in a place that they think is safe.
It's not safe.
And then you've got the guys that are like, you have to move.
You have to shoot and move.
This is your only way you're going to survive this type of situation.
It's the same thing in politics.
If you're not moving, if you're not shooting, if you're not on the offense the entire time, you have a very, very good chance of dying.
Whereas if you are shooting and moving, man, at least you're taking the fight out.
At least you're going out, you know, on that note.
And I'll tell you, in this world, there are some things that are worth dying for.
And to be a slave to, man, to have to, you know, be on your deathbed and look up at your children and say, instead of, you know, fighting my ass off for your future, for your liberty, man, I, I coward.
Like, no, man, like at the end of the day, that's the way it's going to have to be is like, we got to be very, very bold in this attempt.
And I think it was a conversation you were having with Spike Cohen, you know, maybe last year, early this year sometime when you guys were kind of talking about wins and losses.
Like this, I don't see, you know, the system lasting to a libertarian, you know, takeover.
What I see is if libertarians are taking over, it's going to be kind of what's happening now is this decentralization, this nullification effort across the board.
And it's going to slowly crumble to the point where those guys just don't have control anymore.
And you figure out that, you know, that your local apparatus, whatever that is, is way more powerful than you ever expected it to be in the first place.
So it's more or less for me in terms of like winning and losing.
That's not really a thing.
Is how many people are we peeling off?
How many people do we have that will follow you to this end of saying, hey, this is the line in the sand.
These are my principles and I'm going to be consistent across this until the day I die.
Yes, that's, I think that's exactly right.
And I don't think, I think that the dream, in a way, it's a very statist way of looking at the world, but we all get sucked into it because we've, you know, we've existed in a statist, you know, paradigm for our whole lives.
But that you always have this, this kind of vision that like, well, we elect the best president ever, president libertarian, and then president libertarian goes in there and does all of these libertarian things.
And the reality of the situation is that president libertarian gets anywhere close to the White House and he probably takes a convertible ride through Dallas.
There's not, it's not going to happen that way, you know, like it's, it's just, but the thing, what we can do, right, is that we can use the presidential campaigns to wake a whole lot of people up and take as much local control as we can.
And if we were to create a situation where let's say, just roughly speaking, there's like, I don't know, right now in America, let's say there's like two to three million really good liberty-minded people.
It's a ballpark number is what we have.
Now, if we took that to 10, to 20, that changes things.
Now, all of a sudden, you've got a market, you know, a true market demand for human liberty.
Now, I'm not saying there's probably not going to be 20 million perfect ANCAP libertarians, but whatever, good enough that they're like pretty much want liberty and recognize the government as evil and voluntary interactions as legitimate.
If you get that, then as this thing collapses, as it transitions, which we're clearly in the middle of a pretty big one, we have a shot.
We have a shot at creating some new order where there can be a larger degree of liberty, certainly than we have right now.
But that's our shot.
It's not, this is why I go, you know, it's funny because there'll be like these people who, like you said, it's a really perfect analogy where it's like, oh, you want to just cower because your desire is safety.
But this is the least safe thing you can do.
This is the irony of it is that you have to conquer your own fears because this is going to lead for those same reasons that you want to cower, you need to actually not cower.
And for people who think like we need to like kind of play it safe or not ruffle too many feathers, like I was saying, this is this guarantees we have zero shot.
So let's take a shot rather than no shot at getting something done.
Take big shots, man.
I'll tell you, I don't know if you're probably the same way.
You know, when you start out doing public life, right?
Like a lot of people, even some of your best friends, quote unquote, will be like, what are you doing?
Like they'll, they'll doubt you.
Instead of like, okay, man, you see something?
You got some passion for something, man.
What can I do to support you?
Like this, that's what it is.
And I think, you know, a lot of people out of that, that last, you know, brief exchanges, you know, there's a lot of people will take, well, he's making fun of, or, you know, he's saying, you know, making jokes about going out and taking a convertible ride through Dallas.
Like, you know, like that's, that's very, like, we're legit.
Like this is, this is the opportunity.
I've heard it, you know, all the time, you know, this, this five-year gap where the country changes, right?
Where whether it's, you know, the 1770s or it's like 18, you know, 60, if it's, I don't know, wherever through history, something clicks, something changes dramatically and it gets whitewashed through history, but this is that time.
Like this, this time, you know, it comes around like 240 something years.
I don't think 1860 was it.
I don't think, you know, the 1940s were it.
I don't think those times were it.
I don't think 1913, you know, was it.
This, however, there is a conscience and a remnant right now that is on fire and just like enough is enough, man.
This is not going to progress past me and my generation.
It's time to take a stand.
Like that's the thing is you got it.
And the thing is, you've got the power with it because look at look at the last year, right?
You know, if we look at this, this, what's happened in terms of the face of tyranny, we've had an entire year where most people, especially from the libertarian side, have said, peace, peace, peace, and been patient.
Even most of America has been patient.
And what has it done?
It's paid off in giving us time and space so that we can have a correction.
Texas is open.
Georgia's open.
Florida's open.
Places are opening up all over the place right now.
And we have an opportunity to say, okay, let's never, ever let this happen again.
Here's how.
No, I think you're absolutely right.
You know, I was saying on the last episode that I'm, as I'm watching right now, as the whole narrative is collapsing, and it's really something like now that Fauci is kind of, it seems being thrown to the wolves.
Like in the same way that Cuomo was the hero and then he was thrown under the bus, now Fauci's getting thrown under the bus.
And I go, man, the only things I can really compare this to in my life are the war in Iraq when that propaganda just all fell to pieces and the Trump-Russia hoax when that all fell to pieces.
And those were big.
I mean, they were huge, huge stories.
And the war in Iraq was a huge thing, particularly for, you know, people like you.
It's a really big thing.
Controlled Opposition Reality00:11:11
But the truth is that most of America was fairly removed from the consequences of that war.
I mean, yes, the indirectly, you know, like, yes, okay, the housing bubble was fueled by keeping interest rates low and all these things, but they don't put that together really.
But no, and there's a lot of Americans out there who do have family members who were, you know, just died or were never the same when they came back and stuff.
But that's still only a small percentage because, you know, we figured out this system where we don't have a conscription army.
We just have this kind of, you know, we just bribe and propagandize the certain group of brave young men to go do the fighting.
But so that collapsed and that did, you know, I mean, it had effects, destroyed the Republican Party.
I mean, without that collapsing, you don't have Donald Trump take over the Republican Party.
There were profound effects.
The Russia thing collapsing did have some profound effects.
But this collapsing is different because this locked Americans in their homes.
This destroyed tens of millions of people's careers, their jobs, millions of children falling behind.
Like this is this collapsing right now gives us an opportunity that we've never had before in my life to really insert our answers into the conversation.
Like, hey, look what we did over this last year.
And this is why, as you said, we never do this again.
We never do this again.
We gave up every ounce of freedom and they were dead wrong.
And more than being dead wrong, they knew.
They knew that they were wrong.
They knew from the entire time that this probably came out of a lab, that it was their research that was funding or their funding and their research that was doing it.
They knew that masking was bullshit.
They knew all of it.
They knew kids didn't get the viruses.
And now it's coming out more and more.
I mean, there's no way they didn't know.
They knew the lockdowns weren't fucking working.
They knew the lockdowns weren't working.
Well, I think the bigger point is like, all right, what was it?
Right.
And we can answer that for them.
This wasn't economic meltdown.
You know, this was bubbles bursting inside of bubbles and the idea that, okay, we're going to manage this by keeping everybody in place and not letting our tax cattle roam about outside of maybe their own state, their own country, things like that, where we can sit there and go, guys, it doesn't matter who was the president.
It doesn't matter if it was Bush or Clinton or Bush again or it doesn't matter.
All this shit was fortuitous.
We've been saying this for over 50 years as the LP.
Now's the time to drag out that 50-year record of being a libertarian and go, look, we were saying it here.
We were saying it here.
We were saying it here.
We're telling you now, it will continue to get worse.
The more band-aids, the more crack that you pour into a crackhead, the next relapse is going to be bigger.
It's going to be worse than this one.
And so I don't know, man.
There's some things out there that I'm excited about, like, you know, some blockchain tech across, you know, not only, you know, things like Bitcoin, but like social media and all that kind of stuff that I see as kind of a tool for us in this really interesting time to sit there and go, hey, guys, look, look over here.
Let's do some education.
And at the same time, let's point them towards some solutions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And it's like, it's, you know, it's a scary time, but it's an exciting time.
But you're right.
I mean, when you see the bubble that they're trying to reinflate, this old beaten down, worn down balloon that they're trying, and now they have to pump so much air into it.
I was reading just earlier today, what is it like that 22% of the money that's being exchanged right now was created in 2020?
Like it's it's unbelievable.
I mean, this isn't even like, this isn't even comparable to the job that they tried in 2008 to reinflate this bubble.
This is just all a complete house of cards at this point that is that has to come crashing down.
So we got to be kind of ready for this next moment.
And like, you know, as you got said before, you know, especially for those of us who got kids, we really got no other option than to really try our best to push this whole, you know, country in the right direction because this is unsustainable.
It's going in a very bad direction.
And I think that's, I don't think anyone disagrees with that at this point.
Everyone knows this is unsustainable and going in a bad direction.
Every crazy far left, crazy far right, all the way in between.
They may have different villains and blame it on different people, but everyone knows this thing is falling apart.
And we libertarians are like the only ones who really have the answers.
Yeah.
And the thing is, is all these criticisms will get, well, what about this?
And what about this?
You're an anarchist or you're a menarchist.
How are we going to provide for things?
What about trash on the side of the road?
And you're like, hey, guys, this all exists in your paradigm now.
What you're doing is pointing out the failures of this government, this murder cult apparatus that's infected our lives forever.
What we don't understand and what we haven't tried, tried is real liberty and real freedom.
And I think, you know, if we can paint it that way, hey, man, sorry, boomers, you guys got caught up in the biggest Ponzi scheme in the world, that the world has ever seen.
And the only way out of this is going to be charity.
You know, that's the thing is your moms and dads and all the grandparents and things like that, they got taken and they enjoyed the ride for as long as they could.
But now it's time.
And you can't deny the nature of consequences that governs our lives and natural law.
So yeah, it's going to fall apart.
It's just like, hey, guys, we got some answers for you.
This can go a lot more smoothly if we're not killing each other.
And that's really kind of where we as libertarians stand is like, guys, it's just the simple rules.
Don't hurt people.
Don't take their stuff.
And good ideas don't require force, man.
If we can stick to these very simple messaging pieces in everything that we're doing, I think we got a great shot of doing this mostly peacefully, at least more peacefully than the riots last summer.
Yeah, let's hope so.
Those were, well, they were, from what I understand, mostly peaceful.
Mostly peaceful riots.
Right at night.
Fiery but peaceful riots.
Yeah.
So we're coming up toward the end of time here, but I just wanted to get you to talk a little bit about your experience running for Senate in 2020, what that was like.
You became kind of in the middle of what ended up being the biggest Senate race in the country and that ended up going to like this special runoff election.
And so what was that like?
Looking back at it, how do you feel about the whole thing?
Well, being Schroeder's candidate, right, in this whole thing is like the guy that can't do anything, but the guy that costs everything for the Republicans.
It's been wild, man.
All the hate mail.
I mean, it keeps me up at night at never.
So it's been a lot of fun.
That's the thing is, like, I've got some pretty thick skin.
I don't really care.
I've made peace with the people that don't like me and all that fun stuff.
I will tell you, running for Senate as a, you know, kind of a part-time job was kind of, you know, one of the greatest things that I think I had the, I don't know, the pleasure and the, the, I, I don't even call it the pleasure, just the opportunity to do.
I didn't have a campaign manager.
I ran it myself.
So my messaging was mine.
I owned every bit of it.
And a lot of times with campaigns, people will try to tell you, do this, not that, don't ever do this kind of stuff.
And to try to, you know, use this as an experiment to say, listen, I'm not taking your funds.
I'm staying away from this kind of stuff.
I'm going to, I'm going to self-fund.
And really, I didn't spend a dime to bring, you know, the Republicans to their knees begging and, you know, for an endorsement.
That was, that was really, really something to be able to do it in a time of COVID, to reach out through channels like this.
It was something I think, you know, we found a lot of purchase.
I mean, I think we doubled Joe Jorgensen's votes down here in Georgia for that race.
It was about 115,000 votes where, you know, she got like about half of that.
So I enjoyed it.
It was a different type of campaign than my first one.
And I'll tell you, you know, if anybody tells you that they know how to run campaigns effectively, man, you need to second guess what they're saying.
You know, if you think you've got to call and do all of this, you know, door knocking and everything else, the game has changed.
You know, where most people spend all their time these days is on their phone, right?
So if you can be there doing shows, doing, you know, press or putting out memes or that, that is an instrumental piece.
So I think I just learned a lot about in terms of applying, you know, kind of the asymmetrical type of warfare, you know, in this case.
And it peeled off a bunch of people and it really just exposed the GOP for who they are.
Yeah.
And good for good.
You know, it's funny when these people, like it's like the Republican types who are like, oh, look, you ruined it for us or something.
It's like, yeah, good.
We're not you.
We're not trying to get Republicans elected.
Like I've had tons of Republicans get elected all over the place for my entire life and it's done nothing.
It's not even like the rate of growth of the state slows down if Republicans get in there.
It accelerates.
And then the Democrats blame free markets for the acceleration and they accelerate it even more.
Like I look the thing is that why is it that the LP wasn't going to successfully be able to go primary Ron Paul?
Because he was so damn good on everything.
So if the Republicans want to not be able to get primaried by libertarians, be good on stuff.
Be good on something.
Be good on like three things and you probably wouldn't, we probably wouldn't be able to peel the votes away from you.
There you go, man.
Just don't be a 50% constitutional voter with all of our rights in the tank, right?
Like get fucked.
It's like our boy Pete Kimianis always says, it's like, even when the Republicans are in power, they fucking lose.
And like, they're controlled opposition at this point is as far as I'm concerned.
So well, they certainly are in effect.
You know, if that's not even like whether, whether or not it's all they're, you know, like intentionally controlled opposition, like literally controlled opposition, their effect is the same.
I mean, it's like, what did, you know, like Donald Trump, even the people who elected Trump because they cared so much about the culture.
And I can, in some ways, not all, but in some ways, I can relate to that.
You know, like I also have complaints about the current culture that we live in.
But there was no pendulum swing back right when Donald Trump got in.
We swung way further left.
I mean, it's literally, he was, he did nothing except act as the best fundraising tool and organizer for all of the crazy progressives who he supposedly was fighting against.
And then got a guy who never could have been elected president, who's tried three times and got like 1% of the vote or something like that.
And he's in now.
Learning From Twitter00:01:33
So what?
So I'm supposed to just shut up so that we can keep that game going.
I say, I'm happy to spoil it for them.
Absolutely.
And you should be happy.
I mean, I'm going to do it here in 2022 again.
I'm going to run for governor down here.
Well, I'm going to seek the Libertarian nomination for governor down here.
You know, in this type of environment, Brian Kemp, our governor, just went down to the GOP convention and got booed, almost out of the room, booed when he took the stage.
You know, they've got this former Democrat Trump guy who's going to primary him along with, you know, some Bible beater sweetheart down here.
And it's like, oh, you guys have no idea of what's coming.
You didn't learn your lesson with David Perdue.
Well, you're going to learn your lesson real quick with here with this one.
And Democrats, I'll tell you what, they're not immune to this either because when we look at Stacey Abrams or Keisha Lance Bottoms or whatever her name is down here that are thinking about it, man, we're going to peel you guys off with all sorts of reform in the criminal justice fields.
Yeah.
Hell yeah, man.
Well, I can't wait.
I can't wait to watch it.
I'm looking forward to it.
Dude, we got to wrap, but thank you so much.
Shane Hazel, everybody.
Go follow him.
Anything you want to plug?
Your show is radical, your Twitter handle, anything like that.