Part Of The Problem - Dave Smith - 739 - Modern Apartheid w/ Scott Horton
Aired: 2021-06-01
Duration: 01:26:18


=== First Time Meeting Wendy (02:09) ===

[00:00:00]  Fill her up.
[00:00:02]  You are listening to the Gas Digital Network.
[00:00:08]  We need to roll back the state.
[00:00:10]  We spy on all of our own citizens.
[00:00:12]  Our prisons are flooded with nonviolent drug offenders.
[00:00:16]  If you want to know who America's next enemy is, look at who we're funding right now.
[00:00:22]  Every single one of these problems are a result of government being way too big.
[00:00:27]  You're listening to part of the problem on the Gas Digital Network.
[00:00:30]  Here's your host, James Smith.
[00:00:34]  Hey guys, thanks for listening to this episode.
[00:00:36]  This is the episode I recorded with Scott Horton on the Israel-Palestine conflict a few weeks ago.
[00:00:43]  Had some trouble with the files, so I apologize for the delay, but we recorded this in the hotel at the Libertarian Party Mises Caucus event in Pittsburgh.
[00:00:54]  So video and audio is not quite what it normally is, but it's a really great episode.
[00:01:00]  Scott breaks down the conflict as only the great Scott Horton can.
[00:01:03]  So I hope you enjoy the episode.
[00:01:05]  Also, don't forget to check me and Robbie the Fire Bernstein out live in Brooklyn on June 6th and June 13th and live in Nortwalk, Connecticut, June 19th.
[00:01:17]  Two shows up there.
[00:01:18]  I'll post the links for them.
[00:01:19]  You can check on my Twitter.
[00:01:21]  Anyway, enjoy the show.
[00:01:22]  I appreciate you came right from the plane to my hotel room so we could record this because I needed to get an episode with you in.
[00:01:29]  You know, I was thinking about this.
[00:01:30]  This is only the second time, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, the second time we've ever done a podcast in a room together.
[00:01:38]  That's true.
[00:01:38]  You did one at my house.
[00:01:40]  And we didn't even know each other that well.
[00:01:41]  Yeah, that was the first time I met you.
[00:01:43]  It was the first time you met me in person.
[00:01:44]  I think you had done my show like once or twice before that.
[00:01:48]  And my show was still small enough where I was like, it's so cool that Scott's doing my show.
[00:01:54]  I'm not sure that I'd done your show before.
[00:01:55]  I think that might have been the first time I did your show.
[00:01:57]  We sat there and we talked for three hours and then we recorded one at two or something.
[00:02:01]  This is how small and irrelevant my show was is that you don't even remember that you had done my show before that.
[00:02:06]  Let me tell you something.
[00:02:07]  I've done a lot of shows, Dave.

=== One State Solution Debate (12:37) ===

[00:02:10]  Well, that is true.
[00:02:10]  Thousands of shows.
[00:02:12]  You are willing to do just about anybody's show, but it's great.
[00:02:15]  It's great that you're willing to do that.
[00:02:17]  Yeah, anyway.
[00:02:18]  All right, so I've just been here in the hotel room thinking about my speech and eating an embarrassing amount of Wendy's.
[00:02:23]  But anyway, getting ready for this.
[00:02:24]  By the way, I fucking ordered Wendy's on Seamless and fucking Seamless has my, it's like a, it's an app, yeah, I did on the computer, but so the account has my number, but my wife's email address in it.
[00:02:37]  So Seamless ratted me out.
[00:02:39]  I ordered an embarrassing amount of Wendy's, and then my wife just texts me, I have a lot of Wendy's.
[00:02:44]  And I'm like, motherfucker, Seamless, you sold me down the river.
[00:02:48]  That's terrible.
[00:02:48]  Anyway, yeah, it's awful.
[00:02:49]  I was like, huh?
[00:02:50]  What?
[00:02:50]  She's failing you, man.
[00:02:52]  That's your number bad.
[00:02:53]  Well, it's me.
[00:02:54]  I did it to myself.
[00:02:54]  I could have just taken her off of it.
[00:02:56]  Okay.
[00:02:56]  So I wanted to talk to you about the Israel-Palestine conflict because that's the big foreign policy news of the last week.
[00:03:06]  And people on Twitter are going crazy about it.
[00:03:09]  People were asking me to give my opinion on it.
[00:03:11]  I felt like I'd rather just have a podcast with you and actually get down to, you know, breaking everything down.
[00:03:17]  I will say this just to start things off, and then you can kind of pick where you want to go.
[00:03:22]  But just in general about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, this is something that I've, because I'm Jewish, this is something that I've argued with family about.
[00:03:31]  I've gotten shit in my personal life and in the political realm and stuff like that because I just think the government of Israel is horrible and what they're doing to the Palestinian people is just inexcusable.
[00:03:46]  And there's this weird dynamic with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that doesn't exist with other governments, you know?
[00:03:53]  I think part of it's because, well, there's a special relationship between the U.S. government and Israel because the Jewish people are like a religion and a race and a state and the Holocaust happened to them.
[00:04:06]  And so there's all of these emotions that get used and they're always hiding behind different targets.
[00:04:11]  Like, you know, if you say, I think it was Tom Woods who said this once, but if I go like, you know, what the French did to the, you know, the Algerians in the 50s was just horrible.
[00:04:21]  No one goes, what are you an anti-Frankite?
[00:04:24]  You know what I mean?
[00:04:24]  Like, that's just not the response.
[00:04:26]  But if I go, what the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinian people is just horrible.
[00:04:32]  These are the labels that come out.
[00:04:34]  And as libertarians, what we care about, you know, like all these other issues get in.
[00:04:38]  It's like, well, are you saying that you think the Palestinian, you know, the way they treat their women or the way their religion or their culture or this or compare this to Israel?
[00:04:47]  It's like, we're libertarians.
[00:04:49]  We care about aggression.
[00:04:50]  Who is aggressing against who?
[00:04:52]  And particularly, we care about state aggression.
[00:04:55]  And it seems pretty obvious in this case that like the Israelis are basically holding these people prisoner for decades.
[00:05:04]  Like how else would you look at it?
[00:05:07]  Well, that's the whole thing with it, Dave, right?
[00:05:09]  Is people don't know that.
[00:05:11]  Yeah.
[00:05:11]  And the reason why is because TV never explains it.
[00:05:14]  TV never says, here's the map.
[00:05:17]  Here's who's Zoom and who, who's occupying who, and how to understand it ever.
[00:05:21]  Not even in a dishonest way.
[00:05:23]  Yeah.
[00:05:23]  They just don't even talk about that.
[00:05:25]  They don't show you the map and explain really anything.
[00:05:29]  And so, you know, it's just like they say about blowback, right?
[00:05:33]  It's not necessarily covert action, but consequences of secret foreign policies or at least unknown foreign policies.
[00:05:42]  That then, when the consequences come due, the people are left open to alternative explanations, false explanations for what's going on here.
[00:05:49]  Oh, they hate us for our freedom because they're Muslim, right?
[00:05:52]  Well, I saw the Babylon B.
[00:05:54]  I was so pissed because I like the Babylon B.
[00:05:56]  And their article on this is so stupid and lazy.
[00:06:00]  Oh, the Arabs want to kill all the Jews and the Jews don't want to die.
[00:06:06]  And somehow they can't find a place of compromise.
[00:06:09]  Like, oh, get the hell.
[00:06:12]  That's just so weak.
[00:06:13]  I mean, if I was on the other side of the argument, I could have done a lot better than that.
[00:06:17]  Seriously, that's what it's about?
[00:06:18]  Is the Palestinians?
[00:06:20]  Are the Nazis trying to perpetrate a Holocaust against the Israelis?
[00:06:24]  And the poor little Israelis are defending themselves?
[00:06:26]  Really?
[00:06:27]  I mean, come on.
[00:06:29]  But you know what?
[00:06:30]  If you do look at the map, it kind of looks like the Muslims invaded and took a chunk out of Israel, doesn't it?
[00:06:36]  Right, right.
[00:06:37]  But see, that's the West Bank.
[00:06:38]  That's what's left of Palestine.
[00:06:41]  That's the measly stinking 22% of what's left of Palestine after the Israelis conquered and took and cleansed the rest.
[00:06:51]  Okay.
[00:06:51]  And that's the part they never tell you.
[00:06:53]  But if you look on, you know, and I know this from people in good faith coming to me all week long saying, what's going on here?
[00:06:59]  What should I read?
[00:07:00]  What do I need to know?
[00:07:00]  Because they know that they don't know anything about it.
[00:07:03]  And then people say, I didn't have the stomach to hit the button on the thing, but somebody sent me the Ben Shapiro explanation of it.
[00:07:13]  And I could see like in the caption, was like, well, what would you do?
[00:07:16]  Or I might be mixing two different things.
[00:07:18]  I'm not sure if this was Shapiro or not.
[00:07:20]  It might have been.
[00:07:20]  But anyway, same difference.
[00:07:22]  What would you do if Mexico started firing a bunch of rockets over the border that we would just sit there and take it?
[00:07:29]  But that's not the analogy, right?
[00:07:31]  The analogy is if we had never stopped persecuting the Navajo and we made their reservation ever smaller and smaller and smaller this whole time.
[00:07:41]  And now we got walls around the Navajo reservation and something or another happened and now there are rockets coming over the wall.
[00:07:52]  At least now our metaphor is somewhat apt, right?
[00:07:56]  This is not Mexico.
[00:07:58]  You know, I'm talking about, you know, I'm talking about the Navajo.
[00:08:00]  I'm talking about the part of Mexico that we took away completely.
[00:08:04]  But the part of, they're talking about the Mexico south of the Rio Grande as though Palestine is a sovereign nation.
[00:08:10]  In fact, this was a viral tweet was Gal Gadat, the actress from Wonder Woman, said, oh, my heart breaks and my crocodile tears flow for the strife between or the violence between us and our neighbors.
[00:08:24]  Oh, now the Palestinians are your neighbors.
[00:08:27]  Now Gaza and the West Bank is a sovereign, independent state.
[00:08:32]  So that's now you're in an international conflict with your next door neighbor when the reality is they conquered the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967.
[00:08:43]  54 years ago, the Palestinians were licked.
[00:08:47]  And by the way, they didn't start that war.
[00:08:49]  Israel started that war against Egypt.
[00:08:51]  And then Jordan and Egypt controlled Gaza.
[00:08:53]  And Jordan, which controlled the West Bank, and Syria jumped in, and they all lost.
[00:08:58]  And what?
[00:08:59]  To the victor go the spoils, except that's not the law.
[00:09:02]  And also, the Palestinians had nothing to do with that.
[00:09:05]  Well, even.
[00:09:05]  They were stuck in the middle of that.
[00:09:06]  They didn't start that war.
[00:09:08]  Right.
[00:09:08]  And even, so that's such an important point in the framing of this, right?
[00:09:13]  And it really, it reminds me of just in general in the war on terror.
[00:09:17]  When convenient, they're wars.
[00:09:20]  And also when convenient, they're not wars.
[00:09:23]  That's right.
[00:09:24]  So when, if they're like, hey, we don't have the legal authority to fight these wars.
[00:09:27]  Well, they're just military actions and blah, blah, blah, this and that.
[00:09:29]  You know what I mean?
[00:09:30]  It's like, oh, so we don't really need congressional approval because the president has the right to, you know.
[00:09:34]  But when we're passing the Patriot Act or taking away your liberty, well, it's wartime.
[00:09:38]  So this is the same with the Palestinians, right?
[00:09:41]  That's right.
[00:09:41]  From the river to the sea, you'll have one security force for all time.
[00:09:45]  I swear to God, says Benjamin Netanyahu.
[00:09:47]  Well, sounds like one state to me.
[00:09:48]  Right.
[00:09:49]  Except half the population, fully half the population has no rights.
[00:09:54]  So it seems like this, right?
[00:09:55]  This is the dynamic.
[00:09:57]  Either you are two states, they are your neighbors, and you're being attacked from another country, in which case you're in violation of international law because you are invading this country constantly.
[00:10:10]  You're blockading this country, right?
[00:10:11]  So you're in violation of crimes against humanity, violating international law, if they're a sovereign state.
[00:10:18]  Or it's one state, in which case you're an apartheid state where you're holding down.
[00:10:23]  And the reality is that.
[00:10:24]  The reality is that it's one state.
[00:10:26]  The reality is that there's second-class citizens who don't have any basic freedoms that you would expect in any, you know, everybody, because then the talking point is only, well, Israel is the only advanced Western democracy in the region.
[00:10:41]  Well, not if they're all one state.
[00:10:43]  If they're all one state, then they're not at all a democracy.
[00:10:46]  They are an apartheid state with a caste system.
[00:10:49]  And that's much more a realistic portrayal of what's happening already.
[00:10:53]  Exactly right.
[00:10:53]  But they don't want to say that because then they lose all credibility.
[00:10:56]  And now, look, we're going to get to the current conflict and talk about the rockets and all this.
[00:10:59]  No, but I think it's important to kind of frame it.
[00:11:02]  We got to zoom out because, and this is my argument whenever I talk with any, I just know this is right because I know from my own experience, okay?
[00:11:08]  Like I was interested in politics from the time I was very young.
[00:11:13]  And learning about Israel-Palestine was one of the things I put off until last.
[00:11:17]  And in fact, I remember even, I had this great high school history teacher who was trying to get it through my thick skull even then.
[00:11:25]  And I was saying to her, oh yeah, no, God gave us this land.
[00:11:28]  No, God gave us this land.
[00:11:29]  No, God gave us this land.
[00:11:30]  No God gave us this land.
[00:11:31]  In other words, I don't give a damn, right?
[00:11:34]  Like these people have a completely irrational argument between them and it doesn't concern me.
[00:11:40]  And neither of them could possibly be right since I don't believe in any of this stuff.
[00:11:44]  And so I don't care.
[00:11:46]  And I don't know.
[00:11:48]  And also the way that they portray it all the time is they say, well, we're going to have a two-state solution.
[00:11:55]  And also, Palestine is already the country next door that's attacking us and using terrorism against us.
[00:12:00]  It's just kind of confusing.
[00:12:02]  And again, they never show the map on TV and point and go, look, man, this is who's Zoom and who over here in any kind of coherent way.
[00:12:11]  And so I was in my, I think, even mid-20s.
[00:12:18]  No, no, no.
[00:12:19]  Well, yeah, yeah, it would have been, I would have been like 22, 23, like right, you know, at the time of the dawn of the terror war, 24, 25, at the dawn of the terror war, before I finally understood about after the 67 war, the Israelis never left.
[00:12:32]  They kept that territory and the people too.
[00:12:34]  And they actually cleansed another about 250,000, 300,000 people, but they kept millions of them.
[00:12:39]  They got 6 million Palestinians now living in the West Bank.
[00:12:44]  So rewind.
[00:12:45]  In 48, when they created the state of Israel, in 47, 48, they had what was called the Nakba, which is a massive ethnic cleansing campaign.
[00:12:54]  They forced civilian, you know, there was fighting going on.
[00:12:56]  All the civilian refugees fled, but then they never let them come home.
[00:13:00]  And what they did is they just bulldozed their villages, completely destroyed them, and built brand new Israeli towns on top of them and just erased all vestiges of it.
[00:13:09]  Young Jews are brought up in America donating to the pine tree and fir tree plant.
[00:13:16]  That's part of the ethnic cleansing of planting these forests where there used to be people's villages.
[00:13:22]  And they don't ever tell the kids that, but that's what it's really about is, oh no, this is the wilderness.
[00:13:27]  Nobody ever lived here, you know, kind of just public relations thing.
[00:13:31]  But here's the deal.
[00:13:32]  So they cleansed, as they call it, not my term, they cleansed 750,000 Palestinian Muslims and Christians into the Gaza Strip, into the West Bank, and then into Syria, Jordan, and Kuwait, and wherever it would take them, I guess, Tunisia.
[00:13:49]  And so there are, you know, refugees everywhere.
[00:13:52]  But then in what we call Israel proper now, within the green line, or they'll call it 67 borders or pre-67 war borders, that created an 80-20 super duper Jewish majority.
[00:14:05]  So you still did have some Arabs who remained.
[00:14:09]  And in fact, there was one American Christian volunteer in the Israeli army at the time who was ordered to cleanse Bethlehem and said, oh, fuck, I'm not doing that.
[00:14:19]  I am not cleansing Bethlehem.
[00:14:21]  And so he just refused the order.
[00:14:23]  And so that's why, you know, that was part of why Bethlehem stayed at that time a Palestinian city and didn't go to the Israeli Jews at that time.
[00:14:32]  Anyway, so they created an 80-20 super duper majority.
[00:14:36]  Now, the so-called Israeli Arabs or the Palestinian Christians of the Palestinian citizens of Israel are essentially third-class citizens, second-class citizens.

=== Jim Crow and Segregation (02:44) ===

[00:14:47]  They're not allowed to live.
[00:14:48]  They're treated like blacks in Mississippi in Jim Crow, not in slavery, but during Jim Crow, basically.
[00:14:53]  Segregation, all kinds of restrictions.
[00:14:56]  And they're allowed to have representation in the Knesset, but by tradition, and this has held this whole time, no group of Jewish parties in the parliament will win if they have to invite Arabs into their coalition to win.
[00:15:13]  They would rather lose and let the other guys rule than come to power by including the Arabs.
[00:15:19]  So the Arab groups in the Knesset never are part of the ruling coalition, no matter what.
[00:15:24]  And that's how it's always been.
[00:15:26]  So they have, you know, the Israelis like to hide behind them and go, oh, they live so well in our country and whatever.
[00:15:32]  Yeah.
[00:15:33]  Well, compared to the people living just down the block in the same city, no, they don't.
[00:15:37]  You know, they're completed treatly unfairly.
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=== Israel's Founding Fathers (14:50) ===

[00:17:32]  All right, let's get back into the show.
[00:17:34]  In the 48 war, the Israelis made a secret deal with the king of Jordan because, you know, the United Nations recommendation, not like the United Nations has the authority to create a sovereign state.
[00:17:45]  They don't.
[00:17:45]  It was just the General Assembly recommended this partition.
[00:17:49]  The Israelis get a state.
[00:17:50]  It was a crazy shape.
[00:17:51]  The way it was supposed to work was impossible anyway.
[00:17:53]  But the Israelis would get a state and the Palestinians will get a state.
[00:17:56]  And the Israelis made a secret deal with the king of Jordan that he would take all of the West Bank.
[00:18:00]  The Israelis would not fight him in the 48 war.
[00:18:03]  They fought mostly against Syria and Egypt.
[00:18:06]  And Jordan and Israel left each other alone so that the Jordanians could take the West Bank to short-circuit the idea that there would ever be an independent Palestinian state.
[00:18:14]  So there never has been the entire time since they took the thing over.
[00:18:18]  And then, so I'm not certain.
[00:18:21]  I think Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip virtually during all of that time.
[00:18:25]  And there were settler colonists there, Israeli colonists on the West Bank too.
[00:18:31]  Sharon finally pulled them out in 2005, but there were colonists there, you know, for many years too.
[00:18:36]  But then in, and I'm not sure beginning when, honestly, but in 1967, 54 years ago, was the Six-Day War.
[00:18:44]  And this is the one that Israel started.
[00:18:47]  And Ben-Gurion, not Ben-Gurion, Begin admitted it.
[00:18:51]  You can find the quote where Begin says, come on.
[00:18:54]  I know we like to tell everybody the Egyptians were attacking us and we preempted them, but we all know that's not really true.
[00:19:00]  And so you can find the quote where he explains.
[00:19:03]  They took the opportunity to attack Egypt.
[00:19:06]  And then Jordan and Syria jumped in the war and they took the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
[00:19:12]  As I mentioned, they cleansed another 250,000, 300,000 people out of the West Bank at that time.
[00:19:18]  But then they kept it all.
[00:19:19]  And now they call it Judea and Sumeria.
[00:19:22]  And the idea is quite contrary to the international law written by the United States in the aftermath of World War II, when Hitler's Lebensraum doctrine was made illegal for all time on the planet Earth.
[00:19:37]  Or else America will attack you if you break the law.
[00:19:39]  If you try to invade your next door neighbor and take their land, America will come and solve that.
[00:19:44]  The UN Security Council will come and solve that.
[00:19:46]  I'm not saying I'm for the UN, but I'm saying this is at least the stench of the hypocrisy here.
[00:19:51]  This is all the international law that the United States of America wrote and foisted on the world in the name of the so-called liberal rules-based international order on all of this.
[00:20:01]  But the Israelis outright are war criminals.
[00:20:04]  They outright are in violation of all of that.
[00:20:06]  They invade the West Bank.
[00:20:07]  They start moving colonists in.
[00:20:09]  They started doing it almost immediately throughout the 1970s.
[00:20:12]  Now, most people don't even know this, right?
[00:20:13]  The Camp David Accord in 1979, when Jimmy Carter negotiated peace between Egypt and Israel, part of that deal was, and you got to promise to work on this peace process towards an independent Palestinian state.
[00:20:27]  Stop the expansion of settlements on the West Bank and let the Palestinians have the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
[00:20:33]  And of course, they never did that.
[00:20:34]  They never lived up to that part of the deal at all.
[00:20:37]  Then when H.W. Bush came in after Reagan, he and Baker really wanted to see an end to the settlements.
[00:20:50]  And James Baker said, and they did this, I forget if it was before or after the Madrid conference, where they said, oh, we're going to cut support.
[00:20:58]  We're not going to give you money until you stop expanding the settlements on the West Bank.
[00:21:04]  And then I don't know where this quote really comes from, but apparently it's a real quote.
[00:21:08]  Was that James Baker?
[00:21:09]  This is a quote.
[00:21:11]  James Baker said, fuck the Jews.
[00:21:13]  They don't vote for us anyway.
[00:21:15]  And then somebody like publicized that.
[00:21:18]  And so they went, oh, yeah.
[00:21:20]  And they went and put all of their weight.
[00:21:22]  And I guess, and Yitzhak Shamir was the absolutely horrible, to quote Murray Rothbard, prime minister of Israel at the time.
[00:21:31]  And I think Bush had even said something like, geez, I wish we had a different prime minister over there to deal with.
[00:21:38]  And they got rid of him.
[00:21:39]  They held new elections.
[00:21:40]  They were like, whoa, we better do what they say, to a degree.
[00:21:43]  But then there was backlash from that.
[00:21:44]  We got to get rid of this Bush guy.
[00:21:47]  And then they put all of their weight behind Bill Clinton.
[00:21:49]  Now, I don't have any reason to believe that Zionism had anything to do with Ross Perot's run.
[00:21:54]  Then there were a lot of reasons that people in power in America wanted to split the vote against Bush and secure the election of the Democrat in 92.
[00:22:01]  This was one of them.
[00:22:02]  And Clinton attacked Bush from the right on Palestine, the same as China in 92.
[00:22:07]  There is something right like the, it's a real problem amongst, let's say, the anti-Zionists and amongst some legitimate real deal anti-Semites on the right wing who do blame the Jews for everything.
[00:22:20]  Like everything is the fault of this like Zionist control.
[00:22:24]  And that's not, you know, that's certainly not your argument and it's not my argument.
[00:22:29]  But if we're looking at this objectively, you really can't deny that Israel does have some pretty incredible amounts of, they have more of a voice than most.
[00:22:41]  Hey, I'll tell you what.
[00:22:42]  Let's say this.
[00:22:43]  H.W. Skull and Bones Bush, he blamed the Israel lot for his loss in 92.
[00:22:50]  Okay.
[00:22:50]  So it's not just, you know, some outside observers.
[00:22:54]  Right.
[00:22:54]  Some outside observer.
[00:22:56]  The guy himself did look at it that way, right?
[00:22:58]  So, and it does seem like there's been lots of examples with Bush, with Clinton, the next guy who they get in there, where they seem to run around what the American president actually wants to see happen in the region, which is still pretty friendly to the Israelis.
[00:23:17]  You know, like, let's get real.
[00:23:18]  It's not like there's a pro-Palestinian American president here.
[00:23:21]  Just one being like, okay, could you stop building so much on their land?
[00:23:26]  Like, could you scale it back a little?
[00:23:28]  And they seem to find a way around that and somehow are still collecting billions in U.S. taxpayer money, getting, you know, having us fight all types of wars that are in their benefit.
[00:23:41]  Again, there's lots of different factors that go into us fighting these wars.
[00:23:45]  It's not simply that they're wars for Israel, but they do all seem to be the wars that Israel wants us to fight.
[00:23:52]  That's part of the story here.
[00:23:54]  Yeah.
[00:23:54]  Well, you know, in the new book, the Iraq War II chapter has a hell of a lot to do with the neoconservative faction, and they are the vanguard of the Israel lobby in the United States of America.
[00:24:03]  There's no question.
[00:24:05]  That's what the neoconservative movement is.
[00:24:07]  Right.
[00:24:08]  And, you know, and they are the ones who got that work done.
[00:24:10]  There's just no question about that.
[00:24:13]  But skipping ahead.
[00:24:14]  Now, so in the Clinton years, they had what was called the peace process, right?
[00:24:17]  You had this, it's kind of a complicated mess, but the Israeli prime minister was Yitzhak Rabin, and he didn't, there's an excellent book by Jeremy R. Hammond called Obstacle to Peace, The American Role in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.
[00:24:31]  Killer book.
[00:24:32]  Just killer book.
[00:24:34]  And he details in here just beyond reason, in fact.
[00:24:39]  The level of scholarship in this book is incredible, where he goes through and shows how, despite all of the mythology around it, Rabin was never really going to give up a Palestinian state at all, but he was going to give up enough of one.
[00:24:54]  Something like Bantu stands and semi-independence, probably more independence than they got now.
[00:25:00]  I mean, quite a bit more than they have now, but still nothing like a true sovereign state on the West Bank and East Jerusalem there.
[00:25:07]  But then he was shot by a right-wing Jew, yeah, essentially a Netanyahu fan.
[00:25:14]  Right.
[00:25:16]  Kill them for this.
[00:25:18]  And then he was replaced by his, I forget if Perez was the defense minister or the president at the time.
[00:25:24]  I think he was defense minister at the time.
[00:25:26]  And then Perez became prime minister.
[00:25:30]  And so this gets into Iran policy.
[00:25:34]  Well, just to say, though, because I know this from like within my Jewish family and friends of the family and stuff, there's a dynamic in Israel that, you know, I think it's hard for Americans to understand because our country is a few hundred years old and Israel is not.
[00:25:49]  And there is at least the attitude amongst most Jews that I knew, like in New York, is that this very, you know, real living memory of the Holocaust and the idea that Israel was the protection for the Jews.
[00:26:03]  Like this is what guarantees that there won't be another Holocaust.
[00:26:06]  And there's this reverence for the first generation.
[00:26:09]  Like their founding fathers are not that long ago.
[00:26:13]  And even Netanyahu today is like one degree removed from like their founding fathers.
[00:26:18]  You know, like he's real connected to like the original.
[00:26:21]  And Yitzhak Rabin was like a real deal God.
[00:26:26]  And Perez too.
[00:26:27]  And Sharon, too.
[00:26:27]  They all fought in the 48 war.
[00:26:29]  Right.
[00:26:29]  So they all fought in the 48 war, but I will say that everybody I knew, now this is, I'm a little bit taking a biased sample here because these were like mostly New York Democrat Jews, but they all loved Yitzhak Rabin and they all thought he was doing the right thing.
[00:26:44]  And for someone like that, it was almost, you know, in a sense, even though I'm talking about Democrats here, it was attacking the right from the right.
[00:26:51]  Like it was someone who is that credentialized that they could say, no, we have to move toward peace.
[00:26:56]  And even if the peace wasn't as good as we would want it to be, they all did.
[00:27:01]  He really could have gotten something done.
[00:27:03]  He could have convinced a lot of them that like if he was doing it, all right, if this guy who's that knighted is doing this, then it's something that we got to respect.
[00:27:12]  And so this dumb right-winger shooting him really screwed everything up.
[00:27:15]  One schmuck with a revolver put in all that, you know?
[00:27:19]  Yeah, and then so Perez comes in and, well, I skipped apart.
[00:27:22]  So when Rabin was in power, he had shifted Israel's strategy in the region from the periphery strategy of alliance with Turkey, Iran, and I guess what Sudan to divide Egypt in order to keep all of the Arab states around them divided on two flanks, right?
[00:27:43]  And after the revolution in Iran in 79, that didn't change.
[00:27:47]  The Israelis kept their relationship with Iran all the way through until about 93, 94.
[00:27:52]  And it was Rabin who changed it.
[00:27:55]  And the reason that he did was he said, We need to now essentially turn the policy inside out.
[00:27:59]  Now we're going to negotiate with the Arabs and make peace with the Arabs, not just Egypt, but more of them.
[00:28:04]  And I guess I forgot when they made peace with Jordan.
[00:28:08]  I just don't remember if that was 79 or later.
[00:28:11]  Anyway, we're going to negotiate more with the Arabs.
[00:28:15]  And Iran is the real bad guy.
[00:28:17]  And that's why we need to make peace with the Arabs because they're the ones.
[00:28:21]  And the reason he did that was so because I think he wanted to come to some sort of end-state situation in the West Bank.
[00:28:30]  It wasn't going to be a real Palestinian state, but it was going to be all you're going to get, and that was final kind of thing.
[00:28:35]  And so, in order to do that, he needed to say, Iran is the bad guy here.
[00:28:40]  And it's in Trita Parsi's book that the people in the Clinton administration just thought this was hilarious.
[00:28:44]  That, hey, did you hear the Israelis hate Iran now?
[00:28:47]  What?
[00:28:47]  Why?
[00:28:48]  What happened?
[00:28:48]  Oh, nothing.
[00:28:49]  They just, you know, changed their mind about how they want to do their strategy.
[00:28:52]  Now, it has nothing to do with anything the Ayatollah did.
[00:28:54]  You know, the old, the mean old Ayatollah died in 89.
[00:28:58]  This is Khamenei, the guy we still have right now over there.
[00:29:01]  You know, perfectly reasonable guy for an Ayatollah.
[00:29:05]  And so instead, it's certainly not worse than the last guy for Israel in any way.
[00:29:12]  They were the ones who changed their policy first.
[00:29:13]  But anyway, so then when Rabin is shot and Perez comes in, Perez continues the anti-Iran policy.
[00:29:22]  And as part of it, he launches Operation Grapes of Wrath in southern Lebanon against Hezbollah.
[00:29:27]  And that's where they perpetrated the Khanna massacre and killed 108 women and children hiding in a United Nations shelter, which was what took up about a third of Osama bin Laden's first declaration of war against the United States, which appealed greatly to a young Egyptian engineering student studying in Hamburg named Ahmed Atta and his friend Ramzi bin al-Shib.
[00:29:50]  And Atta had written his last will and testament the day that Perez invaded Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath.
[00:29:58]  And then I think I forget if Kwana was two days later, something like that was the Khanna massacre.
[00:30:03]  And so then when Bin Laden put out his declaration of war a couple of months later, that was when these guys studying in Hamburg, Germany decided we want to go to Afghanistan and meet this bin Laden guy and join up his group and did.
[00:30:15]  And then bin al-Sheib is sitting in Guantanamo to this day.
[00:30:18]  Mohammed Atta crashed Flight 11 into the North Tower or the South Tower.
[00:30:22]  I forget which was which.
[00:30:24]  Anyway, so this does have its consequences for the Americans.
[00:30:28]  And look, it ain't like W. Bush said, listen, they hate us because we've been supporting Israel killing Lebanese.
[00:30:37]  And so some Saudis hired some Egyptians to crash a plane into the thing in New York.
[00:30:42]  You lost everybody's mom at that point.
[00:30:44]  You know, this is all my dad and my stepbrother Bill Clinton's fault.
[00:30:47]  Yeah, that's not going to work.
[00:30:48]  I'll tell you what, they hate us because we're good.
[00:30:51]  The better we are, the more they hate us.
[00:30:53]  Boy, we better start defending ourselves, right?
[00:30:55]  We better tone down this great.
[00:30:57]  That's right.
[00:30:57]  I mean, we better get rid of the Bill of Rights if they hate freedom so much.
[00:31:00]  Who's the guy, Michael Schormer?
[00:31:03]  Scheuer.
[00:31:03]  Scheuer.
[00:31:04]  He turned out to be a little bit of a kook.
[00:31:06]  A complete kook by now.
[00:31:08]  But he did make a really good point.
[00:31:10]  He was the CIA.
[00:31:12]  He was the head of the bin Laden unit in the CIA.
[00:31:15]  And he said at one point when he was testifying in front of Congress, where he goes, Look, if it's so important that we support Israel and that we're involved in this part of the world that it's worth 9-11 happening, he goes, okay.
[00:31:28]  Like, then let's just tell the American people that.
[00:31:31]  Like, let's just tell, you know, like, and which is, you got to say a fair argument.
[00:31:34]  You go, hey, if this is worth the costs, then okay.
[00:31:37]  But we got to say we're willing to pay these costs.
[00:31:40]  And he used to do that a lot too because he's a CIA analyst.
[00:31:43]  So he would go, sir, I don't have opinions or emotions or anything.
[00:31:47]  I'm just here to tell you the facts and you're the guy in charge of making the decisions.
[00:31:51]  And he would talk that way, whether he's talking to you and me, the American people, or whether he was talking to somebody in government.
[00:31:57]  Look, my job is just to tell you.
[00:31:59]  That's why they did it.
[00:32:00]  Okay.
[00:32:01]  You want to make the value judgment.
[00:32:02]  That's your job.
[00:32:03]  Yeah, like here's the intelligence.
[00:32:05]  The intelligence is this is why they did that.
[00:32:07]  Right.
[00:32:08]  Is this worth it to you or not?
[00:32:10]  There's trade-offs.
[00:32:10]  It's in the first book.
[00:32:11]  I have the quote from Eric Alterman from The Nation magazine saying the same thing that, look, man, everybody knows that the reason they did this is because of our support for Israel.
[00:32:18]  And I'm saying if that's the cost, damn it, then that's the price we have to pay.

=== Liberal Jewish Voting Patterns (08:48) ===

[00:32:22]  And I do think it's worth it.
[00:32:24]  But I also think we should be honest and let the American people know.
[00:32:28]  Well, which of course never happened, right?
[00:32:30]  The younger people never got that.
[00:32:32]  You retweeted.
[00:32:33]  And I do want to, you know, I want to.
[00:32:35]  We do got to talk about this.
[00:32:36]  And I'm going on ways to do it.
[00:32:37]  No, but we'll get into the more recent history in a second.
[00:32:40]  But I just did want to mention because it really, like, I'd never seen this before, but you tweeted the current Israeli defense minister, I guess is his position.
[00:32:52]  I don't know.
[00:32:52]  I don't remember.
[00:32:53]  Yes.
[00:32:54]  And this tweet was, this video that you tweeted was really like, even by some of the crazy admissions that I've heard from high-level Israeli government officials, he was saying basically that they had a policy to treat al-Qaeda members who had been wounded in Syria.
[00:33:17]  Oh, so that wasn't Gantz.
[00:33:17]  No, no, no.
[00:33:18]  That was somebody else from in the Obama years.
[00:33:21]  Right, right.
[00:33:22]  So this is, you know, this was back during the, you know, maybe like 2013, 2014, something like that.
[00:33:27]  And they were talking about the conflict in Syria and how they would provide medical aid to al-Qaeda fighters who were injured.
[00:33:33]  Again, no problem with that.
[00:33:35]  I think that's kind of the first worldy thing to do is, you know, if someone's injured and you can save their life, there's, you know, whatever.
[00:33:42]  But what explains this proximity?
[00:33:44]  Right, well, right, right.
[00:33:45]  All that stuff aside, which we've talked about a lot on the show.
[00:33:49]  But so he says, he goes, well, look, like, yeah, we do.
[00:33:52]  That's, you know, he goes, and they go, well, why do you do that?
[00:33:54]  And he goes, well, it's not for strategic reasons.
[00:33:56]  It's just humanitarian reasons.
[00:33:57]  You know, someone's hurt.
[00:33:58]  We're going to, we're going to give them medical care.
[00:34:00]  And then they go, would you do the same for Hezbollah?
[00:34:02]  And he goes, no.
[00:34:03]  And he's so serious.
[00:34:04]  No.
[00:34:04]  And he goes, well, why not?
[00:34:05]  And he goes, well, because we don't have that relationship with Hezbollah.
[00:34:08]  And then he goes, okay, so then it's not for humanitarian reasons.
[00:34:11]  It is strategic.
[00:34:12]  And they go, so why wouldn't you do it for Hezbollah?
[00:34:13]  And he goes, well, Hezbollah has attacked Israel.
[00:34:16]  Al-Qaeda has never attacked Israel.
[00:34:19]  And there is something as an American to watch that.
[00:34:22]  And you go, wait a minute, wait a minute.
[00:34:24]  So we have to give you billions of dollars, prop up your country.
[00:34:29]  If any Israeli dies, every politician over here has to be nothing but tears and pity.
[00:34:34]  We all have to care so much when Israel's attacked.
[00:34:38]  But you'll just sit there and go, Al-Qaeda never did nothing to us.
[00:34:41]  Like as a New Yorker, to sit there and hear that, you're like, oh, oh, so that's not a deal breaker for you.
[00:34:47]  Al-Qaeda's not a problem.
[00:34:49]  What?
[00:34:49]  Because they didn't attack you?
[00:34:51]  Well, they did kind of attack the country.
[00:34:53]  That's the reason you exist.
[00:34:55]  The reason by your own, you know, he could have just said Obama's doing the same thing at the same time.
[00:35:00]  What's the problem?
[00:35:02]  He said it was cool.
[00:35:03]  That would have been one thing, but it is amazing to see how much they value them being attacked.
[00:35:09]  But because you just, you sit there as an American and you look at that, you go, okay, well, then why shouldn't I just reverse this?
[00:35:15]  I don't give a shit about Hezbollah.
[00:35:16]  Because guess what?
[00:35:17]  They've never attacked my country.
[00:35:20]  Right.
[00:35:20]  They never did shit to us.
[00:35:22]  So why do I care?
[00:35:23]  Which is my take.
[00:35:24]  Exactly.
[00:35:25]  So, okay, fine, have that take.
[00:35:26]  But then we get to have this take too.
[00:35:28]  Right.
[00:35:28]  Absolutely right.
[00:35:29]  And so listen, before we get to the current crisis, because we do got to do that, but we've got to do this first, is this H.W. Bush, Bill-Clintonian peace process, of course, was just a ruse, right?
[00:35:42]  It never went anywhere, especially once Rabin was dead.
[00:35:46]  It was Perez and then Netanyahu and then Barack and then Olmert, oh, Sharon, and then Olmert, and then Netanyahu again.
[00:35:57]  And their policy this whole time has had nothing whatsoever to do with giving up the West Bank.
[00:36:03]  The whole policy is continue to establish facts on the ground while pretending that there's this peace process that's ever going to lead anywhere.
[00:36:14]  And I forgot who coined this the first time, but they say it's like negotiating over a pizza while one side is eating the thing.
[00:36:20]  Right, right.
[00:36:21]  And the other side, I don't even have a slice left here.
[00:36:25]  No, so what it is, is this, man, is your liberal Jewish friends in New York who support Israel support Israel on the condition that you guys are going to give up the West Bank like Rabin wanted one day, right?
[00:36:38]  You said you would.
[00:36:39]  You promised you would.
[00:36:40]  The two-state solution.
[00:36:41]  These people have to have independence, right?
[00:36:44]  But now that game is up, right?
[00:36:46]  It was, I think it was last summer where Netanyahu announced that he was going to announce the outright full de jure annexation of all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
[00:36:58]  And then he backed down and he didn't do that, but he might as well have.
[00:37:01]  And so this is what's now leading to the major crackup in liberal Zionism in America.
[00:37:06]  Because as you said, I don't know if you got on the percentages, but last I saw, American Jews vote liberal Democrat like 85, 90%, something like that.
[00:37:18]  They earn like wasps and vote like Puerto Ricans.
[00:37:21]  I forgot who coined that one, but I learned that a long time ago.
[00:37:24]  So, I mean, American Jews are into civil rights, man.
[00:37:28]  They were like, supported the civil rights movement in the 1960s and all that.
[00:37:33]  If they can do that to the blacks, they can do it to us, man.
[00:37:35]  We got a solidarity among victim groups here and this kind of deal.
[00:37:39]  And they really believe that stuff.
[00:37:42]  And so then you look at Palestine, Israel, Palestine, and it's like Mississippi in the 1950s before Brown versus Board of Education and the Civil Rights Act.
[00:37:52]  And you go, well, wait a minute.
[00:37:54]  When that was going on in America, the liberal Jews from the North came down to Mississippi as freedom riders to try to do something about it.
[00:38:02]  Now they're supposed to just sit there.
[00:38:04]  And now that the ruse of eventual independence is canceled, and now that even Netanyahu has said and been quoted numerous times saying from the river to the sea, there will always be only us, only our power, only our security force.
[00:38:19]  That means then, as you said, it's apartheid.
[00:38:23]  You can't pretend that you're Jewish democracy with your 80-20 super duper majority if in fact you're not even pretending to promise that you're giving independence to these people anymore.
[00:38:35]  Now that only leaves us with one solution, equal rights, total separation of church and state, and a democracy for everybody between the river and the sea, the one state solution that Palestinian activists have been pushing for all this time.
[00:38:49]  And listen, for people listening to this show who lean right, maybe who just, you know, this is a left-wing issue and for some weird reason we're taking the left-wing side of this or whatever.
[00:39:02]  Look at the fact that Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert both have called it apartheid.
[00:39:09]  Former Israeli prime ministers.
[00:39:11]  Right?
[00:39:12]  And Barak was the defense minister under Netanyahu when he first came into power in 2008.
[00:39:19]  Okay?
[00:39:20]  Or nine this time, his second term as prime minister, beginning of his second run as prime minister.
[00:39:26]  And they go, look, it's apartheid.
[00:39:29]  Either we got to give up the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem and let these people have independence, or we got to give them equal rights.
[00:39:37]  And see, and this is pretty ugly.
[00:39:40]  The truth is the liberal Jewish argument is not give them equal rights.
[00:39:45]  And I mean, the American one.
[00:39:46]  The American liberal Jewish argument is give them independence.
[00:39:50]  We want our ethnic state.
[00:39:52]  We want our 80-20 super duper majority liberal Zionist dream, Labor Party, Zionist dream.
[00:39:58]  And so in order to have that, we got to get rid of the Palestinians and we can't force march them like Andrew Jackson.
[00:40:05]  There's 6 million Palestinians.
[00:40:06]  What are you going to do with them all?
[00:40:08]  You can't push them all into the sea, march them all into the Sinai desert to die.
[00:40:12]  So give them independence so that we don't have to deal with them, right?
[00:40:16]  Like Abraham Lincoln wanting to send the slaves back to Africa or something like that, right?
[00:40:22]  That's pretty cynical and ugly, but it's better than the current situation where they have no rights whatsoever.
[00:40:28]  Yeah, much like Abraham Lincoln.
[00:40:29]  Exactly.
[00:40:29]  It's pretty messed up, but it's better than keeping them as slaves, right?
[00:40:33]  So well, I think that you're right about saying like the ruse is kind of up now.
[00:40:38]  This is really like it's very hard to.
[00:40:40]  One more thing about that.
[00:40:41]  Bet Salem, just two months ago, this is the most important human rights group in Israel put out a big report saying it's apartheid.
[00:40:51]  And Human Rights Watch, the most important humanitarian organization in the world who oftentimes run interference for the State Department, ginning up regime changes and things like that.
[00:41:00]  They are very cynical.
[00:41:02]  They're not pushing for regime change here.
[00:41:04]  This is the thing that they have been terrified to say and have refused to admit out loud for all these years.

=== Harry Com Shave Deal (03:09) ===

[00:41:11]  And they finally came out.
[00:41:12]  And boy, let me tell you, that thing is persuasive.
[00:41:14]  Read it.
[00:41:15]  It's right there on the interweb.
[00:41:16]  Everybody can look at the damn thing and it's ugly as it could be.
[00:41:19]  So two quick points that I want to make to add into this.
[00:41:23]  Number one, that I think that what kept the liberal Jewish American Democrats really firmly, like what prevented the cognitive dissidence of we're for civil rights and we're for the oppressed and all of this stuff, but not is that the narrative was like for someone in my mother's generation who's in her like in her mid-60s now, right?
[00:41:45]  The narrative forever was not the Jews versus the Palestinians.
[00:41:49]  It was the Jews versus the Muslims.
[00:41:51]  And when you have that narrative, it's much easier to keep, oh yeah, the Jews are just this little, you know, sliver.
[00:41:58]  And then there's all these millions of Muslims who would rip them limb from limb if they have the chance to.
[00:42:03]  But then that ruse came up little by little after Saudi Arabia and Egypt and Jordan and everybody's allies with Israel.
[00:42:11]  So you just don't have this like, there was no way to keep that going.
[00:42:15]  And then the narrative slipped, you know, as what it is, the Palestinians versus the Jews.
[00:42:19]  And so that's that card has kind of been pulled away from them.
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=== Right-Winger Sympathy Trap (15:54) ===

[00:44:20]  Oh, the other point that I wanted to make, sorry, unrelated to that, is just talking to right-wingers, right, who might be kind of quick to be triggered by this conversation and disagree with where we're coming from because they want to be sympathetic toward Israel.
[00:44:33]  It's like, look, I would just say it like this, right?
[00:44:36]  Just think about what you're reacting against.
[00:44:38]  And the idea that there's a whole bunch of left-wingers who are sympathetic to Palestinian rights, pro-Palestinian.
[00:44:47]  It's like, that is true.
[00:44:49]  There are a whole bunch of left-wingers who are like that.
[00:44:51]  However, you know, AOC, people like that, AOC is for Palestinian rights the same way that the same way that Lindsey Graham is for small government.
[00:45:04]  Right.
[00:45:05]  You know what I mean?
[00:45:06]  Like it's completely just in rhetoric.
[00:45:08]  And meanwhile, look at Joe Biden.
[00:45:10]  Joe Biden is Israel's servant.
[00:45:11]  React against that.
[00:45:13]  Every Democratic president has been nothing but Israel's servant.
[00:45:16]  By the way, the entire national security apparatus that has now decided the big enemy, by the way, is not Iran anymore.
[00:45:25]  It's not Iraq anymore.
[00:45:26]  It's not it.
[00:45:27]  It's right-wingers in America.
[00:45:29]  Right?
[00:45:30]  They've decided right-wingers in America.
[00:45:31]  Those same guys all worship Israel.
[00:45:34]  Like, they cannot question Israel in complete lockstep with them and their policies.
[00:45:39]  So I'm just saying, if you want to react against everything, you know, it doesn't, you don't have to just be reactionary against the Nation magazine because the Nation magazine isn't going to be coming and rounding up right-wingers in this country anytime soon.
[00:45:50]  But you know who's actually openly talking about that is like, you know, the former head of the CIA.
[00:45:58]  He is actually talking about how we might need to start really targeting right-wingers in this country because they're basically an insurgency, right?
[00:46:05]  Like they're so.
[00:46:06]  You guys like wars on terrorism, don't you?
[00:46:08]  What's the problem?
[00:46:09]  Yeah.
[00:46:10]  Right.
[00:46:10]  So listen, there's a neighborhood in well, in the 48 war, the Israelis took West Jerusalem.
[00:46:19]  Okay.
[00:46:20]  Now you hear him say Gaza Strip, West Bank, and East Jerusalem is where the Palestinians live, right?
[00:46:26]  Now, under the Jerry Kushner plan, the deal was, and Trump recognized and moved the embassy to Jerusalem.
[00:46:35]  Now, I don't know about H.W. Bush, but I know Bill Clinton and George Bush and Barack Obama all three promised to move the American embassy to Jerusalem and then never did it because they wouldn't dare.
[00:46:47]  But they like to say that because that makes people in America happy for political reasons.
[00:46:51]  But Donald Trump's like, I don't care.
[00:46:53]  Sheldon Adelson wants me to do it.
[00:46:54]  Sir, yes, sir, sir.
[00:46:56]  And so he goes and he recognizes as Donald Trump so tough that he'll roll right over.
[00:47:02]  Oh, yeah.
[00:47:03]  And for Sheldon Adelson, for God's sake.
[00:47:06]  Anyway.
[00:47:07]  I love that.
[00:47:07]  I think you said that about Obama or you said that about Trump.
[00:47:09]  It is one of my favorite lines ever.
[00:47:12]  You said, in order to look tough, they'll roll over.
[00:47:15]  And that's what it always comes down to.
[00:47:17]  Whatever the generals say, I got to do to look at it.
[00:47:18]  Because otherwise, I won't look tough.
[00:47:20]  So there's something that's so hilariously, like, ironically paradoxical about that, right?
[00:47:25]  Like, so in order to look tough, I have to be a bitch.
[00:47:29]  That's what you have to do.
[00:47:31]  And that's the main example there for both of them is Afghanistan.
[00:47:35]  Yeah.
[00:47:35]  Right.
[00:47:35]  Where we're going to call you a wimp if you don't do this.
[00:47:38]  Well, what's tougher than beating up a general?
[00:47:41]  Yeah, it goes, well, you're going to call me a wimp.
[00:47:43]  Well, how about I give you my wallet?
[00:47:45]  Yeah, seriously.
[00:47:46]  All right.
[00:47:46]  Yeah, man.
[00:47:49]  All right.
[00:47:49]  And so many people died.
[00:47:51]  I'm sorry.
[00:47:51]  I started going on a tangent about how many people Barack Obama killed in Afghanistan with that.
[00:47:56]  And Trump, too.
[00:47:57]  You know, Trump, he only escalated about 10,000 men, some Marines, some Green Berets, but he escalated the air war in Afghanistan so badly.
[00:48:05]  I mean, they killed probably 20,000, 30,000 people in four years.
[00:48:09]  Just anyway.
[00:48:11]  Okay, so Trump actually does it and moves the embassy.
[00:48:13]  He moves the embassy.
[00:48:14]  Now, what this and then according to the Kushner plan, oh, yeah, you guys, your capital for your little Palestinian pseudo-type thing that you might ever get one day, that's not going to be in East Jerusalem anymore.
[00:48:26]  Now it's going to have to be in, I forgot what it's called.
[00:48:28]  It's this little suburb neighborhood outside, east of East Jerusalem.
[00:48:33]  And so you're not going to be able to have the east side of the city.
[00:48:36]  And then eventually it's going to be 100% Jewish city.
[00:48:39]  And they're going to essentially cleanse it, establish facts on the ground slowly but surely, which is, of course, not just an affront to property owners there and families whose roots go way back and all that, but it's obviously a major threat to the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
[00:48:58]  And there's a threat that Jewish extremists would destroy it and try to rebuild the third temple and start sacrificing animals and start the Third World War.
[00:49:07]  So instead of that, hey, maybe let's not do that.
[00:49:10]  You know, well, the mayor of Jerusalem, West Jerusalem, I guess, is, or maybe all of it, is like a hardcore right-winger, like two clicks to the right of Netanyahu, even.
[00:49:23]  And they have all these court cases are going through where, you know, it's always, of course, cake and eat it too, double-standard things that don't make any sense at all.
[00:49:33]  So they're saying that these Palestinian families in this neighborhood called Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem, they're living on land that used to belong to Jews back in the 19th century.
[00:49:45]  And so now you have to get off because they're the rightful heirs.
[00:49:48]  Well, guess what?
[00:49:49]  That doesn't work the other way, does it?
[00:49:51]  Right.
[00:49:51]  No.
[00:49:52]  No Palestinians had the right to return to their homes anywhere in Israel or even in East Jerusalem.
[00:49:57]  Like if you go, like Gazans or West Bank Palestinians, if they travel to Europe, a lot of times they're not allowed to come home again.
[00:50:08]  You know, even to the West Bank where they've been purged too, even back home to their Gaza Strip refugee camp.
[00:50:14]  They don't even have a right to return to Palestine.
[00:50:17]  To what's even left of the occupied territories there.
[00:50:21]  So they're, you know, under the color of law, essentially, they're cleansing this neighborhood, Sheikh Jara.
[00:50:30]  And, you know, I didn't retweet this.
[00:50:33]  I didn't retweet this because what the person had wrote, the video, because what the person had written was, I forgot what, but it wasn't accurate enough.
[00:50:41]  But the video was incredible of this Israeli settler going, well, what we're doing is we're cleansing the land of all of the Arabs.
[00:50:49]  And we have to do it one house at a time, a block by block.
[00:50:52]  But all that you see here, this will all be Jewish.
[00:50:55]  And we are taking all of it and we're kicking them out.
[00:50:58]  And what is just as explicit as could be.
[00:51:00]  And there's been a couple viral clips on Twitter that people have seen probably going around where this Palestinian woman is yelling at a guy named Jacob, who's obviously from Brooklyn, New York.
[00:51:11]  And she's saying, Jacob, it's my house.
[00:51:13]  It's not fair.
[00:51:14]  What are you doing?
[00:51:15]  You can't steal it.
[00:51:15]  And he says, Well, I don't know what your problem is.
[00:51:18]  If I didn't steal it, somebody else would.
[00:51:20]  And she goes, Well, nobody can steal it.
[00:51:22]  And he's like, Yeah, leave me alone.
[00:51:24]  He's like, This big fat guy from New York, he's got the right of return, right?
[00:51:29]  This guy from Brooklyn, New York has the right of return, not the people who actually are from there.
[00:51:34]  And then I read this article.
[00:51:35]  Oh, it's at MondoWeiss.net, had an excellent article on the background of the crisis in Sheikh Jara and the neighborhood here.
[00:51:42]  That family from Brooklyn occupied half of this Palestinian family's house, like when they were away at work one day in 2009 and just put up wallboard in the middle of the house and took and occupied half the house.
[00:51:55]  They've been living in it ever since.
[00:51:57]  Jeez.
[00:51:57]  And been harassed.
[00:51:58]  I mean, this is kind of, it's absolutely unreal, this stuff.
[00:52:01]  And so now they've come and they're taking the rest of it.
[00:52:03]  And they just take the Palestinian stuff, throw it out on the street, and just squat and move right into their house.
[00:52:08]  And, you know, as Max Blumenthal said on my show, and he's done original journalism from there too, that these Palestinians to these particular, this particular sect of Jews anyway, they're nothing but animals.
[00:52:21]  They got no rights whatsoever.
[00:52:23]  It's like kicking livestock out of a barn to them.
[00:52:26]  It's pretty disturbing.
[00:52:27]  He's done, he's got like videos where he goes around interviewing people and stuff.
[00:52:31]  Oh, you read his book, Goliath.
[00:52:33]  Man, it's unprecedented.
[00:52:34]  But there's something about the videos, dude.
[00:52:36]  Yeah.
[00:52:36]  Seeing people say it so nonchalantly.
[00:52:39]  I mean, really just talking about other people about their animals.
[00:52:43]  Abby Martin posted one last night where she was in Jerusalem.
[00:52:46]  I think it was.
[00:52:47]  And they're saying, yeah, carpet bomb them all, kill them all.
[00:52:50]  It belongs to us, whatever.
[00:52:52]  And look, to be fair, I really do.
[00:52:54]  There's a lot.
[00:52:56]  Because I don't want to be misleading with this.
[00:52:57]  And that was my concern when I saw that Abby Martin video: it almost like creates this image that that's the Jewish perspective.
[00:53:04]  And it's not.
[00:53:06]  There are a lot of very liberal Jews in all, all over the world, in New York, LA, and Israel.
[00:53:12]  The three places where there are Jews who really do sympathize with the Palestinians.
[00:53:17]  It's a small minority in Israel.
[00:53:19]  It really is.
[00:53:20]  And you know what?
[00:53:21]  I interviewed Blumenthal 10 years ago when he was riding Goliath.
[00:53:25]  And I remember him just being exasperated.
[00:53:29]  You know, which I interviewed him for an hour yesterday.
[00:53:32]  It'll play on Sunday.
[00:53:33]  And it's...
[00:53:35]  Well, I'll put the link to that in this episode description.
[00:53:40]  He's a leftist, so that's his point of view.
[00:53:42]  But the way he says, he's like, look, man, the Labor Party is basically Dick Cheney.
[00:53:48]  And everyone else in Israel, the entire political spectrum in Israel, is to the right of that.
[00:53:53]  There is no left-wing counterbalance at all.
[00:53:55]  The Labor Party is essentially dead.
[00:53:57]  There's, you know, Amir Haas and Gideon Levy in Haaretz, two writers in Haaretz.
[00:54:04]  There's Bet Salem, Human Rights Group.
[00:54:07]  And that's it.
[00:54:07]  The Labor Party is essentially dead.
[00:54:10]  And the Labor Party was Ehud Barak anyway, the guy who pretended, you know, the deal.
[00:54:14]  This was one we skipped.
[00:54:16]  Oh, we offered to give them a Palestinian state in the year 2000 and Arafat refused to accept it.
[00:54:21]  Really, huh?
[00:54:22]  Arafat, who recognized Israel back in 1988, refused to accept the rulership of his own sovereign nation, huh?
[00:54:30]  What an irrational guy that is, or what a line of crap that is.
[00:54:36]  And in fact, it's one of Biden's guys now, Robert Malley, worked for Bill Clinton at the time and wrote a giant thing for the New York Review of Books about how that is so not true.
[00:54:45]  Bill Clinton, you know, his whole group, well, they called good old, what's his name?
[00:54:54]  They called him Israel's lawyer, was Bill Clinton's guy.
[00:54:57]  You know, so it was two against one in the negotiation, and they gave Arafat a deal he couldn't possibly accept.
[00:55:04]  Yeah.
[00:55:04]  And then they went, oh, he refused to accept the offer.
[00:55:06]  Yeah, this is always the day.
[00:55:08]  They do that all the time.
[00:55:08]  It's the Dennis Prager line.
[00:55:10]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:55:11]  We've offered them their own state all of these times.
[00:55:14]  First off, I mean, there's two.
[00:55:15]  Number one, you could just kind of think this through logically, like exactly like you just said.
[00:55:19]  Who is turning down being the ruler of their own sovereign state rather than being like this in this incredibly weakened state where you're trying to negotiate from a place of weakness and all of this?
[00:55:32]  Like, no, that just doesn't pass the sniff test.
[00:55:35]  But on top of that, it's always like, no, if you actually go look through any of these things, it's never as simple as that.
[00:55:41]  And I want to get into the current crisis, but just to say, if you want to go look through any of the offers that have been made, no, it's never been, you know, it's like when they say like NAFTA is for free trade.
[00:55:50]  And you're like, well, if it really was for free trade, it could be six sentences long.
[00:55:54]  Like really just could be like, we will impose no tariff or barrier on any other trade and any business can trade with whoever they want to.
[00:56:01]  Free trade bill.
[00:56:02]  Why is it 2,000 pages long?
[00:56:04]  If it's 2,000, now again, if you were just offering them, these peace deals could literally be on one sheet of paper.
[00:56:10]  But that's never what they are.
[00:56:12]  There's always tons of caveats and deals, and they offer you things that you could never accept.
[00:56:16]  And so, okay, let's get into the current crisis.
[00:56:20]  And importantly, even on that one more thing there.
[00:56:22]  Again, Arafat and the PLO literally recognized Israel on 67 borders in 1988 when it was still Hawk versus Hassoi, right?
[00:56:34]  Okay.
[00:56:36]  Hamas has said, and they are the epitome, the argument ad absurdum of the far-right religious armed faction.
[00:56:45]  They certainly have been guilty of committing terrorist attacks against civilians in the past and so forth.
[00:56:50]  And they have also said that they would recognize Israel as part of a final status negotiation, but that obviously we're not saying, give us back Jaffa.
[00:57:02]  We know we can't have it.
[00:57:03]  We're willing to settle for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, but you got to let us have it.
[00:57:07]  I'm not going to say okay until you say okay, but still, same difference.
[00:57:12]  Which imagine for them being the hardcore right-wing terrorist group and all this shit.
[00:57:17]  What a like unbelievable, you know, conceit that they're like, can we just have this?
[00:57:24]  But it's actually ours.
[00:57:25]  And by the way, the Iranians have said the same thing.
[00:57:27]  The Iranians are like, what?
[00:57:28]  I'm supposed to be more Catholic than the Pope?
[00:57:30]  If the Palestinians are willing to settle for 22%, who am I to say no to that?
[00:57:35]  And by the way, I'm sorry, I got to say this too.
[00:57:36]  It's a tangent, but it's so important.
[00:57:38]  Israel helped create Hamas in the first place.
[00:57:41]  And again, Jeremy R. Hammond, his book, Obstacle to Peace, has all this.
[00:57:46]  But Richard Sale, the journalist Richard Sale, has written about this.
[00:57:51]  And I think Seymour Hirsch.
[00:57:54]  I forget off the top of my head.
[00:57:55]  But people can read all about this.
[00:57:57]  And people often say Israel created Hamas.
[00:57:59]  It's not that simple.
[00:58:00]  It was Sheikh Yassin and his people did it.
[00:58:02]  But the Israelis deliberately let them grow while persecuting and oppressing everyone else.
[00:58:09]  So they do a mass sweep and round up all the PLO guys and leave the Hamas guys out there.
[00:58:14]  And, you know, I think they helped finance them and the rest of that too.
[00:58:18]  And for the simple reason, divide and conquer.
[00:58:20]  Create a right-wing religious alternative to the secular commie-leaning PLO.
[00:58:25]  They weren't exactly secular commie, but they were somewhat leftist and the PFLP and all that Popular Liberation Front and all that.
[00:58:32]  And so just divide and conquer.
[00:58:33]  And they helped to succor the rise of Hamas in the first place.
[00:58:40]  And then I got to say too, man, sorry, Dave.
[00:58:42]  No, it's okay.
[00:58:42]  I got these tangents.
[00:58:43]  They're in my head.
[00:58:43]  No, they're all so great.
[00:58:45]  When Ariel Sharon murdered Sheikh Yassin in the year 2004, that's what caused the riot in Fallujah, where the Blackwater guards were hanged from the bridge.
[00:58:55]  And then George W. Bush sent James Madison, the Marines, to kill hundreds and hundreds of civilians in the giant Battle of Fallujah in the spring of 2004 that really touched off the Sunni-based insurgency in Iraq War II.
[00:59:09]  It was all because of the Israelis murdering an old man in a wheelchair with a cruise missile.
[00:59:14]  Anyway, these things are sticky.
[00:59:17]  Yeah, man.
[00:59:17]  So listen, they're doing this ethnic cleansing campaign in East Jerusalem.
[00:59:23]  Then on the last day of Ramadan, Netanyahu sent the security forces to attack the people praying at the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
[00:59:31]  And, you know, I don't know who threw the first rock or who shot the first stun grenade or what.
[00:59:37]  Maybe a Palestinian threw a rock first, but it was a massive security force provocation in the first place.
[00:59:43]  And then the next day they did it again.
[00:59:45]  This was one week ago, last Friday.
[00:59:47]  And then the next day on Saturday, they did it again.
[00:59:49]  They injured 300 people, a bunch of women praying in there.
[00:59:52]  And they go in there with flashbang grenades and smoke bombs and rubber bullets and this kind of thing.
[00:59:58]  And 300 people were wounded in the deal.
[01:00:01]  And Hamas then issued a warning and said, if you don't get your forces off of the Dome of the Rock or the Alexa Mosque compound by this time tonight, we're going to shoot some rockets at your ass.

=== Defending Palestinian Rights (06:44) ===

[01:00:14]  And so then that was what happened.
[01:00:16]  And then so it was, I think it was last Sunday night, Monday morning, or maybe it was Monday night, Tuesday morning was when Hamas started firing the rockets.
[01:00:26]  But this is, you know, step four on the chain of events here.
[01:00:29]  It is not the beginning of this thing.
[01:00:31]  And then, you know, it's understandable that Americans, this is the line from, I better get this right in my speech tonight.
[01:00:38]  This is the line that Robert Higgs used about World War II and Franklin Roosevelt.
[01:00:42]  Whenever they tell the history of the story, they always truncate the antecedents.
[01:00:48]  Right.
[01:00:48]  Right.
[01:00:48]  In other words, yeah, you know what?
[01:00:50]  Japan attacked us and then we had to kick their ass.
[01:00:53]  Yeah, well, also other stuff happened before that that you might need to know about.
[01:00:58]  And so it's the same thing here where they go, look, what would you do if Hamas was firing rockets at you?
[01:01:04]  Nothing.
[01:01:05]  And it's just, look, if you show up at a fist fight and you don't know who swung first, do you just pick like the guy with the closest skin color to yours?
[01:01:15]  Or are you not willing to admit to yourself that you don't know?
[01:01:18]  Actually, I just got here and I don't know who hit first.
[01:01:20]  And that is possible.
[01:01:22]  And that the fact that like, look, there could be somebody who lives like in a, you know, has a real good job, has a real nice family, has, you know, has like, lives a life similar to the life that you live and has the same skin color as you.
[01:01:39]  And there could be somebody who's like, has a different skin color than you and lives in like a fucking shack and has a very different culture than you.
[01:01:46]  And you'd probably be a lot more judgmental about the way they run their life.
[01:01:50]  But it's still also possible that the first guy starts a fight with the second guy.
[01:01:54]  Of course.
[01:01:54]  That is still a possible thing.
[01:01:56]  Of course.
[01:01:56]  Even though you could be like, no, even though this guy's more similar to me and this is a whole different world, that that could be the case.
[01:02:02]  And if you objectively look at it.
[01:02:04]  Man, by the way, 60% of the Israeli Jews look just like Arabs.
[01:02:08]  Did you know that?
[01:02:09]  It's only the ruling caste of the 20% of the top are the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe.
[01:02:14]  Well, that's right.
[01:02:15]  Okay.
[01:02:15]  So if you want to be a big bigot about it and pick the brown side, how about the Palestinian Christians?
[01:02:20]  If an Arab is a Christian, is he half a human then?
[01:02:24]  Do you care about him at all if he prays to the same Jesus on Christmas as you?
[01:02:27]  Well, I just look, I look at it like, you know, it's as if, I don't know, in some analogy, like, you know, the pre-Israeli relationship with the Muslims in, you know, Palestine, you know, whatever, predating, you know, the creation of Israel is almost like, it's like if I'm the Jew and you, which I am, and I rent a room out in your house and I rent a room there, and you got like a nice big house and you rent me a room and we're kind of like getting along fine.
[01:02:55]  Like I'm renting a room there.
[01:02:56]  And there's, and then it's kind of like some outside body decides, we're actually going to split this whole house 50-50.
[01:03:03]  And you're like, excuse me?
[01:03:05]  Like, what?
[01:03:05]  No, that's not.
[01:03:06]  And then, you know, I invite my whole family in and they start moving your family down to like half the house and half the house, moving them down.
[01:03:13]  And before you know it, I'm in the basement.
[01:03:14]  Yeah, you're like, you can now live in your garage with your family.
[01:03:18]  And actually, now I'm going to raid into your garage and check that everything's going the right way.
[01:03:21]  And then you'd be like, can you believe Scott tried to throw a punch at me when I came into his garage the other day?
[01:03:27]  Did he give you permission to come in the garage?
[01:03:29]  Like, no, no, but I just, I reserve the right to come into the garage whenever I want to, even though that's his.
[01:03:33]  And like, I mean, you know, at that point.
[01:03:36]  So not just in the fist fight analogy, but you have to have some context here where this is not just a fight that came out of nowhere.
[01:03:42]  This is a fight from people who have been pushed into the garage of this region.
[01:03:46]  And if we're living in that we care about property rights, they had, you know, the majority claim of this land.
[01:03:53]  And like you said, they've already kind of given up on all of that and are like, can we just have Gaza and the West Bank?
[01:03:58]  Can we just at least have that be ours?
[01:04:00]  But the truth is, from the libertarian starting point, the UN had no right to even initially give the Jews that much of the property that they didn't own.
[01:04:09]  Right.
[01:04:09]  This is what they did the British.
[01:04:11]  Yeah, that's right.
[01:04:12]  Yeah, none of them did.
[01:04:14]  And yeah, and look, and frankly, under the law, it's the Palestinians who have the right to defend themselves.
[01:04:22]  Oh, don't the Israelis have the right to defend themselves?
[01:04:24]  Don't the Israelis.
[01:04:25]  You see how that's just begging the question.
[01:04:27]  People always say begging the question when they mean raising the question.
[01:04:30]  Begging the question is when you assume the conclusion is your premise.
[01:04:36]  Don't they have the right to defend themselves?
[01:04:37]  Yes, of course they do.
[01:04:39]  But that's not what they're doing.
[01:04:41]  They are initiating acts of aggression against helpless captives in a canned hunt.
[01:04:47]  Well, I guess.
[01:04:47]  So that doesn't have a damn thing to do with self-defense at all, does it?
[01:04:51]  And it's really the same, which it's like the same old, you know, I mean, it's all so basic, right?
[01:04:57]  But it's the same old thing that Ron Paul used to drive the point home all the time.
[01:05:01]  And it's just like, it's such a like obvious second grade level truth.
[01:05:06]  It goes, so what if the shoe was on the other foot?
[01:05:08]  That's right.
[01:05:09]  Like that's all you got to do.
[01:05:10]  Oh, and the answer is we'd invade immediately.
[01:05:12]  I mean, what would happen if, let's say, Hamas started just running into Israeli territory?
[01:05:18]  I mean, they could get in, but let's just start running into Israeli territory and pointing guns at Jews and screaming curfew.
[01:05:25]  And some Jew just mowed them down.
[01:05:28]  You'd sit there and I'd sit there and go, yeah, you're goddamn right.
[01:05:32]  You can't do that.
[01:05:34]  You can't just run up to people and point guns at them and scream curfew.
[01:05:37]  Well, and switch the whole situation.
[01:05:38]  How about the Palestinians won all the wars and herded the Israelis into the Gaza concentration camp, Warsaw ghetto equivalent there?
[01:05:47]  What would America do about that?
[01:05:48]  What would America and the West do?
[01:05:50]  They wouldn't let that stand for a day.
[01:05:52]  But we'll let this stand for 54 years.
[01:05:54]  And listen, if they did, if the West did let it stand and they supported the Palestinians herding the Jews into this little territory of land and terrorizing them and depraving them of basic food and medicine and all this shit.
[01:06:06]  Kidnapping their children out of their beds in the middle of the day.
[01:06:07]  And then if they were doing this, me and you would be sitting here defending the rights of the Jews and talking about how horrible it is that people are doing this to the Jewish people.
[01:06:16]  And that to me is like the essence of the libertarian position is that we stand up for the people whose rights are being violated.
[01:06:23]  Period.
[01:06:24]  Exactly.
[01:06:24]  And look, partisanship is the mind killer, man.
[01:06:27]  You know, oh, this is a left-right issue.
[01:06:29]  If you're not a leftist, then you have to hate Palestinians.
[01:06:33]  Is that the law?
[01:06:34]  That's completely stupid.
[01:06:35]  You know, and there's been a long tradition of conservative and right-wing support for the Palestinians.
[01:06:41]  I was talking about this with Phil Weiss on the show yesterday that Regnery Publishing put out a book called What Cost Israel.
[01:06:47]  And it was all about the plight of the poor Palestinians.
[01:06:50]  What are we doing?
[01:06:50]  You know, Regrey, they're known as the conservative publishing house.
[01:06:53]  And, you know, there were a lot of the old conservatives took that position.

=== Partisanship as Mind Killer (03:23) ===

[01:06:59]  And then, I don't know.
[01:07:00]  Pat Buchanan might not be the best example, but look at Justin Raimondo and all of his career, and look at Daniel Larison, formerly at the American Conservative magazine and now writing for us at antiwar.com.
[01:07:14]  There's just, you know, he's a right-winger, but he's not a Republican partisan.
[01:07:18]  Yeah.
[01:07:19]  And he's just being fair about this.
[01:07:21]  And look, Larison is an extremely reasonable guy, too.
[01:07:25]  He doesn't argue like I argue.
[01:07:27]  Go and read what he writes.
[01:07:28]  You can't argue with it.
[01:07:29]  And again, even if you're just saying, like, oh, it's a left-wing issue, like, it's really only the good leftists who are good ones.
[01:07:35]  That's right.
[01:07:35]  Yeah, the liberals are normal on it.
[01:07:37]  They're horrible on it.
[01:07:38]  And again, it's just, again, like, I think it's a fair analogy just that right-wingers will get.
[01:07:43]  Like, Bernie Sanders and AOC are pro-Palestinian in the way that Paul Ryan was a small government objectivist.
[01:07:52]  You know what I mean?
[01:07:53]  In fact, Greenwald had a great piece trashing AOC because she took her brave stand against Andrew Yang, who has no power, who's just a candidate for mayor of New York, who won't even have any power.
[01:08:06]  But he said something and she went after him on Twitter.
[01:08:09]  Oh, she's so tough.
[01:08:10]  But meanwhile, she wouldn't say a word against Nancy Pelosi.
[01:08:14]  Joe Biden, Speaker of the House, and Joe Biden, the president.
[01:08:17]  Who's been saying wrong?
[01:08:19]  Joe Biden's been saying wrong.
[01:08:20]  Did I tell you I finally heard her voice?
[01:08:22]  I apparently had never heard her voice for like a year.
[01:08:24]  Yeah, I just quit watching TV.
[01:08:26]  Once Hillary Clinton started right for president again, I just turned the TV off.
[01:08:29]  I don't even watch The Simpsons or family guy anymore.
[01:08:31]  Nothing at all.
[01:08:33]  But I didn't know that I hadn't heard her voice.
[01:08:37]  And I clicked play on some video on the internet and I heard her talking and I was just like, oh my God, she sounds like a little kid.
[01:08:43]  She just sounds literally stupid.
[01:08:45]  It's just, ugh.
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=== Ruthless Campaign Tactics (15:56) ===

[01:10:22]  Anyway, wait, one more thing before we go here.
[01:10:24]  Okay.
[01:10:24]  They killed already over 100 people, and I've been flying around all day.
[01:10:27]  So all I know is the numbers from last night was 27 children had been killed.
[01:10:31]  And if you look on my Twitter feed, you can see pictures of their burnt corpses, some of them.
[01:10:36]  And more than 100 people have been killed in Gaza.
[01:10:39]  They're destroying apartment buildings.
[01:10:42]  They blew up the high-rise that houses all the international media in Gaza.
[01:10:47]  And, you know, one of these towers, they bombed it, and it had a cell phone tower on the top.
[01:10:53]  Right.
[01:10:54]  And as the thing comes down, like, what does that look like?
[01:10:58]  What does that remind you of?
[01:11:01]  And then, and, you know, I mentioned this to Max Blumenthal.
[01:11:03]  And it was, it was right.
[01:11:05]  It was just like a 9-11 style.
[01:11:06]  Like, you know.
[01:11:07]  Yeah, the way the way it felt because they hit it at the bottom and the way it collapsed.
[01:11:11]  It didn't look exactly like it, but pretty reminiscent.
[01:11:13]  And then also you have these riots going on inside so-called Israel proper against the 20% Arab minority where they're going around, Dave, breaking store windows and rioting and beating Arabs up, breaking into their houses, dragging them out and kicking their ass.
[01:11:29]  Like, guys, what are you doing with the historical analogies here?
[01:11:32]  Are you crazy?
[01:11:34]  What are you doing?
[01:11:34]  And I mentioned that to Blumenthal and he goes, dude, this is all on purpose.
[01:11:38]  You know, they, I'm almost certain.
[01:11:40]  I interviewed a lot of guys about this yesterday.
[01:11:42]  I'm almost certain it was Blumenthal.
[01:11:44]  Look, they know that that looks like September 11th.
[01:11:47]  They know what reaction that got out of the American people, how demoralizing that was to get hit like that.
[01:11:53]  And that's why they're doing it to the Palestinians.
[01:11:56]  They're trying to break them.
[01:11:57]  They have what they call the Dahia doctrine, which is named after a neighborhood in Lebanon that they leveled the entire neighborhood.
[01:12:04]  And their story is of a doctrine of collective punishment.
[01:12:09]  If Hamas is in your neighborhood, it's your fault.
[01:12:11]  We take out your whole neighborhood.
[01:12:13]  And they haven't gone that far in this round yet, but they did that in 2014 and in 2012.
[01:12:18]  They're just merciless.
[01:12:19]  They killed 500 and something children last time in 2014.
[01:12:22]  Did you ever see this video?
[01:12:24]  And I don't know.
[01:12:25]  I can't remember the guy's name on it.
[01:12:26]  By the way, one of my listeners will send me this video and I'll throw it in the links.
[01:12:30]  I'll throw your episode with Max Blumenthal and then I'll put this in the episode description as well.
[01:12:34]  If someone has to send it to me, though, because someone will know what I'm talking about.
[01:12:37]  But there's this video of a former Israeli soldier and he's telling his story.
[01:12:43]  And this is why he left.
[01:12:44]  And he's like a pro-Palestinian, you know, pro-Palestinian rights activist now.
[01:12:48]  And he was telling the story about being in the military, which everyone in Israel serves in the military.
[01:12:53]  And he's telling this story.
[01:12:55]  And he starts the story by talking about his grandmother was a Holocaust survivor and like was in a concentration camp for years.
[01:13:02]  Her whole family got killed.
[01:13:03]  Real horrible story.
[01:13:04]  And he talks about she used to wake up with nightmares.
[01:13:08]  He used to hear her as a little boy, like screaming in the night with nightmares.
[01:13:12]  Like real awful thing to be a little boy and hear your grandmother screaming.
[01:13:16]  And always kind of grew up knowing this was the history of why grandma was so tortured for her whole life.
[01:13:23]  And so he talks about this story where they go in for this night raid of one of the occupied territories, I can't recall.
[01:13:31]  And his buddy accidentally kills a kid.
[01:13:35]  Like they're in a night raid and it's dark and they're on some mission there and his buddy's in the military with him and they see like a shadow coming at him and it's after curfew and they're not supposed to be out.
[01:13:46]  And he thinks he's coming at him and he shoots him and then they realize it's like an eight-year-old kid and his buddy's all torn up over this and he's real, you know, like real disturbed, like oh my god, I killed a kid and this is awful, and he goes that uh, the the next day they're having a funeral for this kid but they like were ordered to shut it down.
[01:14:04]  Um, because they're like, whatever there was some, it was in in the middle of one of these campaigns of where there's hostilities are High.
[01:14:10]  So they're like, everyone has to be curfew.
[01:14:12]  You have to be home.
[01:14:13]  So they go to shut it down.
[01:14:15]  And he realizes that this is the funeral for the kid who his friend killed the other day.
[01:14:21]  Like they didn't realize at first, but they're like, oh man, this is the block and this is the guy.
[01:14:25]  This is for the kid.
[01:14:26]  And the father of the kid comes out and attacks one of the Israeli soldiers, like pushes them or hits him or something like that, which you can't do.
[01:14:35]  So as soon as they do that, they arrest the father.
[01:14:37]  So now they're dragging him out.
[01:14:39]  And he said, their grandmother in this house just comes out cursing and wailing at them.
[01:14:45]  And he tells the story.
[01:14:46]  He's like crying as he tells the story.
[01:14:48]  And he goes, That was the same wailing that my grandmother did.
[01:14:51]  It's like the same exact sound.
[01:14:53]  Of course.
[01:14:53]  And it's like, even though I'm saying it, I'm getting like emotional saying it, but it's like, that's the same.
[01:14:57]  It's like your, how can you not see this?
[01:14:59]  How can this be your story and not see that you're doing the same thing to these people?
[01:15:04]  Look, the Israeli occupation of the Palestinians is absolutely ruthless.
[01:15:10]  You know, it's just like you're saying, hey, somebody could be your friend and still start a fight.
[01:15:16]  Yeah.
[01:15:16]  Somebody could be, somebody could look just like you and be in the wrong.
[01:15:20]  And, you know, hell.
[01:15:23]  I mean, you decide which tail is wagging which dog, but aren't Israel and America perfect mirror images of each other at this point in their little cruel empire and our globe spanning one that uses them as a cog as part of it?
[01:15:40]  I mean, yeah, we use them and they use us.
[01:15:42]  You know, it's kind of this like weird relationship.
[01:15:45]  Absolutely right.
[01:15:45]  And look, I mean, that little aside about Trump.
[01:15:50]  Trump rolled over for James Mattis and H.R. McMaster and ordered an escalation in Afghanistan, an air escalation especially.
[01:16:01]  And he did try to negotiate a deal and whatever, but I think he ever even thought about that air war for another moment of his life after that.
[01:16:08]  There are tens of thousands of people being bombed to death on the ground there.
[01:16:12]  Yeah.
[01:16:13]  And it's just, well, look, we're the good guys and it's unfortunate.
[01:16:19]  And yeah, we should wrap it up as soon as we can and whatever.
[01:16:22]  But it's hard to say, like, no, that is evil, ruthless, murderous imperial tyranny.
[01:16:28]  If it was another country in the world, we wouldn't have any problem understanding it for what it is.
[01:16:34]  When it was the Soviets doing it to the Afghans, you think we said, yeah, well, you know, those are the breaks.
[01:16:40]  Sometimes a bomb drops on your head, or this is the worst thing.
[01:16:43]  This proves what ruthless, horrible bastards the Soviet communists are, which, by the way, they killed about a million Afghans.
[01:16:50]  I bet, you know, Bush, Obama, and Trump combined probably killed about half of that.
[01:16:54]  And their war was absolutely merciless and lasted half as long.
[01:16:58]  But anyway, it's the same thing here.
[01:17:01]  You know, fine.
[01:17:02]  You like Israel.
[01:17:03]  You like some Israelis.
[01:17:05]  You've been to Israel and you thought they were nice.
[01:17:07]  Well, fine.
[01:17:08]  They're engaging in an ethnic cleansing campaign in East Jerusalem that if it was happening in any other place in the world, you would go, oh my God, it's a genocide against the Uyghurs or some kind of thing.
[01:17:19]  You know, same thing with the, look, in Gaza, you know, they compare the West Bank as like a minimum security prison and Gaza is like a maximum security prison, like an open-air concentration camp.
[01:17:34]  They're not allowed to leave.
[01:17:35]  They have no airport, no seaport, no travel outside the strip.
[01:17:38]  They are imprisoned there.
[01:17:40]  They have drones flying overhead, sometimes killing them, sometimes not, but always.
[01:17:46]  There's always drones and the sound of drones in the air.
[01:17:49]  And they have all of their trade goes through Israel.
[01:17:53]  They're under a total siege and blockade in the name of the fact that Hamas got elected in 2006.
[01:17:59]  But in fact, it was America that forced them to hold the elections in 2006.
[01:18:04]  The Israelis deliberately withheld all the tax money from Fatah, the Arafat faction, so they couldn't buy up their votes, all their patronage, and all of that, and gave the advantage to Hamas.
[01:18:17]  Then, when Hamas won, they went, oh, whoops, we shouldn't have done that.
[01:18:20]  Let's try to do a coup.
[01:18:21]  And you can read about this, David Rose in Vanity Fair.
[01:18:24]  It's called the Gaza Bombshell.
[01:18:26]  And what happened was they tried, of course, Elliot Abrams was involved in it.
[01:18:30]  And what they tried to do was smuggle a bunch of weapons in from Egypt to arm up the Fatah faction in Gaza to overthrow Hamas.
[01:18:37]  Well, Hamas got wise to the plot, killed them first, and consolidated power.
[01:18:42]  So before that, they were going to have to have a coalition government.
[01:18:46]  It was only after the failed coup that they really took control of a strip.
[01:18:50]  And then you have to go back and read the archives at antiwar.com to get the entire step-by-step chronology.
[01:18:56]  But it was an Israeli-insight crisis that led then to the laying of the siege in 2007.
[01:19:04]  That's been there ever since.
[01:19:06]  That's 14 years ago.
[01:19:08]  And they're under total blockade.
[01:19:11]  Yeah.
[01:19:12]  And then it's like...
[01:19:13]  And they're bombing the crap out of them.
[01:19:14]  And the thing that's so frustrating is just like, you know, the Teddy's Prager of the world.
[01:19:18]  Well, the story of the conflict is Israel wants peace and the Palestinians want to kill all the Jews.
[01:19:25]  And you're like, yeah, there's a little bit more to the story.
[01:19:28]  Like, by the way, I'm not even saying I'm sure there are a lot of Palestinians who in their heart of hearts just want to kill all the fucking Jews.
[01:19:35]  But just look at the situation that they're in.
[01:19:37]  I mean, like, I don't know if anyone ever did that to my kids, my wife, I'd probably want to kill all of them too.
[01:19:43]  I'll tell you what, man.
[01:19:44]  Listen, there's this excellent documentary by Max Blumenthal and Dan Cohen.
[01:19:48]  Two nice Jewish boys from America went to Gaza to see what's going on here during the war of 2014.
[01:19:55]  And it's, you know, it costs three bucks called Killing Gaza.
[01:19:58]  Everybody should watch this.
[01:19:59]  It's really important.
[01:20:00]  It's called Killing Gaza.
[01:20:01]  Whenever Gaza, I'll have to check it out.
[01:20:03]  You do.
[01:20:03]  You have to watch it.
[01:20:04]  You have to watch it.
[01:20:04]  It's three bucks to rent it online, Vimeo, whatever.
[01:20:09]  And in fact, I brought this point up with Dan and Max.
[01:20:15]  I interviewed them both about the movie, and I think I brought this up with Max on the show yesterday: this was not clever editing on their part, okay?
[01:20:24]  They just filmed Palestinian after Palestinian after Palestinian having his say.
[01:20:29]  And they all are going, You see this dirt?
[01:20:31]  This is my dirt.
[01:20:33]  And I'll fight and I'll stand and screw you.
[01:20:36]  And they sound exactly like any red-blooded full-grown male on the planet, right?
[01:20:41]  Never in mind, they sound just like what a Texan would say, just like what an American would say.
[01:20:46]  This is what anyone would say.
[01:20:48]  And what none of them say is, I hate Jews.
[01:20:52]  And what none of them say is, oh, Allah mandates jihad against the infidel and any of this.
[01:20:59]  None of that.
[01:21:00]  None of that.
[01:21:01]  They go, you see what these people are doing to us?
[01:21:03]  It ain't fair, man.
[01:21:06]  Yeah.
[01:21:06]  And that's it.
[01:21:07]  That's the whole thing.
[01:21:08]  So, you know, you're saying, like, you would understand if they said, well, I hate Jews.
[01:21:13]  Okay, I would understand too, but they still don't.
[01:21:15]  They're not even saying that.
[01:21:16]  They still don't.
[01:21:17]  They're going, look, man, you're the aggressor.
[01:21:19]  I'm the defender.
[01:21:20]  What?
[01:21:21]  And then, and Dan Cohen is sitting there with the camera going, sounds right to me.
[01:21:27]  What can you say?
[01:21:28]  Yeah.
[01:21:29]  You know?
[01:21:29]  And they're being interviewed by two Jews.
[01:21:31]  Yeah.
[01:21:32]  They're probably just happy that they're at least letting them say what they got to say.
[01:21:35]  And I don't know if they knew that Dan and Max were Jewish or not.
[01:21:38]  Yeah, they probably assumed they are.
[01:21:39]  Either way, yeah, they might have.
[01:21:40]  They probably assume they are.
[01:21:41]  If they're there and they're from the other side and they're, you know, white-ish looking to them, they'd probably be like, you know, that'd be my guess, but maybe not.
[01:21:48]  Maybe not.
[01:21:50]  But yeah, everybody watched that killing Gaza.
[01:21:52]  And then you understand who's zooming who over there, who's occupying who.
[01:21:55]  And you know what?
[01:21:55]  My friend Grant Smith, I'm almost certain that's the source of this.
[01:21:59]  Grant Smith did a poll, and it showed that most Americans, or more Americans at least, think that the Palestinians are occupying the Israelis.
[01:22:07]  Yeah.
[01:22:08]  I know they just never tell them.
[01:22:11]  And it's always spoke of, you know, the way you said, the rockets being shot into Israel.
[01:22:16]  And that's why this whole thing, it's always as if it's a given, as if that's just objective news.
[01:22:20]  It's put in that way.
[01:22:21]  It's not put in the manner of like, well, here's my opinion on this.
[01:22:25]  I think that the Palestinians started.
[01:22:27]  It's like objectively, what happened here is Palestinians launch rockets and this led to a reaction from Israel.
[01:22:33]  Now, of course, the response from Israel always does seem to kill 25 times as many people as you know, but still, it's always put in this way that Israel is responding to them.
[01:22:43]  And I would just say that final thought, because we got to wrap up.
[01:22:45]  Oh, wait, one more then.
[01:22:46]  Okay, fine.
[01:22:46]  Because you got to hold your final thought because I got one more final thought.
[01:22:48]  All right, fine, fine, go ahead.
[01:22:49]  These rockets are pipe.
[01:22:52]  Okay, they are homemade.
[01:22:54]  They had very deliberately, they use that word, and you think like, you know, heat-seeking missile or something like that.
[01:23:00]  Well, in fact, like, not even the Hawks dare call them missiles, right?
[01:23:04]  Because they'd be laughed right off the face of the earth.
[01:23:06]  Okay, they're homemade rockets.
[01:23:07]  The very best ones that they had, and they had a few that reached all the way to Jerusalem, but it was very few.
[01:23:13]  And those, I asked a military friend of mine, an expert on munitions, about this yesterday.
[01:23:17]  And he told me the very, very few, very best ones they have could possibly be compared to like a Katusha rocket.
[01:23:25]  They fire out of the back of a pickup truck.
[01:23:27]  Most of the rest of them seriously are literally like this would be coping on your skateboard ramp.
[01:23:31]  There's nothing just but metal pipe packed with, you know, whatever propellant.
[01:23:37]  Some significant number of them don't even make it out of Gaza.
[01:23:41]  Okay.
[01:23:42]  They don't even make it over the wall.
[01:23:44]  And then Ben Shapiro goes, oh, it's indiscriminate attacks on civilians.
[01:23:49]  Okay, one side is flying F-16s with laser and satellite-guided J-DAM bombs.
[01:23:56]  They can afford to be a little bit more precise compared to the guy who made a rocket in his garage in his concentration camp.
[01:24:05]  Well, yeah.
[01:24:07]  Okay, now I'm done.
[01:24:08]  All right.
[01:24:08]  No, you're absolutely right.
[01:24:09]  And I would just say, I just want to say at the end of this, to anybody out there who is listening to this, particularly to right-wingers who are annoyed by this take, because I know even amongst my audience, this still will be one of the topics where the right half of my listeners will be like, oh, this is, you know, kind of blame America first crowd, blame Israel first crowd, and all of that.
[01:24:30]  I just, I'm just saying, just look into this shit more.
[01:24:33]  Watch the Max Blumenthal documentary.
[01:24:35]  Read Sheldon Richmond's book.
[01:24:37]  Read Sheldon Richmond's book.
[01:24:38]  Coming to Palestine.
[01:24:39]  Coming to Palestine is phenomenal.
[01:24:41]  A really great book.
[01:24:42]  I highly recommend it.
[01:24:43]  An Obstacle to Peace by Hammond.
[01:24:45]  That one I have not read.
[01:24:46]  Okay, so now I have some homework too.
[01:24:48]  But Coming to Palestine is phenomenal.
[01:24:50]  And I would just say, in the same way that a lot of you right-wingers who listen to this show, you were always like the CIA are the good guys, and the FBI are the good guys, and the police are the good guys, and the military are the good guys.
[01:25:03]  And I know a lot of you guys have woken up to a lot of that shit because you watched the cops lock you in your house for the last year and then look the other way while your business is being destroyed because that's not really that important, you know?
[01:25:15]  And even the other day, whatever I was laughing about how all the people in Portland and the Seattle riots and shit who were let off, the only ones who they're actually coming down on, cracking down on hard, the ones who mess with government property.
[01:25:26]  Those are the guys who are going to go to jail.
[01:25:28]  It's like, oh, what did you light a shoe store on fire?
[01:25:30]  That's really no big deal.
[01:25:31]  But like, government built it.
[01:25:33]  Was there a mailbox outside that shoe store?
[01:25:35]  No, we're going to have to press job.
[01:25:36]  So it's like all these organizations, the FBI is targeting you.
[01:25:39]  The CIA is targeting you.
[01:25:41]  The military has just like completely bankrupted the country.
[01:25:45]  Again, not blaming the rank and file or anything, but I'm just saying, keep an open mind that maybe you were wrong about this and look into it more.
[01:25:51]  That's all I ask.
[01:25:53]  And thank you so much, Scott Horton.
[01:25:54]  If you haven't, you have to read Scott's books, both of them.
[01:25:58]  Fool's Errand, just phenomenal book.
[01:26:00]  Enough already, time to end the war on terrorism.
[01:26:05]  Gotta read both of those books.
[01:26:07]  They're phenomenal.
[01:26:08]  Anti-war radio, the Libertarian Institute, The Scott Horton Show.
[01:26:12]  Anti-war.com.
[01:26:13]  That's right.
[01:26:13]  Go check it all out.
[01:26:15]  All right.
[01:26:15]  Let's go have a fun event tonight, brother.
[01:26:17]  Hell yeah.
[01:26:17]  All right.
[01:26:18]  Thank you.