Peter Quinones and James Smith dissect the March 12th no-knock raid in Montgomery County, Maryland, where 21-year-old Duncan Lemp was killed by police while sleeping. They criticize the Montgomery Police Department for refusing to release body camera footage or the search warrant despite a family deadline of April 11th, highlighting how falsifying evidence remains a misdemeanor under Maryland law. The hosts argue this incident exemplifies state overreach and police militarization, asserting that targeting a nonviolent individual with only a speeding ticket constitutes brutality regardless of race or political beliefs. Ultimately, the discussion challenges both gun control and gun rights advocates to recognize the state's monopoly on violence as the central issue driving modern policing failures. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Stormy Night Murders00:14:57
Fill her up.
You are listening to the Gas Digital Network.
We need to roll back the state.
We spy on all of our own citizens.
Our prisons are flooded with nonviolent drug offenders.
If you want to know who America's next enemy is, look at who we're funding right now.
Every single one of these problems are a result of government being way too big.
You're listening to part of the problem on the Gas Digital Network.
Here's your host, James Smith.
Hey, what's up, everybody?
Welcome to a brand new episode of Part of the Problem.
I'm thrilled to have our guest join the show again, one of my favorite people to talk to and listen to.
Of course, he is the host of the Free Man Beyond the Wall podcast.
He also works over at the Libertarian Institute, which is about as excellent a group of people and thinkers as you can find.
I'm talking, of course, about the man formerly known as Mance Raider, formerly known as Pete Raymond, then for a little bit just known as a symbol, but now we call him Pete Quinonez.
How are you, sir?
Doing good, man.
Doing good.
I wish we were talking about something a little more cheery.
Well, I just figured, you know, a lot of people are depressed right now and they're going through a lot.
It's a hard time.
So let's just remind them that before the government shut everybody's life down, they murdered a guy while he was sleeping.
I figured that might lift some people's spirits.
I wanted to do an episode on Duncan Lemp, who was killed by police during a no-knock raid.
I've gotten a ton of requests from people to talk about this.
And I know that you've done shows on this.
Scott Horton's done shows on this.
Michael Malis just did a stream about this the other day.
So I figured I kind of felt like, well, it's been covered by some really excellent people.
So I don't know what, you know, more to add to the situation.
But I kept getting harassed by people to do a show on it.
And as people know, my ultimate weakness is that if you insult me while you request me to do a podcast on something, I have no other choice than to do it.
And of course, it is a very, it's a topic that is worthy of all of us talking about for many reasons.
Number one, because this kid was killed by the state, which is all of our enemies.
And also, I guess, because he was kind of one of us and he was a libertarian, I guess.
I don't exactly know.
From what I've heard, he was a John McAfee supporter and was kind of in this world.
And people shouldn't forget what happened.
So do you want to just like maybe give a little bit of the background on the story?
Sure.
I think, you know, when you talk about him being one of us, he really seems to me to have not even thought through what he believed.
I mean, he's 21 years old.
That's probably the thing that when people hear this, first heard this, just struck them is he's 21 years old.
And I mean, when I was 21, I don't even remember when I was 21.
There was a lot of bong-resin and all sorts of things going on at that time.
But yeah, Duncan Socrates Lemp, 21 years old, Montgomery County, which is Potomac, Maryland.
And one of the things that you really have to understand about that area is it is affluent.
It is rich.
Both of us combined couldn't afford to live there.
So, I mean, I was talking to Beauvart.
He's like, yeah, I know that area.
I can't afford to live there.
And you wonder, you don't hear about this happening in those kind of areas.
You know, it's normally middle to lower class.
So this happened.
I mean, and this is remarkable to me.
And I was talking to somebody the other day.
Time since this whole thing started with the coronavirus has grinded to a halt.
Okay.
I remember putting out this podcast like two months ago, three months ago, talking about Duncan Lemp.
This happened on March 12th.
It's like five weeks ago.
And I was shocked when I looked back and I saw that.
So it's a Thursday.
It's in the morning.
It's 4:30 in the morning, which again, you have to ask the question, why do they do this at that time?
People are sleeping.
People are naked.
People are in their underwear.
And this is his parents' home.
He's living with his parents.
It's like, I mean, you could have waited for him to go to the store and leave with his girlfriend, knock on the door and be like, look, we got this warrant and everything.
We need to come in and check because we think he shouldn't have guns.
I mean, it's really mind-boggling.
A SWAT team killed him.
And what witnesses say, which is his girlfriend, who he was in bed with, and his parents, from, I guess, what the girlfriend said, first it came out that he shot, he was shot in his sleep, that they shot through the wall, they shot through a window, and they killed him in his sleep.
And since then, all sorts of accusations.
We'll talk more about what the police came back with five days later because it's, I mean, they, but they went after him for on the warrant, it said firearms offenses, and that's it.
That is really vague.
It's like, what?
Okay, how about explaining this?
And the only way that he's referred to on the warrant is as a prohibited person.
So it's, it's all this legalese.
And I don't even know if that's legalese.
All this sounds really vague.
I mean, it doesn't even sound like it would be official terminology.
And the fact that, and how that would cross the threshold for a no-knock raid, that you're going to storm in this place like it's a hostage situation or something like that.
You know what I mean?
Like you're storming in with a SWAT team with no knock.
The best case scenario of that, you're terrorizing an entire family of people.
I mean, this is like really traumatic stuff.
And to come in in that type of situation, one would think, I mean, if you were to ask, you know, these like county police departments to justify why they have these SWAT teams and why they conduct raids in this manner, they would give you some scenario like terrorism or hostage situation or something like that.
But for something as vague as firearm offenses, now this is not somebody, you know, okay, maybe you would say, well, somebody who just murdered three people or just shot up in a crowd and has those guns back at his home.
You know, like I could think of a scenario where you would try your best to justify these type of raids, but just firearm offenses, it seems like there's at least you would think there should need to be a higher threshold met for this type of extraordinary action.
Well, I want to, I have to read this part because it's detailed.
There's some terminology in here that I can't remember right off the top of my head.
But after the fact, they asked for further information and county police spokeswoman Mary Davison refused to answer any questions and notified the press inquiries were being handled by the Maryland Public Information Act, which entitles government agencies to delay responding for weeks or even months.
The search warrant was to be sealed for 30 days, which has passed.
And still, we've never read it.
We don't know what's on it.
They've never, this is remarkable.
And there are, I love to go after the cops because they're such an easy target.
And I know there are people who live in small towns.
I've talked to people who live in really tiny towns.
Like, hey, I went to high school with that guy.
And, you know, I know these guys.
And they're never going to do something like this.
They would call if they had an idea of something like this.
But we're talking about a suburb of Washington, D.C., you know, some of the most political, the most political area on the planet.
And, you know, it's, it's the state.
It's just this, I have more, I have more to say about this, but it's just this idea of once the drug war started and they started to become more militarized, that's when that's the persona they take on all the time.
Yeah.
And it's, it's, you know, to the like right-wing conservative types who have championed the war on drugs for pretty much my entire life.
It's like, oh, guess what?
It's not going to stop there.
The war on drugs has led to an unbelievable amount of arrests for gun possessions.
Not people who have been violent with their guns, people who have committed the crime of having a gun.
And as you rightfully point out, look, this is why, you know, our enemy, the state is what we put first and foremost.
This is what they do to people.
They will storm in your house and kill you and get away with it.
And the thing that I thought in a dark sense was actually kind of funny and really kind of, you know, just put a spotlight on what it is that is at the center of me and your work and so many other good people that what the nature of the state is.
They actually had the nerve.
Now, the Montgomery Police Department has changed their story several times on this, but they actually had the nerve to say that he confronted them.
And that was the reason why he got shot.
That was their first explanation for this.
And I just thought, I mean, who else besides state agents could say something like this with a straight face?
I mean, just imagine if I were to, you know, with a gang of my friends break into your house at four in the morning, armed, pointing guns at you, and then say, and then he had the nerve to confront me.
Like, that's the state for you.
They go, oh my God, this maniac confronted me right after I broke into his house and pointed weapons at his pregnant girlfriend.
I can't imagine why he would be so confrontational.
Yeah, reports also have him at five foot eight, 145 pounds.
So, you know, really imposing against guys who are wearing body armor and basically military garb.
So the family attorney, Renee Sandler, says the SWAT team fired into his bedroom without warning.
And like you said, he was sleeping next to his pregnant girlfriend.
Then they followed that with two flashbang grenades, which the Supreme Court of North Carolina, I mean, I know this happened in Maryland, but just for context, North Carolina has designated them a weapon of mass destruction.
People think they're toys, but they're four times louder than a 12-gauge shotgun blast, and they could put holes in the wall.
So they're meant to injure.
And anyone who's ever, I mean, I fired a 12-gauge shotgun many times.
You have ear protection on, I mean, to, because if you don't, your ears are going to be blown out.
And these are four times louder than that.
I mean, they're just, they're meant to cause damage.
They're meant to hurt people.
You know, we saw it at Waco too.
I mean, Waco, they were using them like crazy.
They were incendiary at that, at Waco.
So the police refuse to justify why they did this at 4.30.
They categorize it as a police involved shooting.
After they shot him, they handcuffed everybody and searched the home.
The family says they just left him there to bleed out.
They didn't even try to get him any help.
I mean, he was pronounced dead on the scene.
So, you know, it's, and we talk about, I love that we talk about how terrible al-Qaeda terrorists and ISIS terrorists are.
I mean, if this isn't terrorism, I mean, it might not be chopping someone's head off, but it's killing somebody in their home where they think they're safe.
And then when they shoot him, they don't even call, you know, paramedics to come in.
And he was shot multiple times.
So he probably was not going to make it anyway.
But still, you, for show, you would think at least for show.
The police posted pictures of five weapons, none of which appeared from my looking to be illegal, like automatic or full auto or select fire.
The police immediately sought to contradict the family story saying Lemp had a weapon and confronted them.
And even if that is true, there's no evidence that they announced themselves.
It's like you were saying, you know, you wake up and there's people pointing guns at you.
What do you do?
Are you supposed to just be like, oh, okay, you know, I mean, I've always said that.
If home invaders, all home invaders have to do is say, police coming in, kick the door in.
And oh, oh, it's the police.
Okay.
And you're supposed to just submit to them, I suppose, would be the position from the cops that you're not, that you, you now have no right to self-defense.
You've never, it hasn't been, even if they were to announce themselves as police once they're already inside.
I mean, number one, as you just indicated, you have no way of knowing that these are cops, that they're actually cops.
Number two, it's not as if you've been served a warrant or anything like that.
It's not as if you know that there's, you know, a warrant out for your arrest, that you're, this is just all, and also you, you're supposed to put this all together at 4.30 in the morning, coming out of like deep REM sleep, going, you know, your, your adrenaline is spiking through the roof.
And you're supposed to in this moment figure out what the rules to compliance are.
And just to, you know, touch on what you said before, I mean, like, I don't care what the situation is.
You don't throw fucking flashbang grenades at a pregnant woman.
And you literally could be murdering a woman and her baby.
The Quip Toothbrush00:02:56
And even short of that, I mean, babies, you know, I know this because I lived with my wife when she was pregnant.
And babies are very sensitive to sound while in the womb.
Babies can be scared while in the womb.
They have all these studies on like playing soothing music and stuff like that.
And like knowing, you know, like I would talk to my wife's stomach every day.
My baby knew my voice when she came out.
Everybody, her grandparents used to comment on it all the time.
Like when I'd, as a newborn, I mean, day one, when I'd start talking, she'd like look over in that direction.
And like you should, you can tell.
So this is, I mean, it is, it is traumatizing a pregnant woman and a baby incredibly dangerous for a pregnant woman, not to mention just, you know, you blow her freaking arm off or you blow her, you know, the baby up or something really horrible like that.
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Fear for Black People00:06:26
One of the things that I, you know, one of the reasons why this is a really important story, one of them, there's several, obviously, because somebody's life was lost, but that this is something that, you know, even the, you know, the right-wingers who tend to kind of justify, you know, the police, you know, kind of like tend to be on their side all the time.
I mean, this is, listen, if you're a pro-gun, pro-life person, and you, by definition, have to be appalled at this situation.
You have to be.
If you are pro-life and you are pro-gun, you must, I command you to be outraged over Duncan Lent's murder.
Killing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And another thing is they're all wearing body cams.
They haven't released the footage yet.
And like that code said, you know, they can hold it for months.
You don't have to see it.
Duncan had one criminal offense.
It was a speeding ticket.
Oh, well, cancel the show then in that case.
All right.
He got what he deserved.
I mean, a speeder.
We can't have speeders out there.
And here's something too.
I mean, like I said, he was five foot eight.
They reported he weighed 145 pounds.
These guys come in there, they're dressed like soldiers.
And I've interviewed many vets on the show, on my show, and they all say when they put on that garb, when they get dressed up to be warriors, their attitude changes.
You become untouchable.
You actually become ready to commit violence.
Yeah.
That's no question.
I mean, not that I've dressed up in military gear before, but what you wear has a huge effect on you.
I mean, if you were to like, if you were to show up to a meeting and everybody there had a suit and tie on and you had sandals and shorts on, you, I'm telling you, would feel it.
Like you're like, oh man, I do not feel like I can like really participate in this meeting.
You ever put on like a nice suit?
You feel a different way about yourself.
When you get dressed up to go out somewhere to like a fancy night out or something like that, you feel differently about yourself.
And I'm sure throwing on that military, you throw on the gear like I'm ready to go to war.
And then what's your mentality?
You're ready to go to war.
And then you consider how many police are former military.
You have to take that into consideration.
Police, and this is something that people need to be reminded of.
Police rules of engagement are compared to like a soldier in Afghanistan.
It's unbelievable.
A soldier in Afghanistan, if they see somebody walking with an AK-47, they cannot raise the muzzle at that, their muzzle at that person until that person points a gun at them.
But they can't shoot until someone points a gun at them.
In the United States, the Supreme Court and decision after decision, police can shoot if they fear for their lives, that fear for their lives thing.
I mean, and that's the biggest excuse on the planet.
Everyone is just, I mean, remember Daniel Shaver crawling down the hallway, crying in a hotel hallway, begging for his life, and he just reaches back to pull his shorts up because his shorts have started falling down.
And they just light him up.
I mean, really, where was the fear?
And that guy got away with it.
And then they rehired him six months later for like two weeks so that he could get a pension.
And isn't it, am I misremembering this?
Didn't he have a fake gun?
Wasn't that what it was about?
It was an air gun because he his job was, I think he was in pest control and he used an air gun for like rats or birds that were like would get in somebody's building or something like that.
So it was an air gun and somebody said, you know, another Karen, you know, saw him in a hotel room through a window and said, oh, he's pointing a gun out a window and everything.
And that's when the police show up.
But I mean, even still, the guy's crawling down a hallway, begging for his life.
I mean, anybody who watches that who isn't just, you know, doesn't want to find Philip Brailsford of Mesa, Arizona, and do something about it.
I mean, I just don't know who you are.
And of course, there's so many of these stories.
Like always, it's the national conversation on them is really only about Black Lives Matter and the cops gunning down black people.
And then it gets pitted as this, like, it's white people versus black people type thing when really the story is always the state against the people.
I mean, I'm not saying that's, it's always the story.
Like I'm trying to force things into my narrative.
I'm saying like quite blatantly, if you just look at it objectively, there's like twice as many white people who are killed by cops every year as black people.
Now, okay, you can say black people are only 13% of the population, whatever.
We can go down all these fucking things.
And I'm not discounting anybody's argument on this on either side.
I'm just saying this happens all around all different colored communities.
The issue here is police brutality, police murder, police authority that's being misused.
And that's, you know, it'd be much nicer to see Black Lives Matter take up some of these cases and be like, hey, look, we hate it when white people are killed by the cops too.
for these gun rights people, you know, to start sticking up for the Orlando Castillo, or I might be Castillo, you know, the black guy who was a legal firearm holder.
Like, where's the NRA on that issue?
If we're ever going to actually get something done on this, we need to like all cross over and come together and be like, hey, we're all against the cops killing people who should not be killed.
Yeah, I mean, if the cops have to exist because we still have this monopoly on force and violence, but they don't have to do the job the way they do it.
It's just the war on drugs, everything.
Ideology and Police00:10:57
Whenever the United States government declares a war on anything, it just turns into a clusterfuck.
I mean, it is, and people die, get hurt.
I mean, lives destroyed.
Millions, millions.
But his last tweet, Duncan Lemp, the last tweet he ever did, the Constitution is dead.
Jeez.
Could you see into the future?
Well, we'll talk about that because there is something that I've been talking to Bovard about because the third time the police changed their story, they said that the girlfriend told them that the bedroom door was booby-trapped from the inside.
And allegedly, it was booby-trapped with a shotgun shell that was a blank.
And does that, you think maybe he thought people were out to get him?
Like maybe somebody would be coming?
It makes sense to me.
I mean, he's doing it in his parents' house.
It's kind of odd, but also I've never heard the girlfriend say this.
So it's just speculation at this time.
But yeah, but one he had like his social media was loaded with pro-gun, pro-freedom stuff.
He had the motto Six Emperor Tyrannus on several things on his social media, which is, you know, as always to tyrants.
Famously, Booth, John Wilkes Booth said it before he killed Lincoln.
But let's remember that's also the Virginia state motto.
So, I mean, it's not like that's out of the mainstream.
One of the states has it as their motto.
And then if all that stuff was, he advertised all that stuff all over social media.
One has to ask if he was not targeted because of his beliefs.
I mean, Ross Ulbricht, when he was at his sentencing, the judge clearly said that Mr. Ulbricht has a radical libertarian ideology.
I mean, that sounds like targeting.
It sounds like, you know, hey, this threatens us.
This believing in liberty, maybe even less to a certain extent than a lot of the colonists did, is dangerous nowadays.
They can target you for that.
Yeah, that is, I mean, that is just incredibly creepy.
And I, you know, listen, obviously, when it's like a libertarian or something like that, you know, it makes my blood boil that that would be the ideology that they find so dangerous.
But I got to say, even when Christopher Cantwell was getting charged after those after the Charlottesville thing, when he got in those like scuffles and there were like people pepper spraying or he got charged with pepper spraying people.
I don't know exactly.
I don't remember the details at this point.
But, you know, and of course, you're never allowed to say anything in the like approved, you know, public positions, except, well, what an evil person.
And I root for everything terrible to happen to him.
But I remember at first when he was looking at like 60 years or something like that, like they trumped up the charges so much.
I mean, you know, getting into like a fight where peppers with pepper spray or getting into a fistfight, this typically results in like probation for a few years or something like that.
But because he was like this person they wanted to make an example of, they were like charging him with all these crazy crimes and trying to get him in jail for decades.
It didn't work out, you know, and he didn't do it.
But I remember when the lawyers were arguing that it's his radical political worldview and this is why he's so dangerous.
And they were trying to introduce the hate speech on his podcast into the courtroom.
And I remember saying, I was like, this is really creepy.
Like, you can really not like this guy's politics.
That's fine.
You can hate him as a person.
That's fine.
But there's something very, very disturbing about anybody's political leanings being brought into a court of law and presented to a judge.
And this is now being used to throw some extra years on top.
And this is the thing that I would say to libertarians.
It'd be like, hey, if you don't accept this when it happens to someone's political ideology because you hate that person or that ideology, because what political ideology is the real threat to the state, right?
Wouldn't that be us?
And since all these sentences are coming down from the state, maybe we don't want to support political ideology being used as a reasoning for harsher sentencing.
And so certainly, obviously, with Ross, that was the case.
With Cantwell, that was obviously the case.
And so, yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable for you to speculate that maybe, you know, possibly that with Duncan, this was part of the reason why they were targeting him.
It's certainly possible.
Sure.
Yeah.
It definitely seems like the powers that be don't like that kind of thinking.
One thing about Maryland: between 2010 and 2014, 8,000 SWAT raids.
I mean, that's just remarkable.
This next part right here, I'm going to read this because there's so much here that I couldn't remember this off the top of my head.
And this is directly Bovard wrote this for American Conservative.
Montgomery County Police have refused to disclose the name of the police officer or officers who killed Lem.
Maryland police are protected by the so-called law enforcement officers bill of rights that prohibits questioning a police officer for 10 days after any incident in which he used deadly force.
A 2019 George Washington Law Review nationwide survey revealed that 98% of police chiefs believe that delaying interrogations of police after a shooting can impede investigations, but police unions clout prevails on the issue.
One police chief commented that, quote, showing evidence in advance allows police to tailor their lies to fit the evidence.
While another police chief observed that the process simply gives police suspects time to fabricate a better lie.
Man.
Man, is that just this is the police talking about themselves?
This is how fucked up Maryland is.
Police around the country look at them and they go, yeah, that's tyranny.
I mean, just think about, right?
Like, I try sometimes in these situations to just, you know, take the perspective of someone who disagrees with us.
You know, like maybe there's somebody who goes, yeah, yeah, I mean, you're, you guys are libertarians.
Like, whatever.
I just think, you know, there's a lot of negative externalities to drugs.
So we got to ban drugs and we need these police forces.
And you got to have these raids because there's some situations where they account for them, like whatever, you know, someone might take the other position.
How could you defend that?
Like, how could you defend that in the event?
Let's say in the event that there's a justified, you know, police shooting.
We had to have this, the situation was so severe that we needed a no-knock raid.
We needed to swarm into this guy's house and we ended up killing somebody in this crazy situation.
Okay.
How could you not support releasing the body cam footage?
How could you not support being allowed to question the officer?
How could you not support them having to explain what happened in the same way that if anybody, look, if somebody broke into your house tomorrow and you killed them, a justifiable homicide?
Like they came in with a gun pointed at you and Jen, and you got to your gun first and you killed this guy.
You know, a complete self-defense, justified killing, right?
There you go.
You're ready.
So by the way, if you do come into Pete's house with a gun pointed at him and Jen, be quick because Pete's right there with his gun.
But so you kill him.
And you know, okay, we, all of us, right?
We'd be like, yes, you had a right to do that.
We all believe in the right to self-defense.
But then if you were like, hey, I have this whole thing on camera and you were like, but I'm not going to show it to anybody.
Like, and then you were like going to trial or something.
And then you'd be like, I won't ask it, I won't answer any questions.
I'm not going to tell you what happened.
I'm not going to tell you who it was who shot him.
I'm not going to tell you what happened.
And I have the whole thing on camera, but you can't see any of it.
Wouldn't it be reasonable for people who even believe in self-defense, even go, hey, I'm on your side.
You probably had the right to do this to go, yeah, now, Pete, you're going to have to show us that footage.
Like, somebody is going to have to take a look at this and confirm that it is, in fact, what you say it was.
How do you argue against that?
It's remarkable.
I mean, it's like, oh, we killed this guy.
We don't have to, we're not, we don't have to say anything about it.
Here's another thing that probably why police around the country look at Marilyn and they're like, are you kidding me?
Maryland treats police falsifying evidence the same way they treat jaywalking.
It's a misdemeanor.
So there are stories of them falsifying evidence of against somebody, that person spending six months in jail before they're released.
And then finally, when it comes, when it comes out that the police officer falsified evidence, he gets a slap on the wrist and keeps his job.
Holy shit.
That is really, that's really hard to believe.
Jesus.
I know, I know, but Bovard did, he like did all the work on this, man.
He went like from the, from the, as soon as he saw this happen, he just started investigating, investigating, and he came up with all this stuff.
And I was just like, this, it's unbelievable.
It's unbelievable.
So now we get to the point where five days later, the police start releasing information and start saying stuff.
So the statement, which was a third revision, completely contradicts what the eyewitnesses had to say.
Police now say the raid was spurred by an anonymous tip at the beginning of the year indicating that Lemp was in possession of firearms in the beginning of the year.
They were so worried about this guy.
Violent Criminals Guns00:10:11
He was such a danger to society that they let this sit around for three months and not do anything about it until a Thursday morning at 4:30 a.m.
Yeah, that's like it's just right.
And right, so all of a sudden they have to come in with a no-knock raid at 4 a.m.
You know, I was just, I was on a, I was just recording with Molyneux, with the great, the great Stefan Molyneux, the great, the great flawless.
I support everything, every tweet he's ever put out, Stefan Molyneux.
And, you know, he said something that really I thought was really smart.
That I was a great insight that I hadn't even thought of.
But we were just kind of talking about how a free society would handle a pandemic, you know, and going into just kind of the theoretical kind of Ann Kapistan things, which Stefan Molyneux has always just been so great at that stuff.
And I love doing that.
I know you love doing that stuff too, like really thinking through the philosophy and how we would handle different situations.
And one of the things he was talking about was like, oh, you know, like, what if there were people you really had to force quarantine?
And he was like, well, you know, the kind of status solution is like, well, we're forcing you to quarantine.
And if you don't, we'll send you to fucking jail or we'll kill you, you know, like that's more or less it.
And if we do send people to jail, then we have to pay for them to, you know, be incarcerated.
We have to pay for their meals.
We have to pay for their clothes, pay for the prison space, pay for all this stuff.
And at these crazy inflated government prices, it's actually very expensive to incarcerate people.
And then you have to pay the corrections officer.
You know, you have to pay the warden.
You have to pay, like, there's a whole lot of costs involved in this.
He was like, so how about in a free society, to be consistent with the non-aggression principle, if we were to just offer people money, just go like, hey, if you quarantine yourself, we'll give you 10 grand.
Hey, I know you got, it's going to be two weeks in this place.
We'll put you up in a real nice place.
We'll pay you to be here.
We'll make sure your kids and family are taken care of.
If you have any of that, hey, just so you know, if you have a family and kids, you could be getting them sick.
So we really think it's the best thing for like there's instead of this, you can look for, and this is what happens when you remove the violence, the aggression, and you have to come up with the peaceful solutions.
You go, okay, well, what's a better solution to this?
What can we do here?
And so you, you like, you know, you come up with these other solutions.
And just that was just in my brain because we just recorded this.
And I'm even thinking about this now.
It's like, if you were, if you really thought this kid was a danger and your goal was to try to get these guns out of the house, it's so obvious that you would just have someone stake out the house and wait till he leaves without the guns.
If he's the dangerous guy, you remove the situation.
And this you can even for police safety.
You know, like if you, if your concern is just the cops being in danger, since what they're saying is obviously they were in such great danger that they had to throw flash grenades at a pregnant woman.
I don't know about you.
I'd have to be in a pretty bad situation to ever consider doing that.
So let's not put you in that situation.
Let's wait till the dangerous guy is out without the guns and then knock on the door and be like, hey, we have a warrant and we're armed and we got it.
We got to come confiscate these guns.
No problem.
You know, like obviously breaking in at 4.30 in the morning and throwing flash grenades is not the sane or safe way to do this.
It's remarkable.
I mean, think about it.
Here's the equation.
Okay.
I was good at math.
Anonymous tip equals no-knock SWAT raid at 4:30 a.m.
Yeah, come on.
I mean, come on.
So, so then basically, he uh, so Duncan Lunt was right.
The Constitution is dead, uh, and there's no such thing as rights.
Because if you, if you can be the victim of a, of a raid because someone said so, uh, how is how, how do you even pretend that anyone has the pretense of rights?
So to move on, the press statement declared, this is what the police said five days later on their third revision of their remarks.
Obviously, we've already talked about how they don't care.
I mean, they can fabricate evidence and get a slap on the wrist.
The officers entering the residence announced themselves as police and that they were serving a search warrant.
I thought it was a no-knock warrant.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this, and it took till your third revision for this to be your story.
Or are they announcing themselves?
Which one is it?
Yeah.
This is ridiculous, man.
So according to the statement from the family, the raid began when SWAT officers initiated gunfire and flashbangs through Duncan Lemp's bedroom window in the front of the house.
According to police, upon making contact with Lemp, officers identified themselves as the police and gave him multiple orders to show his hands.
So it also doesn't specify whether they shot or otherwise wounded Lemp before making contact and issuing commands.
According to Lemp's pregnant girlfriend, who was in bed with him at the time of this, police never made verbal commands upon either her or Duncan until after Duncan was shot and lay bleeding on the floor.
And then it's like they, you know, even in the, I don't know, were they still claiming by this revision that they, that he confronted them?
Is that the police claim?
They say upon entrance by officers into Lemp's bedroom, Lemp was found to be in possession of a rifle and was located directly in front of the interior bedroom entrance door while he was laying bleeding on the floor.
Right.
Yeah, this seems to be, I mean, again, like I said before, if somebody these aren't even good lies.
Yeah, they're bad lies.
But and also, I mean, it's like, if somebody did, like, I mean, this is the thing that's just so crazy.
Like, if somebody had weapons and you think, you know, this is somebody who shouldn't have weapons.
I mean, hey, we'll all agree there are some people who shouldn't have weapons.
I mean, there's, I, I certainly, and that's why everybody should have weapons.
Because there are some people who shouldn't have weapons.
Right.
That's why everybody should have weapons.
But like, look, I would not be against, you know, in and Kapistan under certain situations, if somebody was found to be guilty of a violent crime, that part of their agreement, if they ever wanted to be accepted back into society, was that they had to agree they weren't allowed to have guns anymore.
Like if it was, you know, I could think of a situation where even I agree.
I don't want violent criminals to have guns.
I think the state does a lousy job of regulating that because they are violent criminals with guns by nature.
But I don't want violent criminals to have guns.
Part of the reason I'm an anarchist.
But like, if you had a guy who you think is dangerous and has guns and you were trying to create a situation where he would grab those guns and use them, storming into his house at 4:30 in the morning might be the best situation you could think of.
And so it's just, you know, does that seem irrational to you that they would do it that way?
That they would actually plan it that way?
That they would actually initiate.
I mean, we know the military does that.
The military sets it up so that people will fight back so that they can kill them.
I mean, does it mean it's not outside the realm of possibilities?
It seems like why it seems like the whole idea of this type of raid seems almost to be designed to create that type of situation, which then justifies these type of raids.
You know what I'm saying?
Because then if a guy grabs a gun and shoots at you, it's like, see, that's why we got to have raids like this because we are proven right.
The guy shot at us.
So obviously we had to do this.
But it does seem like anybody with any common sense.
And again, as I said before, from the perspective of police safety, even, you know what I mean?
Not even just from the perspective we have, which is like, holy shit, you killed a fucking innocent person and in front of a pregnant woman and a family and all this shit.
But even if you're concerned with strictly police safety, it makes absolutely no sense that this is the way these things would be conducted.
Yeah, they don't take their own safety into consideration.
They may think they do, but they don't.
But so the police are claiming to be vindicated because they found firearms in his house.
And they assert that because of a criminal record he had as a juvenile, which can't be opened, that's convenient.
That he couldn't legally purchase firearms in Maryland until he was 30 years old.
So that's a death sentence.
And of course, it would be if you were to maybe take the wild position of being skeptical of the police's third revised story where they won't release footage and can't be interviewed and all of this shit.
But if you are, you know, a little bit skeptical, as you alluded to, with that being convenient, wouldn't that be the perfect thing to say?
You know, because there's no checking on that, right?
Like we can't check on his juvenile records.
And then I think, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the lawyer, his lawyer denied this and said that there was no, that he was allowed to own the weapon.
Well, that's, yeah, that is going to be a conversation to be had.
But since the police aren't answering any questions and they are not, they're not saying anything publicly.
I mean, who we don't know.
I mean, and think about it.
If they did this off a juvenile, I mean, I have a juvenile record, okay?
And it's supposed to be sealed, allegedly.
You know, it's like, it's not supposed to be able to be used ever as an adult.
I'm sure it can be in certain circumstances.
I'm sure if, you know, John, John Walker Lind or someone like that, if he had a juvenile record, that came out.
But I mean, is this kid a terrorist?
Heshy Socks Promo00:02:38
I mean, I just, it's remarkable.
You know, he was also into crypto.
You know, he was a 21-year-old kid who was finding out about libertarianism, finding out about liberty.
He was curious about a whole bunch of things.
And maybe he shouldn't have had these weapons.
But it seems to me like if they were seated at the family dinner table at six o'clock in the evening, someone knocking on the door, the police knocked on the door and said, we have to come in here and search.
I don't think he's going to start fighting back at that point with his mom and his dad there.
There's no evidence that he was crazy, that he had mental issues.
It just sounds like he was a normal kid who, you know, there's a lot of 21-year-old kids in 2007 who heard Ron Paul speak and got on fire for Liberty.
I mean, yeah, no, he sounds better.
He sounds better than normal.
He sounds like he kind of knows what's going on.
And, you know, way better than normal.
He's not like just voting for Biden or something like that.
But of course, those guys aren't getting rated at 4.30 in the morning.
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Yeah, I mean, look, like, who the hell knows?
Gun Control Debate00:08:57
Like, even if, let's say, okay, hypothetically, which I'm not granting that this is the case, just as a thought experiment, let's say that what the cops are saying is true and he had some record, he was in Juvia or whatever, and he wasn't supposed to get a gun until he was 30.
And he purchased guns when he wasn't supposed to get guns.
Okay.
So there's an argument there that this guy wasn't legally allowed to have these guns and he had them anyway.
Okay.
Put aside the fact that I thought they weren't supposed to tell the public about someone's juvenile record, but I guess maybe because he's dead now, there's like a loophole there where they can talk about that.
But okay, so let's say that's the case.
That justifies a 4 a.m. no-knock raid.
I mean, like, okay, if that, like, normally the type of situation that people think about is that, okay, for this to happen, what would have first had to happen was there was a restraining order put on him.
There was a complaint filed that he threatened to kill his ex-wife or something like that.
You know, like some type of situation where he didn't just have these weapons, but you had a reason to think this guy could be violent.
And like, you know, and you would think you'd be ready to show that to anybody who asked, like, well, why did you go in like this?
Well, look, this is what we fucking had.
We got a kid with these weapons who he's not supposed to have.
And here's him saying, I'm going to go shoot up this school.
He's threatened to do it three times.
And we really thought he was going to go do it.
I mean, look, I'm an anarchist.
I'm against everything the state does.
But if that was the situation, something like that, you go, all right, I'll pick my battles.
We're probably not going to do a whole episode on that one.
But none of this has come out.
And there's no reason to be holding it back.
Yeah.
The family released a statement and they said the actual search warrant and sworn statements therein were sealed by the judge upon request of the police at the time the warrant was filed for 30 days.
So the public wasn't supposed to know what happened until April 11th.
Well, we're past April 11th.
Still not released.
And there's no justification for a violent pre-dawn raid on someone who, according to court records, had engaged allegedly in criminal activity since he was a kid.
Except for speeding.
But that's not criminal activity.
I mean, I guess some authoritarian can make the argument that, you know, speeding, you could kill people and everything.
But it just doesn't, none of this adds up and none of it makes sense.
And what else is in the law enforcement?
Because, yeah, speeding, I guess, theoretically could kill people.
You know what else can kill people?
Pre-dawn raids.
That can really kill people.
It just did.
Well, I thought there's a quote from Bovard that just nails all of this.
He said, The Montgomery County Police Department doesn't have a Fifth Amendment right to remain silent after it kills county residents.
The SWAT team wore body cams, and police have thus far refused to release the footage.
They deserve no benefit of the doubt for this violent killing.
Yeah.
Amen.
Yeah, that's just perfectly, perfectly said.
And, you know, this is a thing, you know, like I said earlier in the show, I said to people on the right, you know, like you, you know, and again, like following my Hortonian rules of arguing, I'm not asking you to not be a right-winger.
And I know I have a lot of audience who are right-wingers and some, smaller amounts, but some who are left-wingers.
So to the right, it's like, listen, if you're, if you're pro gun rights and pro-life, then like I said, I command you to be outraged over this because that is you, you have to be.
You absolutely have to be.
And then to the people on the left who are pro-gun control, just think it through, man.
Just take a breath and think it through because this is, whether you like it or not, this is in reality what gun control looks like.
This is what it is.
Imagine, just take, if you're one of the left-wingers who listens to this show, just take a deep breath, take like three hits a pot or something like that, lose yourself, lose yourself for a minute and think about this situation.
If you were supporting the SWAT raid here that shot and killed this man, quite possibly while he was sleeping next to his pregnant girlfriend, which seems to be the most likely scenario of what happened here.
If you're on that side, are you against guns?
Are you against gun violence?
There's neither side here who's against guns, whether you're with Duncan or you're with the SWAT raiders.
There's no against guns.
It's do you like the state guns or do you like the private guns?
That's the whole issue of gun control.
And if you really want to have gun control on a major level, like a major increase in gun control throughout this country, you're not going to be looking at less gun deaths.
You're going to be looking at Duncan Lemp stories all over the country.
Well, it's been roughly 40 days since this happened.
And that's it, man.
We don't have anything else on this because how I spelled it out, Maryland has a police officer's Bill of Rights, like they're a protected minority.
It's just, I mean, it's unbelievable, man.
I mean, I think the greatest thing that I brought to the table here is that police officers around the country think these people are savages.
They think they're acting like criminals.
They're actually saying that it gives them time to construct a lie.
What more do you need to know about modern day law enforcement?
Yeah, it really is.
I mean, how, you know, I try my best in a lot of these situations to try to put myself in someone else's shoes or see the other side of the argument, but I just don't see how you could support that, that type of policing policy.
Even if he knew there was cops out there that were going to throw a flashbang in there and he grabbed a machine gun to protect himself, he was in the right.
I mean, these cops are not.
I mean, you have to, in order to have that kind of force, like I think, like you said, if somebody just robbed a bank, shot a couple people in the bank, and then they chased them into a house, there's justification there to go into the house, guns blazing, to take this person down because, I mean, they're a danger to the public, to everyone.
But this, I mean, 4.30 in the morning?
Yeah, somebody's sleeping, yeah, even if somebody was in a hostage situation.
If they went into a bank and took hostages, and one of the hostages they took was a pregnant woman, and some officer threw a bomb, which is what these flash grade flash bang grenades are.
If you threw a bomb right by the pregnant woman, you'd be like, Holy shit, slow down, man.
The whole point is to make sure you don't hurt those people.
Like, how do you just, how are you just this reckless?
Um, you know, uh, uh, with it was like the UPS drivers and the UPS driver in Miami.
Remember, they knocked over a jewelry store, they took a um, they took a UPS driver and his van on a cruise up.
I mean, and I know that area, I used to live in that area, it was on the highway.
They could have put they could have put out um strips on every exit to take out the wheels.
No, they waited until he got to Pembroke Parkway, which I mean, I know they waited until it was a residential area, and then police came and just started shooting at the van.
And then, when the people started shooting back, they took cover behind cars with civilians in them.
And you know, it's like the TV shows and movies would like us to believe that when that would start to happen, the first thing the police are going to do is, well, wait a minute, these people in these cars, they're innocent.
We need to get them to safety.
No, they used them as shields.
I mean, I don't understand how anybody can defend them anymore.
It just doesn't really people like to say, oh, you know, we live, we're in a civilized society, really, really.
Where we, you know, almost half of most people's income is stolen and used to drop bombs on kids all over the place.
Cops Enforcing Bullshit00:04:59
Um, when you go to pay for gasoline, almost half of it is going his taxes to pay for roads that never get fixed.
I mean, what are we?
This is civilization, seriously.
I released an episode today with Jim Davidson, who he's an American who went to Somalia when the state fell over there and tried to open up businesses and try, you know, because there was no state, there's no regulations.
He tried to do all this and every and everything, and he was having success until 9/11 happened.
And he said what he describes from talking to tribal people over there, you know, the people that he had to deal with in order to do this, they have more, they have more honor than the people we deal with on a daily basis.
Yeah, it's really, yeah, it sure is.
And someone right now is saying, Well, then why don't you move to Somalia?
Somebody's always, but that's the rule of being a libertarian.
Somebody's always saying, Why don't you move to Somalia?
Well, because the U.S. government went and ruined our anarchist paradise.
So, we, I don't want to get drone, I don't want to get drone bombed by America.
Yeah, there you go.
Well, but you know, those are coming here soon.
So, so you know, we'll be fine.
Well, that is uh, you know, that's part of the reason why I wanted to do this episode because, you know, obviously, three reasons basically.
Number one, this is just an important story, it's a tragic story.
And somebody who was, you know, see at least seems to be a guy who was somewhat of a liberty, you know, believer, you know, in the larger sense in the liberty movement, um, was killed by the cops.
And it seems pretty clear that it was, you know, an outrageous violation of his rights and ultimately his life.
Number two, just because a lot of people were asking me to talk about this.
But I was almost not going to do the episode because I did kind of feel like, you know, as I said before, like, you did an episode on this, Scott did an episode on this.
I go, like, ah, there's, there's good people who are already covering it.
So it's like, if you want to hear from, I'm probably not going to have much of a different opinion than you or Scott or Bovard or any of these guys have on it.
So what am I?
But the main reason why I wanted to do this episode was just because, man, the more I was thinking about it and reading about the situation, it just, it really does apply to everything we're going through right now.
Like this is a great, you know, cautionary tale.
It's a tale of Karens and government authoritarianism.
And man, isn't that important right now to think about?
The idea that we have accepted an unprecedented level of government authoritarianism.
And that sounds crazy for me to say, for people like me and you to say that, because we always are talking about how bad the state is and how bad what they do.
And God, I mean, you know, we are, you know, the warfare capital of the world.
We're the empire.
You know what I mean?
We're the we have the largest prison population in the world and, you know, per capita and total and all that stuff.
And, you know, all the stuff that we talk about all the time.
But we've accepted now cops telling people they can't leave their house.
But we've accepted cops telling people they can't go for a jog in the park or go fishing or go to Home Depot.
They can't open their business.
They can't all of this.
And this is the side of cops enforcing bullshit rules that we don't like to think about, but that is all around, all around us.
And of course, it starts with the Karens and ends with the police guns.
So it's a very, I think it's an important story.
I think it's important that we don't forget it for the fact that there's a woman who's about to be a fucking single mother because of these fucking monsters, that this kid is going to grow up without his father or her father.
I mean, that is really tragic, really, really tragic.
And it certainly seems like it didn't have to be this way.
And the least we could do is, you know, remember the story.
I don't know.
Anything in closing that you'd like to add?
Well, I've been at least every couple of days, I bother.
Bovard lives in the area, so he's constantly on their asses about information.
When are you going to release this?
When is this going to happen?
Talking to the press up there.
And yeah, I mean, time has passed on the 30 days and they still haven't released anything.
So I don't, we just need to stay vigilant on this one because the body cam footage is going to be what tells the story.
And until that comes out, I'm going to believe the eyewitnesses over the people who are paid liars.
Universal Healthcare UBI00:05:35
I mean, and that's not a pejorative.
They are paid to lie and they protect, they protect themselves all the time.
The thin blue line is a real thing.
Oh, they'll be the first to tell you.
Cops will tell you this all throughout the country.
They're like, yeah, I'm on Team Blue.
I don't say anything bad about other cops.
My gang can beat your gang.
They actually say that.
They actually say that.
My gang can beat your gang.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right, Barney Fife.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, you know, when I wanted to do this episode, literally the first person I thought of was you.
I was like, I want to get Pete on this one because I think he's the guy I'd want to talk to about this.
So I really appreciate you coming on.
And if people don't listen to Free Man Beyond the Wall, it's really one of the best podcasts out there.
It's absolutely one of my favorites.
And it's really the podcast over the last couple years that's been like the fastest growing podcast in this liberty space.
And so, you know, keep up the great work.
And thanks for coming on again.
And by the way, I've gotten a lot of people who are very excited for the documentary after seeing that trailer that you or teaser or whatever you call it that you put out.
So, real quick, before we go, tell them about the doc and when that'll be out.
Well, I just finished going over the third draft of it.
I think the first draft was like two hours and 25 minutes.
We've got it down to 156 and we still have to figure out some place to trim something.
But yeah, everything's coming together.
Right now, we're just figuring out, well, we want the information, the content.
We know what we want it to be.
Just got to trim away a little bit of fat and then add in all the animation, graphics, things like that.
And we already have a working soundtrack, which is really nice because if we didn't have music, it'd be like an old Nova documentary.
And I love some of the old Nova documentaries, but you got to have a little bit more modern and everything.
But we're looking, Chris tells me next month, May.
And what's funny is I asked him, I said, well, you know, because he lives out in Oregon.
I'm like, so being, you know, with all this, you had more time.
He's like, I don't, my wife works.
I don't work.
I've had all the time in the world to do this.
So it's like, so he's just working his ass off on it.
And then once we get it down to where we want it, we have a professional editor who's going to add in all the microphone sound and everything.
And it looks like, I mean, I really honestly believe if we don't have it next month, it'll, I mean, I don't see why it can't be out next month, but if it's not next month, it'll be June.
It'll be June.
And I mean, I just no more perfect timing for this because it's just this, it's amazing to me how many libertarians I see, you know, people call themselves anarchists on social media who don't realize what's going on with all this coronavirus and the shutdowns and the tyranny and how this is, this isn't going away.
I mean, even if they said, oh, everything's going to open up, you're going to see people, the culture's changed.
You're going to see masks all the time.
You're going to see people who don't want to shake hands, which, I mean, I'm a handshaker.
I'm a hugger too.
And it's just, it's, it's going to change everything.
And I mean, I really think that there are a lot, huge parts of sectors of businesses that aren't coming back.
I mean, I don't think it's ever going to be the same again.
And I really, I honestly think UBI is on the way and universal healthcare is on the way.
Yeah.
You know, I think UBI and universal healthcare are both on the way and they're not what I'm worried about.
That's how bad things are right now.
I'm almost ready to just like wave the white flag at UBI and Universal Healthcare and be like, okay, whatever, whatever, have that.
Can we not be Nazi Germany, though?
Like, could we be, can we be Sweden and not Nazi Germany?
That would be like, you know, preferable to me.
Yeah.
But 100%, man, because it is the authoritarianism.
People are embracing it.
And I would say half the country is fine with it and over half the country.
Yeah.
No, you might well be right about that.
And I agree with you, man.
This really is.
Yeah.
If you can find a silver lining, it is the perfect fucking time for your documentary to come out, which people don't know.
This is a fucking, it's like the anarchist documentary with all of the great anarchist thinkers of our times and libertarian thinkers of our times.
And it's really, it's, I, you know, I've saw a little bit of the footage and it looks so fucking good.
So I'm very excited for that.
And once again, Pete, thanks so much for coming on.
And, you know, I really enjoyed the episode, even though it was somewhat depressing and infuriating, but it's important.
And I'm glad you took the time to join us.
Go listen to Pete's podcast, Free Man Beyond the Wall, and follow him on Twitter.
What's your Twitter handle now?
Is it Peter Arquinonas?
Peter Arquinoz.
There you go.
What's on the screen right there?
You know, he's been booted off before, so I forgot what the old one was or what the new one was now.
But anyway, let's hope you don't get booted off again for a little while because it's all inevitable.
It's inevitable we're all getting kicked off all these platforms.