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Dec. 30, 2024 - Human Events Daily - Jack Posobiec
49:23
The Chronicles of the Christians - Part III: The Shroud of Turin

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Christ is King! Hosanna! Hosanna! Hosanna!
Hosanna!
Fio, love thee!
Benedictus qui bendit in nomine et dominie, An apparent new discovery regarding the Shroud of Turin.
Reports say there is new evidence the Shroud is 2,000 years old, which coincides with Our Lord's life and crucifixion.
These reports originally surfaced in 2022, but what appears to be new are studies concluded earlier this summer.
They were focused on bloodstains and scourge marks found on the shroud and allude to Christ's death by being nailed to a cross, a common method of execution by the Romans at the time.
No!
I'm so fatani.
No!
The tomb is open.
He's alive!
That's not possible.
I saw him!
Mary, maybe it was someone else.
You think I'm mad?
Peter!
See the tomb for yourself.
Now do you believe me?
Well, ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard to today's edition of the Chronicles of the Christians.
And in this chronicle, we delve into the sacred mystery that's puzzled and inspired the faithful for centuries, the Shroud of Turin.
Our tale today, the Shroud of Christ, speaks of a revelation that might just bridge the chasm between faith and science.
Through the meticulous work of modern science, chemical analysis has whispered to us truths long veiled by time.
This shroud believed by many to be the very cloth that wrapped our Lord after his crucifixion has now been authenticated to the time of Christ himself.
So this may not just be a fabric.
It could be a testament and a silent witness to the historic physical life and resurrection of Jesus.
Imagine this very shroud, once perhaps displayed in the majestic city of Constantinople, influencing the hands of medieval artists, Their brushes, guided by more than just inspiration, might have painted the face of Christ from this very image.
Every stroke, every shade could have been a memory of the divine passed down through time.
The same way that we know that the medieval monks meticulously copied the Bible word for word for hundreds and thousands of years.
This is why the medieval art matches the face that we see on this shroud.
The implications for our faith are profound.
Here lies potential proof, not just of Christ's existence, but of his passion, his suffering, his love for humanity, and his resurrection.
If this shroud is genuine, It's as if we've been given a relic from the very moment of our redemption, a physical connection to the divine sacrifice.
So for centuries, skeptics have questioned, but now with science as an ally, we stand at the cusp of a new understanding.
This shroud could be the bridge where faith meets fact.
It challenges us to see beyond the skepticism, to touch the hem of history, to feel the weight of the cross in our hands.
This isn't merely about a cloth.
It's about the heart of Christianity and Western civilization.
The shroud, if truly from the time of Christ, speaks to the very essence of our belief, the incarnation, the crucifixion, and yes, the resurrection.
It invites us to a deeper reverence, to witness the tangible reality of God's love for us.
And so, in this episode of the Chronicles of the Christians, let's ponder this mystery with awe and wonder.
For if this shroud is what we believe it to be, then it's not just a piece of history.
It's a piece of heaven on earth.
A silent sermon of the greatest love story ever told.
And may this revelation guide us closer to the truth, closer to Christ, and closer to the peace that only He can bring.
Join us as we bring you to and tell you the story of the Shroud of Christ.
Shroud of Christ
Shroud of Christ All right, Jack Wasobiec, we're back.
The Chronicles of the Christians, and we're going through many of these Christian stories that haven't been told, and you're not going to hear this anywhere else, and certainly not in the mainstream media.
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I wanted to invite Joshua Lysak here on the program.
You know Joshua.
He was the co-author of the books Unhumans and Bulletproof.
But he's here today to talk to us about the Shroud of Turin.
Joshua, how are you?
I'm doing well.
Thanks for having me back on, Jack.
Of course.
So I think people, most people generally know the Shroud of Turin.
It's the shroud.
It's in Turin, Italy.
It is a full-length body shroud.
Some people think that it's actually just the face or the head, but it is actually, in fact, a full-length shroud.
And the idea is that many Orthodox Christians and Orthodox Catholics believe It to be the actual burial shroud of Christ and therefore the image and the stains essentially that are associated with this cloth are actually the image and stains of Christ himself and so we'll get into all of that because it is a bit confusing when people ask serious questions and of course this has been met with a lot of skepticism
over the years There was a carbon dating study back in the 80s that really led a lot of people to kind of put cold water on it because the carbon dating study came back and said, hey, we think this thing is a forgery.
It's not 2000 years old.
And yet there are new studies which were completed this year that actually tell a different story.
So given that sense, and we'll talk a little bit more about the history of it coming up, what are these new studies That purport to actually supersede that old carbon dating study.
Yes, that's right.
So Jack, many of us grew up hearing from secular sources like PBS, like History Channel, all of the background of the Shroud, which is that it does in fact have real bloodstains and there's analysis showing like ferritin, for example, is inside of it.
And so the story was, well, it was a medieval Forgery to be used as an evangelism tool, tourism, cash money making.
It was made to look real and just look at the carbon dating.
So this is the story of documentaries that we saw when many of us were in our formative years.
And it turns out that the carbon dating of the particular fabric seems to, in fact, be from a part of it that was repaired.
And so what's carbon dated is in fact the repair, not the shroud itself.
The new evidence that's come out is through x-rays and through isotope testing.
And the x-rays of the natural aging of the fiber seems to reveal that it is at least 2000 years old.
And the isotope testing seems to indicate that the fiber is from the Western Levant, specifically from the modern day Israel and surrounding areas.
Well, isn't that interesting?
And so this story of the shroud in public consciousness needs to be updated because for approximately 40 years, it's been incorrect.
Oh, that shroud is obviously a forgery.
It's a fake.
Of course, people of faith want to explain it away.
But I'm smart because I'm a skeptic.
And this is a story that the public has told themselves.
And so now that we know These revelations?
Oh, shoot!
It's 2,000 years old from Israel.
Does that mean it could be?
It totally could, couldn't it?
So let's go through this again.
The earlier carbon dating, as it turns out, was on a piece that was actually repaired.
And so it was a classical repair.
It was not done in modern times.
But it turns out that the part that was carbonated actually was from the repair.
It would be like saying that, oh, Notre Dame is only five minutes old because you tested a piece of it that was just repaired this year.
Obviously, these things, these relics, They do have repairs over time because life happens.
And we'll get into a little story about why it is, potentially, that it required repairs coming up in the program.
But I want to dig in some more on the actual cases.
Tell me, so there were two studies, essentially.
One was a material chemical study, and the other was an x-ray study.
Walk me through those.
Yes, so the x-ray, it's called a wide-angle x-ray scattering, WAG. And the goal is to analyze the flax fibers.
How much aging do they show?
So there's a baseline for how flax fibers that the shroud is made of.
How they age, right?
Is this fresh?
Is this a few decades old?
Is it a few hundred years old?
Or is it possibly thousands of years old?
And so the testing that's done here It's far superior to the testing that was done with the carbon business.
Because the way carbon testing is done is, carbon-14 is one of the more common types of testing, and it's how long has the carbon in this material been decaying for?
That's the evidence that it shows.
So that's when the thing died and was cut down.
Now, this is how a lot of people will say, well, what about carbon dating of fossils?
Well, that's a little bit more difficult because if there's not organic matter, You can't exactly tell how old it is.
And so there have been a number of skeptics of the skeptics for the age of various things.
That's a fun little rabbit hole to chase down.
We don't have to do that right now.
But the way that this new technology has shown is the shroud itself has to be approximately 2,000 years old, given the The signs of aging that have been demonstrated.
And so you might say that carbon-14 stands are down bad right now.
Yeah, no, they really are.
And so when it comes to this chemical analysis, what were some of the chemicals that were used?
And basically what they do, if I understand correctly, was they were comparing it to other, they had test cloths, basically, that they knew precisely where they had come from.
And so they had European cloths, they had cloths from the Mediterranean, they had cloths from the Levant, and they were doing comparative analysis to determine which one it lined up most directly with.
That's right, yes.
And when this story first broke, and we had a conversation about this a few months ago, Jack, it was pointed out that this shroud and its origin or its provenance, you might say, is eerily similar to those that have been found from Masada, which of course is the Jewish revolt fortress that fell to the Romans.
And there's Incredible artifacts that are still around to this day from the siege of Masada and that of course is in Israel and that's almost four decades after the life on earth of Jesus Christ and and by the way Masada is um and and longtime viewers of human events daily will remember that we did an episode at Masada actually climbing it two years ago And that is
practically right down the road, maybe 30 minutes drive from the cave at Qumran, where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, right on the banks overlooking the Dead Sea.
And one of the reasons the Ein Gedi Oasis, King David's Oasis is also there.
And one of the reasons that you can get materials that were preserved so well there is because along the banks of the Dead Sea, it is so arid and so dry That when these materials, the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example, were preserved in sealed clay jars and then sealed with wax, that those conditions were perfect.
It was a hermetic seal and there was, because of no humidity, there was no damage done whatsoever to these documents.
This is why the Dead Sea Scrolls were so important.
And so it makes an obvious use case to say, hey, if we've got some material from the same area that is cloth or linen and it was the Essenes, We're the group that had stayed at the Dead Sea Scrolls area.
So why not take some of the cloth from that same area just down the road at Masada and say, let's test that because we know for sure that this was part of the Jewish revolt, which happened.
And it's dated pretty closely to about 70 AD. So we're talking just a couple of decades after Christ's death and rebirth and resurrection in 33, give or take AD. 33 or 40, depending on your source.
I'm not going to get into that right now.
But the idea being was this was a major battle.
We are able, through Roman sources and Jewish sources and all sorts of contemporary sources, to really pinpoint down when Masada took place.
And that's the piece of cloth that the Shroud of Turin was most closely dated to.
Two thousand years old, not just a couple of hundred years old.
Meaning, they didn't have the technology back then to create a forgery this sophisticated.
Getting some more into that next with Joshua Leysen.
All right, Jack Posobiec, Human Events Daily, The Chronicles of the Christians, The Shroud of Christ.
This is our episode with Joshua Lysak providing an update on the possible Authentication of the Shroud of Turin.
Major news that took place this year, possibly with all the political and geopolitical news that's going on, this may actually have implications that are far beyond any other story or any other event that took place in 2024. And so that's why we thought that it was so important to actually tell this story and do an entire episode on the Shroud of Turin.
So just a quick backstory for anyone who really doesn't know where it came from or how it ended up in Italy.
So wait, obviously people know that the biblical narrative, of course, in the Gospels, that this all took place in Jerusalem.
So what's this shroud doing in Italy?
During the Crusades, and we did the episode on the Crusades with Blake Neff, as the Muslims, as the Caliphate, were sacking the Holy Land, many of the Crusaders realized that so many of these holy relics and so many of the issues that were going on at the time were potentially going to be lost or destroyed in these great battles.
That they took it upon themselves to preserve them and then actually bring the relics to Europe for safekeeping.
And so the earliest documented appearance of the Shroud is actually in France and in the possession of Geoffrey de Charnay, who was a French knight who and his family had been associated with the Crusades.
And in fact, going back even further, there are references through the Crusades during one of the battles of Constantinople and a French knight in 200 years prior to this,
this is really interesting, 200 years prior to this, had written that when he was in Constantinople he saw a cloth that was hanging up on full display within a major church in Constantinople.
This is again the heart of Byzantium and we talked in the Crusades episode about how The Crusades actually were a call from the Orthodox Church to the Western Church, to the Roman Church, saying, come and save us from these barbarians.
They're flooding throughout our lands.
They're flooding throughout the Holy Land.
We need help.
And so it was the Western Church coming to the aid of the Eastern Church Not some, you know, colonialism narrative, which is, of course, taught today.
So it really was a major effort and kept them at bay up until about 1400s.
So this French knight, who's Robert de Clary, is writing that when he was in Constantinople, he saw a cloth that bore the face of Jesus, and he referred to it as the image of Edessa,
also known as the Mandylion, which was brought from Edessa, which is in Ankara, now southern Turkey, sort of on the border with what is today Syria, and all the way back in 944 AD.
So even prior to the first crusade, about a thousand years before the first crusade, and basically the idea being that this image, this cloth which bore the face of Christ, was in fact the Shroud of Turin that we know was in fact the Shroud of Turin that we know today, and that these could have been the same cloth,
That it makes its way to Constantinople, which is the heart of Byzantium, the heart of the Eastern Empire, And then as the Eastern Empire falls, the Crusader Knights bring it back to Europe, France, and then later Italy for safekeeping.
And so the theory is that it was used during Easter rituals where it would have been displayed in the way that Christ would have been during the actual Passion, during the actual Holy Week itself.
And this is actually interesting that recent research has found micro particles of gold on the shroud which actually match the composition of gold that was used in Byzantium coinage during certain periods and this suggests that the shroud may have been kept in Constantinople during those times potentially displayed or kept with other relics in a setting that included Gold.
And one of the interesting pieces of this story, by the way, so Joshua, there we get the warfare, the fact that the shroud has been protected and preserved throughout the years.
But again, the gold coinage that was found also matches the gold coinage of Byzantium, which has always been the sort of oral history of the shroud.
That it made its way through Byzantium to Constantinople and then made its way to Europe.
So again, when they've conducted scientific analysis of the various, you know, it's sort of like Christian CSI, if you will, that it all matches up with the story that's always been told.
And a key point that I want to make here, and I'll ask you, In 944 AD, did the Byzantines have the ability to fake this type of chemical analysis, to fake this type of gold?
Obviously, we know that alchemy was being tried at this time quite proficiently, and people were attempting to do this, but as far as I know, it wasn't ever actually achieved.
So how would they have forged it?
Yeah, that's a good question.
We don't have reason to believe it was possible to forge something like this back then, especially to make it look to modern audiences like ours as if it was authentic.
So this is what is worth understanding about forgeries.
The idea of a forgery is to trick people in your present moment, your present place, and your present time that something is real.
And it's often for money-making purposes.
There's often a financial motivation for it to sell the thing.
By the way, you saw this with a lot of those missing link fossils and the skulls, you know, and someone say, this is how it happened in Europe and in the UK a lot.
They say, oh, this is the missing link between ape and man, and it turned out to be just, yeah, a built-on man, and it turned out to be like someone took a chimpanzee skull in someone's jaw and fused them together.
Yeah, I believe it was a pig's tooth and then a reconstructed skull was put around it to make people believe.
But the point of that was to make money, have this exhibition, charge for admission.
And it's a sort of a quick scam that you don't want to get found out soon enough.
So the Shroud of Turin does not show what we would anticipate to be a quick scam to make some money off of people who don't know any better.
It is sophisticated.
What I find interesting about its story is, and you can look up a number of studies on this, the types of other DNA evidence associated with it show that it has been touched by a lot of people and it has traces of pollen and other plants from Western Europe all the way across the Mediterranean, South Central Europe, Eastern Europe, and to the Middle East and back again.
And so the story of its adventure is in the Shroud itself.
So what we have done is we have debunked the debunking.
I remember when The Passion of the Christ was released with the Bell Gibson film in theaters in 2004, every public radio and public television station was wanting to do some sort of a public interest show around various Christian relics associated with the crucifixion and the resurrection.
And, of course, there was this great debunking of the Holy Sepulchre.
Well, it turns out that beneath everything, there is a slab with a cross stamped into it, which dates to approximately 100.
And this is, of course, after people have said, well, obviously, this is not the spot.
This is built by Constantine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You know the story.
So the secularists are down bad.
We have the story of the...
The veil of Veronica, which is of course the relic that was associated with the woman Veronica who wiped Jesus' face on his way to be crucified.
It seems as if the original one was destroyed in a fire in the 16th century, but reports from that time, writings from that time, is that the depictions of Jesus' face, which go back many centuries, match the appearance of the face on the veil of Veronica, which is interesting.
So we don't necessarily have all relics that remain, but those that we do have access to, the debunking around them is being debunked.
The more science is advancing.
And so this idea that these are sophisticated forgeries or even simple forgeries meant to make a quick buck off of poor, illiterate, devout religious believers who are silly and easily deceived because they want to be.
That's the story that new atheism has put out there.
Well, that is being Eliminated.
It's no longer a reasonable belief system.
And I'm almost imagining the bell curve meme that we've all seen, where you have the simple sun and then you have the enlightened one and then there's the enlightened midwit.
So the self-enlightened, self-important, egotistical midwit in the middle.
Well, it seems like the ends of the bell curve are the shroud is real.
And then we have the enlightened atheist in the middle who's running after all of the reasons it could be fake.
And in our previous episode, our lead-off episode here for Chronicles of the Christians, Blake Neff and I depicted how Christians and Christian monks and patrons of Christianity were spending the equivalent of billions of dollars to meticulously copy down the Bible word from word,
to build the great monasteries, the cathedrals, And in fact, every indication was that this wasn't done out of some cynical power grab and people lost and there was no money return.
There's no investment return on this.
And in fact, people actually did believe it and they spent untold sums of money in order to invest in this.
And so the same, I suppose, rubric would then pretend to the idea that these relics that when found were actually Probably checked out very scrupulously by the by the very same people who found them they were just going to take the word of some knight who shows up and says hey guys look what I got no in fact that the church and the monks and the priests and and the folks who were there actually did take very close care to determine
whether or not these things were authentic the same way that saint helena when she went to the holy in the first time in 300 325 A.D., that she was actually talking to people and conducting an investigation into where the site of the crucifixion was, as to where the Stone of Golgotha was, as to where the Tomb of Christ was, that so many of these things were actually not done out of some wanton, cynical belief,
but in fact were done out of devout and fervent belief that they were but in fact were done out of devout and fervent belief
The Stone of Golgotha All right, Jack Sobek back here.
The Chronicles of the Christians, the Shroud of Christ.
Now, Joshua, let's get into the actual image that was found on the shroud itself.
So we've talked about the shroud, the materials, the gold, the chemical analysis, the x-ray analysis.
But obviously, the most striking thing that people see is the image itself and that face.
It went viral so widespread a couple of months ago when the story started.
Also, there was Then I believe an AI recreation done of a potential using the entire shroud to put together the face that people could see from the shroud and it just looks identical to the Byzantine art that was done of Christ at the time, showing that there has to be some kind of link between these.
And I think, in my mind at least, it lends a lot of credence to the theory that the Shroud of Turin was in fact the cloth that was shown on full display in Constantinople prior to the sack of Constantinople and it goes back to those crusades and all the history there and the Western Church's attempt to save the Eastern Church and did so for hundreds of years, by the way.
But how could an image like this have been made?
Clearly, when I go and rub my face, I don't see images like this.
And even when I have an injury, I don't create images like this on any cloth.
And I've never seen any hospital show something like this.
So why would a cloth have an image like this on it?
Yes, so the very first hypothesis I heard was from skeptics who claimed that they could recreate something like this, where if you laid out, let's say, a face, a body, whether living or dead, and you wrapped this cloth around them tightly for long enough with the right oils, you would have an imprint left over afterwards.
And so the hypothesis was that That the whole backstory of going back to the Crusades was completely made up and it was performed this forgery in the 15th century for tourist attraction and making money off of people.
That's the cynical hypothesis of the skeptics that I first heard when I was a kid.
And the idea was that a real corpse that had real blood on it Hence the bloodstains was used to try to recreate a crucifixion victim because that's what it does seem to indicate that it shows the shroud.
And so these were skeptics who wanted to rip off believers and tell them that this was the real thing.
And so they went through the rigmarole of taking a corpse and giving it wounds to look like it was a crucifixion victim and then laid it out after putting white oils on it, leaving it out in the sun for a number of days to try to Imprint that facial appearance and the body and what we see is like the imprint of a person in the shroud.
That's the hypothesis that I first heard in order to debunk the faith position that this is the real deal in addition to the carbon dating.
Well, now that the carbon dating we know is not, it does not stand up compared to the x-ray and the isotope based analysis.
Well, what about this imprint idea?
Well, that Then goes to show, okay, it was then forged by sophisticated people 2,000 years ago?
Why?
There wasn't a motivation or a means to make money off of believers, pilgrims, because there really wasn't pilgrimage yet 2,000 years ago, the way that we think about it.
At that time, the early church was plural.
It was churches in various places that the apostles themselves There are Christian art symbols, like the fish.
We have the cross.
We have the name of Christ that goes back to the very end of the first century, depictions of that time.
But these are a new faith, a new religion, small groups of people, not a sophisticated operation to make money off of them.
The New Testament had not yet been entirely compiled yet.
So the hypothesis We're going to scam people and make a quick buck off of a forgery completely breaks down when you realize that it's 2000 years old.
Okay then, how did the face and the body and the shape of this crucifixion victim get there?
Then the hypothesis is that it was a flash of light that effectively burned this image into the fabric.
The idea being that the moment a corpse became a living person Again, at the moment of the resurrection, there was an immense flash of light that burned the reversal of death itself into the shroud, which is a powerful story.
And skeptics will, of course, start protesting and screaming and coping.
Well then, let's go into that.
Let's just go into that a little bit more.
So the idea being that people have conducted, scientists have conducted experiments with linen and attempted to create images on the linen.
And there have been instances where they've been able to do so, but they've only been able to do so with intense bursts of radiation, using essentially something akin to ultraviolet light.
And this is extremely advanced technology, nothing that would have been available to anyone in the Middle Ages through any secular process, shall we say.
And in doing so, The problem is that it creates an intense amount of heat at the same time.
So they're able to create the image, but the linen itself is usually burned and perhaps destroyed in the process.
And so the idea that essentially what's on the image is sort of like a photographic negative.
That when you see an intense burst of light, we all remember, or I suppose the Zoomers in the audience might have to learn about this in history books about what a photo negative is and how that process works.
So it is created through the use of flash photography and an intense burst of light.
The only problem being then, if you had that amount of light With the radiation, in order for the linen itself to survive, it would require an intense burst of light emanating from The inside of the linen so emanating from whatever was enclosed within this linen in all directions so three-dimensional in all directions at the same time but without heat so intense light
without heat and scientifically we know that that is really the only answer to what could have created this linen The only problem is we don't have the technology to do something like that now and certainly at no point in the medieval period or even in the Renaissance period did anyone have this level of technology and as we say the linen itself has been dated back and in fact the stains have
been dated back to 2000 years.
The question is Would it have had to have been some process that is other than natural?
Yes, so this is what I find interesting.
The same time the AI Jesus comparing the Shroud of Turin to the earliest paintings and drawings and illustrations of Jesus, and it's like, why do they all look the same?
From all over both Western and Eastern, the earliest depiction of Jesus all look the same.
Why is that?
Were they copying one another?
What was the original image?
Well, we may very well have it now.
Around the same time of the viral memeing of the AI-based Jesus, the shroud turned into an AI image.
Around the same time, there was another visual that went viral, which is that apparently, and you can look this up yourselves, I highly recommend it.
At the moment of conception, when a sperm meets an egg cell and life is created, There is a zinc-based reaction that emits a powerful flash of light.
So search, moment of conception, light.
And there's an incredible burst of light.
And I'm not the only person who put those two together.
These are both going viral everywhere.
At the same time, is there...
Now, I could just be simply comparing the two.
No relation whatsoever.
But is it possible that a scientific analysis of a resurrection of a corpse from being a dead body to being a living one again emits an immense flash of light because this is a biological process of where to believe the story of Jesus?
Well, that's interesting, isn't it?
The skeptics' arguments don't hold up because the technology required to do this, as you've described, Did not exist in the 15th century.
It did not exist in the 12th or 13th century.
It certainly didn't exist 2,000 years ago.
And the means and the motive for creating a forgery had not existed yet.
We're going back to the ancient times.
Then people will say, well, they took a 2,000 year old piece of fabric in the 15th century.
But that's not how forgeries were done.
They grabbed a pig's tooth from a field In the early 1900s and said, look, it's the real deal.
It's the missing link.
It's millions of years old.
That's not how they did not go to try to find a fossilized pig's tooth, for example, because the goal of a forgery is to scan people very quickly.
And so the bigger question for us is, could this forgery actually not be a forgery at all?
All right, Jack Posobiec, Joshua Lysek, we are back.
Final segment of the Shroud of Christ, this installment of the Chronicles of the Christians.
We told you the story connecting the Crusades to the history of the Shroud.
We've shown you how through chemical x-ray and even materials analysis That the shroud does, in fact, stand up to scrutiny.
And so, Joshua, one of the questions that a lot of skeptics always give to believers is that, well, you know, if all of this were true, you know, why didn't God leave some proof?
Why didn't Jesus leave some proof of his resurrection?
Why not leave some, you know, source?
Source, you know, like the classic Reddit response.
Why didn't you leave a source?
And for so many, for so many years, it's always been taken as an article of faith.
And that, well, we have faith in the Gospel.
We have faith in the Old Testament.
Which, by the way, prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 1940s, there were people who said the Old Testament was just a bunch of stories.
And then people found the Dead Sea Scrolls, which lined up exactly.
And we talked about the meticulous copying of the Bible word for word down through the centuries.
Well, suddenly you've got a copy from almost...
Day one, you know, a sort of unedited version and they went back and they found it was a one-to-one.
It was one-to-one in terms of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the current Bible.
That in fact, the work of those monks and those monasteries over the centuries was done with reverence and it was not edited for political purposes or things like that.
Certainly other editions have been, but we could talk about that some other time.
And the point being is that so many items from the Old Testament, the location of Sodom and Gomorrah, has actually been uncovered.
So many things have been uncovered that people are really going back and questioning that, well, if all of this is true, and wait a minute, the Shroud of Turin suddenly The idea is, well, perhaps the evidence has been with us all along, and perhaps the evidence was given to people with this copy of the Shroud of Turin.
What are the implications of this?
The implication of this is that the days of projecting skepticism, doubt, cynicism onto relics and rituals of faith, those days are coming to an end.
I remember how when people would think about some of these most famous relics and places, this idea is, well, obviously people would say it's the real shroud, or it's the real veil, or it's the real cross of Christ, or it's the real spear that pierced Jesus' side, or it's the real whatever.
If I was doing that, well, I would just be doing that to make money off of people trying to trick the believers, and I would just try to make them, right?
It's that modern-day money-focused projection.
From the Western skeptic.
But when you understand, for example, that, and this is my understanding, that in the Catholic tradition, in order to confirm, the process of confirming a miracle having occurred is nothing like the evangelical megachurch experience where someone will report that they've had a miracle.
There will be no tests.
And then they will go viral, and then they will get a New York Times bestselling memoir book deal out of the experience and cash in on their claims.
But In the process of confirming a miracle has occurred in the Catholic tradition, you must demonstrate you have not received any kind of compensation for your story or for your claim.
There must be multiple religious and secular physicians associated with your previous diagnosis.
And there must be a diagnosis.
There must be a paper trail.
So the process of confirming a miracle has occurred is to remove All skepticism.
To remove all alternate explanations of it having occurred.
That is the same, let's say, world view or process that has been applied to the protection of the Bible, of these relics.
And it is a great undertaking.
It has been very expensive, as you and Blake have talked about, in order to do these things, in order to hand copy the Bible, in order to maintain accuracy.
And skeptics will say, well, there's an occasional typo.
Yeah, okay, well, what does that show?
All good books have typos in them, right?
And so the meta-narrative here that we're observing is that we have reason to be skeptical about the skepticism and that this doubt that we see surrounding Christian rituals and stories and doctrines is based on cynicism and the want not to believe it, a desire not to accept it.
And sometimes it's, well, I had a bad experience with this church when I was a kid.
I had an abusive parent who was very devoutly religious.
Therefore, all religion is bad and I will be a new atheist.
And I'll read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.
Well, even Dawkins himself has pointed out that he considers himself a cultural Christian because the stories of Christianity bring about Western civilization.
And if we lose that, we lose the West.
And that's why atheism is falling out of public favor.
And it's a low status position now to put on that you're an atheist.
And we're seeing this great sea change also with the election of Donald J. Trump and him wishing happy birthday to the Blessed Virgin Mary with his posting of St. Michael's, the Archangel's prayer on his social media and other activities that he's done honoring the Roman Catholic Church, honoring Christians in general of all denominations.
Now, faith is not this silly little thing for silly people, but you're seeing the enlightened, the intelligent, the educated finding meaning in this, finding meaning in Christianity that had been lost and realizing rejection of Christianity was based on projection of doubters, skeptics, naysayers who had their own ends and means for doing so.
And really, it's...
As it comes in, it's almost like, and just as we finish up here, it's almost, and by the way, we encourage skepticism.
I certainly do.
I'm skeptical of the mainstream narrative.
But the problem is you don't want to make skepticism your religion either, and you don't want to make it an article of faith.
And so, Joshua, and I know you said this earlier this year, but congratulations to you on, through the process of all of this, regaining your faith as well.
Where can people follow you?
I'm on X, YouTube, everywhere, at Joshua Lysak.
At Joshua Lysak.
Ladies and gentlemen, Shroud of Turin, Shroud of Christ.
This has been Chronicles of the Christian.
Stay tuned because we have so much more.
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