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April 27, 2023 - ParaNaughtica

01:31:11

James Huberty and the McDonalds Massacre - Part 2

Todays episode will conclude the story of James Huberty, the San Ysidro McDonalds shooter. The year is 1984. Twenty-one people would lose their lives and another nineteen would be wounded. It's a terrible tale, and a bloody one. Our hearts go out to all families of all murder victims. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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	Thank you.
	Well, actually, somebody told me once not to stare at the sun, so you know what I did?
	You stared at the sun?
	That's right, Coop.
	I used to time myself and see how long I could stare at it, you know, like try to outdo myself each time.
	Oh my...
	God, man.
	I think my record was 47 seconds without blinking once, bro.
	What the fuck is wrong with you, dude?
	Are you not blind?
	I mean, nothing is wrong with me as far as the doctors tell me.
	I can see just fine.
	Like, no issues at all.
	I think I can actually see better than I did before, now that you mention it.
	That's fucking unreal, dude.
	That is not good to do.
	People, kids, ladies, gentlemen, please.
	Do not stare at the sun, no matter how enticing it sounds, no matter how fucking appealing that thought is.
	Don't fucking do it.
	Yeah, no, I mean, I have to say, personally, I don't recommend it.
	I'm just, you know, a little bit different.
	You know, I'm different.
	Scientists, the scientist people, they want to take my eyes for study, but I said, hell no, back up off my shit, motherfucker!
	Yo, white coats!
	Ain't no one taking these babies from me.
	Dead or alive.
	Well, maybe they want your, you know, your cones and your rods, bro.
	Well, I'll give them a rod, alright.
	By the way, when was this?
	When this person told you to not stare at the sun?
	Boy, I have to cast back pretty far for that, but if my memory serves me correct, and usually it does, probably two or three weeks ago, I'd say, you know, like, give or take.
	What the fuck, man?
	Well, don't worry about it, bro.
	You know those eyes are under a contractual agreement, right?
	Sure, sure.
	It's all good, man.
	No damaged goods here.
	Trust me, dude.
	Well, alright, man.
	Anyway, you remember those stupid criminals we talked about in the beginning of last week's episode?
	Oh, fuck yeah, dawg.
	The permanent marker bandits.
	Sure. Well, I figured we'd just roll that over here into part two and just, you know, make a...
	Just say a couple quick stories here before we get into the outrageously popular 3 for 3. Oh, yeah.
	The 3 for 3 is becoming, like, our most requested segment.
	And, yeah, that's perfect.
	Excellent choice.
	It's the first course of this large multi-course dinner that y'all paid for.
	Just getting the pallet prepared for the main course.
	The amuse-bouche.
	If you will.
	And it's a heavy one.
	It sure is.
	So first, Benjamin Robinson, 30 years old, and Daniel Hutchinson, age unknown, from Skagnes, Lincolnshire in England over there, they were given a six-month suspended sentence after taking pictures of themselves stealing thousands of pounds from gambling machines.
	First, hold on, okay.
	Skagnes? Super gangster name for one of your aunts, you know?
	Oh, bloody hell.
	Must have been Auntie Skegnus again.
	She's really been spending pennies this morning.
	Sure sounded like a real battle in there.
	You know, there's a town in Alaska called Scratch Inkle.
	I didn't know that, but I do recall that there's a town named Dildo in Newfoundland, Canada, though.
	Oh, the queen sure loves her dildo, even in death.
	Or whatever that guy said, you know, remember?
	I do remember that, yeah.
	Yeah, she sure loves her dildo there.
	But, yeah, and there's a coward in South Carolina.
	Well, yeah.
	And a what cheer in Iowa.
	Oh boy, sounds like a lovely time.
	Sure is.
	But what's more interesting about Iowa, in my opinion, is have you seen how the counties are mapped out there?
	No, I haven't.
	Well, look at this.
	Here, I'll slide this piece of paper over there to you.
	Here you go.
	Oh, okay, let me see what we got here.
	Ah, okay, yeah.
	Pretty interesting, right?
	It's like the most boring game of Tetris, where all the blocks are the same.
	I know.
	But the next criminal is a man named Andrew Henels.
	And this happened in Kingsland, Northfolk, England.
	Now, this isn't as bad as those two teens who called in their bank robbery ahead of time.
	Oh, yeah.
	They just made it super easy for the cops to be there and arrest them.
	Yeah, that was pretty good criminally.
	But Andrew posted on his Facebook that he was going to head over to the supermarket named Tesco to rob the place, which he did with a knife.
	And he successfully sold 410 pounds in cash, or about 510 US dollars.
	And about 15 minutes later, well, he was arrested and he'd be jailed for four years.
	Well, I suppose that was worth it.
	You know, planned out super well, too.
	Even the apprehension.
	Yeah, and this next one happened in Afghanistan.
	But a Taliban commander who was suspected of blowing some shit up over there, he was wanted.
	And so he walked into a police checkpoint back in 2012 and pointed to a wanted poster with his face on it.
	And asked for the reward being offered.
	And that reward was?
	It was a $100 finder's fee.
	Well, what do you do, you know?
	Exactly. But this next one was a dude named Dean Smith.
	He was 27 years old at the time, back in 2014.
	And he had gone to a local branch of Barclays in the Welsh village of Treyorky.
	Over there in Rhonda Sinantaf.
	Glamorgan, Wales.
	Oh, yeah.
	Beautiful place.
	I've been there.
	Yeah, I totally love it there, bro.
	Just destroyed that.
	I mean, can you say that?
	Say that.
	Let me, yeah, it's, let's see here.
	Welsh village of Treorky over there in Rhondesanantaf, mid-Glamorgan, Wales.
	Yeah, beautiful place.
	Yeah, totally.
	Well, Dean had gone into Barclays to change his address, and in so doing, he gave his complete identity to the employee working with him.
	And Dean had noticed all that sweet, sweet cash just sitting in all the tills, you know, not being used for anything.
	So about a half an hour later, he walked back in with his disguise of sunglasses and a pair of socks over his shoes.
	Oh, socks over the shoes.
	How fashion forward.
	But he demanded the cash and the cashier refused that demand.
	And Dean left the building, defeated, and returned home.
	And the disguise failed to work and the police, well, only paid a visit to his place of residence.
	And he was jailed for two and a half years for attempted robbery and having a knife.
	Two and a half years seems pretty light, but they must have just, like, read the account and, you know, heard the account from the cashier and they were like, yeah, this dude's clearly harmless, so we'll just let him out after two and a half years.
	Yeah, such an idiot.
	Just came in here and gave every piece of information to you, his address and everything, and it comes back in with just a pair of sunglasses and a pair of socks over his shoes?
	Give me all that money.
	He just didn't want, like, he didn't want to leave a trace of his tread pattern.
	I don't get what he was thinking there, man.
	Couldn't have the distinct human footprint, you know?
	What, did a wallaby come in here?
	Right. Well...
	As you know, it's time for the segment of the show that everyone comes back for, the famous Trey Portray.
	Trey Portray.
	Woo-hoo! Yeah!
	Thanks for the introduction, Coop.
	Our first story of the 3 for 3 takes us right into Moscow.
	I love it there.
	I go there every spring.
	Yes. Well, the other day, you might want to think about maybe booking a different city because recently, a powerful blast shook a Russian city near the border of Ukraine, which residents figured was a Ukrainian attack, as you would in the midst of this war that we have going on.
	But the Russian military actually copped to it.
	A short time later, saying that it was one of their bombs that they accidentally dropped from one of their warplanes on their own city.
	Woo, boy.
	Amazing. Yeah.
	Now, I'm just thinking, do you think it was maybe done on purpose?
	Because, you know, I know a lot of Russians.
	Are, like, literally killing themselves so they aren't drafted into the war.
	And so I know there are a lot of defectors.
	And I'm wondering, maybe this pilot or whoever's in this plane or whatever, they were like, you know what, fuck this shit.
	Let's drop this on our own fucking city.
	Let's, you know, fuck Putin, basically.
	Or was it an accident?
	You know, that's a good counterpoint.
	I could totally see it.
	You know, just, like, I feel like it'd be tough to come away from that, though, with your life.
	So like the person who, you know, would be dropping this bomb would then think, well, they're going to know who I am.
	They know who's up in this plane.
	They know who's flying this bitch.
	So as soon as I come down after dropping this bomb on our city, like they're going to kill me.
	So there's that part of it.
	But also, we don't know for sure that it wasn't a Ukrainian drone.
	The military could just be saying, oh, it was us, it was us, it's our bad, because they'd rather admit that they made a mistake other than Ukraine is successfully somehow bombing into their city because everybody would panic.
	I get it.
	Yeah, like a little bit of propaganda.
	Exactly. They're just like, no, we did it because we know Ukrainians never do this to us, to the motherland.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Supposedly, according to reports, the bomb left a 66-foot-wide crater in the middle of a tree-lined boulevard, and some windows were shattered, some apartment buildings had damage, several cars were damaged, and two residents were injured.
	But as far as I know, there were no actual deaths.
	Very surprising.
	But that's also what the Russians would tell you.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And a lot of people immediately, of course, were like, it's Ukraine!
	It's Ukraine!
	Like, it's this new weapon!
	It's these weapons!
	And Russia was like, no, no, no.
	Nope, that was us.
	It was us.
	It was all us.
	It was an accident.
	That's all they said, though.
	They didn't go into any further details.
	Well, regardless if that pilot did it on purpose or not, I think he still has the same outcome.
	You know what I mean?
	Oh, yeah.
	Probably. Yeah, that's a good point.
	Yeah. He's probably dead either way, honestly.
	In that case, I'm going to have to shoot you.
	Just, you know, take some out.
	Well, that's from that corner of the world.
	Our next story is out of the UK.
	I don't know if you heard about this, Coop, but there was an ultra-marathon runner, a distinguished ultra-marathon runner, someone who set several records in the past.
	Was disqualified from her ultramarathon because she cheated by using a car for a portion of the race.
	What do you think about that?
	Shoot her.
	Take her out back.
	Shoot her.
	Whoa, bro.
	Nah, I'm just kidding, man.
	Damn. I think, you know, she's...
	She's cheating, man.
	I don't agree with it.
	I think that's horrible.
	Yeah, so the crazy part about it is she took third, right?
	So there was fanfare, and she's crossing the finish line, and there's people taking pictures, and she accepted these trophies, and she went on a podium and had pictures taken.
	And at no point did she say anything about A, the car excursion, or B, give a reason, you know, or like say, hey, by the way.
	I'm not running this race competitively.
	Now, later, after it came out and her times were discovered, so race officials reviewed her time data from her chip, and they found that some portions of her miles were completed at, like, above superhuman speeds.
	Like, she did one mile stretch in, like, a minute 40. You know what I mean?
	So... I mean, she knew that there are chips and, you know, they have to carry these chips somewhere on them, whatever, to...
	Document, record their movements, right?
	So how did she not think that that would be found?
	Exactly. Exactly.
	And the only excuse she offered later was that, quote, the race didn't go to plan.
	She was feeling sick during the race and wanted to drop out.
	And she's cooperated fully with race organizers during the investigation.
	And she feels genuinely sorry for any upset that she caused.
	And it's just sort of, yeah, it's just really embarrassing, bro.
	So she went along with the whole charade, and then she got discovered and then was like, oh, I wasn't in my right head.
	I made a mistake.
	I should have given it back.
	And race officials were like, yeah, why didn't you?
	Like, you had all these opportunities to say, hey, I drove.
	I injured myself.
	Like, I couldn't finish in the time I wanted.
	Sorry. Right.
	Which still would have been sensational.
	She was just hoping to get away with it.
	She got caught, and now she's like, I'm sorry.
	I got sick.
	I think she should be disqualified from running any race in the future.
	I do feel like maybe she should have some kind of a lengthy ban from competing just to discourage any future endeavors of this kind.
	Because if she just gets a little slap on the wrist, what's not to stop someone else for trying to get away with it in a craftier way?
	No, exactly.
	I mean, hopefully sportsmanship.
	You go through all this training for an ultramarathon, and all these people are putting their bodies through this tough thing, and she basically just said, fuck you guys.
	So thankfully, her conduct was discovered, and Mel Sykes was awarded third place for her finish time of 7 hours and 32 minutes and 58 seconds.
	So the rightful third place winner now has been awarded.
	Good. Good.
	Yes. Yes.
	Well, I mean, she was just lying by omission is what that is.
	Yeah, I really do feel like she would have carried it through, you know, and then it would have come out and then she'll write a book or the time I cheated it, you know, I mean, who knows?
	All these stupid fucking lies to manipulate people.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Exactly. Well, now we're going to step out of the ordinary and we're going to go to the extraordinary coop.
	How do you feel about that?
	Yeah. I'm so stoked now.
	Yes, let's do this.
	This story comes from Sky News at news.sky.com.
	Two men have admitted to removing parts of another man's body for content of a subgroup of people who are into extreme body modification and watching videos of it occur live.
	Wow. What do you make of that, my friend?
	I'm interested.
	I wish you would continue to tell us the details of this article.
	Yeah, so apparently there was a ringleader of this subgroup of people named Marius Gustafson.
	He volunteered to have two other men who have been named in these criminal proceedings to remove part of his nipple.
	As well as his penis and parts of his leg.
	Wow. Yeah.
	Apparently all three of them are part of a group that advertises extreme body modification.
	They record their get-togethers when they're doing these extreme procedures.
	And people have to subscribe in order to watch the content.
	So they get money from that.
	Then they turn around and they sell these body parts.
	For more money, sort of like a black market body part trade.
	So all of this has been discovered.
	It's been brought out in the open.
	This is in the UK, by the way.
	And all of these men are being charged with...
	I think the government was like, no, this is not something that we condone.
	So they're charging them with conspiracy to commit grievous bodily harm and multiple counts of committing grievous bodily harm.
	And yeah, they're all going to go to prison.
	For sure.
	I see here one of the defendants, a man named...
	Oh, it's a nurse, Nathan Arnold.
	He pled guilty to the theft of local anesthetics, lidocaine, from the Chelsea and Westminster Hospital.
	And he also accepted a further offense of possessing extreme pornography.
	Yeah, so authorities have determined that in order to carry out these procedures without people, you know, dying...
	These men had access to certain medications that were necessary for the procedures and also had, like, you know, one of them was a surgeon, one of these people who's named in the complaint.
	He's an actual surgeon, so he actually carried out the procedures.
	He has medical training, and this is all happening below ground, like, you know, under the table.
	These are not sanctioned operations that are happening in a clean and sterile plastic surgery or body modification suite or something.
	It's all just like this ring of guys who are into extremes agreeing to do this heinous shit to each other and anybody else who's willing, by the way.
	Yeah, so they're all going down.
	That's insane.
	And the website...
	It's a dedicated website, and it's called The Eunuch Maker.
	Yep, yep.
	So essentially, they are turning each other into eunuchs, willingly, willingly.
	And they sell the penises and testicles on the black market then.
	Yeah. The practice is actually called gender—it's genital nullification.
	So the nickname of these people when they undergo this, they're called nullos.
	And it's a subculture where men become these nullos, and they have their penis and their testicles removed, and then other people pay to receive those body parts.
	It is crazy, dude.
	That's so fucked, man.
	Talk about psychology, man.
	I don't know what goes to your head to think, you know what, I want to be a eunuch.
	I'm going to cut my balls and my dick off.
	Oh, self-castration and shit, which we're going to do an episode on pretty soon here on self-castration.
	Oh, right on.
	There are some...
	Well, fuck, maybe we should call up one of these guys.
	Yeah, no shit, huh?
	Start a little dialogue with them in prison and just see about the ins and outs of their trade.
	Oh, I like what you did there.
	Yeah. But yeah, that wraps up our three for three.
	We covered a lot of ground, a lot of different ground there.
	And yeah, join us next week for another...
	Well, okay.
	Last week we left off where James was preparing to protect himself and his family from then-President Reagan the Ragster and good old-fashioned Jimmy Cartwheeler Carter and their goon squad who James thought were after him.
	He also thought that the commies were going to invade the United States, and in response, he stockpiled non-perishable foods and many weapons.
	And he was also being fired from the Babcock and Wilcox company where he worked, and, you know, things are not looking too good for James.
	In his mind, he had enough of being the doormat for the entire world.
	Yeah, it's gonna get pretty rough here.
	Yes, it is.
	So let's pick up where he's being let go from the company.
	James would actually be one of many to be laid off in the Babcock and Wilcox company, but in his mind, he was the only one, as if he alone was being singled out.
	I mean, that was his mentality, at least.
	And it was at this point that, as Etna recalls, Etna, his wife, that James started to hear voices, but it is unclear what these voices were saying, if they were saying anything at all.
	You'll need to buy a new calendar to hang on the wall by the telephone to keep important notes.
	Get a Clarissa Explains It All poster for Zelia and a Cheers poster for the younger one, Cassandra.
	You should pick up a new pocket protector for yourself.
	And maybe Etna could use a new waffle iron since she broke the last one over your back.
	You know, there was nothing I wanted more when I was a little girl.
	There's nothing I wanted more than when I was a little girl than a Cheers poster.
	Oh, yeah.
	I feel like what a great way to connect with today's youth or even then's youth.
	Yeah. Cheers poster.
	Hey, man.
	Cheers was huge in the 80s when this was going on, so who knows?
	That's true.
	That's true.
	Yeah, maybe, dude.
	Maybe. So Etna says that after he was let go from the Babcock and Wilcox company, James had become extremely withdrawn and hopeless.
	And in early 1983, James put a revolver to his head and tried to convince himself to pull the trigger.
	But Etna was able to convince him to do otherwise as she literally struggled to pull the gun away from his head.
	And he would later tell her that she should have just let him shoot himself.
	That's a pretty crazy image to just imagine her, like, hanging off of his arm, just like, James, no!
	And he's like, just got the gun, like, trying to come up to his head.
	I mean, what if she, I know this is crazy, and it's all dark, but what if she had just let him do it?
	And all these people's lives would have been spared, but I know we're getting to that.
	Despite this low point in James' life, he pushed on and found another job, welding with the Union Metal Manufacturing Company in Ohio.
	And, you know, he may have been down, but he certainly was not out.
	The Hubertys were also trying to sell their six-unit apartment building during this time, and it seemed like they were on their way to finalize the sale.
	And while things were looking, you know, relatively good for James, he decided that he would enjoy these happy times with one of his daughters by going out on a nice little motorcycle ride one fine afternoon.
	Because who doesn't enjoy a good bike ride every now and then?
	You know, out there on the roads, the beautiful scenery.
	Oh yeah, Ohio is well known for the scenery of cornfields and scary ass trees.
	Really though, they have some pretty creepy trees over there.
	And cemeteries actually.
	It's a spooky area of the country, that's for sure.
	And so they were cruising around, smiles, smiles on their faces as they rode along having a great time.
	And then suddenly, something happened.
	And they were involved in an accident.
	Oh, man.
	James was left with neck injuries and permanent nerve damage in one of his hands and arm, causing occasional tremors.
	And because of these injuries, James was unable to continue to weld as a means of employment.
	And this was obviously another devastating blow for him to realize.
	This guy cannot catch a break.
	He has, like, the most miserable life.
	It's one thing after the other.
	So now, some say this accident happened after the Union Metal Manufacturing Company had closed down, making him unemployed again.
	But others say the accident happened first, causing him permanent injuries, which prevented him from being employed.
	And then the manufacturing plant closed down five weeks after that, which is what I think happened.
	One way or the other, the sale of the apartment building went through, but there were still some issues with the sale that needed to be worked out.
	Apparently there were some legal problems because a real estate company had made a really good offer, which James was going to agree to, but then the company reneged on its end of the deal.
	But it is said that they did sell it for around $115,000 in the spring of 1983, which in today's dollars is, I don't know, roughly $320,000.
	The ultimate plan that James and Aetna came up with was that they would sell the apartment building and their house, take the money from the sales, And with this plan in mind,
	they sold the apartment building, and soon after, they sold their house for about $12,000 in cash, or about $34,000 today.
	Nice chunk of cash to be holding on to.
	Yeah, yeah, they made out with the money, that's for sure.
	The couple then applied for some sort of residency status in Mexico, which they were granted, and everything seemed to be falling right into place for the Hubertys for once.
	Leaving most of their things behind, the Hubertys gathered the essentials, such as all the weapons and ammunition, of course, and survival supplies.
	and then they headed off to Tijuana, Mexico.
	Nothing but playas and margaritas.
	Apparently everyone except for James was having a great time in early 1980s Tijuana.
	And while Edna and the girls were quick to make friends with the neighbors, it is said that James was his usual self.
	Petulant, churlish, saturnine, tenebrous, tenebrific, you know, pouty and sourpussed.
	Talk about a miserly person.
	Like, who was that lady?
	Louise Monnier?
	My god, those two would have made it, like, a most spectacular couple, bro.
	Now, I'm not sure if Etna and the girls knew more Spanish than James, but it is known that James did not speak a whole lot of Spanish, and apparently not enough to find a job.
	It wasn't long before James realized that his plan wasn't exactly panning out like he had envisioned it would.
	He couldn't find any employer willing to hire him.
	And whether that was due to the severity of his injuries from the motorcycle crash, or his ineptitude to work with others, or if it was because he was a gringo from Ohio who didn't speak Spanish, or maybe it was a combination of all those things among others.
	I guess we'll never truly know.
	He also realized that the money they brought with them wasn't lasting as long as they thought it would.
	And at the end of a very, very long three months, James relocated the family back into the United States to San Isidro, California.
	Three months.
	Three months, bro.
	You know a hemorrhoid can last longer than that.
	Yeah, and well, according to the National Institutes of Health, anything lasting longer than three months is considered chronic, and you should probably get that checked.
	CBDs, my brother.
	C-B-Ds.
	But seriously, as in all seriousness, that's about three generations of housefly.
	They stayed there as long as it took for three houseflies to, you know, gestate, be born, grow to maturity, and then die.
	That is interesting.
	Now, I see the way you're looking at me right now, and it seems like you have something else.
	I do, actually.
	Thanks for asking.
	I've been meaning to tell you this for a long time.
	Mayflies live about 24 hours, the shortest lifespan.
	Wow, that is pretty short.
	Now, do you think Trump...
	Would live longer than a Mayfly or a Jeffrey Epstein in jail?
	You know, Epstein had guilt, and I think it killed him off a little faster.
	I don't think Trump feels guilty about anything, bro.
	He could probably hold out in there for quite some time.
	Teflon Don.
	He would be the Don.
	He would be running the place.
	That would be fucking hilarious, bro.
	He's got all his homie inmates on a table, whatever, around a table, and he's like, Nah, you're fired!
	Just fucking giving these guys jobs to do, but they're just not doing a good job in jail.
	Yeah, higher security, so nobody messes with them.
	Everyone's coming up like, Yo, Don, what's up?
	What's good, my homie?
	What's up, man?
	Yeah. So San Ysidro was a predominantly poor area of San Diego at the time.
	And once back in the U.S., the Hubertys posted up at the Cottonwood Apartments, which was actually a large apartment complex with multiple apartment buildings.
	Where they lived stood about the length of a football field to the east of a consistently busy McDonald's restaurant.
	And the plan was to live there for the time being, you know, while James could hopefully land a job, you know, that he could hold.
	And luckily for him, San Ysidro was a predominantly English-speaking area in the United States, so it wouldn't be difficult to find a job when compared with his experience in Tijuana, Mexico, a predominantly Spanish-speaking area of Mexico.
	So clearly, he had a better chance of finding work.
	Maybe a little bit better.
	I do think the attitude is probably a huge part of it.
	There are probably people down there in Tijuana that saw him coming 10 miles away, and they're like, I'm not hiring this motherfucker.
	He looks like a piecer.
	Yeah, just super miserly walking up to them.
	What are you brownies up to?
	Oh, man.
	Yeah, he'd be yelling at them, like, Speak English!
	Speak English!
	I don't speak Spanish good.
	So something that really chipped away at James, though, something that was just really grinding his gears about the Cottonwood Apartments, was that he detested the fact that he and his wife and their two lovely daughters were the...
	only white people in the entire apartment building.
	This affected him so much that he was outwardly and purposefully rude to all of the neighbors.
	What an ass, dude.
	I totally called it about this guy.
	He moves into this apartment building, which is obviously already full of tenants that have been living there for, you know, however long.
	He comes in and he gets angry at them because his family is the only white family.
	The newest family.
	Man, douche.
	Yeah. But Edna and the girls, you know, they had no issues with anyone else.
	I mean, sure, they must have felt a little out of place, you know, at least at first.
	And they were certainly embarrassed by all of their father's bullshit by being a total prick to everybody.
	But they just wanted to be done with all of the moving around, and they just wanted to settle down somewhere and be stable.
	So one day...
	James is sitting around reading the newspaper looking for a job, as usual, and he spots an ad offering a federally funded security guard training program, which he applied for despite the random twitches that his hand and arm would do out of nowhere, and of which he had no control over.
	And to be noted, I'm not sure which hand or arm was injured in the motorcycle accident, so it might not have been his trigger finger hand, just to be fair.
	Still, either way, I mean, you gotta have total and complete control.
	As any kind of security person hired to do that job.
	And here you can have this arm that randomly spasms out.
	Like, I don't know, dude.
	That's a tough sell.
	That's going to be the future of what's going to happen in this country.
	Like, all the police are going to be, like, you know, deformed in some way or the other.
	Turrettes. You know, limping.
	Because everything has to be fair, right?
	Everything has to be fair nowadays.
	Right, everything's gotta be fair, so everyone needs a, you know, an equal shot even if you're not qualified, so, you know.
	Right. This guy's got two broken arms and two broken legs.
	Let's make him chief.
	You're paraplegic?
	Perfect. Just what we need in this police department.
	Or, you know, like...
	You know what it'll be.
	It'll be an animal.
	It'll be like, I swear, man, this animal's more of a human than the humans I know, man.
	Let's give him a badge and a gun, bro.
	Like, just a bunch of like...
	Fucking apes, monkeys, and primates and shit.
	Strap a cowboy hat on them.
	Put a gun around their waist.
	Let's be fair.
	Make him the boss.
	Yeah, totally.
	Well, surprisingly, even to him, he was accepted into the program and completed the course on April 12, 1983.
	And soon after, he was hired on with a security firm in Chula Vista, which is the second largest city in the San Diego metropolitan area of California.
	James is given the assignment to guard a condominium complex.
	And within three months, Scott, guess what happens within three months of James landing his job?
	Ooh, man.
	That's kind of a tough one, actually, because three months seems to be the number.
	Did he move?
	He didn't move.
	Ah. Okay.
	Was he commended?
	No. Oh.
	How about fired?
	Yeah, so on July 10th, James was fired.
	Yay! Yay!
	He was fired!
	Yay! And the pilgrims rejoiced.
	His employers noted his poor work performance, but more importantly, they noticed that he was visually unstable.
	Oh, man.
	Yeah, they could tell this guy wasn't all there.
	He had a few screws loose.
	But what do you do?
	And they just knew that he should not be working at their company.
	So at the end of his rope...
	James Huberty decided then and there that he would finally set about to get the retribution which he felt the world owed to him for the lifelong transgressions that he was forced to suffer.
	You know, his entire life was one letdown after another.
	At least, that's how he saw it.
	But in reality, the guy, he actually made some great decisions.
	You know, he went through mortuary school and had a great job digging in the body cavities of human beings.
	And he was said to be really good at it.
	And he was a great welder.
	Well, we don't really know that as a fact, but we know that he was a welder.
	But, I mean, clearly, you know, he made some good money moves.
	They got those apartment buildings, and he sold the apartment buildings, they sold the house.
	So, you know, he knew how to get stuff done, which is more than you can say for a lot of people that aren't very fortunate.
	His position was pretty good in society.
	Like, he had a pretty good foot in the door.
	There are so many people who did not have the opportunities he had.
	Totally. He wasted it all.
	But the point is that he was decent at some things and absolutely terrible at many other things.
	Like we all are.
	But the main thing that James was extremely terrible at was being able to cope with failure.
	The thing about it is that James blamed everyone else for everything negative that happened to him throughout his entire life, even blaming God when his mother went to Tucson, Arizona to become a street preaching healer.
	And he blamed his dog for causing damage to the neighbor's car, and his answer to that was to immediately shoot the dog in the head in his backyard.
	And then, James Huberti took that to a whole other level, such as stepping out onto his porch and pointing loaded rifles at his neighbors and laughing before stepping back inside.
	Like... That's some fucked up shit right there.
	And I'm not sure if he was ever arrested for doing that, but I do know that he was arrested for disorderly conduct at some point during that time period, so that could have been the reason why.
	Maybe. Yeah, maybe.
	I mean, there's probably a number of other things that we weren't privy to that he did.
	I mean, he was such a cantankerous man.
	There's no telling, like, the number of transgressions he may or may not have committed.
	Yeah. I mean, he did take his dog out the backyard, I guess, in city limits.
	This we know.
	And shoot a weapon.
	But I mean, yeah, he had a pretty shitty hand dealt to him from the beginning with polio and the leg braces and then his mother's abandonment and his father's absence due to him being a single parent and having to work so hard to support both himself and James.
	And then the super religious upbringing with all the bullying, the lack of intimacy.
	There is no doubt that James had a rough life.
	I agree with that.
	But nothing ever warrants the extent of violence that James Huberty was working himself up to commit.
	But on July 15th, 1984, James surprisingly told his wife that he thought he might have a problem with his mental state.
	And this shocked Etna because this is not something that James would just flat out admit to anybody.
	You know, he was pretty walled in emotionally as many men are today and certainly as many men were during the 1980s.
	But other than that admission, nothing else seemed out of order and Etna was, you know, she was all for it.
	Like, sure, go get some help.
	Yeah, definitely.
	It was right around this time period.
	On one typical afternoon, when James arrived home from the McDonald's that he was only three blocks down the street from, and within view from their apartment, he walked into the living room of their home with the demeanor of a kid whose milk money was stolen from the bully at school, and he complained to Etna that the ice cream machine was still broken.
	What is it now, you sap?
	The ice cream machine is still broken.
	Are you kidding me right now, James?
	We need to redecorate and refurnish all of the rooms and repaint everything.
	That yellow we did last week is painfully boring.
	I do not like it.
	We should do a drab green to match what the yard should look like if you planted seed and watered it.
	And you know what?
	We should also paint the window trim...
	Maybe a fresh gray-white would look great to accent the rain clouds that are always above your head, James.
	Yeah, she, like, totally just goes on with her life.
	She's in, like, homemaker mode.
	He's telling her, like, I have some mental problems, and then, you know, clearly is coming back in with, like, the straw that broke the camel's back, and she's just like, oh, James, you're being dramatic.
	Now work with me on these paints.
	I mean, she seems like that kind of lady too.
	She just didn't want to hear it.
	No, she didn't.
	But on the 17th of July, James decided that he would call a mental health clinic to try to set up an appointment to finally get some help for his mental health.
	He spoke to the receptionist and she asked for his information so that the clinic could call him back.
	Apparently they were too busy to schedule an appointment at that moment.
	So, you know, they said that they would get his contact information and they would give him a call back when someone was available.
	And James appeared to be genuinely interested in seeing a professional and the clinic assured him that they would call him back within a couple of hours.
	And the receptionist, well, they didn't notice any urgency in his voice and he didn't sound disturbed or in a manic state or anything like that.
	And he didn't say that he needed to see someone immediately.
	So she put the call as a non-crisis call and within 48 hours or so, he should receive a call and be able to speak with a professional.
	But he didn't know any of that.
	He thought that they would call him back within just a couple of hours.
	Man, the stage is set.
	Here's this guy.
	He's like finally to the point where he's in such mental pain that he's admitting that he needs help.
	And then he goes to try to access it in the only way that he knows how.
	And then he can't reach anybody, bro.
	They're just like, yep, go ahead and wait.
	Yeah, just get shut down, dude.
	So the receptionist also misspelled his last name, which some people say caused an issue with the clinic calling him back.
	But I don't know.
	I think that's nonsense because it's not like they were using switchboards in 1984, you know?
	And instead of Huberty, she spelled it Shuberty, which shouldn't have been a problem, right?
	Because wouldn't they just call the number and ask for a James Shuberty?
	In which she would just be like, oh, you must mean Huberty.
	Yeah, that's me.
	You know what I mean?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	There were more options than just...
	We're not going to call him.
	It just sounds like negligence on the end of the psychiatric place.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And so Etna said that James simply sat quietly by the telephone for several hours, and the call from the mental health clinic just never came.
	And once the allotted time had passed, Etna said that James suddenly stood up and walked out of the house.
	He then got on his motorcycle and drove off somewhere for about an hour.
	And he would come back home, and he seemed to be in a better mood, like he just needed to go for a little bike ride, you know?
	Just needed to calm down and think about things.
	Or he was making up his mind about what he was going to do, and maybe coming to terms with it.
	He probably did do that.
	He just went out and was like, alright, this is what I'm going to do.
	This is what my plan is.
	I'm just going to stick to this and go through with it.
	So later, Etna would serve dinner for the family, and the four of them would eat together as usual.
	And Zelia is 12 at this point, and Cassandra is 10, by the way.
	So after dinner, the family rode their bicycles to a nearby park where they seemed to be enjoying the evening together.
	And later, after the girls went to bed, he and Etna watched a movie in their living room.
	And do you have any guesses on what movie they watched, Scott?
	Oh, man.
	When is this?
	You said 1984, right?
	Yeah. So released that year was The Gremlins, The Terminator, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Ghostbusters, Revenge of the Nerds, This is Spinal Tap,
	Red Dawn, Conan the Destroyer, Children of the Corn, Against All Odds, and some others.
	Freaking all-star cast of movies, dude.
	Like, all of those are now classics.
	Movies that are getting reboots.
	Blockbusters. Yeah, those are all blocks.
	They all came out that year.
	That's so insane.
	We haven't had a year where we've released that many iconic movies probably since then.
	Yeah, never, man.
	That's one after the other.
	Well, I'm sure Aetna probably wanted to watch 16 Candles, but I'll bet you James wasn't having it.
	And considering that he was sure that the Kami Russians were going to invade and take over the U.S., I'm going to say he probably forced Aetna to watch Red Dawn.
	Probably more than once.
	They probably had a marathon of that same movie, like, all night.
	You know, it was probably James who wanted to watch Sixteen Candles, but it was Etna who wasn't having any of it.
	But all jokes aside, I can't help but picturing him loving this as Spinal Tap.
	Oh, God, yeah, for sure.
	Well, this piece is called Lick My Love Pump.
	I love it when David St. Hubbins, their guitar player, he's talking about the breakup of the band, and he quit the band himself.
	And so he's sitting in a hotel lobby, and he's being asked about Nigel, their lead guy.
	And he's asked if he misses him.
	And David is like, you know, there have been 37 people in this band, and I can't see myself missing him any more than any of the others.
	And then he's asked about how he feels about it, and he's like...
	Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I went under such heavy sedation.
	Yeah, I just love that show.
	There's so many great, yeah, there's so many great iconic lines in that movie.
	Yeah, and then the band also loses a series of drummers to accidents before getting their last drummer, Rick Shrimpton.
	And, you know, one dies from a spontaneous combustion, another chokes on vomit, and their first one, Stumpy, he died from, quote, unquote, a bizarre gardening accident.
	Yeah, yeah, Nigel's like, it was one of those things, you know.
	The authorities said, you know, best leave it unsolved.
	Yeah, and then they had their reunion album released, and for the artwork, they have a cartoon sandwich on a plate, but there are like three shark fins in the top piece of bread, so it looks like the sharks are swimming.
	Shark sandwich, yeah, I think, yeah, I remember.
	Yeah, yeah, and it gets one review.
	The review you had on shark sandwich was merely a two-word review.
	It just said...
	Shit sandwich.
	Rob Reiner.
	That's probably his best film, man.
	Really? Better Than North?
	His 1994 film about a little girl who travels the world in a FedEx box in search of the most rock and roll parents?
	It was Elijah Wood and...
	You know what?
	Never mind.
	But yeah, yeah.
	Much Better Than North.
	The next morning, both Zelia and Cassandra woke up with smiles on their faces as they learned that their dad was planning to take them to the San Diego Zoo.
	To Edna and the girls, things seemed to be improving for the family.
	It appeared that James was changing for the better.
	But while they walked through the zoo and the girls looked in awe at all the caged animals, you know, beautiful-looking caged animals, James said to his wife that he was sure that life for him was at its end.
	Etna, of course, was confused by what he meant.
	And James told her that the mental health clinic didn't call him back like they had promised him, which was the last straw for James.
	And he said to Etna that society had its chance.
	After their time at the San Diego Zoo, James took the family to the neighborhood of Claremont in San Diego, where they ate at a McDonald's restaurant before returning home.
	It is reported that James Huberti's last meal consisted of an order of chicken McNuggets, fries, and one Coca-Cola.
	And there's actually a website that's dedicated to recording what people's last meals are, like serial killers and mass killers and high-profile people who are killed or executed by authorities.
	Yeah, I've actually read a few of these meals.
	I can't think of any off the top of my head, but it's just such a weird concept to me.
	There's just something so dark about it.
	You get this one last choice in your life.
	It's what food you want.
	People get a steak and a baked potato and greens and apple pie with ice cream and then they just fucking kill you.
	It's so strange.
	It's such a strange thing.
	And then some people refuse it.
	And then you think, Well, that's strange, too, because as strange as the whole ritual is, you're like, God, wouldn't you want just that one last choice?
	One last beautiful taste in your mouth, something delicious.
	Yeah, before they stick you or whatever the hell, you know?
	Oh, man.
	Yeah, it's crazy.
	Anyways, spooky.
	To be clear, this is not the McDonald's restaurant just three blocks down from the street of their residence.
	So when they get back to their place, Etna decided that she would clean the dirty dishes in the sink because she was going to be making dinner later on for the family as usual.
	While she was doing that, their youngest daughter, Cassandra, she left to a neighbor's house to make some cash by babysitting.
	James himself was in another room, the room where he kept his weapons and ammunition.
	Once Etna had finished cleaning the dishes, she went to their bedroom to lay down for a little nap before she would start getting dinner ready.
	And while she was resting, James changed his clothes in a different room to a dark maroon t-shirt and some green camouflage pants, and he donned a pair of aviator sunglasses.
	After he had changed, he then walked into their bedroom where Etna was laying down.
	He walked up next to her, leaned down, and said to her, I want to kiss you goodbye.
	And the two would embrace.
	To Etna, he was clearly getting ready to go somewhere, but she was going to be starting dinner soon, so she just asked him where he was leaving to.
	Standing up and turning to leave the bedroom, James, in a very calm, unruffled and tranquil voice, replied to her saying, going hunting for humans.
	That's so crazy, dude.
	I mean, just all of the depth.
	I mean, he literally told her what he was going to do, right?
	Well, he didn't come out and say, I'm going to go shoot a bunch of people.
	Yeah, but he kind of did, though.
	Hinting at it, and his behavior was definitely strange.
	I mean, you know, if I were Aetna, well, never mind, because Aetna didn't think like a normal person, but here's this guy who's talking about mental distress, and he's not getting the help he needs, and he says he's going hunting for humans.
	I mean, wouldn't you just think something?
	You'd think something.
	Put the pieces together.
	Seriously. I just think she didn't care.
	I think she didn't care about anything that he's doing in his life.
	I think she stopped listening to him a long time ago.
	Yeah. And she was just like, well, that's just James being a weird motherfucker like usual.
	Right, so this didn't alarm Edna for whatever reason.
	She would later say that she was used to his dark, weird sense of humor, so she just brushed it aside.
	And she knew that James, you know, he had pointed rifles at the neighbors and had done some pretty questionable things like shoot their dog in the backyard.
	But, you know, she never really thought that James would actually ever kill somebody.
	She saw his statements as being nothing more than empty threats, some sort of coping mechanism that he used to tolerate the anger and disdain that he had inside for the rest of the world.
	So after that little interaction, James left the bedroom and went to where he had a bundle ready that was wrapped in a checkered pattern blanket.
	Grabbing this bundle, he then began walking toward the front door.
	Zelia, the eldest daughter, she watched him as he was walking out.
	And he looked at her and he said, Goodbye.
	I won't be back.
	Now, Scott, what do you think she was thinking at that point?
	Seeing the weapons and him saying those words to her, what do you think Zelia was thinking?
	As a kid, you're sitting there, you're watching your dad walk out, this crazy guy.
	I think you just sit there frozen and you just let him go.
	What are you going to do?
	Tell him no?
	They were probably so scared of this dude.
	I hesitate to think that they would have been like Etna, where they just didn't listen to him and wrote him off as being...
	No action.
	Because they had to watch all these super violent fights, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	He and Etna had their whole life.
	So I imagine they would just sit there and be like, okay, whatever you say, Dad.
	Go do your whatever.
	Leave me alone.
	Get out of here.
	Go do your thing.
	Yeah, at least if he's out there, he's not in here bugging me.
	Right. Yeah.
	And so James, well, he'd leave and he gets into his black Mercury marquee and he drives away.
	So the 42-year-old James, he drove down the San Ysidro Boulevard, and according to eyewitness reports, he drove toward a Big Bear supermarket, which has long since been demolished.
	He then changed directions and headed toward a post office, which was right next to a McDonald's, the same McDonald's three blocks down from his apartment, and within eyesight.
	The post office was actually across the street from the McDonald's.
	But when he drove by the supermarket, he probably noticed that there weren't a lot of people there, so he then checked the post office, which again, there weren't a lot of people in there.
	So he kept driving and noticed that the McDonald's was packed full of people.
	And it was this McDonald's that James Huberti had decided to exact his revenge on society for all of the failures in his life.
	It was never him that was the source for all of his unhappiness.
	He never once saw himself as being the problem.
	And despite all of the things that he had accomplished and succeeded in doing, and all of the material wealth that he had accumulated, he always felt that he deserved more.
	He seems like the type that no matter what he had, he would never find happiness.
	Like, he was just eternally morose.
	And he could have won Jeff Bozo's yacht in a bingo game, but he would have complained that it wasn't large enough, you know, or didn't have enough bathrooms or something like that.
	Or he could have won $100,000 in a scratch-off, but...
	He probably would have complained about the process he had to go through and now he has to change it in and then everyone's gonna know who he is and then he complained more about the fact that the government's gonna tax it.
	Which, I mean, I'd probably complain about that too now that I'm saying it out loud.
	Oh yeah, I would definitely complain about that.
	But yeah, he was the type who always looked for something to be unhappy about.
	And these people are out there with us today, Scott.
	They are out there all around us everywhere.
	People who are just unhappy and just don't give no fucks no more and can just pop up at any fucking moment.
	It happens all the time and it is scary.
	It's true.
	You never know when someone's going to reach the end of their limit and they're just like, fuck it!
	I hate thinking about that shit.
	All right, so now what follows is pretty dramatic.
	And so we here at the Paranautica Podcast advise that you pause putting makeup on in traffic for now.
	Yes, Harold.
	Put the eyeliner down for a minute.
	Yeah, come on, Harold.
	James drives into the McDonald's parking lot and parks his car and turns it off.
	It is approximately 3.56 p.m.
	He sits in his car as he goes over his plant in his head and most certainly building himself up.
	Getting the ovaries to do what he's about to do.
	You know, he gave the world many chances to make things right, but the world failed him every time.
	Well, shit, James.
	You kind of set the bar a little bit high for yourself, you know?
	If you had just lowered your bar down a few notches, well, quite a few notches, things could have been so much easier for you.
	And maybe people could have helped.
	Absolutely, man.
	Absolutely. And that's exactly it.
	If he didn't have such high expectations for not only himself but for others, I mean, his life probably wouldn't have been so terrible, at least as much as he saw it.
	Well, and I understand to some degree his personality issues.
	Like, he was good at turning people away and inspiring fear, and he was not good at having people who wanted to be around him in order to help.
	But part of, like, overcoming that is acknowledging...
	That you're not good at that and actively trying to change, and he never actively tried to change his personality.
	He just became more and more embittered.
	Yeah, that's exactly it.
	But he could tell by how many vehicles were in the parking lot and how many people he could see through the windows, sitting at tables and walking around, that there were a lot of people inside that building.
	And we know that there were at least 31 people inside that McDonald's building on San Diego Boulevard on July 18, 1984, at approximately 4 o'clock p.m.
	Of course, there were more, but we know for sure there were 31. Now, the number takes into account the total of those killed and wounded and the survivors, including those who arrived during the attack.
	It does not take into account how many people were able to initially escape when James first entered.
	Now, some accounts say that there were probably around 50 people inside the building, which is probably pretty accurate.
	As he's sitting in his car getting his rusty spoons in order, he equips himself with a 9mm semi-automatic Uzi.
	A 9mm Browning semi-automatic handgun, the same one that Etna pulled on Zelia's schoolmate's mom, you know, earlier on in time, and a 12-gauge Winchester pump-action shotgun.
	Along with his three firearms, he had a large sack filled with hundreds of rounds of ammunition for each of the three weapons.
	James steps out of his car and briskly walks toward the McDonald's entrance with the shotgun in plain sight.
	Unbeknownst to James, a witness noticed him and called the police.
	Unfortunately, this witness gave the wrong address, or there was some misunderstanding on somebody's part.
	At the same time that he is approaching one set of entrance doors into the McDonald's, a woman named Maria Amelda Diaz and her two-year-old son were also just entering the building through the same doors, but James quickly rushed past them.
	And as he did so, Maria stepped back because she saw the shotgun on his shoulder and the bundle in his arm.
	But her boy, she kept walking in, but luckily she was able to grab him, and they escaped the situation.
	Now, immediately inside the McDonald's doors, James aims the shotgun at a 16-year-old employee named John Arnold.
	He was maybe about 15 feet away.
	At the same time, Guillermo Flores, who was one of the assistant managers, yelled at John, saying that, you know, this guy is about to shoot him.
	Like, get the hell out of there, John.
	Run! And while aimed at Arnold, James pulled the trigger, but the gun does not go off.
	It just clicks.
	A good misfire.
	And so James checks the shock to see why it didn't go off.
	I can totally see him looking down the barrel to see what's plugging it up, like furiously pressing at the trigger, you know?
	Oh, man, like Elmer Fudd?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Same image.
	Just like, what's going on here?
	Just pointing it towards his eye and looking at it.
	Like, whoa!
	Pulling the trigger, pushing the trigger at the same time.
	Like, why?
	What's going on here?
	Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
	Covered in black soot.
	Oh, there it is.
	So, as he's messing with the shotgun, the manager, Neva Kane, who was 22 years old, walked over to where John was, both thinking that this is some stupid joke that this crazy gringo was playing on them.
	So, who wouldn't think that that's just a joke, right?
	So, this is when the loud boom from the shotgun sounded through the building as it blew a hole in the ceiling.
	This shocked everyone to their core.
	This was definitely no fucking joke.
	The entire atmosphere suddenly changed to pure dread.
	And survivors would later say that at that moment, it was like everything froze in time.
	Can you imagine?
	I can't even imagine.
	You're sitting there in the booth.
	You're just eating a Mickey D's sandwich with your fam.
	This guy walks in with guns, points one up at the ceiling, shoots, it goes off, and there's just this moment of still and calm.
	And then he starts blowing people away.
	I just can't.
	I just can't even.
	Either James tested the trigger at the ceiling to see it was working and shot a round off, or maybe he shot it to get everyone's attention and make it clear that this was not a joke, or maybe it accidentally went off as he was figuring out what was wrong with the weapon, and it was most likely operator error.
	Either way, right after the shotgun blasted the ceiling, James set the shotgun aside and gripped his 9mm Uzi.
	And with this, he shot Neva just under her left eye, which killed her minutes later.
	Lydia Flores, with her two-year-old daughter, had just gone through the drive-thru and placed an order.
	She then drove up to the window to get it, as he normally would, but she had no idea of what was taking place inside the building.
	So this means that right as she placed her order and the teller told her to pull forward to pay, that is right when James walked in and began to make a scene.
	And one account says that she sat there at the pickup window for a while,
	but nobody came to the window, so she parked her car and walked up to the door.
	And that is when she saw James shooting his weapon, and so she ran back to the car, got in, drove blindly in reverse, hitting signs, but ultimately escaped the scene.
	But back inside the building, immediately after shooting Neva, he grabbed his shotgun and again fired it at John Arnold, who, at this time, was completely frozen in disbelief.
	And this time, the blast hit John in his chest and arm, which caused him to fall, blood pouring all around him.
	John somehow survives his wounds in the roughly 76 minutes that followed until the siege was finally ended and he received help.
	Yeah, so instantly the scene gets transformed from this.
	What is happening to everybody suddenly knows.
	Like, there's no way.
	There's no doubt in your mind anymore.
	This is really going down.
	It's time to run.
	It's time to throw shit.
	It's time to, like, scramble around.
	Yeah, I'm sure it was just pure chaos at that point.
	Well, apparently nobody was running.
	Everybody just...
	They were frozen in fear.
	Like, people did not do shit.
	Oh, shit.
	Like, at first, when he walked in, like, initially, yeah, people were able to run out before he started shooting, yeah, but once that first shot went off, people were frozen.
	Nobody moved, because that just made them a target.
	Damn! So, they just stayed.
	They unfortunately stayed right where they were.
	Man. But what's crazy about this, though, we'll all get into it, but, you know, John survived, but he had to sit there for 76 minutes on the floor, bleeding out, hearing everything else going on.
	But we'll get into that later.
	True. True.
	Just the trauma.
	This guy is just like, play dead, play dead.
	Yeah. You know?
	So after shooting John, James shouted out that everybody needed to get down on the ground, and then he called everyone in the restaurant dirty swine in Vietnam, assholes.
	James then claimed that he had already killed a thousand, and that he would kill a thousand more, alluding to him being in the Vietnam War.
	We know that these claims are false.
	He had never served in the military.
	You know, the people didn't know that.
	And I think he was saying these things just to try to look more frightening and dangerous, which I'm sure worked.
	And right around this time, as all this is unfolding at the McDonald's, Omar Hernandez, Joshua Coleman, and David Delgado, all 11 years old, were all hanging out, enjoying the summer day.
	And they were getting ready to go on a mission to get a bike tire patch for one of their bikes and, you know, get some donuts to enjoy as well.
	Yeah, right.
	Yeah. So the boys arrived on site and stopped their bikes right in front of one of the entrances.
	And a man on the other side of the street who was well aware of the gunman inside, he yelled at the boys to run away.
	But all those did was distract them from what was going on inside.
	They couldn't hear him from the noise from the traffic, and this gave James enough time to take aim at them.
	James unleashed a flurry of gunshots from both the shotgun and the Uzi at the 11-year-old boys.
	David was shot in the head several times, dying almost instantly.
	Omar was shot multiple times in the back, and he too would die shortly afterward.
	Joshua was shot in the back, one arm, and a leg, but he would manage to stay alive, although in critical condition.
	He recounted later that after falling to the ground after being shot, he looked over toward his friends, and he remembers that Omar had wounds to his back and was vomiting, while David was motionless with severe injuries to his head.
	He says later that he sang songs to himself in order to stay conscious until help arrived, which would be over an hour later.
	And he, like John Arnold inside, and so many other survivors, they would have to play dead and forced to listen to the slaughtering of all these other people.
	And sometimes those other people would literally be right next to them.
	Victor Rivera, a 25-year-old customer, attempted to plea with James to stop shooting people.
	He was desperately pleading for this madman to stop, but James was not in the mood to hear that.
	James frantically toxic avengered it over to Victor and proceeded to shoot him 14 times while hysterically yelling shut up at Victor over and over.
	Victor did not survive.
	At this point, everyone was desperately trying to hide under tables, behind counters, and anywhere they could, even under their dead loved ones who were shot and fell on top of them in their attempt to protect them.
	And of course, attempting to run away only made you a perfect target.
	So around approximately 4.06 p.m., a young couple, Ostolfo and Maricela Felix, and their four-month-old daughter, Carlita, had just arrived at the McDonald's and parked their car.
	They quickly noticed broken glass, but Ostolfo assumed that there was just some accident and the window was broken and it was being fixed.
	And I get it.
	Generally, you're not going to automatically assume that, you know, there's an active shooter in this building because of some broken glass, you know?
	I mean, I will now, that's for sure.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	After reading all these stories and hearing all these accounts, like, if I see broken glass outside of a McDonald's, it clearly looks like it's from the actual structure itself.
	I'm not going in, bro.
	Nope. But Astolfo saw James approaching them.
	And apparently, Astolfo also thought that James was just a repairman working on the window, except this guy was raising an Uzi at the family.
	Yeah, I think I would recognize the gun, but you know, that's just...
	Speaking with hindsight, and I clearly wasn't there experiencing the emotions or expecting it or anything.
	And all jokes aside, all jokes aside, he's like, well, nice hammer.
	Yeah, right, right.
	That's a crazy-looking hammer.
	James fired both the Uzi and the shotgun.
	Not at the same time, though.
	Oh, I was gonna say, what the hell was he watching?
	Was he just binge-watching Charles Bronson films?
	No, no, no.
	Well, he might have.
	But he was not firing the weapons at the same time.
	He did, however, hit all three of them.
	Maricela, she was hit in the face.
	Both arms and chest.
	Ostalfo was hit in the chest and the head, and four-month-old Carlita was struck in the neck, the chest, and abdomen.
	Ah, man, he's just even gunning down the children, like, just so sickening, bro.
	Amazingly, they all survived.
	Dang! Woo!
	And while Maricela was bleeding out in horror, she was able to hand Carlita to Ostalfo, who was then able to escape the general vicinity.
	And out of the line of fire, El Stolfo then handed Carlita to a woman named Lucia Valesco, and she drove the child to a nearby hospital.
	And Lucia Valesco's husband stayed at the scene and was then able to get El Stolfo and Maricela into a nearby building for safety.
	James retreated back into the McDonald's after shooting the Felix family and put his attention on a group of women and children huddled together by a booth.
	So he walked over and first shot Maria Colmanero Silva, 19 years old, with a single shot to the chest.
	He then shot nine-year-old Claudia Perez in many parts of her body with the Uzi, and she was riddled with bullet wounds.
	In so doing, he also shot Claudia's 15-year-old sister, Imelda, in her hand as she held it up in a desperate attempt to shield herself.
	It's insane that there was even anyone who made it out of this.
	I mean, I know there were a lot of people, but he had three guns, tons of ammunition, and he obviously didn't give a shit who it was, so it's crazy to me that anybody survived at all.
	Putting the Uzi aside, he grabbed his shotgun and shot at Aurora Pena, 11 years old, who was hit in the leg, also only injuring her.
	Aurora was being shielded by her pregnant aunt, 18-year-old Jackie Reyes, who took at least 48 bullets from the Uzi.
	She died trying to protect the children.
	Wow. What the hell, man?
	He shot her 48 times with the Uzi.
	That's just so crazy.
	Yeah, get this, man.
	Next to Jackie was her 8-month-old baby, Carlos Reyes.
	He fell to the floor from Jackie's arms when she was shot, which is fucking crazy because Jackie was shot 48 times, but none of those bullets hit Carlos when she was holding him in her arms.
	Whoa. Magic baby, dude.
	Well, it's still traumatic.
	It's not good.
	But just the fact that he wasn't hit in that flurry of gunshots is crazy.
	But Carlos, being the infant that he was, he began crying hysterically from all the noise and the violence
	happening all around him.
	And after falling to the floor, he would sit up.
	Oh, man.
	James yelled at the baby to stop crying before taking his 9mm handgun and shooting the 8-month-old Carlos once in the back, killing him instantly.
	It's just, yeah.
	Nothing to say about that.
	No, it's not good, man.
	So James, he then focused his attention on Lawrence Versloo, a 62-year-old trucker who was then shot and killed.
	After that, he took aim at a family huddled near the play area.
	Blythe Herrera attempted to protect Mateo, her 11-year-old son, while Ronald, the father, tried to protect their son's 12-year-old friend, Keith Thomas.
	Blythe and Mateo were both killed from multiple gunshot wounds, including shots to the head.
	Both Ronald and Keith were hit numerous times as well.
	Ronald being hit, he reported eight times, including in his stomach, chest, arm, and even his
	He next turned his sights on a group of three women hiding beneath a booth nearby.
	Guadalupe del Rio, 24. was being shielded by her two friends, 25-year-old Gloria Ramirez and 31-year-old Erzdelzi Vargas.
	Guadalupe was hit with several bullets, but was only wounded.
	Gloria, too, would only be wounded.
	Erzdelzi, on the other hand, was shot in the back of the head with one bullet, but survived long enough to be brought to the hospital.
	She would die from injuries the next morning.
	In another nearby booth sat Hugo Vasquez, a 45-year-old banker.
	James would shoot him once in the chest, killing him.
	During all of this chaos, James chose a front counter where single people could sit and use this as his reloading area.
	He laid his weapons there and his sack of ammunition and would choose one weapon, use it on his victims, put it down, pick up another weapon, and so forth.
	At one point when he was reloading his weapons, Oscar Mondragon, who was 27, and Ruspolino Sevilla, who was 23, a young couple, They took that opportunity to escape, and they were fucking lucky to have done so.
	Mondragon later recalls that after the boys who arrived on their bikes, when they were shot outside of one of the entrances, an elderly couple, who would be Miguel Alua, who was 74, and his wife Ida Victoria, 69, they were completely unaware of the destruction going on at that moment.
	And they walked up to an entrance, and Miguel went to open the door for Ida.
	And James shot Ida in the face with a shotgun as soon as Miguel opened the door, which simultaneously injured Miguel.
	Mondragon says that Miguel held his wife in his arms and was wiping the blood from her face, which just kept bleeding profusely.
	And he began to yell at James, cursing at him through all his tears.
	And James approached the couple and just coldly shot Miguel in the head and just walked away.
	Now, approximately 10 minutes after the first call to 911 took place, Police finally arrived at the crime scene.
	And due to the previous incorrect information that was given, police were dispatched to a different McDonald's about two miles to the south, nearly right on the Mexican-U.S.
	border. But one police officer did arrive at the right location, that was Miguel Rosario, and he thought he was only responding to an accidental shooting, not a deranged mass shooter.
	He was also patrolling solo at the time.
	Rosario turned into the parking lot and immediately noticed people hiding behind cars and behind low walls in the vicinity, and at that point he knew that it was something bigger than just an accidental shooting.
	As Rosario pulled in and parked, James Huberty rushed to a side door where Rosario was parked with his Uzi in his hand, and he proceeded to open fire at the officer, firing no fewer than 30 rounds.
	Miguel, quick on his heels, was able to run behind a large truck and avoided being shot.
	And armed with only his.38 caliber revolver, he quickly called in for a Code 10, which was the code used by law enforcement in the area to send in the SWAT team.
	But thinking fast, he then decided to go one above and call in a Code 11, which is the code to send in everyone.
	Oh yeah, get them all in there.
	Get Stallone in there, Mickey Rourke, get Lundgren in there, Van Damme, fucking Norris.
	Probably gonna have to let Willis sit this one out though.
	He's not talking so good at the moment.
	Yeah, let's let him rest.
	But send in everyone else.
	Code 11, let's go.
	Now, the following is sort of a basic timeline of the events as James is carrying out his attack.
	So, at about 4 p.m., the police received their first call, but they were dispatched to the wrong McDonald's, as I mentioned.
	By 4.05 p.m., the San Diego police are generally aware of the situation.
	By 4.08 p.m., Mike Rosario arrives on scene.
	James shoots at him with his Uzi.
	Mike calls the dispatch and says, Shots being fired at me.
	Returning fire with two rounds.
	Request code 10. No, request code 11.
	Paramedics arrive by 4.09 p.m., but they are unable to provide any help to any of the victims due to James shooting at everything that's moving.
	At the same time, the San Diego Fire Department dispatches a lifelike helicopter to get an aerial view of the McDonald's.
	By 4.10pm, there were around 150 police officers surrounding the building.
	And probably at least twice that many bystanders at this point just sit in the back of their lawn chairs, eating popcorn, watching the scene unfold, people are out on their balconies, just like, oh, what's going on?
	Oh yeah, bro.
	People are watching this.
	One issue that the police had was that the windows were all shattered.
	They weren't exactly blasted out of the frames, but they were just shattered like spiderwebbed, which made it impossible to see through.
	Now, not all of the windows were like this, but most of them were.
	It caused a lot of issues for the police.
	And while James was distracted by all the police scrambling around outside, a few more people were able to escape.
	And they would run directly to the police and tell them information about the shooter and that there were at least a dozen more people inside.
	Some of the survivors would later say that James had found a portable radio that one of the employees had brought in with them.
	And James took this portable radio and put it on the service counter where he would reload his weapons.
	And they said that in between shooting people, he would change the music stations.
	And after a while, he started to change it to various news stations to listen to reports of music.
	Yeah, that's also what 25-year-old Charles Whitman did in 1966 when he fired on helpless victims from the University of Texas Clock Tower observation deck, primarily with a Remington Model 700.
	Nearby, he also had numerous other weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition.
	And Charles Whitman would go on to kill 15 people that day, including a pregnant woman who, if I remember correctly, was his first target, walking with her husband, I think.
	And he would wound a further 31 people who didn't die but had serious complications.
	About 35 years later, a 16th victim would actually die from these complications from that same attack.
	And also, I should mention that he stabbed both his mother and his wife to death in each of their homes, respectively, before his attack at the university.
	But that's a different tale for another one.
	Back at the McDonald's, some of the victims would say that in between shooting and reloading, James would do stupid little dances to the music on the radio.
	Others said that they remembered hearing Michael Jackson in the background in moments when James would scream out loudly and yell obscenities.
	It was reported that after deciding on a music station...
	He went searching for more people who were hiding in other areas which he couldn't immediately see.
	He went behind the counter and toward the kitchen area.
	And it is there that he found Paulina Lopez, 21 years old, 19 year old Elsa Barboa Fierro, Margarita Padilla, who was 18, Alberto Leo, 17, and Wendy Flanagan, who was also 17. As James was walking behind the counter toward them,
	Margarita yelled for Wendy to run, which she did.
	Right as James opened fire.
	It was said that when he found them, he said, Oh, there's more.
	You're trying to hide from me.
	This is when Paulina Lopez pleaded in Spanish saying, Don't kill me.
	Don't kill me.
	Paulina, Elsa, and Margarita were killed on the spot.
	Alberto, however, was alive but was severely wounded.
	Miraculously, Wendy was unharmed and ran to the basement where four other employees were already hiding in a closet.
	As they desperately tried to stay quiet for what were most certainly the most terrifying moments of their lives, Alberto, who was shot five times upstairs, was able to crawl downstairs to that same closet and hide.
	Back upstairs, James sees cops and cop cars, fire trucks, ambulances all around the perimeter.
	He can hear helicopters flying above, sending this story to all of the local news channels as it's happening.
	James saw a fire engine drive a little too close, and so he sprayed it with bullets, but nobody was hitting that flurry.
	By this time, the police had a command post established two blocks away and had a six-block radius closed off.
	Also, the SWAT was now on scene to assist the San Diego Police Department, and soon two snipers would take position atop the post office across the street, which was...
	Now, do you think?
	That if he had chosen the post office, that the snipers would have then posted up in the golden arches?
	Oh, yeah.
	I would say yes.
	I mean, where else would a reasonable post be, you know?
	Yeah, totally.
	As James walked around the interior of the McDonald's looking for more people to shoot, he unfortunately heard the sounds of a wounded victim slouch in a booth, who would be 19-year-old Jose Perez.
	James walked over and shot him in the head.
	Next to Jose Perez was Gloria Gonzalez, 22 years old.
	Now, if you recall Aurora Penny, the 11-year-old who was shot early on next to her aunt and two friends and her baby cousin, well, as she lay there next to all that carnage, she noticed that there was a pause in all the noise from James shooting and shouting as he walked from one area to the next.
	And it was during that pause in the unthinkable chaos that she opened her eyes and, only moving her eyeballs, she spotted James who was close by, who was staring right back at her.
	Can you imagine, bro?
	No, that's just so scary.
	Dude. So James grabbed a bag of french fries laying nearby and threw them at the severely injured little girl.
	Just the gall of this guy.
	You know, he's going in there.
	He's... Killing all these people, defenseless people, and then on top of that, just treating them so disrespectful.
	I mean, I know it sounds silly because he's killing people, but he's throwing food at people and mocking them and doing these...
	I mean, he didn't just go off the deep end, bro.
	He just became pure evil.
	For sure, man.
	All morality, gone.
	Nothing in there.
	Anything resembling human compassion, completely gone.
	Just gone.
	Cold. After throwing the french fries, he walked over to where his shotgun was and picked it up.
	He then walked back over to Aurora and then shot her once in the jaw, neck, and arm.
	It is a miracle, for lack of better words, that this little girl survived.
	Lieutenant Jerry Sanders, who was in charge of the operation, later said that they weren't sure if there were hostages being held, which, I mean, of course there are hostages.
	Everyone that is alive in that building is a hostage.
	Yeah, I'm not an expert in police protocol or anything, but it seems reasonable enough that you would automatically assume that there are hostages, especially when something of this magnitude is occurring.
	I mean, it's a McDonald's on a normal day, busy location, there's going to be people in there, some are going to be alive, well, hopefully, and some are going to be dead.
	Yeah, obviously you're going to naturally assume they're hostages.
	Naturally. So why are this guys...
	I don't get it.
	Anyway, the snipers were requesting a green light to take a shot, and someone other than Jerry gave the go-ahead, and this would be Lieutenant Roy Blackledge.
	Oh, fuck boy, Jerry Sanders isn't here to call the shots, but I am.
	And I am Lieutenant Roy Blackledge.
	And you might be wondering just what kind of lineage that name comes from.
	And you might be asking yourself, what's that heritage?
	And I'd tell you it comes from my family from millennia ago were ledge painters.
	They painted every ledge they could find a solid black.
	The nicest black you've ever seen, by the way.
	You should see our family crest.
	But I say to the snipers, you got the green light from me, boys.
	That was good.
	You like that one?
	That was perfect.
	That's awesome.
	Jerry Sanders was stuck in traffic trying to get to the scene and quickly got on the radio to rescind Roy's green light.
	Jerry ordered that no firing was permitted unless the shooter left the building again.
	Regardless of this order, investigators would later say that since most of the killings happened in the first 10 minutes of James firing the first shot, that the weight which the police had to take for Jerry to get on scene would not have mattered anyway because neither sniper could get a clear shot,
	despite them requesting the green light to take the shot.
	In my opinion, they're just covering their asses for a lack of immediate action by law enforcement.
	Yeah, it seems like through the whole process, nobody was taking this as serious as it needed to be taken at first.
	And not only that, they just looked for any convenient things that no one could prove to just excuse their way out of things they should have done better.
	They just were not ready for this situation, is really what it comes down to.
	No, no.
	They weren't.
	I mean, nowadays, this stuff happens often.
	Yeah, I feel like most squads these days would be more practiced up.
	There'd be a clear plan, one that they drilled, and active shooter and establishment.
	Boom, go.
	Even though we just had the Evaldi thing a couple years ago, whatever, a year ago, whenever that was, and they got a lot of flack, at least the captain or whatever, because he didn't respond accordingly.
	He didn't send people in to shoot the gunmen at the school.
	You know, they got a lot of flack for that.
	I guess it depends what state, what town.
	You know, that's the thing.
	There's not, like, one universal body making all these calls.
	So, yeah, that's a good point.
	There's always going to be human error, I suppose.
	Exactly. And you've got to just put yourself in a situation like that.
	Being on the outside looking in, it's almost like a movie.
	You know, we're safe out here.
	We can just see these things happening.
	We're like, okay, cool.
	But if you're one of these officers that has to respond to a situation like this...
	That's going to be fucked up.
	You're not really prepared for that, regardless of how much experience you have, unless you've never experienced something like that.
	Going into a situation like that has got to be very traumatic just to begin with.
	You know what I mean?
	It makes me wonder what would have happened if the snipers had not even asked for a green light, and if they just saw what was going down and they were like, you know what?
	I don't care if I lose my job or whatever.
	I'm taking this guy out.
	Right. You know?
	Of course, they probably would have gotten in a heap of trouble, but they also could have saved some lives, too.
	Could have saved a lot of lives.
	But now that Jerry is on scene, he gave the green light.
	It was 5.13 p.m.
	At 5.14 p.m., James fired dozens of rounds out toward the San Ysidro Boulevard, which was crawling with police officers with only one goal in mind, take this guy out.
	By 5.16 p.m., James pauses his volley to reload.
	This gave a SWAT officer enough time to return fire at the suspect.
	At 5.17pm, James walked from the counter where he was reloading his weapons and walked toward a doorway next to the drive-thru window.
	This movement by James put him in a perfect spot for 27-year-old Charles Foster, a SWAT sniper, to take a clear shot.
	Charles could see James' body from the neck down, and with one round ready in the chamber, Charles pulled the trigger from 35 yards away, which is about two-thirds as long as the Hopinite Bridge.
	It's about half as tall as the Cinderella Castle.
	It's about one and one-third times as long as a cricket pitch.
	It's about two times as tall as the Brachiosaurus.
	It's about half as tall as the Mahabodhi Temple.
	It's about half as tall as Nelson's Column.
	It's about half as tall as the Leaning Tower of Pisa.
	It's about three-fifths as tall as the Chicago Water Tower.
	It's about two-fifths as wide as the wingspan of a 747.
	The bullet was fired from a Remington.308, and James was struck in the aorta directly below his heart.
	The bullet went through his spine, severing it, and exited his body.
	James was literally blasted backward next to the service counter where his weapons, ammunition, and the radio were.
	Pathologists would later say that he did not die instantly, but pretty damn close to it.
	Therefore, James Heberti was briefly conscious and most likely knew that he had just been shot as he lay bleeding on the cartridge-ridden floor after inflicting the worst mass shooting in U.S. history at that point in time.
	After firing the shot, James Foster kept his sight on James as he notified his colleagues that the suspect was down.
	Police converged on the site and entered the gruesome.
	That's just so, I mean, I'm glad that he was instantly taken out of the equation.
	I just wish it had been sooner.
	A little bit sooner.
	Absolutely. The age range of victims was from 8 months old to 74 years old.
	17 victims were murdered inside the restaurant, and 4 were just outside the doors and windows.
	Of the 10 survivors from inside the building, 6 were hidden downstairs in the utility room, one of those being Alberto, who was shot 5 times.
	And that is the story of the San Ysidro McDonald's Massacre.
	Jeez, bro.
	So depressing.
	It is very depressing.
	I just, man...
	The eight-month-old baby.
	I know the kids.
	It's not tragic when adults lose their lives too, but just the lengths that he went to to just extinguish all life without any regard for future life.
	I know he had snapped.
	I know he wasn't thinking like a rational human being at that point in time.
	I know.
	Yeah, stories like this, man.
	Some of them just really get to you.
	This one's pretty bad, bro.
	There are ones that really get to me.
	Same. We will get to those.
	I really don't want to cover them, but we have to.
	The ones that really affect me are these ones when these teenage girls, or even boys for that matter, not necessarily being kidnapped for sexual pleasure and stuff like that, but cases where boys will kidnap a teenage girl or whatever and just keep her hostage and just inflicts the worst torture on them for an extended period of time until they just succumb to the injuries.
	Those stories...
	Hit me the hardest.
	Because just the fact that these fucking people do this to somebody...
	Well, and it's also the injustice of the person just being so utterly powerless to stop what was happening.
	And just thinking about that.
	Yes. And the agonizing time frame that all of it's occurring and how long...
	I mean, it's horrible.
	It's like, ah, this is the worst.
	Yes, the worst.
	Yeah. There's one...
	I forget her name.
	It's in Japan.
	Hunka... It's a really famous case.
	It's one of the worst I've ever read.
	There's another one called Sylvia Likens.
	Her name was Sylvia Likens, and her mother was the one that did all this torture to her.
	It's sad.
	Of course, there are so many of these cases, but some of these just hit you harder than the others.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Well, it's our job to talk about these weird happenings and strange things, so I'm sure they'll be coming up in subsequent podcasts.
	Yeah, yeah.
	But, you know, interesting fact.
	So right after this tragic event happened at the San Ysidro McDonald's, the people behind the original film, Red Dawn, which came out 1984, right around when this happened, they decided to delete what was supposed to be a key scene in the film where a tank was going to roll up to a McDonald's where Russian enemies were eating.
	And the reason...
	is because the shooting took place just a few weeks before the opening of the film.
	So the editors went in and they were like, you know what?
	This is going to be taken in bad taste.
	Like, this story is all over the news.
	So they just cut it out.
	They took it out.
	Well, then I guess we know that James and Edna did not watch Red Dawn the night before his attack.
	But, you know, I would like to see that deleted footage.
	Yeah, I know.
	And even though it seems in poor taste, it would be an interesting scene.
	It would have added...
	Definitely to the movie.
	That is weird, though.
	Not all that, you know, that coincidence.
	That is.
	James Huberti's daughter, Zelia, would later come out and say a few things about that day and about her father.
	So about 30 years later, after that horrible day, Zelia would give an interview in which she would say, I had a perfect view of it.
	Meaning the McDonald's three blocks away from the house.
	I saw the car there.
	I saw everything.
	I saw people I knew who I went to school with.
	I wasn't thinking anything at the time, except better them than me.
	And I know that sounds like a horrible thing to say, but as a 12-year-old, that's the sort of thing you think.
	Jeez, that's so dark.
	After the attack, Zelia says she was taken to city-mandated therapy, but she thought that the sessions were just a nuisance and only went for 12 weeks.
	And Zelia also says that as she was growing up, she was treated pretty badly by everybody else, you know, once they realized who her dad really was.
	And even to this day, she'll still hear some, you know, shitty comments from time to time.
	I bet.
	I mean, you hear the name Huberty, or even after you change your name, like, people know who you are, and yeah, I could totally see that.
	It was just, man, you just want to be isolated all the time.
	It's just the nature of these things, like, he's gone now, so people are looking for someone to, you know, like, focus their rage on, and unfortunately, the leftover family members become the target.
	That's exactly it.
	And Zelia would say something that I wholeheartedly agree with and stand by.
	She said, Good for her.
	What a strong person.
	And the last statement by Zelia I wanted to bring up was what she said she would do if she could turn back the clock.
	And she said, I probably would have killed my father before any of this would have occurred.
	And, you know, I'm sure any of us would say the same thing in hindsight.
	In hindsight, if you knew it was going to happen, it would be the hardest thing in the world, but how could you not, though?
	I know.
	Think about that.
	Like, you go back in time, you're like, I have to kill my dad.
	Yeah. To prevent all these innocent people being killed.
	Right. Plus, it sounds like her dad was kind of a dick to her.
	But, I mean, it's also hard to say.
	You still love your parent no matter what.
	It's hard to say.
	Yeah. A lot of dynamics at work there.
	A lot.
	Well, that's it for today's episode.
	Thank you guys for hanging in.
	That was a grim tale, but sometimes grim tales still need to be told, lest history repeat itself.
	If you would, please like, share, and subscribe to the Paranautica podcast wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
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	With that said, have a great week, everyone.

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