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March 9, 2023 - ParaNaughtica

02:03:16

The Case of Ryan Waller

We chose to cover this case because of the madness of it all. It's not every day you hear a story like this. People are shot, victims are accused, stories don't add up. This is a truly heart-breaking case. And it's two hours!   Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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	Thank you.
	So instead of going along with, you know, like,
	The investigation that this FBI agent wanted to do, that he detains him, calls in backup.
	They all start running his plate.
	They're like, oh, your car's not coming back to you.
	It created this multi-hour situation for this FBI agent because they didn't believe him.
	Nobody knew who he was.
	And he was legit.
	He was a legit FBI agent working.
	So they had to wait for his supervisor to get in touch with their supervisor, and they didn't want to let him go.
	And you hear the guy talking, and he's like, well, it just seemed fishy to me.
	There's something not right about it.
	He had my cell phone number, and he's wanting to talk to me about this and that.
	And I'm like, what a dumb piece of shit.
	What the hell?
	Yeah, this guy.
	Yeah, so anyways, there's just so much of that.
	Too much, bro.
	Dumbass cops, you know?
	It's everywhere.
	Yeah, the whole country, man.
	It's their training, man.
	They're all trained to attack first, ask questions later, you know?
	Right. Their whole goal is to work for the district attorney to try to get these charges as efficiently as possible, whatever it takes.
	You know?
	Because then their job is open.
	It's open and shut.
	Then their job is done.
	You know?
	They don't have to, like, burden themselves with proving through this lengthy process.
	Even though that's exactly what the Constitution says they have to do.
	The burden of proof rests on them.
	Yeah, they have to prove.
	Yes, it's a burden.
	Because it sucks.
	You have to go around and do it the right way.
	So they just want to skip right to letter Z. You know?
	I hate it.
	Well, let's get into this.
	Yeah, let's do it.
	Today's episode is going to be, you know, kind of different format, kind of layout thing.
	It's going to be longer.
	It's probably going to be a two-hour episode versus our regular sporadic one to one and a half hour episodes.
	Yeah, we just want to let you guys know there's a lot of information here.
	We include our sort of vocal retelling of the transcript that you can, or the interview that took place.
	And because of that, it extends out the episode a little longer.
	So just know, tuck in, grab your popcorn.
	Grab your favorite stuffed animal, sit back, because it's going to be a little bit of a ride.
	Hope you guys enjoy.
	Well, I think, you know, we're no different.
	I mean, when you think about it, we're all Canadian, you know?
	Yeah, exactly, and I think the history books have given us the wrong information, and as we all know, history is written by the victors, meaning, you know, those who win the battle or the war write the history.
	Yeah, that's usually the case.
	I mean, that's a Winston Churchill quote, right?
	Yeah, I do believe so.
	Anyway, it's not entirely accurate.
	I mean, it's probably a hell of a lot easier to quote-unquote write history back in the day, you know, before we would travel fast, you know?
	There was no instant on-the-go information at our fingertips back then, you know, until the telegraph came along.
	Which was literally one lifetime ago.
	Not a very long time ago.
	Yeah, I mean, technology.
	The whole evolution of technology is just insane, bro.
	It's just progressed.
	I mean, if somebody was brought back to life from ancient years, they'd think it was some kind of black magic or just a demon spirit, like a tablet, like a face talking on a tablet.
	Oh man, they would freak the shit.
	Exactly, dude.
	I mean, we had thousands of years of primitive behavior and primitive tools, like, hitting a couple stones together.
	And we've just, like, progressed.
	Also music.
	Yes, also music at the same time.
	It was very efficient, actually, if you think about it.
	They did it the right way, I guess.
	Multipurpose, yeah.
	A stone symphony.
	But, you know, we progressed and we progressed.
	And, you know, through setbacks and trial and error.
	But then...
	You go right through the period of the so-called Dark Ages, which, I mean, there's still quite a bit written about.
	But then we hit the Renaissance eventually along the way, starting in the 14th century or so, or the 1300s for you younger people who've forgotten how that system works.
	Good call, good call.
	Just educating.
	Anyway, we hit that period of time with the rebirth.
	Culture's booming.
	Art's booming.
	Politics are becoming relevant.
	Medicine is at its peak, right?
	And then the Golden Age comes along right after that, and our knowledge was just at its peak, at its zenith.
	We had Golden Girls?
	No, that's just the show that you...
	Well, never mind.
	Anyways. But yeah, the Golden Age comes along, and...
	You know, our knowledge is exactly where we want it.
	We have telescopes, microscopes being invented, refined, just like a shit ton of railroads are built.
	Agriculture is booming.
	Cities are thriving.
	Ranching, livestock, all of that.
	You know, just huge, huge leaps in education.
	Oh, yeah.
	Which was necessary.
	Yeah, it was necessary at the time because, you know, our population was exploding.
	Which, you know, really changed things, just booming generation upon generation.
	And in a short period of time, like 100 years from, you know, say 1900 until 2000, just in that period of time, all of those exponential increases in just culture in general versus like thousands of years leading up to it.
	Right. Yeah, all those thousands of years of just, like, slow progression, and then we had this small period of time, like the last hundred years or so, it's like this insane boom of technology.
	Yeah, exactly.
	But then, what comes with an education?
	Books. Right, right, yeah, books, yeah.
	And who writes the books?
	Well, that's an interesting question, actually.
	I mean, typically leading up to, you know, the 19th century, perhaps, everything was done.
	I think out of the king's court, right?
	So like anyone who was naturally inclined with knowledge or who just naturally were able to learn a lot very easily over many different subjects, those people would be sought out after, you know, from the king.
	He would send his people out, find these super smart people, bring them back to the court, and then they would work for the court.
	I guess kind of like indentured servitude, really.
	Or, you know, they just get imprisoned or killed or whatever.
	I might be wrong.
	I don't know.
	But I think the king or whoever was in charge would want to have the smartest people working under his command, right?
	Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, knowledge has always been the luxury of the ruling class and the nobles.
	A lot of people, most people couldn't read and write for a very long time.
	And they didn't really need to, honestly.
	But obviously all the nobles had forced studies and things like that.
	So there was a group of people gaining knowledge.
	While the others were held back.
	And we'll get into, you know, we should get into that.
	That's a whole different discussion.
	Yeah. Just the haves and the have-nots.
	But I'm sure you're at least partly correct, if not exactly correct, my friend.
	I mean, you know, this is where we get all our famous writers from, right?
	Like Sir Francis Bacon, Rene Descartes, John Milton, John Locke, Sir Isaac Newton, all the scientists, philosophers, political scientists.
	So yeah, whoever was in charge of a country.
	Whoever had the power and control would seek out these brilliant minds, bring them in, and pretty much, you know, force knowledge out of them.
	Yeah. I guess, you know, knowledge is power, so...
	Yeah, exactly.
	Well, the smarter people had the power back in the day.
	Keep the peasants down in the dirt, in the mud.
	Yep. Making mud piles and...
	Elevate the ruling class, bruh.
	Yeah, exactly.
	It's the same old story.
	But you know what made all that education possible?
	Or at least more easily accessible to the public?
	Or should I say anyone who was wealthy?
	Yeah, what's that?
	The Gutenberg printing press, bro.
	Ah, yes.
	The most influential invention, probably the most useful if you think about it, considering how most inventions are just to make us lazier, or as some would say, give us a better quality of life.
	Yeah, being indolent and slothful equals a higher quality of life, right?
	I do agree with that, but...
	But my point was about who writes the book is that today, the same history that was taught 100 years ago is still being taught in public schools, man.
	Yeah. I mean, yes, there's pockets of where it's starting to change and become updated and people are like, no, I'm not down with that anymore because I know different, thankfully, because of the...
	It's one thing technology has helped.
	It's just like the ease of sharing information.
	Right, right, right.
	It's not all bad.
	But, you know, history that is simply not true or proven to be untrue after the fact, like for example...
	For example, Christopher Columbus, discovering America.
	Big one.
	Fuck that shit, man.
	I mean, we know that isn't true, but it's still taught as matter of fact.
	Like, it's just hard for people to let that go.
	Why is that?
	I think there's still just too much of...
	The people who are in charge making the decisions, that's how they learned it, and that's how who trained them learned it, and that's how the person before them learned it, and it just goes on like that.
	So it's like the familial punishment thing.
	It's like, well, that's how my dad punished me.
	That's how I'm going to punish you.
	Exactly, and I feel like it's going to take – we're probably now getting into the generation that's going to start to undo some of those societal knots that have been around for way too long.
	But we still have a long way to go.
	I mean, we know that Leif Erickson, son of the famed Eric the Red, was the first European to hit up present-day Newfoundland, you know, Canada, back around 1000 AD.
	Canada! Way before Columbus got lost and luckily found land where thousands of people were already living in the 1400s.
	We say he discovered America, but it's like people were already living here for thousands of years, bro.
	Well, and I'm not going to lie.
	When I was a child, because of how I was being taught history in the Catholic school, I imagined America to be this vast, empty land, not a person in sight,
	just animals and nature and mountains, because that's how it was being pitched.
	Yeah. Come to find out, all these years later, really not that long ago when I started learning all this, there were millions and millions of people here, man.
	Yeah, bro.
	They've been living here for thousands of years in harmony.
	Yeah, in harmony with the land, and they had their own technology.
	Everything was working just fine for them.
	You know what I mean?
	Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
	And they weren't taking too much.
	They weren't stripping resources of what was around.
	They weren't pumping the ground for oil.
	They weren't mining.
	The ground for gold and silver.
	Yeah. I mean, there was respect.
	Much respect.
	You know, like deep respect.
	Yeah. And all Columbus really did was directly assist in destroying an entire culture.
	Absolutely. So my point is that, you know, why aren't the history books being completely rewritten to present factual education?
	Why are we being taught lies coming from the very top?
	That being the Department of Education.
	You know what I mean?
	Well, I do.
	I do.
	And it's actually Betsy DeVos, who was the 12th Secretary of Education.
	She was a piece of work.
	In 2017, she revoked or removed 72 guidance documents of the Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services, which outlined the rights of disabled students under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act and the Rehabilitation Act.
	And in 2019, she attempted to cut federal funding for the Special Olympics from the department's budget.
	Yeah. It was unsuccessful, just like the previous two attempts.
	Wow. Yeah, bro.
	She was so bad that during a commencement speech at the Bethune-Cookman University, which is a historically black college.
	She's a freaking wraith, dude.
	Just an evil woman.
	Pretty much the entire crowd of students booed her and more than half literally stood up and turned their backs to her.
	She is not a likable person.
	Dude, that's so awesome.
	And during one of her pitiful speeches in 2018, she said that the American Federation of Teachers, or the AFT, found that 60% of its teachers reported having moderate to no influence over the content and skills taught in their own classrooms.
	And in response to her statements, the AFT said that in the same survey that DeVos refers to.
	86% of the 5,000 educators said that they felt that DeVos disrespected them.
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	The very teachers that take, disseminate, and teach to students the curriculum that DeVos decided would be taught to students, well, they all hated her and probably still do.
	And she's still in charge?
	No, no, no, no.
	She was forced to resign on January 7th, 2021, the day after she took her bra off at the top.
	of the Capitol steps.
	raised it in the air while waving around and said, Run, and you'll live.
	At least a while.
	And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one
	chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!
	What?
	That's a sweet Braveheart clip.
	Yes, yes.
	Like, when you're all at home, dying in your beds.
	Yes, yes.
	So the guy in charge now is Dr. Miguel A. Cardona.
	Don't know much about him, but I don't see any significant changes or improvements in terms of correcting history ever happening.
	No, I still see a very draconian and post-apocalyptic Orwellian Fahrenheit kind of 451 sort of vibe happening pretty soon.
	Agreed, man.
	Agreed. I truly think that society will crumble, just like how it's been portrayed in movies.
	You know, a dystopian society like the German 1927 Fritz Lang film, Metropolis.
	Massive piece of work.
	It was the most expensive film of the time at around 5 million marks, which was about 1.2 million then in US dollars.
	And that's about 16 million dollars today.
	But it's pretty much, it pretty much put the film industry in Germany into bankruptcy.
	The film, no joke, the film had 37,000 extras.
	Oh my gosh.
	Yeah, specific extras, like 25,000 men, 11,000 women, 1,100 bald men, 750 children, 100 dark-skinned people, and 25 Asians.
	And that comes from ClassicMovieClub.com.
	That's impressive, man.
	Damn. I mean, that's a lot of bald men to just have in one place.
	1,100.
	Yeah, and 100 dark-skinned people.
	Okay. And only 25 Asians.
	That's kind of interesting.
	Yeah, I'll have to watch it.
	And H.G. Wells actually thought it was, well, in his words, it was the silliest film I've ever seen with a sort of malignant stupidity.
	Well, maybe I won't see it.
	Oh! Bro, H.G. Wells, I have an interesting fact about that guy real quick.
	Awesome, let's hear it.
	He was actually a science teacher in London somewhere in 1889 for one year.
	The school had only about 13 students.
	Wow. And it was actually run out of John Milna's home.
	Now, John Milna had a son who was one of those 13 students.
	His name was Alan Alexander Milna, the author of Winnie the Pooh.
	Oh, yeah.
	That's pretty crazy, dude.
	Yeah, dude.
	And he said Wells was not a good teacher.
	Probably wasn't.
	He didn't like being there.
	I mean, he wanted to be a journalist, so...
	Anyway, Metropolis was actually a huge flop at the time.
	That's so sad because it cost them so much money.
	Oh, the budget was just astronomical.
	But now it's a cult classic at this time, but you should still watch it.
	Yeah, I mean, all those bald guys are like, dang, what am I going to do now?
	Yeah. That was their big break.
	That was my big break.
	No other producer's going to want another bald man.
	Yeah, like, I thought this was it.
	Yeah, they all talk to each other.
	Do you think the director saw me?
	Do you think I have another part?
	Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like, hey, man, let me get this shine, like, just perfect.
	Put some of that boot shine on my skull up there.
	Yeah, give me some of that Crisco.
	Well, Scott, I just want to update you on some interesting little facts about our show here.
	Oh, sweet, doggie.
	Yeah, well, it seems our show, the Paranautica Podcast, appeals to the 35 to 60-plus-year-olds.
	Oh, whoa, whoa, all right.
	With the majority being between 45 and 59. Oh, okay.
	And about 85% are male.
	Yeah. Go figure.
	About 7% are female.
	Nice. And about 7% are unspecified.
	Okay. But we have gone worldwide with listeners over there in France, Belgium, Netherlands, the United Kingdom, Poland.
	And Spain, bro.
	Yes. And Canada, of course.
	We love you, Canada.
	Love you, Canada.
	Love you guys.
	And we have listeners in the Philippines.
	What? And in South Korea.
	Dude, my dogs.
	And I am very happy that we have reached India and are amassing a following there.
	Hello, India.
	Nice. Hello, India.
	And I have an announcement for listeners in India.
	Scott here will challenge anyone there to a game of chess.
	We can set it up online.
	Winner gets a head of cabbage.
	Absolutely, man.
	I guess you remember my legendary chess skills from years prior.
	These fingertips are ready to destroy.
	Scott here recently beat Deep Blue twice.
	Two times in a row.
	Well, come on now.
	I like accolades and compliments, you know, maybe even a little glory from time to time, but cool.
	That's just too much.
	Well, welcome everyone to the Paranautica Podcast.
	Thank you all for listening and please keep sharing and giving us five-star ratings and all the wonderful reviews everywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts.
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	This is all for you guys.
	We know what it's like when you just want to hear a new podcast or something original and just want to find something a little different.
	So this is all for you guys and gals.
	And remember, we put a new episode out every week.
	So click that subscribe button so you know when a new episode hits.
	And it's usually Wednesday or Thursday.
	Yes. Go out into the streets.
	Yell at others to listen to us.
	Shout our name from the rooftops.
	And when they say they will, just yell louder.
	Then abruptly stop.
	Attempt to shake their hand and say, Thank you.
	I'm not sure if that'll be an effective method, but you never know.
	Eh, it's worked for me.
	Yeah. Well, Scott, I was told that you have a good nugget for us on the old Brian Kohlberger case, the suspected Moscow-Idaho quadruple murderer.
	Yeah. Hopefully, all of our listeners have been sort of tuning into this story, you know, maybe a little bit here and there.
	For those of you who don't know, what Coop is referring to is a murder that took place in November of last year by suspected Brian Christopher Koberger, who was 28 when he was arrested.
	And it's just one of the most grisly and pointless and just, and I know these are my opinions, but just horrible murders that we've had in a long time.
	It's just, from what the evidence...
	Everybody, you know, the police have gathered.
	It just seems like one of those typical male not getting what he wants type thing takes it out on some innocent females, you know.
	And then, of course, the boyfriend who wasn't there.
	But I'm getting ahead of myself.
	Brian Christopher Koberker, last year in November, stabbed to death four college students.
	Kaylee Guncalvis, 21, Madison Mogan, 21, Zanna Kurnodal, 20, and Kurnodal's boyfriend, who was sleeping in the bed at the time, Ethan Chapin, who was also 20. Each of the victims were stabbed multiple times in the early morning hours of November 13,
	2022, at an off-campus house in the small college town of Moscow.
	Now, this was like...
	For a long time, the police didn't let any details out about the case other than who was involved or who was killed.
	Yeah, who was killed.
	And so it just rocked the United States and, you know, probably other places in the world.
	But it just seemed like nobody had any leads.
	Nobody had any information on who it could possibly be.
	And so everyone was thinking the same thing.
	Like, oh man, is the person who did this just going to get away?
	You know, like, is this going to be one of those...
	Cold cases where four innocent college students were killed and nothing ever happened.
	But come to find out, the police had actually been gathering evidence since day one.
	They had a pretty good idea of who it was.
	And I'll elaborate a little bit on some of that evidence right now.
	So first, I'm actually going to get into a little background about who this Brian Koberger suspect actually is.
	From the articles that we've looked up on CNN US, Koberger is a graduate student, or was a graduate student, I should say, at Washington State University's Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology.
	He had just finished his first semester as a PhD student in the school's criminal justice program earlier in December, and the university said, So, you know,
	this is kind of typical.
	Guy getting deep into the criminal justice world.
	And I don't know, Coop, I don't know what you think about this, but maybe he thinks, oh, well, I have so much information.
	I could commit a crime and just, I know exactly what to do so no one could ever catch me.
	Right. I think it's a lot of, I don't know, he was so confident in his abilities.
	Like, he was infatuated with serial killers, that whole thing.
	And, I mean, something's wrong with his brain, obviously, if he thinks he can just go do this to begin with.
	He was well-versed in serial killer knowledge.
	He had a lot of books on serial killers.
	He was researching them a lot.
	He was asking his students to tell him, because he was an assistant teacher or something, or he was doing part of that.
	Yeah, he was an assistant professor while he was in his PhD studies.
	Right, and he was asking his students to write out a survey about their latest crime or what they felt during their crimes.
	What emotions were being elicited during their crime or something like that?
	Right. I think you're referring to that post that he had on Reddit.
	It's now been removed.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah, since his arrest was made public.
	But yes, it was removed from Reddit.
	Now, after his arrest, it was made public.
	But Brian actually had sought participation in a quote-unquote research project on Reddit to understand how emotions and psychological traits influence decision-making when committing a crime.
	So, I mean, you know, he did all this background research before even, you know, committing this crime.
	And I know we're using, you know, language that we're basically assuming that he did commit it, but there's just too much evidence at this point.
	You know, I definitely think he did do it.
	But yeah, so he has all this background knowledge, and he's talking to serial killers, and he's getting hyped up.
	And then he messed up big time, bro, and he left evidence with his DNA at the scene.
	Oh, the sheath.
	I don't know if you...
	Yes, exactly.
	So while the police are investigating the crime scene, they find this sheath, a sheath to a knife, a fixed blade knife, they're assuming.
	And it has...
	This dude's DNA on it, man.
	Placing him right there, this dropped sheath.
	How else would the sheath be there?
	But he drops this sheath.
	When the police apprehended him, of course, they seized his phone.
	They seized all of his personal belongings.
	And as they're going through these archived phone records, they're seeing that his phone is pinging off of cell phone towers in the area as many as 12 times before this crime was committed.
	And suspiciously, not around.
	So heading in the direction of the house where everybody was murdered on the night of, or the early morning of, I should say.
	And then comes back into blipping, you know, off the cell phone towers, right after the crimes were suspected to be committed.
	And it just looks so fishy.
	Like, what are you going to do?
	You know, like, how do you explain that?
	How do you do it?
	You can't.
	Yeah, he's driving on the highways.
	He's coming back into town.
	His white Hyundai Elantra is on video.
	And he kept the car.
	And then, like, even several days before he got the plates changed, I think in an effort to sort of, like, throw off the police investigation.
	Like, oh, no, it's the wrong plates.
	Yeah, because he switched them to Washington plates.
	Yeah, exactly.
	He switched to Washington plates.
	And then, suspiciously, of course, flees.
	After committing the crime to his parents' house in Pennsylvania, and that's where he was arrested.
	That's unreal.
	Same car.
	Yep, same car.
	Just, you know, suspicious evidence.
	Everything's there.
	It's like, dude, this guy's hit.
	There's no way.
	Yeah, man.
	I know there's a former university professor that taught him in one of the classes, and the professor said that Coburg was one of his best students, one of her best students.
	And there's also a very famous, renowned author named Catherine Ramsland, who is a forensic psychologist.
	She's super famous.
	She's done a lot of work with FBI and police forces on how to catch killers and stuff like that, which is actually one of her books.
	She's written 68 books, by the way.
	How to Catch a Killer is one of them, so she's in that area of knowledge.
	But she and he were actually talking to each other.
	Oh, wow.
	Yeah, and so Catherine Ramsland, she's actually in contact with a bunch of serial killers in prisons.
	You know, she talks to them quite frequently.
	And so Koberger, you know, he's had this infatuation with serial killers for a long time.
	And so she kind of got him in contact with, I think, BTK.
	Oh, wow.
	Or he wanted to get in contact with BTK.
	Jeez. Who is, fuck, what's his name?
	BTK being Dennis Rader, the American serial killer who's killed many, many people.
	Brutal murders.
	So it's just interesting that he was using her to get closer to these serial killers so he could talk to them personally, which is interesting.
	Very interesting.
	Yeah, it's also just all the more damning when you look at his case in general.
	This guy was just a little bit too interested.
	And when you're talking about motive, there are a couple theories.
	One of the theories is that he's just one of those people that wanted girls and never got them.
	He actually, there's records of him reaching out to one of the victims via Instagram.
	They never actually spoke, but he reached out several times and just said, hey, how you doing?
	She never responded.
	So he, again, later on, hey, how you doing?
	Yeah, what a creeper.
	You know, one of the victims.
	So here's this, these two people have never met.
	He reaches out on Instagram, doesn't hear, suddenly they're murdered.
	I mean, dude, there's just so much evidence that this dude is the dude that killed all four of those students.
	Yeah, and it just brings me right back to how, being as knowledgeable as he was, how would you make those stupid mistakes?
	I mean, everything's connecting directly to him.
	You'd think he was smart enough to not leave all those trails.
	You know what I mean?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Studying criminology for however long he has a PhD or is working on a PhD or whatever.
	He's an intelligent dude, but that's where I think his overconfidence kind of, I don't know.
	It was just like it led to his demise.
	He probably thought he was so ironclad and everything that he wouldn't make any mistakes just like any other rookie murderer, if you will.
	And he made all the mistakes, dude.
	Every single one.
	There are serial killers out there who are stupid as fuck.
	Literally, IQ is like in the 60s range, right?
	Who get away with numerous serial killings.
	Yeah. And it's like, they're not educated.
	They're just dumber than a box of rocks, right?
	And then this guy makes the stupidest mistakes, gets caught immediately.
	Yeah. I mean, part of, I think, for some of those other serial killers is like, their crime is truly random.
	You know, no connection.
	Whatsoever, but he clearly made a connection or was trying to make a connection with one of these girls.
	And I mean, it just, who knows?
	Like, so people make mistakes in crimes of passion.
	If his mistakes are attributed to a crime of passion, like in the moment, if he just got so heated, what's he getting heated about?
	You know, is it like his ego?
	Is he just like so upset at females for not giving him what he wants that he's just like, ah!
	I think so.
	Then he made those mistakes?
	I mean, that's troubling too, you know, that he, it would.
	Well, yeah, I mean, it sounds like the dude is an incel.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Yeah, you know, incel, for those who don't know, involuntary celibacy, which is what an incel, a guy, you know, a male.
	Penta. Who tries so hard to get women, but they suck at getting women.
	I don't know what it is about it, but.
	They call those involuntary celibates, so incels.
	Incels. And they usually kill people because they're so angry.
	He just seems like one of those people.
	There was another, this is an aside, but there was an influencer not too long ago that was killed by her family friend.
	This guy had been hovering around, another incel, kind of like Brian Koberger.
	She is just a young, pretty girl, probably didn't think anything of him, but he's always hovering around her.
	And eventually he made a video, a live stream of him stabbing her to death, her dead body.
	And he was just like, now you guys are going to have to find someone else to orbit.
	No one can have her.
	It's so disgusting.
	It's like another famous incel, Elliot Rodger.
	He was super misogynistic.
	He had a ton of YouTube videos about how women are just horrible because none of them like him.
	I mean, this guy had a lot of issues.
	I think he was in Canada, I believe.
	Elliot Rodger.
	But he ended up killing six people and then killed himself because he was just a fucking incel.
	And other incels look up to him as being a hero, which is so fucking pathetic.
	Yeah, that's disgusting to me.
	Oh, man.
	But he's not going anywhere.
	I mean, there was DNA recovered at the crime scene that matches his DNA profile.
	And when they arrested him at his family's residence in Pennsylvania, they found DNA in the trash that also...
	Matched his DNA profile in the same profile that was found at the crime scene.
	So, I mean, he's, yeah, this is clearly the guy.
	What if it's not the guy?
	What if, in the end of this, it's like, we had the wrong guy the whole time?
	There is part of me that, you know, has watched too many movies that is like, what if this is just the most clever setup and he's just the fall guy?
	Right, man.
	He's just the fall guy.
	He had some sort of competition in the PhD program, and this guy was like, you know what?
	I'm going to murder these girls.
	Yeah, they set him up, bro.
	Took his car, gave him a roofie.
	He's out cold the whole time.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Perfect movie.
	It's the perfect movie.
	No, I don't think that's the case.
	I think you did it.
	Yeah, I want to withhold judgment, but...
	I mean, everything points directly to him at this point.
	Yeah, everything like the evidence.
	Yeah, everything like the evidence points directly toward him.
	But yeah, we'll keep you guys updated.
	If you're not, check out the story.
	I mean, it's not for entertainment or anything like that, but just check it out.
	I mean, these kinds of things are important so we can keep an eye out for creepy fuckers like this guy in the future.
	Just for safety reasons.
	But yeah, we'll bring you more updates as the trial gets underway, whenever that's going to be, and more information comes to light.
	Speaking of trial, I have my own little update.
	Oh, okay.
	Well, as the world looked on, yet another corrupt and powerful lawyer went down.
	That's right.
	Alex Murdaugh of the high and mighty Murdaugh dynasty in South Carolina.
	A family of prominent lawyers, starting with Randolph Murdaugh Sr., who held the 14th Circuit Solicitor, which had full power of the prosecutor's office over five counties.
	Oh.
	Well, he died when his car was struck by a train after his car became stuck on the tracks.
	I mean, I can't help but picture him just sitting there like, oh, what am I to do?
	And then the train comes.
	Yeah, why aren't my slaves here to push me off?
	Then Randolph Murdaugh, his son, took over until he retired, and the position was passed to Randolph Murdaugh, a lot of Randolphs, who decided to leave that to hit up the family law firm, which the old man started in 1910.
	That guy, he had four children, one being Richard Alexander Murdaugh, and Richard Murdaugh is better known as Alex Murdaugh, and he was just found guilty of murdering his wife and his youngest son.
	Yep, and his youngest son.
	And he was then sentenced to two consecutive life sentences, not concurrent, which run together, essentially as one sentence, but he was given two, which are to be served one death after the other, which will be difficult to do, but I think he can do it.
	If anyone can do it, he can do it.
	He can do it.
	I'm sure he will file appeals, and who knows what will happen after that.
	We have seen some pretty crazy shit happen.
	So what was the motive?
	He still claims he's innocent, as one would suspect, but it's thought that everything was unraveling around him.
	He admitted completely to lying to his clients and robbing them of millions of dollars.
	And this was coming to light.
	And one day, or the day before these killings happened, I think his secretary or an accountant or someone informed him that a substantial amount of money was missing and could not be accounted for.
	And then I think the next day these crimes happened.
	But the man did admit to spending upwards of $60,000 on narcotics a month.
	Illegally, of course.
	He was getting those from his cousin Eddie.
	And he said that he was taking about 60 oxycodone, which were 30 milligram instant release each.
	And when I first heard that, I'm like, that's fucking bullshit.
	No one can take that much and live, man.
	But apparently, that's not true.
	Apparently it's frequent.
	A certain Dr. Penske told Inside Edition that his patients average 30 to 60 pills of similar strength daily.
	So I was pretty amazed to hear that.
	That's insane.
	I never in a million years would have thought that.
	No, man.
	And with an addiction like that over a period of 20 years, which he had that addiction on painkillers for about 20 years, your cognitive functioning sort of declines a little.
	Absolutely. Which is amazing to think, well, either Alex Murdoch was really, really good at his job, or he was just a very functional addict.
	Yeah, or both.
	Until it all came crashing down around him with the discovery of those stolen funds.
	Some of his colleagues knew, but what do you do when you have a great paying position and you have family to support and you have bills to pay?
	You don't want to rock the boat?
	No, man.
	So as for the motive, his status and images as a stand-up prominent lawyer, I mean, it's over.
	Truth's coming out, and if there's one thing we know about the common denominator of the so-called family annihilator is that it appears that the...
	Prompting the event is always something to do with their reputation or their name or their status in the community.
	When that status is threatened or ruined, these guys usually end up, you know, a lot of times they kill their family.
	I mean, that's the family annihilator.
	It's a real phenomenon.
	The common denominator is like shit is just unfolding around them.
	Their reputation is tainted and they mentally go off the rocker and do some really stupid shit.
	Okay, so...
	We are going to do something a little different here today.
	We are going to go over the distressing and heinous case of Ryan Waller.
	Now, the way we'll do this is essentially we'll be going over a police interrogation of Ryan Waller.
	This interrogation is unlike any other you've ever seen, unless of course you've seen this.
	But this story, this interrogation is almost incomprehensible when all the facts come together.
	Now, let's be clear.
	A crime certainly took place, and we'll go over a lot of those details as we go through this.
	And also keep in mind that there are disagreements about the dates that this whole thing took place among law enforcement and the Waller family.
	But we are going to use the quote-unquote official story and kind of break it all down.
	So on December 25, 2006, Don Waller and his wife were having a Christmas get-together and were patiently waiting for their son, 18-year-old Ryan Waller, who had recently graduated high school and his 21-year-old girlfriend of about eight months.
	Heather Kwan.
	Ryan and Heather were living together in a rented house with a third roommate, Alicia, in a suburb of the Valley of the Sun, which would be Phoenix.
	Oh, sounds lovely.
	Sounds lovely.
	And Ryan's parents couldn't be more thrilled to have their son and his girlfriend and possibly daughter-in-law over for the jubilant evening.
	And Heather was beautiful, smart, bubbly, and was very kind-hearted.
	As time ticked by and there was no sign of Ryan and Heather, Don and his wife grew anxious.
	Not only are Ryan and Heather strangely late, but neither have even called to let them know that they had a hold up or whatever and would be running late.
	So according to court documents, Ryan's mother decided to call him because, you know, maybe he forgot about the Christmas party, which would be ridiculous in any circumstance because he was not forgetful for those sorts of things.
	There was no answer every time they called either of them, each call going straight to voicemail.
	And by around 6 or 7 p.m., they knew something was not right.
	Ryan's parents then decided it would be a good idea to drive across town to Ryan and Heather's house, just to, you know, let's just go over there ourselves and see what is going on.
	Once they arrived, they began knocking and looking around, but again, they didn't get any answer.
	Also, the garage was closed, so they couldn't even tell if the car was inside or if they were even gone.
	It was at this point that they became truly worried and called the police to ask them to come to the house to do a wellness check on their son and his girlfriend right around 8 p.m.
	Dispatch advised them that they would call Don back when an officer was available.
	Oh, man, the old call back when I can.
	Jeez. After that, they decided they would go to a nearby coffee shop and wait for that call.
	Alright, this is just weird how this next part all worked out.
	So, Ryan and his girlfriend Heather, Quan, they live together with a third person, a woman named Alicia.
	So, Don and his wife leave Ryan's house to go to the coffee shop, and the police have not arrived at the house yet, obviously.
	But someone else does.
	Alicia. Now this is the what the fuck moment.
	Alicia comes home, unlocks the door, she walks inside, relocks it behind her, and then walks through the house, past the living room where Heather is laying on the couch.
	Alicia walks past and goes straight to her bedroom and closes the door.
	She never looked around when she walked through the house.
	So this would be somewhere between 9pm and 11pm.
	The Phoenix police would then arrive, get this, right around midnight.
	Ryan's parents called them around 8pm.
	This is for the wellness check, right?
	Yeah, it's about four hours later.
	Four hours later.
	So the cops knock on the front door, get no answer.
	Then they walked around back, still got no answer, knocked in windows, nothing.
	Alicia eventually heard the knocks, but she assumed that either Ryan or Heather would answer the door.
	So apparently Alicia did think that they were both home.
	So at this point, the police would start to look through the windows a little more intently to see if they could spot anything unusual inside.
	And soon they would spot a body which would later be identified as
	Heather Kwan.
	Now, you'd think they'd cordon off the area and break down the door to gain entry, right?
	Not these guys.
	They would actually call in to get a search warrant and would then wait for a little over an hour before a judge would actually sign off on that warrant.
	And then they could go inside.
	Okay, okay.
	So at this point, it's probably 1.30 a.m. on the 26th of December, probably around that time.
	I would assume that any police officer who sees a body inside of a house that they were called to to conduct a wellness check would immediately call for backup or call for an ambulance, definitely secure the scene in some way.
	But maybe they do things a little bit differently in Phoenix.
	Yeah. I don't know.
	I would like to think that, you know, being in that specific situation, that it would be what is called exigent circumstances, which would allow them to do exactly what Ryan's parents were asking them to do, which was getting inside by any means immediately.
	Yeah. Oh, you saw a body in there?
	Huh. I called you here to do a wellness check on my son and his girlfriend because they aren't answering their phones, and it's Christmas?
	Yeah, no, no, you're right.
	Let's just wait for a search warrant.
	When we're on a ruin that Jakanda shine door they just had installed for $35,000, or that African blackwood trim accentuating the Swarovski crystals embedded in the Jakanda, that would be an absolute shame.
	So this comes from the YouTube video Searching for Justice, the Ryan Waller story.
	And it is kind of a mini documentary that the creator made of this case, and he gives this explanation of exigent circumstances.
	When the police arrive anywhere, if they look into a residence and see a body they believe to be injured or unresponsive, whether it's owned or rented, they have the legal ability to enter that house by any means in order to possibly save that person's life.
	It's called exigent circumstances, and it's specifically intended for this exact situation.
	But Scott, the police didn't exercise the exigent circumstances despite seeing a body inside the house.
	They patiently waited for that search warrant.
	But you know what?
	Let's just forget about that part for a moment.
	Let's just, you know, brush that to the side for now.
	Do you know what they did once they got that search warrant, Scott?
	Well, I mean, just based on what I've heard so far, I'm going to have to surmise that they threw a bang-bang flash boom through the window and rappelled down from the rooftop.
	Swinging into their windows, shattering them, of course, in dramatic fashion.
	Smoke's billowing around, and the music is just like cranking hard rock.
	Lead detective Steve Buscemi, you know, kicks down that Chikanda door.
	He's got a Thompson machine gun in his left hand and a Beretta Pica in his right.
	Just 12 grenades on a vest with straps of shotgun shells.
	And then I imagine he spits out his chewed-up cigar.
	But thick tobacco, you know, kind of just drools down from his chin.
	And as it drops to the floor, he says, You don't know how long I've wanted to do that, Sullivan!
	Oh! Retain the rights to that script, buddy.
	What is that, a Peacock TV original?
	Gun-laden Steve Buscemi plays washed-up, thrice-divorced alcoholic and whippet addict lead detective hell-bent on stopping crime at all costs, even when there is no crime being committed, as if he is the only one committing it?
	I dig it.
	And I like how he's holding a massive machine gun in his left hand while he's holding one of the smallest handguns ever made in his right.
	That is great.
	But no, Scott, the police would not enter the residence in Charles Bronson style despite having the search warrant to do so.
	Ah, yes, the Charles Bronson warrant.
	That one's hard to get these days.
	It's hard to find a judge to sign off on that one.
	It was a little bit controversial during the 1980s and early 90s.
	Indeed. You know, old Graniteface was born the 11th of 15 children.
	Hmm. Must have been Catholics.
	His parents were, yeah.
	And his real last name was Buchinski.
	They were Lithuanian.
	And I was interested, though, how many people did Charles Bronson kill throughout his career?
	Because he was a pretty prolific actor, huge in the 70s, but he had 160 acting credits between 1949 and 1999, which is about three movies each year for 50 years, plus another 78 television appearances and 12 unaccredited parts.
	But how many people did he kill?
	Well, I don't know.
	I couldn't find the total, but I surmise that it was a lot.
	In just his Death Wish saga alone, I think there were five of those.
	He killed 116 people, so, I mean, he began his career doing westerns and transitioned into action film, so he pretty much had guns in his hands his entire career.
	Yeah, he was a busy guy.
	I see here that he started smoking cigs at age nine, and he was spit and chew before that.
	And, and I know this is kind of weird, but he was a germaphobe.
	I guess he started working in the mines over there in the coal state of Pennsylvania when he was around 16. And then he got his first role in the 1951 film, You're in the Navy Now, because he could burp on command?
	Yeah. Actually, that was one of his unaccredited parts.
	But yeah, he actually could burp on command and he got that part.
	Oh, and holy shit, he was also a bubble gunner in World War II, and he flew more than 25 missions against the then-enemy Japanese.
	Then, not now.
	And he got a Purple Heart for injuries that he got.
	Damn, what a crazy motherfucker, man.
	No shit.
	Anyway, let's move on from that.
	Enough of old granite-faced Charles Bronson.
	So, Scott, the cops would finally get that search warrant that they so desperately needed to enter the house at which they could see an unresponsive body.
	But what do you think they do?
	Well... I suppose they probably don't enter like I first suspected they would.
	At least not right away.
	So... What the fuck, man?
	I don't know.
	Waited for someone who lived there to open the door?
	I mean, it would have to happen eventually, right?
	They call a locksmith.
	Are you serious?
	They call a locksmith?
	Seriously? Is that a joke?
	Am I being Ashton Kutcher right now?
	They call a locksmith.
	They call a locksmith.
	Man, what the fuck is happening out there in Phoenix?
	Like, who are these cops?
	What training is this?
	This makes no sense.
	The locksmith arrives, and they would go to work on the front door for a while.
	But they couldn't get in, so they move around to the back door.
	And once they shuffle themselves around to the back, they find that there are two doors.
	So they flip a coin.
	Oh, my God.
	Well, I'm not shocked.
	Kidding. There was a sliding glass door that led into the kitchen, and then there was a normal door that led into what looked like a bedroom.
	So they chose that door.
	There was no flipping of a coin.
	Ah. That we know of.
	That we know of.
	That we know of, yeah.
	While the locksmith was licking his wet lips while going to town on one of the finest little foreign locks.
	You know which locks I'm talking about, right, Scott?
	Oh yeah, those Brazilian locks.
	Those fine strips of engraving.
	That dark copper color gets me every time I see one.
	Love those locks.
	While the locksmith is picking away at the lock, the door suddenly opens from the inside and standing there is a man who has clearly been hit in the face, seeing that he had one of the worst black eyes and another partially blackened eye and some other injuries to his face.
	He looked like he was in a fight for sure.
	Immediately, the police took him down to the ground as other officers rushed past to the body on the couch and discovered that the woman on the couch had been shot in the head at least once.
	The police naturally suspected that the beat-up man who opened the door was the killer of the girl on the couch.
	And I mean, I just want to say that, yeah, in the moment, yeah, that would make sense, right?
	So, I mean, I don't know.
	You know, like, you see this body on the couch.
	I guess this guy's been in a fight, but just to assume, like, the dude is still there, I just think that seems too convenient.
	You know, like, why wouldn't this person who just killed this girl, you know, they have all this time, right?
	Before they see the body and then they call the locksmith.
	In that time, don't you think the person who had perpetrated the crime would have left?
	I mean, maybe.
	Maybe or maybe there was some mental health going on that they stayed behind.
	I mean, I don't know.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Or I suppose the person's maybe trying to doctor up and clean up the crime scene a little bit.
	It could be.
	But in the standpoint of the police officers, they just arrived, they see a dead woman on the couch, and then this dude's beat-up face, he opens the door, and it's like, alright, let's put two and two together.
	It's gotta be that guy, right?
	Sure, sure.
	She probably hit him in the face, gave him a black eye or whatever, and then he killed her.
	Yeah, like there's some kind of defensive wounds or something.
	Just to give a little credit to the police department, it's hard to say, but...
	We'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
	So the man was quickly handcuffed, placed under arrest, and put into a patrol car where he waited for a total of four hours.
	By this point, Alicia is now being questioned and is shocked at everything going on.
	You know, she just got home from work and everything was perfectly normal to her.
	But Alicia would inform them that she lives there with Ryan Waller and Heather Kwan and that the man they placed under arrest is Ryan while the woman on the couch is Heather.
	So the police quickly called for paramedics to look at Heather, but for some reason, they wouldn't look at Ryan's injuries, which were very apparent.
	I just feel like it seems like one of those things that happens way too often here.
	You know, they're like, oh, well, fuck this guy.
	He's a dude.
	He'll be fine.
	He just murdered his girlfriend.
	So any wounds he has, you know, and on Christmas, no less.
	So you know like their sympathy for the guy was like nil after they got in there finally.
	They didn't care about him at all other than packing him into an already overly crowded
	Yeah, and that's pretty much how they handled the situation.
	So, after sitting in the back of the patrol car for four hours, the police finally drove him to the Phoenix Police Department, where they booked him into their system, which probably took a little while, and then they let him into a room for further interrogation at about 5 in the morning of the 26th.
	During this interrogation, the detectives would, before anything else, photograph his feet and swab his feet, presumably for blood.
	And I'm guessing there were bloody footprints at the house, so, you know, they wanted to match those prints and just make sure, forensically, that they checked all their boxes.
	And then, the actual questioning would begin.
	The whole time leading up to this point, Ryan had been complaining that his head was hurting and that he was very tired, but all of his complaints fell on deaf ears despite the very obvious facial injuries that Ryan was suffering.
	During the questioning, which is recorded on video, Ryan is very clearly tired.
	Not only does he constantly tell the detectives that he is tired.
	And he's all beat up.
	Completely beat up.
	And at one point, he stands up and tries to walk around, but the chain that connects his wrist to the table stops him, and it's like he wasn't even aware that he was handcuffed to it.
	And then he also rests his head in his arms on the table many times, as one would do if they were actually tired and just wanted to go to sleep, you know?
	Right. I mean, also considering that he'd just been arrested, his girlfriend is dead, most likely saw her be killed.
	Now he's in a room being questioned by the police like he's the one that did it.
	I mean, do you think your heartbeat would be up or you'd be alert?
	Just like, oh, what's going on here?
	There's just no way.
	You'd think you'd be alert.
	You'd think you'd be like, oh my God, what is happening right now?
	So, there are many times where he mumbles his speech as he responds to the detective's questions, and sometimes he repeats the same few words as if they were a complete sentence, and other times he would contradict himself.
	He would explain versions of events that are jumbled and confused, and would then change those versions of events with different facts being omitted or other facts being added, and the whole interrogation is just a total mindfuck.
	And then when you finally understand all of the facts behind it...
	It just leaves you speechless.
	I mean, I found myself saying what the fuck more than once.
	And I repeat here...
	Yeah, dude.
	I mean, his left eye is fully swollen, completely swollen shut.
	His right eyes are partially swollen, but there's dark bruising forming around it, especially below his eye.
	You can't really tell from the interrogation footage very well, but you can see there's an injury on the left side of his nose even.
	And when you see photos of his face that they took, you can easily see a straight up hole in the side of his face, a hole in the side of his face on the left side of his nose and below the
	eye.
	You can clearly see that.
	Actually, I think it's on the cover art for this episode, right?
	Yeah, yeah, it is.
	To the police, Ryan's injuries looked to be at least a day old.
	The blood around his nose was dried, and they appeared to assume that the injuries were superficial, meaning that the injuries were not even classifiable under the abbreviated injury scale, or the IAS.
	And at the top of the IAS is maximal injury, which means either there is no save in your leg, arm, hand, finger, or perhaps even your life.
	Moving down the scale is critical, then severe, then serious, then moderate,
	Yeah, yeah.
	Such as the splits.
	Yeah, the splits.
	You don't want to get the splits.
	Don't want to get the splits.
	So with that said, the police didn't find it necessary for the paramedics on scene to look at Ryan's superficial injuries.
	Now, I don't want to direct any certain narrative here because that is not what we do here.
	Yeah, and by the way, the views expressed on the Paranautica Podcast Network do not necessarily represent the views of the hosts.
	Or... Exactly.
	And I try to play the devil's advocate in most scenarios as much as possible.
	With that being said, the facts are the facts, and this case is full of them.
	Some inblatant view.
	Yes, literally popping out right in your face.
	Well, I mean their faces.
	We should point out here that the Phoenix Police Department doesn't have a very good track record.
	But to be fair, most if not all larger metropolitan area police departments, and well, I'm sure it's safe to say that most if not all of smaller cities' police departments, have their shortfalls and various degrees of corruption, no matter how big or small.
	Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, it's humans.
	Humans are far from perfect.
	And I think we're all cognizant to the fact that each department sort of protects their own.
	Like if there's an officer being blamed for something, maybe it's a citizen or maybe it's a fellow officer making a complaint, there will always be other officers and essentially the whole force standing behind that officer being blamed more times than not.
	And that officer making a complaint is ostracized and harassed by the department and other officers, usually in an effort to...
	Make them leave or to drop the complaint or say, you know what?
	I was wrong.
	I was overreacting.
	Blah, blah, blah.
	It just gets shut down.
	And this is not a secret in any way.
	It's pretty open.
	I mean, this is just how they operate.
	Sort of a brotherhood.
	And sometimes we even hear just how deep these interdepartment relationships are.
	I mean, we just had Tyree Nichols being beaten to death by a literal gang of police officers, and it was recorded.
	And that was certainly not an isolated incident.
	This comes on the heels of all kinds of other police brutality incidents this nation's been facing in the last decade.
	This shit happens all over the United States, and it's pretty fucking ridiculous that it just continues and continues and continues.
	Oh, no.
	Oh, no.
	Oh, man, I can't believe it.
	No, you called it.
	Sorry, bro.
	Some people started singing it not knowing what it was.
	And they'll continue singing it forever.
	Oh, shit.
	Oh, shit.
	Turn this off.
	Hey. Turn this off.
	how do i turn you off no turn it off
	Cut it.
	Cut it.
	Damn it, man.
	Unreal. It's a long one.
	Oh, geez.
	Holy shit.
	Alright, alright.
	I want you to go away.
	Go away.
	And don't slam the...door.
	It's a very good thing.
	Love that song.
	Yeah, and the point of bringing it up is because without putting attention on the problems, and not just this problem, but all societal problems, then the problems just persist and worsen.
	And so we are not targeting the Phoenix Police Department here.
	It's just that Phoenix happens to be the location of this story.
	But holy shit, you guys, just as of last year in March or May, I think your department, the Phoenix Police Department, was rated number one for being the police department that uses the deadliest force when encountering alleged suspects, no matter how much of a threat.
	Man, that's a hell of a statistic there.
	And this statistic comes from a nationally recognized organization called Mapping Police Violence.
	They compiled national records of deadly police force between 2013 and 2022.
	And this is fucked up.
	The city rated as number two for deadliest police force was San Antonio, Texas.
	Now, Phoenix had twice the number of deadly incidents than San Antonio, with Phoenix having 75 deaths per 1 million people and San Antonio having 42 per 1 million people.
	I checked the current populations and Phoenix has around 4.72 million people, while San Antonio has about 2.45 million people.
	Holy shit, dude.
	That is nuts.
	I'd think, like...
	Maybe New York would be up there, or like Los Angeles, or maybe Chicago, Detroit.
	I mean, I wouldn't have guessed that Phoenix was leading the charge, or even San Antonio coming in at number two.
	It's just like totally random.
	So there's a top ten list they put out with ABC 15 Arizona and New York.
	Guess where they fall in deadliest police intervention?
	Number six.
	Ten. Isn't that kind of weird?
	Yeah. I would have guessed somewhere along the lines with you on this one, but yeah, pretty crazy.
	And also, you named Los Angeles, and they are listed as number three.
	You said Chicago, and they are listed as number five.
	And you named Detroit.
	However, they are not on the top ten list.
	Oh, wow.
	Okay, that's surprising.
	But Arizona as a whole, the state itself is ranked fourth for the deadliest police encounters.
	And as we know, black people are killed about three times as often as white devils, and they account for almost double that of Hispanics.
	All of this information comes from mappingpoliceviolence.org and policeviolencereport.org.
	Anyone can go check that out.
	They are extremely detailed and all laid out pretty nicely, so it's easy to read and study.
	But here is something interesting I found.
	While black people are 2.9 times more likely to be killed by police officers than white people, and black people make up 68 deaths per 1 million, Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islanders make up 90 deaths per 1 million people in the United States.
	So why the fuck aren't we discussing that, mainstream media?
	Why the fuck hasn't that shit been brought up, as in ever?
	We're talking a nearly 30% increase of deaths caused by police officers than black people.
	And this is according to the previous sightings, as in Police Violence Report and mappingpoliceviolence.org.
	Scott? Have you ever heard, even once, how many Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islanders are killed by police officers in the United States?
	Actually, no.
	I have never heard it, not even once.
	And that's pretty eye-opening.
	Certainly tragic, but why is this not a more widely known thing?
	I mean, those numbers are, like, really high and really concerning.
	Yeah, there's gotta be a reason behind it, but why?
	Why would this be swept under the rug?
	And this isn't new, like, this is from 2013 until 2022.
	I mean, those numbers appear to have always been higher than Black people, so I'm just left with...
	Many questions on this.
	Yeah, that kind of pisses me off, to be honest.
	Well, I did a little digging, Scott.
	I located the website ncbi.nlm.nih.gov, which is a government website.
	That is the National Library of Medicine.
	They published an article titled Disaggregating Asian American and Pacific Islander Risk of Fatal Police Violence on December 10, 2022.
	In this article, they cite the very sightings I cited above in their article.
	And it is a very technical article.
	But the takeaway from it is that they validated everything.
	They literally used Mapping Police Violence and PoliceViolenceReport.org for their extremely detailed article and a lot of other stuff, of course.
	Dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of researchers, doctors, and scientists were part of that article.
	The only issue is the one we present.
	Yeah, I seriously don't get it.
	It's just like a really extreme issue.
	Yeah, they actually cite that as being a concern in their article, that the media fails to report on the issue.
	They don't go to the extent of pointing fingers and blaming, of course, but they make mention that there is a lack of media reports to help them in their research.
	Oh yeah, fair enough.
	But I have some more statistics on police violence and a couple more on Arizona specifically.
	Alright, yeah, I'd like to hear these, and I'm sure our listeners would like to be informed as well.
	So, in 2022, 1,194 people were killed by police, and since 2013, this 10-year study...
	There were always over 1,000 people killed each year.
	In 2013, there were about 1,085 people killed, and it's interesting because it's always in that range, between about 1,000 and about 1,300 people killed every year.
	But as a means of being murdered, of the 1,194 killed in 2022, 97% were shot, and others were ran over by police, or choked to death, or beat to death, or death by taser.
	Of all of the police officers involved in the murder of the 1,194 people, only nine were charged with a crime.
	That's about 1%.
	Whoa, man.
	So hold on.
	Let's do a little math here.
	You got 1,194 people killed by the cops.
	Let's assume that it took one cop to kill one person, right?
	So there were 1,194 cops directly involved.
	And I won't even add in the ones that are guilty by association or accomplices or that were just standing right there laughing.
	So out of the 1,194 cops, only nine of those were charged with a crime.
	That just doesn't seem right.
	Like just something has to be off there.
	Right. So out of all those cases, PoliceViolenceReport.org says that they were able to identify 307 officers involved with the killings of the citizens.
	And of those, 22 had shot or killed someone previously, and 8 of those officers were involved in multiple previous shootings.
	Oh, man.
	Now, this next fact is kind of alarming.
	Most of these killings began with police responding to a non-violent suspect or where no crime was even reported.
	Furthermore, 86 people were killed during a typical traffic stop for a minor traffic violation.
	Does that piss you off or what?
	Yeah. Maybe this will piss you off a little more.
	110 people were killed by police after they were called in to respond to a report of a person having erratic behavior or a mental health crisis.
	That to me is just so sad because I know, you know, just based on a few videos that I've seen, every now and then someone with mental issues gets a hold of a weapon and is threatening.
	But a lot of times...
	People are just scared because their mental health reactions are so extreme.
	And the answer is definitely not gunning them down.
	No. There's just like, there has to be another way.
	And they're trying.
	I don't know.
	I want to say they're trying.
	I hope that they're trying.
	I mean, I want to believe that they're trying.
	Maybe not Arizona, but I know some police forces are.
	So back to Arizona.
	From 2013 to 2021, there were 409 killings by police.
	That is 1.8 persons per 10,000 arrests.
	Now here you go.
	A fact on the lighter side.
	There were also 8,380 complaints made by civilians for police misconduct.
	And of those, only 6% were ruled in favor of the civilian.
	That's about 502.8 persons.
	Fucking ridiculous.
	I mean, 502.8 sounds like a larger amount than 6%, but that is still factually ridiculous.
	Bro, from 2010 to 2020, Arizona literally made $3.79 billion from fines and forfeitures.
	Unreal. And that is on top of the nearly $3 billion they already get in funding, which costs each resident about $420 each year.
	I know, dude.
	You have to think about it like this.
	How many do-good residents paid that department only to be killed by that very department?
	No shit, man.
	Killed with their own money.
	That's crazy.
	That's so fucked.
	Apparently, the chance of being killed by a cop in the United States is about 1 in 8,516, or a 0.01% chance.
	They say you are more likely to be struck by lightning, which is like 1 in 3,000, says National Geographic.
	I mean...
	I guess that kind of makes me sleep a little better at night, knowing that.
	Unless, of course, you take into account Gerard Schaefer or David Middleton or John Christie or David Gore or Marvin Erwin or Manuel Pardo or Anthony Soli or perhaps the worst of them all, Joseph D'Angelo.
	Yes, all United States police officers who were also active serial killers.
	And I omitted Christopher Dorner because he was more of a spree killer.
	True. I rescind what I said earlier.
	I read a little bit about Schaefer.
	Whoa! And D'Angelo was a true nightmare.
	The number of victims he had, how long he was able to get away with everything, until one of those ancestry DNA things got his ass caught.
	Now let's take a look at deaths that occurred while people were either being held in jail for various small offenses or those who had already been convicted of more serious crimes and who were already serving their sentences in Arizona.
	There were 164 deaths in jail between 2013 and 2019.
	That comes out to 13 people per 1,000.
	Of the 13,248 people incarcerated, that is two persons out of 1,000.
	And apparently 80% of those deaths while being held in jail were not even convicted of a crime yet.
	Whoa. But enough of the police brutality talk for now.
	That is not what this episode is really about.
	Although there are very clear elements of police misconduct and lack of professionalism and even the likelihood that police violence did take place during this crime.
	So let's just continue with the story.
	Now we have found ourselves in the actual interrogation room, a small, maybe 10 foot by 10 foot room.
	Inside this room is Detective Paul Dalton and accused murderer Ryan Waller.
	Paul Dalton had worked with the Phoenix Police Department until his retirement in 2019 after 29 years, with 20 of those being with the homicide unit.
	What I thought we would do here is just I'll read the detectives' questions and then read Ryan's answers and maybe we'll discuss it as we go through.
	So we decided against putting the actual audio into this episode because with or without a lot of editing, it would have just sounded weird.
	And without editing at all, it would have added another 40 minutes to this episode.
	Yep. Plus, we're trying not to use the whole interrogation audio clips in our episodes, but I mean, there will be times when we do do that.
	Like, I think we have one coming up, right?
	Where a kid does something, like to a family member.
	I don't want to give it away.
	But, yeah.
	All that to say, we'll do that sometimes.
	Yeah, every now and then we'll sprinkle in some interrogation audio clips.
	And yeah, I think we have something coming up like that.
	But after we go over the interrogation, we will tie it all together and figure out exactly what happened between December 23rd and December 25th, 2006, in a quiet suburb of Phoenix, Arizona.
	Okay, first of all, like I mentioned earlier, the police led Ryan to an interrogation room where they took photos of his feet and swabbed his feet.
	They took a total of 43 pictures, and as his father said, many of them being close-ups of the bullet holes in his face and head.
	After the photos and swabs, Detective Paul Dalton comes into a room, sits down, and begins asking questions, and that is where we begin now.
	At first, I'll just sort of explain what's going on and paraphrase a little bit, and just try to gather as much information as you can as we go through this, and hopefully it doesn't become too monotonous.
	I think it'll be fine.
	I mean, it's better than the actual audio clip if you think about it, here at least.
	First of all, Detective Paul Ryan...
	Paul Ryan.
	Paul Ryan on the scene.
	First of all...
	First of all, Detective Paul asks Ryan basic identifying information such as reading off his name and asking if it's him, then doing the same with his social security number.
	And to these, Ryan gives the affirmative.
	Moving on, Paul asks him if he knows why he is there, to which Ryan shakes his head, giving a no.
	Paul is then about to read Ryan his Miranda rights, but asks Ryan if he's familiar with his Miranda rights from watching cop shows and TV shows.
	Ryan first says no to this, but Paul questions him on that, at which point Ryan says yes.
	Paul then reads him his Miranda rights.
	He then asks what the highest level of school Ryan's completed, but Ryan says he doesn't know.
	And this raises Paul's eyebrows a bit, like the previous cop show question, and says, you don't know?
	Ryan then says eighth grade and says that he did graduate when asked.
	He's then asked if he has a GED, to which Ryan says he doesn't know.
	Paul asks what he doesn't know, and Ryan repeats that he doesn't know, but with a little more frustration.
	Then Ryan says he just wants to go home, with Paul saying, you're not going home right now, as he stares at Ryan.
	Paul again asks what grade Ryan completed, but Ryan responds by saying the letter D. Paul says, No, not the grade as in letter grade.
	I'm asking you if you graduated high school.
	And Ryan says, No.
	Again, it's reaffirmed by Ryan that he had only completed eighth grade.
	He then affirms that he can read and write when asked by Paul.
	But we know that he did graduate high school.
	It's at this point that Paul, it appears, seems to rethink his strategy as he takes a deep breath, sort of leans back and stretches his hands out, kind of like one of those old-timey showmen on stage doing some vaudeville show or something.
	Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls.
	Check out this juggling act that I've perfected over the years.
	Got these five pins here, and I'll send them all into the air.
	Here we go with one.
	Ha! Ha!
	And two is up there.
	Ha ha!
	Three! Oh!
	Oh! Whoa!
	Whoa! Whoa!
	Whoa! Whoa!
	Whoa! Look at these hands!
	Fucking ridiculous.
	They're ridiculous.
	Paul asks if he has a girlfriend, and Ryan replies with a very tired no.
	Asked if he knows a Heather, Ryan says yes.
	When asked what Heather's last name is, he responds, mm-hmm.
	The one that lives there right now?
	Paul says, I guess.
	I don't know.
	If her name is Heather, what is her last name?
	Ryan seems to think for a while, and he says he doesn't know what her last name is or what name she's trying to use.
	And this is something about a nickname, but he doesn't know.
	Then says a name that sounds like Cayman, and Paul asks if that starts with a C or a K, to which Ryan says K. Paul says, keep going, as if to spell it out, but Ryan says he doesn't know.
	Paul asks how old Heather is, and Ryan says she's either 16 or 17, which isn't true.
	She's 21. He asks more questions about Heather.
	At this point, there's no girlfriend connection.
	He says he knows her from school, from a business name.
	Paul is confused and asks if he meant a business class, and Ryan basically says yes.
	Okay, real quick here.
	Most of the time, Ryan isn't necessarily saying yes.
	He is saying mm-hmm, and instead of saying no, he makes mm-mm.
	And so I'm just going to use yes or no to make it easier.
	Paul then asks what happened to his face, but Ryan responds that he doesn't know.
	Paul tells Ryan that Ryan had told another cop that he had been hit by someone, but Ryan says he doesn't know.
	And after a brief period of silence, he responds that it might have been Heather.
	Paul asks why she would hit him, and Ryan responds, I don't know, it was an accident, I forgot why.
	He is then asked what was an accident, and Ryan responds, Heather's last name?
	Paul says, no, what was an accident?
	Wow, I mean, what the fuck is happening right now during this interview?
	Like, clearly, and it just sucks that that's how he responded.
	He says, oh, I think it was Heather, because that's a nail in the coffin as far as the police are concerned.
	They're just like, ah, see, he just said it was that girl who hit him, and he probably retaliated.
	So now they're even more convinced, even though this poor guy, he's so beat up and hurt that he's not responding correctly.
	Paul asks, what was an accident?
	Ryan responds, Heather hitting me.
	Paul asks what she hit him with, and he responds, her hand in the eye.
	Did you guys have an argument?
	Not really, no.
	Not really?
	No. Paul again asks what she hit him in the eye with.
	Ryan responds that it was an accident.
	He says she was helping Christina with her head.
	That comment caught Paul off guard and he confusedly asks what Ryan just said.
	Ryan becomes more frustrated and says she was helping Christina with her hair or something.
	I don't know.
	When asked who Christina is, Ryan responds that she's on the couch.
	This, of course, really...
	caught Paul off guard because he knew that it was Heather on the couch.
	He then asked Ryan, with a bit of confusion, it was Christina on the couch?
	Ryan remained silent until Paul asked him what Christina's last name is.
	Paul says, and Ryan says he doesn't know.
	Paul asks what Christina looks like, but Ryan says, as if he's really just trying to get this guy to understand that he really doesn't know anything, he says, I really don't know.
	And this whole time...
	Ryan is sitting in a chair, feet up on the chair.
	He's leaning back against a wall with his right arm resting his head up.
	And his left side is facing the camera, and you have a perfect view of his black eye and what appears to be a small injury on the side of his nose.
	And Paul's only sitting literally like three feet away from the guy.
	So Paul asks, You don't know?
	No, replies Ryan.
	And then he basically pleads with Paul, saying, I really don't know.
	What color of hair does she have?
	asks Paul.
	Brown. Is it long?
	It's average.
	How old is Christina?
	20 maybe.
	I don't know.
	Ryan sounds tired and very annoyed.
	When asked specifically about Alicia, Ryan's roommate, Ryan says no.
	Paul asks, you don't know Alicia?
	No. Paul is like, she lives at your house?
	Paul then asks if he knows a guy named Eric, and Ryan says yes.
	When asked about Eric's last name, Ryan grunts as he tries to think.
	He says, he's trying to pay me back.
	Green something.
	Paul asks, his last name is Green something?
	To this, Ryan remains quiet until Paul prompts him with a yes, and then Ryan says yes.
	Paul asks where Eric is right now, and Ryan says he doesn't know.
	He asks if he has Eric's phone number, but Ryan says that he really doesn't, and that he doesn't have one.
	Okay, do you have Heather's phone number?
	No. Paul then asks if Ryan has Christina's phone number, but again Ryan says no.
	You don't have anyone's phone number?
	asks Paul.
	No, says Ryan.
	Paul then bluntly but sympathetically asks Ryan, what happened last night?
	Ryan then says with irritation, I don't know.
	You don't know.
	I really don't.
	I just want to go to sleep and go to sleep.
	Ryan then gives a whimper.
	Paul asks, well, you remembered Heather hitting you in the eye, right?
	Ryan says, I don't remember after that, but I just went to go lay down and try to go to sleep.
	All right, says Paul, and there's a moment of silence.
	Ryan says, I don't know what anyone else is doing.
	I really don't.
	Paul asks who was in the house when he went to sleep, and Ryan says Christina and Heather.
	Christina and Heather, asks Paul.
	Yes, says Ryan.
	Paul then asks Ryan if it was Christina on the couch, but this time Ryan says Heather was on the couch.
	Paul says, Heather was on the couch?
	You just told me Christina was on the couch just a minute ago.
	Ryan then becomes irritated and says, I don't know, man.
	I really don't.
	I really don't.
	Paul asks, you just don't know?
	I really don't know, man.
	Or you just don't want to tell me?
	I really don't know, man.
	I really don't.
	I just want to go and go to sleep, man.
	And that's what Ryan sounds like, too.
	Like, with that tone of voice.
	Paul says, well, Ryan, you're not going to go anywhere.
	Paul then asks Ryan if he knows what happened at his house last night, and Ryan, of course, says no.
	Is that your house?
	Yes. Yours or your parents?
	Mine. You bought that house?
	Yes. Okay, says Paul.
	Then there is a very brief pause before Ryan then all of a sudden says, Why?
	What happened?
	Paul doesn't respond, and Ryan then asks, Hmm?
	Paul says, I don't know what happened.
	You're all beat up, right?
	So tell me what happened.
	I don't know.
	I just want to go to sleep, man.
	That's it, says Ryan.
	Paul then asks, Do you know what happened to your nose?
	There's a big chunk out of your nose.
	Ryan responds with a stern, I don't know.
	Did someone grab you?
	Were you fighting with somebody?
	Ryan says, No, I need to go.
	I need to go back to sleep, man.
	I'm just tired, man.
	That's it.
	I didn't even do anything.
	I just want to go to sleep.
	And Paul asks, Do you know what time this happened?
	Your eye.
	Like, one?
	Maybe earlier?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Do you know Eric's girlfriend?
	Yeah. What's her name?
	Heather. Eric's girlfriend is Heather.
	And Ryan sort of says yes.
	Okay, says Paul.
	Then he says, Alicia, the girl that lives in your house, do you know who she is?
	Ryan says yes.
	Then there's a small period of silence before he frustratingly says, yeah, what about her?
	Do you remember what time she came home last night?
	Not really.
	Why? I'm just asking, responds Paul.
	Ryan quickly says, I don't.
	I really don't.
	Paul tells Ryan that Alicia said that after she returned home last night, he already had a black eye when she got there.
	Ryan says yes.
	Paul asks if Ryan remembers letting her into the house, to which she says, I think so.
	Paul asks if Ryan's eye was already screwed up like that.
	And Ryan then says, it was later in the night after she got back at like two in the morning.
	I was already sleeping though.
	So she got back at two in the morning?
	asked Paul.
	Yeah, I don't know from where.
	Okay, says Paul.
	A period of silence follows.
	Do you usually keep your house that dark?
	He gets no answer, so he prompts Ryan with a yes.
	And then Ryan says yes.
	Paul then says Heather, but doesn't say anything else before Ryan says yes.
	Then Paul says, you're saying that's Eric's girlfriend.
	Ryan says no at the same time Paul says, or your girlfriend.
	Ryan then asks, Heather?
	Yeah, mine.
	Heather is your girlfriend, asks Paul, making it clear.
	Was Heather over last night?
	Yes. Yes.
	All right.
	Paul then asks, and Heather did this to you?
	As he points his finger at Ryan's face.
	Ryan asks him, what?
	Your eye, responds Paul.
	Ryan says no.
	Paul asks, okay, who did that to you?
	Ryan says, Alicia.
	Alicia did that to you now, says Paul.
	Yes, swear, not even lying, I swear, says Ryan.
	Okay, why would Alicia do this to you?
	Why? I have no idea.
	Were you mad at Alicia?
	No, I don't know why.
	I don't know why.
	She probably hit it on something.
	I don't know.
	She hit what on something, asks Paul.
	I don't know.
	I don't know, man.
	There is then a long period of silence as Paul stares at Ryan before Ryan again says, I don't know.
	I just want to go to sleep, man.
	That's it.
	It's at this point when Paul sort of changes his tone of voice and says, Hey, Ryan?
	And immediately Ryan is like, Huh, and looks at Paul, who then says, There's a dead girl in your living room.
	She's dead?
	Heather? I don't know, says Paul.
	I want to know what happened in your house last night.
	Ryan then says, the girl on the couch is dead?
	Paul says, I don't know.
	If she's on the couch, she's dead.
	And here's where we get a little more information from Ryan.
	He says, well, these people came over, Richie and his dad, with shooting arrows, bows, and darts.
	Do you know what I'm talking about?
	Paul says, yes.
	Ryan goes on.
	They hit me and her with those.
	That's it.
	And Heather wasn't there, and Eric wasn't there, and it was just me and Heather were there.
	You and Heather were there.
	And then what happened?
	That's it.
	Richie and his dad tried to break in through the back.
	Richie and his dad?
	Who's Richie?
	I don't know, replies Ryan.
	Well, you obviously know him.
	You know his name by Richie.
	He used to live there.
	Was he a roommate of yours?
	He used to be.
	And they hit you and they hit you.
	Yeah. Now, it's Richie that hit you, not Heather.
	No, Richie and his dad.
	Richie and his dad, they hit you.
	Yes. Why?
	Because they were trying to get their stuff.
	I don't know why.
	And they had some kind of bows and arrows?
	Yes. They each had two revolvers and they didn't have any shells.
	Paul says, Okay, you just said they had bows and arrows.
	Now they have revolvers.
	Ryan says, That's what I meant.
	They had revolvers.
	They had revolvers, says Paul.
	Yes. And then what happened?
	And then they shot you at those?
	They shot both of you?
	Yes. Where did they shoot you at?
	Ryan says, I got shot in the eye.
	You got shot in the eye?
	I think so.
	With a revolver, asked Paul in total disbelief.
	I don't know.
	Ryan becomes pretty irritated and sits up while placing his feet on the floor and says, Fuck!
	He then rests on his right arm, which rests on the back of the chair he is in, clearly agitated.
	Paul asks, Then what happened?
	Ryan then says, I don't know, as he turns toward Paul and rests his head down on his folded arms on the table.
	You don't know a lot, Ryan, says Paul.
	I don't, man.
	I really don't.
	Paul then bluntly asks Ryan if he shot Heather, to which Ryan, still with his head resting on his arms, simply says no.
	Paul then says, I heard you have a lot of guns in your house.
	To this, Ryan says no.
	No? No.
	Paul says, well, you know we're going to look.
	Yes, responds Ryan.
	Then Paul, as if he's tired of the games that Ryan is playing with him, says, Ryan, why don't you tell me what happened there?
	Because I really don't believe you.
	He then gets cut off by Ryan, who sits up and looks at Paul and says, I really don't know, man.
	I really don't.
	I don't know.
	I'll tell you anything.
	I swear.
	Well, I want you to tell me the truth.
	That's what I want from you, says Paul.
	Ryan then says, Richie and his dad came there and I don't know why.
	I don't know why.
	I don't know why.
	They put me in sleeping holes with the arrows and shit like I lived through that shit, that crap.
	Okay, they put you in a sleeping hold, asks Paul.
	Yeah. What is that?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I really don't.
	It is here that Ryan abruptly stands up and continues to say, I don't know, man.
	You're telling me they put you in a sleeping hold.
	What is a sleeping hold?
	Ryan then sits back down and says, I don't know.
	Well, explain it.
	I need to know.
	Explain that to me.
	What is a sleeping hold?
	Ryan says, I really don't know, man.
	I really don't.
	I really don't know.
	Okay, you're telling me you're all over the board here.
	Number one, you're saying bows and arrows.
	You're saying revolvers, and you're saying they shot you in the eye.
	And Paul continues, Okay, they shot you with a revolver in your eye.
	Yes, and that's it.
	Was it a baby gun?
	No, it was a real gun, man.
	It was just a revolver.
	Disbelieving this, Paul then says, If they shot you in the eye with a revolver, you wouldn't be talking to me right now.
	Ryan interrupts and asks, How do you know?
	Because most likely, you'd be dead.
	That's what I thought too, man.
	I really don't know, says Ryan.
	Okay, says Paul.
	Ryan continues, I really don't know, and I just want to go back to sleep and just try to go back to bed.
	You're not going to go back to bed, okay?
	That's not going to happen, says Paul.
	All right, but what happened, man?
	What do I got to do, man?
	Just tell me what I got to do.
	Ryan then puts his foot on the edge of the chair that Paul is sitting in.
	Paul says, get your feet off my chair, number one.
	Number two, what happened to Heather?
	I don't know, man.
	I really don't.
	You're now saying Richie and his dad shot Heather.
	Is that true?
	Yes. And they shot her with a revolver?
	Yes. And they did not use any guns?
	They came with those guns?
	Yes. They came through the where?
	They were breaking in?
	Through the back.
	Through the back.
	By your door?
	Or is there another door?
	Through the back door.
	Paul asks, through the back door?
	Is that off the kitchen?
	Yes. Paul appears to be pretty confused, then asked, and why would they come on Christmas Day?
	I don't know.
	I really don't know.
	I really don't know.
	Did they break in, or did you let them in?
	I let them in.
	And then what happened?
	And then they started shooting up the house.
	With the gun?
	Yes. Okay, and then what happened?
	That's it.
	What happened to Heather?
	Heather got shot.
	What did she get shot?
	Inside the face, once.
	She got shot inside the face.
	Yes. How close, how close were you to her when she got shot in the face?
	It was after I got shirt.
	That's what he said, shirt.
	It was after I got shirt, so I didn't even hear anything.
	So you got shot first?
	Yes. And what happened?
	Did you fall to the ground?
	Yeah, I was trying to get up and shit, and I couldn't.
	I don't know.
	Okay. And then she got shot.
	Yes. And what did you do?
	Nothing. Did you call 911?
	No. Did you see if she was alive?
	She was sleeping still, and that's it.
	I just let her sleep.
	Surprised by that statement, Paul then says, She got shot inside of the face, and you let her sleep?
	Yes. This does not make sense, Ryan, says Paul.
	I know.
	I didn't mean to, man.
	I'm sorry.
	I didn't know she was passing out.
	It's because I got shot wrong once, too, and I was gonna pass out.
	Okay, this is now, not before?
	I don't know.
	Incredulously, Paul asks, You're saying right now you've been shot?
	Yes. In the eye.
	Finally hoping that the detective would get it, Ryan exhaustively says, Yes.
	With a revolver, asks Paul.
	Yes. Alright.
	You saw Richie and his dad shoot her.
	I missed that.
	You missed...
	They shot you first.
	Okay. She's under the blanket.
	Heather is?
	I'm asking you, is she under a blanket?
	I don't know.
	Paul says, you're saying she's in the living room.
	Yes, she was.
	Okay, do you remember what time Richie and his dad come in?
	Like, two in the morning.
	No, you were here at two in the morning.
	I don't know exactly, man.
	I really don't know.
	You know Ashley?
	She's your roommate, right?
	No. She stays in the next room, next to you.
	No. No?
	Never did.
	Who is she again?
	His daughter, says Ryan.
	Whose daughter?
	Richie's dad's daughter, Paul says.
	Is Ashley?
	Yes, says Ryan.
	Richie's dad's daughter.
	Richie's dad's daughter is Ashley.
	Yes. Then Ryan says, man, I swear I don't know.
	I just want to go home and go to sleep, man.
	I don't know.
	Paul says, okay.
	She came home at 9.30 and you answered the door and you looked like that at 9.30 at Christmas Day.
	Ashley? Paul says, Ashley came home and you let her in.
	All right, I don't remember.
	I don't know.
	Again, Ryan puts his foot on the detective's chair and again, Detective Paul Dalton says, get your feet off my seat.
	Ryan says, I don't know, man.
	I don't know, man.
	Ryan, you need to start telling me the truth.
	Your story does not make sense.
	I'm trying, man.
	I don't know.
	Just ask me anything and I'll tell the truth.
	Just ask me.
	Well, I'm trying to and you're not even coming close to the truth.
	Go ahead.
	Ask me.
	What happened with you and Heather last night?
	Ryan is again resting his head on his folded arms on the table and he says, Her dad came and shot the house.
	And shot her?
	Yes. Her dad.
	Now, Richie is her dad.
	Yes. Or Richie is her brother.
	Yeah, her dad.
	Her dad shot her.
	Yes. All right.
	And then leaves?
	Yes. And what did you do?
	I tried to go back to sleep.
	After you've been shot.
	Yes. In the eye.
	Yes. You didn't know enough to call 911?
	No. Why didn't you call 911?
	Because I was just trying to go to sleep.
	That's it.
	You just saw Richie and his dad shoot your girlfriend and you just felt like you needed to go to sleep.
	Something like that, man.
	I don't know.
	I really don't.
	Ryan's head is still resting on his arms as Paul tells him to look at him.
	Ryan lifts his head and says, Yes?
	I don't know, man.
	I really don't know.
	Ryan, why did you shoot Heather, Ryan?
	I didn't shoot Heather.
	She was already shot once by her brother, I swear.
	Richie? Yes.
	Richie shot his own sister.
	Yes, I swear that's it.
	Ryan then stands up again and says, Not me.
	Paul tells Ryan to sit down, which he does.
	And you've been shot in the eye.
	Yes, that's it.
	Ryan then sits himself back in his chair and puts his feet up on the table.
	Paul tells him to get his feet off the table.
	But he keeps his feet there.
	And he says, my feet hurt.
	I don't know why.
	Paul doesn't care and tells him to get his feet off the table, which at this point Ryan does.
	Paul reaches out to Ryan with his right hand and asks to see his nose.
	Ryan is confused and puts his feet back on the table and leans back, away from Paul.
	And Paul says to put his legs down and try to lean forward so he can see Ryan's face.
	Paul is moving Ryan's head around as if he's looking at the injuries on his face.
	And as he's doing this, Ryan says that his head really hurts.
	And Paul looks for a few more seconds, then looks down at his paperwork, then stands up, and you can see a look on his face.
	He's very confused and pretty shocked, actually.
	And he tells Ryan that he'll be right back, and then he leaves the room.
	Ryan puts his head back down on his right arm, which rests on the table.
	And about two and a half minutes later, Paul comes back in and says, Hey, Ryan, I've got the fire department coming in to take a look at you.
	They're probably going to take you to the hospital.
	Ryan is confused and asks, You're taking me to a hospital?
	Why? Well, if you've seen your face and the way you're doing things just doesn't make sense right now, okay?
	We're just gonna make sure you're okay.
	Paul then takes the handcuffs off of Ryan.
	Ryan says, I just want to go to bed, man.
	Well, that's the problem, says Paul.
	If you have some kind of head injury, you shouldn't be sitting here, okay?
	At that point, Ryan stands up to leave, but Paul advises him to just sit back down.
	Okay. We're just going to wait for the fire department here.
	So, who is Richie and his dad?
	Ryan puts his left foot up on the table again, and Paul tells him to put it down, which he does not.
	What is Richie's last name?
	I don't even know.
	Ryan looks over at Paul, who looks back at him.
	Paul asks, You don't remember where you got shot?
	No, I think I only got shot once in the eyeball.
	And then you just wanted to go to sleep?
	Yes. Paul then says, Okay.
	And stands to shut the door behind him and sits back down.
	Did you go back to bed after the shooting?
	Yes. Then there's a long period of silence as they both sit there.
	Did you and Heather have a relationship?
	Not after the shooting, no.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Not after the shooting.
	Before the shooting.
	There's again a period of silence as they look at each other until Ryan says, Mm-hmm.
	But it seems like he isn't really sure about his answer.
	Paul just looks at Ryan.
	Then Ryan says, Yes.
	Okay, so she was your girlfriend.
	Kind of.
	Not really, he replies.
	And did...
	Why did Richie and her dad shoot you and then shoot her?
	It doesn't make sense.
	They came in shooting at everybody.
	I don't know why.
	I really don't know why.
	I really don't know why.
	Okay, and it's Heather's brother, Richie.
	This time Ryan says no.
	You said it was.
	It was Heather's dad.
	Is it Heather's dad or is it just Richie and his dad?
	Richie and his dad.
	Nothing to do with Heather.
	Okay, Heather is not related to Richie or the dad.
	No. When did Richie live with you?
	I don't know, like a week, man.
	When? When?
	I don't know.
	Like a week ago?
	Two weeks ago?
	A month ago?
	Maybe, says Ryan.
	Okay. We're going to get the fire department to come in and take a look at you.
	They're probably going to take you to the hospital, okay?
	After Paul says that, Ryan doesn't respond, but just stares at Paul.
	At which point, Paul asks him if he understands what he's saying to him.
	Ryan responds, yes.
	Okay, they're going to take care of you.
	It's at that point, Paul gets up to leave the room and tells Ryan just to stay where he is.
	Ryan sits in the chair with his feet up on the table, and he's either staring at paperwork on the table or he has his eyes closed as he tries to sleep.
	It's hard to tell with the black eyes.
	After a while, he looks around.
	He looks toward the door, then closes his eyes for a while, then opens them up.
	When Detective Paul Dalton comes back in and says, just give us a couple minutes, okay?
	Ryan responds by saying, I just want to go to sleep, man.
	Paul says, I don't want you to go to sleep, okay?
	Then he walks out and closes the door again.
	After about 54 minutes of the interrogation, the paramedics arrive, and as they come in, Detective Paul tells him that they aren't going to believe this one, and that he can't believe it either.
	And one of the paramedics says, you're right, I've already heard the story, and I can't believe it.
	Detective Paul comes back into view and stands next to Ryan and says, while pointing at Ryan's wounds on his face, this is just my observation, is that this might be an entrance, this might be an exit, and this might be into his eye, and he's acting like he has a serious head injury,
	which would make sense.
	So Paul then moves away and allows the paramedics to look.
	One of them asks him his name, and he says, Ryan.
	You can hear another paramedic say, yeah, we'll take him.
	And he sounds rather concerned.
	The lead paramedic asks him how long it's been like that, and Ryan says, a day or so?
	They then stand there looking at him for a while, and then the paramedic asks, so it happened what, the other night?
	Ryan says, I don't know.
	You don't know what happened?
	asks the paramedic.
	They continue standing there looking at him, and at this point, no one has actually taken a close look at his face.
	The paramedic asks him if there were guns around.
	Ryan says, This kid Eric did it.
	I don't know how he did it exactly.
	I might have been shot.
	I don't know.
	I really don't know.
	It's at that point that the paramedics finally go up to take a look at his face.
	As they do, Ryan says, I don't know.
	It hurts really bad.
	One of the paramedics then says to the other paramedics, It looks like it went right through, huh?
	And Ryan says, Yeah, it might have.
	I don't know.
	And at the same time, one of the paramedics gives a chuckle to Ryan's response.
	At that point, they check his vitals.
	They put the arm cuff on him and get his blood pressure.
	While they do that, they ask him more questions.
	They ask him where he's from, and he says he was born in Michigan, but he says he's from here, as in from Phoenix.
	They ask him if he has in-laws in from Christmas, and he shakes his head no.
	Ryan then says, I think it's done, alluding to the arm cuff.
	They take it off.
	They read his pressure as 124 over 70, which is relatively normal pressure.
	They then tell him his ride is here, at which point Ryan Waller stands up and walks out of the door.
	As they are walking out, Ryan asks where they are going.
	A paramedic responds with amazement and says, We've got to get you to the hospital.
	You've checked out, bro.
	You look like you've been shot right in the face.
	Ryan says, I don't even know.
	That is where the interrogation footage ends.
	And from start to finish, it was about 57 minutes, with about the first 20 minutes being swabs and photographs.
	Alright, so what happened to Ryan Waller?
	First, we need to set the scene of the living situation at the house.
	Before Ryan had moved into the house, a guy named Eric had lived there.
	Eric had also lived there with another guy named Richie Carver.
	Richie Carver was not a good friend and certainly not a good roommate.
	For whatever it was, Eric would eventually kick Richie out of the house.
	Apparently he left without issue, but was holding onto some grudges.
	Later on, he would say that Eric had pistol-whipped him, and that would later be one of the reasons Richie and his dad, Larry Carver, would tell Richie's mom, or Larry's ex-wife at the time, why they were going over to the house in the first place.
	According to court documents and Richie's statements, Eric had pistol-whipped Richie one day when Richie was lurking around the property.
	You see, one dry, balmy day, Richie was over at the house and was walking around near the backyard.
	Eric saw him back there and certainly didn't trust him for many reasons.
	And one of those reasons he felt that Richie was staking out the house to rob it.
	When Ryan Waller was moving in after Richie had been kicked out, Richie had seen Ryan bringing in electronics such as a laptop and whatever else and a few guitars and other items that were worth, you know, a decent value.
	So on the day that Eric saw Richie staking the house out in the backyard, he grabbed himself a gun to protect himself and his property.
	But there was no incident of a pistol whipping.
	The fabricated pistol whipping was only used by Richie and his dad as a justifiable excuse to go over to the house to rob it.
	But before we get to that point, once Ryan had moved in and things were going pretty chill, Eric would move out and Alicia would move in.
	And not long after that, Heather would move in.
	It's generally understood by those most familiar with this case that Ryan and Richie did not know each other at all.
	But there are others who say that they had met on a handful of occasions, not officially, But when Richie would come over randomly to pick things up after getting kicked out.
	The fact is, though, that Ryan did not know who Richie was.
	At least, he knew Richie as Richie, but he didn't know him personally.
	Now we can move to December 23rd, 2006.
	Obviously, in the days or weeks, if not months prior to this day, Richie and his dad had been planning to rob the house.
	They waited until this day, between 8 and 9 p.m., to go over and carry out their robbery.
	Side note.
	There are discrepancies with the dates that this crime occurred.
	The official story says it took place on the 23rd, but the Waller family and many others think it took place on Christmas Day.
	But more on that in a little bit.
	When they arrived, they went to the back door.
	And as I mentioned earlier, there are actually two back doors right next to each other.
	One being a sliding glass door to the kitchen, the other being a door to Ryan's bedroom.
	They went to Ryan's door.
	And as they were trying to get into it...
	Ryan had heard the sounds, so he walked over to the door to open it and see what the noise was.
	Upon opening it, he saw a very brief vision of Richie and his dad, and a handgun being pointed at his face, and then he was shot.
	Ryan was shot through the tip of his nose, just off to the right side.
	The bullet exited out through the left side of the bridge of his nose, and then went into his left eye.
	This also shattered the orbital bone, which sent six pieces of bone fragment with the bullet spread into his brain.
	Oh my gosh, that's so crazy.
	Immediately after being shot, he of course fell to the floor.
	That is when Richie or his dad shot him again in the side of the head, just above his left ear.
	This bullet didn't do a whole lot of damage, but it did break a piece of his skull off.
	The bullet itself did not enter his head.
	Altogether... Ryan had a total of four bullet wounds in his face and his head.
	And that information came straight from his dad on a Reddit post.
	After shooting Ryan and expecting him to be dead, they went to the living room where they had spotted Heather on the couch.
	She was trying to take a nap but was obviously awoken by the terrible noise.
	Either Richie or Larry shot her in the head where it is thought that she died instantly.
	Man, that's so sad.
	So sad.
	The two double murderers then began robbing the place of various items, including Ryan's guitars and a laptop, and this property would never be located.
	When the two were finished with their senseless crime, they fled the scene.
	They would return to their house where Cheryl, Richie's mother, was.
	Cheryl would later say that immediately upon them returning, Larry told her, I've just fucked up, I've killed two people, and I have to get out of here.
	Right after Larry made that omission, he would take off to California with a.22 caliber murder weapon.
	Richie, on the other hand, would stay in Phoenix.
	Of course, it wouldn't take long for the police to track down both Richie and Larry Carver.
	Well, kind of.
	You see, despite Ryan telling Detective Paul Dalton exactly who shot both he and Heather, the Phoenix police did not immediately go searching for the two suspects.
	In fact, during the 35 days that Ryan was in the hospital, not a single officer went to make a visit to either see how he was doing or with any follow-up questions.
	It wouldn't be until four days after Ryan was back home that Richie Carver was finally arrested.
	Unfortunately, the case against Larry Carver would be dismissed due to the only evidence they had against him was an alleged confession that he apparently made to Cheryl, his wife, and his wife couldn't be forced to testify against him under the protection of spousal testimonial privilege.
	Richie Carver, though, would be convicted of felony murder, burglary, aggravated assault, He would actually make a confession and was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole back in June of 2008.
	But there's an interesting twist in the case, a real turn of events.
	Back in 2011, a new trial would be set for Larry Carver.
	You see, there would be a three-year court proceeding beginning in 2008, which was carried out by Heather Kwan's family.
	The legislature did change that law, and now the spousal privilege is revoked when a spouse voluntarily provides any information about criminal activities to their spouse.
	It is called Heather's Law.
	So now, Cheryl was to testify against her husband, and Larry Carver was re-indicted and charged with aggravated assault, burglary, Well,
	it's interesting that the legislature was compelled to rewrite their original law.
	That's been a law for a long time in a lot of states.
	But in this case, I'm glad that it...
	Allowed him to be brought to justice.
	I mean, just senselessly going in there over some, just some bullshit.
	Complete bullshit.
	Killing two people.
	Yeah, killing two people.
	It just, yeah.
	It just makes me really sad.
	I hate it.
	I hate the whole thing.
	The spousal, that law that was changed, it's really interesting that, like, part of that law, it makes sense.
	At the same time, it's like, bro, like, you're hiding a crime, you know?
	Yeah, he would think that the spouse would just want to come forward anyways.
	Well, and that's part of why this happened, too, is because the mom, her son just went to prison for life.
	Right. And apparently she didn't believe he's the one that did it.
	She thought that her ex-husband did it.
	Probably goaded him into doing it.
	He took the fall, and so she was like, you know what?
	I've had it with this.
	You're both going.
	If he's going, you're going.
	Exactly. That was her thought.
	You put my son in prison for life, and you're the one that did this.
	And you're walking around free.
	Right. And they didn't have the best relationship anyway, so she felt compelled.
	Like, alright, fuck that.
	My son is in prison for life.
	You did this.
	I'm going to testify against you.
	Yeah. And I'm glad she did.
	I'm glad he went.
	Yeah, for sure.
	Oh, wow.
	Geez. Oh my gosh.
	But the Wallers had their own experts saying otherwise.
	And unfortunately, they would never have a chance to talk.
	Part of this was due to the fact that the city attorneys had made it clear that if the Waller family had lost the lawsuit, That they would have to pay for the prosecution's legal cost,
	which would have been well into the millions of dollars.
	The Waller family decided that it would be the best option for them not to pursue the lawsuit any further just in case they lost, and they just moved on with their lives.
	Oh, that's terrible.
	And of course, the family highly suspects the Phoenix Police Department and the city attorneys of being corrupt.
	There is no doubt that if they were able to present their case to a jury of their peers that they would have won the case.
	They had to.
	Absolutely. All the evidence was there.
	There's just no way they wouldn't have.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Then there is Detective Paul Dalton.
	There is a ton of speculation about this guy and certainly about how he handled the case, or to say it better, mishandled the case.
	He is accused of tampering with evidence and trying to create a certain narrative that would have put him in a better light in regards to how he handled the interrogation and subsequent investigation of the entire case.
	And during a deposition given to Detective Dalton, nearly everything he said was a fabrication or a lie.
	But internal departments in charge of the investigation, overseeing everything, they did nothing to help find the truth.
	All swept under the rug.
	And here's an interesting bit about something Detective Dalton said to the paramedics as they were leaving the police station with Ryan.
	Dalton said that he didn't believe Ryan was actually shot.
	And when asked by an attorney about that conversation, Dalton said that even the paramedics didn't believe that he was shot.
	But this, we know, is a lie, because in the interrogation video, you can clearly hear one paramedic distinctly say to Ryan when Ryan asked why they were going to the hospital that he had been shot in the face.
	That was literally the last thing heard in the video.
	And there is word that the Phoenix Police Department is still under investigation by the Department of Justice to this day.
	Due to how they mishandled the case, but I couldn't verify that.
	And then there's the issue with the dates that this crime allegedly took place.
	You know, it's generally understood that the attack took place on the 23rd of December, but upon a close review of the entire case, it is highly speculated and believed that the shooting actually took place on the 25th of December.
	Part of this belief is due to the injuries on Ryan's face.
	They didn't appear to be two days old.
	They appeared to be from the night before the interrogation, which would have been the 25th.
	Plus, there's no sign of healing, such as scabbing around the wounds or new development of new skin.
	And even his roommate, Alicia, would say that she believed that the shooting would have to have taken place on the 25th.
	And the Waller family also believes it took place on the 25th.
	And there's even talk that Heather and Ryan ordered a pizza, which was delivered on the 25th.
	I could not verify that, but it's what his dad, Don Waller, had mentioned in an interview that is on YouTube.
	Man. I mean, first of all, I'd like to also say that Alicia, it's crazy that she didn't have more of a legal part to play in all this because she just comes home, ignores Heather on the couch who's been shot, goes to her room,
	right? Because didn't she arrive after this had all gone down?
	Yeah, yeah.
	She came back because the shooting took place.
	Ryan's parents went to the house on Christmas Day.
	They couldn't get in contact with him.
	The cops said, we'll call you back, so they left to go to a coffee shop.
	Right, right.
	When they left, Alicia came home, went inside, didn't notice anything wrong.
	Yeah. No off smell of gunpowder or anything.
	No weird smell.
	That's crazy to me.
	That is just insane to me.
	And what's interesting, though, like I mentioned, apparently she felt that they were both there, so she had to have seen a person on the couch thinking Heather was just sleeping there or something.
	Or maybe she heard Ryan like shuffling around in his bedroom or something.
	Right. In like a weird brain-dead comatose type of thing, just like moving things around or whatever.
	Maybe. Yeah.
	And she just figured, well, he's up and moving, so he must be fine.
	Right. And they'll answer the door because the cops are knocking.
	So why do we have the date of the 23rd?
	Well, this comes full circle back to Detective Dalton.
	In subsequent interviews given to Cheryl, Rich's mom, Detective Dalton was in charge of those.
	He had designed his own theory on what happened, and the date of the 23rd was when he thought the shooting happened.
	Why is that significant?
	Because it shows how Detective Dalton was involved in manipulating the facts of the case as he saw fit.
	And it's not the first time he has been accused of manipulating facts in other cases.
	I won't get into those allegations, but I will say that this is definitely not the first time that he has been accused of lying and manipulating facts.
	But why would he manipulate the facts in this case?
	Well, probably because he had made some mistakes and he just wanted to cover those up.
	So it was highly likely that the shooting did in fact take place on Christmas Day, not two days prior.
	But let's continue.
	While Ryan Waller would survive the horrific attack, he would lose his left eye and he would suffer from severe seizures for the rest of his life.
	Because of the delay in medical intervention, he would suffer from an infection in his brain, which prevented the removal of the bullet.
	A further injury to Ryan, as reported on by that website I said earlier, okbliss.com, was a broken jaw caused by being tainted.
	Geez. Geez.
	Geez. The police actually punched him in the face during the arrest.
	I believe it.
	Me too, man.
	That's just so unreal.
	I mean, I feel like they just showed up and they were like, this guy's the criminal.
	Yeah, that's how I feel.
	The police, on the other hand, say they didn't tackle or punch Ryan.
	They said they just used pressure points.
	So you can make of that what you will, but the fact of the matter is that Ryan did have a broken jaw.
	How did he get a broken jaw?
	Who knows?
	It's important to note here that all suspects are supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
	In the case of Ryan, he was immediately presumed guilty and treated as such.
	He was never brought to the hospital until the very end.
	I mention this because when Larry Carver was tracked down in California, the police used attack dogs on him when he attempted to run.
	He sustained injuries from the attack dogs, and he was promptly brought to the hospital for treatment.
	Now, sure, not all police departments have the same protocol, but the law as it pertains to suspects involved in crimes, it's static.
	It never changes.
	All suspects are to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
	And while suspected double murderer Larry Carver was immediately medically treated for his wounds, Ryan Waller was not.
	And we have to ask the question, why?
	His family would later say that Ryan was like someone with Alzheimer's.
	He would tell you the same story over and over again, or he asked the same question over and over again.
	And he had the worst seizures that you could even imagine.
	Ryan would also suffer secondary injuries as a result of those seizures.
	During one such seizure, he bit off the whole side of his tongue.
	During another, he broke an ankle.
	Poor guy.
	Poor guy.
	and would later die from his injuries on January 10, 2016.
	16.
	Man, that is...
	Rough, bro.
	The poor guy just had the shittiest luck.
	Not luck, I would say, but just, you know, things just didn't go well for him, and his end is, like, just tragic.
	I mean, his girlfriend was shot and killed, and he had lasting brain damage, lost his eye, his parents didn't get any money, and it just sort of faded into lore, you know?
	And he was said to be one of the nicest dudes, too.
	Like, he was squeaky clean, man.
	He was just a genuinely nice human being, you know what I mean?
	Yeah. Well, unfortunately, he picked bad associates, which isn't his fault, but...
	Well, I mean, no.
	He just moved into a house that was open for rent.
	Like, he had a place to live.
	He was like, I'm gonna move in.
	He didn't know who this Richie guy was.
	Totally. You know?
	He wasn't suspecting that this Richie guy would break into the house and rob them and kill them.
	And shoot them.
	No, no, there's no way.
	That's just, like, so unlikely.
	It's just sad, bro.
	It's tragic.
	And, you know, this isn't an isolated incident, but this is one that we're just covering.
	And I know we started out talking about police brutality, and there were definitely some police failings, but the rest of the failings in this case, you know, just how everything worked out for them, it's just as tragic.
	You know, police notwithstanding.
	Yeah, right.
	Yeah, you know...
	When I was looking at the wound on his nose and how his dad was saying there was no healing on it, you know, it's a very fresh wound, less than 24 hours, I just thought, you know, it's really interesting how we can regenerate some of our wounds, you know?
	Yeah, we can't, like, grow back a toe or a finger or something.
	Like, some wizards can grow back their tail, you know, or the axolotl, you know, the huge salamander in Mexico, which is basically, well, what they call it, a walking fish, but it can regenerate.
	Entire limbs.
	You know, its entire tail.
	Even its backbone, I guess, is what I read.
	Yeah, and I don't know if you know this, but the planarian can also regrow its entire body from just a tiny fragment of itself.
	What the hell is a planarian?
	It's a freshwater flatworm.
	Oh, alright.
	And also the hydra, I believe, while we're on the subject of things that can regrow, can do the same.
	And the hydra is a small invertebrate freshwater animal that can completely replicate itself if cut in half, like an amoeba.
	Dude, I have a story about amoebas.
	Well, hell yeah, bro.
	Let's hear it.
	Uh, fuck, I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Maybe we should save it for a Florida Man show.
	Nah, let's hear it, and then we can close this out.
	Alright, man.
	Well, it's kind of your fault for bringing up amoebas anyway.
	So, in Charlotte County, Florida, a man...
	Oh, yeah, like Navage, or I guess they're called like nasal irrigators.
	Interesting. Nasal irrigators.
	Yeah, sure, why not?
	Anyway, he was doing that with just your regular tap water.
	What should be fine, right?
	Or do they advise against that?
	They actually advise against that because it's not adequately filtered or treated.
	So there's still quite a bit of bacteria, protozoa, and even amoebas in our tap water.
	It's where they live.
	That's their environment, you know.
	But it's safe to use if you boil the water for a good 10 minutes or so and you kill all that stuff first.
	Alright, okay.
	Well, this guy didn't do that, apparently.
	And interestingly, the type of amoeba that got into his brain would only be able to do so if the contaminated water went through the nasal cavity instead of being swallowed.
	Oh, man.
	What are the odds of that?
	I know, man.
	And this being because the stomach acid would very likely kill the amoeba.
	Not all the time, but usually it does.
	Yeah, sure, sure.
	And the kind of amoeba that did this horrific crime is called the Niglaria fowleri.
	It is more commonly referred to as the brain-eating amoeba.
	And the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
	Ah, yes.
	They say that about three people die each year in the United States.
	And between 1962 and 2021, get this, only four out of 154 people who were infected with the amoeba would survive.
	That shit is no joke.
	Whoa, that's insane.
	Deadly fucking amoeba, bro.
	Absolutely. I guess in 2020, there was a boy who got it while swimming in Lake Mead.
	And there was a kid in Nebraska who got it while swimming in the Elkhorn River in 2022.
	And there was a Missouri resident who went swimming at Lake of Three Fires State Park in Iowa.
	And there was a North Texas child who got it while at a public splash pad in 2021.
	And there was a six-year-old Lake Jackson, Texas boy who got it at a splash pad as well.
	I'm not sure if it was the same splash pad, but I'm guessing it was not.
	And there was a 10-year-old Texas girl who got it in 2019 while swimming in the Brezos River and Lake Whitney, which is close to Waco, Texas, the famed homeland of the Branch Davidians and the horrible massacre that took place at the hands of the FBI and the ATF and mostly Janarino.
	Anyway, symptoms of the deadly brain-eating amoeba are initially very severe headaches, then nausea, a fever, and vomiting.
	This will progress to stiff and sore muscles, and then seizures and hallucinations, and then coma, and eventually death unless you are one of the very few who survives.
	The Branch Davidians?
	Should we, you know, should we do one on that?
	I mean, it's pretty iconic.
	I think we will eventually do it.
	Maybe years down the road, who knows?
	But I'm sure we'll end up doing it at some point.
	Yeah, for sure.
	Well, is that it?
	Um, yeah, yeah, that's it.
	Thank you, everyone, for tuning in once again.
	We appreciate all your support.
	Please email us at paranatica at gmail.com.
	Send us a message.
	Let us know what stories you want to hear and stories you want us to cover.
	Yes, and corrections.
	We are always learning here, and we make mistakes.
	We are not the final word.
	So, you know, help us out.
	And you can also follow us over there at Twitter, at Paranatica.
	What else?
	India, I'm waiting for that challenge.
	These fingertips are like little Rottweilers, little German shepherds, just ready to attack.
	Be aware, India.
	This guy's coming for ya.
	I'm a real chessman.
	Alright, everyone.
	Thank you all, and until next week, walk up to a stranger and give them a hug.
	Uh, I don't know, man.
	They might get shot or stabbed or something.
	Times are different.
	That's true.
	Forget what I just said.
	Instead, tell all of your friends to listen to the Paranautical Podcast.
	I mean, mass text.
	Thanks everyone.
	Thanks everyone.

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