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Dec. 19, 2021 - Praying Medic

03:00:32

197V Supernatural Saturday With Brian Fenimore - Healing Ministry

Brian Fenimore and I discuss the New Testament model of healing. Plumbline Ministry: http://plumblinem.com/home/

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	There we are!
	Alright, we're live.
	Hey baby, are you watching?
	Alright, cool.
	Hey everybody!
	I'm Praying Medic.
	It is a special edition of Supernatural Saturday.
	We have a special guest on our show today.
	My special guest is Brian Fenimore.
	Brian is a Kingdom teacher who has been operating and teaching in the Supernatural for, I don't know, decades.
	20 or 30 years maybe.
	I caught up with Brian Started following him back in 2010-ish, when I started getting interested in healing, because the Lord challenged me to start praying for my patients.
	So Brian, why don't you say hi to everybody?
	I'm going to do a little intro to myself real quick.
	For those of you who don't know me, I was just an average guy at the age of 38.
	Working as a paramedic.
	My vision for my future was I'm going to keep working as a paramedic until I'm 65, go on Medicare and Social Security and that's going to be that.
	I really didn't have a big plan for my future and in the year 2000, God changed that.
	I had an overnight, very dramatic, road to Damascus type conversion.
	I was mocking Christians one day I met Jesus in the bunk room of a fire station that night and the next day I was out telling everybody I knew about Jesus and how he changed me.
	Alright, so I went to a church, kind of a mainline Protestant church, taught the Bible.
	I learned the Bible really well for the first seven years or so that I was a Christian.
	I didn't learn really anything about the Holy Spirit.
	I really didn't have much of a relationship with the Holy Spirit.
	In 2008, everything changed.
	Denise went to a dream interpretation workshop.
	She was learning about dreams.
	She came home and prayed over me that night to have dreams.
	I hadn't had a dream in 25 years.
	That night, I met God in a dream.
	And he told me, I want you to start praying for your patients, and when you do, I will heal them.
	Now, the church I was attending at the time was a cessationist church.
	They didn't believe in Healing, didn't believe in miracles, didn't believe in the gifts of the Spirit.
	So, here was God telling me that my understanding of Him was wrong.
	Right?
	I was like, wait a minute!
	Wait a minute!
	I don't even believe in this stuff!
	How am I supposed to get people healed?
	You're going to heal them?
	How does this work?
	I had no understanding of any of this.
	It took me probably eight months of trying and failing of learning, watching videos, reading some books.
	I finally found John Wimber's book, Power Healing, which was a big help for me.
	Brian's smiling because Brian, I think, was was mentored by Wimber, if I'm not mistaken.
	Yeah.
	So what I would say is this.
	That's...
	The lesson I'd like you to consider is that if you're walking in a relationship With the Holy Spirit, He is going to challenge what you believe to be true.
	He's going to challenge what you believe about God.
	He's going to challenge what you believe about yourself.
	He's going to challenge your understanding of your calling, your ministry, your relationships.
	He will challenge you in a lot of areas.
	And He has been continually challenging me for 10 years.
	And He continues to do that.
	You know, like I said, I was going to be a paramedic, and next thing you know, God tells me I have to go heal people.
	In the ambulance!
	I'm like, is that even legal?
	Can you do that?
	Am I gonna get fired?
	I mean, I didn't know any of this stuff, right?
	So, I started praying for people.
	I prayed for 500 people, you know.
	I started doing it in grocery stores, hardware stores, restaurants.
	Nobody got healed.
	Didn't see anyone healed.
	I'd go home.
	I would be tired.
	I'm done.
	I give up.
	I quit.
	I did my part.
	No one's getting healed.
	I'd have a dream that night.
	I'd be in the ambulance praying for someone and they got healed in the dream.
	And I was like, okay, I guess I'm not getting out of this.
	So I continued to pursue this thing with healing and I kept praying for people and no one was getting healed.
	And then one day I went into a grocery store and there was a woman standing in front of me at the counter and she was getting a bottle of Tylenol and a donut.
	And I don't even know why I just closed my eyes.
	And I saw a vision, this little picture in my mind, right?
	So when Brian and I, when we talk about seeing visions, OK, the Holy Spirit will show you things.
	He'll give you revelation, words of knowledge and words of wisdom.
	And it comes through these images you see in your mind.
	A lot of people think of visions as some weird, spooky thing.
	They're not.
	It's just a little picture that God gives you in your mind.
	And I saw this picture of this woman who was standing in front of me.
	And I saw the word headaches underneath it.
	And I was like, Oh, I think I got a word of knowledge.
	So I followed her.
	She was an employee in the store.
	Followed her over to the deli where she was working.
	And I said, Hey, do you have headaches?
	And she said, Yeah, I have migraines.
	They're really bad.
	Who are you?
	And I said, I'm the guy that God sent to heal you.
	And if you let me pray for you, you're going to be healed.
	And I put my hand on her head and I commanded the headaches to leave.
	And she started bawling because she got healed.
	She had a headache at the time.
	That's why she was buying the bottle of Advil.
	Her headache completely gone.
	I stayed in touch with her for about eight months and her headaches, her migraines never came back.
	Okay.
	So one of the things I just want to say real quickly, and Brian has, I think has the same kind of testimony.
	When you start out in healing, Don't go for cancer.
	Don't go for Lou Gehrig's disease.
	Go easy on yourself.
	Go for something that's a little bit, a little easier.
	Headaches generally are not that difficult to get rid of.
	A lot of people who don't even have great faith for healing can get headaches healed.
	It's not rocket science.
	And so that was a victory.
	I got the first person I had prayed for that I actually saw them healed and then I went on a couple of ambulance transports in the next couple of days, saw two more people healed.
	One woman had scoliosis and a torn meniscus in her knee.
	She got healed of both of those.
	And then another little old lady had broken bones in her foot and she got healed of those.
	And all of a sudden I was like, okay, wait a minute.
	I've been praying for hundreds of people.
	No one was healed.
	And all of a sudden something changed.
	My faith started to change.
	Now, the reason I said that is, um, I just wanted to give you guys a little bit of my testimony of where I started at.
	And I'm now, you know, 11, 12 years down the road and things have changed.
	And the very first message Jesus preached was, repent for the kingdom of God, kingdom of heaven is at hand.
	The Greek word for repent is metanoia.
	It means change your mind, change your way of thinking.
	Change your way of thinking because the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
	And like I said, if you're hearing the Holy Spirit, if you're in step with the Holy Spirit, if you're in a relationship, He is going to continually ask you to change your way of thinking.
	Now, brief history.
	From 2013 to 2016, I had started writing books.
	Writing books on Divine Healing Made Simple.
	That was my first book.
	And then I wrote other books.
	I wrote 12 books in the span of four years.
	And I thought I was just going to be an author.
	I quit my job as a paramedic in 2015.
	I thought I'm just going to write books.
	I got tons of ideas for books.
	And then in 2016, 2017, Trump came along.
	The Lord said, I want you to focus on Trump.
	I want you to focus on politics.
	I'm like, I don't like politics.
	I don't like current events.
	Politics, it's all a bunch of corrupt losers.
	I don't, I'm not even interested in that stuff.
	And the Lord said, no, I want you to focus on this.
	And then Q came along in 2017.
	And the Lord said, I want you to focus on that.
	I'm like, I don't get it.
	I don't understand any of this.
	Like, why does this, why is this important?
	Why does this matter?
	Again, the Holy Spirit will continually challenge what you believe to be true.
	And he has been doing that continually for the last, like I said, 12 years.
	The Holy Spirit is continually challenging me, changing my way of thinking, changing my perspective, changing my view, changing my views on a lot of things, politics, spiritual matters.
	So, real quick, for those of you who do not have much church background, Information, background on religion, on Christianity.
	Some of you, I know, don't go to church.
	Some of you don't know much about Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
	That's fine.
	You're going to learn today.
	Some basics.
	We're going to start out pretty basic.
	So, Jesus came, and his life is chronicled in the New Testament.
	Jesus came as the Messiah, the Anointed One of God.
	And the Bible says that he went around After he had demonstrated the realities of healing and miracles and deliverance, he was training his disciples.
	Casting out demons and doing great and marvelous works.
	After he had demonstrated the realities of healing and miracles and deliverance, he was training his disciples.
	Luke chapter 9 verse 1 says, When he called his twelve disciples, he gave them power and authority over demons and to cure diseases.
	So he gave his disciples power and authority.
	And then he told them, go out and heal the sick.
	Matthew chapter 10.
	Go out, heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, freely have you received, freely give, preach the kingdom of God.
	That's the 12.
	That's in Matthew 10.
	And in Luke chapter 10, he commissioned 70 more disciples.
	Gave them the same commission.
	Go out, heal the sick that are there, and tell them the kingdom of God has come.
	Right?
	Now, that was the model of ministry Jesus demonstrated, and it's the model of ministry he gave to his disciples.
	Then in the Gospel of John, he said something very interesting.
	He said, If you are my disciple, you'll do the things that I do, okay?
	He who believes in me, the works that I do, he will also do, and greater works, because they go to my Father.
	Now, if you think that the only people, the only person that can heal is Jesus and the disciples of the first century.
	Jesus said, if you believe in him, the works he did, you will also do in greater works because he goes to his father.
	That is a commission to everyone who is a disciple of Jesus.
	For the last 2,000 years, everyone who is a follower of Jesus has been commissioned to do this.
	This is, according to him, this is normal Christianity.
	The stuff that he did, we're supposed to be doing.
	Now, I had to go back and start reading the New Testament with a new set of eyes because I had studied the Bible, but I'd never seen anyone healed, never saw a miracle, I don't think I ever encountered a demon.
	When I went back and started reading all this stuff, I was like, wait a minute, it's all there!
	How did I miss this?
	How did I not see that we should be doing this?
	So, I'm going to turn this over to Brian for a minute here, or 10 or 15.
	And Brian is going to kind of walk us through basic, elemental, foundational principles for the Ministry of Healing.
	Brian, you want to take the mic?
	You bet.
	Thank you, Dave.
	Guys, I know a lot of you are listening to Dave.
	I so love listening to his testimonies of how the Lord's led him.
	So thank you, Dave, for letting me come and do this with you.
	Okay, so let's Let's start with some basic things here.
	So when we talk about serving people, that's what the word ministry means, the Lord is very basic in the fact that He wants us to have the love of God come into us in such a way that we become satisfied with it and then we start seeing other people that are in need of the love of God.
	So my goal in walking with the Lord is to hold.
	It's how do I get as much love in me to release it into other people so that they can see a loving Father.
	And so when we say ministry, we always see the technical part of it, but the big picture is the love of God touching mankind and making himself known to them.
	And so I'm very much, that's kind of what I would say is the big picture in my head when I do ministry, is how can I reveal the love of the Father to people in such a way that they not only recognize him, but they fall in love with him.
	And so I think that's what Jesus was about.
	I believe that's what we're to be about.
	And so that's really my heart.
	And so, just like Dave talked about it, I've had to go through a mental transformation on what is the reality of the gospel, the good news to people, and how do I become effective in doing this?
	And I think Jesus is after effectiveness, not just trying to do things, but actually having impact and transformative power release to people.
	And so, everybody that becomes, like, In love with God and they want to serve Him, this thing becomes important in their heart.
	How do I actually do this effectively?
	And I think the Lord actually gives us very simple tools to do it.
	But if you guys are like I am, I read simple things in the scripture and then I try to make them confusing.
	And so the Lord is always trying to help us.
	This isn't that hard.
	The problem isn't not understanding.
	It's more of a You have to get over the fear of man or the fear of failure.
	You have been through failed models of ministry.
	A lot of the people, when you started out, you prayed for them.
	They got worse.
	You thought, this is a train wreck.
	What am I doing wrong?
	Should I be doing this at all?
	Obviously, I don't have the anointing.
	I'm not called to this.
	Why am I doing this, right?
	And then you said you discovered this model that uses the presence of the Holy Spirit, the presence of God.
	The Manifest Glory.
	And I want to, real quickly, I've got my notes here.
	If you read the Old Testament, you'll find passages where the prophets talk about the glory of God, the manifest presence of God.
	The glory of God filled the temple, the Old Testament temple.
	And this is from Ezekiel 10, verses 18 and 19.
	Then the glory of the Lord departed from the threshold of the temple and stood over the cherubim.
	Ezekiel saw a cloud of God's glory and it would move.
	It would move into the temple.
	It moved out of the temple.
	He saw it when it was coming and going.
	Ezekiel had a lot of his visions that he records are the visions of the glory of the Lord.
	When Jesus was baptized in the Jordan, John the Baptist saw The Holy Spirit descending on Jesus and remain there.
	Alright, this is the Spirit of God, but it was, you know, whether it was a cloud or a bright shining, we don't know what it was, but it was something that John saw and it moved.
	He could see it moving.
	Now, Brian talks a lot about the glory of the Lord, the presence, God's presence, and us asking God to bring His presence into the healing dynamic.
	Okay, so since we have to talk about how to minister effectively, and Dave just introduced the idea of the glory of the Lord, this is very important.
	All ministry cannot work without the presence of the Lord.
	And I go back and forth with people on this But people say, well, I never invite the presence, Lord, but I pray for people with authority and God heals them.
	That's because God is good.
	That's not, well, I skip that principle.
	God still, you cannot heal a person without the presence of a Lord.
	Models don't heal people.
	The presence of God does.
	And so The person that says, well, I just have a model and it heals, what they're saying is, I'm just oblivious to the presence of the Lord, but God still is coming by words of power, and He's still doing it, whether they recognize the presence of the Lord or not.
	You know, I get in rooms with people that don't even believe this is possible today, and I get in rooms with people that do this, and we go back and forth on this, and as a person that does this quite a bit, Everyone has their faith in certain areas.
	My faith is actually not in giftedness.
	My faith is in the presence of the Lord, because if He doesn't show up, we're not going anywhere with this experience.
	And the good thing is, you could be terrible at doing ministry, but if the presence of the Lord shows up, He does 90% of it without you even being involved because he's so good at ministering.
	Do you think that he's, I'm not going to say orchestrated some of your disasters, but has he sort of forced you to lean on his presence because, you know, you're not exactly David Hogan?
	Yeah, I think for me, as I started looking at the healing ministry throughout the church age, I started realizing that we're talking about effective ministry now.
	For it to bump up to another level, you have really got to understand how God does ministry, not how to learn a better technique.
	And so when we say stay in step with the Spirit, we're actually talking about there's a way that God ministers to people, and the more that you can come into agreement with that, the more power that's released over people.
	And so we're learning how to do that.
	Can I...
	Can I share a dream that I had years ago?
	So I would be praying for people to be healed and no one was getting healed.
	And I'd come back home and God would give me a dream.
	I'm in the ambulance.
	I'm transporting a patient.
	I pray with them and they get healed.
	One night I had a dream where I'm in the ambulance.
	I have a severely traumatized patient.
	This guy had like every bone in his body was crushed.
	I'm transporting him in the ambulance.
	I don't do anything.
	I didn't start an IV.
	I didn't put him on the heart monitor.
	I didn't get vital signs.
	I didn't do anything.
	We get to the hospital.
	We roll him into the ER.
	And the doctor goes and looks at him and says, there's nothing wrong with this guy.
	What did you do?
	And I said, I didn't do anything.
	Right?
	In that dream, as I was sitting on the bench seat of the ambulance, I knew The presence of God was in the ambulance healing all of his injuries.
	And I didn't do anything!
	And that was, I think, the first revelation that God gave me that His presence is able to do things.
	I can sit back and watch.
	I can be completely oblivious to what He's doing.
	And He's doing something in that person that I am not aware of.
	Hey, so Dave, do you have, maybe you've done any reading on different healers through the church age, like John G Lake and people like that?
	Yep.
	Okay, do you remember the story of John G Lake when he was in Africa one time, and he had actually done a whole day of healing ministry, and he wanted to go eat food, and so he asked the Lord, what do you want me to do?
	And the Lord said, put your hand on this rock, call down my presence on this rock and go home.
	Had you heard that story?
	Yep.
	They even have written testimony of him leaving and people staying there and touching the rock where the presence of God is.
	And getting healed!
	Yeah, and so, I mean, think about this.
	In my head, I'm sitting around going, now wait a minute.
	I can just spend hours doing this stuff, or I can learn how the presence of God does this and come into agreement with that, and that's where I think it takes it to the next level.
	I've been fortunate enough to go to other nations where we're having thousands and thousands of people in crusades and the Lord's saying, I don't want you to pray for every individual, I want you to release my presence over people and I'll come and do the ministry.
	And once I started realizing, wait a minute, this is all tied to the presence of the Lord.
	I need to just, what is God doing in a situation?
	How do I stand step with it?
	How do I flow with that power?
	If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to share something about one thing.
	When I was in Africa, we were doing crusades.
	We had presented the gospel and a whole group of people had come up to receive the Lord.
	And I'm standing up on the stage with the Lord and I'm saying, He's going, I want to heal people now.
	And I'm like, well, how are we supposed to do this?
	I mean, do you want to call him up or model it?
	He says, no, no, I did this with my son.
	He would have days where he would just call on my presence.
	I want you to just say, Holy Spirit, come to this audience right now.
	And so I said, Holy Spirit, would you come right now with your power and your presence?
	Now, I had read about this stuff with John Wesley and other people, and I thought, really, is it that simple?
	And the power of God hit the audience, and there was a guy that was like about three rows deep in the audience, and he was crippled.
	I watched him through the whole thing.
	Not only had he received the Lord, the power of God hit him, literally.
	And the crowd was pressing so close together, I could tell that he was overwhelmed by the presence of the Lord.
	He wanted to fall, but he was so pressed in he couldn't.
	And I was watching him being ministered to by the presence of the Lord.
	And then I said, has anyone gotten healed?
	And he was crippled.
	He lifts his crutch up in the air and he said, when you said the power of God, this lightning bolt of energy went through my body and I knew I was healed.
	And he's like, I'm healed.
	So by the way, let me share another story.
	When Jesus said, heal the sick, cast out demons and raise the dead, Some of you are going to say, well, what about raising the dead?
	All right.
	I have a friend named Jesse Berkey.
	B-I-R-K-E-Y.
	Jesse Berkey.
	He's a firefighter, paramedic.
	He works down in Sarasota, Florida.
	I've known Jesse for years.
	He's written a book called Life Resurrected.
	Okay.
	Years ago, he decided to take God up on his promise to heal people if he would pray for them.
	Okay, so Jesse gets into this dynamic in his mind where he's just going to pray for people and hoping they're going to be healed in the ambulance, kind of like what I was doing, right?
	The day that he decided he was going to take God up on this offer and he was going to pray for his patients, he goes on a call in the ambulance, and it's a chest pain patient, and responding to the call on the way there, Dispatcher tells him that the patient's in cardiac arrest.
	And he's listening to the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit says, I want you to pray for him, and I'm gonna raise him from the dead.
	So Jesse's like, no, you can't do this to me!
	I was like, sprained ankle, headache, let's start with something easy.
	Nope.
	Jesse gets to raise the dead on his very first try.
	So he goes on the call, And they hook up the EKG monitor, and this guy's in asystole.
	He's flatlined.
	Alright?
	They're doing CPR.
	They're doing compressions.
	They've not started an IV.
	They have not intubated.
	They haven't done any treatments other than CPR.
	Okay?
	Jesse says, I command you to come back to life in the name of Jesus.
	And the guy opens his eyes and wakes up.
	Okay?
	Now, hang on.
	It gets better.
	So, this guy wakes up.
	He's got He's neurologically intact.
	He's got no neuro deficits.
	He didn't want to go to the hospital.
	He's like, get off me.
	Leave me alone.
	I'm fine.
	I'm not going to the hospital.
	I said, no, you need to go to the hospital.
	You were in cardiac arrest.
	We were doing CPR on you, right?
	So the guy goes in, clean bill of health, comes home.
	A couple of weeks later, Jesse is on a call and it's not in his main response area.
	He's responding to another engine company's area.
	It's a long response, like 15 minutes to get there.
	And it's for a drowning.
	So this woman was found dead on the bottom of the pool in their backyard by her husband.
	She had been underwater for at least 15 minutes by the time Jessie got there.
	Wow.
	Right?
	So her husband drags her dead body out of the pool and they get there and the husband and the daughter are doing CPR on this woman.
	Okay?
	Jessie's in the back of the ambulance and the Holy Spirit tells him I want you to command her to come back to life." And Jesse's like, uh, not, no, no.
	What?
	No.
	The Holy Spirit's like, no, I want you to command her to come back to life.
	I'm going to raise her from the dead.
	And he's like, oh, why do you do this to me?
	So, so he, he goes in, they're doing CPR.
	They have not intubated her, no IV yet.
	He's setting up the IV equipment.
	And he goes over to her and he says, in the name of Jesus, I command you to come back to life.
	Boom.
	She comes back up, sits up.
	She's awake.
	She's back alive.
	She's no neurological deficit, completely healed.
	And they've been doing CPR on her for at least 15 minutes.
	Okay, cool.
	Jesse has, I think he's got half a dozen testimonies in his book of people he's prayed for in the ambulance that have come back to life with no drugs, No IV, not shocking them, just faith, just prayer and committing to come back to life.
	So in case you're wondering, yes, God still is raising people from the dead.
	Oh yeah.
	Go ahead.
	He's never stopped doing what he's always been about.
	It's actually us that need to catch up with what he's doing, to be honest with you.
	And a little bit of obedience doesn't hurt.
	Yeah, that's right.
	That's right.
	Well, and we have, we're back to this again.
	And so we're talking about models of ministry.
	I think the basic model that everyone has to learn is how to recognize the glory of God and the presence of God, and then to build that as foundation, and then do all ministry.
	Actually, that's what Jesus modeled.
	The whole baptism of Jesus was the power of the Holy Spirit coming on him, and then him flowing with the Spirit.
	Now, you often talk about, when you're doing ministry, you say, If you watch what's going on, you can see the Holy Spirit land on people.
	What are you talking about?
	Okay, so there's two ways that that happens.
	One is, you described it, God gives you a vision, and I'm just going to be really basic when I describe that.
	People are having visions all the time.
	It's a picture.
	The word vision in the New Testament, it's a word that's used to describe Not visual things.
	It's used as an encounter word.
	And then, in a vision, you can have pictures, or you hear things, or you feel things.
	So, vision is how the Bible describes a unique thing that your God is speaking to you.
	So, a lot of times, when I'm praying for people, like in audiences or individuals on the street, I can observe naturally, because, you know, we're at thousands of people have watched this, I can see the Holy Spirit Their anatomical body is responding to the presence of the Lord.
	Their breathing has changed, or they break out in a sweat, or they start shaking, or I talk to them, what are you sensing?
	Wow, this presence has come over me, or this power, so I can observe it naturally, and then God will show me a picture in my mind of... He does it differently with each person.
	He shows me a light of His glory resting on them, and then He'll Make his presence known, where I'll sense what he's doing as I'm looking at them, and then he'll let me know, see how my power is resting on you, that's how I'm resting on them, and see how this thing is going on in your body, that's what I'm doing to them.
	And so it's that kind of thing.
	So when you sense peace, okay, an unusual, sudden sense of peace overwhelms you, and correct me if I'm wrong, You're then interpreting that as, the Lord is bringing them peace.
	And he's signaling to you, this is what I'm doing in them.
	Yeah.
	So when you go, you and I start praying for an individual.
	See, a lot of times, most of us are just trying to engage God.
	So we're just saying, well, how am I sensing the Lord?
	But the minute I move towards another individual, how I sense the Lord is what he's doing in that person.
	Because the Lord is, it's like, if I could, if I could illustrate it, it's like Jesus is in heaven.
	He's holding my hand and he's holding the other person's hand.
	And so there's a connection going on between me, that person, and the Lord at the same time.
	And so he's saying, I'm going to use you to minister my presence into them.
	And so I'm going to let you pick up on how I'm ministering to this person so that you can tell them so that they can connect.
	It's me that's doing this.
	And so this would be what the Bible calls discernment.
	The Holy Spirit manifests how the Holy Spirit is moving in a person, and you'll pick up on pain, past issues, all the stuff that people are struggling with.
	He'll show you the obstacle.
	He'll show you how he wants to minister to them.
	He'll either let you feel it, or you'll hear it, or he'll show you a picture.
	It's like putting a puzzle together.
	You just learn to do each piece And that's on purpose because God is ministering to people in waves.
	It's too hard for everyone to just receive sometimes everything.
	So God comes and He talks about this, and then He talks about this, and then He talks about this.
	And that's to help them through the process of receiving what God wants to do for them.
	And God's restoration of us is a process.
	And He sort of has an order.
	He has, I wouldn't say a list, but it's kind of a list.
	He has an agenda.
	First he wants to do this, then he wants to fix this, and he wants to restore that.
	And we often get that thing out of order.
	We think, well, he needs his knee healed.
	And the Lord's like, no, I have something else I want to do.
	This is a very frustrating thing for me.
	And I'm glad I don't get to do personal one-on-one ministry anymore, because it's a source of frustration.
	I'm sitting here in a church, and I'm teaching, and these people have knee pain, they have neck pain, they've got hip pain.
	They come up for ministry, and they want me to get their knee pain healed, and the Lord starts talking to me about their past, their emotional trauma.
	I'm like, dang it!
	I don't want to do emotional healing right now!
	This guy has a knee problem!
	It goes back to the premise that we were first talking about, and it's this.
	We get caught in models Instead of the presence of the Lord, and so we believe our model solves every problem.
	God gives models as railroad tracks to run on so you can get used to the presence of the Holy Spirit, so you don't need the model anymore.
	And so, when people come to me and they say, my hip's bothering me, immediately I say, Lord, bring your power upon him right now.
	And then I go back into the Lord and go, okay, now what's the root of it?
	They're telling me this.
	Then the Lord takes over and starts leading me.
	Say this, pray this, here's where I'm going with them.
	And so a lot of times I used to think, why am I doing it this way?
	God would have me start prophesying over them about their future, and that was the process that He took them through to get them ready to receive healing.
	Yeah, because sometimes what the Lord actually wants to do with them is He wants to restore their marriage, which is on the rocks.
	You know, I mean, I have a lot of people who come to me, you know, I've got neck pain, back pain, my marriage is falling apart, my business is falling apart.
	Like, well, maybe Lord wants to restore your business first.
	Or because you're suffering emotional trauma over the fear of losing your business.
	If the Lord restores your business, that takes away the fear, and that may remove that place in your heart where the enemy is tormenting you over that, or your marriage.
	That's right.
	And that goes, it takes us back to this thing where I believe the Lord knows how to do effective ministry, so it'd be better for me to follow Him than to just have an idea of what I think I ought to do in this situation.
	But that takes years to figure that out, because I don't know what it is about the human race and our idea that we think we know what's best in a situation, but God has to work on us.
	You really need to die to that.
	You need to let me lead you in this stuff.
	That's kind of the whole journey of this, is learning to let the Lord lead you.
	It is, and that kind of segues into the next thing I wanted to just kind of briefly discuss, since we're talking about, you know, following the Holy Spirit, let the Lord lead us.
	The reason that I opened this discussion with the proposition that if your way of thinking isn't being challenged, you're probably not hearing the Holy Spirit.
	Yeah.
	Because the Bible says His ways are not our ways.
	Okay?
	Right?
	As far as the heavens are above the earth, his ways are above ours.
	The way that I know I'm hearing from the Holy Spirit is when I get these thought impressions in my mind that are not mine.
	They're not the way I think.
	It's a different issue.
	It's a different perspective.
	It's a different, you know, way of seeing things.
	And I'm like, wait a minute, like that's, that's not how I see it.
	And the Holy Spirit's like, well, maybe you need to change your way of thinking.
	Cause that's how I see it.
	One good way to know that you're hearing from the Holy Spirit is when your worldview, your perception, your idea, your model, your recipe, your script, whatever, you know, if your life is just cruise control, everything's going great, you never feel challenged in what's happening in your life, I would ask you to really question yourself if you're actually hearing from the Holy Spirit.
	Because the more I listen to God, the more He challenges what I'm doing, what I'm thinking, what I think should be happening.
	Oh yeah.
	I agree with you.
	And so, when we talk about... Dave, can I just stop for a second?
	I need to share something real quick.
	Yeah.
	So someone in the audience, I don't know when you're going to hear this, but you have an issue with your lungs.
	I keep saying it.
	So let me describe the process.
	I feel the power of the Holy Spirit on me right now.
	And what's happening is a picture is forming in my mind and I'm seeing like an x-ray and it's of a lung and what I'm seeing is at the top part of the lung there's some kind of inflammation that's causing breathing problems and the Spirit of the Lord is actually coming over right now and he's clearing that up and there's a strength that's actually coming into your lungs that you've been longing for for a long period of time
	And you actually cried out to the Lord to deal with this, and the Lord is saying, it's time to receive His goodness.
	And so the Lord's actually touching that lung issue that you have.
	Awesome.
	Can I do something real quick?
	Yeah.
	All right.
	I'm going to release power to heal shoulder injuries, elbow injuries, sprains, strains, knee injuries, ankle injuries, low back pain, and neck pain.
	All right.
	Here's what I want you to do.
	If you're listening to this broadcast and you have neck pain, shoulder pain, elbow pain, carpal tunnel, hip pain, knee or ankle pain, chronic pain, I want you to receive your healing right now.
	I want you to believe that you're going to be healed.
	Okay?
	I want you to believe that you're going to be healed.
	All right.
	Holy Spirit, bring your presence upon them.
	Yes, Lord.
	Lord, bring your healing presence upon him.
	And I command pain and inflammation to leave right now.
	I command spirits of pain, get out.
	Ligaments and nerves, tendons, cartilage, muscles and bones be healed.
	Carpal tunnels be opened.
	Rotator cuff be healed, made brand new right now.
	Acetabulum I command you to be healed.
	New meniscus.
	If you have a blown out meniscus, I command your body to have a brand new meniscus right now.
	Ankles healed.
	Knees healed.
	Pain and inflammation.
	I command you to get out.
	Now just receive your healing.
	All right.
	So, continue.
	What were we saying?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Where were we at?
	Okay.
	So, if I... Let's see if I can go back here.
	I'm sure we'll leave it again.
	So when Jesus ministered to people, he was very intentional on how he modeled it to the disciples.
	So that's what we want to do is want to be intentional about it.
	So how did Jesus minister to people?
	So what we're going to do is we're going to do a thing called the five stage healing model.
	This is the pastoral model.
	And I want to describe, some of you might know this, some of you have never heard of it.
	Where did this come from?
	Well, this actually came, a lot of people think it came from John Wimber and the Vineyard Movement.
	But John Webber is pretty straightforward to say.
	He got it from Francis McNutt, and if you want to go search who he is.
	And what he did is he just went and looked at the healing ministry of Jesus, and he said, well, how did Jesus actually heal?
	And he took people through five stages, and the first stage was, it's called asking questions.
	So, I've thought about this.
	Why do we have to ask questions if we could just get a word of knowledge and stuff like that?
	The reality of it is, is you ask questions for their benefit, because God is trying to get them to open their hearts to receive from Him.
	And so you ask questions like, how long has it been hurting?
	What are you dealing with?
	What's the issue?
	And Dave and I just went through this, but they're going to tell you just gobs of stuff.
	Well, you know, I have this and this and this and this.
	And when I used to first do this, You're not diagnosing somebody.
	You're just getting to get them to open their hearts to tell you what the issue is.
	But people would tell me stuff, and they'd start at the age of seven.
	Well, when I was seven, this happened, and then I'd take these three medications, and now I have this issue.
	And by the time they got done, they had 47 issues, and I just thought, gosh, I know I don't have faith to pray for you, and I don't even think Jesus can heal that.
	I mean, this is just overwhelming.
	What a mess!
	And so I didn't understand that.
	The process of doing it It's so fun to do it with children.
	You get people to learn to say, where's it hurt?
	That's what I need to know.
	Because God wants to minister to that, so that you know when He ministers to you, it was Him that did it.
	It isn't, God knows this, I don't even know if we need to know this, it's for the person that's receiving ministry.
	When Jesus healed the Saturnian servant, the servant didn't tell him what was wrong with him.
	He didn't get a name, he didn't get x-rays, and you know, his lab tests, and his medical The servant said, my servant is sick.
	I need him healed.
	Jesus is like, okay.
	Well, don't you need to know his name?
	And he's like, no.
	What Dave's doing, and what he's rightly doing, is he's pointing out different healing experiences.
	And you're gonna find this to be true.
	Once I even talk to you about this, you're gonna go, well, it doesn't work that way every time.
	That's right.
	It doesn't work that way every time.
	Nothing works that way every time.
	It doesn't work because models don't heal people.
	We're giving you a model to start.
	Once you get used to the presence of the Holy Spirit, you can just chuck the model.
	The model just doesn't even help you, really.
	You're to learn it to get used to the presence of the Holy Spirit, and then you can do ministry.
	So, you ask questions.
	They say, I have this problem.
	What are you doing?
	While they're talking to you, it's your Joy to connect with the Lord.
	So when I say, Holy Spirit, would you come and minister to this person, I'm entering in and I'm asking God's questions.
	Now, when we talk about hearing the voice of the Lord, I get this question so many times, I could write a book on just this question.
	Why don't you?
	How do I hear God easily?
	It's simple.
	It only took me 15 years to figure it out, but here's the answer.
	God is love.
	The best way to connect with God is by asking Him questions about His love for the person.
	So if they have a need condition, you say, well, reveal your love to me about this person.
	It's for you.
	Really, you get it?
	It's about your heart was made to connect with the love of God.
	And so when you say, God, share your love with me, you connect almost immediately with the presence of the Lord.
	It's better than saying, give me a word.
	Trying to get a word is hard.
	But when you say, would you share your love with me?
	You get an instant connection with the Lord, and then you start flowing with the Holy Spirit.
	I was at a restaurant with Denise a few years ago.
	And we had just ate dinner.
	We paid our check.
	We were on our way out the door and I saw this waitress walking by me limping, right?
	And I said, Hey, what's wrong with your foot?
	She goes, I got a, I got a bone spur.
	It's, it's nothing.
	I said, you want to be healed?
	And she was like, what do you mean?
	I said, would you like to be healed?
	She goes, do you like, what are you?
	I said, I pray for people in restaurants and grocery stores.
	A lot of them get healed.
	So she said, okay, sure.
	What do I have to do?
	I said, do you have like two minutes to just sit down?
	She said, yeah, I got a couple minutes.
	So she sat down.
	She took her shoe off.
	And I said this, I said, Holy Spirit bring your presence.
	Boom!
	I was almost knocked on the floor in the lobby of a restaurant.
	The Lord came so quickly.
	I wasn't expecting it.
	Now normally I'll ask, you know, Holy Spirit bring your presence.
	And, you know, I'll sense something, I'll sense, you know, joy, or I'll sense a little, you know, dizziness.
	This, his presence came so quickly, it literally almost knocked me over in a lobby of a restaurant.
	And that, and that told me, okay, he really wants to heal this woman.
	And she got healed.
	And there was another waitress who had another issue.
	She had a hip injury.
	She got healed in a restaurant, at Chili's Restaurant.
	Sensing the Holy Spirit, sensing what He wants to do, like Brian said, that love, connect with the love of God and He'll show you how much He loves those people in what areas.
	Go ahead, Brian.
	I'll stop.
	No, no, I think that's great.
	And then Dave described the quality of God's power.
	Now think about that.
	I teach people to do this and a lot of people say, I don't ever sense the presence of the Lord and yet God releases power.
	And then other people say, wow, I can really feel the power.
	And Dave described that reality.
	So when we minister to another person, God helps us to connect with him so that we can pray effectively.
	But sometimes he just says, well, I'm actually just going to use you in the process.
	I'm going to do this just for them.
	Sometimes you sense it.
	Sometimes you don't.
	Here's the thing about who the Lord is.
	God doesn't do miracles.
	God is miraculous by nature.
	So every encounter with the Lord is tapping into the miraculous.
	You don't have to beg for it.
	That's just what God does.
	That's His nature, is to do miracles.
	And so, trying to help people realize, that's why I need to be dependent on the presence of the Lord.
	Once, Dave, you've probably experienced this, once God ministers to one person, I mean, I'm usually in a lot of meetings with people, a lot of people in a room, Once God's presence comes on one person, all of a sudden, this explosion of the Holy Spirit hits everybody, and then God just starts ministering to people, and you can't even keep up with it after a while.
	You're just sitting back going, well, God did this, God did that.
	Yeah.
	Then you get to emcee the Holy Spirit.
	That's why, I don't know if you ever feel this way, but that's why I never take credit for healing, because I never did it in the first place.
	Every time I tried to heal somebody, no one ever got healed.
	It just, it made it worse.
	And so... Right.
	And that's, that's me, right?
	I was begging God, you know, Lord, if it's your will, please heal these people.
	And I did that 500 people, restaurants, grocery stores, any ambulance, nobody got healed.
	I was not tapping into God's presence.
	I was, I didn't, I knew nothing about authority.
	I knew nothing about power.
	I was just using the model that I had been taught.
	I need to ask God to heal this person and I didn't see anyone heal.
	And it's not, it's not like God won't heal people through petition.
	He can do that if he wants to, but it's much more effective.
	Right?
	Brian said, we're looking at what is the effective ministry approach?
	It's much more effective to invite the Holy Spirit into the dynamic and let Him do what He wants to do and let Him lead you.
	Oh yeah, yeah.
	So good.
	Okay, so we're back to, so I asked the person what's wrong with them.
	Now I'm waiting on the Lord.
	He's giving me information.
	And I guess I'm going to leave it at that level because when you start saying, well, I've got a revelation or a word of knowledge, everyone starts getting confused.
	And that's why you have to spend all this time trying to explain it.
	So God just talks to you.
	He says things like, hey, say this or pray this way.
	And that's what you're learning to do is you're learning to stay in step with what he's doing.
	It liberated me to realize it's not my job to figure out how to pray for the person, it's my job to stay in step with God and just enjoy the process instead of getting stressed out through the long term.
	And this answers the most frequent question that I get, which is, I've prayed, I've fasted, I tried power, I tried exercise authority, I've been doing this, I've been doing that, I'm still not healed.
	Why have I not been healed?
	And I hate to say this, it's not a cop-out, but when I ask, what has the Holy Spirit showed you?
	And inevitably the answer is, well, I don't really hear God's voice.
	That's problem number one.
	Problem number one is, I don't have the answer.
	The Lord does.
	I'm not the one who heals you.
	The Lord is the one who heals you.
	He's the one who knows what the key is.
	He has the key.
	Okay.
	He has the key.
	He has the power.
	He's the one who can do it.
	And if you're not hearing God's voice, that's the first problem you need to solve.
	It's not a question of, what do I need to do to get healed?
	A better question would be, how do I get trained and equipped so I can hear the Holy Spirit, so I can know what He's saying to me?
	Because when I was praying over Denise, and she's got gluten intolerance and some other issues, The Lord finally told me one night in a dream that she needs her DNA healed.
	I was like, oh, okay.
	Well, at least now I know what the problem is.
	The Lord will give you the key if you ask for it, but you have to learn how to, you know, communicate with Him, how to hear Him.
	That's right.
	Well, this goes back to a really fun story.
	I went to Guatemala to do some meetings and I got a parasite.
	And so, I don't know if you ever do this, Dave, but sometimes, even though the stuff I'm telling everybody, I forget, and then I go back to all these dumb methods.
	So I'm trying everything I can think of to get over this parasite.
	I'm even drinking wine, which I never do, trying to get over a parasite.
	And I'm taking round and rounds of antibiotics, and it's just tearing up my colon, and I'm like, wow, is this my life from this point on?
	And finally, the Lord said, at these basic pieces of information.
	I said, "Are you going to heal me?" And the Lord responded back to me and said, "Well, why don't you ask me how I want to heal you "instead of asking me to heal you?" I said, "Well, how do you want to heal me?" And the Lord said, "What I want you to do "is I want you to..." So not only was I had this problem, because of the antibiotics, it maybe had a sciatic nerve issue on top of it.
	So I just have all this stuff going on.
	And the Lord says, so three times a day, I want you to invite my presence.
	Just like you're taking a drug, I want you to invite my presence three times a day on you.
	And I want you to command the pain to leave.
	So the first week I did it, it didn't get better.
	And I thought, really, was that the Lord?
	I mean, this is ridiculous.
	And then the Lord kept encouraging me.
	No, that's me.
	Just keep going for it.
	So I'm doing it.
	I'm doing it.
	About three weeks into it, I started realizing, oh, the pain's now lessening.
	And then I think I was, I just got into the habit of doing it.
	Holy Spirit come, I'd wait a few moments.
	I command the pain to leave in my hip and all this stuff.
	Then about a month into it, I realized I'm praying and I don't have any of the problems and I didn't even connect the fact that God had healed me.
	And after that happened, It helped me, especially praying for myself or when I'm praying for other people.
	I'm not trying to get God to do something he already wants to do.
	Now I'm asking God, how do you want to do this?
	And again, we're talking about being effective.
	That's more effective than just begging.
	Right.
	That is a really good story.
	And by the way, I just want to throw this in.
	So when Jesus gave his commission to his disciples, He told them to go out into the villages and heal the sick.
	And the Bible says in a number of places that entire villages were healed.
	As many as touched the hem of his garment, they were all healed.
	Jesus didn't say, okay, there's about half the people out there.
	The Father is trying to, you know, build their character and they need to do a little suffering is going to do them good.
	So don't get those people healed, but get everybody else healed.
	Okay.
	Now, No one who came to Jesus for healing was ever turned away, and Jesus made no exceptions for healing.
	There wasn't any instruction that, you know, we're working out a plan in this person's life so they're not going to get healed.
	It is the Lord's... God decided 2,000 years ago He wanted you healed, and He has not changed His mind about that.
	Like Brian said, it's not an issue of, are you going to heal me?
	It's a question of, how are you going to heal me?
	That's the question.
	Yep.
	So, isn't this great?
	We all get to go through all this stuff and try to figure it out.
	And so, now here we are.
	We're back to the thing where, so you ask questions, the Lord gives you insight.
	Now we're moving into the fun part.
	How should I pray for the person?
	Now, most people believe that prayer is just petition.
	So, petition is a unique word for prayer.
	It means taking an immediate need and presenting it to the Lord.
	But that's not every form of prayer that's in the Bible.
	In fact, Dave, you talk about this all the time.
	There's prayers that come from God to us, and we come into agreement with them.
	There are prayers that God gives to us, and we speak it into a situation.
	And then there's prayers that come to us, and we not only speak it, but we declare it as being done, even though it's not done.
	And so what happens is when people pray for people, they just go into petition almost all the time.
	So they say, God, how do you want to do it?
	They tell him.
	And then they start begging God again.
	Oh, God, please!
	It's like they, at every step, there's a tendency in the heart to throw off the presence of the Lord, grab onto a model, and then trust the model to do it.
	And that's that whole thing about learning to dance with the Holy Spirit.
	You've got to hang on to him.
	And everyone thinks, well, isn't this a long, drawn-out process?
	When you're first doing it, you have to unlearn bad, ineffective models of how to pray for people.
	But once you learn to do this, it flows very gently.
	You learn to say, how do you want me to do this, Lord?
	How do you want me to say that?
	What do you want to do now?
	And you start realizing, Jesus is actually still the healer.
	All I'm doing is, I'm like a nurse.
	I'm joining Him.
	And he's saying, now get that and add that to it.
	Or they're struggling here, just tell them this.
	And he's just, he's ministering to them.
	And then you begin to recognize, that's what effective ministry is.
	He's ministering to them.
	Any obstacle they have, he tells me, say this, do this, tell them this.
	Because they can't hear.
	People have blind spots to hearing God on certain issues.
	And so he says, well you go join them, and I'll use you to talk to them about this stuff.
	Amen.
	Keep going.
	You're preaching good.
	What's an effective prayer?
	And when I teach this and I do this with people around the world, I'm always stopping them at this point.
	I'm saying, I've got to tell you some news that you don't want to hear, but you need to do this to get to the next level.
	We need to just stop praying and thinking every prayer is effective.
	We need to actually analyze our prayer in real time and say, when I prayed, did something change right after I prayed?
	Because, you know, we only have so much time on this planet, and Dave and I are probably on the same page with this.
	I don't want to hit and miss when I pray for people.
	I want to hit, and I want to see them change, and I want them coming into the kingdom.
	And so I'll take as much time as it takes to work through things with people, but I don't want to waste their time, and I don't want to waste my time over here doing nothing that's not effective.
	And so at this point, Jesus actually, this is where he started talking to the disciples about their lack of faith.
	And I'll work through that with you guys.
	But he just, he started getting intense with the disciples, like, hey, you know, we just went to this city, and you raised people from the dead, and here's a kid, you can't drive a demon out of them.
	What are you guys doing?
	And so, and people don't understand this part of Jesus being that way with the disciples.
	I understand it now.
	Because we have this tendency inside of us.
	I don't like saying this to people.
	We have this tendency inside of us to just fall in love with models instead of the presence of the Holy Spirit.
	I'm guilty.
	I fall back on models because sometimes I'm just lazy.
	I don't want to have to, like, you know, Lord, what do you say about this?
	Why can't I just use my little model?
	Just command this.
	It'll all be healed.
	That's right.
	But the thing is, and I would just like to jump in here real quick.
	This again comes down to an issue of priorities.
	For most of us, what we want is, we want to be healed.
	Or we want to know what our destiny is, or we want our ministry to be blessed, or our business blessed.
	We want, we want, we want.
	We have a list of wants, and God has a different list.
	The top on his list is relationship.
	That is the number one thing God wants with us.
	It's relationship.
	He's a lover.
	He wants us to walk with Him.
	And a lot of times what we want to do is we just want to use our little model that we learned.
	And, you know, I just need God.
	I need God right now to fix this issue.
	And when He fixes that issue, then I'm good.
	I can go on my own and do my own thing.
	And the Lord is interested in relationships.
	And I hate to say this, but I'm going to say this.
	God doesn't make this process difficult just to make it difficult.
	He doesn't make it hard just to punish us.
	It is a difficult process because that's just how spiritual dynamics work.
	We're physical beings, you know, 90% of the time, and once in a while our spirit Kind of wakes up and looks around and sees things.
	But it's not that the Lord makes things difficult to make them difficult.
	They are difficult.
	And He has given us an opportunity to walk with Him in relationship.
	And He will give us the keys.
	And He'll explain how it works.
	And He'll show us the path.
	He'll show us the order.
	He will reveal The problems, the stumbling stones, he'll reveal our destiny, he'll reveal his plans for business, but it all comes through relationship.
	If you're willing to do it yourself, he'll let you do it yourself until you, you know, run out off the road.
	And you're gonna be, Oh, Lord, please fix this, you know, and you've been sort of out of relationship for the last 10 years.
	Well, he wants you to be in relationship all the time.
	And that's, that's his issue.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Go ahead.
	You know, John Wimber, we were talking about John Wimber, when I read his book, Power Healing and Power Evangelism, he said something, and you know when you read something and God's trying to get a hold of you?
	I read this statement that God says to John Wimber, and it hits me so hard, and I realized I'd entered into a transformative encounter.
	He said to him, John, I've seen your ministry, how'd you like to see mine?
	And when he said that, Dave, you've had these encounters.
	The Spirit of the Lord came over me and he said, so what do you want, Brian?
	Do you want your ministry?
	Because your ministry isn't going to produce very much.
	That's a lot of the problem I have with what's going on right now on the planet.
	I want people doing my ministry, not what you think my ministry is.
	And I, uh, okay.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	And so, you know, if you're going to get into Jesus's ministry, He plans on making you an incredibly powerful person that moves in authority on this planet, but everyone's not going to be tickled or think that's cute because there's all this kind of stuff that's trying to resist Jesus's ministry.
	We'll talk about that at another point.
	We're just trying to work through this, but I really want to encourage you.
	He creates the same type of disciples.
	There's not super apostles and then the rest of us that stink at this.
	What is a Christian?
	A Christian is just like Jesus.
	And so we really have to wrestle with that.
	Jesus really wants us to be like Him on this planet.
	So getting back to your outline, you were talking about the different ways, the different approaches to prayer, the different ways that we get people healed.
	I, because I'm in the, you know, I was in the ambulance for many years and when I see people healed, it's still grocery stores, restaurants, you know, it's not in a church setting.
	There isn't a worship team, you know, there it's, it's, it's a different setting.
	So I tend to kind of try to fly under the radar.
	Um, and I, and I use, um, uh, an approach where I just, I strike up a conversation with someone like Brian said, Hey, I notice you've got, you know, that immobilizer on your foot, your shoulder, sir.
	It looks like it's painful.
	A little bit of conversation.
	And then I ask him, would you like to be healed?
	And they either say yes or no.
	95% of the time they say yes.
	Yep.
	Yep.
	And I, then I will, um, again, invite the Lord's presence, Lord, bring your presence for healing.
	And then, um, If it's a soft tissue injury, sprain, rotator cuff, carpal tunnel, things of that nature, blown out knee, I will then generally exercise authority.
	So an exercise of authority is just commanding things, commanding spirits of pain to leave.
	You would be surprised how many people have chronic pain like fibromyalgia.
	It's just a spirit of pain and nothing more.
	You command that spirit of pain to leave, it'll go.
	If you're walking in faith, and you're exercising your authority, you can command those spirits of pain to go, and they'll go.
	You know, command new ligaments, new tendons, new bones, whatever the rotator cuff, meniscus, whatever it is, blown out, you know, bone spur, I command you to leave.
	Alright?
	That's one method of healing, but that's not the only one.
	Alright?
	That's using authority.
	Jesus, a lot of times, would go to someone and say, oh, you're paralyzed.
	That's awesome.
	Stand up.
	Like, wait a minute.
	Don't you know I'm paralyzed?
	I can't stand up.
	All right.
	I want to talk a little bit about faith here, because we exercise authority through faith.
	We release power through faith.
	Faith is what What is our end of the deal?
	The Lord has power.
	And it's released when we demonstrate faith.
	Why didn't the disciples cast out that demon out of that kid?
	He said, because of your unbelief.
	All right.
	Now, I'm going to talk a little, just want to really quickly talk about faith.
	I see a lot of people on social media who haven't been healed.
	And they say, but I have faith.
	I have great faith.
	I believe in God.
	Okay.
	That's fine.
	You believe in God.
	You believe Jesus is the Messiah.
	We all have things that we believe.
	But Jesus wasn't talking about that kind of faith when he was talking to the disciples about why they didn't heal this child.
	The question is, what is the object of your faith?
	What are you believing in?
	All right.
	Now, let me give you an example.
	If you have a favorite football team, basketball team, baseball team, whatever, and you cheer your team on, and they're going up in the season championship game, and you have a lot of confidence because you've been watching them, and it's lights out.
	They're just destroying the competition.
	They go into the last game, and it's a playoff game, And you have a lot of faith, confidence, that they're going to win.
	Now, at halftime, they're down by 35 points.
	They have just sucked.
	And they're down by 35 points at halftime.
	Your confidence, your faith, that they're going to win is not as strong.
	You now have more doubt.
	I'm talking about a specific thing in which you have faith.
	In the case of the disciples, it wasn't that the disciples didn't believe in God.
	It wasn't that they didn't believe in Jesus.
	They were walking with Him.
	It was that they weren't sure how to get this deal.
	They had uncertainty and they had doubt about getting this kid healed.
	Now, with respect to Jesus healing this paralytic, and The woman who came up behind Jesus grabbed the hem of his garment.
	She had a flow of blood for 12 years, and she said, I know.
	I have confidence.
	If I can grab the hem of his garment, I'm going to be healed.
	I just know that.
	And she grabbed the hem of his garment.
	Power was released, and she was healed.
	Her faith healed her.
	Her confidence.
	She had confidence that in that particular thing.
	It wasn't confidence in God.
	It wasn't faith in Jesus.
	She said, I know.
	If I grab his garment, I'm going to be healed.
	I know it, absolutely, without question.
	I know if I do this, I'm going to be healed.
	Now, why did she do that?
	She did that because Jesus was going around the villages, healing people by the thousands.
	And everyone knew, there's the healer!
	Let's go grab onto his garment, right?
	And when he came over to the villages, the Bible says, as many as touched the hem of his garment, they were all healed.
	They had faith.
	The paralytic, when he's sitting there on that bed, Jesus comes in, and the scribes are there, and they're talking crap about Jesus, as usual.
	And the paralytic knew who he was.
	The paralytic's like, I know you!
	When Bartimaeus was sitting on the road, he says, Son of David, have mercy on me.
	I'm blind Bartimaeus.
	Bartimaeus knew who he was.
	Bartimaeus knew.
	The fame of Jesus and his healing ministry filled that area, and everyone knew he was the healer, which is why everyone had faith that if they would minister, if he would touch me, I know I'm going to be healed.
	So when Jesus told that paralytic, stand up, the paralytic said, oh, I guess this is how he's going to heal me.
	I'm going to stand up.
	And he stood up, and because he had faith He knew Jesus was the healer.
	He had faith, because he knew all the testimonies.
	He said to himself, OK, well, this is how the Lord's going to heal me.
	I'm going to get up.
	Even though I'm crippled, I'm going to try to stand up.
	And his exercise of faith, the power, Luke's Gospel says, the power to heal was there in the room.
	Boom!
	He got healed and he stood up.
	OK?
	That is how faith works in healing and g that's another model where jesus said stand up right and the guy stood up if he doesn't stand up he's not going to be healed he had to stand up and that process of standing up healed him all right brian go ahead i just wanted to no no do you want me to enter in that with yeah jump on jump on board all right so um when you tell so if you're if you're going to be involved in the healing ministry
	everyone's going to ask you how do you get more faith really they're going to And the disciples ask Jesus the same question.
	How do I get more faith?
	The best story to describe how faith works is when Jesus went to the Mount of Transfiguration, comes down, the disciples cannot drive out a demon.
	He rebukes them, and when he rebukes them, he tells them a specific thing.
	Now remember, they've been already driving out demons now that they can't.
	Now, I'm not trying to do this to confuse everybody, but in the original language, the way that the Greek term is used, he's telling them, your trust is in your reputation or in your method, not the Holy Spirit.
	And so the reason that they cannot drive out that is they've had a reputation of being a healing minister and they trust themselves.
	When I say this, I'm going to do it again.
	I'm going to irritate a bunch of people.
	The disciples had the same problem that we do.
	We get into not depending on the Holy Spirit, and the minute we do that, we pull ourselves out of Biblical faith, and we trust methods, people's reputations, and only God can heal people.
	So, you were saved because God gave you faith.
	There's a gift of faith.
	The only place it tells you to have faith in your head is it's one of the elementary doctrines in Hebrew chapter 6, and that's the only place the Greek term is used, think God's thoughts after Him.
	When Jesus was turning to disciples, He was teaching them how to move in the gift of faith, not trusting methods.
	And when we say that to people, that means that faith comes from where?
	Faith comes by hearing.
	Hearing rhemas from God.
	And so you got saved by God giving you rhemas.
	You move in the ministry by getting rhemas.
	You function and deliver.
	All of it comes by dependency on the Holy Spirit.
	Now can you tell why I'm so intense on you?
	You've got to depend on the presence of the Holy Spirit.
	Speaking of the gift of faith, those of you who are following me on Telegram, you saw the testimony of Margaret a couple of days ago.
	Oh my gosh, Margaret is this wonderful Irish woman who had an anal fistula.
	And it was causing problems for her for years.
	And she had been reading the testimonies on my Telegram page.
	About people praying for themselves to be healed.
	Now, we're not talking about, you know, I healed myself.
	We're talking about, instead of me praying for someone else to be healed, people kept asking me, can I pray for myself to be healed or does somebody else have to do it?
	I said, no, you can pray for yourself to be healed.
	Brian did it, you know, Lord, bring your presence, right?
	So I had been sharing stories of people who had prayed for themselves and they were healed.
	Margaret had been reading these testimonies, and one day she got a download of Faith from the Holy Spirit.
	You read her testimony.
	She said, All of a sudden I was overcome with this insane confidence, this steel will, like I suddenly knew this was a demon, and I commanded that demon, Get out of me now, you demon from hell!
	And she just had this enormous amount of faith, And the demon left her and she was healed.
	All of the sores and the disgusting things that she had to put up with for years, completely gone.
	But it was because she had a gift of faith.
	The Holy Spirit suddenly quickened her faith.
	She had supernatural faith that she could not, in her own mind, she couldn't conjure up that kind of faith.
	Holy Spirit gave it to her, boom, and she got rid of the demon and she was healed.
	Yeah, we're at the place now, even though I'm going through all this, we're at the place now where this is, this is the thing that the body of Christ has lacked for years.
	We don't teach people how to recognize encounters, how to recognize how God wants to do stuff.
	And so what we, David, here we go again.
	We've got people running around with really good methods on how to minister absent the presence of the Holy Spirit.
	And then we go, well, why doesn't that work?
	Because God's the only one that can heal.
	And so We have to have these models dependent on the Holy Spirit, not absent of the Holy Spirit.
	And the disciples did exactly what we do.
	We learn a model, we get a reputation, and then we say, I can heal anybody.
	I'm just so good at this.
	And the minute you do that, you come crashing down.
	God says, okay, until you learn to stop doing that, you're going to just watch this fail for a while.
	I'm sure you've gone through scenes like that.
	I've prayed for people, boom, boom, boom, everyone's getting healed.
	And then I think, wow, I'm just the man.
	And then God's like, all right, let's see how you can do without my presence.
	And then I do it and everyone's not getting healed.
	I'm like, what's going on?
	And then the Lord says, well, are you ready to do it again?
	And I'm like, oh, I forgot.
	I'd like to say I've never had that happen, but it's probably happened a few times.
	Well, actually, you know, I was, like I said, I was going back over some of your videos, some of your teaching.
	By the way, Brian, he's one of the few people I know who still has a YouTube channel.
	Plumbline is the name of their ministry.
	They have a YouTube channel.
	They have a lot of good videos, training and equipping on there, if you need more information.
	They still do have a YouTube channel.
	I don't, but he does.
	And what I was going to say is, every time I go back and listen to one of your messages where you're teaching, You know, on the healing ministry or prophecy, you always go back to, you have to be in step with the Holy Spirit.
	You have to let God do what He wants to do, Holy Spirit bring your presence, and let Him lead and you follow.
	It's a dance.
	Yeah.
	But, you know, Jesus kind of told us this.
	It's just that when He was talking to the people of His day, they knew exactly what He was talking about.
	2000 years later, we're looking at, like, I don't know what he's trying to tell me here.
	When he said to the disciples, hey, if you're going to walk with me, you've got to pick up your cross daily.
	And everyone's like, well, what does he mean by when he says that?
	He's saying you have to die to yourself and you have to prefer another person's Leading, guiding, will.
	And he's actually saying, do this, you'll be liberated into life.
	And we look at that, Jesus is saying, is Jesus trying to tell me I have to suffer?
	No, he's saying, if you want to step into the kingdom, stop depending on yourself and let the Lord do this stuff.
	And then you'll begin to walk in the reality, the zoe life of the kingdom.
	And then all of a sudden you realize, This is really easy to do when I become intentionally dependent on the presence of the Lord.
	Yep.
	Yeah, because when you become dependent on the presence of the Lord, your battles are not actually your battles.
	And, you know, I've been attacked by the Deep State pretty hard over the last three or four years.
	I mean, they shut down my Facebook page, YouTube channel, Twitter, They cancelled all five of our PayPal accounts, Patreon, let's see, Pop Money, Payoneer, Venmo, Cash App, every single payment gateway that I've had access to, they have cancelled.
	Okay, they've come after me pretty hard.
	But the Lord warned me ahead of time all this stuff was going to happen.
	And He just kept reminding me, look, I'll take care of this.
	If you let this be my battle, I will take care of it.
	So I have just rested and trusted that the Holy Spirit is going to take care of these things, that He is going to work this thing out.
	I'm not attacking these people.
	I'm not taking them to court.
	I'm not, you know, doing what I would normally do to address these issues.
	I'm really trying to leave it in the hands of the Lord.
	And He has just done magnificently in helping me stay ahead of these attacks.
	Warned me what's coming ahead of time, given me alternatives, given me options, supported us financially through all the people who support us through other payment methods.
	I mean, we're back to taking paper checks from people pretty much.
	Other than GiveSendGo just popped up the other day, and we started a GiveSendGo account.
	And we've been able to receive support there.
	But it's, you know, it's we've I've gone through a lot of struggles, a lot of battles, and I'm surprised at how much I've been able to sail through it.
	Because I really like, you know, Lord, this is your gig.
	You're the one who got me into this.
	Your battles are not mine.
	And he's been very faithful to lead.
	Can I encourage you at that level?
	Yeah.
	I've had the government go after me twice.
	And I'm like, I'm just trying to be faithful and love on people.
	Why am I getting this stuff?
	And one of them was an intentional attack by the IRS for over five years.
	They threatened me.
	I mean, it was just a lot of fun.
	And in the middle of all that, I first asked, well, what's the purpose of this?
	And it's kind of funny.
	As you grow in authority, The enemy only has so many tools, and there are actually levels of attack that show you you're growing in authority.
	And when it gets to a political arena, you're now moving in the type of authority that Jesus was, because there wouldn't be that kind of societal attack if it wasn't challenging principalities and powers and stuff like that.
	Right, and you're battling the political sphere now.
	Yeah, and the enemy uses politicians and religion to try to stop the ministry of Jesus.
	And Jesus even said to these guys, you guys really do not have authority over me.
	I know you think you do, but you don't really have authority.
	But, you know, you and I are walking through life and we're going, I'm just trying to love on people and do all this stuff.
	But you're learning the same thing Jesus is trying to show you.
	A kingdom citizen.
	has more authority than all these people do, but you don't learn your authority until you have to exercise it.
	And you have to learn to exercise it in all these arenas, so that you get a form of assurance that you're part of an unshakable kingdom, and nothing can take you out of what God has created you to do, no matter how many times you're threatened, from whatever level it is.
	And so, you have to learn that.
	It's interesting what you said that the enemy only has so many tricks in his bag that he can use, you know, paraphrasing.
	That's what I found.
	I found that as I have stepped out into the political realm, into media, being part of the new media, and doing news and current events, reporting, I've been attacked by Every mainstream media, CNN, Washington Post, New York Times, Newsweek, they've all written articles and things attacking me.
	And that's fine.
	The funny thing is that the attacks that they bring against me are pretty predictable.
	And it's always the same, like three or four kinds of attacks.
	And once you see that attack, and once you say, Okay, Lord, what are you going to do about this?
	The Holy Spirit will say, Don't worry, I've got this taken care of.
	I want you to do this.
	And I'm like, okay, that'll work.
	And he'll give you a solution.
	And then they'll come back six months later and attack you with the same thing.
	And I'll be like, Lord, are we doing the same thing?
	He's like, yep, same thing.
	It's their same attacks.
	Oh my God, they've got a very limited number of tools they can use.
	And threats, intimidation, deplatforming, smearing, slandering, that sort of thing.
	Because here's, Here's what the Lord showed me.
	He said, what they really want to do with you, Dave, is they want to put you in jail.
	You know, they want you to be one of those guys that's in jail for the January 6th thing, but you didn't go there.
	And they're looking for a way to indict you, and they want to take you down.
	I had a couple of friends who've had dreams about the FBI looking for ways to find incriminating evidence on me and indict me, and they can't find anything.
	And the Holy Spirit's like, they're never going to find anything on you because you don't have anything for them to go after.
	So they have to resort to smears and slanders and threats and intimidation.
	And you know, that's the same thing with you.
	You know, the IRS thing.
	Well, how are they going to attack you?
	They can't.
	But you know, if you have a nonprofit, they can audit you and make you jump through a bunch of hoops to make your life miserable, but that's all they can do.
	Yep.
	Yep.
	And this gets down to We've really gotten off topic.
	We have!
	When Jesus was raised from the dead, and he's now doing the Great Commission, he's not the suffering servant anymore.
	He's the king of the universe, and he says, Go, disciple nations.
	So he's actually telling the Church, You're the leaders of the nations.
	All these other guys are illegal representatives.
	You're to follow my kingship.
	And I'm going to rule in the midst of these people, and I'm going to use you guys to do it.
	I want to heal people, I want to do all this other stuff, but in recent years, I've had more interaction with political leaders coming to meetings, asking me questions, having me minister to them, all this other stuff.
	A faithful disciple really moves up the ranks of authority in the kingdom.
	But we don't ever talk about this stuff.
	So everyone's like, I just feel like I'm out there on my own.
	And you're not.
	There's this movement going on that the kingdom is building constantly, and most people just don't recognize it.
	And so they're just like, wow, we're defeated.
	And really, we're not.
	And I'm going to continue taking this off topic.
	I think this is something the Lord wants us to discuss.
	The reason why I set aside writing books on supernatural things, emotional healing, deliverance, I've got all these books I want to write and I am writing them now because I've got a break.
	But I took a break for three years from publishing books because the Lord just kept on hammering me on this issue of politics and current events.
	I want you to follow Trump.
	I want you to watch what I'm doing through him.
	I'm going to, essentially, one of the very first dreams God gave me was August of 2016.
	I had a series of dreams in August of 2016, before the election.
	And the Lord showed me a number of things he was potentially going to do if Trump was elected.
	And one of them was, just as a crazy experience, where I stepped into this Dimension on earth where there was no crime.
	There was no homelessness.
	There was no poverty.
	There was no corruption.
	It was like living in heaven on earth.
	And in this experience that I had, it came after I decided to vote for Trump.
	Like in the dream, People were given a choice, vote for Trump or don't vote for Trump, and I decided to vote for Trump, even though I wasn't a fan of Trump.
	I was actually a Ted Cruz guy back then.
	But in this dream, I decided to vote for Trump, and boom, I went into this experience where it was literally like living in the perfect kingdom of God here on Earth.
	Now, right after that, I had another dream where Trump was taking all kinds of information about politicians and high-ranking people in society and the powerful and mighty and he was making it all public and he was exposing corruption, right?
	And I've had many, a lot of dreams about Trump and exposure of corruption since then and what the Lord kept showing me is I am going to destroy these corrupt institutions and I'm going to build my righteous kingdom in place of it once it's been eradicated Removed, I'm going to do a new work.
	And so one of the reasons why I'm so optimistic about the future is because the Lord just keeps on hammering me on this issue.
	I'm going to erase all this junk.
	And I need people like you to get out of the, you know, get out of the building on Sunday and go out into the community and let people know what I'm going to be doing.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	That's the kingdom.
	If Jesus actually has all authority in heaven and earth, That means he's in control of all this stuff, and when you announce this stuff, what it's doing, it's putting principalities on, they're being told, you have lost this battle, and they do not want to hear that stuff.
	Over the last year, the Lord has been having a conversation with me about him being a king, and what it means for him to rule as king.
	And guess what, guys?
	The story is, he's going to rule in the midst of his enemies until he's decimated all of them.
	That's actively going on right now.
	You get to enjoy it by being in the middle of it, and you get to learn your authority.
	I mean, this is so powerful for me to think.
	Meeting Jesus means everything that everyone's afraid of, Jesus says, you have authority over that.
	You get to actually decide these things.
	You get to raise the biggest fear that people have is death, when Jesus says, you have authority over that.
	I mean, look at the level of authority Jesus has handed the body of Christ in.
	We're trying to have potlucks and vacations instead of going into the real world and just releasing this stuff.
	Yep.
	And you know, the funny thing is, you can tell in a battle who has the upper hand by the tactics that are being employed by both sides.
	So this corrupt societal system that we've got that has just a lot of there's corruption in the media, there's corruption in Hollywood, it's in Silicon Valley, it's in government, it's in like every area of society has been just polluted with corruption.
	And when Silicon Valley starts to take drastic measures to censor people like us, that is a big tell that they're in trouble.
	Because they're sort of burning the wood in their house to keep warm.
	At that point, they make money and they spread their propaganda and their influence through followers.
	And when they start banning tens of millions of people from their platforms, and censoring and shutting everybody down, and trying to keep us from talking about the corruption, that tells you they're terrified.
	Because We're winning.
	We're exposing the corruption, and they're terrified of us.
	That's right.
	We're in our best days right now.
	I have been waiting for more than 20 years to see today.
	So I go into churches, and everyone's like, why are you so happy?
	And I'm like, I've been waiting my whole life for this season.
	I mean, I am so excited for what's going on right now.
	Yeah.
	It's difficult.
	But look, we're at war!
	We're at war.
	And look, I know, I'm not insensitive to the fact that this, you know, I have a lot of friends and followers who are really angry about this COVID thing and the forced vaccinations and the vaccine mandates and all this other stuff.
	And they're all upset because they have friends that have died, friends that are on ventilators, on life support, in the ICU.
	Look, I get it.
	I did critical care transport for many years and I have been in the trenches and I see the suffering and I know it's real and I am I feel deeply I feel your pain That you have to sit there and watch this stuff happen that these corrupt institutions are Literally killing people.
	Okay, but you have to understand something We are at war and if anything tells you we're at war, that's what tells you we're at war There are people dying, and it's unfortunate, but we're at war.
	It's a battle.
	And Brian and I are trying to give you the equipping that you need to be a more effective soldier in this war.
	Okay?
	You can go into an ICU with someone who's on a ventilator, and you can, you know, get them healed, release the Holy Spirit, go and heal that person, And they can walk out of that ICU.
	Look, we have a testimony of a friend who got COVID and he was very, very sick.
	He was this close.
	Well, no, actually he was intubated.
	He was a train wreck.
	He developed a pneumothorax.
	His lung collapsed.
	They put in a chest tube.
	They put him on a vent and he was going downhill very quickly.
	And we have a couple of new Christians.
	They've been, they're baby Christians.
	One of them has been, A believer for less than a year.
	The other one has only been a believer for a few weeks.
	They called Denise in a panic because this woman's husband is in the ICU, on a vent, chest tube.
	He's knocking on death's door.
	Denise explained to them how to go into that room and pray over him and release power and command his body to be healed.
	Wife went in there, put her hands on his chest and commanded him to be healed.
	And a couple of days later, he walked out of the hospital.
	The next morning, they took out the chest tube, they took him off the vent, and he is recovering at home right now.
	It was a miracle.
	And the doctors said, we don't know.
	We've never seen anyone recover from this kind of thing that fast.
	Okay, so Brian and I are giving you training and equipping so that you can do that kind of stuff.
	People don't have to die.
	You know, Jesus gave us, like Brian said, He gave us authority over the grave.
	Like it or not, that's your authority.
	Yeah.
	So fun.
	So do you want me to keep going on?
	Keep going.
	Keep going.
	Yeah, you're preaching good when I'm not interrupting you.
	All right, so no, no, I'm fine with that.
	So we're talking about what is effective prayer.
	I said, well, now we need to have a discussion.
	What is effective prayer?
	And so what we're going to do is we're going to now look at three different models of effective prayer.
	So the first one is petition.
	You actually see Jesus doing this.
	Now, this is the one that everybody does when Jesus wants to do some other sometime, but this is effective.
	And this is the one.
	So Jesus is praying for a person that's mute.
	And they can't speak.
	And it says that he looks towards heaven and prays.
	And then the guy gets healed.
	So what that is, that's a model of saying, Hey Lord, do you want to do this?
	Like, would you do this?
	That's a form of petition.
	You're just asking God to do it.
	You're not speaking to it or anything else like that.
	You're just doing that.
	That works.
	If that's how God leads you to do it, that's one form of effective prayer.
	Now, when we mean effective, I want to be very technical, maybe, and just kind of put the points together.
	Effective prayer means, how does God want me to do this?
	So, I'm joining Him in this.
	He wants me to just ask Him.
	So, sometimes I'm praying for people.
	They have a condition.
	I've prayed for them.
	A lot of times, I wait on the Lord and I say, are you going to heal this person?
	What are you going to do?
	God will come back and give me an assurance, or he'll tell me, yeah, I'm healing him, you're done here, and I'll just tell him, thank you for letting me pray for you, I'll see you, and then inevitably they'll come back around and they'll tell me, oh, I got healed.
	It wasn't then, it was a couple days later.
	So you're wanting to realize that there is a place, but when you do petition, You're not just throwing things up in the air.
	You're dialoguing with the Lord, and He's communicating with you, this is how I want to do it.
	So let me interrupt you here.
	If you are in the middle of a petition, where you're saying, Lord, I want you to heal this person, or Lord, would you please heal this person?
	If you're in that dialogue with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit might say, lay your hand on their chest.
	Then you go, okay.
	I'm going to do that.
	And the Lord says, now I want you to say this, or I want you to do this, right?
	That's where it's not wrong to start with a petition, but you need to follow up with that and say, OK, Lord, what are we doing here?
	Yeah, that's right.
	That's right.
	And so the next form of prayer.
	Now, when I say this, this starts a whole group of people going, I don't know what in the world he's talking about.
	So I'll try to be really simple when I say it.
	You get what are called prayers There is a two-way dialogue.
	So sometimes I walk into a situation, just like Dave just mentioned, and I'm starting to pray for a person and I say, well, what do you want me to do here?
	And the Lord says, command the pain to leave.
	Well, that's a prayer from God into the situation.
	So it could either be a confession or a proclamation.
	I turn it into it's a prophetic word.
	So when I teach prophetic classes, we learn how to take the prophetic and we bring that into healing ministry.
	I don't know if you've ever tried this, but sometimes I just ask God, okay, so they have this condition.
	Give me a word and God will say, well, prophesy to the foot.
	And you know, if you don't understand this, it's not making sense.
	But what he's telling you is, I'm going to use your mouth to release authority and power.
	So I was at a training and one of the gentlemen that was learning to do it, this guy from Africa had this.
	There was a problem with his foot for a decade where it was swollen all the time, and he did everything he could, and he couldn't deal with what the problem was.
	The guy gets this prophetic word, just prophesied that the swelling will leave.
	Well, that sounds like a command, which it is, but that's what prophetic words are.
	He does it, and the guy just kind of sits down and pulls his shoe off and throws his sock off, and he goes, look!
	And he's like, what?
	And he goes, well, you prayed for my foot, the swelling's gone.
	So immediately the Lord just did it by him just proclaiming it or prophesying it.
	So people are like, well, can we say things before they happen?
	Well, a lot of this is what that is.
	You're standing in a place of assurance and then you're speaking to things.
	The thing has to change by you speaking to it.
	So you have to realize God's going to have you speak to things that are not changed And it's the force of you speaking God's Word that will change the situation.
	All right, so let me give you an example of this.
	First time I ever saw tumors healed.
	That's exactly what the Lord did.
	This is 10 years ago.
	I was on Facebook, and I received a prayer request on Facebook for a woman who had a thyroid tumor, and she was going in for a biopsy the following day.
	And I said, OK, I'm going to pray.
	I closed my eyes.
	And the Lord showed me a throne.
	All right.
	I was like, OK, well, what does that mean?
	I've never seen a throne before.
	And he said, I want you to make a declaration.
	You're a king.
	You see a throne.
	You're seated with me in heavenly places.
	We have authority.
	He said, I want you to make a declaration that the tumor is going to go away.
	I was like, oh, that'll be fun.
	So I just said, I declare by the authority, what did I say?
	Where I'm seated with you in heavenly places, I declare that they're going to take her into the procedure and they're not going to find a tumor.
	I just declared that she would not have a tumor when they did the biopsy the next day.
	They took her into the procedure room.
	The doctor is there.
	They're feeling around.
	They're like, okay, where's the tumor?
	They're looking at the scans.
	They're looking at her.
	They go back over.
	They, they're looking at the test.
	They go back over her and like, um, I don't know how to tell you this, but, uh, your, your tumor's gone.
	We can't, we can't biopsy it cause we can't find it.
	Right.
	That same day I got another prayer request for a woman who had a brain tumor.
	She was going in for surgery the following day.
	Okay.
	So, uh, I said, okay, I'll pray.
	I just, Closed my eyes again and I saw the throne.
	And I was like, oh, I know what this means.
	I said, I declare that when they take her into surgery, they're not going to find a tumor.
	All right.
	They took her into surgery the next day.
	They took her skull.
	They opened her up.
	The tumor was gone.
	That is the easiest healing in the world because I didn't do anything.
	I just made a declaration.
	But it was what the Lord showed me.
	He said, when I see a throne, right, and this often happens with tumors, not all the time, but often, when I ask the Lord, what do you want me to do?
	I'll see a throne, and I'm like, okay, I just make a declaration.
	Right?
	So that's sort of an example of what you're talking about.
	Yeah, and the good thing, I'm glad the way you described you saw a throne.
	See, this is what's funny about doing ministry with the Lord.
	He doesn't just give you words, he describes identity in the midst of it.
	So he's actually telling you, this is your true position.
	So we would see that actually in scripture, that men and women that are created in the image of God are image bearers.
	And he tells you, especially people that know the Lord Jesus Christ, you're kings and priests of his.
	And so if he says you're to rule, you have to have some level of authority, but you don't discover it until you're in the trenches having to learn to produce it.
	And then your mind goes through a transformation.
	Oh, I actually do have authority.
	I should actually challenge these things instead of accepting these things because I'm in control of this situation according to what the Lord says I am in Him.
	And so you just have to go through life to figure out that stuff.
	But that's a great story.
	Great story.
	And for people that are hearing Dave tell that story, that's the cool part about walking with the Lord, is your mind doesn't believe the things Scripture says, so God takes you into situations.
	You exercise it, and then you go through not only the person getting better, but you go through a renewal process where you start getting a glimpse of your true identity.
	And then what it's supposed to do is it's supposed to filter through all of you, and you're supposed to take it into every situation and go, now, wait a minute.
	If I have authority over disease, I have authority over this, and I have authority over that, and I need to quit just thinking I'm a victim in the kingdom of darkness and I'm going to I'm in the kingdom of God.
	I'm a victor in these situations.
	I was in the ambulance one day and I was in the middle of writing a book.
	And I carry this Panasonic Toughbook laptop with me everywhere I go.
	I was always writing articles and chapters on books on my Panasonic Toughbook.
	And I just love that laptop because you could literally We had one that got ran over by an ambulance in our parking lot at our station, and I opened that thing up, and it worked fine.
	Nothing was wrong with it.
	Okay, they have a titanium frame, and they're military-grade.
	Anyway, I had had this laptop for many years.
	Went to the hospital, and I was between calls, and I plugged it into the... I turned it on, plugged it in, and it wasn't working.
	And it had been working an hour before.
	Turned it on.
	Nothing.
	Diodes.
	Dead.
	Plugged it into the wall.
	No power.
	I went to another outlet.
	Plugged it in.
	No power.
	Wouldn't work.
	I went to another room.
	Found another outlet.
	And it wouldn't turn on.
	I went back out to the ambulance.
	We had the same type of computer that we use for work that I would use for writing.
	It's a Panasonic Toughbook.
	So I took the power cord from the one that was working.
	The power cord was working.
	I knew it worked.
	And I plugged it into my laptop, and I tried to power it up, and it was dead.
	That computer was deader than dead.
	All right?
	And I was like, oh, you've got to be kidding me.
	I don't want to have to buy another laptop and transfer the files and all this other nonsense.
	Huge hassle.
	And then I kind of had a sense of panic for a moment.
	And the Holy Spirit said, well, why don't you pray over it?
	And I was like, what?
	He said, just pray over it.
	Like, what, you think I can't do that?
	And I'm like, um, all right, I'll give it a try.
	So I put the computer on the floor of the ambulance, put my hand on it, and I said, what do you want me to say?
	And he said, just declare that it's going to come back to life.
	And I said, okay, I declare this computer is going to come back to life.
	I speak life to it.
	I command you to work, angels, fix all the broken stuff in there, you know, that kind of sort of thing.
	And then I went and I plugged it into the outlet, and turned it on, and it was working fine.
	Right?
	I resurrected a dead laptop computer. - That's the level. - That's the kind of authority that we have.
	And that authority works over just about anything you can think of.
	It's not just healing people.
	- Yeah, and so when I go hang out with people, the very thing that Dave just shared, I hear these things just constantly.
	I'm just like, I wonder if everyone's aware of just how much God is involved in everything.
	And I've come to realize we're not, because what we do as a culture, we talk about everything that's wrong, we've never told enough God stories, so it seems like when we get together, we think, well, we're just defeated.
	I always kept trying to figure out, Dave actually did this, and I watched him do it, and I'm like, thank the Lord someone did this.
	a region would keep track of everyone that gets saved, everyone that gets a prayer answered, everyone that gets healed, and stuff like that, you would see a constant involvement of the kingdom of God and culture to the point where the church would be so encouraged that they'd just think, this is the most powerful force in the universe, which it actually is.
	When we get together, all we talk about is carpeting and building buildings and having potlucks and so everyone just thinks God must not be doing anything That's the furthest thing from the truth.
	God is always working.
	Didn't you recently see a miracle healing up in Minnesota?
	Yeah.
	Want to tell a story?
	Or not?
	Or do you want to continue on your model?
	Well, just during the whole lockdown and all that other stuff, I was doing meetings and We always do a thing, which I'm going to get to, it's called a clinic time, where we model ministry.
	And so, we were in a clinic time, and this lady, we started with a word of knowledge God shared.
	Someone has hip pain, so I have him stand.
	So this lady stands, I have hip pain.
	And this is where everyone was still afraid to be around each other, so we always had to stand six feet apart, which, try to figure that out.
	We believe God heals, but we can't.
	So I've said, okay, so what we're going to do is we're going to invite the presence of the Lord, our soul, Holy Spirit, come.
	We're watching her, and I'm talking with her.
	I'm saying, for the benefit of everyone here, tell us what you're experiencing right now.
	And she says, well, this is really unusual.
	I can sense the power and the presence of the Lord, but it's not like just a weight on me.
	It's like a tornado is circling in my chest cavity.
	And we're like, well, what do you think is going on?
	And she's like, I don't know.
	I've never experienced the power of God like this before.
	And while I'm sitting there just watching it, thank you Lord, increase your power, that kind of stuff, she's going, this is really interesting.
	I have 19 conditions that I'm not telling anybody about, and the Lord's healing them right now.
	I can sense the healing virtue of Jesus going into every one of these organs in my body and resolving it.
	And then she goes, hey, I need to sit down for a second.
	We're like, oh, okay.
	Why?
	She goes, I'm being overwhelmed by the presence of the Lord.
	And she sat there, For literally the rest of the time, we moved from her to someone else.
	The Manifest Presence of the Lord sat on her for, I think, for 24 hours and healed her of 19 different things.
	It was so stunning.
	And I've seen the Lord do all kinds of healing.
	That was so stunning to me.
	I was just like, that was just unbelievable what God did.
	Wow, that is, that's crazy.
	That is some crazy stuff right there.
	I think we're, the water level's going up, and so we're heading into creative miracle time now.
	And so, that's what I'm expecting every time we do this.
	There should be some creative miracles going on here, so.
	Yeah.
	So, getting back to the model and the different types of prayer.
	Yeah.
	So we did the petition, the confession, the declaration.
	Now after we finish that, this is where This is where the model usually breaks down after this.
	If you're doing it with a person, this is where you need to begin to have a conversation with them.
	What are you experiencing?
	So people are not used to the phenomenon of the Holy Spirit manifesting His presence, and so they have these things happening to them, and they don't have language for it, they don't know how to connect with it, and our job is to help them have a God encounter, which means God is ministering to them, We need to help them recognize it.
	So how do you help people recognize it?
	There is in Scripture a distinction between the Lord being everywhere at all times and the manifest presence of God being there.
	It's not only described in Scripture.
	We've been calling it things like the glory of God, the manifest presence of God.
	But if you ask most people, if God showed himself to you, what do you think would happen?
	Most people are just like, I have no idea.
	And so We've had constant God-encounters, and what God has done is He's given us signs of His presence that are so consistent that you can help every generation recognize God-encounters.
	And so they would be things like this.
	People feel joy—that would be an internal thing.
	They feel heat.
	They feel power.
	They feel like electricity going through their body.
	They sense a sense of laughter coming over them.
	They feel a weight resting on them.
	And all those are manifestations of God's presence, and it's indicating he's doing something.
	And so when you're helping people, you're trying to help them, like, recognize, well, God's ministering to you, so let's stay with this until he lifts off or the healing's done.
	Do we just want to get home, you know, and get dinner and, you know, get back to our day when the Holy Spirit's like, hang on, hang on, I got some stuff I'm doing here.
	And so this means that you and I have been trained by McDonald's to go through the healing ministry like McDonald's.
	We order it, we expect it.
	But there's a thing Where the Lord actually is ministering to people, and you said this already, that when God's presence comes, God is thinking about wholeness.
	We're thinking about the issue.
	And so when God's presence comes, as long as He's on them, we want to stay in step with that and bless it.
	Yes, Lord, increase that.
	Release your power.
	Do that kind of stuff.
	And help the person stop being afraid.
	Okay, this is normal.
	This is what God does.
	Just be at peace.
	And you're, in a sense, if I could say it correctly, You're facilitating them to receive from the Lord so that it connects.
	They need to know, just experience the Spirit of the Lord.
	Well, when I'm in the ambulance, if I'm going to do a cardioversion on somebody, I'm going to put big electrodes on their chest and then shock them so that their heart goes back into a normal rhythm.
	I'm going to sort of tell them, OK, we're going to do something here and it's going to feel uncomfortable.
	But it's necessary.
	You don't do something like that without telling the person what's going on.
	So what you're saying is, help the person understand the experience that they're having because it might freak them out a little bit.
	Yeah.
	Just to show you how fun this is, and I always do this, if people that are in Minnesota hear me say this, you've heard me say this before, but the funnest group I liked praying with were Lutherans.
	Isn't that funny to say that?
	Because They're not charismatic by nature.
	They're very stoic and reserved and stuff.
	But when the Spirit of the Lord comes, they're more charismatic than charismatics are.
	The Spirit of the Lord comes on them, they scream, and then they fall on the ground and do all this kind of stuff.
	Now that's not usually what happens, but with Lutherans in Minnesota, that's a common phenomenon.
	I don't know what that is, but that happens when they go to Minnesota.
	What happens to the Catholics in Wisconsin?
	That's what I want to know.
	The same thing.
	And so what people are looking for is they're wanting to have someone, it's what I call person of peace.
	You're at peace with the presence of the Holy Spirit so that people aren't shaken by this whole thing.
	And most people, they don't think that when the Holy Spirit comes there's any sense of wholeness or peace.
	They see it as chaotic.
	And someone needs to be a person that's Yeah, that's what the Lord does.
	It's okay.
	Just relax.
	Let Him minister to you.
	And what that does is that helps facilitate people to receive from the Lord, whether it's an individual or a group of people that you're doing this with.
	So I was at Chipotle with a team that I minister with, and we had just done a series of healing meetings.
	And I'm waiting on them.
	I'm going to pay for the meal.
	And so I'm waiting on them.
	And this teenage girl is behind the counter.
	And I'm looking at her.
	Now, this is not how you do ministry, but this is what I did.
	I said, Lord, you don't have a word for her, right?
	Is that a great way to start a ministry?
	You don't have a word for her.
	And because I was tired, I thought, no, God doesn't want me to do this.
	But I'm having to wait.
	And I'm saying, you don't have a word for her.
	And the Lord just says, well, yeah, I actually do.
	And I'm like, oh, well, what is it?
	And he shows me three pictures.
	He shows me one that she plays a musical instrument, a guitar.
	And then he shows me this scene where we're up in her bedroom and she's writing music.
	And then I see this third scene where the power of God is coming into this community while she's playing music and people are getting healed.
	And he goes, now tell her that.
	And I'm like, what?
	We're at Chipotle!
	I can't do this now!
	I just want to eat.
	There's no worship music.
	Yeah, there's no worship music.
	But, you know, when God says, you know, God's the Spirit of Truth, when He says, tell her, you know, you, if you're like me, I'm like, well, how do I start this?
	I mean, do I point and lift my eyebrow?
	You!
	And so I'm trying to figure out how do I do this?
	And I said, hey, can I ask you a question?
	And she's like, yeah.
	I said, do you like playing music like the guitar?
	And she goes, well, yeah.
	How'd you know that?
	I said, well, the God that loves you loves sharing secrets.
	And she looks at me like, what?
	And I said, "Do you mind if I share something else with you?" And she said, "Sure." I said, "I see you up in this bedroom with this little light at a table writing music." I said, "Is that a desire that you have in such?" And she says, "Oh my goodness, that's what I do every night after I get off first." And then she goes like this.
	She takes her hand and she goes like this.
	And I'm looking at her like, what in the world was that?
	But I didn't want to embarrass her.
	I just thought, I've never seen that before.
	I said, does that make sense to you?
	And she's like, well, how in the world do you know that?
	And I said, well, the God who loved you loves sharing secrets.
	I said, do you mind if I share the third thing?
	And she goes, oh yeah, that's fine.
	And then all of a sudden, the Holy Spirit filled me with so much joy that I forgot this person probably doesn't know the Lord.
	I just, I just threw off making sure I need to make sure she understands the language and everything.
	I said, you know what's going to happen to you in the future?
	The Spirit of the Lord's going to come on you.
	You're going to be released in the spirit of worship, but you have a healing grace on your life because one of your motivational gifts is serving and health.
	And the Lord's going to land on that, and you're going to write music, and the power of God's going to fall on people, and they're going to get restored from all this emotional pain and physical wounding.
	I said, does that make any sense to you?
	And she goes, no.
	And then she goes like this.
	She takes her hand and she does this again.
	And I'm like, what in the world is that?
	And so I said, Do you have any questions or anything?" And she goes, no.
	And I thought, okay.
	What in the world was that?
	So I'm walking over to one of the team members and I'm saying, did you just see that whole exchange?
	And he's like, yeah.
	And his wife comes up to me and says, hey Brian, yeah, you're not done with her.
	She's supposed to be coming into the kingdom tonight.
	You need to go back there and lead her to the Lord.
	Now, if you don't know me, what I'm about to say is going to sound kind of weird.
	I kid around with people a lot.
	And so I said to her, I said, what do I have to do all the ministry?
	You go lead her to the Lord.
	So she does.
	She goes back over there, and I'm watching, and they're talking and doing this, and then they're crying and they're hugging each other, then they're writing notes to each other, and then she's handing her a Bible.
	And so she comes back over, and I said, well, what happened?
	And she said, well, I asked her, he asked you, did you understand what was going on?
	And you said, no.
	Can I help you with that?
	And she said, yeah, I don't know why I said no.
	And she goes, well, what do you mean?
	Well, he kept telling me this stuff, and every time he did, this swirling presence of love kept coming near me.
	And it would overwhelm me, and I was trying to reach out and grab it.
	And she said, well, why are you trying to do that?
	She says, I've never experienced love like that in my life.
	I wanted to get it and put it in my heart, but I didn't know how to do it.
	And so the person said, well, That was Jesus, and he's saying, if you'd like to have that the rest of your life, he'd like to give it to you.
	And she goes, man, I want that.
	And she goes, great.
	Just let's invite him into your life right now.
	And she did.
	And the girl just, I mean, met Jesus.
	It was awesome.
	All right.
	Now I have a testimony.
	I was on the ambulance working in Tacoma a few years ago.
	And we went to a clinic where a woman was there.
	She'd slashed her wrists.
	She was suicidal.
	And, you know, if you're a paramedic, you go on a dozen of these calls a week, probably.
	Suicide attempts.
	So, for most people, this is the most boring call.
	She's got some superficial cuts on her wrists.
	They're not real serious.
	She's done a lot.
	She's got scars up and all up and down her arms from cutting and all this.
	Drug addict.
	Prostitute.
	So I was getting her medical history.
	One of the nice things about being in medicine is it gives you a natural segue to develop the relationship.
	Because when you say, you know, this pastoral ministry, the first thing you want to do is kind of introduce yourself.
	Hi, you know, I'm Dave.
	You know, how do you get someone to tell you what their problems are?
	Well, if you have a, you know, a drug box and a heart monitor, they expect you to ask them questions.
	So I'm getting her medical history.
	Depression, multiple suicide attempts, she's on antidepressants, and she had a history of prostitution, and STDs, and just, she was a mess.
	She was a mess.
	So, but the first thing that I noticed is when we walked in the door of the clinic, like I'm walking from the ambulance, I open the front door, and boom!
	The Spirit of God hit me.
	Like slapped me upside the head.
	I was like, what?
	What are you doing?
	He's like, the Lord was getting my attention.
	He's like, pay attention to this woman.
	I'm doing something with her.
	And I'm like, okay, okay, okay.
	I got message received.
	So we go in and I start talking to her, get her medical history and examine stuff.
	And like, it could be just a normal transport.
	She's there sobbing and she's crying and she's telling me the story and she's just pouring out her heart to me.
	Normally, a woman wouldn't tell you on a medical call, she has a history of prostitution.
	It's not really a pertinent medical finding.
	She's like, I went from drugs, I was selling my body, I'm a prostitute, I'm worthless, I'm so sick and tired of this life, I just can't live this way anymore, I need some kind of a change.
	I was like, huh, funny you should say that.
	She was crying out.
	For some answer, some change in her life.
	And I said, I have the answer for you.
	And she said, it's God, isn't it?
	And I was like, as a matter of fact, it is.
	And I said, all right, so I'm going to pray over you.
	And I signed a letter to the Lord in the back of the ambulance.
	She was like, she was so ready to turn herself over to God.
	She was done with all this crap.
	She had fed up.
	She had come to the end of her rope.
	And it was like the easiest sinner's prayers, letter of sinner's prayers.
	She's weeping and crying and slobbering all over the place.
	Joy, right?
	And I just felt this overwhelming joy.
	In the ambulance, all the way to the hospital.
	I was just overcome with joy.
	And so was she.
	Eventually, after she gets We say the sinner's prayer.
	She is just laughing and smiling, and the joy of the Lord was on her.
	We take her to the ER, I drop her off, and she is just overcome with joy.
	A good example of how, if you're paying attention to the Holy Spirit, He will sort of ping you and go, Hey, this is what I want to do with that person.
	I would never have known any of this had the Holy Spirit not sort of alerted me going in what was going on.
	I really believe that you have the most dynamic life when you follow the Lord.
	How could you replace this for anything else?
	Hey Dave, I need to do something again.
	Is that okay?
	Yep, do it.
	I don't know.
	John, you're out there.
	I know you're out there, so I need to connect with you just for a sec.
	The Lord brought you specifically.
	Listen to this.
	You've had a rough life with your father.
	The Lord is going to move towards you and resolve that issue.
	You're up in the northeastern part of the United States.
	The Lord wants you to know this.
	He has not abandoned you.
	He has good things in store for you.
	The stuff that you have your hand on in business, it feels like it's a failure.
	The Lord is going to turn that around.
	But God wants you to know He's not hard towards you.
	He's not You've been given a false picture of who He is.
	He's a Father, and He's saying, come back home.
	It's time for you to receive His love in your life.
	So Lord, would you go to John right now and bless him, strengthen him, and just embrace him in the Father's love.
	In the name of Jesus Christ.
	Amen!
	Amen.
	Thank you.
	Thanks, Brian.
	You're welcome.
	Are you okay?
	I'm great.
	I'm doing great.
	So, back to the model.
	The pastoral model.
	Yeah, here we go.
	So we need to get used to the presence of the Holy Spirit.
	We need to help people walk through it.
	Now we're on the other end.
	When should we stop praying for somebody?
	So this is going to be fun.
	Well, it's kind of simple.
	It's when the Holy Spirit indicates you're done.
	That works.
	Or you're praying and nothing's changing.
	You pray and you reach a certain point.
	Can I interrupt you real quick?
	Yeah, yeah.
	All right.
	So in the last step that you were talking about, you said you teach a lot on observe the person and look at their response to what the Lord is doing to them.
	Okay.
	you know, As a clinical person, as a medical person, it's essentially like, okay, well, you're monitoring your patient, check their EKG, check their vitals.
	If you give them a drug, check them to see if it's having an effect.
	A good effect or a bad effect.
	So when I pray for people to be healed, and I think this is really important, when you're doing prayer ministry for healing, ask the person if anything is changing.
	So if they have chronic knee pain and the Lord says, I just want you to command the knee to be healed.
	Command the knee to be healed.
	Do it a couple of times and then ask them.
	Or start out, what is your pain level?
	0 to 10, what's your pain level?
	If they say 8, command the knee to be healed, right?
	A couple of times, and then say, okay, where's your pain at now?
	And then move around, and if they say 6, you know you're going in the right direction.
	Okay?
	So, continue commanding that knee to be healed, it'll go down to a 4, continue commanding it to be healed, it'll go down to a 3, keep going, keep going, And keep going until they're pain-free.
	That's kind of a normal progression.
	That's right.
	Some of these things, with the prayer dynamic, just... And the first time you do this, you're going to be afraid.
	Look, I was afraid.
	I was like, I don't want to ask if they're any better, because I know they're going to say they're not.
	Like, I don't want to know.
	Like, I prayed, and like, I'm out of here.
	I don't want to know if you're any better.
	Because I was really afraid they were going to say nothing's any different.
	And sometimes they'll say that, but you'll be surprised because sooner or later people are going to say, well, I actually feel better.
	Well, is it all gone?
	No, not all gone.
	Okay, well then let's just keep going.
	And don't be afraid to ask the person, are they getting better or worse?
	That's right.
	I agree with you.
	In fact, what you just said was a specific healing thing that Jesus did.
	Do you remember?
	The blind man?
	Yeah, there's a blind man and Jesus is praying for him.
	And he's actually dialoguing, what are you sensing?
	And I've heard everyone say things like this, you know, Jesus just instantly healed everybody.
	Well, he didn't instantly heal everybody.
	That's it.
	We're saying stuff that Jesus didn't do.
	We really need to quit that.
	There are several stories where Jesus did what was called progressive healing.
	And so that means you have to visit it over and over and over again.
	So I've had the opportunity to do healing training, but I've also got to start six different healing rooms around the United States, and when I did it, when I was training people to do it, they were always frustrated at the people that had to keep coming back all the time, And I'm like, look, some stuff is miraculous and happens in a moment.
	Some stuff God has worked, especially the pastoral model.
	Some stuff just takes time because God's working on a lot of different things that are going on inside of them.
	Our job is to enjoy it, no matter how it's happening.
	Not be frustrated with it.
	It's got to happen this way.
	It's got to happen that way.
	I just posted a testimony on my Telegram channel of a woman Who is in a process of being progressively healed.
	Okay.
	So she saw the testimonies on Telegram.
	People were praying for themselves.
	And we're doing a little bit of instruction on, you know, power and authority and how that works.
	And she decided she's going to pray over herself.
	She has a bad eye.
	She has really bad vision in one eye.
	And she's got a severe elbow pain.
	And so she has been emailing me over the last week.
	I've gotten three or four updates from her.
	Her eye has been almost completely resolved.
	There's a little bit of visual disturbance still in that one eye.
	She says, it's mostly when I'm tired, but it's much improved over how it was when she started.
	Her elbow pain, she says, is almost completely healed.
	She has very little pain.
	So I'm just encouraging her to continue commanding that elbow to be healed.
	And she's doing this herself.
	She's not going to a healing minister.
	She's doing it herself, and she's getting progressively healed.
	And, you know, like Brian, the Holy Spirit said, I want you to ask me to invite my presence three times a day, and I want you to command the pain to leave.
	And it was a progressive healing over, what, a month?
	Yeah, it took a month.
	Very cool.
	All right.
	So how are we doing on time, Dave?
	I got all the time in the world.
	Okay.
	You're doing good.
	So you're going to... where are you at?
	Go ahead.
	Yeah, we're just on when do you stop praying.
	So the Holy Spirit indicates it over.
	This is going to be kind of fun.
	When you can't think of anything else to pray, that's probably a good time to stop.
	So when you said, when the Holy Spirit says you're done.
	Yeah.
	You want to talk about when the Holy Spirit lifts?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so The way that the scripture describes it, the manifest presence of God, you'll recognize He's speaking to you, or you can sense His presence, or He's resting on somebody.
	As you're praying, that's still going on.
	You keep asking, Hey God, is there something else?
	And you don't get anything.
	Or you keep praying and there's no change.
	And then what you'll recognize is, just by how you're going through the process of ministering to them, they're not sensing anything, and you're not sensing anything.
	That means one of two things.
	That means God wants to rest on them and minister to them without you being there, or it means you're done.
	Both means, basically, you're done.
	God's not giving you anything, and you're learning to do only what He's doing, not what you think should be done.
	Or, you're not gaining ground, so God's saying, it's just time to do this again.
	So just encourage them, hey, God's doing partial of this, come back, let's pick it up, or have someone else pray for you.
	And you're just learning to do that process with them.
	Cool.
	Alright, so then you pray, you just don't have a sense of it, and so you're done with that.
	And then, when Jesus was finishing teaching people how to pray, he had what was called post-prayer direction.
	Now, as Dave's been telling you his stories, he's saying, well, I'm in an ambulance, it's kind of hard for me to say to him, hey, you ought to do this, because he's moving them from one thing to another.
	If you do have time, Jesus actually didn't just take people through healing, Kind of slap him on the head and say, go that way.
	He would talk with them and he would encourage them.
	Hey, do this or don't do that or put this into your life because he wanted them to stay healed.
	He didn't want them to get healed, re-injure themselves or re-wound themselves and then come back for another round.
	He wanted wholeness to start being integrated into their life.
	And so you're wanting to give counsel to people.
	So that looks like things like When you pray for people, if they're doing a certain activity that brought this thing into their life, you want to just say, it'd probably be a good idea for you... Look at this.
	There's my dog.
	He never bothers me until I'm on video.
	So, you give them direction.
	Hey, it'd be a good idea for you to not do that anymore.
	You might need to speak with a counselor or get in a small group and start getting some pastoral ministry in your life here.
	And Jesus directed people to do this stuff all the time.
	He said, hey, don't do that anymore.
	I developed a habit of, it's sort of a script to give people instructions on what to do if the pain comes back.
	Because I would deal with a lot of people with chronic pain issues, shoulder pain, knee pain, whatever.
	And it was almost always a spirit.
	Reliably, I got so darn many people who had spirits of pain on them, I would just routinely start commanding spirits of pain to leave without even asking, what spirit is there?
	Is there a spirit there?
	I would just command spirits of pain to leave.
	But what I found out is, you know, and you probably found this out too, is a lot of times when the pain leaves, it'll then return.
	And if a pain in your body somewhere leaves during prayer and then returns.
	95% of the time, it's a spirit of pain.
	And you can every time you pray, it'll go away.
	And a day or two later, it'll come back.
	Right.
	So I had this particular thing myself, I had neck pain.
	And I was I was new at this.
	I didn't know a whole lot about what was going on.
	I had some friends pray over my neck, always get healed, always come back.
	Right.
	So For those of you who have dealt with this problem, you pray and it either gets a little better and not completely gone, or it goes away and it comes back.
	Or if you're praying for somebody and the pain moves around their body, very, very good indicator that it's a spirit of pain.
	It's a demon and it's moving around.
	Sometimes it'll make the pain worse.
	We have a woman who started commanding this demon to come out of her and it started manifesting.
	And it manifested as chest pain.
	And she got a little bit freaked out, but she knew it was a demon, and she just kept commanding this thing to come out of her.
	So, what I recommend, well, let me tell you my story.
	I had chronic neck pain.
	I went to a healing conference.
	A woman prayed for me.
	She said, are you holding anger toward anyone?
	I was like, well, I don't know, what do you mean?
	I'm going to ask the Holy Spirit to show you who you're angry with.
	I want you to release the anger and I want you to forgive that person.
	And I was like, OK.
	So I closed my eyes and there is my wife's boss at work.
	And he was he was kind of a controlling, kind of a manipulative person.
	And he was being unfair to her.
	And I really was kind of angry at him about that.
	So I said, OK, I release the anger.
	And I forgive him.
	And boom, like that, my neck pain was gone, and it didn't come back.
	So, forgiveness, you know, why did Jesus teach us we need to forgive people for the wrongs that they, you know, when they offend us, when they hurt us?
	Because Paul said, Ephesians 4, 25 and 26, do not, in your sin, in your anger, do not sin.
	Do not let the sun go down on your anger.
	Don't give the devil a foothold.
	Anger is a negative emotion.
	And if you hang on to anger, it gives the devil an opportunity to afflict you.
	If you release the anger, let Jesus take the anger from you, and if you forgive the person, it removes that wound in your soul that that spirit of pain is attached to.
	And the spirit will self-deport.
	I hardly ever have to do deliverance on people If we do emotional healing first.
	And what I tell people is, so my little script for staying healed is, if the pain comes back, here's what I want you to do.
	All right.
	If the pain comes back, it's likely that you've got some emotional trauma that needs to be healed.
	So you go to Jesus, have him heal the wounds, and then you command the spirit of pain to leave if it's still there.
	And it probably won't come back after that.
	That's one of the aspects of post-healing ministry is, well, you don't want this thing to keep coming back to you, so.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	That's good.
	That's a great illustration.
	So when we talk about this stuff towards the end, Dave, again, I can't believe I have to do this.
	Mind if I go for it again?
	Yeah, go for it.
	So, hey, there's a woman out there.
	Your name's Stacy.
	You live in the Arizona region.
	You actually have a problem in your back right now.
	The Lord wants to heal, but you also have a call on your life into the healing ministry, and the Lord is trying to connect with you on that.
	So I'm going to release a word right now.
	Holy Spirit, release your healing power over her back.
	I break the power of this infirmity, and I ask that an anointing would come upon Stacey right now, and that you would anoint her to do your work in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
	Amen.
	Okay.
	I actually didn't think I was going to be doing this for the whole entire thing.
	I'm glad you are!
	It's a good... Well, number one, you're blessing people.
	Number two, you're actually demonstrating, you know, the prophetic ministry, which is good.
	A lot of people don't understand anything about this.
	People that follow me... I have a lot of people who practice Reiki, and they're energy healers, and some of them are... probably do.
	Yeah, that's good.
	readings, spiritual readings on people.
	The things that Brian and I are talking about are very similar to those practices, to releasing energy, to fortune telling or doing spiritual readings.
	But what we're doing is we're using a different source.
	We're using the Spirit of God.
	That's our source.
	That's good.
	Also, I'm sorry, go ahead.
	No, go ahead.
	The Spirit of the Lord is actually ministering to your wife, Dave, right now.
	She's actually having a power encounter.
	The Lord is actually on her upper torso right now, and there's a gift of faith that the Lord is energizing in her.
	I don't know if she's in proximity of you, but I'm just going to ask for that to be released.
	So Holy Spirit, come on Dave's wife right now and release the gift of faith and a new measure inside of her.
	I command the blessing of the Lord upon her right now, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, She's going to be in this next season.
	She's going to be moving into more of the healing ministry, specifically with the broken hearted.
	God's going to draw groups around her, and she's going to begin to start training people on how to do that.
	And so, Lord, I just thank you for that in her life.
	In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
	Amen.
	All right.
	Amen.
	Thanks, man.
	So post healing, counseling, These are the kind of things that we need to consider, you know, because God isn't just dealing with them in a moment.
	He's dealing with their entire lifespan.
	That's right.
	And he's thinking about, so God thinks about wholeness.
	We think about events.
	And so God wants them whole as life goes on.
	And so these things that he tells us to do in the kingdom of God, he tells them not because he's trying to say, well, go do this.
	I just require it.
	There are avenues of health and wholeness that he wants you to participate in.
	So we would talk, you said you had a script We would say, well, get in small groups or start getting some pastoral ministry in your life, because that's where wholeness comes into you.
	We used to recommend, hey, go follow teachings of healers or equipers or people like that.
	This isn't about selling a tape or a book or anything.
	You're getting resources to get wholeness into your life, and that's why God—like, tell me, Dave.
	How many times has the Lord told you to do something you think, I really don't want to do that.
	And then God says, well, you're required to do that.
	You mean today?
	No.
	Yeah, something like today.
	Well, the nice thing about the Lord is he always will open a door, but he never says you have to do this.
	Like, when he instructs me through dreams, the dreams His messages, his prompting and nudging in the dreams is so subtle, I'm not really sure a lot of times what he's telling me to do, or what he's suggesting that I might do.
	But if I pray about it, if I meditate on it, usually I'll go, oh, oh, oh, okay, I get it.
	Like, he won't just come out and say, you have to do this.
	He'll say, look, here's an opportunity.
	You can say no.
	Well, and I wish I could say in every experience of my life I could do that kind of stuff, but sometimes the Lord says, Hey, I want you to do this.
	And I'm like, you know, God, uh, I've done this long enough with you.
	I don't really think that's a good idea.
	It's probably better if I do this.
	And then the Lord says, no, you actually need to do that.
	I'm like, okay.
	So a lot of stuff that he makes me like create like resources and stuff like that, and then say, Hey, you need to get these resources.
	I'm like, you know, I never wanted to be like a salesman or any of that kind of stuff, and now I have to present this stuff?
	But there's a reason God wants to make people whole.
	It's not about just selling junk.
	I mean, seriously, if I didn't have to do any of it, I'd just think, good, I don't have to do any of this stuff.
	But God requires this of people.
	Well, it took Denise over a year of begging and pleading and arguing and arm-twisting to get me to write my first book.
	The Lord had given me dreams about it.
	And I was still like, I really don't want to do this.
	Like, I just don't want to be an author.
	It's a lot of hassle.
	Who wants to take the time to do that?
	And it's like, I just want to, I just want to write articles because I liked, I liked writing, writing articles.
	And Denise is like, no, I think the Lord really wants you to be like seriously be an author, like write a lot of books.
	And I was like, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
	It took her a year to convince me to write my first book.
	And once I started doing it, I was like, you know what?
	I kind of like this.
	It's my mojo.
	And what I didn't know is that I thought my plan for my life was, I'm just going to be a paramedic until I'm 65 years old and I retire.
	And the Lord actually wanted me to be an author.
	That was what He had called me to do from the very beginning, and I just ignored it.
	When I finally published my first book, I told my mom about it.
	She goes, what, you're 50 years old and you finally published your first book?
	What the hell took you so long?
	Everyone has always known you were a writer.
	I said, what do you mean?
	She's like, when you were a kid, you were writing all the time, writing letters and writing this and like, we all knew you were going to be an author.
	I was like, how come nobody told me that?
	Like, like my mom saw it, and Denise saw it, but I never saw it.
	And so, so yeah, your point, your point is taken.
	You know, this isn't about selling tapes and books and CDs.
	I mean, we're glad that people buy them.
	But this is training and equipping, right?
	Like, we have experiences, Brian and I. We have life experiences.
	We've been down these roads.
	We've encountered these problems.
	And we have information that can actually help you guys overcome the problems that you're dealing with.
	Yeah.
	And if you're going to be a disciple, I mean, I had to spend, I think I, for a season when I was trying to get trained, I can't believe the amount of material I had to get to get this stuff in me.
	But there's a reason why God commands people to do this.
	Sometimes it gets diluted and we get confused by it, but God wants you whole.
	God wants you whole.
	And so that's why he says, do this stuff.
	All right, the last thing I'm going to present now is called the common pitfalls when it comes to praying for people.
	So these are the things that everybody runs into.
	When they minister and people don't get healed.
	So let's work through the first one.
	This is kind of amazing.
	God is a person.
	So when we're moving in the power of God, it's not just powers here and the person is over here.
	They're interlocked with each other.
	So I can actually start ministering and become insensitive either to the person or to the Holy Spirit.
	And if I'm insensitive to him, I'll grieve him and that'll stop it.
	Or if I start getting, like, not nice to the person I'm ministering to, that'll grieve the Holy Spirit and that'll shut it down, too.
	So the first pitfall is becoming insensitive to the presence of the Lord or how I minister to people.
	So, a lot of people say, well, don't you watch some of the ministers out there?
	I can't see the difference between them and World Federation Wrestling.
	I mean, they knock people down and they push them and they hit them and spin on them and stuff.
	Some of that is modeled, and it's ridiculous, and the Lord's not in it.
	That's just who they are, and that's how they were trained.
	Some of it is the Lord's led them that way, but God never requires us to brutalize individuals for being sensitive to people.
	So we just have to recognize that.
	I've seen tens of thousands of people healed.
	I don't think I've ever seen anybody hurt in the process of being healed that I know of.
	I mean, if I punch somebody in the ambulance, you know, I'd probably lose my job.
	At minimum!
	Well, I was about to tell a story that I was praying for a student one time, and the Lord told me to hit her in the shoulder, and I thought, that is not the Holy Spirit.
	That is not the Holy Spirit.
	And I kept getting it, and I'm like, I'm not going to do that.
	And I said to the student, Hey, I've been in this idea I'm supposed to, like, punch you in the shoulder.
	And she's like, do you think I would be in that?
	And I'm like, well, I don't know.
	And she goes, well, I really want to get over this pain.
	And I'm like, OK, well, are you willing for me to try it?
	Can you believe this, Dave?
	Now I have to tell you the story.
	I said, are you willing for me to try this?
	And she's like, yeah.
	So I just kind of, you can see my hand, I just kind of went like that.
	And she goes, well, it wasn't any better.
	And the Lord told me, Brian, I want you to hit her in the shoulder.
	And I thought, so.
	This is not a model.
	This is a specific revelation.
	I used to tell people this story, and then people would punch me without the Holy Spirit being in the middle of it, and I'd have bruises and stuff like that.
	So I let her have it.
	I hit her in the shoulder, and God healed her.
	And I'm like, what was that?
	And then the Lord pointed to spitting on people, putting mud in their eyes, all that other stuff.
	Now that's the part of the healing ministry I don't want to have any part of.
	And yet, if you guys are like I am, you cannot tell the Lord how he's supposed to do ministry.
	And Wigglesworth was the one who started that.
	Yeah.
	And he did it because the Holy Spirit told him, this is what I want you to do.
	It wasn't his habit.
	He didn't routinely do it.
	He did it one time because the Holy Spirit told him to do it.
	Yeah, that's right.
	And this is all about obedience.
	It's not, if you guys understand, this is about If God's in the middle of it, something that doesn't look awesome, God's going to use and do something in the middle of it.
	But you really have to really check and make sure it's the Lord over and over and over and over and over again.
	And I've been doing ministry up to 20 years before God had me even think about something like that.
	So, anyways, hopefully that doesn't start a whole bunch of people punching everybody, but let's keep moving on.
	Another way that you can Shut down the healing process is, and I don't know why we do this, but people turn prayer time into preaching or dominating.
	So they want to get a point across to them, so they just take their favorite sermon and they just hit it with them and they call it prayer.
	Same thing with prophecy.
	Yeah, there's this thing about ministering to the person.
	You don't have to like Dominate people or preach at them.
	You just need to stay in step with the Holy Spirit.
	So if you want to shut down ministry, just get into this, and I've watched people do it, they get in this mode where they've been waiting years to say something to somebody and so they take 15 years of angst and upsetness and they just go after people when they're ministering to them.
	You don't want to do that.
	Teaching and ministry are two different things.
	So you don't want to try to get your favorite teaching in while you're trying to minister to people.
	You want to be Don't make yourself the center of attention.
	That's right.
	Here's another one.
	Getting out of control.
	And we talked about this.
	So how do I just say this?
	Sometimes people get out of control with their hands or their face or they start screaming over people.
	And I used to do experiments with the Lord when I administered to people.
	do with volume, and it doesn't.
	It has to do with the voice of the Lord.
	And so I would practice things like whispering when I'd pray for people and not even saying anything to see if the power of God would be released.
	And I started recognizing that some of these models that we have for ministry actually get in the way of the Lord ministering instead of helping it.
	And so I don't know if you do this, Dave, but I spend a lot of time evaluating, how do I do ministry?
	Is this helping the Holy Spirit minister to the person, or is this becoming about me, and this is getting in the way of the process?
	Yep, because I've done this primarily at work in the health care setting.
	Believe it or not, I probably couldn't get away with, you know, standing up on a chair in the middle of the emergency department and, Thus saith the Lord!
	I probably would get fired for that.
	Actually, Because I was constrained in a work environment and a health care environment, right, where a lot of people are wearing masks and gowns and it's all sterile and everyone whispers and talks quietly and it's all hush-hush and quiet.
	If you're in the ICU and you're going to do ministry to somebody who's in an ICU bed, it has to be pretty darn under the radar.
	For me, it's very sneaky.
	I talk in whispers.
	Low tone of voice.
	A lot of times I did a lot of experimentation in the ambulance.
	Sometimes we transport people to the hospital.
	I would just simply put my hand on them as we're wheeling them in to the hospital, pushing the gurney with one hand and have my hand on them with the other hand.
	I'm not saying anything.
	I'm dialoguing with the Holy Spirit and I'm just releasing power.
	And the Holy Spirit's doing something.
	It's surprising how effective ministry can be.
	You don't have to always say anything.
	I've seen a lot of people healed and I've never said a word.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	Because you're carrying the presence of the Lord.
	Right.
	And actually, that was a great environment for you to get training in because when you go into the church, the church likes putting on shows.
	And so even when they do ministry, they like putting on shows.
	And then the average person that's looking on that is like, I don't have orchestras, and I don't have smoke, and I don't have white suits, and it's like, and so they just have this major disconnect, because they don't know how to do ministry in the streets.
	You have to learn a certain etiquette in the streets, and if it works in the streets, you probably ought to do that in the church, and stop making this church a form of Hollywood, where you have to entertain everybody all the time.
	That doesn't benefit anybody, so.
	Yep.
	Being theatrical does not help the Holy Spirit.
	I'll just say that.
	Another one is called distractions.
	Now this is kind of hard because when I first started ministering to people I was doing it in small groups and at work just like Dave was and I was doing it when my kids were little and so we would have ministry time at the end of a meeting and this is where our kids would come up from being babysit And they'd have cookies and soda and they'd be running around me and spilling their drinks on me while I'm trying to pray for people.
	You never have a perfect environment.
	But when you're first learning, you don't want to have things that are making it worse.
	So a lot of times when I'm in churches and we're having people minister healing, I always ask people, because they do this, I don't know why it is, but they turn on worship music and they blare it from the front.
	And it's so hard to be yelling at a person, hey, you know, and then them trying to communicate back.
	So what you're wanting to do is get rid of the distractions, if you can, if you can.
	Yeah, I would many times when I was, all these just stories are coming back to me.
	I did ministry in the emergency department quite often.
	And in one particular weekend, I kept coming back to this hospital In Lakewood, Washington, St.
	Clair Hospital.
	And I kept praying for these nurses that worked there, and all of them had foot injuries.
	They all had either bone spurs or a lot of plantar fasciitis.
	And, you know, I'm in the middle of an emergency department, you know, there's people coming and going, there's patients, and it's all kind of business-y.
	I would always try to get the person, when the Holy Spirit would, like, lead me, say, Chris, can you come here for a second?
	I want to ask you a question.
	And I take him down the hallway, around the corner, out of the main traffic area, into a dark part of the hospital where nobody's around.
	And I'd be like, Hey, can I pray for your feet to be healed?
	And they'd be like, Are you serious?
	I'm like, Yeah, like, uh, okay, sure.
	Yeah.
	Nobody's watching, you know, and I just pray over their feet, and they get healed.
	I would be intentional to get people out of the public view so it wouldn't be embarrassing for the person.
	Or me.
	Like I said, you don't have to be theatrical.
	Sometimes it's actually good to preserve the person's modesty.
	That's right.
	That's a great place.
	What a great place to learn to do that.
	The Lord helped you with so many things there.
	That's awesome.
	Alright, last concept and then I will be done.
	Here we go.
	This is called the Healing Learning Curve.
	So everybody gets to do this whether they want to or not.
	The disciples got to do this.
	And this should encourage you because everybody looks at the person they're trying to emulate and they think, well I'm not at that level so I don't get those results.
	But they don't realize that everybody had to go through a learning curve.
	Everyone.
	That's why Dave told you his story.
	That's why I shared my story, where I prayed for people that got worse before they got better.
	So even the disciples, if you look at the New Testament closely, these guys are the three stooges of circular ministry.
	They don't ever do it right.
	They say everything wrong.
	Jesus is constantly having to correct them.
	They were not smooth.
	And so this idea that this thing happens, and one day you're doing this, and the next day you're doing that.
	When people tell me that, I say, well yeah, God can do that, but that's not typically how he does it.
	Everyone goes through a learning curve.
	So what's the learning curve?
	Alright, everyone starts in disbelief.
	Everyone starts in disbelief.
	So Dave is kind enough to tell you his testimony.
	He started off as an atheist, and then God encountered him.
	But even after he encountered the Lord, the Lord had to start with him, not believing God did this, and then God had to have a conversation with him.
	Hey, I'm actually still doing this.
	This is what's going on.
	So everybody starts in disbelief.
	And when we say disbelief, we mean three things.
	It means you do not want to know.
	So there's a whole section of the body of Christ that can see Jesus historically healing, and they don't want to know anything about it today.
	They say, well, we have medicine and we have doctors.
	We don't need the healing ministry.
	So that's one form of disbelief.
	And it's a cultural thing.
	Most people say, well, those people are really in rebellion.
	No, I actually think they're in ignorance and they don't have a revelation yet.
	And so until God makes it known to them, they're going to be like me running around trying to fight with the charismatics all the time, saying, well, the reason you're charismatic is because you don't study the Greek or Hebrew and you won't study systematic theology.
	That's not the problem.
	If God doesn't open your eyes, you're not going to see it.
	Even if you read about it, you're not going to believe it until God starts the dialogue with you.
	So, everybody starts off there, you have whole entire sections of the Body of Christ, and this isn't to be nasty, it's just the way it is.
	The teachers have come up and they've refused to grow in the Lord, and they just like teaching doctrine, And then there's something tied to that economically, where if they step out into this other stuff, what it does is it causes problems in their life.
	And so they just want to stay in a certain vein and teach a certain thing.
	And what it does is it restricts the activity of the Holy Spirit in them and the people that are hearing them.
	I do not think they're in the rebellion.
	I just think they have other things going on that keeps them in that.
	They don't want to take risks.
	Yeah, they've gotten a certain level of security.
	So there's people that do not want to know.
	Then there's the people that do not know, which means no one's ever talked to them about it.
	No one's ever said, hey, do you ever consider Jesus is still doing this?
	They've not been around this kind of stuff.
	They've never seen it or had an experience.
	So they're ignorant.
	They have no knowledge about it.
	And like Dave said, why we're doing this today is we're assuming Some people have come in and they're saying, well, I never even knew this was possible.
	Well, everybody has to go through that.
	Everyone has to start asking a question.
	Does God actually still do this today?
	If he does, what does it look like?
	And so everybody, you know, disciples had to go through that.
	Dave had to go through that.
	I had to go through that.
	Everybody goes through that learning curve.
	Now, the reason why I'm explaining this is so that you'll recognize it and not get stuck in it.
	You don't want to get stuck there.
	You want to move on.
	The third place of disbelief It's called, um, know you do know, but you choose not to believe because you believe if you go this direction, it'll mess up too many things in your life.
	So God's convinced you, Hey, I want you to do this.
	And then you start playing this game.
	Well, I'm just going to ignore the Lord.
	I'm not going to go this direction.
	And what happens is you start realizing there's a cost I have to pay to do this.
	And you assume there's, I'm not, I'm not worth, I'm not going to pay that price for that thing.
	There are a lot of people that... I'm in the greater body of Christ.
	I'm with people who believe God does this.
	I'm with people who believe God doesn't do this.
	When I talk to them behind the scenes when no one's listening, they actually acknowledge they know Jesus does this, but they don't want to do it because they're going to have to pay too high of a price to do it.
	I don't know why people are like that, but that's just part of the issue.
	Well, and it's a comfort level again.
	You know, it's taking risks.
	Like, I've had people message me, email me saying, Well, you know, what are people going to think of me if I do this?
	If you're afraid of what man thinks of you, that's the first problem that you're going to have, because you've got to get over yourself.
	And in fact, you know, what the Holy Spirit taught me years ago, because I'm a recovering people pleaser, He said, you do realize that people are going to despise you no matter what you do.
	Well, that actually, yeah, that actually is how it kind of works out.
	Like I try to please people and I can't do enough for them.
	I don't do it the right way.
	They're angry with me.
	They're disappointed.
	They're upset.
	I try to do something else.
	They're upset and they're angry.
	I try to do something new.
	Another group of people are upset and angry.
	It's like you're always going to have people who are not going to appreciate what you believe, what you stand for, what you're doing.
	And if you really want to live out the destiny that God has for you, you have to learn how to not give a crap what those people say.
	That's right.
	You can't let people control you and say, if you do that, I'm not going to be your friend, we're going to get divorced, you're going to get kicked out of the church, whatever.
	At some point you have to decide what is your priority?
	Are you going to follow God, or are you going to let people control you?
	That's right.
	The good thing is, is the people that go on with this, they have what's called a crisis moment where they're challenged at that.
	And then you have to make a decision.
	Dave's probably had to do that.
	I've had to do that.
	And it's okay.
	Everyone always assumes, well, if I do this, my life's going to be a nightmare, but they don't realize on the other end how great it's going to be when they obey the Lord and go this direction.
	So that's one of the obstacles.
	The next one is this.
	Number two, it's called you're open.
	So you're open to it.
	You don't believe, but you want to.
	So in this stage, you just don't know how to connect the dots.
	So how does this work?
	So, okay, I assume that the nature of God is to heal, but I have no idea how any of this works.
	And what they're looking for are teachers at this stage.
	They need people to teach them.
	Jesus had to teach the 12, the 12 had to teach the 70, or Jesus taught the 70, and then everyone else had to learn to do this.
	So everybody's gone through this stage, Yeah, I was going to say something.
	fumbling and making mistakes and all that other stuff.
	And everyone thinks, well, that's the way it's always going to be.
	That's not the way it's always going to be.
	That's a stage.
	Just recognize it, that the realization that you need help means that the grace of God is drawing you towards this thing.
	And so you need to go that direction with it.
	Did you want to say something?
	Yeah, I was going to say something.
	What was I going to say?
	Oh, yeah.
	You were talking about the previous stage.
	So there's people that are open to it now.
	I'm running into a lot of people on Telegram who have... that they're open to it and they want to know more.
	And some of them have actually tried this and it hasn't worked.
	OK, so if you're one of those people, if you are open to this and you need some instruction, I would really encourage you to hang in there and realize, like I said, I prayed for 500 people for the course of like six to eight months and nobody was healed.
	OK, but I hung in there.
	I stuck it out.
	I learned.
	I read some books.
	I saw some videos.
	I was like, OK, I'm starting to understand how this works.
	There's a dynamic to it.
	And so if you're one of those people who is you're trying and nothing's happening, don't give up and don't say, OK, well, obviously I don't have the gift or God's not really doing this or whatever.
	If you stick with it, you will see success.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	I agree with that.
	OK, so the next stage is called timid.
	So this is important.
	I don't know if this is a really bad thing we teach people, but we teach this thing that if you're going to start ministering to people, you have the confidence of the world all the time.
	That's not true.
	Everybody starts off timid.
	So they believe that God wants to do it.
	They're acting on their belief, but they're not seeing very many results.
	This is what Dave was just talking about.
	And so there's a principle that Jesus wants you to know.
	Every person he calls to a change in their life goes through this cycle.
	It doesn't have to do just with the healing ministry.
	But he told a story about it, and he said, unless a seed—now remember, a seed has everything to produce something.
	Unless a seed dies and then breaks open, it doesn't manifest and become whatever the seed is.
	So God's going to show you something like, hey, I want you to start doing this.
	And then you're going to go through a process of it not going well, and that's to be buried so that the way the Lord breathes on it will burst forth and it'll become what the Lord wants it to.
	So everybody goes through dying to something before it is resurrected and brought into maturity.
	And in the mustard seed parable, where this is coming from, a lot of people kind of have a wrong idea about the mustard seed faith.
	And what the Lord showed me is He's connecting two different things.
	He's saying, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you'll stay to this mountain, move, and it'll be moved.
	And in the parable of the mustard seed, he said, the mustard seed, though it's the smallest seed, grows into a large tree so big that the birds of the air come to nest in it.
	What is he talking about?
	He's talking about growth.
	It's not small faith that he is going to accomplish things.
	It's faith that grows over the course of time.
	You have some testimonies.
	You get some experience.
	You get some training.
	Your faith grows.
	And that's the dynamic I think that Brian's talking about.
	Yeah, that's right.
	In fact, by you guys being around Dave or me and Dave telling you our testimonies, what we've been describing is, well, this is a process where God has grown his sickness, and everyone can go through this.
	This isn't for one unique person or another.
	It's for everyone that wants to go this direction.
	Okay, the next stage is this.
	It's kind of fun.
	Now it gets fun.
	It gets better, I should say.
	The next one is this.
	It's called fruitfulness.
	Okay, yeah, fruitfulness.
	So what happens in fruitfulness is now you're doing it and God is starting to give you breakthrough.
	Now here's the part.
	The people, I don't know if we have anyone online that's already been in the healing ministry for 10 years, but you But they're starting to see results.
	I really want to focus in, because we hardly ever talk to that group of people.
	I want to focus in on you guys just for a second and say something.
	You're going to have seasons where you've been doing it, and it's producing fruit.
	And then you're going to have the Lord come and challenge you to produce more fruit.
	And it's going to actually shock you, because you're going to point at your wife and go, well, haven't I already been producing fruit?
	And the Lord is going to say, Yeah, but we need to go up another level.
	So think about this.
	The way the Bible describes fruit is it gives you a standard where you're supposed to aim for, and then it's supposed to become so explosive that it affects everybody.
	And then there's a depth and a power that gets released in different stages to where you should be producing not only the amount of people being healed, but the dynamic of how they get healed is increasing.
	Because And most people, when you say this to them, they don't see it.
	But if you look at Jesus' healing ministry, it starts off, He's healing, it's healing, and then as He's progressing, it's getting more dynamic, more powerful, and He's doing more dynamic things as He's going through His three years.
	And what we do is we just look at it and we say, well, yeah, that's Jesus.
	But remember, He had the Holy Spirit on Him.
	He was modeling, He was kind of like the prototype, this is what it's going to be like for you.
	So you start off in small ways.
	It grows, it grows, it grows.
	But you're supposed to expect expansive growth.
	I mean, to where this goes beyond your lifetime into the generation kind of growth stuff.
	And so, if you've been faithful, and you're seeing why I do this, this, and this, let God challenge you.
	I'm at this stage where I've seen every healing except someone raised from the dead.
	And the Lord and I are having this constant conversation.
	dead.
	I do not want to go into my eternal reward unless I have hundreds of people I've raised from the dead.
	And so I'm just, I'm going at it with the Lord.
	I do not accept what the former generation had in their healing ministry.
	I want something that even eclipses that because of who Jesus is, so that the next generation can go beyond me.
	Yep.
	If you have been in doing this healing for a period of time, there are always challenges ahead of you.
	Have you healed anybody with Down Syndrome?
	Okay.
	Have you healed anybody with Lou Gehrig's disease?
	Have you raised somebody from the dead?
	Right?
	And the list goes on.
	Have you healed somebody of autism?
	Because there's all these very difficult challenges that we perceive them as difficult.
	The Holy Spirit doesn't.
	We perceive them as these high-level challenges.
	And I would challenge you, if you haven't seen these things, you need to pursue.
	Press into them and pursue them and ask the Holy Spirit.
	If he'll help you overcome what we perceive to be a challenge.
	Yeah, that's right.
	In fact, if you didn't recognize this, every time God draws near you and shows you something, you're being invited into a new sphere of the power and the authority of the Lord.
	So you don't want to just take one fruit.
	You want to learn to dive in as intensely as you can and say, let's go after this thing.
	And so you're wanting to be trained in new ways.
	You're wanting to expand in new ways.
	You're just, you're always not wanting to settle because the kingdom life is about the miraculous.
	You have to get your mind set.
	I live for the miraculous.
	Now how expansive is that?
	I mean, my goodness, we're hardly tapping into it.
	God wants to do so many miraculous things and he's trying to find somebody.
	Hey, do you guys want to do this with me?
	I mean, I really want to do this.
	And so there you go.
	Yep.
	And I'm going to add one thing, and this is just some friendly advice for all of you out there who are listening to this.
	One of the reasons why I decided to kind of jump off the, and I'm not off the politics and news and current events stuff.
	I'm still doing that.
	But the Holy Spirit really was encouraging me to come back in here.
	I had two dreams.
	About Brian the last couple of nights and the Lord's giving me confirmation about what he's doing with me Sort of returning to this subject of healing part of what what the Lord is doing with this is There's a lot of brokenheartedness right now In in the world Not just in America around the world
	So we're seeing all these oppressive measures by all these governments where they're locking people down and you know people are being forced to get the vaccination and there's a lot of people that are dying and there's a lot of people that are... I've heard some really terrible stories of people dying on ventilators in the hospital who probably didn't need to be on a ventilator in the hospital.
	And I think the Lord sees our brokenheartedness.
	He sees our frustration.
	He sees how angry we are about this, and He wants to do something constructive about it.
	Instead of us being on social media, whining and complaining about what these evil people are doing, He's trying to give us a solution to the problem.
	When someone gets COVID, if we just pray over them, and we get them healed, or if they get the vaccine, And you're concerned that they're going to have some negative, you know, effects from the vaccine.
	Well, how about praying over them?
	I already got an email from someone who said that the Lord gave her sort of a process, a prayer process, that he wants to pray over people who have been vaccinated to reverse any negative effects from it.
	We're all sort of feeling this angst and this tension about what's going on.
	And the Holy Spirit has a redeeming Now what I want to say is this.
	You don't want to hit that crisis moment unprepared because I'm seeing a lot of people in that situation.
	Your husband, your wife, your father is suddenly in the hospital on a ventilator and they're talking about pulling the plug.
	And you're in a panic now because you feel like you have a responsibility to maybe get them healed.
	You have no idea how to do that.
	This this time right here is training time.
	You don't want to be going into that crisis moment in your life unprepared.
	All right.
	I've had several brothers who died of cancer.
	I was just getting into healing when my younger brother was diagnosed with cancer.
	And by the time he was diagnosed, he was he was terminal.
	And I had to go into his hospital room and try to get him healed.
	And it was it was miserable.
	Because I felt ill-equipped to do it.
	You don't want to be in that situation where you're facing a life and death situation and you don't know what to do.
	You want to be trained before you get to that spot.
	You want to go up that ramp.
	I mean, Brian and I both, you know, don't start out.
	If you're new to this, please don't start out thinking that You're going to get somebody with MS or Lou Gehrig's healed as your first assignment.
	You're going to be frustrated, you're going to be angry, and you're going to think, I can't do this.
	Start out with something like, that's why I emphasize a lot, sprains, headaches, neck pain, back pain, shoulder pain, those types of things, soft tissue injuries, are relatively easy for new people to heal.
	Get some victories under your belt.
	Get a few people healed on the streets, grocery stores, you know, hardware stores, wherever you go, friends, family, pray for people.
	Get some victories under your belt.
	You'll be traveling up the learning curve.
	And that way, you know, God forbid some crisis happens, you'll at least have a little bit of faith to go in there and have an effective ministry to whoever it is that has the crisis.
	That's right.
	Great advice, Dave.
	So, Dave, I'm done.
	All right.
	Do we have any questions, or what do you want to do now?
	Oh, man.
	We have been going on here off and on for, what, three hours?
	Yeah.
	My longest podcast ever was longer than four hours, but I think we've covered a lot of ground.
	A lot more than I actually anticipated uncovering.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, I think we can kind of wrap it up.
	You know, I can look in the chat here and see if there's any questions real quick.
	Let's see.
	I'm just seeing a lot of people agreeing with what we're saying.
	For those of you who are on the live stream, thank you for joining the live stream.
	And those of you who are supporting Brian and I, Through prayer and through financial support we appreciate it by the way again Brian I'll put a link to your ministry poem line in the comments or in the description on the video, but Brian has Brian is one of the few people who still has a YouTube channel if you if you want some more information He is a great teacher on prophecy and
	Word of knowledge, revelation, healing, deliverance.
	Brian has been teaching this stuff forever.
	And I would really recommend going to his YouTube channel, going to his website.
	Is it Plumline.org?
	It's PlumlineM.com.
	PlumlineM.com.
	Go to his website.
	He's got tons of resources there.
	If Brian is open to doing this again, I may have to have him back on Supernatural Saturday so we can talk about deliverance.
	Or something else.
	Awesome.
	All right.
	Thank you, Brian, for your time.
	Thanks, everybody, for joining in.

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