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Aug. 15, 2016 - Praying Medic

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058 Kevin Winters - Living in the Spiritual World

In this episode I talk with my friend Kevin Winters about hearing God's voice, prophetic ministry, how we access the spiritual world through our imagination, and interacting with demons. Resources You Can Hear the Voice of God Clearly God, Is that You, Me, or the Devil? Kevin's Website Doing Life on Fire

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	Everybody hears, they just may not recognize the voice of God.
	Hi, I'd like to welcome you to our show.
	I'm your host, Prangmatic.
	We're talking about life as a child of God and all things related to His Kingdom.
	Thanks for joining us.
	If you're a new listener to the show, you can find articles and books and other resources on my website, www.prangmatic.com.
	Now let's jump into this week's show.
	Hey!
	Kevin Winters!
	How you doing?
	I am doing pretty darn good.
	I'm busy working on books.
	My editor Lydia and I are going back and forth on the Traveling in the Spirit book.
	And since she doesn't know anything about traveling in the spirit, it's good that she's my editor, but it is a colossal pain because I have to explain everything in really simple terms.
	And that's kind of weird.
	Yeah.
	I just kind of assume sometimes when I write that everybody lives inside my head and they understand what I'm talking about.
	Yeah.
	So Lydia's like, I don't get where you're going with this.
	I don't understand this.
	Can you explain this a little more clearly?
	So, Which is good because that's kind of my deal with my books is I try to make things as simple as possible, but it's been a little challenging this time around.
	It's not an easy subject to make plain for people, but you have a unique knack for that.
	You kind of pointed that out one time.
	You said that's my unique selling point, USP, is making things simple.
	Spiritual things simple.
	So yeah, that is kind of my deal.
	I have a ton of questions for you, my friend.
	Okay, okay.
	For listeners who are not familiar with Kevin Winters, Kevin and I have been friends on Facebook for a while.
	We're in a writer's group where we inspire and encourage people who are, whether they're bloggers or they want to write books.
	We're two of the main contributors to that group.
	And Kevin and I have talked a lot Because we have a lot of things in common.
	We're both very interested in prophetic ministry, in teaching people to hear God's voice, in healing and deliverance and understanding the spiritual realms, things of that nature.
	Those are the things we're going to talk about in this podcast.
	Kevin, I don't know how much time you have, but man, I have so much I want to talk to you about.
	Like, we've had these little threads on Facebook and I just think, Man, I want to talk for about another half hour about just that one subject because you have been doing this for a while.
	You've been, what, over 20 years you've been involved in this kind of ministry.
	You have some very interesting experiences and the Lord has given you some really cool revelation about things like demons and the spiritual roots of sickness.
	You have a couple of new books out.
	Yes.
	I downloaded your most recent book, I think, which is How to Hear God's Voice.
	Clearly?
	Oh, yes.
	That's the small book.
	The big one is, is it you, me, or the devil?
	I was looking at that one.
	I'm like, wow, that book is 360 pages.
	That is a heavy duty training manual.
	Yeah, I wrote it that way because I wanted it.
	I wanted to cover as much as I could because I really would like for people to sit down and not, you know, when you write a small book, sometimes people had a temptation to just run right through it, and then they don't go back.
	So I like having something that they can go back to over and over again, because I actually go back to it myself over and over again, and I wrote it.
	I have to do that myself with my own books, because I teach on so many different subjects.
	When I want to do a teaching on something I haven't taught on in a while, I will sometimes have to go back to A chapter on a book I wrote and refresh my memory.
	When you were young, you met an evangelist.
	He was a young evangelist and he was speaking to God back and forth at this meeting where people were getting knocked over in the spirit.
	And at that time, you didn't actually understand the whole concept of a personal God who talks to people.
	Can you tell us a little bit about that day when you met that guy and how that changed your mind?
	That was an interesting day because I had grown up in this church, and when I was there, when I grew up there, it was 300 people, and now it's up to about 11,000 people.
	But at the time, it was about 2,000 people, and the pastor there was a traditional Baptist, and that's what it's always been.
	So, I didn't know anything about this stuff.
	I didn't know about speaking in tongues.
	I didn't know anything.
	I had never seen any of that before.
	So, when he came, That night, it started with my pastor.
	He met my pastor.
	My pastor was saying he didn't believe in that.
	He put his hand on my pastor's shoulder, and he was out in the parking lot.
	He put his hand on your pastor's shoulder, and your pastor went down?
	He went out of the apartment.
	And so, he brings this guy to the church.
	And at first, we thought nothing of it, you know.
	But he started with the day service, and he started ministering.
	He preached, and then at the end, he ministered in the gifts and things.
	And we just thought, I thought, man, my pastor is going shady.
	He brought this fake guy in here to fake out money.
	This is what this is about.
	So you thought this guy was like from the other, from the evil side or something?
	I didn't know.
	I didn't think it was the devil.
	I just thought it wasn't real.
	Okay.
	And it wasn't until later that night when he came back to do another service.
	Now, I didn't think it was real, but I thought it was fascinating.
	So I came back that night and I'm looking, And I have a friend standing next to me and he falls up against the door when he says three, 13 people been healed from sinuses and my friend falls up against the door.
	So I turned to him and say, man, what's wrong with you?
	And he said, Kevin, uh, this guy just, well, he said that something pushed me up against the door when I felt like a vacuum in my sinuses has been cleaned.
	So I said, okay, something's going on here.
	But at the end of the service, You know, Disadvantages had been traveling with more Cirillo and been all around the world and he never got to come back twice.
	And so he said, you know, I never get to come back twice.
	And then he stopped right there and he looked up in the sky and he's talking.
	I'm going, who in the world is he talking to?
	Then he finally said, uh, yeah.
	Okay.
	And that's what got me.
	Cause he said, okay.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Then, you know, he said, God said, I'll be returning.
	I said, what?
	I don't know what happened after that, because I was like, God talks to people, and I really wanted him to talk to me.
	And so he said something at the end of the night that really started it all for me.
	He said, there are going to be five people.
	Now, just about 2,000, 2,500 of us, five people, the Lord is going to rest with you for the next three days.
	I got to be one of those five people.
	So I had this presence of God on me for, it was three days.
	Three days of walking with the presence of God, and it just ignited something in me to know that we can talk to him.
	The good part was, you know, I hadn't seen any bad experiences.
	You know how some people had bad prophetic experience, and they've been jaded, and so they're really jaded by the whole thing?
	Right, you get a bad experience, you get someone is operating on the wrong spirit, and you get hurt or wounded or whatever, and it kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
	Yeah, so I didn't have any of that.
	So I ran full steam ahead, and then I ran into somebody who introduced me to Benny Hinn's book, Good Morning, Holy Spirit.
	And I read through that, and listening to him, or reading about how he was spending time with God, and God actually wanted to spend time with him, just made me really throw myself into the presence of God.
	But I still didn't have a grid for any of it, because I'm at this traditional church, and I'm talking about this experience, and nobody's understanding Me talking to God.
	They're not understanding this, what's happening to me.
	They were there for the same thing, but it didn't stick with them like it stuck with me.
	It didn't impact them the way it impacted you.
	It didn't.
	I can't understand that, because when I say it was, it was a phenomenal night where he would wave his hand, or he would just say, the Spirit of God is coming from that side.
	He didn't wave his hand, he just said he was coming from the left side, and then Something would come, the Spirit of God would come from the left side and people would fall like dominoes to the left.
	And so it was just, it was an incredible experience.
	People were getting healed.
	Now I'll tell you, the turning point for me really happened when somebody else I knew got healed and he was deaf in one ear.
	That was a shocker for me because I'm like, I know this guy.
	I know him and I know the guy that got pushed up against the door with the sinus problem.
	I know their issues.
	So that's when it all became real for me.
	And it's just been impacting ever since.
	I mean, I get emotional even now thinking about it because I enjoy, I really enjoy my relationship with God.
	You do, but you took kind of an interesting route because after you got out of school, you were going to be a rap artist.
	Yeah.
	And God said, no, you're going to be an artist, but not exactly a rap artist.
	Yeah.
	And it was so interesting because even then, while I pursued this Uh, dream of being a rap artist.
	I had a dream that I came up, um, uh, elevator in, in New York City and the entire city was made of crystal.
	It was all crystal.
	The stairs, the city.
	It was the most beautiful dream I think I've ever had.
	And it was so real.
	You know, it was so real.
	And I didn't ask again, I didn't go up.
	You know how some people grew up in church where they saw a lot of stuff I just had no grid for it.
	So I just thought, man, I had a really weird dream.
	And it wasn't until later that God explained it to me.
	How did he explain the Crystal City to you?
	He said to me, he brought the dream back to my remembrance one day while we were talking in prayer.
	And he said, he just said to me, it would have only taken a stone to bring your fragile world to an end.
	And that's why the city was made of crystal.
	He was saying, it's a beautiful dream, Kevin.
	But it's very fragile.
	And you can see that.
	You can see where people are popular one day, next year their album is a flop.
	And the fans who loved them the first year didn't love them the second year.
	And you see them go from, you know, riches to poverty just like that.
	Right.
	So that's what he was trying to tell me.
	And I didn't even know who he was.
	I wasn't even thinking about him.
	And I did grow up in a Christian home.
	But again, I grew up in the kind of Christian home where I'm an artist, right?
	You know me, so you know I'm an artist.
	I couldn't have comic books, though, because comic books were of the devil.
	I couldn't get, like, you know, the fade haircut where it's heavy on top and faded on the sides.
	I couldn't get that because that was of the devil.
	I grew up doing that.
	So, you kind of grew up under a lot of religious, you know, rules that you had to keep?
	Oh, yeah.
	A lot of religious rules.
	A lot of crazy religious rules.
	And that was the church before the pastor came.
	And even after he came, he still had a lot of that.
	But after the experience with the evangelist, I will say he reached out and he started doing words of wisdom and he started doing a lot of things.
	Then we became, we went from a traditional Baptist church to a full gospel Baptist church.
	You know, we have classes on the gifts and all of that, but you never see them.
	I mean, you never see them on Sunday.
	You really never see them.
	That's an interesting subject because when I, after I got saved, and I was 38 years old by that time, I got into kind of a good Bible teaching.
	It was a non-denominational church, and they taught the gifts of the Spirit, but you never saw them in practice.
	Nobody ever spoke in tongues.
	You never saw anyone healed.
	You never heard anyone prophesy.
	It's like, we're going to talk about this stuff, but we're not going to have anybody do it, because I don't know if there was fear that the devil was going to get in or what the deal was, but it was very frustrating.
	And then I got kicked out of that church.
	And then my wife and I started going to an Assemblies of God church.
	First time, and Denise was excited, she was like, Oh, this is cool, because this is the stuff I really want to want to learn about.
	She had been wanting to learn how to speak in tongues for a long time.
	And the first time we went to this church, I was a little freaked out because I was not ready for that.
	And there's three women standing right behind me singing in tongues.
	I was like, Wow, that is Kind of cool.
	It's a little creepy, but it's kind of cool.
	And then we had prophets come in.
	I remember my friend Melody Pash came in and she was prophesying over everybody and we'd pray for people and there's people getting healed all the time.
	And the Holy Spirit was manifesting the gifts like crazy every week.
	And that was exciting for me.
	How did the Lord then give you those experiences?
	If it wasn't happening in the church that you were going to?
	Got real excited, and you know, I was here preaching Jesus to everybody on the job.
	And so, doing that, you know, I ran into other Christians, and I didn't even know about other types of Christians.
	I thought everybody was... I thought... I only knew Baptists and Methodists.
	Oh yeah, so you were looking in the little tiny fishbowl, like everybody's like... Yeah, I was in the little fishbowl.
	Yeah, and so there was a Bible study happening on the job behind us, and The guy who, the two people who were running it happened to be here at the building with me.
	Well, one of them was, and they were, and he was a prophet, and he's the friend I told you about online.
	He would start, people would go looking for things like a house or something, and God would supernaturally move him spiritually to the place where they had been looking at the house, and he would be prophesying to them, looking at them in their face, but at the same time walking through The property they had looked at and he would describe it in detail to them and say, this is the house the Lord's going to give you.
	And with all of that confirmation, you know, they couldn't help but believe.
	And so that was my exposure to Prophet the Prophetic.
	So you ran into a heavy hitter in this Bible study and this guy was the real deal.
	Yeah, he was the real deal.
	And then he left and a guy took over the Bible study who began to, uh, I call him a mentor, but he was the kind of mentor that he never would tell you what God was saying.
	Now, when you were around him, you were nervous because you know, he knew all of your business and you were like, God holds back no secrets about this, you know, about my life from this guy.
	But no matter how much he knew, he would not tell you what God was saying.
	So the way he mentored everybody was, he would make you go back and find out what God was saying to you.
	So we would say, Brother James, can I, you know, I'm having this issue.
	And he would, he would say, well, what did the Lord say?
	Why don't you tell me what the Lord said?
	You tell me what the Lord said.
	But he always did that.
	He always did that.
	You see, that's that I think personally, I think that is, I think that's a brilliant way To mentor people.
	I actually posted a little thing on Facebook this morning.
	A good teacher shows you where to look but doesn't tell you what to see.
	Right.
	So a good mentor says, look, go to the scriptures and look for this.
	And this is what the Lord wants you to know about.
	But you need to find the revelation yourself.
	I get people who come to me, you know, what is the Lord saying about my life?
	And I'm like, well, have you asked the Holy Spirit what He wants to tell you?
	And they're like, well, I don't really hear the voice of God very well.
	I'm like, that's a problem.
	That's the problem.
	Because you can't really, you shouldn't live your life expecting the man of God or the woman of God to tell you everything the Lord is saying about your life.
	You have to eventually learn how to do it yourself.
	Right.
	And I always say, if you don't know When God is speaking to you, you still don't know when God is speaking to you, whether He uses a person, a dream, a vision.
	It still requires some discernment to figure out, is this God talking to me?
	It could be anybody talking to you.
	And so I always try to point them back to, let's get to the root of this.
	Maybe we need to sit down and let's figure out how you can hear God.
	Because you're hearing God, and that's the thing, and you know this too.
	Everybody hears, they just may not recognize the voice of God.
	Yes.
	For those of you who've read my book, Hearing God's Voice Made Simple, I'm just going to tell you straight up, I am not nearly as gifted or as developed in my gift of hearing God as Kevin is.
	And if you think my book is a good book, read Kevin's books, because you're going to learn a lot more about actually hearing God in his books than you will in mine.
	My books are very broad.
	I talk about how God speaks through art.
	How God speaks through music, how he speaks through film, things of that nature.
	But I don't go very much in depth on the actual relational aspects of connecting with the Holy Spirit, getting confirmation, getting verification of what you're hearing, all that stuff.
	Your teaching is really, really good on those aspects.
	You know where that came from?
	That same prophet that God first introduced me to.
	Now, he was helping me learn at one point, and here we are in the Bible study with all Watching.
	We're all in awe of him because he's operating, you know, I had never seen it before and this Bible study had people that were charismatic and protestant.
	So some of them were just as new to this as me.
	Okay.
	And then God's, you know, I'm seeking God in my prayer time and I'm having experiences and I start hearing God clearly.
	And so I come back to the Bible study.
	Now I'm sharing things.
	Well, the attention shifts because he was sharing things that were, you know, like, Prophecy is really like a sign.
	So, you know, you you'll preach and then the signs will follow.
	And so he was using his signs as his lead and God was giving me revelation on things for how to live and it was always somebody in the room was saying, hey, that that was for me.
	I was just studying that this morning.
	And so then I started having my own visions and dreams and I don't know if he got jealous or what it was, but he started treating me differently.
	And one day I was joking with him about some strange thing I heard and I knew it was the enemy.
	And he turned to me with a sharp finger and he turned to me and just pointed at me real harshly.
	You need to watch who you're listening to.
	And that day began the rest of my life, because from that point forward.
	Going forward, I struggled with doubt.
	I mean, I really struggled with it.
	That's where the book title comes from.
	Is this God, me or the devil?
	God is this you, me or the devil?
	I read that in the intro to the book.
	Now, what I would like to know about that particular instance was, do you think that that was him trying to sow seeds of doubt or was he actually discerning that you were hearing the devil and you weren't hearing God correctly?
	I think it was a little bit of both because he knew that I was hearing correctly, but it was the way he said it.
	It wasn't loving.
	It wasn't, you know, and you can identify God by the expression.
	And so it wasn't loving.
	And then things after that, he would always harass me.
	Like he would say he couldn't leave his job because I was holding him back because I didn't get to the place he wanted.
	So he was doing stuff.
	Then he started doing stuff.
	I had those kind of crazy prophetic experiences with him where he became, tried to be a domineering prophet.
	So I know about that where you had this one that thinks they are, you know, your end all be all and you can't do anything without them.
	And that's unfortunate because, I mean, you and I both know one of the big issues in church leadership right now is control.
	People want to be in control.
	They want to have the center of attention.
	They want to be on the platform.
	And a lot of leaders are really interested in sort of micromanaging people's lives.
	Yes, they really are.
	And when you run into a gifted leader who is like that, it's unfortunate.
	So you must have had a short term relationship with this profit then because things started to deteriorate.
	It sounds like.
	It started to go a little south, but we always remained friends because I was young and impressed.
	I was like 21 at the time, so I didn't.
	And he was like, 49 or something like that.
	But when he finally left town, we left on good terms.
	We didn't, we never allowed it to, you know, I wasn't going to let it mess up my relationship with God and he wasn't going to let it mess up.
	But he just, he started to struggle with other areas of his life.
	And like I go into the book later, I talk about, there was an experience where we're praying and I see demons on the counter and God shows me who they're going to start with first, second, and third, and how they go to open doors for each one.
	And that's how he taught me about warfare and how to strategize.
	And so the first thing they did was they opened a door to a woman who started lusting for him.
	And so that kind of messed up our relationship too, because the woman started lusting for him and he didn't fall into sin with her, but he didn't, he didn't reject her advances and it led to a lot of gossip and he let it go too far.
	And it was actually because the Bible study went from 20 people to about 5, because of that event.
	And eventually there was no Bible study.
	So the enemy kind of got what he wanted, which was to shut that Bible study down.
	He got what he wanted.
	Yeah, he got what he wanted.
	And that was a sad day.
	It was a good day for my mentor, because my mentor picked up with it.
	And then I branched off and started my own Bible study.
	So the enemy didn't completely get what he wanted?
	He didn't get everything he wanted.
	Sometimes you cut down a tree and then the apples fall and they spread seeds and more trees grow up.
	He didn't get everything he wanted.
	That's cool.
	But we ended on good terms.
	Yeah.
	On good terms.
	You believe everyone can hear God's voice?
	I believe everyone.
	I'm certain that everyone can hear God's voice.
	We all have spiritual senses.
	Like we all have Physical ears that hear.
	We have spiritual ears that hear.
	We have physical eyes.
	We have spiritual eyes.
	Yeah, and you know what God has taught me is, you know, we're hearing and seeing things all the time, but people don't know what's happening.
	And so, uh, one of the main receptors and what he, this last couple of years, he's really been just dealing with me more about the mind, more about the mind and pay attention to your mind and imagination and things that are happening there.
	But, People hear things all the time, but they just don't realize what they're listening to.
	And so that's why I talk about, like I have a chapter in that book where I talk about the mind and its role and how it relates to the spirit and the whole nine, because people are always hearing.
	I'll never forget, this is one of the ways God really taught me how to pay attention, is there, I struggled with procrastination on the job.
	And it was getting on my nerves because I wanted to overcome it.
	Number one, the job was born.
	And that was all I was a file clerk back then.
	And we're just born filing all day.
	I was sitting down and as I was talking to God, I said, God, I'm having a hard time with this, this procrastination.
	And he said, next time it happens, I want you to be quiet and just listen to your thoughts.
	And so I said, okay, so I'm sitting at my desk and I'm about to get up to do some work and then I hear, I hear, you can do that later.
	And I was like, who is that?
	So people are hearing like that all the time.
	They're hearing, oh, don't she look good?
	I'll never forget.
	I was looking out the window one day.
	I'm married.
	I'm happily married.
	And I look out the window and I hear, here comes your girlfriend.
	That ain't my girlfriend.
	But these spontaneous thoughts that we ignore, this is the main way the enemy gets a lot of people.
	So they're hearing all the time.
	And the way you increase the volume in our hearing is all you got to do is pay attention to it and the volume increases.
	Right, exactly.
	Now you're getting into the beat of hearing those spiritual voices.
	Whichever voice you pay attention to, there's like a little volume knob that turns it up more and more or turns it down if you don't pay attention to it.
	Yep.
	So people are hearing, and that's what I try to help people understand, especially when I deal with warfare, is they're hearing all the time.
	They just don't know who they're hearing.
	So that's why I focus a lot on discernment, because once you start discerning them, you can hear them clearly.
	And even in knowing what's keeping you back or holding you back.
	When I first started seeing in the spirit, I saw them all day long.
	I mean, I saw them walking down the hall, they were around people, they were on the job.
	You saw demons all over the place?
	I saw them everywhere.
	They're like everywhere.
	They're like... I've come to the place now where it's absolutely natural that all of these other beings are around.
	It's just natural.
	Dude, if people could actually see in the spirit all the angels and demons that are walking around, it's like superimposing another world full of spiritual beings.
	As many people as you see, there's as many angels and demons out there.
	Walking around, doing their thing, trying to torment people, trying to bring healing, trying to bring messages from God.
	It's like, there's this other reality, and all these spiritual beings are doing this stuff.
	And like, when you hear those little voices, like, yeah, doesn't she look good?
	Or, hey, you know, wouldn't you like to go get drunk after work or whatever?
	You don't think, you hear the voice, you hear the thought, and you think, where did that come from?
	But people never put it together that I'm hearing somebody else.
	And so, the other thing I tell people is, you know, it says, God didn't give us the spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind.
	So, I looked up sound mind, because all these years, I always thought it was, I'm not crazy.
	But the Greek word means, the sound mind means self-control.
	So, I was like, oh, that's interesting.
	Which means, there's a link between controlling yourself and your mind.
	And so, once I began to understand that, I started realizing I have control of myself.
	That includes my thoughts.
	The thoughts that I can't control, those are not my thoughts.
	And you know, when you hear from God, it's the same way.
	Okay, so this is a question people ask me all the time.
	How do I know if it's the devil or if it's God or if it's me?
	And I'm saying like what you said there.
	You have self-control.
	Your mind, will, and emotions, and your thoughts.
	You have control over those things.
	Sometimes we don't understand, like we have this thought and go, well, did that come from somewhere outside of me or was it my own thought?
	Well, like you said, if you have control over it, it's an internal thought.
	If I start to think about, you know, I'm hungry, I should make some bacon and eggs.
	That's it.
	If I can make that thought go away that quickly and think about something else, I'm going to think about, you know, going out and washing my car.
	Thoughts you have control over are thoughts that are internal.
	Thoughts that arise spontaneously out of nowhere that you did not consciously think about, or that when you can't change them, those are external thoughts.
	They're either angels, or demons, or God, or some other spirit being, because self-control.
	It's a huge piece of the puzzle for people, and a lot of people don't understand what self-control really looks like.
	That might be the problem, that they don't know what self-control looks like, because sometimes I struggle with, you know, it's not your thought, you know?
	Did you think it?
	Did you not think it?
	But, you know, like, I hear, because when I'm talking to God, that's a lot of the ways, I have no control over Him, because He's a person, every angel's a person, every demon's a person, and we can't control any of them.
	When God starts a conversation, I mean, you can turn down the volume knob and tune Him out, But you can't change what he's going to say.
	You can't change what he's going to say.
	And Jeremiah finds that out, right?
	Jeremiah says, I don't want to do this no more.
	I'm not going to do any more preaching for you.
	And then he said, I can't because the word is like fire set up in my bones.
	So he was like, I can't make him go away.
	I don't want to do it no more.
	And so even when I tell people about when you want to know if it's God, one of the big ways, don't be so pressed to give it.
	Just walk away.
	It'll come again.
	He won't leave you alone.
	And you know what I mean.
	I know what you mean.
	I have to dream.
	Oh, man.
	Person after person.
	I don't want to get too much into politics, but I decided last year that if the Lord was going to speak to me about politics, I was going to be open to those conversations.
	And boy, has he been speaking to me about politics.
	It's getting irritating to some of my friends, probably.
	But the thing is, he keeps on speaking.
	And I said, look, I'll be open to this discussion if you want to have it.
	And he said, OK, well, yes, I'm interested in having this discussion.
	So if you allow yourself to be open to either what the demons want to talk about or what God wants to talk about, you're going to start hearing no subjects talked about.
	Yeah.
	If you're interested in pornography, they will talk to you, show you things, give you dreams.
	They'll do all of the same thing.
	You're opening a door.
	You're just opening a door that says, hey, come on in, let's have a conversation.
	Yeah, because I try to tell people the principles of the spiritual realm are the principles of the spiritual realm.
	I think one of the mistakes the church makes is they say, well, this is God and this is the devil, and the devil wouldn't do it that way.
	But he does.
	They're just principles of the spiritual realm.
	Principles of the spiritual realm.
	Exactly.
	You can hear anything.
	If you get quiet, if you give any one of them your attention, you're going to hear them.
	And it'll be clear, just like any other voice.
	They'll curse you out, do all that stuff.
	Alright.
	So, do you believe that for most people, learning to hear God's voice is like an immediate thing that happens, or is it a process?
	I think learning to hear is immediate.
	I think learning to discern is the process.
	I think that's where most people struggle.
	Because it takes time to become confident.
	I tell people, God is a person just like you.
	And even though it seems like just because God says something you're going to trust Him, you really don't.
	You have to learn how to trust God.
	And that's something that... Trust has to be earned in every relationship.
	Even with Him.
	And people don't like to believe that.
	But you can look at Israel coming out Part of the problem was, for 400 years, they've known the Egyptian gods.
	Now, here comes this new god.
	Sure, he does something greater than what they've seen in Egypt.
	And, you know, they had power, because you saw them turn the sticks to serpents.
	So, they did not form the power, but they're formed to this power.
	And they're not sure.
	They don't trust him.
	And you can see that all throughout, where they just don't trust him.
	And they keep looking back to the old god.
	So, and it's the same with God.
	You have to learn how to Trust him.
	I'll never forget, he spoke to me in an audible voice.
	I mean, really clear, loud, audible voice and said, tomorrow they're going to offer you a job.
	Don't turn it down.
	So next day, guess what I did?
	I turned it down because I got scared because I hadn't come to a place in my maturity.
	You weren't trusting God yet.
	That's interesting.
	You know, when you look at the ministry of Jesus, So he chooses the 12 disciples, and he's doing ministry with them, and man, they're having some trust issues with him.
	Yeah.
	Because he's teaching some pretty heavy-duty things, things they didn't want to hear.
	He's telling them, I'm going to be crucified, and they don't want to hear that.
	And they're struggling with this issue of, man, should we trust this guy or not?
	Sometimes he seems a little flaky.
	Peter denies him.
	I mean, there was some serious trust issues.
	After three years of being with them.
	Right.
	Yeah, people, I think people need to understand that it's natural to have trust issues with God.
	When I was first started having dreams, the Lord was showing me dreams about me doing some things that I was kind of uncomfortable with, like prophetic crime solving.
	He was showing me addresses of murder scenes, dead bodies, He wanted to give me names and addresses of people who actually committed the murders, like cold cases that were unsolved.
	He was suggesting to me that he would give me the information and I could go to the police with that information.
	I was like, OK, yeah, I'm not really into that.
	So I pretty much asked him for another assignment.
	Because I didn't trust that he could keep me safe and make that a situation that wouldn't blow up in my face.
	Because, you know, you start giving that information to federal prosecutors, and the next thing they're going to want to know is, how do you have all this information?
	Oh, yeah.
	And now you're a suspect instead of the informant.
	So, yeah, but it is a process of trust.
	I think it is natural not to always trust what God's doing or saying.
	You brought up something the other day about whether demons have access There's a lot of Christians are under the impression that only God is omniscient.
	And in order for you to see the future, you have to be omniscient.
	But the thing is, God's omniscience means He knows the outcomes and events of all things.
	But the Bible also says He reveals His secrets to His servants, the prophets.
	We don't have to be omniscient for God to reveal His secrets to us.
	We just have to have access to the information.
	The information is out there.
	Is the information of people's futures available to demons and angels as well as us?
	Is that a spiritual principle or is that only revealed to certain people?
	No, I think, you know, God's been talking to me over the last couple of days in detail about sort of this same subject.
	One of the things He's been, actually He's been talking to me for a long time, for years, but you know how sometimes you just struggle to embrace something?
	What people sometimes don't understand is that when God gives us the gifts, He gives, He literally gives them to us.
	And they're for us, for our use.
	And like, if you're at the point in your healing ministry now where you don't need to be led, you can decide, hey, I'm going to go over there and minister to this person and heal.
	And then you have people like Bill Heyman, who had, Prophet Bill Heyman, who's been teaching people for years.
	Hey, these are your gifts.
	These are your gifts.
	You have to use them.
	So you run into people who never use their gifts.
	God's not using me.
	That's not the problem.
	You're not using the gift because he says, let him who prophesies, let him who prides.
	You have to use the gift.
	Let him who serves in serving.
	So he tells them.
	So my point is God gives us the gift.
	The gift is the ability to see, like see the future.
	So you'll see that A person has the ability to, you know, they just know things like word of knowledge.
	Like my, I have a buddy, another buddy, he is word of knowledge.
	You almost don't like being around him.
	He's another one who he starts speaking in tongues.
	He's in your business.
	You just like, man, can we have a day without you being in my business?
	Stay out of my business, but he can do it anytime he wants to.
	So he doesn't have to wait for words of knowledge.
	He can tap into words of knowledge.
	One of the things, Well, a lot of Christians say that psychics and tarot card readers aren't right.
	Because we know for a fact there are well-documented psychics who have things that come – like Sylvia Brown or something like that.
	She's renowned.
	She's not wealthy and renowned for being wrong.
	Well, and a lot of Christians say that psychics and tarot card readers aren't right.
	They're giving us wrong information.
	Well, my wife, before she was a Christian, went to a psychic, and the psychic told her years ago, you're gonna be the mother of twins.
	Okay?
	So, she has one child, doesn't have any more children.
	He grows up, he graduates high school, he's in college, and she's thinking back about this word that she got from the psychic, like, this lady said I was going to have twins, and I'm done having children.
	And I have twins.
	So this woman saw something about her future and said, I see you being the mother of twins.
	Didn't tell her she can be the stepmother of twins, but it was an accurate word.
	And this is from a psychic.
	Okay.
	She was looking at my wife's timeline way in the future and seeing that she's gonna be a mother of twins.
	They do get accurate information.
	They have the gift.
	They're operating in the gift.
	Yeah, it's a gift, and that's what people still understand.
	It's a gift that you can submit to either source.
	That's what he showed me the other day.
	He said, Jesus is in the wilderness.
	The miracle of changing the rock to red is the same type of miracle as changing the water to wine.
	It's the same gift operating.
	But the first time, Satan tried to make him use the gift.
	The second time, God made him, the Holy Spirit made him use the gift.
	And so you'll see that it's not about the gift, it's about the influence and the motive behind the gift.
	And he's been really saying that to me over and over.
	You'll read in Saul prophesied in chapter 18, it says, and a crazy spirit from God, evil spirit from the Lord came upon Saul and he prophesied.
	One chapter later, he's looking for David.
	He runs into Samuel.
	When he comes with the prophet, he takes all his clothes off naked.
	It says, and the Holy Spirit comes upon him and he prophesied.
	And you can go all through.
	So the problem is never the gift, it's the source who's inspiring our use of the gift and how we use the gift.
	Because I've seen the same prophet, the same one who introduced me to this.
	One day, we were all in the basement.
	He got into this place where he wanted to show off.
	He wanted to show off with his gift.
	And the first like 10 minutes, he was, of course, wowing everybody.
	It's a whole bunch of us prophetic people, but he had the strongest word of knowledge.
	And so he's showing off.
	And while he's showing off the presence of God lifts because he's not operating from the right motive at this point.
	Next, we all get this knot in our stomach because now he's starting to prophesy and we all know this something ain't right.
	Something ain't right with this and all of us, but we don't know what to do.
	You know, all of us are new except for one or another prophet who was there.
	And so eventually he starts rambling and he starts to like almost lose his mind.
	And so We had to get up and cast out of him a familiar spirit that took advantage of him using the wrong motives.
	So, the same gift that he was using just a minute before, God was using the gift.
	A minute later, something else was using the gift.
	So, you guys actually had to cast out a familiar spirit from him?
	We had to cast it out.
	That was my very first time we had to cast it out.
	That was the first time I had even seen it.
	That's crazy.
	I would like to say I've never experienced that kind of thing, but I have experienced that kind of thing, where very gifted, prophetic people had the wrong motive.
	And because they had the wrong motive, it made them susceptible to a different spirit.
	And it's never good when that happens.
	Right.
	But their gifts were still operating.
	And that's what throws people off, because they still see the gift operating.
	I know a lady, a prophet told her, you're going to be my wife.
	Now, she was already married, but she went with him anyway.
	They got into this illicit affair.
	So, uh, it's possible.
	So that's why, that's why my, my focus, and this is one of the things I love about, about God is he knows how to bring pictures together.
	I believe in community.
	I believe in partnering with people and working with people because God gives everybody a part.
	And one thing he said to me one day, he shows me a vision of us.
	of a circle.
	And he said, this is what my people think wholeness looks like.
	He said, but wholeness really looks like this to me.
	And he shows me a puzzle piece.
	And what he pointed out to me about the puzzle piece was there were some parts that were obvious strengths and other parts where you had deficiencies, you had weaknesses.
	He said, this is where my strength is made perfect and weakness.
	He said, but the other reason that I make people this way is so that they can partner with other people.
	And so you'll see where people have similar passions, but slightly different.
	Right?
	So you'll see my, one of my biggest things is discernment.
	Like I can talk about discerning, discernment, and I've wrestled with demons and fought with demons and seen demons.
	I've had plenty of experiences with that.
	And so what God allows me to do is come alongside and add my part.
	And so that's why even with, uh, with your book, I recommended your book, Mark Beichler's book, I put those in the back of my book as other resources, because I realize that everything God gives us is meant to be a companion to something else.
	And anytime people isolate their one gift, then they have one little perspective.
	And you've seen people, they'll try to be, you know, they'll try to dominate one section of truth, and they won't, they're not open to anybody else's truth, because they think that God has given them everything.
	I'd like to say that doesn't happen, but it does happen.
	Whether it's prophetic teaching or healing, there are some ministers who want people to think they have all the answers.
	They've got it all figured out.
	You just need to take my course, take my lessons, and don't worry about whatever else is teaching.
	You know, this is all you really need to know.
	And that is a dangerous agenda.
	You know, the Lord gave me that one dream.
	It was a very powerful dream about how ministry works, like healing.
	I had this dream where I was way in the future and I was working as a divine healer and I would show up for work and I would literally take out a file of somebody I was going to pray for who needed healing.
	The Lord would show me certain things about them in visions and I would pray as I was led by the visions and my prayers would be recorded and become a permanent part of their record.
	Then they would go to another person and receive prayer and that person would pray in a completely different way.
	The prayers would be recorded and become a part of their record.
	They would go to four different people and when they were done with receiving healing prayer from four different people who prayed four different ways, they would be healed.
	And in the dream, everybody was always healed, but they had to go to four different people.
	And all that symbolizes to me is the idea that none of us have the whole picture.
	We're just little pieces of the puzzle.
	And, you know, people come to me and say, well, I can't get healed.
	And I'm thinking, well, you know, it's a complex puzzle.
	I can maybe give you one piece of the puzzle, but you might need to go to Steve Harmon for another piece.
	You might need to go to somebody else for another piece.
	And it's a process.
	And it makes us value.
	One of the problems we have in the church is people don't value each other because it's hard to value somebody when you think you're a circle.
	But when you know you look more like a puzzle piece and you have areas of weakness, it's easy for you to allow other people to come along who complement your weaknesses.
	And that's what people really struggle with.
	So, like, I'm still a part of the evangelical church.
	They're a little further along, but they're still not.
	And so I was going to go to a charismatic church.
	And I was like, I'm going to go to the charismatic church.
	And God said, no, I want to stay right here.
	And then he shows me this vision of this These logs of fire, and this one log, and he says somebody's got, in order to have a fire, there has to be a fire present.
	Those logs won't catch fire without a fire near them.
	You're the fire starter?
	Yeah, I get to be the guy to expose them to things.
	And it's a little easier because they teach on it at the church, you just don't see it.
	And so I at least get to help them see it, what they've never, you know, what they've never seen and go, you know, so they get a little fascinated with it.
	And my wife is like, my wife don't, my wife thinks I'm crazy.
	She thinks I'm crazy.
	And it is strange that God brought us together because now my wife has her gifts.
	Some of them operate, but she's not as familiar with everything.
	And when we got married, I was sort of in a slump with my, I couldn't see in the spirit as well.
	I would see if I wanted to see, but I never really looked.
	And so I told her about it, but she hadn't really seen it.
	When she started seeing it, she thought I was a little crazy.
	But she helps to balance me because, you know, when you live in the supernatural all the time, you just look at life from the supernatural point of view.
	Like, if I want something, I know I can get it from God.
	I know how to use faith and get it from God.
	And so for a long time, I wouldn't buy any clothes.
	I would go in the same clothes until they got worn out.
	And then I would say, God, I need clothes.
	And he would show me things like a blank check and send me to the mall and let me go get all the stuff I needed.
	And then I get back to get back to the job I'd have.
	He would replenish that plus more so I can go shopping again.
	And I always lived that way.
	So I have a lot of those kind of stories.
	But when I met my wife, she said, you know, you can take just a little bit of your money every month and just get a shirt or a tie or a pair of pants.
	You don't have to wait till you have nothing and get everything all at once.
	It never, that's funny, but it never dawned on me because I always lived on miracles.
	And so I learned that God is practical and supernatural.
	He is.
	Right.
	But you know, but you know too Dave, cause you, you had that evangelical background too.
	When you, when you, you run into people, you run into people who don't think they should ever go to the doctor.
	Right.
	You know, my faith.
	And then they get sick and they won't use medicine and they won't do things that You know, they won't use common sense because, well, God is all supernatural.
	That's just their point of view.
	You know, so, for me, I listen to faith things, I've listened to deliverance people, I've listened to a lot of different things to help me stay rounded and experience God from, you know, all of the different sides.
	Where I've met people who don't listen to anybody that's not charismatic, or they don't listen to anybody that's not evangelical, they won't listen to anybody that's faithful, they won't listen to anybody because they done got in their little box And then when they need faith, they don't have access to faith because they haven't been under a teaching where God can transform that part of their understanding.
	And so I believe highly in the puzzle pieces of the body of Christ.
	Oh, I do too.
	Yeah.
	I, you know, I listened to a lot of a wide variety of teaching because it's, to me, it's interesting to get somebody else's perspective.
	I love hearing testimonies about how God does things differently for different people.
	Like I remember watching this YouTube video which was a testimony of this guy who he had cancer and the cancer was in his chest and it was around his heart and around the vessels the aorta and the vena cava and his doctor gave him a really pretty bad prognosis.
	He said look this is a very rare form of cancer It's not easy to treat.
	If we do surgery, we probably can't even get all of it because it's, there's a risk that we're going to rip open some of your large blood vessels and you bleed to death.
	So the guy said, let me pray about it and I'll see what the Lord says.
	So the guy was praying.
	First thing the Lord said was, I want you to have the surgery.
	He said, are you sure?
	And the Lord said, you need to have the surgery.
	So he went in back to the doctor and they scheduled him for surgery.
	And the surgeon said, we're not going to be able to get all of it.
	I'm just going to let you know right ahead of time.
	We're not going to be able to get it all.
	We'll get as much of the cancer as we can.
	So when I had the surgery, everything went fine.
	He comes out and the doc says, we got most of it, but there's still some cancer there, but it's too dangerous for us to try to remove it.
	So you're just going to, you know, do chemo and radiation.
	And then the guy says, I'm not going to do chemo and radiation yet.
	I'm going to pray again and see what the Lord wants me to do.
	So he prays.
	And Lord says, you don't need chemo and radiation.
	You just need to have your friends gather around and pray for you.
	So he has a little prayer meeting.
	Friends pray for him.
	He goes back in.
	They do another scan and all the rest of the cancer is gone.
	Supernatural and practical.
	And you have to be open to let God do it however he wants to do it.
	And it's not the same way every time.
	Actually, my mother died that way.
	My mother got uterine cancer and she was dead sent, you know, just she was against chemo and anything else.
	So she let them do the surgery.
	I said, well, mom, have you heard from God?
	Nope.
	So she stood on something that he hadn't said.
	Right.
	And then when it progressed so far and she realized, Oh, maybe I should try, maybe I should try something that it was too late.
	Right.
	So, and I, and I've seen that with other people where, They just don't give, and this is the value of his voice, just give him the chance to tell you what to do, and don't assume that it's going to be supernatural, and don't assume that it's going to be practical.
	You've got to be open to what he tells you to do, because that's the way it's going to work.
	Exactly.
	Yeah, I mean, if you're in the Charismatic Pentecostal Church, it's real easy to just assume God's going to supernaturally send some angel down who's going to give you a new lung or a new heart transplant or something like that.
	Whereas God may actually have a different plan, and you need to, like you said, give Him a chance to speak to you and tell you what He wants to do.
	I mean, what did Jesus say?
	I only do what I see the Father doing.
	How do you know?
	You have to ask.
	He didn't say, I only do what I assume the Father wants me to do.
	We kind of assume sometimes.
	And so I've gotten to the place where I've gotten much better with, you know, I've gotten to the place where I trust him and I've seen him do enough things where I just, I trust him.
	But it took some time and it took me failing and sometimes I still fail, but I trust them more than I ever have.
	And so, you know, I'm at peace all the time.
	I walk around in peace all the time.
	You know, that's, that's the thing that, gosh, I hope the people who struggle with Getting beat up by Satan, and their life is a mess, and they lost their job, and they lost their home, and they got divorced.
	If your life is falling apart, I really want you to hear what Kevin is saying.
	Because I live from the same place.
	Like, look, I've been divorced.
	I lost my kids.
	They moved out of state.
	I was under investigations from my fire department.
	I got fired, getting arrested.
	People don't understand.
	They think I just had this wonderful, blessed life.
	No, I have been through hell on earth for about seven years.
	But in all of those things that I went through, what the Lord was doing was He was teaching me how to trust Him.
	If you allow God to do that work in you, and if you allow Him to put you through some trials and tests, you'll come out the other side of it a person who has peace in every single circumstance.
	And you're that kind of guy.
	I know you are.
	You have peace.
	You do not get rattled about things that happen.
	But you know, the thing is, What people don't realize is, when we talk about the voice of God, when you get rattled, you only make it harder to hear.
	You only make it harder to hear, because now your emotions are everywhere, and instead of having one voice, you've got a whole bunch of voices in your head.
	You've got voices of worry, you've got fear, you've got all of this stuff happening.
	As soon as you start to fear, you open the door for the demons to start talking to you.
	Yep.
	And they are going to start talking.
	They're going to start telling you everything that could happen, and what should happen.
	What's not going to happen, and how your life is going to crater after this, and everyone's going to leave you.
	You ain't going to have no friends.
	You're not going to have any money, because God really doesn't care about you.
	Because if he did, he wouldn't be letting this happen.
	They'll do all of that.
	And so that's why coming to that place, like even with witchcraft, like people get all worried, Satan is doing witchcraft.
	Like in our area now, we have this group, because some of the Christians have started little Christian programs in the schools.
	And so, now the Satanists have decided, well, if the Christians can have little after-school programs, so can we!
	And so they're trying that.
	And everybody's just all up in arms.
	Oh, what are we going to do?
	I said, y'all, we don't have to worry.
	That's like bringing, you know, y'all bringing the need to us.
	Because this is where we get to show them the difference between God.
	You know, people won't know the difference if it's always only Christians.
	You'll never know the difference.
	You have to have exposure to both.
	Or even when it comes to the voice of God, if you only, only hear God, you'll never know the difference between Him and the others.
	One of the greatest moments in Elijah's life was the showdown with the prophets of Baal.
	Yeah.
	I think that's like a biblical, I mean, that's legendary, that story.
	It's like, okay, bring it.
	Let's have a little contest here.
	You know what God said to me one day, and it was interesting, you know, when everybody was just worried about witchcraft.
	He said, I swooped down on the spools.
	He said, I'm not worried about it because I swooped down on the spools.
	And I was like, what are you talking about?
	He said, well, Simon was doing witchcraft when Philip came along.
	He had already prepped the air for the supernatural.
	And so they were already open to the supernatural when Philip got there.
	And so what was interesting is, as he was telling me this, this guy comes into the office and he has this Knee problem.
	And I thought initially, you know, I was like, man, I'm at work and I'm gonna pray for this guy on a job, but this guy don't know me like that.
	And when I said, can I pray for your knee?
	He threw his knee out so fast that it shocked me because I was, I was expecting him to be, but you know, afterward, you know what he told me?
	He said, Oh, cause I have a uncle who does, is a martial artist and he uses Chi power.
	He used Reiki here.
	And so, Because he was already open to the supernatural, it made my job easier.
	Where you, and you know this too, you run into some people, you ask, can you pray for them?
	And they get all, they cringe up and like, well, what you going to do?
	And that's because they've never experienced the supernatural.
	And so I don't, I don't worry about what Satan does because whatever he, it's not like he's operating without God knowing what he's doing.
	There's a counter plan in place.
	He does have a counter plan.
	And I'll tell you, The people, I've been surprised.
	I've walked into nursing homes and hospitals and saw nurses limping around with bad knees and one time I went to this nursing home and I saw this nurse, she had a wrist immobilizer on and we dropped off our patient and I got signatures and stuff and I walked over to her and said, hey, what's up with your wrist?
	Carpal tunnel?
	Is it tendonitis?
	She says, I don't know.
	I had an MRI and they really couldn't find anything but she had a lot of pain and inflammation and soreness through her wrist joint and up into her thumb.
	So I said, hey, can I pray for you?
	And she said, yeah, that'd be great.
	So I had her put out her hand and we were talking and she was at a Reiki meeting the night before, actually.
	I wanted to ask her, OK, so if you're doing Reiki, how come you're not healed?
	But I didn't want to go there.
	I don't want to insult her.
	But the thing was, because she was doing energy healing, she was open to the supernatural.
	She believed in healing.
	She believed in the power.
	She just, you know, is using a different source.
	And so when her wrist got completely healed and the thumb and everything was great, she was like, this is so awesome.
	Man, I'll tell you, the glory showed up and she started rocking back and forth.
	And a nurse walks by and looks at us and like, we're just having a little moment here.
	Don't pay any attention to us.
	But it was cool because She was open to the supernatural already, so if people are into, whether it's Wiccan or witchcraft or whatever it is, at least they know that there is supernatural power out there.
	You can have a dialogue with those people.
	Better than you can with the Christians?
	You can, because if you're like a Baptist who just doesn't believe in the gifts of the Spirit, you don't believe in miracles, you're a totally closed mind, you can't do anything with that person.
	You can't do anything with them.
	And I've run into him.
	And so, I've come to the place, you know, I don't panic at every little thing Satan does.
	Because I think that people have made Satan, like, the little god.
	It's like, there's God, and then there's Satan God.
	Like, they're equals.
	Like, he's equally as evil as God is good.
	But he's not!
	He's just an angel.
	Yeah, he's just an angel.
	He's just an angel.
	Who convinced a bunch of other angels and I always say, man, I always say to them when they come running, trying to harass me, I say, don't be mad at me.
	Y'all the dummies who followed him.
	I don't know what he said to y'all to get y'all to fall down and do something as dumb as what you did.
	So don't come in here mad at me.
	I want to talk about another subject that you were talking about on Facebook the other day.
	You were studying martial arts.
	And you ran into this guy who could make his body immovable.
	Yes.
	Okay, so tell me about that, because that was an interesting story.
	Well, you know, martial arts is, most people don't realize, when you get to black belt, that's really the start of it.
	So they don't teach you the really deep stuff until you get to the black belt.
	And my father's a black belt.
	He's been a martial art instructor.
	So that's why I've always had this interest and fascination in martial arts.
	And but some of the things they teach you are how to capture what they call chi power and how to use it.
	So there's a guy on YouTube who can actually use it, you know, to start fires with his hands and do all kinds of things.
	So I knew that going in.
	I started out with my kids taking martial arts.
	And since I had to be there for two hours with them, I said I might as well join the class.
	So I joined the class.
	And then I found out that, you know, my instructor has spent a lot of time in Asia.
	He's actually appointed over a new martial arts that is new to Korea.
	It's their hand-to-hand combat military.
	It's special forces martial arts.
	That's the other thing that attracted me to it.
	Special forces martial arts being taught to regular people in America.
	And he was The grandmaster of this delegated to America.
	He happened to live around the corner from me.
	And so we're in class and we're doing all these things and they started to talk about how he is the real deal.
	And so they talk about how he stood in the middle of an auditorium and invited the people in the audience to come down and try to move him.
	And he conjures up his chi energy and they can't move him.
	And my other instructor is bigger than him, younger than him, stronger than him, but he could not move.
	And so I was like, oh, that's interesting.
	So I didn't think about it at the time.
	I wasn't in a backslidden state at the time.
	I just wasn't really pursuing anything regarding ministry, had neglected the gifts and let them go dormant and all that kind of stuff.
	So yeah, he could do that.
	But they teach that in martial arts.
	And a lot of people don't realize that.
	As you start climbing up in those second, third, fourth, fifth, they start teaching you the occult part of it.
	They don't call it the occult part of it, but it actually is.
	And so I got exposed to it, you know, really early on, like in high school, I wanted to be a ninja.
	So I studied some ninjutsu.
	And so in ninjutsu, you do learn, like we had a buddy that, he called it pulling the spirit out of a person.
	So you would focus on the person and then you would make this pulling movement.
	And so he would do this and people would be running and collapse to the ground.
	And you know, this is the other part, Dave, that's shameful.
	I was in church, but I was starting to have experiences with the supernatural outside of church.
	Because the church was spiritually dead and nothing was happening, but you were still, your spirit was wanting to engage probably the spiritual realm in some manner.
	And I think it goes back to that God gives us a gift, and then he comes along and activates it.
	But before he does, Satan tries to activate it, because he tries to do a lot of other things.
	So, I had learned about soul travel and all of that stuff.
	I had learned that early on, and I never could make it work, except one time.
	I had, I always had a problem with collapsing lungs.
	My lungs would spontaneously collapse at 17.
	They started to spontaneously collapse anywhere for any reason.
	And one day I ended up, they ended up collapsing and it caused me a problem.
	So my parents found out cause I hadn't told them anything.
	I just, I didn't know what it was.
	I just went on about my business.
	But eventually I ended up in surgery and I have to have, I get little blisters on the lung and the blisters would explode and cause the lung to fall off the chest wall.
	So they went in and cut all these blisters off.
	The right side.
	Well, while I was in the hospital, the left side collapsed.
	So the right side was still healing.
	I had just had surgery and the left side collapsed.
	And you know, as a paramedic, I can't have an anesthesia because it's going to lower my breathing.
	So it's a local anesthetic.
	So they take out the scalpel and they give me this little local numbing thing.
	I said, I'm not staying here.
	And I closed my eyes and imagine I was in the field and I was gone.
	When I came back, it was all over.
	I felt nothing.
	So I was already starting to experience these things outside of God.
	So, yeah, so martial arts, you know, I'm not a guy who would say, oh, don't do martial arts.
	But when you just got to know when you get in, there is a part of it that leans into the occult practices of it, where, you know, there's a reason why you can put your hands to a brick.
	And your first thing they teach you before you can do that is you got to be able to cultivate a certain amount of spiritual power inside of you, so that you can do that.
	Essentially, it's a form of energy work, I'm guessing.
	Yeah.
	They teach you how to control your, really, you know, energy.
	And what was interesting is, when I was taking the class, You know, I already knew I had my prophetic gifting and senses.
	And, you know, they sharpen your instincts because you know what's coming.
	They just sharpen your instincts.
	You saw people, their punches coming before they came at you.
	I could, yeah, it was split second before.
	So I always, so I was dominating the black belts.
	Now, mind you, this is a special forces class.
	I was a white belt, but he put you up on the floor against anybody and they were told, but I was dominating the black belts and the brown belts.
	And that's because I had this advantage.
	At the time, I didn't know that it was something else that probably came from, you know, because if he's cultivating that kind of power at the top, then that spirit is ruling that particular dojo.
	And so, my senses are sharp.
	And I'm blocking everything, stopping everything.
	I can beat them to the punch.
	I'm faster.
	I'm stronger.
	I thought nothing of it.
	I kept saying, wow, I kept saying to my wife, God is teaching me how to fight.
	That wasn't being deserted.
	He's teaching me how to fight because I was coming back to class with, I can do this, I can do that, I can see it.
	All these, I was being fed visually these revelations on how to fight.
	So I said, oh God is teaching me how to fight.
	So you were kind of like, you were kind of like Neo in the Matrix getting his training going on.
	I was getting a download on fighting.
	I got a download on fighting.
	It was, yeah, it was just like that.
	And I didn't think anything of it until I hurt my back and I couldn't go back to class and I wanted to go back.
	And by this time, I had started really engaging my relationship with God again.
	And he said, no.
	I said, why not?
	He said, I love it.
	And so I figured maybe he didn't want me to go back because maybe my back is not quite where it needs to be.
	And then he also wanted me to write the book.
	So this is my first experience with learning about The reality of imagination.
	Now, Dave, I've never told anybody this.
	You'll be the first person, you and the listeners, you'll be the first person.
	I sat on the couch, and my father said, well, if you want to practice your forms, you know, in martial arts, the forms are those, when you see us practice fighting ourselves, and you're supposed to imagine that there's somebody you're fighting, and you start fighting that person, and that's how you strengthen your move, your speed, and all of that kind of stuff.
	Well, my father said, well, you, since your back is kind of messed up, do it in your mind.
	So I said, okay, I'm gonna do it in my mind.
	So I'm doing it in my mind.
	And while I'm seeing myself practicing the movements, this black figure shows up.
	So I said, oh, so I'm fighting with this black figure, but as I'm fighting, I can feel every bit of movement.
	I mean, it feels like I'm punching for real.
	It feels like I'm kicking for real.
	And so I'm thinking, What in the world is going on?
	So I said, I'm just fighting with the creature and practicing my moves and I'm still strengthening my revelation and learning how to fight.
	Ooh, I can do that.
	Oh, that was a great move.
	Man, it wasn't long after, it's like two weeks after, I'm sitting on the couch and I feel something on my head.
	I was like, what is that on my head?
	I said, there's a spirit here and he's on my head.
	So I said, I'm going to fight it.
	And so I imagined myself fighting with this being.
	And again, bam, he shows up.
	But again, I'm noticing it feels really real.
	It feels like I'm kicking, I'm punching.
	But the kicker for me at this time, I'm still thinking, well, this is just imagination.
	And until I realized I couldn't control him.
	And he was winning, and he was beating me up.
	He was no longer partnering with me to teach me.
	He was kicking my butt.
	So I finally won, and I laid back on the couch in just amazement, like, what is happening?
	And when I laid back, I was as tired and sore.
	Every place he hit me, I was sore on my body.
	My neck was sore from where he had jammed my neck.
	Everything was sore.
	And I slept for like 12 hours.
	I was so tired after that.
	Now, my normal night of sleep is five to six hours.
	My wife couldn't figure out why I was so sleepy.
	And so, from that experience, I learned, hmm, there's more to this imagination And things then, then we would like to believe.
	And there may be some of the things we see and that is unreal as we'd like to think.
	Because, you know, like, you know, you and Michael know, when God first opened my eyes, I could see with them wide open.
	So I came home one night from, that was the first time I saw a demon cast out of a person.
	That freaked me out.
	And it was at the same church.
	This time it was another guy came in.
	And so I get home that night, and I'm looking out my window, and as I'm looking out the window, there's some eyes that are looking back at mine.
	And I was going, what in the world is happening?
	I turn around, and it looks like I'm like, you know those waves when you're seeing in the spirit, like underwater?
	Yep.
	And I turn around, and there are demons in the room, circling me, looking at me, and now I'm really, like, freaking out, because I don't know what's happening.
	So I get on the bed, I try to cover my eyes, With my arms and the covers, but I could still see through everything.
	I could see the dressers, I could see everything.
	And so I'm going, I'm kind of freaking out.
	So I'm sleeping with the lights on.
	And that's when I started battles with the sleep paralysis.
	And that's how I met some of the other ones.
	Like, you know, I used to rap.
	Didn't think nothing of my rap stuff.
	But part of my salvation story was I was rapping and really wasn't going anywhere.
	And But I always had these dry spells where I just had like a writer's block.
	I couldn't figure out what's going on with the writer's block.
	So what I would do is I started by sitting in the dark and I would sit in the dark and wait until I heard something.
	Didn't know I was listening at the time, but I knew I would hear a thought.
	And when I heard it would always, if I got the first line, it would lead and it would just run like a prophecy.
	It would just run.
	I could write for days off this inspiration.
	After a while, that didn't work.
	So I was like, hmm, So I sat in the dark and started thinking of all of the painful experiences of my life.
	I don't know why I did that.
	I guess something told me.
	So I'm thinking of all, and I made myself angry.
	And now I'm writing in the dark and while I'm angry.
	But then that didn't work.
	So then I started listening to crazy music.
	And it was drawing me in deeper and deeper and deeper.
	And eventually I was, my songs took on such a crazy, crazy sound.
	And they were so dark and dreary.
	And I remember I was going, you know, it was just crazy.
	And I remember my friends used to say, Kevin, you're good at this, but we can't listen to your songs.
	Because for whatever reason, when we listen to your songs, it paints pictures in our minds of scary things.
	I will never forget that.
	And I was like, what?
	I was a little offended.
	So that's when I really started paying attention.
	And that was how I got saved because One day, I got mad at a family member, and I had a vision.
	But in the vision, I was doing something hideous.
	I was murdering the person, and I said, something is wrong.
	I said, something is wrong.
	So then I had to really turn, and you know, I grew up in the church, so I knew at least where to go.
	So I went to God, and he helped me out with this.
	So when I've learned the value of imagination, that's why when I teach people about listening and hearing, it's really important.
	Imagination, because Like I talk about daydreaming.
	I've always been a daydreamer.
	So I teach parents, if you got kids that daydream, you need to pay attention to what they're looking at because God explained to me that daydreaming is to the spirit around what listening is to the natural realm.
	So when you turn off the TV and give your wife your attention, it's the same thing with your daydream.
	Cause you know, it captures your attention.
	Something captures your attention.
	And the longer you look at it, the clearer it is, the more you can hear it.
	And so this is what they were doing to me when I was, when I was rapping.
	And so that's why I knew that, okay, I have, I'm operating the same way.
	You know how, and you know, cause I've heard you talk about how God deals with you too, where he'll speak to you and you'll get concepts and ideas and you can, you know, prophetic inspiration.
	I used to get the same kind of prophetic inspiration when I was writing rap songs.
	Same exact same, the same exact method of listening and hearing and almost transcribing something else.
	But the kicker was I met the spirit after my eyes opened because I didn't know anything.
	I had gotten saved, didn't know anything about it.
	But when I laid on my bed one day and I went into one of my little daydreams where I was supposed to be getting ready for work and I'm hearing this nice lyrics.
	I said, oh, it's a freestyle happening in my head.
	So I lay back on the bed, eyes wide open, and I'm thinking, Oh man, that's a nice, I need, I'm not rapping no more, but that sure is a nice freestyle that's happening.
	For people who know freestyle, that's when you just talk off the top of your head, like prophecy.
	So, I'm, and all of a sudden, I start to think, well, if I'm thinking, then where's this song coming from?
	If those are my thoughts, and I'm sitting here thinking, wow, that's nice.
	Then who is that rapping?
	When I said that, he pinned me down to the bed and burst out laughing.
	And his laughing was just like mine and your voice.
	I was glad that he had immersed me completely in the spirit realm and I could hear it just like that.
	His voice.
	So the demon that had been giving you the dark rap songs came back and was giving you this different type of a flow.
	Yep.
	And then he jumped on you and pinned you down.
	Yep.
	And that's when I started going, But those experiences to me have been so valuable because I know that, you know, the word spirit means wind or breath.
	It's really just inspiration.
	And so, I tell people, when you're listening for God's voice, one of the things you definitely want to pay attention to, because when he says, and Peter was filled and spoke, it just simply means he got inspired.
	And God will inspire you, he'll capture your attention, inspire you, and then you'll have this rush of thoughts That if you pay attention to you, you can dialogue with.
	You write them down.
	You can say, well, God, what about this?
	And he'll give you an answer.
	He'll give you a response.
	Sometimes it'll be in a picture.
	Sometimes it'll be in, you know, words, but it's the same thing.
	So when that thing pinned me down, he taught me to, I have told Satan and his dummies so many times, I said, look, y'all come around all the time.
	And y'all had more advantage over me when I was a complacent Christian than now.
	Because every time you come around, I'm going to fight with you, I'm going to go ask God questions, I'm going to learn from the experience, and then I'm going to go tell everybody what I learned from my encounters with y'all.
	You're losing battle!
	I tell them that every time.
	I say, y'all are so dumb.
	Y'all are so dumb.
	This is where I've learned so much from fighting with them.
	I've had to fight with them.
	It's gotten, it's become normal to fight with them.
	I mean, I had to train my kids how to deal with them because I fight with them so much.
	Cause they really don't like what I know.
	And I love to tell what I know.
	Like, you know, I give it out on free for you on YouTube.
	I tell what I know.
	So they hate me all the more.
	Well, I love your revelation about the imagination.
	This is something that I think, man, if people could get a handle on the concept that we engage the spiritual realm through what most of us call our imagination.
	If calling it the imagination is a stumbling block, then call it something else.
	It's your mind.
	It is your spiritual gateway.
	It's the doorway to the spiritual realm.
	As soon as you Like, you know, because you talk to your kids about their daydreams.
	You know, I was a daydreamer too when I was a kid.
	People told me, don't daydream, you know, be serious, do your homework, do your things, and they were always encouraging you not to daydream.
	But, like you, I have found that when you relax, and you're at peace, and you let your mind sort of drift toward The spiritual realm, when you start to think about God, focus on the kingdom, focus on something that the Holy Spirit may start a conversation with you about.
	The more you focus on that and the more you engage those thoughts, the farther and farther down that road you can go.
	And if it's a demon who is having that conversation with you and you're engaging that demon, you're engaging in that conversation, it's going to go further and further and further.
	Down the road that the demon wants to go down.
	And it all comes in through our imagination.
	It all does.
	You know, God said to me one day, I like to listen to my Bible.
	I got like the dramatized version.
	So I'm listening to it, and I'm noticing that every time somebody gets ready to encounter God, that they'll fall asleep and have a dream.
	And God said, it's just that close.
	That's a dream away.
	Just an imagination away.
	And people don't realize it's just an imagination away.
	If I could tell you how many times I've had some crazy experiences in the ambulance between calls, literally at like two o'clock in the afternoon, we just clear a hospital, drop off a patient, we get in the ambulance.
	I'm getting a little tired.
	I close my eyes and bam, I'm asleep for like two minutes, but I will be totally in the spiritual realm doing something.
	Engaging some angel or some demon, or the presence of God just comes over me, and I'm getting caught up into the heaven doing something.
	Like, it's, the spiritual world is that close to what you're doing.
	People never ask, why does God say so much about the mind?
	Like, gird up the loins of your mind, he gives you the helmet of sound.
	Why does he say so much about it?
	And why did he tell us to transform it?
	It's really very important.
	In our relationship with God.
	And if we're not careful with how we handle it, that's when we get in trouble.
	So I try to stress to people, I say, look, God has a mind.
	Demons have a mind.
	Angels have a mind.
	We have a mind.
	So God starts showing me this commonality in the scriptures as it relates to the voice of God, or at least as it relates to the mind.
	He was like, Kevin, you're really in both places at the same time.
	It's just a matter of what you choose to be aware of.
	He said, Because your spirit has a mind.
	He said, I have a mind.
	Demons have a mind.
	Angels have a mind.
	And he shows me where Samuel is.
	Remember the witch at Endor bring him back?
	Samuel has his mind with him.
	His body's on earth, but his mind has gone with his spirit.
	And so we're always there.
	We just have to know how to become aware of it.
	Yeah, one of the big verses that helps me understand that whole thing a lot is when Jesus said, be careful what you hear and be careful how you hear.
	So he was telling people, look, there are doors, there are gateways, and what you allow into your life through the things that you hear, through the things that you focus on, the messages you listen to, the voices that you listen to in your mind, What you hear and how you hear become the rudder that steers your life.
	And if you start to focus on what the Holy Spirit is talking about, what you hear is what the Holy Spirit is saying or what the demons are saying.
	How you hear?
	How do you listen?
	Do you listen actively?
	Do you listen passively?
	Do you engage the Holy Spirit when he's having a conversation with you?
	Do you engage the demons when they want to start speaking to you?
	The way in which you listen to those voices really does kind of become the rudder and the direction that your life goes.
	Absolutely.
	So Kevin, I want to talk about one more thing and then I'm gonna probably let you go because we've been on here for a while.
	We had a conversation a while back on Facebook Because the Lord was teaching you about how demons cause people to be sick, and you had some interesting experiences with that.
	Can you talk a little bit about that?
	Sure.
	Well, because God talks to me about various things, and I'm going to share it, I understand what Paul says when he says, because of the multitude of revelations, a demon was assigned his life.
	These assignments where, where they come after me, uh, for things that God says.
	So he talks to me and I get in trouble, especially if he talks to me about stuff with them and I get in trouble.
	So what they had begun doing is every time he talks to me, they send sickness to the house.
	I was like, man, what's going on?
	People keep getting sick in the house.
	So, and what they were trying to do was jump from the kids to me, but they couldn't get to me.
	They kept trying and it wouldn't stay.
	And so I said, okay, I'm going to have to start teaching these children about how to resist.
	Still teaching them.
	They've gotten better.
	So that's where it started.
	But one of the things he began showing me is, like, Christians will say Christians can't have demons.
	But when you look at Jesus' ministry, except in Mary Magdalene's case, you see Jesus, he doesn't cast out spirits of fear.
	He doesn't cast out anger, malice, lust.
	He doesn't cast out those spirits.
	Now, we know that they exist and we know we cast them out, and I think he didn't put that in there because he knew we would figure that part out, which we have.
	But the part that people generally miss is they don't look at the fact that all of Jesus' ministry in casting out demons, the majority of it was casting out demons that caused some kind of sickness.
	It was deafness.
	It was seizures.
	It was always something sick.
	Fever.
	Peter's mother had a fever.
	Yep.
	And so, but I couldn't argue that with anybody.
	I was like, man, you know, Christians will try to argue down about whether Christians can have a demon.
	And so, one day I was reading Acts, where Paul is carrying handkerchiefs from his body, and for the first time I saw where it says, it says, the handkerchiefs came from Paul's body and were taken to the sick, and sickness It says, and disease left them and evil spirits went out of them.
	I said, well, hold on.
	That's two separate things.
	And they're both believing the same thing.
	Sick people.
	I said, there's a relationship here.
	And so then God really started talking because then he started showing me how all of these things related to the law.
	So when you look at the law, they are, uh, fever is one of the curses in the law, uh, mental illness, It's one of the curses in the law.
	So you can see all of these different curses in the law.
	And then for the first time I started noticing that every time Israel lost a battle, it was because of the curse of the law.
	So, you know, cause we read the Bible, we kind of separate things.
	It's like we isolate this experience, like with Achan, when at the city of Ai, we think, Oh, well he just stole the Babylon.
	He did what God told him not to do.
	And so, and took the stuff and hid it in his tent and he'd be covered in.
	And so, but, When you go back to the law, God already tells you what's going to happen.
	And so what he did was directly related to that.
	And so the sicknesses and disease were related to that law.
	And so when Jesus comes on the scene, Jesus comes to Israel at a time when they've been, they're under the curse of the law, which means They're under the curse of the law, and you can see that demons are involved in all of these curses.
	So God is explaining all of this to me.
	I've never thought about it before, never noticed that Jesus came during that period.
	You just think he just came to Israel during a time when it was under Roman rule, but you don't tie the fact that the reason they're under Roman rule, when he said, I will make you the bottom and not the top, was because they had been disobedient and they were now living under this curse of the law.
	And you also see that because there are a lot of strange things that Jesus says that you'd be like, well, why would Jesus say that?
	He says to a man, go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.
	He's like, well, why would Jesus say that?
	Because up until that point, Jesus hadn't died.
	And so this man was still subject to those curses in the law.
	And Jesus himself alludes to the fact that the problem in his life was directly related to what he had done.
	Then you'll see the disciples say, Who was born blind?
	This man or his parents?
	And it seems like a strange question until you realize they're asking those questions because they're asking them in accordance with their law.
	They understood that if somebody was born blind or some sickness, it was because somebody had broken the law.
	It was all related to the law.
	Yeah, but I've heard preachers preach that and say, oh, they just made light of it.
	And I did too, until God started talking to me about this.
	And so, then he starts to show me, when Satan comes at Job, all of the things he did to Job were in the curses of the law.
	His children were attacked, his land was attacked, and on the other side of that, all of the things that Job experiences are because he had been faithful and obedient, and God says, you'll have, your children will be blessed, you'll be multiplied, you know, Everything will be blessed.
	So are you referring to the curses and blessings in Deuteronomy?
	Right.
	Okay.
	Right.
	You can see those in Job.
	You can see both of them in Job.
	So God is teaching me, had been teaching me all this so that I could make this stance.
	Because when Paul says, we have been redeemed from the curse of the law, they understood what that meant.
	And the church doesn't understand what that means.
	God just threw away the law, but he literally removes the power of the curse of the law.
	Well, one of the things that God began showing me was Satan had a job.
	And so you'll see an evil spirit went out from the Lord.
	You see passages like, and it seems strange.
	Why would an evil spirit go out from the Lord?
	That is until you go to Revelations and he says, well, you have no more job here, Satan.
	The blood has resolved this issue and you no longer have a job.
	He has no job because he can't enforce a law that is now dead.
	And so now he's just here kind of running around rampant.
	And so he doesn't literally have any right to this.
	So God said he don't have any legal right.
	He's operating outside of his right.
	And look, I was, I read your, your, uh, court of heaven dream.
	And I said, God is telling him the same thing because when you're in your court of heaven dream, you talk about going before the judge and you ask for the books to be open.
	And because you're going into it because the demon thinks he has a right.
	But there's nothing in the books because Jesus has resolved it.
	So he really doesn't have a right.
	He doesn't have a right.
	That's one of the things that I get into discussions with people who they come from the Word of Faith movement and they've been taught that there are no legal rights that the enemy has any longer to afflict us.
	So why are we going to court to try to remove a legal right that the enemy doesn't have in the first place anymore?
	Well, they're not understanding what the enemy is actually doing.
	What the enemy is doing now is illegal.
	It's unlawful.
	They don't have a legal right to afflict us with sickness.
	They think they do, but they don't.
	So, we have been given power and authority.
	Okay?
	What does authority mean?
	It means go out and arrest lawless criminals.
	Alright, so a criminal breaks into your house and robs your TV and your furniture.
	Well, he doesn't have a legal right to your stuff.
	He's a criminal.
	He's breaking the law.
	If he breaks the law, you take him to court and you get your stuff back.
	And that's all we're doing in the courts of heaven, is we're just apprehending these stupid demons who think they can go and put all this stuff on us.
	We take them to court and say, no, just judge, why don't you sentence him with whatever you think is good.
	I want my stuff back.
	Because they literally have nothing.
	So with that information, I always make my stand.
	Because they're going to come.
	They're going to come because they're going to still try to enforce what they believe they have a right to.
	And so for us, if we don't know our rights, then we don't stand.
	And especially, like, we're in healing ministry.
	But God doesn't promise us we're always going to pray for people that are non-contagious.
	So what do you do when you have to pray for somebody that's contagious?
	You will be inclined not to.
	Like Jesus had to cleanse leprosy.
	But that was contagious.
	It was highly contagious.
	And it was a gross disease.
	And so, for people who want to operate and heal, it's almost imperative that they understand their rights.
	Because they will try to attack.
	They will try to intimidate you.
	We're going to make you sick too.
	They're going to try to do that.
	So you have to stay on your ground.
	And then we know that sickness is used to oppress.
	You can't do anything from God on your sickbed.
	And so getting people to understand that and accept that.
	And I'll tell you, they tried to make me scared to teach that.
	I was like, man, people are going to think I'm crazy.
	They're going to think I'm, you know, going off the deep end with this one.
	Yeah.
	I get, gosh, if I could tell you how many messages a week I get from people saying, I want to go out and heal the sick.
	I want to have a healing ministry.
	I want to see miracles.
	But, I gotta get myself healed first.
	They've got something, whether it's multiple sclerosis or depression or asthma or something, they just have this mindset like, I can't go out and heal people until I get healed first.
	So they spend five or six years trying to get themselves healed and they never step out and heal anybody else.
	Well, guess what?
	You are doing exactly what the enemy wants you to do.
	The enemy has afflicted you with something and you are letting it prevent you from going out and healing other people.
	You know, my wife has a list of sicknesses as long as your arm and we have prayed.
	Oh yeah.
	She's got everything from leaky gut.
	She has chronic sinus problems.
	She's got food allergies.
	She's got all kinds of stuff, but she's been healed of some things.
	She had herniated discs in her back.
	She got healed.
	She had a torn rotator cuff and a frozen shoulder.
	She got healed.
	So we're doing warfare.
	We're getting her healed of things, you know, one at a time.
	But none of that stuff stops her from praying for people to be healed.
	I'm the same way.
	You know, I've got a few things I'd like to get healed of.
	I've been praying.
	People have prayed over me.
	I haven't been healed of it.
	But that doesn't stop me from going out and kicking some demon butt and getting people healed.
	And what I try to do, I try to tell them, I'm not trying to tell them that you'll never get sick.
	I try to tell them how to make your stand if you do.
	Because one of the things I said in one of the videos, and I thought I was going to get a lot of kickback from because people don't like to believe it.
	I said, demons know your thoughts.
	Well, do demons know your thoughts?
	Yes, they do.
	Yes, they do.
	And it's hard for them to accept that.
	They hate it.
	They hate to believe that.
	Because people think, oh, that means they're omniscient.
	No, it doesn't.
	It does not mean they're omniscient.
	To be omniscient means you know everything.
	Okay?
	All people don't understand is, like, when you go into a dream, and you're in a dream, and you're talking to somebody, you're not talking to them.
	You're exchanging thoughts back and forth.
	You know what they're thinking, and they know what you're thinking.
	Right.
	That's how communication is in dreams, right?
	Right.
	It's hard to communicate that to people.
	It's a spiritual world.
	It's a spiritual principle.
	Thoughts are exchanged from one mind to another.
	There isn't any talking going on.
	There isn't anybody hearing anything.
	Demons know your thoughts simply because that's how communication is done in the spiritual world.
	And you know what I tell people?
	I tell them, you know, when they ran across the demon that they couldn't cast out the disciples, Jesus said, they said, well, why couldn't we cast it out?
	He said, because of your unbelief.
	Well, how did the demon know they didn't believe?
	So they were able to perceive that while you might be saying one thing, you're really thinking something else, and they won't respond to you because they know.
	Kevin, how many church meetings have you been to where people are screaming, I'm standing on my authority!
	I'm claiming my authority!
	I am pleading the blood of Jesus!
	I am doing this!
	And they're screaming and hollering, and the whole time they're in nothing but unbelief and fear.
	Their mouth is saying one thing, but their spirit is saying something else, and nothing changes.
	And it don't change, because they know what they're thinking.
	And they're only going to respond to what you believe.
	Exactly.
	Which is going to come from the inside of you.
	You can say all you want.
	They know what you believe.
	They know what you believe.
	And they will only respond.
	One of the things I learned from them attacking me those early years, is they will only respond to authority.
	They know when you are afraid.
	And because I was afraid, that's why they were attacking me.
	And they were attacking me like every week for months.
	For months.
	So much so that I was 21, I was still at home.
	I was running up my parents' electric bill.
	They were gonna kick me out because I was scared to turn off the light.
	As long as I was afraid, they attacked me.
	The demons knew you were afraid.
	They sensed fear.
	And as long as they knew you were afraid, they knew they had They could just do whatever they wanted with you.
	And they were like dogs, and they were on me.
	And once I started, and this is where it goes back to where we started with trust.
	Once I started to say the name of Jesus, and they would back off, and once I began to realize, hey, hold on there, there's something here.
	Then I was like, oh, I have authority in that thing.
	Once I got that, oh, nothing, nothing, it didn't matter.
	Then it was game on for you.
	Game on.
	And that's why Jesus told his disciples, I give you authority over the power of the enemy.
	That's right.
	Because the power that the enemy has, the enemy has power.
	But what the enemy doesn't have is authority.
	Doesn't have authority.
	And so, our authority trumps their power.
	Every time.
	Every time.
	So, that's how I make my stand.
	Like, when they come around, and because I get to see them, when they come around, I can see them.
	So, my daughter can see them too.
	She knows that some of the ones that cause allergies and some of the other ones, and I tell people, the demons aren't illness, because there's two things left to say, demons and sickness.
	I mean, demons and sickness, but they are related.
	They can bring them, they can cause them.
	The demon is not the sickness itself, the demon causes the condition.
	Somehow, and I don't understand how this works, but you know, like demons that cause seizures or demons that cause asthma, They don't actually have the physical sickness themselves.
	The demon isn't the sickness.
	It causes it in your body.
	It sets up a situation where that condition happens in your body.
	Hard to describe, but that's what happens.
	Yeah, because I think they want... One way they set up conditions, and then one of the things God started talking to me about is the practical side.
	It's like, when I hurt my back, I'd legitimately hurt my back.
	And when I was taking my karate class, it was a legitimate injury and I strengthened it and did the exercises and got it all together.
	But one day I'm walking around, I was shoveling snow that year and I thought I hurt my back again, but I noticed there's something running around that ran into the room.
	I said, this is a spirit of pain.
	So I said, spirit of pain, get out of here.
	And so he left and the pain went.
	And so sometimes they take advantages of injuries that are already there.
	Oh yeah, that's classic.
	After Denise got healed of her herniated discs in her back, she went out and she was cleaning the pool, and she was scrubbing the floors, and she was doing housework she hadn't done for five or six months.
	But over the next two or three days, she would have these small twinges of back pain that would come back, and she knew it was a demon.
	So she would just rebuke the spirit of pain, And, you know, five or six hours later, it would come back.
	She would command it to leave and it would go.
	That happened two or three days, and then they finally gave up.
	She was standing against it and wasn't going to let it happen, and they quit.
	They had enough of it.
	They will.
	They will.
	They'll back up.
	If you make your stand, they will.
	They'll back off.
	They'll go find somebody else to harass who isn't going to make a stand against them, really.
	This is all interesting to me.
	I could talk about this stuff all day.
	I could too.
	How about if I have you back on the podcast sometime?
	Hey, that's good with me.
	You a talker.
	I'm a talker.
	Yeah.
	Well, I have company coming tonight and I got to clean my house.
	Denise has been cleaning the house while we've been talking.
	I'll tell her you said hello.
	She does have some pretty darn good stuff going on right now.
	She's working on a series of abstract paintings right now.
	They're kind of a little bit like landscapes, but they're abstract.
	I'm interested to see what that's going to look like when she's all done with it.
	But yeah, Kevin, it has been awesome talking to you, brother.
	I know, man, I know these conversations are going to help people.
	I'll put links to your books and your website in the podcast notes so people can find you.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	And I appreciate your time more than I can tell you, brother.
	Same here.
	Call anytime, Dave.
	Anytime.
	All right.
	I'll call you again sometime and we'll talk some more.
	OK.
	All right.
	All right.
	Thanks, man.
	Bye.
	Well, folks, that is our show for today.
	I hope you enjoyed it.
	Thanks for dropping by.
	If you're new to the podcast and you haven't been to my website, you might drop by and check out the articles I have there.
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