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June 9, 2025 - Project Camelot
01:16:04
MICHAEL FITZGERALD
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Time Text
I do want to say that I did talk to Michael as he went out the door about this piece of disinfo that I have been given.
And I'm going to go back to my contact with this.
But, I mean, it already sounded insane.
But they say they are not going to be launching a nuke in the waters north of Britain and trying to take out the city of London.
Why John Irwin thinks they are, I don't know why this other source was trying to float that, but they just say it's, you know, just info against Putin.
This is a NATO operation, I'm sure.
But it's disinfo, and I agree completely.
So just wanted to clarify that.
So we have Michael Fitzgerald here.
And this is really a delight because we kind of tracked him down.
It wasn't easy.
And I wanted someone else who could really talk about, you know, the Germans, UFOs, the things that he...
And the two are quite a compliment.
Welcome, Michael Fitzgerald.
He's a wonderful author, and he has, I think, a few books left if you want them.
They're not so easy to come by, so highly recommend those.
Well, thank you everybody.
In the first place, I'd like to say...
In the first place, I'd like to thank our hosts for providing such a wonderful location, and I'd like to thank Kerry and Neil for inviting me to speak here.
I'm afraid I haven't got any slides, which I should have done, but, you know, it was all done at the very last minute, and I didn't have time to organise, but I will do it in the future.
I normally do with my Zoom talks, which I've done quite a few of.
The next one's coming up on the 30th of July.
That's on the Hollow Earth.
And I've got another one in either November or December.
It hasn't been completely finalised, which will also be on the Nazis and the UFOs, where I shall go into much more detail in that talk than I'll.
But anyway, I hope you can bear with me, and it's lovely to see you all.
And I'd like to start off by talking about, because a lot of people have...
There are many...
Some people, for example, Herbie Brennan, actually think that the whole thing was entirely an occult rite and that it was completely everything.
That wasn't actually the case.
On the other hand, you get people, other people, that take the opposite point of view and say, oh, well, nothing really went on.
It was all a load of nonsense and so on.
Well, the truth, as so often, is somewhere in between the two.
And I'm going to start off with a little bit, but I'm sorry, I'm trying to get the projection right.
Hitler, as a young man, grew up in a very small place in the Austrian-Bavarian border.
And then, as a teenager, he went to Vienna, where he met a very interesting character called Joseph Greiner, whose book, unfortunately...
and Greiner taught Hitler all kinds of things.
Everything from astrology and graphology and numerology and dousing in particular.
Hitler used to spend a great deal of time wandering around the woods near Vienna, dousing.
Greiner also taught Hitler the importance of which, of course, he showed throughout his political career.
Of the will.
He believed that you could use willpower not just to control people, but even material objects, like psychokinesis.
and this was something that Greiner was absolutely the man who introduced Hitler to all this stuff.
And although Hitler was still young and he wasn't yet here, obviously at that stage he had no idea he was ever going to become Chancellor of Germany, he grasped being an inadequate man who...
He was full of resentment and inferiority, and he became obsessed with the idea that he could achieve power through the use of controlled, directed will.
and this actually really is something that throughout the whole of his life even in the last weeks of the Second World War he still clung on to he somehow he thought only we all have the willpower we can still win
Then, of course, he also met and, well, he didn't meet, but he came across the work of another guy called Guido von List who introduced him to the idea of the swastika, the superiority of the Arian race and various methods.
The runes were particularly an importance, although Himmler was more obsessed with the runes than Hitler, but he certainly believed that they could produce words of power that would actually transform, you know, the material world.
But the real guy that influenced Hitler was a very strange guy called Adolf Lance.
Who, again, he met in Vienna.
Lance was, of course, as was many of these guys in the early years of the Nazi Party, not that he was ever a Nazi as such, was a megalomaniac.
He liked to style himself Baron Lance von Liebenfeldt.
But of course it wasn't remotely entitled to that.
And he went on from this to...
And which Hitler bought copies of when he was in Vienna, living in Vienna.
And among other things, Lance regarded Jews and Slavs as subhuman and the result of interbreeding between humans, inverted commas, which in his views was Aryans, and apes.
And he also was the first person specifically to advocate the final solution.
And he wanted to exterminate all Jews and all Slavs.
Obviously, an area that became crucially influential on them.
But even so, Hitler in 1913 and 1914 was still just a drifter.
He moved to Munich in 1913, basically because he was a draft dodger.
He was trying to avoid military service in the Austrian army.
And he moved to Schwabing, which was the artist's quarter of Munich.
And there he came across all kinds of people.
In fact, they held a special birthday party for the artist's quarter, actually.
People forget Hitler was actually a very talented painter.
I've seen some of his paintings.
In one of my books that's unfortunately out of print, my biography of Hitler, which was chosen by the good book guide as the best historical biography, but that unfortunately is out of print, I've got some reproductions of some of Hitler's paintings in that book.
Anyway, he was there in Schwerving and he met two rather weird guys called Alfred Schuller and called Derles.
Now Derles in particular was a complete, he came up with the idea of world conquest and destroying everybody and you had to be hard and you had to be completely undefined.
And all these poisonous sort of ideas, all this heady mixture of megalomania and racism and superiority were incredibly important to a drifter, a bohemian, a loner, a man with an inferiority complex, to use a psychological term, like Hitler, who really saw, well, you know, at least I'm an Aryan, I can be superior.
And then first of all, The war came and of course things changed a bit.
And they changed dramatically in 1918 when, of course, what happened, as we all know, Germany lost the war.
And one of the first consequences of that was that Germany was in revolution.
Now, Bavaria in particular, where Hitler had gone back to by the end of the war, was in danger of becoming a communist republic.
And, in fact, it was called Red Bavaria.
And the initial leader of this movement, The thing who took power after the November 1918 thing was a Jew called Kurt Eisner, who Hitler idolised.
And, in fact, one of his first acts as Chancellor was to arrest the man who assassinated Eisner.
Hitler was an active and enthusiastic member of Soviet Faria and was arrested by federal troops for firing on them when they recaptured the city.
And then suddenly he changed sides, quickly pretended, oh, we've been doing everything.
There's actually photographic and video evidence of Hitler as a member of the Soldiers' Council and of being at Kurt Eisner's funeral.
So, you know, he was lying through his teeth, as often was the case.
But anyway.
Then, of course, after that, he was picked up by military intelligence.
And one of the things they discovered was that he was a good speaker.
And so they got him to start giving talks, first of all to other soldiers, and then eventually they started getting him to become an undercover intelligence.
He was sent to investigate various political parties, one of which was called the German Workers' Party, which later, once he took it over, changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers' Party, the Nazi Party.
And in 1919, Hitler went along there.
He went along to their first meeting.
Now, he wasn't a complete stranger to him because he'd actually been to a lecture by one of its members, a chap called Gottfried Feder, who was a huge influence, particularly on Hitler's economics.
But he was a member of the Viral Society and the Tool Group, which I'll talk about in a minute.
It was a very small meeting, but he did make a speech, and the leader of that party, a railway worker called Anton Drexler, said, my God, he's got the gift of the gap.
We could use him.
So they rushed after him, gave him...
And then eventually Hitler thought about it and decided to join the party.
Now, when he joined the party, the top people in it, they were not real politicians in the same ordinary sense of the word.
They were not like the guys that were in the social democratic or...
They were very weird people indeed.
The most important of them was Dietrich Eckhart, a man who actually was, in many ways, Hitler's spiritual godfather.
And Eckhart was a man who, he was a very...
He spent quite a lot of his time in a lunatic asylum, but he was also able, because he'd become a very successful playwright, to introduce Hitler to lots of contacts.
He also taught him how to use a knife and fork.
And various other social graces which he was completely ignorant of.
And Eckhart was a member of the Tool Group and the Viral Society.
It began as an antiquarian thing, but then it got involved in politics.
But Thule was based on the idea that there was a lost land called Thule, which was a fragment of Atlantis, the last surviving fragment of Atlantis.
And they believed it was somewhere in the region of the North Pole and that it had been the centre of a lost Aryan civilisation.
And that was really something that intrigued and fascinated a hell of a lot of Nazis.
And as a former Nazi who then defected in 1939 said, at bottom, every German has one foot in Atlantis.
And that was very much the case.
They were primarily more antiquarian, but Vril worked hard.
On what you might call more practical things.
They were essentially concerned with trying to use what you might call occult, paranormal, whatever, to influence actual reality.
And it started before.
Hitler never appears to have joined either of them.
We know he didn't join at all because...
An obscure member called Johannes Herring kept records of all the meetings of the tool groups and there's no mention of Hitler in any of them.
But Vril was a bit different because they did try...
A lot of his early Nazi leaders, Eckhart was tremendously powerful.
Alfred Rosenberg, a man whose book, The Myth of the 20th Century, was a bestseller.
And it was the second most popular Nazi book and was regarded, even by Hitler himself, as second only to Mein Kampf in terms of what the faithful should be reading.
And these guys were up there and they were very obsessed in the Vril Society with the idea of Vril Power.
Now Vril Power as such is a name that came from a 19th century novel by the English writer Lord Lytton.
And he wrote a book called The Coming Race.
And that was based on the idea of a superior race of subterranean beings living under the ground.
And the idea was that they controlled this force called Vrilya, which could be, you know, you could equate it with chi, with prana, with, you know, kundalini, or with telluric energy.
Lytton himself compared it with electricity, but then he was 19th century, and that was probably the nearest thing he could come up with.
that that was very much the case.
And now Vril was very much involved in pushing this type of agenda and they also Sorry, I'm trying to get the volume right.
They also were concerned with the idea, they thought that there was secret...
And that they were actually going to be able to communicate with them, if they could master real power, they would be able to be on the same level as these subterranean beings.
Now, this, okay, you can say, it sounds wacky, that they spent a great deal of time working on rituals to do it.
One of which was very bizarre, which you had to magnetise some particular metal, I forget which off the top of my head, in some field of Saturn.
There was another one which involved, which is obviously what most of them would have done, and probably equally unlikely to produce real, sitting in front of, sitting or standing in front of various images and chanting words of power.
Anyway, the theory was that you get this rule power and you will become masters of the world.
And that was, this is the type of, Hitler spent, His formative years from 1911, 1909 to 1923 or so, he was exposed to these ideas on a regular basis.
And Eckhart died, so he couldn't take any further.
that all the other guys in the Royal Society at Rosenberg, Feder, Hess and so on, all went on Himmler, they all went on to become top Nazi leaders.
And although Hitler, for a Actually, he was just lying for his teeth.
He was actually just as into all these things as the other guy.
But he didn't like to admit it, because he knew it would cost him popular support if the extent to which he was dabbling in this type of thing was known.
And it has to be said that the German people as a whole, although they might have been Broadly supportive of the Nazis because of economic recovery, stability, and so on, they did not go along with these things.
Most of them didn't even know about them.
Himmler's neo-pagan family, They thought, oh God, he's another one of these crackpot things.
They didn't take much notice of them, but nevertheless, they were still doing them.
Now there was a lot of things that they did do, and some of which are not particularly.
Alternative energy, for example, was...
because of the shortage of raw materials and fuels, an area where they were very, very interested.
In 1919, there was...
and they said that the forthcoming saviour of Germany was halved by the door.
And he would be the next owner of the Spear of Destiny, which is the Hofburg Spear held in the Vienna Hofburg Museum at Vienna.
And, of course, Hitler did end up taking that when he annexed Austria in 1938.
He took that off.
In fact, they tried to keep it from the Allies when they were losing the war, but the Americans managed to find it.
That was an interesting thing, that he was obsessed with sacred objects and sacred things.
Now, in 1930 and 31, there are a couple of books actually published by the Vril Society.
The first one was Vril, just called Vril, the cosmic original energy.
In English, which, you know, claims that the Atlanteans had produced a spiritual dynamic technology, quotes.
And then the next year they produced a version called Weltdynamismus, World Dynamism, so the possibilities of free energy.
And these were 1930 and 1931.
The author was obviously a pseudonym because he called himself Johannes Taufer, which means John the Baptist in German.
So he was obviously a pseudonym.
Anyway, they were allowed...
in which he talks quite a lot about the rural society.
And he said it had a number of Tibetan members, including in particular a man known as the man with the green gloves, who had amazing powers of prophecy and used to be able to predict the results of the German general elections until 1933, when of course they stopped having them for a few years.
And he actually says that they were, you know, he doesn't give much detail to the concrete, but he does say that they were, you know, very, very active.
And of course, when the Russians entered Berlin, they did find some Tibetan corpses in the ruins who'd committed suicide.
So, what that was all about.
Anyway, now this brings me neatly onto the alternative energy thing.
Now, there were three guys, really.
One of them was fiercely anti-Nazi and refused Nikola Tesla.
I'm sure a lot of people have heard of him.
The Nazis were very interested in his work and tried to get him to work for them, but he refused.
He did consider doing it for the Russians, but he decided against it.
But there were two other guys who did.
One was called Karl Schappella.
Who worked on a device that he believed exemplified what he called cold ether.
Nowadays we call it zero point energy.
And that was taken...
And Schiapel had built some sort of machine that functioned after a fashion but wasn't sufficiently consistent to generate the energy that they needed.
On the other hand, Hans Kohler was quite different matter.
Now, he is a very interesting character.
He developed what he called a free energy device.
He didn't know how or why it worked.
Successive Nazi scientists, and even before, even under Weimar, because he started work in '23, They examined it.
They couldn't work out how or why it worked, but they all agreed it did.
And then after the war, when Kohler was captured by the British, he was interrogated by them, and his machine was tested by them, and they all agreed, yeah, it works, but we can't work out why.
And Kohler said, well, I don't know either.
It just goes to show.
And yet, since then, it's sunk without trace.
He seems to have been able to have generated energy with no apparent source.
And no wonder this is being kept quiet, because you can imagine how many billions the utility companies that are ripping us off royally would be losing if something like that could be available on a wide scale.
That's to give a slight contemporary twist to it.
And, oh yeah, Victor Schauberger, now he's another character, he believed that water was the blood of Mother Earth, and he thought that basically deforestation was actually not just harming the planet in terms of obvious ways, but it was also ruining the water supply, because he believed that the purest water was spring water, which was bubbling and active, whereas water...
It's lacking in the natural properties of spring water and so on.
And his ideas were taken up by the Agriculture Minister, Richard Daray.
A very interesting character, actually.
I thoroughly recommend reading up more about him.
There's a very good book on him by Anna Bramwell.
And, you know, he's very interesting.
He's really the spiritual grandfather of the whole Green Movement.
But that's an aside.
And, anyway, yeah, another thing they took up was ley lines, which was, they believed that could be associated with telluric power.
But, of course, they didn't have much time.
Chapwood Heintz was the main guy doing it, but he didn't really have a lot of things.
And then, of course, there was...
It's the world ice theory.
Not such.
Now he believed that the moon was made of ice, which I don't believe that, but he also believed that...
We've had more than one moon surrounding it.
Our moon was captured from outer space.
Now, that is actually not at all implausible, particularly when you consider that there are some rocks on the moon that are older than any rocks on Earth and some that are older even than our solar system.
So that is very interesting and also there's a particular element called creep, something or other, that contains things that...
an element that's not found anywhere on Earth, and yet it's on the Moon.
Anyway, this theory is...
His fervidest theory is that you get...
And as they get nearer, it creates what he called a leap tide and then you get flooding and so on.
Then it crashes down, of course.
Now, this was his explanation for everything from the ice ages and successive deteriorations.
You know, as such, that may or not, but of course his theory that the moon made ice is a bit ridiculous.
But anyway, Hitler believed in that.
And there was a whole group of people under Nazi Germany who did weather forecasts using herbigerium principles.
And in 1941, they told Hitler gladly, oh yeah, you can have a very mild winter in Russia in 1941.
And of course, by God, they did not.
They had anything but a mild winter.
And that's an interesting thing actually, because sometimes you wonder,
author of many works on Atlantis and various operatives and so on, and Spence and this Herbiger.
They corresponded regularly.
So it makes you wonder if maybe Spence leaned on in to falsify the weather forecast deliberately.
It would not be the first time.
Goodness knows we were trying every dirty trick in the book during the war to try and win just as everybody else was.
So that's a possibility.
And Goering, of course, to come to Goering, he believed in the hollow earth theory.
Now this was...
Now, he started off as a pilot, and he was captured, like many pilots.
He was shot down, and he spent years in a prisoner of war camp.
And during there, he read this magazine by an American guy called Cyrus Teed, called The Flaming Sword, in which he put forward this idea that the Earth was hollow, and that we lived on the inside of it.
We all lived on the inside of the Earth.
Now, Bender wasn't content just to accept that.
He decided to improve on the theory.
So he said, yeah, it's not just that.
It's that we are...
But everything is phantom.
Everything revolves around the sun and all the planets and the stars.
There are optical illusions revolving around our inner Earth, which is the fixed center of the universe.
And this was actually so influential that not only did Goering believe it, but senior officers in the German Navy believed it.
And in 1942, they actually spent money sending an expedition to the island of Rügen, using precious scientific, very rare, the state-of-the-art scientific, because they wanted to prove that, And they failed.
They did try earlier.
In 1933, they attempted to launch a rocket from Magdeburg to New Zealand.
But although they made a few testings, it never actually got off the ground.
It never became successfully, and it would have cost a fortune anyway.
So that was an attempt to prove that the Earth was, because the theory was, if you could go, you know, it would just go around.
But it wasn't actually the case.
So after that, of course, Bender, the guy, the whole of Earth, was thrown into a concentration camp.
And, you know, that was the end of the thing.
The theory was banned.
I'll quickly go on to astrology.
Now that's an area which, again, has very interesting things.
In 1923, of course, was the year when Hitler made his notorious Munich Putsch when he tried and failed to take over power in Bavaria.
Now, earlier on that year, a woman member of the Nazi party had contacted the astrologer Elisabeth Ebertan and sent her a decadent, Now, actually, she got the time of Hitler's birth wrong, but that's another matter.
Anyway, on the basis of the mistaken date of birth, Ebertin drew up this horoscope and said, oh yes, he's a man of action who can expose himself to danger for the sake of his country and could become the saviour of the future of Germany.
And then, of course, after 1923, November 23, she became the most famous and successful astrologer in Germany.
Because, of course, the anonymous horoscope had been that of Hitler's, even though she got the date of birth wrong, time of birth wrong.
But, you know, that's the way it goes.
And she was never persecuted, unlike many astrologers.
Even after the crackdown in 1941, she was never persecuted.
She was always left alone and always said, oh yeah, her thing did me a power of good, and I'm very glad she did.
Now, prophecy, even direct prophecy is interesting, because that came in.
Now, there was a very interesting character.
Again, you wonder why some of these people got involved, but anyway.
This was a man whose professional name was Jan-Erik Hannussen.
His real name was Herschel Steinschneider, and he was...
But he actually, one thing he did, he had a huge influence on Hitler.
That's what he taught him, which up until the late 1920s, Hitler had been a good speaker, but he hadn't been making full use of what you call body language.
And he taught him, Jan Harneson taught him how to use body language.
You know, his gestures, his body, and so on, to be absolutely more powerful, more effective than he was before.
And he actually prophesied the burning of a large public building in Berlin in a couple of weeks before the Reichstag burnt down.
And I know there are lots of conspiracy theories about that.
But actually that was done by Van de Luper because he was a serialised and independent anti-Nazi witnesses agree with that.
But anyway, that's a separate issue.
He tolerated a lot.
When Hitler became, he might not, as I say, publicly Hitler went in for this, oh, I'm a respectable jerk, I'm respectable, I'm a Christian sort of thing.
But he allowed all these guys like Himmler and Hess and Goering and so on to go around doing their thing.
And he allowed them to spend ridiculous amounts of money.
I mean, Himmler spent more.
On his sort of fantasy things, like Wevelsburg Castle and so on and the SS, which he saw as an all-new order of Teutonic Knights and trying to revive them, than the Americans did on the Manhattan Project.
I mean, that is the extent to which it was publicly funded.
It is extraordinary.
At this point, I'm going to come on through very briefly.
I'm used to talking perhaps on one or two subjects rather than trying to cover such a wide swathe.
So I do apologise if it's a bit skimpy in detail.
Now, there have been claims made about the alleged crash of a flying saucer in 1936.
But these claims were not even put forward until the early 1980s, and interestingly enough, every one of them has been put forward by people who've A, been caught out on lies on other subjects, and B, are Holocaust deniers, but that's another matter.
There is, however, evidence of genuine activity involving UFOs under the Nazis.
Now, some people may or may not, I don't know, have heard of UFOs.
There's one that an Italian designer called Belluzzo worked on, and he was the first person after the war, admittedly, In 1950, to talk about it.
And he didn't give very many details initially, although later he sketched it out a bit more.
but he admitted he had worked on disc-shaped projects.
And that's not at all surprising because, you know, the Nazis were working on every conceivable form of alternative I mean, they broke the sound barrier twice and things like that, long before Chuck Yeager.
But of course it was during the war when pilots were being forced to.
And they were working, there was an interesting guy called Arthur Sack, who basically, he was a farmer, but he had a hobby of model aircraft, and he had, he went to this show, and he had this, not one of the model aircraft there flew, but Sack was so exasperated, because his wasn't, he picked it up and threw it, and it flew a bit then.
Now what was interesting, In itself, the deputy head of the Luftwaffe was watching, and he was very interested in this circular design.
So he commissioned SAC to start building these circular aircraft for the Luftwaffe.
And although none of them ever flew successfully, they had numerous test flights, and they kept crashing all the time.
or when they either couldn't get off the ground or they were crashing all the time.
But that was one.
That was as early as 1936.
SAC started on that.
But it wasn't really successful.
Then, of course, you have another thing.
The Sri Bahávamol are allegedly...
Now, it's very dubious because nobody has ever been able to track down any actual record of a Klaus Harbour mole anywhere.
So whether he ever existed is dubious.
Certainly, Rudolf Schriever did exist.
Although, entertainingly, the German media didn't seem to be terribly aware of it because in the early 1980s, they gathered...
They obviously didn't even bother to check their own archives.
But anyway, Schriever certainly was an aeronautical engineer, and he did work.
But like Biluzo, he never claimed his things flew successfully.
He claimed that, yes, they were doing tests on saucer-shaped objects, they were doing tests on these disc-shaped aircraft, but that none of them flew successfully.
None of them could even manage short hops, let alone power-controlled things.
And then, of course, you have the best of all, which is the Fleischner one.
is undoubtedly the most serious and reputable evidence for successful disc-shaped aircraft during the war.
He was an engineer working at Penemunde, where the giant rockets and so on were being manufactured, which was the cutting edge of German scientific technology.
And Fleissner...
And what's more, Fleissner went late off the war.
He went off to America.
And in the early 50s, he took out a patent for a flying saucer.
He was also involved with Avro Canada in their V7, which didn't quite make the grade.
But he was certainly involved with that.
Now, I'm not going to say more than that, but there certainly seems evidence that his craft flew successfully.
Now, I'm not going to say more than that, because obviously so much...
data was destroyed or partly by the Nazis, partly by the Allies or spirited away and lots of secret information is no doubt hidden away.
But I mean it's very curious that after Operation Paperclip where of course Nazi scientists were...
and don't forget the Royal And they were working on some incredibly advanced stuff.
You know, there's no doubt if the war had gone on, even another year or so, I mean, they were...
Actually, they were.
It was a good...
They were very, very far ahead indeed.
And contrary to the popular picture put out by propaganda, they were using different technology, different techniques to achieve their ends from what the Americans were.
But they were still able to get there.
They were only, you know, because by the time they developed it to a sufficient state, they didn't have anything that had the payload, and the ones with the payload didn't have the range, so they couldn't get it far enough away.
You couldn't basically transport them.
But if they'd had that, they would have been able to develop the atomic bomb quite soon.
And, you know, this is how it goes.
Now, another thing I've been asking, somebody was mentioning out in the garden earlier on about Foo Fighters.
Now, Foo Fighters, of course, are not just a band.
They were, of course, a wartime phenomenon.
There are various, one or two of them were seen outside a certain area, but 99% of them were seen in France, Germany, Belgium, that area.
And they all, between 1943 and 1945, now they were very...
They didn't.
They appeared to be invisible to radar.
They appeared to be able to stalk pilots.
And there's different theories.
They could have been trying to jam aircraft engines.
If they were, they didn't succeed.
But they stopped abruptly when the Allies finally conquered that area of Germany.
So it's very much the case.
So clearly some German secret weapon.
And so I've got a chapter about it in...
And this is an area where really they were hugely in advance.
I mean, they more or less got...
They got to develop...
They were fantastically quick on this.
Now, I don't know, really.
You can argue how much of this, you know, I know there are those who would say, oh, well, this is all brought to them by aliens.
now I'm not going to say that I don't believe that not because I don't believe in aliens not because I don't believe that aliens are interacting with us but because I think that we all And the human race has been on this planet for goodness knows how long.
And in that time, when you consider how abruptly we've advanced, even in the last couple of hundred years, think how long, two million years and whatever and so on.
And I do believe there have been lost civilisations in the past.
I think we've found traces of them, increasingly finding traces of them.
And I do believe that, you know, eventually we'll have to rewrite human history to a considerable extent because it is very selective in what it comes up with, I think.
and that is a shame because it doesn't do our ancestors credit that they deserve.
Essentially, I don't believe that we can Now, I know we can find...
We know this.
There's all kinds of things, both in terms of technology.
I mean, the whole thing with White Sands in particular is...
And that's the very time when Fernovan Brown and his team moved in there.
And in the same way, you have a whole range of people that have been describing things and behaviour and even sort of certain...
years after the war.
Speaking German and so on.
But, yeah, I suppose, yes, another thing I've been asked about is the Nazis in Antarctica.
Well, yeah, I mean, they did actually establish a colony there in 1936.
They basically nicked it from the Norwegians.
It was called Queen Maud's Land, and they called it Neusebia, Neusfaben.
And they set up a base there.
Of course, there's all sorts of theories about that, whereas the theory is that they produced a whole range of perhaps a million people emigrating there, supposed to be the nucleus of a new Nazi empire and so on.
You know, of course, in 1947, the American Admiral Richard Byrd led an expedition there called Operation High Jump, which was a fiasco, basically, because it was incompetently run and they didn't have the right equipment and they took far too many unnecessary things with them.
But, of course, it has been suggested that what happened was that they got their butts kicked by the Nazis in Antarctica.
I find it very difficult to believe that that is possible.
I mean, I've been on this earth long enough to know that lots of things that I thought were perhaps doubtful or not, but I'm sceptical in an open-minded way.
But I think it's unlikely, particularly given the type of ideology that Nazism represented, that they would have been content just to stay there and...
I think that they would have been zapping all over the place.
But, you know, that is an interesting theory.
I mean, I do find all these speculations fantastically interesting.
Just as I find it quite fun reading the ideas of Nazi bases on the moon and Mars.
But I don't actually believe that they're credible.
There may well be other...
In fact, I think there may well be life on most planets in the solar system.
But I'm not sure that any of it is Nazi in nature, except in terms of the type of people that are organising these things.
Yes, on the South Pole, have you done some research on what really is going on there and why it's so difficult for any news to come out of what's going on there?
Sorry, I've only done a limited amount on that particular subject because, you know, I've got so many other calls on my time.
But, yeah, I mean, I don't deny that there are funny things going on there.
I'm just not convinced that it's a secret Nazi base.
I think it's probably highly probable secret military intelligence projects and so on are going on there.
But I don't think it's directly connected with the Third Reich.
It may well be with the ideologies of it.
Well, have you followed the Admiral Byrd story?
Yeah.
All right.
And you understand that he was repulsed?
Yeah, well, that's one interpretation.
I personally think he was an incompetent idiot.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, his operation was overstaffed.
The planes were not accurately, they were not really airworthy, a lot of them.
And he didn't go there with the right attitude.
He wouldn't even need that many people for the expedition he went on.
And I think they went there for other purposes.
I think they had a lot of mechanical failures.
I think they had a lot of bad things.
But I don't think that they got kicked out by the Nazis.
I don't think that's the case.
I think that was basically human incompetence.
I see.
And you don't think that he was actually sent there to, in essence, invade and take it over?
Well, I think he was certainly sent there to try and take it over as a military exercise, yeah.
Frankly, military history is full of incompetent military ventures that have been cocked up by sheer human stupidity.
So I don't think you need to look further than that in his case.
Sorry?
I see.
And you're not familiar with a man named William Tompkins, are you?
No.
He's actually passed on now, but he was a baby.
And he worked on that in the NASA program.
And he also was something of an expert on all of this.
Yeah.
Okay.
Because obviously there's only so many people whose names you can come across.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you, yeah.
Yeah, sure, thank you.
Thank you, Kerry, yeah.
Just being plain devil's advocate here and based on what Kerry said and what I'm thinking anyway If you're going In as a warring faction as potentially bird was then why wouldn't you be well stopped with armory?
You know that's yeah, but I mean yeah, I agree that that you would but the point is I don't think he He did
If you are working on the assumption that when Berg got to Antarctica, he came across Nazis with all the weapons and things that they had, then that's a different matter.
Not quite the same thing.
I don't think he would even have done it on that basis because I think he would have realised.
I mean, you know, American intelligence, like most intelligence services, has its moments of stupidity and its moments of intelligence.
and I think they would have realized that that was perhaps not the right way to go about it but you know that's just a personal So I bow to other people who have greater knowledge in that area.
I do have where it overlaps, but, yeah, I don't claim that's my area of expertise.
Thanks.
Thank you.
Okay, now I wanted you to talk a little bit about your book, Payback, because it's quite unusual.
Yes.
It's an alternative history novel, actually, and thank you for caring.
It's actually published by, well, it's not out of print now, unfortunately.
It was published by Moonshine Cove in America.
But all the rights have reverted to me.
It's an alternative history novel and it's based on the idea that the gangster Benny Siegel, often known as Bugsy Siegel because he was a nutter, goes off in 1938 to assassinate Hitler on his state visit to Italy.
And it deals with everything from the build-up to the assassination, where you have basically the FBI send one of their guys undercover.
He has to pretend he's a mafia man himself.
They start off by talking to Frank Costello, who's the head of the American Mafia at the time.
And they say to him, Mr. Costello, we want you to kill somebody.
And then when Costello's finished laughing, he says, well, wait a minute, who do you want me to kill?
So he says, oh, Hitler.
And he says, what?
Anyway, he says, well, I thought some of your people, you've got Jews in your organisation who might be able to.
Then he thinks, well, yeah, I think I might know somebody crazy enough to do it.
Of course, it's Bugsy Siegel.
And he goes on, and anyway, he teams up with this Italian-American who actually, he's actually working for the feds, and they go off together, and it's a very all-sorted team, they nearly come to blows several times, and they go off to Rome on a mission to kill Hitler, and after that, there's various other developments.
I don't want you to give this book away, so to speak, but I do want you to explain why did you write it?
Well, I mean, frankly, actually, I could give a lot of this credit to my wife, actually.
She was saying to me, oh, you know, why don't we sit down and write a novel?
I thought, yeah, OK.
And then we thought, what should we talk about?
I mean, we came up with the idea.
We were chanting around for, you know, ideas, and we thought, well, probably a thriller's probably relatively easy to write compared with some types of novel.
And then we thought, hey, you know, it could be...
You know, we read this thing called Tough Jews and so on.
We thought, ah, you know, Bugsy Siggy's type of guy.
And then we discovered he actually had talked about killing Hitler.
So we thought, yeah, right, let's write this.
Let's have it so that he really does go and try it on, you know, which is what, you know, basically the book is about.
So what year did you write it?
Oh, God.
It must be about five years ago, I think.
Something like that.
About 2012, 2013, something like that.
I forget the exact year, but I've got it on the table.
So, yeah.
It's out of print, so I don't think it's available anywhere.
I've got a few copies for sale.
Yeah, I know, but other than that, I think it might be worth trying to get it reprinted.
I actually think if I did a new version, I'd change the title, because everybody got confused with the Mel Gibson film.
which was also called'Payback', but a completely different story.
You mentioned your book, you're talking about'The Inner Her'.
Yeah.
What's your setup about why you're writing it and what's the next book?
Well, it's not actually a book.
It's a Zoom lecture coming out on the 30th of July for the Lost Tuesday Society.
Well, why am I doing it?
I don't know.
Basically, Victor Wind asked me to come up with some ideas, and that was one of them I came up with.
But, I mean, it is an interesting theory because it's exercised some very great minds as well as...
The Black Sun.
Yeah.
It's like a...
It's like a...
Yeah.
Well, I mean, there's at least six different models of the hollow earth theory that I've come across, and they all have slightly different ways of formulating it.
But that is essentially...
How do people subscribe to that?
Well, I mean, it's the Last Tuesday Society, it's called.
And then they give you a link and then you can come in on it.
But it'll be at 8 o 'clock.
They always seem to be at 8 o'clock, but I don't actually… Yeah, my talk is The Last Tuesday of July, yeah.
Actually, I think it's not on a choose.
I don't know if this...
I don't even know if...
Just to confuse everybody.
But yeah, that's when that one's on.
Last Tuesday of July is the 26th.
Yeah, I didn't think it was on the third.
I say some of them aren't always on Tuesday.
I don't know why...
I had a feeling it wasn't the Tuesday.
Yeah, I know.
As far as the Nazis are concerned involving NASA, the head of the Apollo space program was a plasma Nazi plasma physicist.
Do you know anything about the so-called Mercury engines that the Nazis developed?
A little bit.
Yeah, a little bit.
In fact, again, I've got a bit about it in here.
Secret weapons.
secret weapons.
But yeah, I mean, there's a lot, I know a lot of it about it, but I don't claim to be I don't pretend to be Although obviously sometimes Sorry?
Well, they're not all bad.
I think Igor Rakowski's material about the bell and the Apollo program at Nazi involvement, Huntsville and all that.
Yeah, I don't go to that stage.
As I say, I tend to deal...
I mean, what the publishers want me to deal with basically what you might call loosely 1919 to 1945.
So although I have a lot of interest in other developments since then, So as the publishers are the ones that help me pay the bills, I have to go along with what they want, unfortunately.
Okay, but Igor Witkowski and the Nazi Bell is a really interesting area.
Are you familiar with the technology of the Bell?
That actually was, yeah, there's a whole chapter about it in that.
Yeah, that was very much connected with the Nazi nuclear program, actually, the bell, very much so.
And again, that is a very interesting project, which...
Again, there's been a great deal of talk about that's gone off at tangents.
You know, some of it has been, I mean, it wasn't actually, in spite of the fact that, you know, Vukowski and one or two others have suggested it, I think he's been slightly put off because his original source, A,
B, it's not entirely clear how much he actually knew or understood himself, but he certainly seems to have slightly gone off in one tangent in one way, in that obsessing about the...
Obviously there was research on that.
Everybody was doing research on it, even in those days, and they still are.
And in fact, the Americans have been...
But that certainly was of interest to them.
But it wasn't actually the primary function.
The primary purpose was...
That was one of the many areas where they were looking at ways to make things work.
They were so obsessed with weapons and mass destruction that they were trying everything.
and the bell was part of that.
And yeah, it was, Have you heard about the idea that there are tunnels in Gibraltar and that a bell was put into one of those tunnels?
Well, I wouldn't be surprised because there are tunnels all over the world in all sorts of peculiar places.
And Gibraltar has obviously always been a very strategic location, particularly in the days when navies mattered more than they do now.
And I would not be at all surprised.
I hadn't heard that particular theory, but I am not surprised at all.
It's exactly the type of place where you would put something like that because of its strategic importance.
What about Atlantis Rising?
What, the book by Brad Steiger?
I read that years ago.
Well, I mean, I don't think Atlantis, in that sense, is rising because I don't actually...
I mean, Atlantis is a subject I've often contemplated writing a whole book on, but I don't think I'd find a publisher who'd be interested in it.
But, you know...
I don't know.
I mean, I've got so stereotyped in terms of Nazi things, I might use a pseudonym.
But Atlantis is not actually one single place, in my opinion.
I've spent, as far back as I can remember, it's always fascinated me.
And I've studied and visited and read and all sorts of things.
And I do not believe that it represented one single place.
But I think it's a composite, actually, a composite story of various different things.
I think it's a composite story of a number of different events.
And there's no doubt that some of the descriptions that the earliest source we know about is Plato, but we do know that he got it from, ultimately from Solon, who got it from the Egyptians, and there are some vague, confusing references in surviving Egyptian documents.
And it seems to me that it's a combination of a series of One of which is an event in Egyptian history called the Invasion by the Peoples of the Sea.
Another one of which was actually Britain, the Doggerland that was buried under the sea.
And that used to be, because the earliest things, you actually find that many ancient Greeks...
And of course, there's no doubt the civilisation Plato describes in the Timurian Crete is very much a Bronze Age civilisation and very similar to Minoan Crete.
I think there's a whole...
The thing that most sceptics about Atlantis always forget.
Plato points out the Western continent.
In America, of course, as we think of it now.
And that is certainly an extraordinary thing for somebody living in 5th century, 4th century Athens to have come up with without any kind of evidence.
And we actually know also that there were numerous...
I'm long, long, long before people.
You can find...
Greek coins, Phoenician coins, even British coins, Japanese, Chinese, all sorts of people were there long before, not just Columbus, but even before the Vikings.
And, you know, I think he cobbled together the story of this western land in the west of America with memories of Minoan Creek, with the Dogaland thing and with, you know, other, the Egyptian legends as well.
I think there's a composite thing.
I don't think it's a single legend, but anyway, that's just me.
my opinion.
I wouldn't be surprised.
I mean, I think it's very...
Sometimes it's just national pride, but on the Egyptian part, but I think also sometimes there's more wider sort of things.
I mean, there are people that, I mean, like, I sort of talk about the subject sometimes of people like Graham Phillips and, you know, Andy Huss and so on.
And, you know, they actually say that they think that there is an unwillingness, to put it no stronger, on the part of what you might call the world of orthodoxy in inverted commas, to accept things that...
Things have become a dogma.
They get set in stone and they can't change.
They can't sort of accept.
I mean, it only takes ridiculously...
Like, when the first prehistoric cave paintings were discovered, everybody screamed, oh, they must be fakes.
Of course they weren't fakes.
They couldn't accept that it was possible that, you know, that they could have been produced so many years ago.
I mean, it's like the story...
People think writing is only...
You've got...
Now, they were not mining for coal or iron.
They were mining for ochre, red ochre.
But it was on an industrial scale.
Absolutely huge.
And it's like people think writing is a relatively recent invention.
Well, actually, we found clear evidence of prehistoric writing dating back well before.
I mean, it's like only...
way back.
And writing goes back for Glozelle.
You know, the earliest writing found.
And, of course, the further back you go, it means the more time there is for things to develop.
As I say, when you consider what we've achieved in the last 200 years, yeah, good and bad, good as well as bad, then, you know, you think how much you could achieve in the faster, and then over a longer time scale.
Thank you so much.
I was interested to ask you, please, what do you think about the potential of the Grand Canyon being the ancient mine, basically?
I wouldn't be at all surprised.
I've been to the Grand Canyon.
It is a very obvious location, something like that.
And I think there's no doubt that there's a huge amount of prehistoric civilizations in America.
Long before even people suspect.
And one of the problems there, of course, is that there's a reluctance to admit that for political reasons, but there's no doubt there was.
I mean, you know, yeah, I think it's entirely possible.
Yeah, it would be a very good location for that type of thing.
Absolutely.
Egyptian artefacts have been found in the area.
Absolutely, yeah.
Well, I believe very firmly in a worldwide network of trade.
People in the seas, in the old days, rivers and seas.
We're like motorways.
People used to travel around.
There's masses, masses of them.
You can find them all over the place.
and it's not something new it's just something that We got so used to perhaps travelling on road or by air, but in those days, it was the sea or the rivers that were the main means of travel, other than obviously, you know, animals.
And so I don't think that's at all.
I very much believe.
I think there's huge evidence for it.
You find...
knowns.
That's another lot.
You find evidence in...
one of the great lakes of Cretan artifacts found there, mining, taking copper, pure copper, And apparently, in that region, apparently, it's one of the few places in the world where you can actually get pure copper.
And it's been found in Crete, and in Cretan shipwrecks as well.
So there was a huge trait.
People don't realise.
Civilisation used to be very maritime.
Very maritime indeed.
Underground ancient tunnels as well.
Maybe they travelled through those.
I think it's a bit of both, yeah.
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