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Nov. 8, 2024 - Project Camelot
01:47:10
RINGMAKERS OF SATURN: NORM BERGRUN
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Time Text
Thank you.
When you say things are getting critical, are you talking about something to do with the vehicles that are in the ring?
So Saturn?
Yes, yeah.
Really?
Yeah.
So, I was behind closed doors for some time, and my clearance was way, way, way above top secret.
So can you tell us, are you able to tell us your title when you were working in this sort of division behind three doors?
No, I have probably three or four pages of titles.
I don't know which one I'm going to land on.
And I can tell things, when I mean things, the conditions are getting critical.
And I find that some scientists also think that.
And so I think when I do publish, that group anyway will agree with me full-heartedly.
It will have to be made to understand that those things are real.
Hi, I'm Carrie Cassidy from Project Camelot.
We are here with Norm Bergram.
He was with NACA, which was the early precursor of NASA. And he also worked for Ames Research.
He has also worked for Lockheed Martin as well.
Just Lockheed.
I left Lockheed before it turned Lockheed Martin.
Oh, wow.
Okay, we're going back in time here.
Okay, that's okay.
That's all fine.
It's got to be accurate.
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
He was an employee of Lockheed.
Yes.
Okay.
Before it was Lockheed Martin.
And he has written a book called The Ringmakers of Saturn, which is why we're here.
And let's see, it looks like you've got another book here too, right?
That was a precursor, a very early one.
Okay, I'm going to show these to the camera so that we can make sure to get them.
I have not read your book, Ringmakers of Saturn.
I'm hoping to get a copy and read the book because I have heard it's fabulous.
And I apologize for that.
It was a little pricey for some reason.
Well, you better get it before it goes up further.
Yeah, it has actually become something of a collector's item.
Yeah, and when I publish the next time, it'll be like $1,000.
Oh my God, isn't that amazing?
Yeah.
I've already sold one that where I certified my signature, certified the book, $250.
Really?
Yeah.
All right, well, so we're in the presence of a semi-celebrity or a celebrity in the scientific community, I guess, in a certain sense.
I've been around quite a while in the scientific community.
Yes.
Okay, so to kind of start off with, how old are you?
Do you mind saying?
Well, I always say, would you like to guess?
No, I've heard you're around 80, but I don't know.
No, in six weeks I will be 91.
Oh my God.
Wow.
And my specialist says, I think you can make 100.
Well, you are amazing because you look great and I had no idea you were that old.
Yep.
I work as hard now as I ever did.
Wow.
I don't have enough hours in the day for me.
Awesome.
And I'm making a change where I'm going to be able to have more time for me.
And so it's a very significant thing.
I won't be here the next time you come here.
Oh, you won't?
No, I'll be hidden somewhere else.
Oh, hidden in an underground base?
No, it's just a very nice place, but I will not be easy to get to.
Wow.
Yeah.
I've had my stuff stolen here.
Have you?
Yeah.
So I'm going in for, you don't know where I am.
Incredible.
Okay.
Well, that's very, very interesting.
And right now we're in Los Altos Hills, and we are actually in your home.
And thank you very much for having us here.
Oh, you're welcome.
My wife and I always enjoyed it.
And I designed the whole thing.
It's a lovely area, and it's a lovely home.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
And it's been very exciting trying to get here.
I've actually, I wanted to interview you almost a year and a half, two years ago.
Yes.
And unfortunately at that time your wife had passed on.
Yeah.
And so you took some time, obviously.
We're on our way to the Sacramento UFO Conference.
And so this was right on the way.
Yes.
And so it was very kind of you to let us come into your home.
I'm glad that you're here.
Thank you.
So what I'd like to do is have you introduce yourself and your background because obviously I've been getting a number of things wrong because...
Well you got it right now and the point I think you're interested in is how did I ever get interested in this?
Well, I've got lots of questions, but we could definitely start with that.
But first, before you do that, what I want you to do is I want you to talk about your background.
I want you to talk about sort of how you made your career progress, I guess you would call it, in the scientific community.
Okay, well it was at the time of the war and I was with Douglas Aircraft and I was on the drawing board designing turrets for fighter airplane and it had to be heated.
Then a department manager Showed up one day and he asked my boss, is there anybody here that would like to come up north?
I need somebody bad fast.
That's essentially what I wanted to.
And he said, yeah, check with Norm.
And I'd heard so much great things about being up in the northern parts, more rural and down in the south.
And so we said yes.
And I... I went to Ames Laboratory.
When I walked in the door, I was immediately an assistant project manager.
And when that happened, at that point I was just a plain mechanical engineer.
It was some administrative things that Cornell was able to give me.
But I was told.
You never use your feelings here.
You use data.
And that has stuck with me all my life.
Don't use your feelings.
You've got to nail something down.
Alright, so the project that I got on then was the beginning of the determination of how you design an airplane with thermal ice prevention.
What equations are to govern how much heat you have.
This required flying around In icing conditions, and we measured drop size, temperature, and how much water was in a cube of space.
You had to analyze the effect of cold on airplanes?
There were two purposes.
One was to be able to have some airplanes fly over the Himalayas safely.
And that was the first application to airplanes.
And then the second was to be able to build an icing wind tunnel.
And that was done in Cleveland, Ohio.
What year was this?
Oh, golly.
Approximately.
1945 was when they started to build, I think.
The flights were mandatory, and what we had was a sort of a dummy wing mounted amidship where we could adjust the heat on this model and determine exactly how much heat it took.
To get the ice that you saw there to go away.
Oh, I see.
There were some precarious flights.
What about flying in the Antarctic?
Did you have to fly or did they do any tests down there?
I think it's probably safer to fly in the Antarctic than it is where we flew.
Oh really?
Yes, because that it precludes formation of large drops.
If you have large drops and they freeze, you're in bad trouble in an airplane.
Oh, so it's the medium cold that is a problem.
Yes, that's why we measure temperature, you see.
One of the, I got to tell you this story, is that we flew from Laramie, Wyoming, to Salt Lake City.
And in between there, there's a range of mountains.
But there's a cutout, you know, so that you can go through there at low altitudes.
This particular flight, I can tell from the instruments that I had, which were virtually the same as the pilots, that, hey, we're losing altitude.
I've never seen an altimeter hand spin like this.
It just went around like that.
Oh, wow.
The airspeed stayed up for a little while.
Then it began to drop.
Mind you, we were flying at like 150 indicated speed.
And so it got down to 100.
And uh oh, here we go.
And stall was like 92.
We hit 93.
Wow.
And at that point, the pilots had poured on all the power to the engine they could get.
The hand for the temperature, the piston rings were in the red, which you should never fly an airplane like that, but we did in order to get out of this downdraft.
I see.
So that's the kind of thing we went through.
Wow.
And why did that happen?
Was it just because it had this down sort of area between the mountains?
We would have crashed had we been over to the right or to the left.
We had an airline pilot, a United Airline pilot, that knew all these routes, and that's precisely why he was chosen.
I see.
So that we would have as safe flight as possible.
And, yeah, we would have intercepted, no question about it.
Very, very interesting to go back in time this way.
Let's fast forward a bit.
Okay.
Okay.
And you went from studying this and from dealing with this and had exclusively, I'm assuming, to do with normal airplanes, right?
Not rockets or going out of space.
Not at that point.
Not at that point.
Okay, so at what point did you kind of move into the scientific area dealing with, I don't know, did you go from there to Ames?
Was it Ames?
Or was it NACA? Well, you see, I was at Ames all the time I did.
The icing work.
Oh, you were.
And I did some stability and control work.
Okay.
Particularly as it related to the role of airplanes and if they would go unstable in a role condition.
And I found conditions where they would.
And so we had a situation with the test A vehicle called the X-17, I believe it was, where they spun it up to try to keep it stable, but they were testing the warhead.
And it was a flight where the head would go to Mach 15.
And, okay, so I was able to back out the reason for it, and it had to be that the missile, the material in it, was just off enough. the material in it, was just off enough.
It's sort of like a tire that was not properly balanced and it would whip.
It just whipped.
So you had to know all of that.
Did you also have to know things about weather because Eventually the rings of Saturn, I think maybe there's a link up there.
The answer is yes.
On our flights we had a professional meteorologist and the pilot, the meteorologist and I always looked at the weather patterns.
And during that time I got acquainted with a number of other meteorologists and they told me how they thought weather appeared just come out of nowhere.
I found that very fascinating.
Anyway, the meteorologist and I wrote a joint report on the meteorology of icing.
So you had that background as well.
Okay, that was at Ames, correct?
Yes.
You see, we knew the icing program was going to come to a close, so a bunch of us proposed flights at Mach 15.
And lo and behold, one fellow went down to the newly opened missile division in Van Nuys.
And he wrote me a letter and said, Norm, you won't believe this.
They're doing just what you guys wanted to do.
And here's an application.
And he says, fill it out.
This is where you should be.
And I did fill it out.
My pay went up by a factor of three.
At one point where we had this instability of the test for going Mach 15 down there, the head of the project was so impressed with how simple it was to fix this that I became one of the favorite guys.
I see.
Okay, so at that point you're working a little more in, when you say the missile area, but was that, that was still, I mean, we're still talking about here on Earth, right?
Yes.
So, how did you make that transition to looking at...
No problem, no problem.
The equations are the same airplane-wise as the missile.
Okay.
As a rocket as well, right?
So did you, did you, I mean, I'm really not sure, but did you work on the shuttles?
No.
No?
No, that was after.
That was later.
Yeah.
So what was the politics that created, went from NACA to NASA? Because you must have been around right during the transition, right?
The idea of space was coming into the picture.
NACA was the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics.
So how do you fit it in?
Well, we'll just invent another organization, we'll call it NASA, National I see.
But in a sense, when you were at NACA, because you wrote the Ringmakers of Saturn, so at some point you were already looking out to the stars, right?
So if this organization was just called National Aeronautics, what was it, organization, NACA? The National Advisory Committee for Airness.
Okay.
But they were dealing, they had to go into space before it became NASA. Didn't they deal with space?
The only one that went into space before it became NASA was the missile I worked on in Van Nuys.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Where did the missile go?
Where was it supposed to go?
Were you shooting it?
We were firing it from Cape Canaro and out over the ocean and make sure that we didn't land on any land down in there anywhere.
That was really the early years.
Okay, so you're working for NACA. When did you write the book?
I wrote it in 1981, I believe it was.
Had you left NACA when you wrote the book?
Yeah.
How long?
I don't know.
Approximately.
When did you leave NACA? I guess it had to be Lockheed in this case.
I think it was 1959, something like that.
Wow, so you wrote Ringmaker Saturn a couple years, you know, like 20 years later.
It was when the Voyager, Voyager 2, had finished its flight.
And I had Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 data.
And that I inspected and studied for quite a while.
That's when I wrote the first book and I was so surprised at what I found that it took me like the four years to get the book published because I wasn't sure that what I had was really right.
And so I looked in many articles and books and said, oh yeah, this sort of fits what they're talking about there.
Okay, you're okay, so publish it.
And so the book came out in 1985.
Okay, and that's The Ringmakers.
That's The Ringmakers.
But the other one, this one...
That's 1971.
I had left Lockheed at that point and so I was down at Santa Cruz on a vacation and one day I spotted a real bright light in the distance and at first I thought it was a helicopter with the sun shining on the windshield.
I was laying in the direction of the sun being from my back, and I was looking forward to look at this bright image.
And finally I decided, hey, that windshield couldn't shimmer like that.
And I ran and got my camera and shot some pictures.
That was really a convincing time for me.
So was that a UFO? What we call a UFO? You know, when it comes to calling things UFO, I part ways with people.
Okay.
What would you call it?
It's an IFO. Because I named it.
Okay.
Well, did we build it?
Pardon?
Did we build it?
Who built it?
The craft?
I don't know who built it, but what I found out is these things inhabit Saturn.
That's where I first discovered them.
And they're proliferating.
They're now Uranus and Jupiter.
Wherever you see some rings now, that's one of these...
You see the craft.
Yeah, I call it a ring breaker.
Okay, you call it a ring maker.
Yeah, and I say it's electromagnetic because I can identify streamlining patterns with respect to it that I knew were what we call potential lines, and that says it was electrical.
Interesting.
Well, so the craft that you saw in Santa Cruz was the first sort of precursor of your kind of giving you a heads up?
Is that right?
Yeah, and then for this book, I believe, it was simply a picture taken out over these mountains.
The object was over the ocean, but it was very bright, exceptionally bright.
So did you look at the sky with a telescope, or were you looking at the sky with just your naked eye?
Just naked eye.
Uh-huh.
But you saw these objects?
Yeah.
And did you talk to anyone about that?
No.
You didn't?
No.
And you just decided to write your book?
Yeah, there were 26 copies of those.
I don't know where the other 25 are.
You're kidding.
Yeah.
You wrote 26 copies of this book?
Yeah.
That's how many were printed.
Wow, this is really a collector's item then.
Yeah.
That's incredible.
You find one.
I'd like to get it myself.
Okay, that's fascinating.
This is an interesting...
Yeah, that's where I got the idea that there were streamers from these objects.
And...
Or I couldn't have drawn that, okay?
I see.
What do you mean by streamers?
Well, you see those?
Yes.
I mean, it actually looks like art.
I call those streamers.
I mean, do you know what that is?
I can tell you what in our physical terms they would call it.
They would call that pinched plasma.
And it means it's hot because it's plasma.
I see.
And because of certain speed and all this kind of stuff, it comes out pinched.
You know, it's a certain condition.
When I saw it, it was though On the top of the cylindrical object, the color of those streamers was what I call a nauseating chartreuse.
Really?
It was really the most nauseous chartreuse I have ever, ever seen.
The closest color that would match it is chlorine.
So you see this plasma sort of coming off the object, and this is with your naked eye?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, I mean, you must have a very unique way of looking at craft, obviously.
I can't say that was completely the case.
I did get my binoculars by this time.
Oh, okay.
That was helpful.
Okay, and you filmed it as well, did you see?
Well, just stop, you know, still.
You have some stills.
Are there stills in this book?
Well, of course, the ringmeasures of Saturn is all government shots.
And they are stills.
And these are stills.
But any of your own?
Only Tamara Technology, they are mine.
Oh, are they?
Okay, interesting.
And so at this point you're talking about having been in Santa Cruz and seeing a craft, inspiring to write the first book, I guess.
And that was about, what you said, 1979?
71.
And then what happened after you wrote the first book?
What was the reception to that?
People would take it.
I'd never get it back.
I'd loan it to them.
I'd never get it back.
They just disappeared fast.
I see.
What kind of people would take it?
I mean, were they other scientists?
Yeah, by and large, yeah.
By and large?
Were they employees of NASA at that time?
By then, NASA was formed, right?
Well, it's just people that I knew, my colleagues here and there.
Okay, so you went from Ames, N-A-C-A, and then to Lockheed, right?
Yes.
But at that point, when you went to Lockheed, was it turning into NASA at that point?
When I left, the answer is yes.
When I left NACA, you know, it was only months when NASA... Before it became NASA? Yes.
Okay.
And why did you leave NACA? Well, I think it was because...
The fellow that sent me the app thought I should be down there.
He said, hey, this is the kind of thing you've been doing there, and you should be here.
And he was so right.
Oh, so the organization that sent you the application from Southern California was Lockheed?
The fellow that sent me the application formally worked at Lockheed.
I see.
So was it Lockheed Skunk Works that you ended up?
No, I haven't been in there.
You haven't?
No.
You never met Ben Rich?
No, I have never met him.
I have met some guys that have worked in there, and they've told me stories about that, but I've never met him.
So the division of Lockheed back then that you worked for, was it top secret or was it just in the public domain?
When I worked at Lockheed, I had documents that were indeed top secret.
Really?
Wow.
Oh yeah.
And then I went through the first generation Of the Polaris underwater launch vehicle.
And then I got tapped to go behind closed doors.
Oh, you did?
Yeah.
And I was there for...
until I got claustrophobia.
You got claustrophobia?
Yeah.
I had to go through three doors to get to my desk.
And this is in Southern California?
No, it turned out to be up here.
They moved.
Oh, Lockheed, because I know Lockheed was in Sunnyvale, right?
Yeah, but it started out down there.
I see.
So I was behind closed doors for some time, and my clearance was way, way, way above top secret.
Okay.
You know who Bob Dean is?
Yes.
Had you ever talked to him one-on-one?
I've talked with him, yes.
He believes what I put here is, yes, that is correct.
And I agree with him.
Well, I just wondered, because he has a pretty high, he had a pretty high above top secret clearance at one time.
Mine was above the President of the United States.
Oh, was it?
Okay, and so were you working in an underground base up here at that time?
No, it was just a place that you wouldn't know how to get to.
Really?
I wouldn't know how to get to?
It's, you know, if you stumble around enough you can find it, but it wasn't all that big a deal.
So, was this the kind of thing where you signed the non-disclosure, you say you had to go through three doors to get to your...
Yeah, I had to sign my life away for 30 years.
Wow.
Is it still in effect right now?
No.
No?
So could you tell me anything?
No.
You can't?
Why?
What would happen?
Uh, I'd prefer not to find out.
Oh, okay.
All right, well, let me ask you, I mean, I know we're kind of jumping around here, but you're certainly piquing my curiosity about some of these things.
So, were you over, was Lockheed over by Moffat Field during those days?
Yep.
Okay, that was a pretty fast yes.
Okay.
I was born at Moffat Field Hospital.
Oh, you were?
Yeah, I was.
There was a...
Were you there at the time when the Macon went down?
The what?
The Macon.
The Zeppelin, the Dirigible.
Oh, I don't know.
I mean, I was very young.
Okay, all right.
So there was a Dirigible that went down in Longfield?
No, it's in that housing that is being stripped off of the top of it now.
The hangar.
The hangar.
It has a lot of history.
Yeah.
So did you ever see any UFOs out there?
Now, let's go back on this and get that straight.
I'm sorry.
Okay.
Yeah, because...
Whatever you call them.
You see, when you say unidentified flying object...
You're right.
You're absolutely right.
You can't go anywhere with that.
Okay.
The only reason I see that people like UFOs is for that very reason, so I can keep in business all the time.
Because it's unresolvable.
Okay.
So you've identified it.
But when you resolve something, you know, Okay, but if you were in Above Top Secret, let's say you might have seen some craft in those hangars.
Is that right?
It was my first clue that there was something in space that was different.
I was handed one day a set of data The guy that gave it to me said, nobody else around here has ever been able to get anything out of these data, and if anybody can, you can.
And so I went through it, and I found this one spot of data that really looked interesting.
And I slugged through plotting it up.
It was quite a difficult test to To draw the picture of that.
And when I got it, you could tell it was something strange.
Oh, wow.
So, well, so let me ask you this.
Can you tell me that you actually saw these things on the ground at all?
Were they in location?
I didn't at that time.
I have seen one on the ground in Antarctica.
Not personally, but an image of one which I wish I had cut out.
These things can come in real low.
They're all sizes.
It's the same deal as airplanes, you know, the cubs and all that kind of thing.
Right, and so when you're talking about the craft in the rings of Saturn, you're talking about something huge, right?
Yes.
Much bigger than we could even conceive of, I understand.
I don't know, was it 70,000 square feet?
In looking down on the rings, I could see parallel lines crossing all the rings at once.
That's about as long as you can get them.
That's incredible.
But I could tell that those lines demarked the outside of an object.
And that's how I came up with the scale I present in there of different lengths of these things.
Okay, so at this time, though, you've written the first book, and you're working above Top Secret.
You say you got claustrophobia, and at that point you hadn't written Ringmakers of Satin.
That's right.
Had you started to stumble on some of the information that eventually went into the book?
I didn't start anything with a book until after Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 flew.
Okay.
But did you, back in those days, you already were sort of clued in that there were...
Exactly.
That's why I started looking at anything I'd get a hold of.
And this turned out to be just 35 millimeter slides that Caltech had released.
To the public distributor down there.
And so I got just these small little slides.
But you, at the time that you got that, you were not employed with anyone, is that right?
Correct, yeah.
I was on my own.
Yeah, I knew eventually I had to do that.
So are you sort of saying, when you say you got claustrophobia, I don't know what that means, do you mean that you became sort of tired of working in this above top secret area?
No, I'm not tired, and it was very exciting.
I got to see everything that went on all over the world.
Wow.
Nothing much has changed.
Yeah?
Yeah.
Um… I don't know how… Were you threatened?
Did you have friends who were leaving the employee of Lockheed at that time?
Was there some incident that happened that made you want to leave?
No, it wasn't that.
Let's just say that you're confined to one room Day after day, year after year, same walls, so forth.
That's claustrophobia.
I see.
But I knew that, hey, there's something going on out there, and see if you can't find it.
So in other words, on a certain level you wanted to go beyond the confines of what you were studying?
Yes, sure.
And I made myself a policy.
It's got to be all government images.
No shots by me or any other person.
Okay.
Because what happens is that if you say, oh, let's say I took the picture.
What film did you use?
What shutter did you use?
Da-da-da-da-da.
That is never questioned when you have a government picture.
Okay, but have you heard that NASA alters their footage coming from the moon, etc.?
I know some of the things they do with it, yeah.
Okay, so even their footage is not always dependable, right?
Although I guess it's dependable to begin with, it's just that they start altering it later?
I have been told by a very reliable source.
He asked me what camera did I get that image from on the moon.
I said Hasselblad.
And he said, that's right.
He says, I thought we darkened that enough that you wouldn't find it.
Oh yes, so you were finding things that they didn't, they thought they covered up.
Yeah.
Incredible.
Yeah, yeah.
That must have been a lot of fun.
And this guy says, well I suppose you want me to go out and tell everybody about that.
I said, no, I don't want to embarrass you.
That doesn't make any difference to me.
Whatever you want to do is fine with me.
I'm just saying I found what you saw.
Okay, what about the Mars footage?
The people that look at that, I wonder sometimes how in the world they can say what they do.
Because you can find a lot in that footage.
Oh, yes.
No question.
So have you got your own photographs that you got from the government that you then were able to, you know, sort of look at and keep in sort of pristine condition?
I'll tell you, at this juncture, I don't know what I have.
I finally went to put it in a vault that the people claimed nobody can get in here, including the government.
But unfortunately, somehow, somebody did.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
And what they do, like I have some of them on a laptop, some of them just on discs and so forth, they garble it.
They run it through something and they garble it.
So it's no longer...
And sometimes there's just nothing on there.
And I know that there should be something, and there's nothing.
So I don't know how much of the early stuff I can put together.
What I do know is I can put together it any time.
I don't need that old stuff, you can tell people.
Really?
I don't need it.
Because you know, you're familiar with the landscapes, you know where things are.
I know, I'm familiar with the landscape, I know, I know pretty much what's going on.
Okay, so, well, that's very tantalizing.
So, at this point, you learned quite a bit.
You were very respected, I imagine, when you left, even above top secret, right?
You left employee of Lockheed in good terms or not good terms?
Yeah, I was respected.
There was a time when on the Polaris vehicle that When the missile was fired off, it didn't light up.
It came back down and hit the submarine.
And I said it was the umbilical plug.
And the head of the project asked me, what do you think it is, Norm?
I said it's the umbilical.
That's the most reliable thing there is on the bird, Norm!
It can't be that!
A Navy guy came in later and I said, it's the umbilical bug.
Frank is not going to believe it unless we pull that thing up.
And we got the whole Navy out there.
I don't see why he can't pull it up.
And if we don't pull it up, the Soviets are going to do it.
He said, Norm, focus your, synchronize your watch with mine.
Three minutes, you're going to have a call from Frank.
Three minutes, I had a call from Frank.
He says, Norm, you're going to be real excited.
They're going to pull up the bird.
And it was the umbilical.
And after that, as Norm said, it was a certain thing.
Don't argue with him.
That's great.
Yeah, it was that kind of thing.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So, can you tell us, are you able to tell us your title when you were working in this sort of division behind three doors?
No, I have probably three or four pages of titles.
I don't know which one I'm going to land on.
I think what's going to happen is that I'm just going to have to find the images that I can get that either aren't affected by anything Or I get some new ones of some sort that will sort of govern how this whole thing goes together.
I am very aware of Sagan's principle When you make big claims, you have to have big data.
And that's the big thing about it.
Amassing enough data that it's got to be true.
There's so much of it.
And it takes a long time to put together that kind of story.
Right.
But you've been working on this whole idea for a long time.
It's up here, alright.
But I haven't been able to get anything much down on paper.
I spent two years with my wife before she died, and two years getting things straightened out afterwards.
So there's four years in there I've lost.
I see.
And I can tell things, when I mean things, the conditions are getting critical.
And I find that some scientists also think that.
And so I think when I do publish, that group anyway will agree with me full-heartedly.
On your conclusions.
When you say things are getting critical, are you talking about something to do with the vehicles that are in the rings of Saturn?
Yes.
Really?
You see, it's sort of simple.
One...
I meant a lot of energy.
Right.
And...
Okay.
And this is the ring, right?
This part, this is the ring?
That ends up being the ring.
It's hot plasma.
Oh, really?
Okay, so what your theory is they're manufacturing it, is that correct?
That's the exhaust from this thing.
From the craft?
Yes.
Is it because, are they stationary or are they moving the craft?
They're probably moving.
So do you think, when you say things are getting critical, are you saying...
Just take that picture and say that's the exhaust.
It's like you have an airplane with an exhaust.
It's in your atmosphere and it can load a lot of energy.
Saturn, like John Lear says, Saturn is the focal plane and I can't agree with him more.
Okay, but John Lear talks about Saturn actually being portaled into another dimension.
Well, you know, He's theorizing.
Yeah, so you don't necessarily go there.
I don't go that way.
I either say, this is the way it is, or I can attack it.
Okay, but you're saying things are getting critical, because I'm really curious, are you saying that those craft are coming here?
Is that why it's critical?
No, I'm saying In effect, if they do, and there's a good probability that that is possible, then, hey, you've got to get with it.
You can't wait around.
But you see, no one really in this country accepts the concept that at Saturn, those things are there.
as you can't do it at Saturn, you just can't have it.
People have got to be made to understand that those things are real.
Now, there are two images taken by the Hubble telescope of Saturn this last year, 2012, that shows objects under the rings and one just right to the edge.
Like I said, they were.
Okay?
Is that Cassini?
Did the photographs come from Cassini?
The last ones...
No, no.
The ones I told you about that shows those...
Right.
Those are Hubble's.
Those are from Hubble.
Yeah.
But am I wrong?
They closed down Hubble, right?
Well, yeah.
Or that's the official story.
Right?
Wherever they close it down, it's 2012 before they show you the picture.
It's 2012 before they show you the picture.
What do you mean by that?
And I was able to tell that before 1985.
Yes, so you were way ahead of everyone.
I'm way ahead.
And that is too long to tolerate Three reports, I guess, on the environment, let's say, in UNESCO, but they're yea thick.
All three of them weigh 18 pounds or about 6 pounds.
And they have to vote on what they think goes on.
That is not science.
That's politics.
That's not science.
It's science.
It is not science.
Okay?
And that is the hump that you could help get us over.
Those things are real.
Okay, but if there are craft, there are beings.
Okay, people would have asked me about, I call them I did not call them objects.
That was too neuter for me.
I had a Stanford professor who said, you ought to call them objects normally.
They have all the qualities of the vehicle.
They can move.
You know, they're just like a missile or anything like that.
So, that much we can say about them, for sure.
So, I'm calling them in.
Okay, somebody comes along and says, "Well now, where would you manufacture one that's two and a half earth lengths long?" And that's a hard question to answer.
However, if you think of it in terms of its living entity, It's just another kind of thing that we've got in our universe.
And it can grow and grow and grow and grow.
So it can be an envy and it can itself have life.
So are you not positing the idea that those vehicles contain beings who are maybe like us?
If I only go along with government images, and if you want to know about people kind of thing, there is the ship that picked up the Voyager capsule at Alameda And
And they have a picture there of, I think it's the Apollo flight that Buzz and Neil were on.
But anyway, there is one image there that shows black people getting off.
So people with dark skin getting off.
Not dark, black.
Black skin?
Really black, yeah.
Were they tall?
Yes.
Very tall?
How tall?
Do you know?
Well, they got out the doorway.
I don't know how high that is, but it's safe.
Seven feet would be probably a conservative estimate.
Have you heard about Clark McClellan's statement about that?
No.
Oh, you haven't?
No.
Have you ever been in touch with him?
No.
No?
I have tried to stay independent and not be affected by others' opinions.
I would rather have what I present clash with somebody else and see who wins.
Rather than make a shouting match over it.
Sure.
I learned that the longer you shouted, the more probable it was that you would get your way.
And I don't want to go through that routine.
Okay.
Well, good for you.
So you're saying it's a, what did you say, $5 million?
$4 billion.
So that's an estimate of how valuable he thinks all of this is.
I see.
But he doesn't get any support.
Right.
Interesting.
So you think that Obama would like to find out more.
Oh, yes.
He would like to keep NASA operating.
Yeah, he would like to.
Really?
Yeah.
Okay, and you know that because...
Well, I know that He has a friend there at the head of NASA, and he would like to have him look good and so forth, so he would like to see some things go on under his watch, but it's not happening.
Do you know who's preventing it?
I think it's the overall economic picture that's preventing it.
I was in public policy in my organization, my professional organization, American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.
I've been on Capitol Hill and visited the various congressional offices and trying to point out to them what we felt was important.
We made a list of ten items.
Such as?
What would be an example of something important?
This Ringmakers of Saturn?
I mean the vehicles?
Oh no, this is way out in left field.
Oh, so not even that close, not going in that direction?
No, it's like you gotta protect the doors of the pilot's compartment because of tear hits, you know?
Oh, that.
I mean, just practical things.
I see.
And, okay, The budget for aeronautics has gone practically to zero because space has swiped it because it's so expensive.
And you just try to juggle money around.
And it's a strange place back there in Washington.
But it's a big education to try to do some public policy.
Okay, well that's pretty unusual to have a scientist that tries to do public policy.
When you called yourself, I kind of, I don't know if you consider yourself an aeronautics engineer, I just say I'm a scientist-engineer.
It's hard to be a scientist without being an engineer.
And when you say training for just an engineer, I don't think that's going to work.
And that shows to me how little understanding there is about that educational aspect.
Did you ever go to Stanford?
You did?
Did you graduate from there?
I got a quarter in and then my dad passed away and he was supporting me and that was the end of that.
But it was long enough to be an alumnus at Stanford.
The other interesting thing is that Ezra Cornell and Leland Stanford got together on the founding of Stanford.
So for many years there's been a close relationship between the two.
Oh, between Cornell and Stanford?
Yeah, and so rather than making Cornell my home university, Stanford definitely is my home.
Okay.
But to get back to the subject at hand, with regard to the rings and regard to what you've seen, and when you wrote your book, what was the response to the book when you published it in the scientific community, at Stanford, at, you know, these places?
I would say practically zero.
No reaction?
If it is, I never found out about it.
I think only now are they beginning to listen.
And it's come around this way.
I was, in early April, given some fruit.
And the person that gave it to me had been bringing over followed up fruit for a number of times when we had lunch here.
And this one evening I decided, well, I'm going to cut a little out of that apple.
It looks so bad anyway.
And I took about two cubic inches, one cubic inch on one and another cubic inch out of the other.
And that was about 11 o'clock.
And about 2 o'clock in the morning, I really began to feel ill.
And I even called my son who isn't Tracy.
I said, this is a heads up.
I said, I'm beginning to feel really ill.
and you ought to come over.
And he didn't make it over.
I felt I was getting so ill, I called the neighbor next door to take me to the hospital.
I was just going downhill like that.
And I never experienced that.
That was an attempt on my life.
The specialist that I have, he had one question for me.
He said, Norm, what triggered this?
And I said, I think it's the apple.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
Wow.
So he had a theory already.
He's a prof of internal medicine and he's one of the smartest ones I've ever run across there at the hospital.
You didn't happen to have a piece of the apple analyzed or anything?
I threw it all the way down the drain.
Anyway, because of the nature of the happening and the kind of question that he asked me, I saw him about a week ago and he He says,
you know, I've spoken to a physicist about some of your ideas.
Okay, that's what I'm saying.
Now, through the hospital, because of what has happened, I've caught their attention.
I see.
And when you say because of what has happened, what has happened?
I almost lost my life.
Okay, so you almost lost your life.
But why is, in other words, why do you think they're focusing on you suddenly?
You know there's a movie out called Prometheus, right?
I can't say that I do.
You don't know that.
Well, there is one.
And I talked to Richard Hoagland.
He said Prometheus is, well, first of all, there's a moon in Saturn called Prometheus, right?
Yeah.
And I'm told that there's some kind of interaction between that moon and the rings.
Well, sure.
No question about it.
Okay.
Yeah, I would agree with him.
And you say there's something going on now.
It's becoming critical is how you're terming it.
Yeah, it's much more prevalent.
Then what we saw in 1985 or a little earlier, Meaning there's more activity on Saturn, do you think, or just more activity around this question about the rings and the craft in the rings?
No, there's actual activity.
There is.
You know, to start off with, Uranus, which is one of the other planets, did not have rings.
That's right.
But now it does.
Right.
See?
And so that kind of thing is going on.
And we really ought to get to the root of it.
Okay, do you have a theory on why Uranus suddenly has rings?
Well, sure.
It's exhaust just like...
So that's how I think the attention is being obtained.
And so...
I would expect something to happen a little bit.
You would?
Yes.
When you say something to happen, what are you suggesting?
I'm suggesting that Stanford will say, well, let's look into what Norm's doing.
Okay, but you just told me you were going to be leaving here and going to kind of a secret location.
Have they asked you to come back in to work for them?
No.
Nobody has asked me to come back.
The fact is, as far as my own professional organization is concerned, it does not fit at all with their objectives.
How is it different?
It's too controversial.
Your theories, you mean?
Now look, this is not a theory when there's data.
If I propose something, that is a theory.
Okay, so your data or your conclusions?
Yes, conclusions.
Your conclusions are too controversial, is what you're saying.
Yes, yeah.
Okay.
They don't want to get involved in that.
But if there, as you say, there are new rings around Uranus...
And there's other activity on other planets too, isn't there?
In the solar system?
Jupiter.
And what's happening with Jupiter?
It's getting rings.
It's getting rings.
Okay, and are you seeing craft there as well?
Vehicles, as you call them?
I haven't identified craft, but I can tell you that where there's rings, there are these things.
So we have these ringmakers and they create tremendous energy.
Can you tell us more about what you think is going on there?
You've got any ideas along those lines?
Well, let's just take one that there was this, what do they call them, far lookers or these psychologists?
Oh, remote viewers.
Remote viewers.
Yes.
Right, that's what I'm...
I just did an interview with somebody there.
Which one?
I had heard that there was one that saw something out there in the rings and they were mining the rings.
That's true, yes.
Okay.
I think I read her book and she couldn't see anything from the side, but when she looked from the top down, that's when she saw things.
I see.
I happened to have been able to Uncover what she saw.
Really?
Yeah.
And what did you know?
I would say, I don't think they're mining the rings.
I think they're nursing from the rings.
Oh, in other words, you think they're using the energy to power their craft?
Yeah, that's where new ones are getting their energy.
Oh, new vehicles are getting their energy?
Yeah.
You know, you start out small, just like a baby, and then they get bigger.
Oh, right, because you say that you believe they're sort of like alive.
Do you believe they're plasma vehicles, what's called a plasma vehicle?
Have you heard that terminology?
Well, I've never heard them called plasma vehicles, but I can understand why somebody might say that, yes.
Yeah, I wouldn't make a big deal over that.
Okay, I've heard that the vehicles out there use, they actually fly close to the sun and they power themselves up on the sun and then they go back into it.
I wouldn't be surprised, yeah.
I've noticed some go in there It means that they're capable of withstanding those high temperatures.
And so, yeah, they could get pumped up really nicely.
Okay, so we have a very active scenario out there, and you say it's critical.
When you use that word, critical, that kind of sounds impending, like there's something coming to Earth or coming at us.
Well, you know, when I read that the universe is expanding, I say, The universe is expanding.
You guys are just saying you have objects out there that you use to say the universe is expanding.
But how about supposing they're increasing their speed?
That would appear like what you're saying.
And if something out there is moving faster to get away from something else, We may have a critical situation.
Okay, very interesting.
So something out there is moving faster to get away from something else.
What would that something else be?
It's hard to say.
Now here I do have a hypothesis.
Oh yeah?
Yeah.
The Big Bang.
I think my hypothesis is that There were the goodniks and there were the badniks.
And they had a fight.
A big bang ensued.
I see.
A big bang, a really big bang.
So you think the sort of multiverses are a result of the collision of sort of light and dark, so to speak.
How did you say that again?
You think the multiverses are a result of the collision between good and bad or light and dark?
Well, multiverses, what are you...?
Well, that's my point of view.
In other words, I don't think there's just one dimension and one universe.
I think there are multiple dimensions and multiple universes.
Did you agree with Einstein when he said there were at least five dimensions?
Well, I certainly will agree that you can have almost any number of dimensions you want, okay?
I take a little different view.
My son suffers from a malady in which he hears voices.
Oh yes?
And I'll tell you, I think that's a universe right there.
Okay.
Right under our nose.
When he first came down with us, we had a blackboard in the room there.
It was four by eight feet.
And he wrote equations of space on there.
He did?
He did.
Were you able to ascertain if they were valid in any way?
I didn't need to know all the details.
I knew enough to know that those are strange equations that you wrote.
You don't write that kind of equation here on Earth.
And you do have some distance parameters in there.
And I'll tell you, I was really scared.
The fact is I erased the darn board because I wish now I had kept it.
But I was scared.
I was frightened at the time.
Really?
Yeah.
What were you frightened of?
The fact that he could write that stuff.
That he was getting an input so he could write it.
Yes.
That's what scared me.
So, in other words, who it could be coming from was the unknown intelligence type of idea?
Yeah, so we have talks about About that quite frequently, and it's just another aspect of all this.
That is a universal, right?
Absolutely.
And it's not the kind that normally you'd think would be, but I'll tell you, some of the things he tells, they sure are real.
He can describe things down to just the last detail.
Sounds like somebody I'd like to talk to.
He would say no, no way.
He wouldn't?
Yeah, he wouldn't do it.
Is he a scientist?
No, but he came within a semester of getting his bachelor's degree in chemistry.
I see.
And he was our brightest.
When he was four or five years old, he wired up a train set.
I still am amazed that he did it all by himself.
He had the cars switching around and all this.
That's amazing.
Okay, well, wow.
Okay, this is so fascinating.
Let me ask you, you still use this word critical, and I'm still trying to figure out where you're going with that.
I'll tell you when I get the book written, I'll tell you what it is.
Right now I have a gut feeling that always precedes things that are going to happen.
I've done many analysis with, hey, I got a gut feeling that that's it.
See if it is it, and I'll be right.
And you'll be right.
So you're someone whose gut feelings are something to pay attention to.
Yeah, it's a gut feeling right now.
Wow, that's incredible.
Let me ask you, are you still in touch with the scientific community?
Do you consider yourself, or do you consider yourself out on the fringe?
How do you feel about that?
Oh, by definition, I've been out on the fringe ever since I left Lockheed.
That's the way that definition goes.
And I had been director at large of our San Francisco section, not San Francisco, but the region of AIAA that included A-I-W-A, what is that?
American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics.
The idea was to keep NORM active and also letting them float around amongst the sections and so forth, which I did for a while.
I got to seeing that, hey, it's running pretty good and Where I saw that they're reinventing the wheel, that's when I stepped in.
As a staff person, I kept a lot of stuff.
I've been asked to step down from that job because the regional director is going to leave it and so I welcomed the invitation and so he will be quitting also.
So that does leave me sort of...
So you mean you've been doing that up to now?
Mm-hmm.
Really?
Yeah.
They've actually had you active in that organization, kind of overseeing things?
Oh yeah, yeah.
Oh yeah.
It wasn't much, but when you read what's going on in Arizona and Washington and so forth, it takes a while to read all that stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And...
So, let me ask you.
I mean, you know that NASA has been sort of a front organization.
I call them a front organization for the secret space program.
I don't know about being front.
Well, when I say front, I mean, if you have an organization that deals with the public, interfaces with the public, and also misleads the public on certain things, by doctoring photos, by covering up certain things, by only releasing certain things, that's a front organization, isn't it?
Okay, alright.
I guess you're entitled to do that.
Okay.
So if we were to look at the situation a little closer and find out who are the insider organizations, certainly Lockheed would qualify.
Would you say that the defense industry are all in the know?
No.
No?
No.
Lockheed only recently has been getting images themselves.
Having worked there, I don't think there'd be anybody that would be capable of doing the kind of work I have been doing.
I just thought that that kind of talent does not exist these days.
Well, when you were an above top secret, you must have had people reporting to you, right?
No, I was Mr.
It.
What does that mean?
Were you Dr.
Strangelove?
I mean, what were you?
By it...
Okay, here's some data.
Tell me what it means.
So you were the go-to guy?
I was the go-to guy for, you know, the order they handed me.
I took it apart.
One of my reports went to Kennedy.
Oh yeah?
Do you think that Kennedy was killed because he wanted to reveal things they didn't want out there?
I don't know.
We had a fellow that was from headquarters And that occurred while we were all behind closed doors, and they were completely dumbfounded about it all.
They couldn't figure that out at all.
You mean what couldn't they figure out?
You mean why he was killed?
Yeah, yeah.
Why or how, even that.
I mean, they...
And it's still a mystery today, to a large extent.
But...
Anyway, it was interesting to hear opinions from headquarters, from a headquarter guy.
So they were stunned by Kennedy's assassination.
Yes.
Even behind closed doors, as you call it.
Back then.
That's very interesting.
If you were to look at the time when you were behind closed doors and you left on good terms, you say, right?
Yeah.
Did other people leave at the same time you left or did people stay there?
Oh, they stayed there.
I was proselyted out.
What does that mean?
I went to work for a firm that had started up.
A fellow was a nationally known aerodynamicist and he founded his company and he wanted to grow it and he attracted me.
You can give yourself whatever name you want.
We're going to try to expand my company.
The thing was that he also had on these board of directors a professor from the Stanford Biz School.
Okay.
And it seemed to me like, you know, here's the chance, Norman, for you to grow.
But things did not work out for either of us that way.
Do you know why?
Yes.
Why?
I did come up with something that they could do.
It required the services of one of the gents that knew how to program the computer.
And that was the advantage of the outfit.
They said, I can handle any size computer that there is.
Okay, so the day came, and this fellow's name that owned the company, his name was Jack, and Jack called a fellow in and says, Norm's ready for you to program some things.
Jack, I'm gonna have to think about that.
Can I tell you over in the morning what my decision is?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, think it over.
Next day came, he says, Jack, I can't do it.
I am an aerodynamic specialist, and if I do this other, I ruin that.
It's a no-go.
Oh, how interesting.
Yeah, that was his attitude.
And you check around and the good guys still have that attitude.
Right, that they don't want to get their hands dirty, they don't want to be sort of tarred with the same brush.
They've chosen, you know, their route.
Straight and narrow.
Yeah, they need to come along and deviate of them.
They can't pack it.
That's very interesting.
And so, that's when we parted ways.
Hmm.
But it all has been a great learning process.
But you went out on the circuit and you did talk about Ringmakers a bit.
Yes, I did go out for a while.
Geez, I read an article just recently where somebody comes up and says we can get to the nearest star system.
You know, I gave a paper at one of the UFO organizations' speeches, and I told exactly how you'd go about it then.
And so now, you know, it comes along, oh, for Pete's sake.
And you did back when?
When was this?
In the 80s?
Well, it had to be after 85, 88, something like that.
So, are you, you know, I have so many questions.
Are you, would you say time travel is possible?
There's no way to do some of these things that has not been considered.
You know what Mach number is.
Einstein got together with Mach one time and asked him, how do you set up stuff in a reference manner?
I'm faced with that, what I'm doing.
And Mach says, you get a reference.
And the speed of sound is mine for aerodynamics.
And I can just see Einstein walking away.
What's the biggest number I can find?
You know, the speed of light.
All right, so it had commonly been thought that you can't go faster than the speed of light.
Right.
It had commonly thought that you couldn't go faster than the speed of sound.
I say, hey, wait a minute here.
Uh-uh.
Uh-uh.
You know I found like 16 samples of where astronomers measure things going faster than the suite of light.
Yes.
Okay.
Now there it sets up a new regime.
Okay.
So if, in other words, you're kind of alluding to the idea that if you're going faster than the speed of sound, we go into the area of time travel from that point on, right?
Yeah, however you want to mechanize it.
Okay.
What about these vehicles in the rings?
Aren't they going faster than the speed of light?
Oh, I don't know.
I've never seen one, you know, in that condition.
Okay.
Not at all.
Well, let's say, is it possible, I mean, I don't know how you want to classify this, but if those craft, or some of the craft, the smaller ones maybe, leave there and come here, isn't that possible?
Yeah, it's possible.
Okay.
And is it possible that they've been coming here on a regular basis?
I don't know about that.
I'd be in better shape to know about what you're asking.
See, now you're asking questions that are downstream from...
I understand.
And I'm not there yet.
Okay.
What about...
I'm still...
Okay, let me ask you this.
I remember that John Lear told me That you told him that you saw here in, I don't know, it was on the 101 going around, somewhere around Palo Alto or maybe Los Altos, and you saw what looked like a very low-flying jet that was a hologram.
And you determined it was a hologram because it actually, I guess, disappeared all of a sudden.
Well, that story is almost correct.
I was with this fellow Jack at the time.
I don't know whether you know where Gunn High School is over here or not, but we were In that vicinity.
And all of a sudden there was this huge sized airplane that flew over there.
It looked exactly like an airplane.
I said, Jack, did you see that?
Yeah.
But, you know, it was below the allowable level.
Yes.
And there were no complaints.
It had to be a picture, you know.
Really?
But did it disappear suddenly?
It was only there, just a fraction of the...
You know, you just gotta...
If you weren't looking, you'd miss it.
Really?
Yeah.
But it has to be going very, very quickly then.
Yeah, it was.
So, you determined that it was a hologram.
I didn't determine it.
It's just the fact that there weren't any critics around here that says, hey, there was an airplane flying below allowable levels and we gotta do something about that.
Because there's a lot of people like that around.
But there were none, so okay, so it had to be.
So that's, okay.
What year was that?
Oh, I don't know.
When I was with Jack...
Approximately.
Would this be the 80s, because you left?
Didn't you leave Lockheed right around?
Well, you wrote this book in 71, so...
You know, you can go on the net and look at my resume there and pick up numbers.
Exactly.
But I was just wondering, in terms of your recall, when you left the employee of Lockheed, Because it was too claustrophobic, as you said.
And then you went to work for this guy, Jack.
How long did that last before the computer guy came in and said he couldn't do the programming?
I mean, that must have been a pretty short time.
Well, I think it was like a couple of years.
A couple of years?
Okay, and do you know what a Cray computer is?
Yeah.
Okay, and would you say that was the level of what we're talking about, programming Cray?
Oh, this could have been done with a much simpler computer.
Ah, I see.
Okay, have you ever dealt with a Cray computer yourself?
No, I haven't.
But you know of their sort of being around.
Okay, in terms of this, again, this critical time that we're in, can you describe this time?
Do you see something happening in these times?
I mean, obviously we have critical things in terms of the world politics and economics and things of this nature.
But when you talk about critical, I'm actually seeing something...
To do with space.
Are you talking about, for example, you've heard of, you know, incoming planet, like the second sun.
I don't know if you believe this is a binary solar system.
Do you follow that theory at all?
Well, I guess the most critical thing I can see is that a lot of ice is leaving Antarctica.
Yes.
And that indeed will raise the sea level.
Okay.
And that indeed will cause some problems in many places.
And it'll have a negative impact on real estate if you own property.
Water, yeah, oceanfront property.
That, to me, seems like a no-brainer.
Have you talked to some remote viewers?
No.
No?
No.
Other than the story you said about the woman who looked down on the rings.
You know, that's interesting that somebody has that capability.
Right.
But it's not something that's acceptable scientifically.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, The craft, again the vehicles in the rings, you don't think they're mining, but you think they're using the energy to power themselves in essence.
Well, when you say power themselves...
Well, power the entity, the vehicle...
You know, the objects that I saw were very small inside the ring.
They were connected to the inside ring.
And it just seemed to me like, oh hey, these are babies.
And that's how I came up with the idea that they're nursing from the ring.
They're getting life strength and whatever you want to call it.
But I think that they, that's how they are growing is using the rings.
Now, in terms of mining, think about that level of thought.
Mining is something that we do here on Earth.
You don't have to be very bright to do mining.
How do I know?
Because I have worked in a mine.
So, we're dealing with lots of smarts.
And I don't think...
I mean, this is too low for them.
Minding is too low.
So, on two counts, I think, what we got there is a life form.
Absolutely.
Do you believe that we're communicating with them?
Have you had any evidence of that?
Oh no, no.
You know, we are not capable of doing that.
You know, SETI has tried to communicate with extraterrestrials and they haven't done it yet.
They have chosen the type of person, the type of entity that they want to communicate with is somebody that knows how to build radios.
Right.
That constrains them in their thinking immensely.
Right.
Okay.
Well, okay.
But, of course, we're Project Camelot, and we talk to people like Richard Hoagland and so on and so forth, and we...
I don't know if you've heard of Zachariah Sitchin.
Yeah.
And his theories.
He passed on recently.
Did you know him by the...
I met him, yeah.
You met him?
Yeah.
Did you ever talk about your theories with him?
Or your conclusions?
No.
No, we didn't have that much time.
It was more interesting listening to what he came up with.
There's a case where he's got some real solid stuff, but nobody wants to pay attention to it.
Right.
Richard Hoagland just recently said to me that he thinks he's seen cities in those rings.
Cities.
Cities.
He's seeing cities in the rings of Saturn.
Well, Richard has seen cities in lots of other places.
I would not call them cities myself.
Okay.
Now, I don't know specifically what he is talking about.
I mean, you know, if you want me to be specific, I'd have to look.
But he's thinking again of something like San Francisco or, you know, he looked down on it and there's a city, you know, Well, I'm not sure how he's characterized, you know, we didn't have a chance to talk about how he's characterizing this idea of a city.
In other words, it could be constructed of some sort of plasma?
Yeah, he had put that label on and...
What I do think he's seeing is organized structure of some sort.
Organized structures, yes.
I mean, there's lines going this way and then there's perpendicular to say.
So in a sense you would agree with him in that.
Yeah.
There's organized structures in the rings.
There can be straight lines out there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and any, almost any formation can be made that is desired.
So if he sees a checkerboard kind of thing, and that's a city.
It's not a city, but it is a checkerboard kind of thing.
When you talk about plasma, what are you talking about?
Are you talking about the same thing that Wilhelm Reich would be talking about when he talks about orgone?
Or is plasma like another stage of orgone?
There is one flight out to Saturn where the instrument flew by the ring.
And the idea was to sense the plasma in there.
It had a wide frequency range, and it turned out to be plasma.
And so it ticked, and they knew the speed, and they knew the time it took to pass the ring, and so they knew how thick it was.
Now that was a plasma indicator.
So it has been measured that indeed there is plasma rings.
But you read also where, oh, this is a bunch of broken up moons that got there, and there's confusion in their storytelling.
But the rings that are suddenly appearing around Uranus, these are not broken up moons, right?
Um, you know, all I can say is, you know, the rings are there, and my interpretation is, by inference, I see the rings, so somewhere there's an EMV, and they're never where you think they're going to be.
Do you, uh, have you thought about the idea that, um, I guess I talked to Sean David Morton, who met you years ago?
I don't know if you remember Sean?
Sean David Morton.
He's sort of a psychic and he lives in Southern California.
Anyway, he's a friend of mine.
And he said that recently they've actually photographed, I guess, the top of Saturn and they've seen that there's a hexagonal shape.
You've heard of that?
Yes.
That seems to support your theory or your conclusions.
That's what he said.
Do you agree with that?
Yeah, any geometric form can be made.
Okay.
But you don't see anything...
I mean, isn't there a significance to the hexagon in the Saturn symbology?
Well, I would never expect a hexagon there, but I have never expected to see some of the other things I've seen either, so I did want to visit a center in the write-up I did because there are some things that need to be fleshed out for people.
Okay.
And if I haven't lost it on my discs, I'll be able to make a nice little story about all that.
Okay.
If you haven't lost it, in other words, if it wasn't stolen?
Yeah, or boogered up.
Erased and messed with?
Okay, well, I'm running out of tape here again, right?
And I guess we've been going for quite some time, so I don't want to tire you out too much.
But is there anything that we haven't covered that you'd like to say to make it part of this presentation here?
They could ask me to be Vice President.
Because you'd like to change the policy and what's going on.
Yeah.
And you've had clearances way above top secret.
So in a sense, they should be coming to you for advice, I would say.
Yeah, they should.
Yeah.
Well, let's recommend that.
Let's recommend that they come to Norm Bergram.
One guy, not too long ago, was bitching about the candidates.
And I said, Jack, you can just write my name in, can't you?
He said, yeah, hey, that's a good idea.
Did you know, I just want to know, did you know Arthur C. Clarke?
No.
You know, I didn't go that rude.
I have been always so much up to here, sort of career-wise, what I've been involved in.
I haven't been the social guy I should have been.
Hopefully that's going to change.
Okay.
I'd like to see that.
I'm a type that is pretty flexible.
Uh-huh.
Well, certainly you must be, if you've done all the things you've talked about, and you also are able to, you've obviously worked in areas of policy as well.
Yeah, well, see, that came about by...
The Prof at Cornell called me in one time and said, how would you like to grade papers, law papers?
And I said, oh, that sounds good to me.
And I said, but what we do when it comes to mine?
He says, you grade it just exactly like you grade the others, but give it to me afterwards.
But he told me that As an engineer, you really ought to get law under your belt.
Because you know the nomenclature, and these are the guys that are running the country, basically.
And they really don't know about some things that they should, but they just do it.
So over a period of ten years, I got a law degree.
Oh you did?
Wow, that's incredible.
On top of everything else you were doing, you got a law degree.
I found it just exactly like the prophet said, yeah.
And that's what made it so easy to go in, otherwise I wouldn't have done it.
I see.
Okay, Norm Bergram, I believe that there's more that you could be telling us, but I understand that you still have some secrecy or oaths.
Is that correct?
You're kind of abiding by those?
I could tell you a lot of war stories the answer you know I could tell you a lot of stuff that's sort of related to all this but give me some more time and I'm set myself up so I don't have to make my own bed I don't have to cook some meals and all this and TV will be taken care of for me.
Just a lot of things will go to zero.
I see.
And so Norm is going to have some more time to do some things to get it together.
Okay, but are the people that are making this possible going to let you go out and talk about it?
Yes.
Yes, they are.
And I already tweet them.
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