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Dec. 6, 2018 - Project Camelot

02:12:37

TERRY LOVELACE - ABDUCTION AT DEVILS DEN

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	Thank you.
	Hi, everyone.
	I'm Carrie Cassidy from Project Camelot and very happy to be here tonight.
	We have a very fascinating guest tonight, Terry Loveless.
	He's the author of a fascinating book.
	It is called Incident at Devil's Den and was on my banner, but I'm going to just put the title here on the screen so you can see it.
	And I highly recommend purchasing and reading this book because It is so well written and so fascinating.
	It really reads like an exciting mystery novel, I guess you might say.
	It is kind of daunting in parts.
	And I think he's a very brave man to have written it.
	And I want to thank him very much for coming on the show tonight.
	So I'm going to look at his bio.
	I'm going to bring him on the screen for you.
	And Terry, say hello to everyone.
	Hi, good evening.
	How's everyone?
	Nice to be here.
	So you are an attorney, is that correct?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And we've got his, if you go to my site, projectcamelot.tv, we have a sort of a short rundown on his story taken from Amazon.
	And we've got a link over to Amazon so you can also get his book.
	Basically, it says here, I'm just going to take the first paragraph or so.
	It says he's a 64-year-old lawyer, former assistant attorney general.
	Sorry about that.
	And In 2012, a routine x-ray of his leg found an anomalous bit of metal the size of a fingernail with only two tiny wires attached.
	What followed were horrific nightmares, spontaneous recall, and intrusive thoughts surrounding a 1977 camping trip.
	That he took with a friend to Devil's Den State Park in northern Arkansas.
	And I guess you've kept quiet, it says, for 40 years, but the object was something that...
	Basically brought back the memories and then you actually went on a saga to have it removed and you've had doctors involved, etc.
	So, in a sense, you've got proof of something extremely anomalous happening to you and an And an implant besides, or at least more than one.
	So, Terry, what I'd like you to do is give yourself your own introduction.
	You were in the military back when this happened, if I understand it correctly.
	And if you can explain your relationship to the military, how long you spent in the military, and then we can kind of, you know, your background as a lawyer, and then we can launch into the story.
	Sure.
	I was in the United States Air Force from 1973 to 1979, a total of six years.
	Finished my commitment to the military, finished college, finished undergrad.
	My undergrad degree is in psychology.
	I went to law school, passed the bar, and started a legal career.
	The reason Everyone said, why did you wait until now to come forward with all this?
	Why wait 40 years?
	Well, because as a member of the legal community, I can tell you that without a doubt, I'd have been ostracized.
	I'm sure I'd lost my job, and certainly my standing in the legal community would have been zilch.
	It would have been devastating to my career.
	And I had no reason to write this book, and really no inclination to do so.
	I intended to take this, my wife and I know, and I intended to take this to my grave.
	And then in 2012, I fall, and my knee gives out.
	I fall, I go to the hospital, and they take this x-ray.
	Tech asked me first, do you have a shrapnel wound or something in your leg that account for a piece of metal, maybe some wires?
	And I'm scoffed and I'm like, no, I never left the States.
	I've never had an accident with that knee other than a fall today.
	And she took a total of eight shots.
	I find out later that the Air Force took, pardon me, the Veterans Administration took 24 shots in my knee.
	So I asked her, I said, can I see what you're looking at?
	And she said, sure.
	And she popped the x-ray up in an x-ray box.
	And you don't need a medical degree to see this.
	It's playing in the back of my book.
	You can see it.
	It looks like a computer chip in my leg with two wires running up toward my head.
	And she says, I have no idea what this is, but I've asked a radiologist to come down and take a look at it for us.
	So, by the time she said that, a man walks in with the lab coat and a cup of coffee, and walks over, looks at the x-ray, and says, mm-hmm.
	Walks over to me and says, I don't know what this is, but it's a man-made object.
	And he said, the scar will be right here.
	He asked me, how did you get this in your leg?
	I said, I don't know.
	I've never had an injury.
	And he says, well, you know, sometimes you're going to have an injury when you're a child, maybe.
	Or forget.
	You know, but there's going to be a scar because this thing had to get into your leg by some means.
	And anytime you've reached the integrity of the skin, it's going to leave a scar.
	So he was so confident he went over and poked my leg and said that the scar should be right here.
	And he examined my leg.
	He went as far as turning off the lights and using a handheld blacklight because he said that scar tissue would fluoresce under a blacklight.
	And he was dumbfounded.
	And I asked him, I said, Doctor, how often is it that you find something like this in someone without a corresponding scar?
	And he said, never.
	I said, I've never, in 23 years in radiology, I've never seen it.
	And that brought us to the objects below my knee.
	And below my knee is a floret pattern of tiny bones.
	They look like bones.
	His exact words were, they're the density of bone, but I think not.
	Bone doesn't just sprout in the middle of your calf muscle.
	When you look at the x-ray, you can see they look like they're there with organization.
	They're not just there with happenstance.
	There to form a pattern.
	So they found the reason for my knee pain, gave me some crutches.
	I had a baker's cyst.
	Not a big deal.
	It resolves on its own in two weeks.
	But they cut me loose, and obviously I was disturbed by this whole chain of events.
	And I realized, I wish I'd thought of it in the radiology world.
	In 1980, when I left the United States Air Force, I started running.
	I was an off-and-runner most of my life.
	And I noticed, beginning in 1980, every time I passed the two-mile mark in my run, there's an area on my lower thigh and to the right, about the size of between a quarter and a half dollar in size, a spot that would go completely numb.
	And I could take a pin and stick it in And discern the outline of it.
	It was a circle.
	And that happened, like I said, without fail, every time I hit that two-mile mark.
	And then it would fade away in about 30 minutes.
	And I asked my doctor, Doctor, what about you?
	And he's like, well, is it causing you any problem with your run?
	And I told him, honestly, no.
	He said, well, don't worry about it.
	So I didn't.
	But driving home from the hospital that night, I didn't worry about it.
	Because we're halfway home and I made the connection that that numb spot that I've experienced over my leg is directly over where this thing was found.
	And we, you know, my wife and I never talked about the camping trip much because every time we did, it brought back just horrific nightmares for me.
	And she had to deal with a husband, you know, screaming in the middle of the night.
	And we found that we'd been conditioned, I think.
	As long as we avoided the topic, we got on just fine.
	But if we started to talk about it, I'd have nightmares.
	So I want to stop you right there because, you know, I read your book and I was always fascinated because you said this phrase a lot.
	But what you don't do that much is explain what constitutes a horrific nightmare for you, because, you know, People, when they have nightmares, what is a sort of frightening thing to one person is sometimes not frightening to another.
	It might not even sound frightening.
	But I'm wondering, what do you mean when you say horrifically frightening?
	Do you know what you're talking about or do you just have a memory of being afraid?
	No, I have a good memory.
	The nightmares reoccur.
	There are a couple of different varieties.
	And they always end up with me screaming and waking up.
	The one that I have had the most over the years is probably the one with the monkeys in my room when I was a kid.
	In my book, I explain when I was a kid, I had these four little circus monkeys that would appear in my room.
	Of course, my folks told me, you know, that's a dream, don't worry about it.
	And these monkeys, the one nearest my head would always fold out a paw And say, won't you come with us, Terry?
	Come on, we'll go play.
	And I think, now have I been with these?
	Have I gone with them before?
	And the nightmare that I have is being seven years old again or so, and seeing this monkey, the same monkey in my room, and he's holding out a paw, only instead of a monkey paw, it's four long, ugly fingers.
	And when I see the fingers of that hand, I just...
	This is, as an adult, you're afraid, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So now I want to ask you one more question before we continue.
	I can't remember, and I'm actually wondering if in the book you show pictures of this, you know, the implant, what they found, the photographs of it, that sort of thing.
	Do you have that?
	You know, I don't.
	If you go to the back of the book, you'll see the x-rays.
	The disposition of the thing, where it went, is probably the most interesting part of the story.
	I didn't know what this thing was, but I knew I wanted it out of my leg.
	So, I get all my medical care from the VA, and I talked to three surgeons, and they all gave me the same answer.
	You know, if it's not bothering you, why take it out?
	And when I pressed the issue, they said, fine, we'll take it out for you, but you've got to have a cardiologist clearance.
	And no cardiologist would clear me.
	The issue being, I had a heart attack in 2005.
	I have some residual issues from that.
	And the practice of care is, in medical terms, it's called a non-therapeutic procedure, a non-therapeutic procedure.
	So it's nothing that they would recommend do unless a cardiologist clears me.
	So I went to the outside.
	I went and paid a lot of money to talk to private surgeons thinking I could get the same thing done.
	And when they look at my medical history, they always say, well, sure, you know, we can do this for you, but you've got to have a clearance letter from a cardiologist.
	and I'd ask them to recommend a cardiologist and I went to see I saw a dozen well maybe dozens in exaggeration probably eight private cardiologists cost a lot of money but I never could get a cardiologist to give me a clearance letter so what if the cardiologist gave you a clearance letter what does that mean it means that it's that means that I'm healthy enough to have the surgery But
	you had, you did, okay, maybe I'm confused.
	You did have the surgery, didn't you?
	I did not.
	Oh, okay.
	So then that's, okay, that's when it disappears, right?
	Exactly.
	This is where it gets complicated, and this is where, you know, it's kind of hard to follow.
	And what happened was, I had in 2016, when I decided I'm going to write this book, Because I want people to know about this stuff.
	And I'm writing the book, and I've got it fleshed out in an outline.
	And this corresponds to about the time I started to lose weight, which was pretty dramatic.
	One night in October 2017, just not long ago, I woke up in my living room, sitting bolt upright, And seated across from me is what I took to be a petite Asian woman.
	She's short.
	She's wearing a black blouse, black slacks, black shoes.
	She's sitting in a non-threatening posture.
	I glance over at the alarm system.
	the alarm system's not tripped and I remember thinking I should scream for my wife and I thought no they got that cover too because My wife had an incident, we think, with the same woman.
	My wife's one and only event in 44 years was in 1987.
	She rolled over and went to find me in the bed, and I wasn't there.
	And she said at the foot of the bed was a small hooded woman, silhouetted against the back window.
	And this figure told my wife, everything's okay, go back to sleep.
	And that's what she did.
	And she didn't have memory of this for about two days.
	And then she said, I gotta tell you about this weird dream I had.
	So I don't think that was a dream.
	And I thought, you know, if they could visit us in 1987, they can surely do it in 2017.
	And She is wearing a wig that's on kind of askew, sideways, and it's a human wig.
	I think she had a bulbous back to her head.
	It was too large.
	Her head was too large for the wig.
	And she wore oversized sunglasses that hid most of her face.
	And as soon as I thought, my God, I wish she'd removed those sunglasses, she did.
	And we began to speak Telepathically.
	Anyone who's ever experienced or had a telepathic conversation, it is extremely frightening.
	Your mind is an open book.
	It's not like you formulate what you want to say and then verbalize it.
	As you're thinking, as your thought process is going on, Your mind's an open book to her.
	My mind was an open book to her.
	And my first thought was, can't I keep my thoughts secret?
	And she shot back and said, you can if you try.
	Now, I don't know.
	I don't believe her, but that's what she said.
	And of course, my next thought was, why are you in my living room and why am I here?
	And She kind of dodged the question and I pressed it and I said, is this about this thing in my leg?
	And she says, yes.
	You should not write your book.
	There are some things in your book that you should not talk about.
	And I said, well, you know, what's the big deal?
	Lots of people write books.
	And she said, no, you've had some experiences that you shouldn't share.
	And I'm like, okay.
	And when I fire a thought at her direction, if it makes sense, I would try to aim for her forehead.
	She would answer my question almost before I got it out of my mouth.
	And it's very frustrating.
	But I've heard that.
	I've read that that other people have had that experience, too.
	Right.
	Okay, but this is a meeting that happened a long time after your abduction experiences, right?
	My abduction experience was 1977.
	I had the lost time experience in 1987, 10 years later.
	And then this is 2017 that I find myself in the living room with this woman seated across from me.
	Okay, now I do want to come back to the woman seated across from you because that is very crucial, especially once people know the whole story.
	But this is, you know, and I know, let me just say this, that I know that you have been on several shows, right?
	And so it's, for people that are listening to you and have seen you on various shows, they're going to know the story.
	But every time you tell it, it may also contain slight differences, maybe.
	And so it's still valuable.
	But for those, you know, there'll be plenty of listeners who don't know your story.
	And so we do want to go over it.
	I just hope that you're going to be able to bear with it.
	And then at the same time, you know, since you're having to repeat yourself, I don't know how.
	How hard it is for you to go through the story over and over again.
	I do want to be sensitive to that.
	Is it okay if I put photos from your book on the screen for the public to see as we go through things?
	Yes, please.
	I wish you would.
	Is this tiring for you to tell the same story?
	Do you feel comfortable with it?
	Does it upset you or are you very comfortable with it now?
	I'm not comfortable with it.
	I'm a little bit...
	It's easier than it was at first.
	And, you know, I heard John Lear mention UFO disease or UFO syndrome, something where people keep having to add and come up with new details.
	And I don't think I do that.
	If I do do that, it's certainly unintentional.
	Because, you know, I'm dredging up memories from 1977 and 1987.
	But, you know, the circumstances were such that in 1977, I had an interaction with the OSI, and I thought perhaps I could be facing the court-martial.
	So my wife suggested, why don't you write this down and create a chronology of all the events that happened, So that if they charge you with something, you know, we have something to hand a lawyer and say, here's what happened.
	Here's the truth.
	And I did that.
	And that preserved a lot.
	And my wife kept those notebooks.
	And that's what I used to flesh out the book.
	So also, after...
	When 1978 began, that's when the nightmares really kicked in.
	And I was really having trouble coping with them.
	And my wife suggested that I keep a journal by my bed.
	And when I wake up with one of these nightmares, journal it as a way of helping to cope with it.
	And I think that may have helped.
	Or they may have just ebbed with the passage of time.
	Well, it seems like, at least when I read your book, your journaling not only probably helped you write the book more easily all those years in the future, but at the same time, there are some very crucial bits that you remembered because you had to look in the journal.
	Yes.
	You know, the big picture of things, you know, I give it akin to...
	Let's say 40 years ago you witnessed a train wreck or an airplane crash.
	You know, the totality of the thing you're going to carry with you for the rest of your life.
	But, you know, like old photographs, I mean, some of the images are faded around the edges as the years go by.
	But I think, thanks to my...
	I don't think I know, because my...
	My wife was so insistent that I journal these things that I preserved a pretty decent journal of what happened.
	Excellent.
	So at this point, can we go on the trip with you, this crazy camping trip that came out of the blue and you became obsessed with?
	I mean, it's, you know, this is a great movie, I have to say, even though it's a tragedy, in a sense.
	And I guess the ending is still to be seen.
	But, you know, but go ahead.
	Please lead us through the story.
	Sure.
	1977, I was in the Air Force, obviously, and my work partner was a young man from Flint, Flint, Michigan, about my age, and we worked together, and by choice, we worked the night shift, 11 to 7.
	We did so because I was taking evening classes at an extension university on base, and I refer to him in the book as Tobias.
	And Toby wanted to work the night shift because he was just fascinated with the night sky.
	You know, he wanted to be an astronomer or cosmologist.
	His dream was to go to University of Michigan.
	And he was a really, really bright kid who took and passed some really hairy physics classes.
	As a matter of fact, went as far as he could go without having to go travel to the campus.
	So he was a bright guy.
	And we were kind of known as like the geeks in the squadron, if that makes sense.
	We were bookish, I guess is what they called us.
	And I had a darkroom set up in my second bedroom of my house.
	We lived in NCO housing.
	And photography was my hobby.
	But unfortunately, if photography is your hobby and you live on a nuclear base...
	There's not a lot you can take pictures of.
	So I took a lot of pictures of the moon, and I took a lot of pictures of wildlife.
	So Toby came up to me and said, hey man, let's go camping.
	And I said, Toby, are you nuts?
	You know, we're not outdoor guys.
	I've never been camping.
	You've never been camping.
	He's like, no, think about it, man.
	He says, you can photograph some wildlife.
	You can photograph eagles.
	This is the place to go.
	And he sold me on Devil's Den, even though there were half a dozen beautiful state parks within 30 minutes of where we were stationed.
	And I was kind of resistant to the idea at first, and within a few days, it became almost an obsessive thought.
	And, you know, it was contingent on our wives' blessing, of course, and my wife Gave her blessing.
	She said, yeah, it's okay to go.
	So we went.
	We assembled everything that we could think of.
	We made lists.
	And the entire trip down there was a series of missteps, as you read in the book.
	And I don't know if I have time.
	I don't really have time to go through all of those.
	Except to say that we left with this feeling of elation.
	We were absolutely over the moon.
	We were thrilled.
	And we drove to Devil's Den, and we had decided already that we weren't going to stay in the campgrounds.
	And the reason for that is, and Toby made the analogy, if you stay in a campground, you might as well go camping, you know, in a parking lot somewhere, because you're going to have people all around you.
	And kind of the object of the exercise, if you will, was to find a place to hide ground, Where Toby could do some sky watching and a place where I could photograph some wildlife.
	So we skirted the park ranger station and you know I think I state this in my book that in retrospect it really seemed like Toby knew where to go.
	And we he drove, I drove, he guided us And we were on a blacktop road with a...
	We passed a sign that said no admittance.
	And the road degraded to gravel.
	And eventually we got to a point where there was a chain across the road with a lock on it.
	But they just locked the chain into a loop and draped it over this post.
	So Toby just hopped out and picked up this chain off the post and dropped it.
	And we drove in.
	And he did something very important.
	He grabbed a bank statement, a bank envelope, pardon me, from my glove box and a pencil.
	And he said, I'm going to make a map where we're going here because there are no landmarks and I don't want to get us lost in here.
	And thank God he did that.
	And we drove and he would direct me and say, turn here and turn here.
	And eventually, we drove up onto what was a meadow, a big open field.
	And it was awesome.
	And we were awestruck by it when we pulled up on it.
	It was a beautiful place.
	It was an open field with a tree line to our back, a tree line about three-quarters of the way around.
	To our right, there was a small boulder field, and then down from that, there was some running water, a creek.
	And it was a beautiful place.
	And I pulled into the middle of the meadow, and I said, this is it.
	Let's set up our camp here.
	And Toby said, no, no, no, we can't stay here.
	He says, this isn't right.
	Let's park over by the tree line.
	And we argued back and forth about this.
	It was rare that Toby didn't cave.
	And he finally won, and we set up camp with our backs to the tree line and the open field in front of us.
	And I describe in the book that we took a hike.
	Toby wanted to set up camp right away, as soon as we got there, and that would have been the wise thing to do.
	But I was tired.
	We'd been driving.
	I wanted to stretch my legs.
	I told Toby, you know, look, let's go for a little hike.
	I mean, we were in the best shape of our lives.
	Let's go for a hike and we'll come back and set up camp.
	And, you know, okay, okay.
	So we grabbed a jug of water and Toby led the way just because he had an unerring sense of direction and mine is terrible.
	And we just kind of explored the place.
	There was a creek there, there was a lot of beautiful scenery around, and it was just a gorgeous place in June.
	And we came to a limestone outcropping that had a canopy of a tree, a tree with a canopy of leaves over it.
	And when we got to it and we put our hand on it and felt that the, you know, the rock was nice and cool.
	And I think that we probably hiked three and a half, maybe four miles.
	And we decided, well, we're going to take a break.
	And we both kicked back and relaxed.
	And now, this I don't understand.
	I was tired from the drive, but I was not sleepy.
	Not at all.
	Toby and I somehow both fell asleep.
	And I closed my eyes and I was just gone.
	And the next thing I recall was Toby kicking me and screaming with expletives, get up, get up!
	And I'm like, what's wrong?
	What's wrong?
	I wake up and I can see it's late, late in the afternoon.
	And he says, man, it's going to get dark soon.
	We don't want to be stuck out here in a dark.
	We've got to get back before sundown.
	And we're arguing back and forth about, well, why'd you fall asleep?
	No, why'd you fall asleep?
	And bickered a little bit, but the important thing was that we get back to the campground, and we got there about the time.
	It was about twilight.
	It wasn't dark yet, but it was close.
	And we sprinted the last distance to the car, and I backed the car up so I could kick on the high beams, because Toby said he needed light to put the tent up.
	He staked the tent and did some other things while I went and collected some wood and brush and whatever I could put my hands on to make a fire.
	I made two big stacks of mostly brush.
	We did the things you normally do when you go camping.
	We ate barbecue and hot dogs.
	Night sets in.
	And the crickets and tree frogs are loud, and it's a beautiful evening.
	And I remember I say to Toby, you know, this must be the allure of camping.
	This must be why people enjoy this, because this is nice.
	This is really very nice.
	And, you know, he had to gloat and say, yeah, man, this is, you know, I told you, this is the place to go.
	You know, tomorrow you're going to get some good photographs, and I'm going to watch the night sky.
	And he was watching the night sky.
	And I noticed there was a lull in our conversation, and I noticed that the tree frogs and the crickets that were there earlier had gone.
	They were silent.
	And that unnerved me a little bit.
	And I recall, and I don't think I put this in the book, but it's true, I recall looking at a tree from our campfire.
	I could see, I had a good view of the tree in back of us, and with the fire Fire was dancing, but I could see the leaves on the tree were absolutely still.
	I mean, so still, it was almost like looking at a 3D image.
	And we'd had a nice, cool breeze earlier.
	And I asked Toby, I said, Toby, is this normal?
	He's like, yeah, yeah, you know, the tree frogs, all that stuff, they'll come back.
	We've been loud.
	We've been laughing.
	They'll be back.
	And that stuck with me.
	And We're sitting on these air mattresses just having a conversation and Toby keeps jerking his head to the left and he says, hey man, were those there before?
	And I said, were those what there before?
	And he pointed to the west and low on the horizon were three stars.
	Three bright stars.
	And they were just High enough above the horizon that we could tell that they weren't road lights or parking lot lights or anything like that.
	This was definitely, whatever it was, it was in the air.
	But it was small.
	They were about as brilliant as bright stars.
	Again, three of them in a perfect triangle.
	And we're debating, you know, what are these things?
	We were familiar with aircraft.
	We knew that there was no aircraft They flew that kind of light configuration and as we're watching it, they moved and they rotated like they were on an axis and they made about a three-quarter turn and stopped.
	And we're really excited and we're agitated and thrilled and We're watching this thing and then it starts to move up into the sky.
	And it ascended straight up.
	And we could see that these three points of light were connected.
	They weren't three independent lights perfectly choreographed.
	They were, this was one solid object.
	As it got bigger, you could tell the area inside the triangle was much darker than the blue of the night sky.
	And the stars grew brighter proportionately.
	as it got higher into the sky and this is about the time I had this feeling of calm wash over me and you know I know Toby felt it too and it was disinterest almost not quite apathy you know we were observers but we weren't we weren't as excited about this As the
	circumstances warranted.
	And we're watching it, and we watched the thing, and it would tumble, so you would see two lights, and then one, pardon me, three lights, and then two, and then, you know, but it was definitely not, you could tell it was guided.
	It was intelligently moving, if that makes sense.
	It wasn't just something randomly tumbling around in the sky.
	And it was moving, and it was moving in our direction.
	And I asked Toby, because I felt that feeling of calm wash over me, and I asked Toby, I said, Toby, are you scared now?
	And he said, no, man, I'm not scared.
	Are you scared?
	And I replied, no, I don't think so.
	Should we be?
	And he didn't answer that.
	And then there was We've hardly a word spoken between us as we watch this thing get higher and move in our direction, and it was big.
	We could tell that it was big.
	I wouldn't be able to tell how big exactly until later, but it was big.
	And while we're watching this thing, it comes and parks.
	About 30 feet over the floor of the meadow, pardon me, 3,500 feet over the meadow, maybe 2,500 to 3,000 feet.
	It's hard to estimate the size because the thing was so big and there was nothing to compare it to relationship-wise.
	But it was high over our heads.
	And while we're sitting at the campfire, there was a column of white light that came from an area underneath the triangle which was just dark.
	The three lights were there and they were bright and this beam of light about six inches in diameter it's like it flipped the switch and it was on and it was centered right in the middle of our campfire and it was it was a visible beam of light it was like a searchlight cutting through fog it It was visible being a light.
	And for watching this, and I don't think either of us said a word.
	Or maybe something like, whoa.
	And Toby said, you know, I'm going to see what happens if I signal it.
	And I wasn't close enough to snatch it from his hands because even though I wasn't frightened, I didn't think that was a good idea.
	But that's what he did.
	And he aimed this This flashlight raised his arm and pointed it toward this thing over our heads and flipped it on a couple of times.
	I think three times.
	And that's when the column of white light came.
	The column of white light came immediately after Toby did the signaling thing.
	And the white light lasted with us for about Just about two minutes.
	Not very long at all.
	And then as abruptly as it came on, it flipped off.
	And then in its place came what I call a laser.
	In 1977, I wasn't familiar with lasers, but it was a pencil-thin beam of light, and it was bluish-violet in color.
	And it would hit the campground in one spot and then flip off and then in a millisecond later appear somewhere else and it gave the illusion it did that you know several times a second so it gave the illusion that this beam of light was dancing all around the campsite and that's what it was doing and it struck me on my chest it struck Toby it
	struck the car the tent And this lasted a little longer than the white light.
	This lasted maybe four or five minutes.
	And then it flips off.
	And again, I feel this wave of calm, sedation wash over me.
	And we sat there silent for a period of time.
	And Toby says, you know, show's over.
	And he stood up and picked up his air mattress, and I did the same.
	And we both went and went into the tent.
	And here's this thing 3,000 feet over our head, and we didn't care.
	I threw my air mattress down, and I laid down on it, and I was fully clothed.
	I kept my boots on.
	And I remember thinking, you know, Toby was wrong.
	The tree frogs never did come back.
	And I could hear him snoring as soon as his head hit the pillow.
	And I was out like a light.
	And just no dreams, just sleep, sound sleep.
	And I woke up to flashing lights.
	There were lights flashing and they were green and yellow and white.
	And I thought, You know, what are these?
	And my mind's racing because when I woke up, I didn't have my wits about me.
	I was confused.
	I felt like I had to claw my way up to consciousness.
	And I'm thinking, are these flashing overhead lights from a ranger's truck maybe?
	And there was a mechanical droning sound that wasn't so much loud as it was powerful.
	If you've ever stood next to like a locomotor or a train engine, a piece of heavy machinery, or a large speaker at a concert, and you can feel it reverberate in your chest, it was that kind of thing.
	And I thought, you know, somebody running a generator in the back of a truck, that doesn't make sense.
	And I got to my knees, and I realized every muscle in my body hurt.
	And it's dark in the tent, Until the lights flashed, and the only things that I could see inside the tent were when the lights flashed.
	And I saw that Toby was on his knees, and he had peeled back his flap of the tent, and he was looking out at the meadow, and obviously very interested in something.
	And I asked him, I said, Toby, what is it?
	Is it Park Rangers?
	What's out there?
	And he's like, shh, be quiet.
	They're still out there.
	And I'm like, who's still out there, Toby?
	And he said, they took us, Terry.
	And then it kind of hit me, and not the full thing, but I knew where I was, and something bad had happened to us.
	And I know between the flashes of light that Toby has cried.
	He's got tears, streaks of tears down his face.
	And I thought, my God, what could move this guy to crane?
	So I got to my knees, and I pulled back the flap on my tent, and I looked out, and I saw what looked like between 12 and 15 little children, what I took to be children.
	And I asked Toby in a whisper, I said, Toby, what are these kids doing out here in the middle of the night?
	And he said, Terry, those aren't little kids.
	And, you know, that's...
	When I looked again, I could tell the bodies were disproportionate.
	The head was disproportionate to the body.
	And the gait was different.
	Didn't walk like humans walk.
	And they were in pairs of twos and threes.
	And the most impressive thing was this huge craft that was...
	3,000 feet over our heads had descended.
	It was now just 30 feet above the floor of the meadow.
	And that's when I could see how big the thing was.
	Okay, now, sorry, but I want to put this picture on the screen.
	It's from your book.
	And this is the triangle drawing that you did, correct?
	Correct.
	I drew the original of that in 1978.
	In a notebook.
	And then I carefully redrew it in 2014 when I decided that this was going to go to a book.
	So we're watching these little guys walk around.
	And we heard footsteps, like rustling of leaves.
	So I think they were near where we were.
	They were near a campsite.
	And again, the size of this thing, and this is hard to fathom.
	It's just another thing that's hard to believe, but true.
	This thing was a city block long on each side.
	And it was five stories tall.
	It was as big as a five, it was like somebody levitated a five-story office building, 30 feet over the floor of this field.
	And on each corner, there was a light panel.
	That ran from the very bottom to the very top.
	And there were white, orange, yellow, mixed colors of lights.
	Didn't see any red or purple or anything like that.
	And these lights were flashing on and off, not in sync, just randomly.
	And we could see that the inside of this thing must have been brilliantly lit inside because there was light just pouring out of the windows.
	And at the top was what looked to us like an observation deck.
	It was a window all the way around.
	There were windows dispersed, you know, here and there on the body of the thing, but up at the top.
	And we saw shadows moving.
	We didn't see figures.
	We only saw shadows moving.
	And the little guys that I described earlier, Another beam of light came down from the center of the triangle, and this time it's 30 feet in diameter.
	And it's, again, it has that same white light quality to it that's like a searchlight cutting through fog.
	And these little guys would walk into it in pairs and in threes and just dissolve into it.
	And we watched this go on until the last two stepped into this column of light and they dissolved.
	And then shortly thereafter, this light flips off and the hum goes away.
	The hum stops.
	And the lights on, you know, there was a light panel on the apex of all three points of the triangle.
	and they switched from colored lights to all white lights and the thing we watched it because we were afraid to move and my friend Toby's hyperventilating and I'm like Toby you gotta get a grip you gotta stop hyper get a hold of your breathing and we're watching and the thing takes off and when I say takes off I should say lifts off because it moved Like
	a hot air balloon.
	And it just moved up into the air.
	On these light bars, the beam of light kind of ran up and down this light panel.
	And I recall thinking, that's what gives it the illusion of a twinkling star when it's up in the sky.
	We both rolled over on our backs, and we watched this thing until it was a single point of light, and then it was gone.
	And still no tree frogs or crickets, still quiet, and we are scared out of our wits.
	We are talking in a whisper, and it's probably 30 minutes or more that we're sitting there because we're just afraid.
	And Toby said, we need a plan.
	We need to get out of here.
	This tent was just canvas, but the idea of being out in the open between the tent and the car was frightening to me.
	I felt like we'd be vulnerable.
	And the overriding sensation that we had was number one was fear, number two was thirst.
	I had never in my life been so thirsty.
	And I grabbed my wallet and my keys.
	Toby had the flashlight.
	And Toby said, all right, let's go.
	And we sprinted to the car and got in.
	And luckily, Toby had that map.
	Because had he not made that map, we'd have just been lost.
	I mean, there are no landmarks.
	It's all trees.
	So we got to leave the park.
	And understand, this is 1977, and this is a very built-up area now, which is why they took the Minutemen missiles out of there.
	But what used to be, at the time, this is all soybean fields, corn fields, and virgin forests.
	There's very few, you know, little towns, and so as thirsty as we are, I said, Toby, you know, I'll stop the first place I can find and we'll get something to drink.
	Yeah, the thirst was just terrible.
	And we drove for an hour.
	And it's just dawning.
	It's just dawn.
	Okay.
	Go ahead.
	But you also were in physical pain, were you not?
	You made quite a big thing of this in the book, of how much pain you were in, and that Toby also seemed to be actually ill.
	And when you were driving, didn't he fall asleep?
	He fell asleep as soon as he hit the car.
	I mean, as soon as he navigated us back to Blacktop.
	My old car had a bench seat, and he curled into like a fetal position, and he was snoring.
	He was out.
	And yeah, I hurt.
	As I said, in the tent, I noticed that every muscle in my body hurt.
	And I had, you know, body aches like you had a fever.
	And I didn't know it, but I did have a fever.
	We drove for an hour before we found a place to stop to get something to drink.
	I ran in first and I washed my face and cut my hands into the faucet and drank as much as I could hold.
	That's when I noticed that I was beet red.
	My face was red.
	I pulled up my shirt.
	My stomach was red.
	I was sunburned all over and that made no sense.
	I never took off my clothing.
	Never removed my shirt, even.
	And my eyes are so sensitive to the light that, and that was part of the splashing, putting some cold water felt so good on my eyes.
	I had a pair of sunglasses, but they really weren't a lot of use.
	I mean, I wore them.
	So this is daylight?
	This is dawn.
	Dawn is just breaking.
	It's daylight.
	And I open the door and there's Toby leaning up against the pole.
	And if I thought I looked bad, he was like a train wreck.
	He looked terrible.
	His face was badly swollen.
	His eyes were almost swollen shut.
	And he was sad.
	I hurt.
	I hurt.
	And I knew what he meant.
	And we went inside the little store, and I bought a six-pack of orange soda, and he bought a gallon of grape drink.
	And we got back to the car, and I drank all six of these cans, one right after another, and I was still thirsty.
	And Toby drank almost all of his.
	And I remember the thought crossed my mind as we're driving back.
	Because I was still thirsty, and he's sleeping, I thought, you know what?
	I could take his drink and just kill it.
	He'd never know.
	And I thought, you know, where'd that thought come from?
	That's not me.
	I don't think like that.
	But here this guy was.
	He was my best friend.
	And something had changed.
	We had changed.
	Our relationship was different.
	And We both got back in the car and the sunshine was just like sand in my eyes.
	We drove north and came to the airbase and I pulled up to the driveway.
	Toby had nothing but his flashlight.
	We left everything at the campsite.
	Toby's backpack that had his address on the base on it.
	I think the Rangers found our campsite the next day and they called the base.
	And we just left all of our stuff there, everything we had.
	Okay, but now, maybe I missed it inadvertently or something, but you didn't bring your camera that you were planning to do photography with.
	You forgot it.
	I did.
	And that's the series of missteps that I spoke about.
	Right.
	Not only did I forget the camera, and we were three hours into the drive, and in my mind's eye, I could see this thing, and I knew it was sitting on my kitchen table.
	I forgot to pack the camp lantern my neighbor lent me, along with a gallon of fuel and a nice hatchet.
	And I left those things in the garage.
	I'd gone to the base exchange and I bought some infrared film and some full black and white film for making prints.
	And I left everything on the kitchen table.
	Right.
	So, okay, so when you got back to town, then you basically dropped him off sort of unceremoniously at his place, which is quite close to yours?
	Yes, we lived in Basehausen.
	It was a block and a half away.
	I dropped him off.
	And, I mean, it was...
	There wasn't hardly anything conversation-wise, other than we're getting close to home.
	And Toby slept almost the entire way.
	And he got out of the car, and I think our parting words were, see ya.
	And I remember he just walked up to the door with his flashlight in his hand.
	I backed out, and I went home.
	And I... Pulled in the driveway, I walked into my front door, and my wife says, oh, you're back!
	And then she's like, what happened to you?
	And I said the truth, I don't know.
	And I said, but I sure am thirsty.
	Do we have something to drink?
	And I sat down at the kitchen table, and she was kind.
	She helped me get my boots off.
	She said, man, you're really warm to the touch.
	I think you have a fever.
	And she took my fever, and it was close to 103.
	And she said, you know, you've got to go to the hospital.
	But before you do, let's get your fever down.
	And she ran some cool bathwater farming.
	And I had a bunch of insect lights, too, that were making me miserable.
	And that's when I discovered that the sunburn that I had was under my arms.
	It was on the soles of my feet.
	It was every square inch of my body.
	And I soaked in this tub for a while.
	And when my fever dropped a little bit, she helped me get dressed and we went to the emergency room.
	Now, we both worked in the emergency room.
	I mean, these people that took care of us, they're our friends.
	We know them.
	And it was common knowledge in the hospital.
	The hospital wasn't that big.
	The base wasn't that big at this time.
	We were going on this camping trip and the object of the exercise was I was going to take some photographs.
	So I remember my base commander, pardon me, not base, the hospital commander, popped in and said, you know, what did you boys get into or what happened to you boys?
	And I said, sir, I don't know, but I'll be back and ready for my shift, you know, Tuesday.
	And he says, don't worry about it.
	We got it covered.
	And he said, I want to see your prints as soon as you get them developed.
	And I thought, oh my god.
	How am I going to tell this guy I didn't take a single picture?
	And, you know, I wish I had taken the camera, but I don't know if it made any difference.
	I mean, I would love to have had a photograph of this thing.
	Right.
	But this is actually extremely crucial to To what follows in terms of the interrogation?
	It is.
	We were both hospitalized.
	We were separated and kept apart.
	I was given a private room, which is unheard of.
	Normally enlisted men, I'd be in an open ward unless I was critically ill.
	Actually, we were classified as critically ill.
	I had an IV in each arm running full tilt.
	And I was, it was the second night, the evening of the second night, and I knew I was going to go home in the morning.
	And my night nurse came in, and I knew her, and she had an injection in her hand, and I thought, that's my pain med, I hope.
	And behind her, she opened it, or behind her walked in two guys in suits.
	And, you know, I hate to stereotype people I mean, if you saw these guys, you would just think these guys are cops.
	And I mean, this was the 1970s.
	And this guy had this flat top haircut and this, you know, square chiseled jaw look.
	And he had a much younger captain with him.
	I don't remember the captain's name.
	And the major, the elder...
	The older of the two, I refer to as Special Agent Gregory.
	And the nurse comes to go around the side and this guy kind of cuts her off and says, if that's going to make him feel sedated, it's going to have to wait.
	And she was just shocked.
	And then he says, close the door on your way out.
	And she did.
	Because I was so sensitive to light, they kept the lights off in the room for me, thankfully.
	And the first thing these guys did, the older guy, flipped on these overhead lights, and I immediately felt like I had something in my eyes.
	And I said, sir, could you turn those off, please?
	It really hurts my eyes.
	And he said, well, I got to see what we're doing here, son.
	Can't work in the dark now, can we?
	And he swoops everything off my side tray table, and they're working in unison.
	And the captain's at the bottom of the bed, the foot of the bed.
	This wasn't an electric bed.
	It was crank in those days.
	And he cranks my bed up so that I'm in a seating position with this tray table across my lap.
	And he begins his interrogation.
	And I remember the first thing I asked him was, sir, am I in trouble?
	And he looks amused and he says, now son, would I be here if you weren't in trouble?
	And his sidekick, the captain, thought that was funny and laughed.
	And he said, well, the doctors want us to help them figure out what happened to you boys.
	And he said, you have certain rights.
	And he said, I'm going to read them to you.
	He took out some, you know, drugstore glasses and read me, you know, these rights under the UMCJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice.
	I, you know, it meant nothing to me.
	My eyes were almost swollen shut.
	I could barely see.
	And he's laying out forms in front of me.
	And he says, well, we want to know what you were doing down there.
	And so, sir, we went to take some photographs.
	And he says, and how many photographs did you take?
	And I said, well, none, sir.
	And I knew that question was coming, and I wasn't looking forward to it, because sure enough, he said, I don't believe you.
	And I thought, these guys...
	Then he says to me, he says, you know, you left your campsite, and you left everything there.
	You know what that means to me?
	That says to me that you guys planned on coming back.
	And I didn't catch the drift of the importance of that.
	And he says, you boys got a little marijuana plot thrown out there in the woods?
	Is that your deal?
	Set up camp and go back in the morning and do a little harvesting?
	And I was absolutely shaken to the core.
	All I could think of was, Well, my first thought was, did we burn down the forest?
	And then my next thought was, after that conversation, was, what if there were marijuana plants growing out there?
	I mean, maybe they would hang it on me, on Toby and I. And I know they'd already talked to Toby.
	Because they talked about Toby's map.
	They said, Toby drew a map.
	And I said, yes, Toby drew a map.
	That's how we were able to get out of there.
	And it's still in the glove box of my car.
	And they went and retrieved it.
	The captain got up and went and retrieved it.
	The Major stayed there and did like an interrogation.
	I'm sure it's an interrogation technique, but He would give me questions with a mixed yes or no answer.
	Like, he said, did you stay in the park?
	We were talking about the campground.
	And he said, well, did you stay in the park that night?
	And I thought he was referencing the campground.
	And I said, no, sir.
	And he went ballistic.
	And he says, where'd you stay in the Hilton?
	And in hindsight, I know, I think he set me up for that to establish who was in control here, and it was clearly him.
	And the captain brought back the map, and Toby had also got a map from a buddy he knew who used to fish, and plus he snagged one from the kiosk when we pulled into the park.
	So the They had these maps, and I laid them out, and he said, all right, I want you to explain these to me.
	And I told him, I said, sir, this is where we left the park, and then this is Toby's map.
	It's a joint adjacent to it, and this is the path that we took from this road.
	And he made a big deal out of it.
	So you've trespassed on the federal property then.
	And I thought, oh, my God.
	Is this about trespass?
	You know, I mean, I knew trespass was illegal, but I thought, you know, at worst, what, Park Ranger's going to kick us out?
	But he was just, he was trying to intimidate me, and he certainly succeeded.
	He intimidated me.
	Now, what I'd like to do here is, in the interest of time, kind of skip over some things, because they can read your book and get the blow-by-blow.
	But let's summarize what the interrogation was really trying to get at.
	Do you know?
	I know.
	Well, I believe I know.
	When he asked me several times, where's your camera?
	You know, and I told him, and the captain went and retrieved it.
	And sure enough, it was right on the kitchen counter where I told him it was in my film.
	And he said, well, you know, I, do you have another camera?
	I think, um, He said, how many pictures?
	Tell me.
	I want to know, son.
	How many pictures did you take in that park?
	And I said, sir, none.
	And that's what led into I left the camera at home.
	And as they're leaving, the captain left first.
	The nurse came in, gave me an injection.
	She left.
	The captain followed her.
	And this major bent down next to my ear.
	And said, son, you know, and I know that you two knuckleheads stumbled onto something out there.
	And I think you took a picture of it.
	And I just want your picture.
	That's all.
	And I said, sir, I don't have any pictures.
	And he said, I don't believe you.
	Then he smiled and turned my light up.
	And left.
	And just scared me to death.
	And again, that's why this is so well documented.
	I didn't know if I was going to be in a court-martial because I knew more was going on than a trespass.
	And then I figured out, you know, pretty quick, they think I took pictures of this thing.
	And I wouldn't admit to what I saw.
	You know, I said, we went to bed early.
	We woke up.
	We both felt really, really bad and decided we were sick, whipped it, and just drove back to base.
	Okay, that's an interesting sort of twist because you basically had been brought up to, in essence, deny what you saw.
	And you had had more than one sighting as a kid.
	And it is very interesting to me that these two guys interrogating you, you never admitted until, I guess it was much later, and I don't remember how much later, That you'd ever had this contact experience, that you were abducted in that forest that night.
	And I don't know whether Toby admitted that to them.
	I don't know if you know whether he admitted it to them in that first session or not.
	But this is very interesting because they knew exactly what had gone on with you, more or less.
	In my understanding, based on your physicality and the fact that doctors called them in the first place.
	So this must be something that they had, you know, as the military, they were prepared to see the signs.
	And so they seem prepared.
	They seem to know what it was.
	And yes, obviously they did not want someone to have a really good picture of, you know, of these beings who are coming in, abducting humans, etc.
	So at what point in the future did you finally break down and tell them, wasn't it, they gave you some kind of truth serum like months or was it a month later or a year later?
	When was that?
	Weeks later, maybe a month and a half, they called me into the OSI office.
	Actually, they sent a car for me.
	Let me just interject here.
	Another reason why I didn't admit to seeing a UFO was, honest to God, I thought they'd put me in a psych ward.
	Seriously, I really thought that I would be in a psych ward.
	Yeah, it's 1977.
	I understand.
	When they sent a car from the OSI office to pick me up, and I ran to the car down the hallway to the front door, and there they were waiting.
	I asked what the commander said, they're sending a car for you.
	I wouldn't keep them waiting, and I didn't.
	And I got in the car.
	We drove through this kind of quick.
	We got to the OSI office, went through the kind of security doors, you know, click, buzz, you know, click you through.
	And he was a senior airman.
	He was a cop.
	He walked me down this corridor and there were rooms on either side, alphabetically designated A, B, C, D. And I don't remember.
	I think we were in E, but I wouldn't swear to it, but I think that's where we were.
	And we went in.
	The airman opened the door for me and said, have a seat.
	Someone will be with you.
	And then the door shut and I knew the door was locked.
	And I looked around and it's a small room.
	There are three fiberglass chairs like they had in the 70s.
	And those molded fiberglass ones.
	An old style desk and a big padded chair.
	And there was a mirror on the left side about two foot square.
	And I thought, oh my God, who would be grooming themselves in an interrogation room?
	Well, nobody, you know.
	That's got to be a two-way affair.
	And I wanted to.
	I wanted to get up and go and cuff my hands around and look into it, but I didn't think that would be a good idea.
	And I waited.
	And there was an electric school clock right over the door, and I watched it.
	And I never saw another figure walk by the door.
	It was there, you know, it was 10 o'clock.
	I got there, it was after 9, it was 10, it was 11, it was close to noon.
	And then finally, after waiting all this time, the two agents walk in.
	Special Agent Gregory and his sidekick, Captain, I can't remember his name.
	And they walked in and they were kind of on a good mood.
	And they were laughing between each other, ignoring me totally, laughing between one another and talking.
	and we're talking about golf and um I was in the comfortable chair.
	Special Agent Gregory kicked me out of that.
	He took the comfortable chair.
	And he says, you know you're going to be hypnotized today, son.
	We're going to...
	And if we're lucky, if you're lucky, we might just get to the bottom of this and close your file today.
	Would you like that, son?
	Would you?
	And he's got this smirk on his face.
	And...
	The captain's setting up his little reel-to-reel tape recorder, and I said, sir, but why?
	You know, why do I have to be hypnotized?
	And he reached into a manila folder and pulled out a form and slammed it on the desk in front of me and pointed to my signature, and he says, that's all the why I need, sir.
	Is that not your signature?
	I said, yes, sir, it is.
	And he says, oh, you want to stop this?
	We can stop right now.
	We can just pack up our stuff and we'll just see you at the court-martial.
	And I was stunned.
	I mean, I was stunned beyond belief.
	And, you know, I'm 22 years old.
	I had no real life experience at that point.
	Certainly didn't have a legal education behind me.
	And I thought, you know, if I protest, it's going to make me look Guilty.
	So I said, okay.
	But guilty of what?
	Guilty of what?
	You had no idea what your offense, what the offense was.
	I had no idea.
	And that's why I thought I had better cooperate or God knows what I'm going to be.
	At this point, I've not been charged with a crime.
	And fortunately, I never was.
	But To the interrogation.
	He says, if we're lucky today, we can close your file.
	And a major came and tapped on the glass, and the captain let him in, and in walks this major without a name tag, gold oak leaves on his collar, and he's got this shading kit, like, leather pouch thing under his arm.
	And he walks in and he immediately recognizes the two agents and they recognize him and they start talking about fishing or something.
	One time they were talking about fishing, the next time it was about golf, and I don't remember which one was which, but they were all talking and carrying on a conversation, completely ignoring me.
	And then this major makes Agent Gregory forfeit the comfortable chair.
	And then sits in it and pulls it right up next to me, really into my personal space, and holds out his hand and says, how are you, Sergeant Lovelace?
	It's so nice to finally meet you.
	And I shook his hand, and I thought, my God, who is this guy?
	I mean, he carried himself more like a priest or a therapist or something, but not like a military officer.
	And he says, well, you know, we're going to find out today the truth about things.
	And he says, you know, we can maybe forego all this and just cut this process short.
	If you have some stuff you want to tell me, he says that you may have inadvertently left out of your report, you can tell me everything now and, you know, things will go well.
	But if you try to hide things from me, they won't go so well.
	And he says, do you have anything you want to talk about?
	And I said, no sir.
	I've told these two agents everything I know.
	And then he opened his shaving kit and he lays out this towel, a syringe with fluid in it, alcohol swabs, a rubber thing to tie a tourniquet with.
	And he's kind of humming the whole time.
	And he says, I understand you're from St.
	Louis.
	And I said, yeah.
	And he starts naming off some landmarks and We're engaged in really what was a pleasant conversation.
	And, you know, as I'm talking, he's smiling real broad and nodding.
	And I thought, after a minute or two, I thought, you know what, I'm just not that interesting.
	You know, I'm not sure where this is going, but I feel uncomfortable here, I thought to myself.
	And I think he could sense that I was suddenly uncomfortable.
	And he says, okay, well, let's move along here.
	And he said, he asked to see my arm, and I gave him my arm, and he's humming all the time.
	And he says, and I said, sir, why the medication?
	And he says, well, this is a two-step process.
	And then he said something really creepy.
	He says, you know, Sergeant Lovelace, for purposes of today's little exercise, would you call me Brad?
	That is my name.
	And I thought, okay.
	Yes, sir.
	And he says, don't you mean, yes, Brad?
	I said, yes, Brad.
	And he says, for purposes of today's little exercise, may I call you Terry?
	And I said, yes, Brad.
	And he said, Do you trust me?
	And I didn't trust this guy.
	But he asked the question.
	He said, do you trust me?
	And I said, yes, Brad, I trust you.
	And he said, that's good.
	That's very good that you trust me.
	And he said, this drug is going to just help you to relax and you can go through the hypnosis and it'll be much easier and we'll get much farther, much quicker.
	And he Rolled up my sleeve and took the alcohol swab and tied a tourniquet around it.
	Now, I had made the conscious decision, if these guys are going to hypnotize me, I'm going to do everything in my power to resist, at least resist surrendering my full mind to this guy.
	You know, I'd taken about a year and a half worth of psych courses on the base by this time.
	I knew a little bit about hypnotism, and I knew that you couldn't involuntarily hypnotize someone to tell you things.
	If that worked, we wouldn't need courts.
	We wouldn't need judges.
	It's just not that simple.
	So I was determined that I was going to resist the hypnosis every way that I could, but I recognized I had no control over the drug whatsoever.
	And he gave me the drug.
	And there was an instant flush of warm.
	And he said, you're going to feel relaxed.
	And I felt relaxed.
	And I'm kind of slumped in my chair.
	And then he went through this kind of progressive relaxation thing.
	And he says, you know, we're going to go down the stairwell.
	And he says, with each step that you take, you'll feel more relaxed.
	And this guy had a voice like a radio announcer.
	I mean, it was just smooth.
	It was easy to listen to, if that makes sense.
	And I take the first, you know, and he says, take that first step.
	And in my mind's eye, I pictured a stairwell going up.
	And as he's marching me down, in my mind's eye, I'm going up the stairwell.
	And I'm determined I'm going to passively resist this.
	And he walked me down, you know, Next step, feeling calm, feeling more relaxed.
	Now, taking the next step, feeling 10 times more relaxed.
	And I kept thinking, not relaxed, not relaxed.
	And I did things like, you know, I didn't want to appear like I was resisting, so I was tightening my muscles in my abdomen and, you know, the calves of my legs and just places where it wouldn't be noticeable.
	That I was trying not to relax.
	And when he went through his hypnotism spiel, he got me to the bottom of his stairway.
	And he says, Sergeant Lovelace, I'm going to have you.
	He said, Terry, I'm going to have you reach up and turn on that light so we can see.
	We're in the basement now.
	We need to see.
	He says, reach up now and turn on that light.
	And I waited and I wanted to see, did my arm move voluntarily?
	And my arm did not move.
	And I thought, okay, you know, I have some bit of control here.
	I knew I couldn't fight the drug, but some bit of control.
	And he asked again, only firmer, he says, Terry, I want you to reach up and turn on that light.
	So I very, very deliberately reached up with my arm and made a motion like pulling a chain.
	And Put my arm back in my lap and assume this relaxed posture.
	I was never totally hypnotized, I don't believe.
	But I was under the influence of this drug.
	And I knew that whenever we first got started.
	And this is what makes me...
	I know for sure that these guys knew this thing.
	He said, you saw three lights in the sky.
	Didn't you, Terry?
	Did you see that?
	And I said, yes, I saw that.
	He says, no, I want you to tell me what you see in your mind's eye like a movie.
	I don't want you to tell me what you think.
	I don't want your opinions.
	I want you to only tell me what you see.
	And I said, yes, Brad.
	And He said, you and Toby saw three lights on the horizon, but they weren't lights.
	They weren't stars at all, were they, Jerry?
	And I said, no, Brad.
	And he says, who were they?
	And I said, they were the space people.
	And I couldn't believe I was, did that come out of my mouth?
	Where did that come from?
	And I knew then that they had, through the drug, at least some control of me.
	And he took me back to the campground in my mind and a lot of these memories that had been suppressed because when we left the campground all I had was flashes of memory.
	I never had the seamless narrative of facts of what happened.
	Just flashes and bits and pieces and through this process that he put me through I recall a lot of stuff that actually I didn't know wasn't in my conscious mind until we went through this.
	And he said, you know, he said, well, I want you to tell me what you see.
	And he says, did they take you?
	And I said, yes.
	They took us both.
	And they took Toby first.
	And I'm going to relay some of the mental imagery that I had and it's just what I relayed to him and that was Toby and I were nude and I believe that we had our clothes folded in our hands but I'm not certain but that's the memory that I have and we were frozen and could not move except our eyes so my eyes are darting around and I'm trying to take in absolutely everything that I can see because
	I know that I'm in this craft.
	I knew it then, and I knew it especially whenever I'm in this hypnosis session.
	And I told Brad, I said, it's incredible that this thing is so big.
	And I don't think I put it in the book, but it's the truth.
	Inside the place, number one, it was brilliantly lit inside, and number two, the inside looked disproportionately bigger Than the outside.
	And I don't know if that's important or significant, but it was a major difference.
	That is very common in all these kinds of cases.
	That's said all the time, just so you know.
	And it's true.
	You know, it's...
	At any rate, they can, you know, the space that you're occupying is, well, space and time is distorted.
	So, okay, go ahead.
	So you, yes, it's much larger inside than outside, even though it's large outside.
	Yes.
	And my eyes are darting around, trying to take in everything I can, and I saw humans in there.
	There were human beings in there.
	There was a tall...
	There were the little gray guys around who were hurting us and had control of us.
	And there was a taller alien that was kind of an ashen color.
	I wouldn't call him quite gray, but he was almost a pasty, whitish.
	But he wasn't gray like the little guys were.
	And those little guys are not human.
	I don't think they're living beings.
	I think they're little robots of some kind.
	And one of the memories I had, this is one of my nightmares, actually, is that while I'm straining my eyes, this taller alien, six foot tall, catches my attention.
	I just noticed him.
	And I'm watching for a second or two, and he's carrying himself like someone in authority, if that makes sense.
	He seemed to be in charge of things.
	And I'm staring at him, and...
	As I'm staring at him, he turns his head, and we locked eyes.
	And in an instant, this guy was in my head.
	And I felt like...
	I've read indie accounts of people that have a total recall of their life flashed before their eyes in a second.
	And that's kind of the experience I had.
	And I knew he was in my head.
	And it was the biggest invasion of privacy I ever felt in my life.
	And behind those eyes, in the seconds that we were locked eyes, I can tell you, in back of those eyes, there was nothing of kindness or mercy or this thing was like pure intellect.
	And that's it.
	And he's He's one of the guys that haunts my sleep.
	Now, you saw groups of humans.
	Didn't you say there was...
	How many humans did you see that were like you?
	There were somewhere between 20 and 50.
	Now, I don't know because I didn't count them.
	But there was a group of people who were nude, like us, and they seemed to be frozen, like us.
	Because all I could see is their eyes were darting all over the place, and most of them were crying.
	And as I saw that, that's when I heard this woman screaming.
	And that was just too much.
	That was just...
	And at one point, I screamed out loud in the interrogation.
	It must have passed out for a moment.
	Because the next thing I knew, I heard the blood pressure cuff and I could feel it on my arm.
	He was checking my blood pressure.
	And he said, okay, Terry, let me tell you about the humans I saw.
	I saw maybe five.
	It could have been six.
	But I saw a group of humans.
	One of them was a woman who appeared to be Maybe Latino, very short, with their hair pulled back in a ponytail.
	And the other people looked like active duty military.
	They had a military haircut, and they wore uniforms that were tan, with a bright orange insignia on their shoulder.
	And then an orange stripe across her chest, which I guess must have been their name and the like.
	And so was the insignia an upside-down triangle, or do you know?
	I don't know.
	I know that all I saw was an orange, and I've tried my best to see that.
	I'd love to know what it said.
	But I just saw a circle.
	A disc, a round.
	Did you report now, what you're saying now, did you report that to the guy during the session, what you were seeing?
	Yes, I did.
	Okay, now at a certain point, you also saw these aquariums.
	I did.
	I did.
	And that's a common nightmare, and I'll explain that.
	When I told Brad that there were humans on board, and I didn't remember that.
	I didn't remember that until I saw that.
	And I was kind of surprised.
	I said, Brad, there are human beings here.
	And I remember that I couldn't get their attention.
	They wouldn't look at me or any of us.
	But they seemed to be crew members because they were going about their business.
	And the one guy that I saw was working on a panel on the side of the wall or something.
	They were definitely human.
	And that struck a nerve with Brad.
	And he said, okay, you're going to forget that now.
	You're going to forget that.
	And he went through it all again and said, we're going to take this away from you.
	All these ugly memories, they're gone right now.
	That memory is gone right now.
	So that touched a nerve.
	The aquariums.
	When we were being herded around by the little gray guys, We walked down a corridor and there were aquarium tanks to our right.
	And they were filled with a pinkish fluid.
	And they had what I thought at first were puppies.
	They looked like puppies.
	And they were suspended in this pink liquid.
	And they covered a whole panel of a whole side of the wall.
	I can't tell you how many, but there were a lot.
	And in my mind's eye, I saw one of these things twitch.
	And I screamed.
	And that was one of the times, again, when I screamed during the interview.
	Or pardon me, the interrogation.
	Because he made me look at them.
	I said, Brad, they're ugly things.
	I don't want to look at them.
	And he says, I want you to turn your head to the right and tell me what you see.
	And I did.
	Seeing that puppy thing twitch is a common nightmare.
	In your book you said they're human.
	I think they were human.
	In my book I say they look like puppies.
	First you say that, then you say you looked closer and they were some kind of weird shaped humans.
	Yeah, I mean Now I would guess them to be embryonic, but at 22 years of age, at that time, I had no idea what an embryo was or what an embryonic stage of development was.
	They looked like puppies.
	And that struck a nerve with Brad.
	Brad.
	And that's the end of that vignette and next I recalled a woman screaming and that was unnerving and then I had I was suddenly on a table and it was white porcelain and the lights in the room were so incredibly bright I could hardly open my eyes and There
	was a mantis type thing standing over me and they were doing something to my lower spine and I don't know what but I have degenerative spine disease on my lower back and it certainly wasn't from you know lifting a briefcase all these years and whatever they were doing hurt and I remember I was screaming and I We'd fill my lungs
	with air and scream as loud as I could, and I never heard a sound.
	And I didn't understand that, and that made me want to scream all the more.
	And this thing, this mantis-looking thing, turns its head, looks at me, and I hear him clearly in my mind.
	As clearly as any audible spoken word, I hear him in my head say, Why do you scream?
	You know we don't hurt you and you know we take you back.
	And that's when he tapped me on my head and then I was out from there.
	Then we were, I could tell that the interrogation was winding down.
	We went through the Description of the thing from the outside, from the inside, what we saw inside, and I could sense things were winding down.
	And one of the things that I should mention, because I think it's very important, was when they first put me under, when this, Brad, this hypnotist, first put me under, or thought he put me under, the captain, because I remembered his voice, I knew his voice, He said, kind of just above a whisper, is he out?
	And this guy Brad says, oh yeah, piece of cake.
	He was gone by the count of three.
	And I thought, you know, you jerk.
	You know, I'm not gone.
	I'm partially gone, but I'm still here.
	And then he said something that was crazy.
	He says, I'm amazed every time I see one of these.
	And I thought, Well, how many people do you hypnotize?
	I mean, do you hypnotize everybody that sees a UFO? That doesn't make sense to me.
	And to this day, those words are kind of, you know, I don't understand.
	Obviously, this was not the first time they'd done this.
	This was a drill.
	They, you know, we were going through...
	It was an exercise for them.
	Who knows?
	They may have done 10 a month.
	I have no idea.
	Right.
	Just an idle question.
	I'm just curious.
	Did you happen to have a fix on the people that you saw that were, I guess, frozen like you and I guess naked is what you said, I think?
	Yes.
	Did you have a sense that those people had come from the campground as well?
	Or did you just think they came from anywhere in the United States?
	Or did you have any sense of where, you know, just intuitively, did you sense that they were from the same area or a different area or not or unrelated or what?
	Well, my first thought was, I had no way of knowing, my first thought was they must have taken everybody in the park.
	I mean, that was, to me, seemed like a logical assumption.
	And then later on, I didn't hear anything about, you know, mass abduction.
	And that's one of the things that has haunted me for so many years, is what happened to those people.
	You know, I don't know.
	I read David Polite's book.
	You know, I'm missing 411, and, you know, maybe that's where people go.
	I'm just glad that I was able to get off.
	Yeah.
	Well, not necessarily maybe, but okay.
	So...
	Now, I mean, we've been going for a while and I know I told you, you know, you said you didn't want to go too long and I appreciate how much energy this takes.
	So I want people to read your book.
	We want, you know, there's a lot more to the story still.
	There's a couple little anecdotes that I think are quite fascinating, like the fact that And I'm trying to figure out when these things happen because I don't have the chronology quite in my mind.
	When you went into the store during Christmas and you came across some kind of alien toy or something like that that freaked you out completely.
	Maybe this happened more than once, but you did write about it in your book.
	Was that before 2012 and your discovery of the implant?
	Or was that after the...
	I mean, when was that?
	Let me explain.
	That was...
	Christmas time, my wife and I were shopping.
	It was 1987.
	The book on the end cap, I believe, was Whitley Strieber's book.
	But the book cover, jacket, had a picture of an alien on the cover.
	And that wigged me out.
	And I hyperventilated.
	I had to leave.
	But I should mention there's a couple of things that wigged me out.
	And that is, you know, if I was in the mall, and still to this day, if I walk past For some reason, if I walk past a display of naked mannequins, especially naked from the way up, raced up, it scares me.
	I have to turn away.
	All right.
	Fascinating.
	All right.
	So...
	Now, what happened was also that people should know that you were not supposed to talk to Toby.
	He went through the same experience, the same interrogation, one assumes.
	And then you were told never to speak to him, never to talk to him for any reason.
	And then at some point you said goodbye to him.
	You broke orders.
	You went against the orders, right?
	Yes.
	Yes, we were ordered to have no contact.
	We were coming home from the grocery store.
	My wife was driving.
	And I said, and my wife knew that we were under this order.
	And I said, stop by.
	You know, like I said, there was a change in us and a change in our relationship.
	This guy was my best friend.
	And now, and I had trouble reconciling those emotions.
	I really didn't want much to do with the guy.
	And that just made no sense to me, but that's what I felt.
	And I told my wife, I said, please stop by.
	I just want to run in and say goodbye.
	So she stopped the car in front of the house and I ran up to the door.
	It's a door I'd walked through a hundred times.
	It was open.
	I just walked in like I usually would.
	And I call her Tammy in the book.
	Toby's wife sees me, glares at me and says, you're not supposed to be here.
	And then that's when it hit me that she blames me, and I don't know who's to blame, but she blames me for her husband and everything that's going on with him.
	What I didn't know is that Toby, who I knew pretty well, I mean, we played cards together, we did a lot of things together, and he was a, you know, maybe drink a can of beer at a barbecue or something, two cans, tops.
	He was never a drinker.
	When I was in the house, Toby must have heard me, because he walked around the corner, and when he did, he was just a train wreck.
	I mean, he just looked...
	Number one, he was dirty, and that wasn't like him.
	He was disheveled-looking, unshaven, and barefoot.
	And he walked up to me, and it just felt awkward.
	And I felt like I wanted to hug the guy, and then I didn't.
	I'm looking down at my shoes, and he was a short guy.
	And I'm six foot, he was shorter, and he looks up and I made eye contact and his eyes were just bloodshot.
	And I told him, I said, because he said, did it happen?
	Did it really happen?
	And I said, yeah, Toby, it really happened.
	And you're not losing your mind.
	You know, I think that's, I felt the reason I wanted to let him know he's not losing his mind, that this did happen.
	Because I was going through the same kind of mental exercise.
	And I, we had an awkward handshake.
	And I never looked up in his face again.
	And I walked out and ran to the car.
	And then he passed on and he never recovered.
	Is that correct?
	What I got was my wife made contact with Tammy in 1980 and she had divorced Toby and she explained that he was He was discharged with medical discharge for drinking.
	And that just blew me away.
	And to find out that he and Tammy had divorced was just crazy because they were tight and they had two little kids and that was just sad to hear.
	And I had, the only contact information I had for Toby was I had his dad's phone number.
	And I called it.
	1980-something early.
	And I said, you know, where's Toby?
	And he said, I don't know.
	He comes by now and then.
	And he knew who I was.
	And I said, well, would you please, I'll give you my phone number.
	Would you please have him call me?
	And he took down the number and said, yes, I sure will.
	And I never heard anything back from him.
	And it's a shame, because had Toby and I been able to reconnect, I think we could have put our heads together and known so much more.
	But I feel like this was engineered.
	I know that sounds crazy, but I feel like my initial abrupt dislike for the guy, I don't know where that emotion came from.
	But it certainly wasn't me.
	And like I say, it's just a real shame that we couldn't have put our heads together.
	Okay, but didn't he die?
	Did he die?
	He did die.
	And do you know when?
	There's a conflict in that story in that when I was in American Samoa, I had a friend who was an FBI agent there.
	And I said, this is a buddy of mine I've been trying to track down.
	Can you help me out?
	And I gave him all the information that I had.
	And he said, yeah, let me make a couple phone calls and see what I can do.
	So he came back a couple weeks later and said, you're too late.
	Your buddy passed away just a couple years after discharge from the military.
	And I'm like, oh, no.
	But that wasn't true.
	That wasn't true at all.
	Because I went through and I found his obit.
	And I'm certain this is him.
	And he didn't die until 2014.
	Oh my god.
	So I had the obit and I'd be glad to send it to you.
	Of course I asked not to be published.
	Well, I mean, that's very significant though.
	Even at that time they didn't want you guys to get together.
	You know, at any point.
	And they lied to you.
	They did.
	And this was a friend of mine.
	I mean, I never in a million years thought this guy would have lied to me.
	I just, I could not believe it.
	And then I thought, well, yeah, you know, who's he worked for?
	Right.
	Because he asked me, he says, why do you need this?
	Why do you need to get a hold of this guy so bad?
	And I... I said, you know, we saw some crazy stuff when we were in the Air Force, and my memory's not real clear, and I'd like to just catch up with him so we can compare notes.
	And he says, oh, I see.
	Yeah, that's reasonable.
	That's cool.
	Yeah, let me see what I can do.
	And we didn't do much.
	And that was in the 1980s, right?
	So in the 1980s is when I talked to the dad.
	Mm-hmm.
	But you said you were in Samoa when?
	I was in American Samoa, and the year would have been 2007.
	And in 2007, I asked the FBI agent, help me find my buddy.
	Comes back two weeks later and says, I'm sorry, he's passed away.
	And that he could have even...
	It's interesting because technically what he was actually saying is that your buddy passed away right after he was discharged from the military.
	He was discharged from the military.
	Wasn't he already discharged by the time you went to say goodbye to him?
	No, he wasn't discharged at all.
	He was PCS. He was being transferred to Japan.
	Oh.
	So that's why they were packing.
	And the FBI agent told me in 2007 that Toby had died a couple years after getting out of the military and he says, your friend's gone.
	And I didn't give it much thought until I went and when I wrote this book, I checked and I found what I think is his obit.
	Now, what about his wife?
	Would you, at this time, be able to track her down?
	We tried.
	My wife tried.
	She married an over-the-road truck driver, and they came and visited us once when we were in St.
	Louis, and that's when we found out how bad things were for Toby.
	But, no...
	Not someone who, because you would think that she would have been party to his memories, but who knows?
	Well, you know, she and my wife were friends, and they talked about how sick we were and how bad Toby was, and I still think there was resentment there against me.
	Yeah, you know, I totally understand that.
	Yeah.
	Now, what I want to do here is, you know, there was the last part, because we can't let you go without going back to the woman who you wrote the book, or you were in the process.
	I don't know if you wrote the book by the time she came to you in 2017.
	I thought, did you publish the book in this year?
	Yeah, March 2018.
	I published the book.
	Okay, and here we are in December of 2018.
	So you've been on the radio, you know, the talk show circuit, so to speak, on other shows and whatnot.
	And this woman came to you in 2017.
	Is that correct?
	That's correct.
	And you recognized her from when you were a little kid.
	Isn't that correct?
	That is absolutely correct.
	And so she was in your living room.
	You described it at the very beginning for us.
	She had a weird wig on and whatnot, but she could read your mind.
	And she told you not to publish your book because it would contain things that they didn't want out there.
	Is that correct?
	That's correct.
	She told me two things.
	She told me that and her exact words were, what's in your leg should not fall into the hands of terrestrial scientists.
	Or analysis.
	And if you try to get that done, or if you get that done, my host won't let that happen.
	And that's what she called the aliens, were her hosts.
	And you believe she was an alien-human hybrid?
	I do.
	I do.
	Okay.
	And then, also, you didn't say this, but somewhere along the line, Can you tell us what year that was?
	When exactly?
	When did this thing disappear from your leg or appear to disappear?
	Yes, that's easy.
	That's what we're leading up to here.
	In October 2017, about the third week, that's when I woke up and found this, my living room, found this woman sitting across from me.
	And then she's gone.
	I wake up.
	I stumbled into the...
	Into another room and grabbed a pen and paper and tried to record as much as what I could remember.
	And I went to bed.
	And it stuck in my mind.
	She told me, she said, my host will come and retrieve their property.
	And that's when she told me, she says, you have devices in both of your legs.
	And I didn't know that.
	I'd only had my right leg x-rayed.
	And I asked her, I said, how many people have you done this to?
	And she said, many thousands over three generations now.
	And that just blew me away.
	So third week in October, she tells me, you know, there are things in your book that shouldn't be disclosed.
	And then November 17th, I wake up and I feel like somebody hit me with a baseball bat on the top of both of my legs.
	And I have this odd injury that's a...
	It looks...
	When you see it in a picture, it looks like a pimple.
	A little lesion of some kind.
	But if you looked at it really close, it's almost a perfect little box rectangle of a wound.
	It's a strange looking wound.
	And my legs were so sore.
	And the swelling...
	They were swollen.
	And the bruising didn't come out fully until...
	A couple days later.
	And when I woke up in pain, I told my wife, I said, they came and they took this thing out of my leg.
	And I got dressed.
	It's a Saturday.
	I go out and I said, I'm going to find somebody to give me an x-ray.
	And you know, that's hard to do.
	You know, find somebody to give you an x-ray on demand.
	And I had copies of the x-rays in my hand on eight and a half by 11 pieces of paper.
	I had copies of my I went to a chiropractic office, and I waited to see the chiropractor.
	He eventually came out to see me, and I told him the truth.
	I said, I know this is going to sound crazy, but I had these implants put in my leg, and I think the aliens came last night and took them back, and I needed an x-ray to find out if they're stuck.
	I'm scoffing and he's holding my elbow and he's walking me towards the door and I hold this piece of paper up in front of his face and he stops.
	And then he looks at the second x-ray and he says, come into my office.
	I want you to tell me about these.
	And we went into his office and it was crazy because his phone was ringing and people were knocking on his door.
	I didn't have an appointment.
	And I told him the truth.
	I told him a condensed version.
	And I said, this is why I think they came last night and took these things out of my leg.
	Legs.
	And he wrote me a script for an x-ray at a standalone x-ray radiology facility and said, no charge.
	And he said, the only thing I ask is that you let me see the x-rays and you give me a copy of your book and don't mention my name in the book.
	And I surely didn't, or the name of this practice.
	So I went and I had the x-ray, and I came home first, and I popped it up on the window and I looked at it, and the thing that looked like a computer chip is gone.
	It's gone all the way.
	And I thought, well, you know, they did.
	And I took them and I dropped them off at the chiropractor's office, and then later that afternoon, After dinner, he calls me and says, well, did you look at your x-rays?
	And I said, yeah, I don't see much.
	I don't know what I'm looking for.
	I don't see anything.
	It looks like they took the thing out of me.
	And he told me where to look.
	He said, go to your, you see your femur there.
	Go and look to the right and get a magnifying glass if you need to, but you're going to see two vertical lines, white lines.
	And I got a magnifying glass so I could see them clearly because my vision's not that great.
	And plainly, on the x-ray, you can see.
	I put a copy of them in the book, and you can see, but you can't see them real clearly, but you can see there's two little things there.
	And, you know, I said, I guess they were that inept.
	Why would these guys, if they're so smart, why would they leave this thing in my leg?
	And it wasn't until later someone I told me.
	Nanotechnology.
	And those two wires are still there, and the things below my leg are still there, below my knee are still there.
	Right.
	Now, so you're on the circuit, you're talking about all this.
	You were also told by that woman that your government was going to kill you.
	Can you explain that?
	I almost didn't put that in the book because it sounds too dramatic.
	And I don't want to be dramatic.
	I'm not trying to be dramatic.
	Well, in order to save your own life, let's be dramatic.
	So let's explain.
	What did she say and why did she say that?
	She emphasized that these things in my leg couldn't fall in the hands of terrestrial scientists.
	And she said, you know things that you shouldn't know.
	And you don't know.
	You can't discern.
	You can't discern what's important and what's not.
	And I had some images in my mind, vignettes of things that she projected in my direction.
	And the last thing she said was, you know, if you publish these things, your government will kill you.
	And I thought, God, that can't be.
	There are thousands of people who publish books.
	And then I thought, you know, I don't know.
	I don't know what's important.
	I don't know what's not.
	You know, I've not been a part of the UFO community at all, not until 2016 when I decided to get into this thing and write this book.
	So I thought, you know, well, I think my best bet is to be as visible as possible, number one, for my own safety, and number two, people need to know this stuff is real.
	You know, I really think it's important that they know this stuff exists, our government knows about it, and How many people have this happened to that think they're losing their mind?
	Well, maybe they're not losing their mind.
	Maybe that bad dream wasn't a bad dream.
	Right.
	Absolutely.
	Well, you know, Terry Loveless, I have to say, you know, you're an American hero for coming forward in this way.
	And you're a very brave man for sticking through this thing all these years.
	You've also had, you know, we've focused on certain experiences, but you've had other experiences as well.
	And, you know, it is true.
	You know, you could be like a cross-section and how many people...
	Are abducted every year.
	We have no idea.
	And how many are having memories, pieces of memories.
	I mean, I've been abducted.
	I know that.
	I've got implants.
	I know that.
	And all of this is, you know, I have a sister who doesn't really want to associate with me.
	She doesn't know why.
	Who loves me very much, but she's afraid of me because we were abducted together.
	My sister, 76, when I published this book, we talked about it for the first time in our life.
	Right.
	And she said, yeah, they took me when I was a little girl.
	Right.
	But she doesn't remember any experiences other than that.
	Right.
	So this is very crucial.
	I mean, humans are being used and abused as guinea pigs and worse.
	And if somebody, if people don't start speaking out, you know, God knows what's going to happen to humanity on the planet, really.
	It's a very dangerous game.
	And there's a part of the military that wants you to speak out, which is why you're here right now.
	And thank God for that.
	So, you know, I don't think they're going to kill you.
	That was a very interesting statement of that woman.
	But I can say that she probably was trying to scare you silent.
	You know, that if her warnings didn't help, then she was, you know, that was her last card that she could play.
	Yeah, that could be.
	That could be.
	I mean, there may be some motivation to try to shut you up.
	Now, you may have, I mean, I'm just going to say this.
	You may have some memories of things that you haven't talked about, that you know things that you could still uncover more memories.
	And I do wonder whether or not you have been what they say, you know, basically...
	I've regressed to this point, but I guess, I'm assuming, now maybe you want to share with us, have you tried to be regressed since, like by friendly, I guess friendly people?
	I had not, and I thought about it a lot.
	I spoke with Yvonne Smith, a woman from L.A. who's well known for hypnotic regression of abductees.
	And she said, well, when you're ready, Here's the information I need from you and we'll set something up.
	Part of me is scared to death.
	I'm afraid of what I'm going to see.
	Right.
	I really am afraid of what I'm going to see.
	But on the other hand, I know that coming forward and telling this story gave me some peace of mind.
	That's great.
	Maybe getting the full story is what I need to do.
	And I'm going to talk to Yvonne about that again.
	And maybe we can set something up.
	I'll go out to California and get it done.
	Well, the fact that they still want to shut you up is important information to have.
	Because that basically says that there's something to your story.
	Beyond even what you know and what you've said so far, possibly.
	But the ingredients are there.
	The ingredients are there.
	And if people pay attention, there's plenty there.
	And it should send a real warning signal around the world to all humans of what is really going on.
	And that, you know, portions of the military are in on it.
	And you're not, you know, you're not the only one.
	And the abductions take a, there are a lot of repetitive things that go on during these abductions that everyone says, just like I was saying, they all say, you go in the craft, it's bigger on the inside than on the outside.
	That's always in the testimonies.
	And your drawing is quite accurate.
	The fact that you're a lawyer and you're methodical, you probably have a really good memory.
	The fact that you had mind control at the age of 22 to be able to control your own mind enough to, you know, keep it clear and not forget everything they wanted you to forget.
	Very, very, you know, that's brilliant.
	You know, I was angry and I felt like these images...
	Belong to me.
	And I'm not going to let them take them from me.
	Now, in hindsight, I wonder if maybe I'd had more peace over my life had I let him just remove those memories.
	Right.
	I don't think so.
	I don't think so at all.
	I think I would be lost today in neurosis.
	Right.
	Because I wouldn't know.
	Yeah.
	No, you have done what they call integrated neurosis.
	To a degree, you know, and obviously we're not going to know for sure exactly to what degree, but clearly, you know, as people can read your testimony and watch you here on screen right now, they can see they've got an intelligent guy who's had some really bizarre experiences and you've integrated it and you've done the investigation necessary to awaken yourself.
	As to all the different aspects of it.
	I'm sure the story isn't over though.
	I got to tell you, you know, you're right on the verge and we are right on the verge of a lot of disclosures going on right now.
	So...
	I don't know what's going to happen in your travels, but I hope you'll stay in touch with us, and I hope that you will stay in touch with the public.
	And I do believe the more public you are, the safer you are.
	Absolutely.
	That was my thought.
	If I stay, the more public I am, the safer I am.
	Yeah.
	You know, not only is it about my safety, it's not only about my safety.
	I want people to know this.
	I think it's very, very important.
	And I have this sense of dread, and I don't know where it comes from.
	But I feel that this is just crucial to get this story out.
	Right.
	Fair enough.
	Well, I'm not going to keep you any longer.
	I'm going to say good night and thank you so much.
	I'm sure there are a million questions that the people in the chat might have.
	You know, I have to say they're very supportive of you.
	We do have a chat room that goes along with the show.
	What we can do is if you have an email or you have a way people can reach you, please do tell us.
	And again, I've linked to your book on my website.
	I hope that people can find you on Amazon, the name of the book.
	Let's talk about the name of the book and give some details on how to reach you.
	The name of the book is Incident at Devil's Den and it's only on Amazon.
	It's in paperback and I need an audio and I did it myself.
	I recorded it in my own voice for better or worse.
	And it's on a Kindle version as well, but it's only on Amazon, Incident at Devil's Den.
	And if you'd like to contact me, I left an email in the epilogue of my book.
	And my book's been out, what, nine-something months?
	And to date, I've received over 400 emails.
	And I have answered every single one of them.
	And if anyone wants to contact me, I will answer your email as candidly and honestly as I can.
	And the address is Lovelace Excellent.
	Thank you so much for being on the show.
	It's really a pleasure.
	Hang in there and let's hear from you in the future.
	Sure enough.
	Thank you so much.
	Good night.
	Bye-bye.
	So that's a fascinating testimony, and that's a very exciting, really, you know, detailed look at one man's experiences with being abducted with a friend.
	And there are lots of these stories out there, but this guy is, you know, he did take notes.
	He did keep a diary.
	All those years ago, this is important.
	So there's a number of things that people can do when they're involved with all of this.
	Obviously, it's happening to...
	I mean, John Lear thinks it's happening to everyone.
	Whether or not that's completely true or whether it varies, you know, the various aliens coming after you doing this and that.
	And what is really going on here on planet Earth?
	Who is prey?
	Who is food?
	Who's a food source for them?
	You know, and why they make a distinction between one human and another.
	And the story goes on and the questions are simply really never ending.
	There's so many questions about what's really going on here on planet Earth.
	So we have to keep an open mind And listen to these people and their testimonies.
	So thanks for watching.
	And I'll be back tomorrow at 1 p.m.
	in the afternoon.
	I'm interviewing Robin Falcov.
	She is a healer, a health professional, alternative health professional.
	And she has got her own show.
	So we're going to just catch up with her and see what she's investigating lately.
	So thanks again for being here tonight.
	Take care.

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