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Jan. 22, 2016 - Project Camelot
01:59:09
DR. KEN JOHNSTON - STRUCTURES ON MOON
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Time Text
Thank you.
Thank you.
And Ken, welcome.
It's really great to have you on the show.
And I hope that this will be a little bit different of an interview than the one you are used to, because I've actually heard several of your interviews, and they're all great.
But I'm hoping to cover a little bit different ground if we can manage it.
At the same time, I want to hear your usual story, which is fascinating anyway.
So...
Kind of with that introduction, at the moment I'm going to just give people the overview of your sort of CV as it is that you sent me and then we can get right into it, okay?
I'm glad to be here and I'm standing by.
Okay, great.
So Dr.
R. Ken Johnston Sr.
is one of four civilian astronaut consultant pilots from the Apollo Moon program and is a retired aerospace engineer, U.S. Marine, and NASA whistleblower.
He refused to strictly follow orders and destroy a nearly complete collection of 8x10 glossy photo prints from the Apollo program, photos that are not available from NASA at this time and are of higher resolution than what is found online.
Johnston was born at Fort Sam Houston U.S. Army Air Base In San Antonio, Texas in 1942 and studied at Oklahoma City University.
He enlisted in the U.S. Marines in August of 1962 and reported to Pensacola as a Marine officer cadet for flight training in September of 1964.
He left active duty from the Marines in August of 1966.
He was hired by Grumman Aircraft Corp. because of his training as a pilot with an avionics background to become a principal contractor for the Apollo Lunar Module Testing.
His duty was to assist with cockpit and instrument development and astronaut training at the Man Space Center.
And it was eventually renamed JSC in Houston, Texas, as a civilian astronaut consultant pilot.
He worked as a contractor from 1966 to '72 during the Apollo program.
He was employed by Brown and Root, Northrop, principal contractors to NASA for management of the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, where all moon rocks were stored, curated, catalogued, and in some cases distributed to scientists who had successfully applied to carry out analysis in their own labs.
And an important part of Johnson's duties was to provide photographic and preliminary analysis of lunar samples.
to contributing scientists from around the world.
I'm going to stop there because it goes on for quite a while and let you sort of pick up the ball here and augment that introduction with some words of your own about kind of to focus the mind and also to cover maybe why it is that NASA is now trying to hide the records of your service.
Well, let's go back to finishing up the Apollo program.
After we landed on the moon, actually, Grumman, that built the lunar module, laid off almost 30,000 employees across the whole United States.
And I was fortunate enough.
Grumman was very nice to most all of us.
We got two weeks of severance pay, plus we got two weeks of searching to find another job while we were being paid.
And I was able to go to work over at the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, and I caught Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, and Mike Collins in quarantine.
You know, those days, the first two missions, we quarantined the astronauts for two weeks to be sure that they weren't bringing back any pathogens or anything else from the moon that might contaminate the Earth.
In that capacity, I became the Director of the Data and Photo Control Department at the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, which gave me direct contact.
Plus, in fact, you had to have a secret clearance and a top-secret clearance to get into the photo lab, into the back inner sanctums.
Where all of the originals and things were kept.
Because we had contributing scientists from all over the world that were going to be working with the lunar samples, they wanted to have pictures from orbit to showing the terrain where we landed so they could get a rough idea of what they thought the geology would be.
They wanted to have pictures from the lunar surface showing the orientation of the rock so they could determine the effects of solar radiation that might...
So I maintained a set of five copies of every...
And it also had access to the 16mm sequence cameras that were in the flight deck of the lunar module.
All of them that were taken with the Hasselblad cameras on.
Apollo 11 was only Neil Armstrong.
He's the only one that had a camera.
So people think that they...
The astronaut coming down the ladder, it was Buzz.
That was Buzz Aldrin coming down.
And that first footprint that you see on the lunar surface, that's actually Buzz Aldrin.
But it's just the way things worked out that Neil had the camera.
And after that, Apollo 12, both the lunar module...
Pilot each had a camera, a big Hasselblad strapped to the front of their spacesuits.
So after we finished up with all of the Apollo flights, I shifted over.
I was going to be working on what we call the Apollo telescope mount, and that would have been using one of the other three lunar modules because we were contracted to build the 20 up through Apollo 20, but we only flew up through Apollo 17.
Spacecrafts 18, 19, and 20 never flew.
We were going to use the ascent stage of one of those three remaining lunar modules and put a large telescope on the bottom of it, like Hubble turned out to be, fly it up to our first space station called Skylab, and then we could just back away from the Skylab and rotate around and take pictures of anything in the universe we wanted to.
That got canceled, and as such, I got laid off from that one, too.
Um...
I went into business for myself for a couple of years, and then NASA was looking for some more astronauts to work on Skylab and the shuttle program.
So I had letters of recommendation from Neil Armstrong and Jack Schweiker, Jim Irwin, and just about anyone I wanted there, recommending me to become one of the regular astronauts instead of a civilian astronaut consultant pilot.
So I went back to work at the Johnson Space Center and applied, was doing good, and I got called into astronaut Vance Brand's office to hear the results, because there's the next week, who the next group of 26 astronauts would be.
Vance said, sit down, Ken.
He said, I don't know how to tell you this.
He says, but...
The government's gotten involved in the selection of astronauts, and they don't want to have jet jobs.
They want to have PhD scientists.
And at the time, I only had three bachelor's degrees.
And he says, well, your name has been strict.
I'd gone through the training with the guys.
I'd helped train them to fly the lunar module.
And I hear, with their recommendations, I'm being cut because of the way the government wanted to play the game.
A few years later...
About 10 years, actually, I had my first doctorate degree, and that was in metaphysics.
And I applied for it again and got down to there.
I was called in.
They said I was too old.
So, you know, even though I have ancestors that have lived over 100 years, I think they made a mistake.
But now there's good reasons, perhaps, why I wasn't in on the inside anymore.
And as the director of the data and photo control department, When I would use those five sets to give out pictures of the lunar samples to the contributing scientists, I would also myself.
And at one point, down near, I believe it was Apollo 15, after Apollo 15, I got a directive that said for me to destroy all but one set.
And I completely...
I complained to my lead with BRN, and I said, we paid for these with our tax money, and there are universities that would love to have their own copies of this for their science departments.
And he says, no, you're told to just get rid of them.
You can keep one set, but get rid of them.
And I complained a little more.
He said, I don't care what you do.
Just dump them in the dumpster.
So I took that as sort of a tacit approval to keep my set.
And I took another completed set, which I later donated to Oklahoma City University's Science Department.
But the other three I dumped in the Dempsey Dumpster.
And as fate would have it, I've come across an individual who says that they found a lot of the pictures in the dumpster.
So we're kind of bouncing off of each other how these pictures have wound up.
The advantage that some people that look for anomalies or really want to see what was seen on the surface By having the pictures that I have, which were made off of the original first-generation, the difference is so great about what you're looking at compared to what you get now if you order a picture.
Most of the people use copy machines, and if you make a copy of a copy, pretty soon you don't have any of the details, but in the archive and the collection that I have, there's a lot of details there.
Okay.
Now, in your situation, I've got...
Actually, I'm going to put this on the screen here.
And maybe you can tell us a little bit about this letter here.
This is, I guess, some kind of a letter basically verifying that you did work for NASA. And I'm going to put that on there.
So people could see that this was sent to me by one of your assistants, I guess.
And...
Are you able to see that letter there?
I see it very clearly.
In fact, that letter was written by Dr.
Jeffrey Warner, who actually got his first doctorate degree in geology from MIT when he was only 14 years old.
And Dr.
Jeffrey Warner originally started the Data and Photo Control Department at the Lunar Receiving Laboratory.
But in order for him to run the processing lines, processing the lunar samples and getting them cut into thin sections and things that scientists wanted, he couldn't keep up with things.
He needed help.
So they asked me if I would be willing to take over for him, and I was more than happy to do so.
This letter of accommodation from Dr.
Warner said, It's terrific.
And I'm awfully glad that I became a bit of a pack rat and kept all of these letters.
Because right there in the last paragraph, it talks about the director of the photo lab, and that's John Holland and John Brinkman.
And those people are very important because they put together the photo labs for NASA back at the very beginning of the very first Mercury flights in orbit.
So that little piece of paper bears a lot of weight, and by golly, I guess Ken really was there.
Exactly.
Well, that's wonderful.
And I am glad you were a pack rat, as you call it.
Now, what I'd like to do is I'd like you to talk about actually what you went through when you saw the structures on the moon.
And so if you can go ahead and share that story, that would be great.
Okay.
While I was at the Lunar Receiving Laboratory and working with the head geologist, Dr.
Thornton Page was in charge of the Lunar and Planetary Science Department just outside of the main campus.
Of the Johnson Space Center there.
He contacted me one afternoon and said, Ken, would you go to the photo lab and check out the 16 millimeter film from the command module of Apollo 14 and set up a showing for us.
He said for myself and several of the other geologists.
So I did as he asked.
I set up a projector.
And one of the reasons he picked me is my military background.
He knew that I knew how to operate what's called a gun sequence camera.
And people out there who've maybe seen newsreels and they show an airplane, you know, chasing another one and they're firing their guns and you're seeing all these tracers and things going on.
It's a gun sequence camera that is filming that and that allows the people to take a look at the pictures later and see if everything, you know.
If they needed to change anything.
So I checked out that specific reel, went over to the building next to Mission Control in there and set it up.
And Dr.
Page was there and he had six other of the scientists with him.
I set up the projector and we were watching these pictures.
They're about 15 minutes is about all the reel took.
and on the backside of the moon, the moon was at about what you'd call...
Hello?
So in this one of the craters, we identify as Chiyakovsky.
Again, I'm sorry to interrupt you there.
This is kind of things that go on with Camelot.
I know you can do 20 other interviews and have no problems whatsoever.
You've told this story many times.
I know you have.
But could you just start back where you said the moon was at a certain kind of angle or whatever it was that you were about to say?
Because we did briefly go off the air right then, strangely enough.
So go ahead.
Now, the moon was in what you'd call a half-moon phase, and on the back side of the moon, the same thing is on the front.
Only half was illuminated by the sun.
So as the Apollo 14 spacecraft was coming around and filming from the command module, the service module actually is where the...
We're approaching this crater.
It's about 20, 24 kilometers across.
We labeled it as Tsiolkovsky.
The Russians labeled almost most all of the medium-sized and larger craters on the backside of the moon because they got in orbit around the moon before we did with our cameras.
At any rate, we're approaching this crater, and with half of it in shadow, because of the sun angle, we get close enough.
And in the dark, shadowed part, there's...
There were like five domes.
If you take your hand and turn your palm up and bring all your fingers together and look at the top of them, it looks like little domes all the way around, five of them.
And they're somewhat opaque, being illuminated from the inside.
And one of them had a steam column coming up from it.
Dr.
Page had me freeze the camera.
And he had me zoom in, zoom out, back up, come one frame at a time or four frames at a time, which you can do with a gun sequence camera projector.
That way you can analyze.
And he had me stop and he turned to the other guys and says, well, boys, what do you think of that?
And they all started laughing.
It was kind of an inside joke.
Well, Dr.
Page asked me to finish showing that reel and then check it back into the photo department.
And I was trying to listen to what they were saying, but I was too busy trying to close things up.
I went back to the photo lab and was checking it in.
And the way it was set up at the photo lab, you have visitors can come to the outside and they can request specific information.
If it's available to them, they can get a copy.
If you go into the middle room, this is where a lot of the processing takes place, and then you have the storage far back, and you have to have a top-secret clearance to get into there.
Well, as I went into the middle room, there was a light table about three foot by four foot, and there were three people there.
They were leaning over...
Large negatives, and they were painting out stuff, and I asked them what they were doing.
One of the guys says, well, we're professional strippers.
The lady kind of took offense at that, I guess, and she said, well, actually, what we're doing is we're painting out the stars and things on the horizon that might be confusing to people.
And, you know, that kind of sat wrong with me.
But I went ahead and checked in the film and was headed back over to the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, and I ran into Dr.
Page outside walking, and I asked, I said, Dr.
Page, oh, no, excuse me, let me back up here just a little bit.
The next day, I was to take out that same roll of film and show it to, in the main auditorium at the Johnson Space Center, to the rank-and-file scientists, engineers, and janitors, and everybody that wanted to watch it during...
Can I stop you right there?
Excuse me, but you said that you're going to take it over to show it in this other venue, right?
Another auditorium the next day, yeah?
That's correct.
Okay, but the question I have for you right here is, did you not think or were you not told that this film was only going to be viewable by people with above top secret or secret clearances?
In other words, do those people all have secret clearances and were you aware of that?
I was not aware of that.
In fact, I was extremely excited about the fact that the next day I was going to be showing the same film to everyone and they're going to see that we discovered a base on the backside of the moon.
I was very excited.
In fact, my brother, Dr.
Dr. A.R. Johnston, who helped design the vacuum chambers, the big vacuum chambers, and the lunar sample processing lab, he was with me in the control booth when I was showing the film to the rank and file.
And when we came up on Tsiolkovsky, in the black area, the dark shadowed area, there was nothing there.
So I actually stopped the camera.
I stopped the I stopped the projector and told the people I'm having technical difficulties and took a few minutes.
I took the film out.
I checked.
There was no cut, no splice that I could determine.
So I put it back in and I finished showing it.
it.
The people were all excited because they saw some great pictures of the backside of the moon and what the, you know, craters on the, actually on the back.
Ran into Dr. Pat.
Page and I asked him what happened to those domes and things we saw on the backside of the moon.
His comment was, and the people who knew who Dr.
Page was, he actually wore a Across one eye and a patch.
So he only had one eye, good eye, and he looked at me with that one good eye and he winked.
And he said there was never anything there.
And even with one eye, you can tell when they're winking at you.
But no, I had no knowledge that anything was going to be there.
But within 24 hours, they had to have taken that film, made a copy, Enlarged, did the paint out that they needed to paint out, put back, and duplicate the copy so that the one that I showed the next day did not have the base, as I call it, on the backside.
That is such an extraordinary story.
And I know that you have other sort of compatriots in NASA and outside of NASA. So, first of all, let's go to the scientists that were in the room that saw the authentic, you know, the ones which did show the base.
Are you in touch with or have you ever been in touch with any of those people individually at all?
None at all.
And you have to remember how many years ago that was.
I was fortunate to be one of the youngest consultant test pilots that they had at 26 years old.
And I hate to say it, but the majority of them have checked out.
That's why every time I get a chance, I tell people that were there, and I didn't even say those to the geologists that were there, come forward with the information now before you're gone, and it's lost, and it's a little more difficult for us to prove that.
Right.
What you thought you heard isn't the truth, all of the truth.
So you were the only one, I assume, showing the film, is that right, with that scientist who was directing you, and what was his name again?
Dr.
Thornton Page.
Is he alive still or no?
Oh, no.
He's passed away.
Okay.
Did you ever try to contact him again?
No.
The interesting thing, you have to understand, we were at such a high pace, getting to the moon, one mission, followed by another mission, and we would see anomalies or hear things that we wanted to check out, but unfortunately...
We were being moved, and like I told you, you finish one contract for your company, which is about two or three years, and then you get either laid off and you have to go to another company and do another project.
So you lose track of your contacts, and ultimately, interesting enough, is that the high-tech people, the engineers, the designers that built the Apollo program and built the spacecraft and designed the spacesuits and trained the astronauts...
Most of those people left, and they went into private industry.
And, you know, the Peter Principle, you know, you get promoted because people above you have moved out until you reach a point to where you're totally incompetent.
And I'm going to get slammed for saying that, but I have met people there that are shocked.
And whenever, let's see, President Bush, the first Bush, said we're going to go back to the moon.
They went out and the scientists that were left there, engineers, said, we don't know how to do it.
They sent engineers to museums and places with being able to mic parts and make copies of it.
Because once we finished landing on the moon, and most of the other engineers will tell you, they had visitors that showed up at their door and confiscated their operations handsbook, their drawings, and things like that.
Those were taken away from us.
And so, consequently, when we were told...
I'm looking at another picture here of the lunar surface.
I think the orientation is a little bit off.
I think I'd turn it over the other way instead of the way it's looking.
Oh, really?
Let me see if I can do that.
I should be able to rotate the photo easy enough.
I'm not sure which way you think.
Is that the right way or no?
That's the right way.
That looks good.
It's just the way our minds process things when we're looking at things.
But when you're in zero G and you're upside down and going backwards, it does take a little bit of imagination to get your proper orientation.
Now, I think that I got this photo, actually, I kind of grabbed it.
It might be off of a moving, you know, actually a film that I took off YouTube.
I don't even know if this is not one of yours, I don't think.
But do you recognize this at all?
One of mine that I'm familiar with, there's a lot of, what you might be looking at, that bright area there, looks like a bit of smudging out that's been done.
And that's the thing you have to look out for.
Right.
But we definitely look like we've got something in this crater here.
The two bright spots.
And also, if you look at the three craters just above that one in the middle, in the flat area between all three of those, it shines up really, really bright.
That would be something I'd want to look at.
If I had the actual NASA photo number, I could probably go to my archive collection and look up that.
To be honest, like I said, I just grabbed this.
It looked interesting to my eyes, so I wanted to get your response.
You've enlarged it a little bit, and if you look at the bright, shiny area going at an angle up towards the top, it looks slightly to the left.
You can almost see a line area where it has been.
Doctored out or smudged out.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting, nonetheless.
So what I'm going to do is kind of flash your photos now.
This is just one photo.
I'm going to take that down, and I'm going to put a bunch of other photos on here as we go.
So if you'll bear with me, I'm going to get this other...
Now, I was never a real anomalous person looking for anomalies and things.
In fact, for the 40 and 45 years that I'd kept all these pictures in plastic sleeves to keep the oxygen off so they would be preserved.
But as we sort of show these on the screen, if you feel moved to sort of talk about them, it would be interesting to get your response on some of these.
I guess, I'm not even sure if I'm doing this really right, but I was hoping that this would work well.
It's maybe not the best way to show things.
What are we looking at in this small...
It says the Lunar Sky Command Module and a question mark.
Well, if you're looking at the smaller picture below, that's the command and service module.
That's the one that fired the engines that put you in the trans-lunar trajectory from the Earth and got you into lunar orbit.
And you'd have the lunar module would have been docked to the front end of that.
But this picture is being taken by the Apollo lunar module whenever it came back up to dock.
What I see in the picture above is not a picture at a distance of the command module reflecting light.
In fact, that kind of makes me think of the statement that Dr.
Aldrin, Buzz Aldrin, made very recently where he talks about how he and Neil noticed that there was a bright light object that had been following them from the earth to the moon.
And they knew they didn't want to come out and say that we have a bogey or UFO, unidentified flying object, tracking them.
They made a decision when they called Mission Control to ask where the SRB stage was that kicked them out of the Earth orbit.
And they were told it was several thousands of miles and things away, and they knew right off.
And Buzz has come out publicly and said that that light tracked them and followed them all the way until they went into orbit around the moon.
Okay, you know...
There's a UFO. Absolutely.
Well, you know, that doesn't surprise me, but what I want to know is, I heard you talking to George Knapp, and I heard you talking about Edgar Mitchell, and the interesting story about Edgar Mitchell is that he is...
Out there publicly saying ET exists and so on and so forth.
And yet when you ask him about the moon, he denies seeing anything unusual on the moon or having any interaction with anything.
And I heard your explanation.
That was George Knapp said he was friends with Edgar Mitchell.
And you said your response at the time was that you thought, well, they were so busy doing other things they didn't notice.
Now, I'm sorry to...
You know, be the sort of devil's advocate as they say here, but that makes no sense to me because the whole reason an astronaut wants to be an astronaut is to go to other planets, one assumes, and to discover what?
Life on other planets.
So if there was some indication...
I don't care how busy they are.
They're going to notice it.
You know what I'm saying?
So when you say that, is that just you trying to sort of explain away why there's a discrepancy between Edgar Mitchell's testimony on the one hand that, yeah, ET exists.
On the other hand, that he saw nothing on the way to or from the moon and or on the moon.
Okay.
There's been a lot of research done on that, and I know that each crew members, upon return, went through debriefing, and the woman doctor, as I understand, and now I'll tell you probably one of the best places to get the breakdown on that was a publication by Richard C. Hoagland where he went into a lot of detail of during the debriefing.
Sure, the book Dark Mission.
I read the book.
I actually read the book, but go ahead.
Debriefing and actually debriefing and deprogramming things that we witnessed and saw.
There have been evidence that, you know, you ask them, well, you know, what did it feel like?
And their comment was, you know, I don't remember what it...
It felt like, but they can tell you what the mission was and what they did to accomplish the mission, but when you get into the details, it's very difficult.
So you asked my own personal opinion on why Dr.
Mitchell has a problem.
Part of that was part of the deprogramming, where you couldn't...
If you saw an anomaly, or let's say...
I didn't personally hear the tape, but I have talked to other, at the time, engineers that were at NASA at the time of Apollo 7, spoken to the, we call it the private line.
What they do is they tell everyone else to turn off their headsets and he talks directly to the doctor.
And he says, they're here.
They've landed on the side of the crater.
They're watching us.
And that's maybe paraphrasing, but this is the way I remember that I was told about it.
And now with Buzz coming out, over the period of time, it seems that debriefing or debugging, if you want to call it, is breaking down a little bit and the people are coming forward and remembering things that they saw that they couldn't remember after they went through that process.
So what about Buzz Aldrin?
I mean, Buzz Aldrin seemed to have a better memory than some of the others.
Is that right?
Well, he's come forward with information that some of the others have not.
So I don't know if that's better memory or just maybe he has a little stronger ability to break down the programming.
Sure.
And there's no doubt in, well, I would say in our minds, in speaking of my audience in general, because I don't know, you may be not that familiar with Camelot, but because of my 10 years of investigation into this subject, and I've got a substantial audience, some of whom are listening live right now, and we basically know, and it's common knowledge, that the astronauts were programmed and continue to be programmed.
In your case, do you feel that you were subjected to any kind of programming?
You're certainly something of a renegade, having come forward and having a memory, a good, solid memory, and you've got evidence and so on.
But do you ever wonder to yourself, for example, that there might be any areas where you yourself might have seen even more, know even more, and aren't able to come forward with it because of programming?
Has that ever occurred to you?
Not that I've possibly been programmed, and it's kind of like the Manchurian candidate, if you want to look at it that way, how they've been programmed.
I think because I was far enough down in the level, even though I sat in on meetings of, even I recall one member where we had, Bonner Von Braun was at, and with the astronauts, because I was representing the pilots from the lunar module standpoint.
But we were not the ones that made the missions.
We didn't go, so I guess they kind of figured that we weren't that important to deprogram.
But then again, as I said earlier, once we finished one phase of the program, we got laid off.
And, you know, in those days, we didn't have 401Ks and stuff like that.
We had to live on what we'd saved.
Barely be able to make it by until you get another job.
And that's just the way things were done.
But we were excited and proud of being part of the team that accomplished John Kennedy's goal.
And that was to go to the moon in that decade.
And we accomplished that.
But as far as me personally, I don't think I've been programmed or deep.
I just didn't have the opportunity to come forward because I was so busy getting into another field.
I became a flight instructor for the Boeing company for 14 years and retired from Boeing.
We had a group of six of us at Boeing.
We jokingly called ourselves the Majestic 12.
And in those days, we didn't have emails, we didn't have computers, all this, and we would hear something or get a copy of a report of something, UFOs or what have you, or ET, and we'd make copies and send them in the inner office mail, and we'd get them.
That's how we kept track of each other.
And when we'd get a book, they were really good stuff, we would pass it on to the others of us and let us know.
And I was called by one of my friends...
And he says, you know, there's Richard Hoban, the guy that wrote that first book that we had just read about, is in town and he's going to be at a conference.
And I was off that night.
I said, I'm going to go see him and get his autograph.
And I checked in.
I went to the conference room.
Went up to the desk and I was getting ready to pay my deal and I said, oh, I've written a letter of introduction to Mr.
Hoagland because he said he was looking for people that might have pictures or information about the Apollo program.
The woman looked at my letter, I said, her eyes got big and says, don't move, stay right where you're at.
And I thought, oh, I am in trouble now that maybe I shouldn't have told him.
And with just a couple of minutes, Mr.
Hoagland came out from back, and I told him a little bit of what I had and what was going on and about my archive and what I had collected.
He took me down front, set me in the front for the whole conference, and the next day he came with a group of four other people to my house, and I'd gotten my collection out of my safe.
I had a big 3,000-pound safe to keep things.
I'm a background.
I admit it, and I say things that I think are important for history, and I'd already...
Given one complete set to Oklahoma City University, and I'm glad that I did.
But anyway, so they were looking at that.
In fact, my wife had never really paid any attention to the pictures I had, and we're all talking and looking at stuff, and they're saying, oh my God, would you look at this picture?
Because so-and-so sent it to them, and it doesn't look at all like the real stuff.
Myself, I looked at one of the particular picture in the visor of the astronaut, it's Apollo 14, I think, Apollo 12, excuse me, where up in the top left corner of the astronaut's spacesuit visor, there's a reflection of an object suspended in the lunar atmosphere or lack of atmosphere.
And so we had never really looked at looking for anomalies or what have you.
But things kind of went wild after that.
And in order to protect the archive and protect me, Bridget Hogan set it up for me to attend a press club in Washington, D.C. and come forward and tell the rest of the world and other nations that we did find things on the moon.
And they felt that it would be safer for me to be that public about it so that I couldn't just accidentally have an automobile accident or fall off the edge of the earth because we're flat.
Actually, well, Project Camelot, you know, specializes in whistleblowers, and our motto is the best place to hide is out in the open.
So that makes sense to us, certainly.
I hate it.
So you actually broke up when you said the year you left.
Was it Northrop or Boeing?
The last year, I guess you must have retired after that.
Well, no.
Let's look at it.
I left the NASA space program in...
December 1980, I went to Denver, I went to work for Martin Marietta, and we were part of the space shuttle program, and I was there during the approach and landing test, the very first landing test for the shuttle, and then I was transferred out to Vandenberg Air Force Base,
where we were renovating what they call SLIC-6, and that was a launch complex for a very large type spacecraft, and we were Redesigning the launch facility to be able to have the West Coast launch facility for the shuttle.
And it was while we were there, and I was getting ready to make a trip to the Cape for one of the first launches, and that's when the Challenger blew up.
And so they canceled that for me.
Well, do you have any theories on the Challenger disaster?
Yep.
The theory I have on that is that Part of it, as I said earlier, some of our best scientists and engineers and things had left.
And then we had a group of people that were there that their job...
Was to just promote and keep pushing.
But one of the last tests I was involved with, with the ILC Corporation at NASA, which was the ones that designed the shuttle spacesuit systems, was to test a system whereby we could repair the tile in orbit around the Earth while we're in space.
And they decided we've been so successful with the launches that we've done with the shuttle that we don't need to carry that extra 1,500 pounds of the man maneuvering unit and all the repair stuff on mission.
So they canceled all of that.
And it happens as they get too much pride in being able to do what no other country was doing.
And they just took a chance.
And we knew that some tile...
Well, no, there's two different things.
The Challenger blew up on launch.
And that was because the amount on launch, it broke loose and came down and damaged the side and caused a rupture of the hydrogen and the oxygen station.
You had a tremendous blow up and we lost all of those.
In fact, I knew all of the astronauts on that mission with the exception of the school teacher that was on that flight.
So it was tough.
I wound up going to work with the other companies and wound up with Boeing and then retired from Boeing later.
Okay, and you retired from Boeing what year?
I retired.
Well, first of all, I left NASA in 1980.
Went to work for Martin Marietta for a while.
And then after they shut down, because of the challenge, they shut down the West Coast Launch Facility.
And then I went to work for the Boeing company up in Seattle as a 737 flight instructor for Boeing.
And after 14 years at Boeing, I retired in 1998.
Okay.
So was that actually your, you know, you didn't actually do any other jobs since then, 98?
Yeah.
Not, well, except for being one of their solar system ambassadors.
Oh, right.
Where JPL, you know, I actually was a contractor for JPL for a while in the communications area, so I know JPL pretty darn well, I have to say.
And anyway, so that's very interesting.
Are you familiar with, actually, you know, I have a million questions for you.
So did you know Brian O'Leary, for example?
No.
He was at NASA while I was, and then I think he left.
I was asked...
Okay.
Sorry, I think we lost you there.
You were about to answer the question.
Okay.
Right, I did.
What I said was that I knew who Brian O'Leary was, and I'm sure I was in a meeting where he and some of the other astronauts were, but as far as knowing him personally, I did not know him personally.
Okay.
You know, what's interesting about Brian is he passed on, I think it was a little over maybe a year ago.
But at any rate, you know, he actually left the United States because he felt he was under threat because of some of his disclosures.
And he actually is a person who said...
That his records were being also disappeared by Caltech, where he had taught and had worked at for years.
And this is a famous astronaut, if you can appreciate.
He was part of the Mars.
He was supposed to go to Mars.
He never did, but was trained to do so.
And so they have sort of a record of actually turning against their own, so to speak, and then trying to disappear their records.
In fact, a journalist in San Diego was fired for trying to do an article on Brian O'Leary while he was still alive.
And this is how we got the story because Brian and the journalist found out that they actually wanted to do away with all his records.
It was impossible to do.
Obviously, it's pretty hard to disappear a guy, especially when he's still alive in his records.
And I guess you've come across something similar in your own sort of trajectory, right?
Right.
Lots of times.
And Russia was pretty good at scrubbing out someone's existence.
They would take photos and they would actually just paint them out where the person wasn't there.
And one of the guys who was an expert of that, and that was Mr.
James Oberg, he had...
He was an expert on the Russian program.
And he and I used to sit together in his office and we'd talk about everything from man's progress of being terrified of finding out the existence of extraterrestrials all the way up to...
He liked to joke and say that, you know, we started off with the blob and people were terrified by that.
And ultimately, if a saucer were to land on the White House lawn...
And a big, hairy, fuzzy thing came out.
A little kid would say, hey, look, Mom, there's a cookie monster.
He's my friend.
So it's been a progress there.
Now, in the United States, a number of people expunged their records.
And thank God I was a pack rat, and I kept all the documents and the records and the NASA numbers on them and everything else.
And every time they'd come out attacking me...
Friends of mine and other people have come to my aid that had copies because now I've published them out on the internet.
They're there for everybody.
They leave me alone pretty much now.
And I've been told that the main people that have been going after me have been told to back off and leave me alone because I'm getting more publicity when they attack me than if they left me alone.
So, you know you saw structures on the moon, and we are familiar with what we call the greys.
They're sort of prolific.
They're everywhere.
And we know that there are many different races of greys, as well as what we call programmable life forms that appear to be sort of semi-biological, I guess, and that those may have been even created by our military organizations.
So what's your point of view and the beings, the actual beings who may be on the moon and have built those bases?
Well, this is a different direction than where I've gone with most of it.
In talking with a few people with MUFON, other people who have studies with contact, I've told a story just recently, and it'll be out in one of the books that we're going to get into.
My first book It's called Hart, H-A-R-T, Texas, out in the country, where our closest neighbor was like a mile and a half away.
We received a phone call, I was like seven years old, from a neighbor that said that there'd been a tremendous rain, but there'd been a lightning struck probably right out from where our house was, about 50 yards.
And I was the youngest of three boys.
In the family, so we put on our coats and we went out.
My older brother, he was going to be sophisticated and take his time.
My middle brother, Jimmy, I would outrun him because I didn't want to be last, being the smallest.
When I got out about 50 yards out, there was an area which was smashed down the maze in the early stages of the maze.
It had been smashed down into a circle about 25 feet across, I would guess now.
And on the far side, there was what we call a hooping crane, a big bird.
And it turned its head.
It looked at me, turned its head back forward.
It starts running across this crop circle and flapped its wings a couple of times, lifted off, and then disappeared.
And I had asked my brothers if they had seen that, and they claimed they hadn't.
And the people I've talked to, they want to get a professional in doing regression, hypnosis, and go back.
But there have been...
When you take that experience at six and a half, seven years old, and the other events that have happened out through my whole life, the first book is my autobiography.
So many things have happened in my life that had it happened differently, I wouldn't have been there to save the pictures, to be at the right place at the right time.
And I think that...
The book's going to be interesting when I go out and I tell it all and let it, as you say, let it all hang out.
I kind of have kept that part of my history totally quiet because in America, they go after you and attack you and make everybody seem like they're crazy, stupid, or whatever, whereas other countries now have come forward with their UFO records and what have you.
Absolutely.
I'm willing to talk about it now.
Well, I appreciate that.
I appreciate your story.
So you might have had some missing time, sounds like.
There were a lot of experiences happening after that where constant dreams.
One of the biggest ones was in the third grade when the dream was that in this big field out behind our house, a craft landed and it was a shimmering like a water curtain surrounding it.
And the neighbors, this was once we moved into the town, had all shown up to look at this thing.
And they were all, you know, oh my God, what's happening here?
And then a door opens and it's like shifts a waterfall and a curtain opens.
And there's a being, taller, you know, waved at me to come in.
And everybody else backed off and started leaving.
I just walked over and walked inside.
And the dreams would go on for years and years about where I went.
How I was being trained to be an ambassador between their peoples and our peoples.
And there's so much going on there.
Can you describe the being that greeted you at the door?
Can you describe that being?
That particular being was more of a Norris, a blonde, blue-eyed Medium build and medium height.
And once I went up, I remember going up inside the stairs and there were other beings there kind of, you know, waving and waiting at me to come on in.
There was another event that happened.
We were taken on board a very large craft, and as kind of like a tour, they were taking the students because they were training us, and there were other entities of different shapes and different configurations.
They just looked different.
There were the grays.
There were some...
They took us in one room where there were tanks where they looked like infants who were being grown inside these tanks.
One of the things we were doing is being taught how to be a go-between between humans on Earth and intelligent beings from other systems and other realities, I guess.
I'm not sure.
But at any rate, I kind of...
Go ahead.
Well, I mean, you know, in terms of these experiences, you're writing a book, I take it, another book that's going to have some of this in there?
Well, we've got two books out right now.
The first one is...
And the second one that's out is mission reports.
Now, while I was active there at the Lunar Seating Laboratory and I'm through there, every time we'd have a mission within a week or two after getting back, we would release the mission reports, which gave in detail what the objectives were, how we were going to do them, and what we did to accomplish that and pictures and things that went on.
So those that I have are undoctored.
If you can even find newer ones, they've been changed.
That's book number two.
Book number three is releasing my whole collection, my whole archive of all the pictures that I've kept secret for all these years.
And I said for other people that have information, you need to come forward and get it out there before you're gone.
And then it's lost to history and society.
So that's book number three.
The other book that's in is My Metaphysical Journey, which kind of gets into what we were just talking about, book number four.
Right now, we've got two already out.
If you go to KenJohnstonMedia.com, you can find out about where the first two books are.
And I'm going to be adding a lot more to that autobiography book.
So anyone who has already bought the book will be getting a free upgrade.
Those are e-books right now.
You talked about Oberg briefly, and you said he was sort of a debunker.
Is that right?
Well, we were good friends, and he's gone after me numerous times.
And a year and a half ago when the Mars Society had their convention at the Johnson Space Center, James and I got together and he was showing me a 16mm picture from a handheld 16mm camera from the command module window, supposedly of the backside of the moon.
And Tommy said that was the only pictures they took.
Yeah, absolutely.
That one is upside down, if you can rotate it.
Oh, it's interesting that we got the number right side up, but then the pictures are upside down.
Now, this is a module, is that right?
Mm-hmm.
This is the command and service module.
It looks like a can of vegetables attached to the back end of the command module, which has the heat shield that lets you re-enter the Earth's atmosphere.
So the service module shows the payload bay door open on the side.
That's where all the cameras and different things like that are mounted.
While the two guys are down on the lunar surface, The one like on Apollo 11, Mike Collins, stayed in the command module, keeping house and taking pictures and doing experiments as it's going around the Earth.
Okay, but how did we get a picture like this from the outside of this module?
Is that the Earth in the background or not?
That is the moon.
And if you look at the top picture, and you look over on the far side, right where that little line goes up there, they missed that.
We were always interested in looking at the spacecraft and how we got there.
We didn't look down at the moon, but if you look at it, you can see all of those domes all in perfect alignment, and they've enlarged it in the bottom picture.
And that was Brett Shepard is the one that discovered this on one of my pictures, and I was flabbergasted when I got a chance to look at it.
Because, now this is not quite the same, but the domes look very much like the ones that I had seen.
There you go, enlarge it, great.
In the original picture, you can see it on the lunar surface, and that's where, with his training as an artist and being able to...
Hello?
Domes, either habitats, all in line, both top to bottom, left to right, and then larger ones off the side, which are very similar to large antenna array.
So this, I was flabbergasted when he showed me this picture just within the past, what, four or five months, I think, that we've been together.
Okay, but I still want to understand, do we have two craft?
I mean, why are we even able to see, you're seeing this, the module, was this superimposed over this image?
What craft are we viewing this picture from?
That is the Apollo 15 command and service module as being photographed from the lunar module on their way coming back up to Rendezvous and docked.
I see.
So it looks like, though, if you're saying they're coming to be docked, it doesn't actually look like it's underneath a vehicle.
It's actually shot from the side.
So how does that work?
Well, when you and you'll do a complete rotation, roll, pitch, and yaw, and a complete rotation around, so you can see if you have any damage done to your spacecraft before you line up.
And you'll notice, in your picture, you're looking at the command module upside down with the nose cone coming out to the docking probe.
That's that little dark pointed thing at the tip down at the bottom.
That's the docking probe.
The lunar module has like a funnel that that would dock into.
So, yes, we didn't have Photoshop.
We didn't have anything like that.
The best we could do would be to paint things out.
And if you order that picture number, that AS-1588-11967 from NASA, you look, you can see where they have painted and smudged out that base that's on the lunar surface.
Right, what we see over here.
My pictures have the original because mine were made from the original negatives.
That's why they've been so anxious to protect my archive.
Well, I'm sure of that.
Actually, I would say that if someone wasn't examining every photo, including the ones that you have, that even that indicates programming because you're told not to look for something as opposed to...
You know what I'm saying?
It's kind of an interesting thing.
Now, in terms of what's going on with the moon and China going to the moon and saying there was no evidence of, I don't know if you heard that story, where they said there was no evidence that America had landed on the moon.
Did you hear that?
Oh, I've heard that so many times.
And I love it because these people espousing such things weren't even born when we did this.
And all you have to do is take the Hubble telescope, and right now they even make it available to people on Earth to be able to actually align it.
And it takes and focuses in on, and you get pictures of it from Hubble on the lunar surface, and they will zoom in with the Hubble telescope.
You can see the descent stage still sitting on the moon.
You can see the tracks where the rover drove around on the moon.
Right.
You know, people have just been smoking something a little bit too strong.
Okay, but did you hear that actually the Chinese had said something about that, that, you know, they recently sent a craft up there.
I don't think it landed, although maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it did land.
I didn't pay a lot of attention to it.
But what do you think, because China, you know, that was a rumor that came out of China.
Did you think that that was then disinfo that they were trying to put out there?
Part of your question was all blocked off and didn't come through, but I'll address the Chinese one.
It's kind of funny that we have such a bad connection when you've done so many interviews.
It's really fascinating that they're really afraid you're going to say something here to me that way.
Because I'm going to ask you some good questions that most people won't have the guts to ask you.
But go ahead.
So what do you think?
You think China was lying, you know, the China News Service or whoever came out with that, was China putting out disinfo when they said they didn't come across any American debris?
Or was that just disinfo in your opinion?
Well, they did not land near enough to walk to or drive their little lunacod over to one of our landing sites.
So there's still so much political garden, the major powers of the world, and each one wants to one-up the other.
And so they'll leak information saying, oh, this one didn't do that, or they did this.
And right now, I can say I've seen reports showing that some of the, particularly some of the Chinese landing, has been hoaxed.
And another one is that they drove their Lunacod over to a specific area where they're very, looked like part one time a habitat, because that was reflecting high quality metal and glass, and And they claim they never went there, although another picture actually shows the tracks that they went there when they had shut down, sending signals and pictures back to the air.
So take it with a grain of salt from what you hear from the Chinese mission.
Okay, well, you know, I saw a presentation on the internet, Richard Hoagland talking about China and their space sort of excursions at the moment.
And I am interested that people are taking them so on face value and not questioning what they're really doing and whether they've really accomplished what they say.
I have whistleblowers, as you may know, and one of my whistleblowers told us a long time ago, and he worked for a variety of places, including, gosh, what's the name of it?
Anyway, a lot of top secret places.
He said that we did go to the moon, but we had quote-unquote help, and that in essence the so-called rocket technology was not what got us there.
Do you have anything to say about that or any thoughts on that?
As I said, half of your conversation was blocked.
I didn't hear it.
And I'm not sure what the question is.
One of my whistleblowers, I'll say it again and hope you can hear it.
One of my whistleblowers said, we went to the moon, but we had help.
And basically saying that our rocket technology...
You know, didn't get us there.
We were using ET technology.
You know we've got crashed UFOs around the planet.
This has been going on since actually the 1940s and even earlier if you want to track the Nazis.
So it's very likely that our space program got their hands on some technology.
Do you think that's likely?
I think it's more likely the fact that Bonner Von Braun, once we brought him on, the paper clip guys, onto the space program, their knowledge of rocketry and designs are what got us there.
Since then, and I think one of the hidden Ideas was who could get there first and land in the right places might discover technology that could spring us further ahead than the others.
And the same thing is going on on Mars right now.
Mars is just wide open.
Well, you're supposed to go to Mars as a commercial space venture, is that right?
Well, very interesting you ask that question.
The Mars One Corporation out of the Netherlands in 2012, I believe it, that far back, started looking for people willing to go to Mars one way to colonize.
And my wife asked to take the train to go 100 miles north from where I live up to Santa Fe, and she was listening to a newscast where they were looking for people that had Past experience like I did.
And she called me on the cell phone and says, you know, if you really want to go to Mars, you better get your application in.
And I did that.
So for over two years, two and a half years, I was the only one that started off at 70 years old.
They said they wanted people from the ages of 18 to 80.
So here I am at 70.
I said, why not?
And so I applied.
And They started off 202,586 people to go one way to Mars.
They got that down to 11,000, down to 1,050, to 1,056, and then down to the final 100.
And each time they sent me to Switzerland to give a talk over there, Poland, all over the United States.
They were getting a lot of mileage out of my past experience.
Being the oldest person that could bridge the gap between the older generation and the younger ones to go to Mars.
And so when they announced the final 100, a friend of mine and I, we went through the list, and there wasn't a single one of them that was over 60.
So in other words, I got tagged again for being too old for the space program.
And again, I think they made a mistake, but...
And you were actually willing to leave the Earth and not come back, though.
Isn't that right?
Absolutely.
And my wife said that she's glad that I'm not going.
Hello?
She has always been my goal, even back when I was a little kid and those dreams, is that I would...
I'll tell later some of the things that I dreamt that I did while I was on Mars.
Well, actually, let's stop right there.
What did you dream when you went to Mars?
I'd love to hear it.
Me and my big mouth, right?
I don't want to ruin the story for them, but you're probably familiar with the term out-of-body experience.
Sure.
Okay.
In one...
And the way I tell most people that have had out-of-body experiences, if you realize where you're at, you're just you, your body.
There's no clothing involved in anything else.
You're there.
And I'm standing up on top of a ridge and I'm looking off in a distance and I lean forward and I lift off and I just float and sail across the Martian surface and I fly over the top of some ancient ruins that were there and It was quite a fascinating dream and experience.
You can certainly understand in America why coming forward talking about things like that, you're labeled as crazy, I guess.
But now, in other countries, they're much more open to researching and finding out.
That's why I think Dr.
Lesson is going to be here for a conference we're going to do in October, and I'm hoping that he'll be willing to do regression We'll go back and find out the things such as the exact real number of that film that I showed that had the base on the backside of the moon for Dr.
Page, as well as what's been locked up in my memory all these years.
I'm looking forward to it.
I would suggest that these things aren't dreams, that they actually possibly happen.
There's all kinds of Technology that can allow the secret space program to access you as an asset and sort of have you work as an astronaut in essence when you don't even know you're doing it.
There's not a lot of research in this area.
Right.
One of the people that I've talked to about this asked me the question, when did I realize that I had these dreams and things and that I actually had, it had been an actual experience because then I was brought back.
Part of it is that I tried to use one of the smallest craft that I've been taught to fly to come back to the earth.
Well, I got stopped and then I was brought back as a kid and then I had to grow up but be protected on several events throughout my life.
So it's not just, I think we, the technology that ET has, has the ability to go back in time and bring things forward.
So we'll wait and we'll find out.
I'm anxious to talk to Dr.
Lesson and see where we go from there.
Okay.
Now, I've got somebody who did a little research for me, which, before this interview, and I'm not going to say who that is.
It's one of my sort of secret contacts.
And I'm going to read you something, okay?
And I want to get your reaction.
So, he said...
I dropped my pen.
Wait a minute.
Oh, sure.
I dropped my pen.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Oh, all right.
Well, he said, actually, maybe it'll be helpful.
I'll put this on the screen.
That way, everyone can read it at the same time.
So let me...
Hold on one second here.
Question.
It actually really gets to the heart of the problem in some ways, so you can tell me what you think about it, but this way you can also read it at the same time, but I'll read it out loud.
Bechtel and other lunar mining initiatives for precious metals and helium-3 are Since 1993, Bechtel is on record with NASA proposing a self-contained lunar mining operation based on their experience with Canadian gold mining and other operations in the far north.
It is curious that Bechtel was prepared to go back to the moon and build a base in 1993 when the US government as well as NASA scientists claimed they couldn't do it before 2025.
Now, I have a not-so-secret witness, Captain Mark Richards from the Secret Space Program, who told me that Bechtel is a heavy, what we call a heavy, you know, just a sort of lingo, in the Secret Space arena, and that the Bechtel family has a big influence on what I call the Secret Space Program.
So what do you think about that?
You know, here Bechtel is all ready to do some mining on the moon in 1993.
This is a corporation, a major corporation.
Are they pulling someone's leg or what's going on there?
I would not be at all surprised, and I can't say from firsthand experience that I've met or talked to any of them, but doing research similar to what you've done yourself, because I know from past military and other experience that we have black ops programs going on that take years and decades sometimes before it becomes public.
This would not surprise me a bit.
I'd be surprised.
I gave a lecture at Oklahoma City University in which we were talking about I got misquoted by the paper and when I was telling them that From the regoliths, the soil, if we could break that down and take water and break down the oxygen and hydrogen, we could create fuel.
Well, it came out in the press that I said that we could land and refuel our spacecraft to take off again.
A lot has to happen in between.
So there is the technologies and things that are out there.
It wouldn't surprise me.
I do not have firsthand experience or knowledge of that.
But...
Why not?
We should have been on Mars by 1997, because the way we were going to get to the moon by 69, 10 years later, we should have had a base on Mars.
And I have seen photographs and pictures where they've smudged out things and other things that have been sent back from Mars that shows that there are bases.
So we're not being told anything.
Absolutely.
One of the things you talked about, you know, you saw them actually trying to smudge out stars, saying the stars would be distracting, was your explanation that they gave you, I guess, as to why they were smudging out those stars.
One of my contacts said that it's possible they were actually...
Doing that because certain star patterns would have indicated where they really took the pictures to begin with.
And that's the real reason.
They smudged out the stars, having nothing to do with distraction.
But the fact is that then they would know that the picture with the background of the stars would actually tell you where in space they were when they took that photo.
No, I've not heard that one, but that does make some sense.
I thought so.
They were painting out some of the towers and things that I've seen and pictures we had from some of the first voyagers that went around the moon.
There's even a great picture that I think Mr.
Hogan put in that shows a dome on the crest, the curvature of the moon, that was collapsed and cracked and partly fallen in.
So, yeah, probably...
Okay, so I understand you're a 32nd degree Mason, is that correct?
That is correct.
Okay, so does that mean that some of your testimony today will be influenced by secret oaths you've taken that also pertain to being a member of the Masons?
I'm going to answer that with no, they don't.
And I'll carry that on.
A lot of people think that just because you've reached the level of 32nd degree that you are on the inside.
My experience growing up and being the worshipful master of Lodge three different times and in the Scottish Rite as well as the Knights Templars is that it's a selection process and that you're being selected for grooming for higher position and more knowledge.
Rank and file from the very lowest entered apprentice to the 32nd degree and the 33rd degree May not be privy to the watchers.
I'll use it that way, the watchers' archive, the watchers' information.
And very few of us ever get told anything about the ancient history of us.
And I personally think that Masons have been the keepers of archives and files that scattered around this world.
But knowing my testimony has not been clouded at all because to me, and I can throw this back to the Harry Potter thing.
It says, you know, the truth shall set you free.
And I've always been an advocate.
So long as you tell the truth, you don't have to worry about what story you told to somebody or what life you told where.
Let's stick with the facts and stick with the truth.
Uh, Okay, so let's see.
Do you think, let's see, that all of the images that crossed your desk came from the moon?
In other words, a person who also wrote to me said, isn't there a possibility that they might have even been doctored before they got to you?
Is that at all possible?
If something was really, really blatant, such as maybe a picture of a craft close to it, I would not have been able to see that.
But the fact that I was working directly with all the scientists and working directly with the photo lab department and had access to go behind into the top secret area, I would say no.
My collection, my archive is of such value to people that do want to research and look at things.
Just like that one that you were looking at the base a while ago.
I've had these things for 40 and 45 years, and I never looked at it that way until Brett Shepard says, would you take a look at this?
And this has only been within the last few weeks.
It's just...
And I'm flabbergasted at it, but I've never looked at it that way.
But, you know, I appreciate that.
Well, you know, this generation on the Internet actually questions everything, as you can appreciate.
And, first of all, did you know Ben Rich?
No, I don't recall.
Okay, you know he was the head of StuckWorks?
Oh, no.
I wouldn't have had an opportunity to know if it was in Skunk Works.
I know Boeing has its own business working with commercial airlines, and so I didn't have a need to know.
Okay.
In terms of the technology, how close did you get to the craft and the technology?
I recall seeing one video where you said as a pilot you actually went into the module yourself.
You physically would climb in there with a space suit on.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said to demonstrate that some people have made the point that you couldn't fly anywhere in those tin cans, so to speak, that they were too small to allow for passengers.
But you yourself have climbed inside the actual ones that went into space.
Is that right?
Well, if you can say that over 3,000 hours as a lunar module spacecraft pilot qualifies me to answer that, I would say yes.
In fact, I get a big kick out of these idiots that say, oh, well, you couldn't even go through the door.
And I said, I've got hundreds of pictures of me with a spacesuit on, crawling through the door, in and out, in the vacuum chambers.
So, you know, I don't understand what motivates people to ask something so stupid.
When I've got all the documentation, prove it.
No, yes, there's plenty of room.
In fact, most people don't realize we flew the lunar module standing up, but we had restraints connected to a belt around our waist.
In zero-g, we wouldn't float away from there because you fly a lunar module like you fly a helicopter.
You've got two different controllers.
It's the attitude controller system, and that gives you roll, pitch, and yaw in a fixed position.
The left hand is a T-handle on it.
And that's the thrust translation controller.
And that, you can move it up or down.
And basically, if you're looking at where you are in space in one spot, if you move it up, you're moving up along the X. Why?
You're going to move down.
You move left, move right, move forward or backwards.
That's controlled with your left hand.
So it takes two hands to fly it.
And there's plenty of room in there.
In fact, when we slept on the moon, we strung up a hammock, one going one side to the other, and one running front to back.
So they just don't know what they're talking about.
They should go to the Smithsonian...
And take a look at the lunar module there.
That's my spacecraft, LTA-8, Lunar Test Article No.
8.
In fact, if they'll go anywhere on the Internet, put Ken Johnston at Smithsonian.
You'll see the lunar module there, and I'm there giving you two or three movies there on it.
Talking about what we did and how we did and what all the different things are on the lunar module that's sitting there.
The reason you don't have any of the lunar modules is we left the descent stage on the moon.
We rendezvoused with the command module in the asset stage of the lunar module.
And once we transferred everything else, we jettisoned the upper stage of the lunar module to impact on the lunar surface.
And that was one of the first giveaways.
When the first one hit, we had already put seismology equipment in the Apollo lunar surface experiment packages on the lunar surface.
So when the LM hit, upper stage hit the lunar surface, it set off the moon ringing like a bell and it would ring for hours.
And that's why a lot of people say a large portion of the moon is probably hollow.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Now, are you familiar with remote viewing?
Yes, I am.
Have you ever done it?
I have.
Okay, and do you think you're successful at it?
Well, there was a gentleman who, let me think here, in Florida, the And Vance Davis, there were a couple of military people that were before the Berlin Wall went down, and they were on the American side listening to the Russians on the other side.
Can you help me out here, Brent?
What is the name of that in Florida?
Gulf Breeze.
Gulf Breeze.
Okay.
Vance Davis was one of the two guys that...
Basically, they went AWOL. They left Germany.
They got back to the United States.
They were at Gulf Breeze when the big UFO flap was going on in Florida.
Now, he is an expert at doing remote viewing.
He, at my request, came to Seattle and held a class on developing and doing remote viewing.
And I had the opportunity of practicing it and some success at some times of actually being able to project my mental abilities or what have you to other locations and observe what was going on.
So I am somewhat familiar with remote viewing.
Okay.
Yeah, because that's very interesting.
You know, I remote viewed the moon and actually saw these beings in these robes, very tall beings in robes, and also some short beings, and they were growing structures, literally growing them using sound technology.
And what happened later was that Richard Hoagland came forward with his idea of these glass-like structures, or I don't know if they're made of silicon or what, on the moon.
I guess you've heard his theories about that, and I wonder what you think about that.
I think whatever the men in black are doing, they cut off your question completely.
The only thing I heard was, what do you think of that?
Okay, I remote viewed the moon and I saw very tall beings and they were growing structures using sound technology and Richard Hoagland came forward a few years later with the theory about glass structures on the moon.
Have you heard about the glass-like structures on the moon?
Oh, okay, yes.
Now I caught enough of the question because you kept getting bleeped off.
That's terrible.
Yes, in fact, it was some of my pictures and things that helped him discover some of the glass structures and things that were on the moon.
And in fact, the domes that I personally saw the first generation pictures of were what we would call glass domes.
And one of the most available materials on the lunar surface and the regolith on the moon is...
Hello?
It will fracture, but otherwise it's...
I'm sorry you broke up, because could I ask you to repeat, what was the material that you said will fracture?
I think...
Sorry?
Yeah.
I'm sorry, what was the material you said would fracture?
It's silicone, isn't it?
Glass is silicone?
Silicone.
Yeah, unless my limited geology, it's, you know, it's pure white sand is silicone, and you melt it and you can turn it into glass.
There's so much silicone in the soil on the lunar surface that it could be, in fact, one of my favorite samples from the moon.
From the impact of a small meteor with such force and heat melted the lunar surface, splashed some of the black glass, in this case, over on top of this rock and we brought it back.
I have a plastic model of that particular lunar sample.
All right.
Let's see.
I don't know.
Someone is asking me to ask you about, and I don't even understand why, but you changed assignments from McDonnell Douglas Space Center in Huntington Beach, California, 68, to work for Pacific Optical in Segundo, California.
And you were polishing tens of thousands, let's see, thousands of 10-inch diameter dome-shaped glass high-quality optical lenses a month.
Does that make any sense at all to you?
And that there were, I don't know, the instruments were supposed to be for cameras, the lunar excursion module.
Does that question make any sense?
Well, it does a little bit because we had a specialist in making lenses and windows for all the different spacecraft.
In order for us to look outside, we had to have a window that was strong enough to withstand the pressure that we needed to keep alive inside our spacecraft.
So that makes a lot of sense.
I... I actually made a 12-inch reflector telescope.
I had a 12-inch diameter primary lens, basic to start with, and I went to that department over in the Johnson Space Center, and the person who fabricated the windows and the lenses helped me polish the 12-inch reflector for my telescope.
So, no, that was something that was done all the time.
Okay, yeah, I guess I still don't really get the drift of the question, I'm sorry, but in terms of why it really relates to anything, you know, in a major way.
Probably not as many lenses as what this person was saying that they made, but certainly we did make all of the lenses for our cameras and things for the lunar surface.
Okay.
Interesting picture.
Yeah, now this is another one of your pictures that I'm putting on the screen here, and it says that these are, I guess, advanced technology ruins.
And if you can take a look at, I guess they're trying to look closely at them.
Okay, I haven't seen this or looked at it, and we get a lot of anomalies sent in.
You can look in the middle of the top one and you can see a perfectly square looking slab that is not something you normally find in geology with perfect 90 degree angles and turns and stuff.
And I'm not sure exactly what this person was trying to say.
Well, this is actually one of yours.
This is one of yours that Brent sent me.
And I guess below is like some kind of a super close-up.
It's still hard to tell what we're looking at.
All right.
Let me ask you, what am I looking at here?
Is that...
He happens to be sitting here, so I'm going to ask him.
It kind of looks like a sphinx almost.
He says it kind of looks like a sphinx.
Artists are trained to be able to look at things a little different than we do.
A lot of these anomalies that people will see, I don't necessarily see them because I'm pretty much a straightforward engineer.
And I even talked to Brett the same way.
I said, I don't necessarily see what you see there, but he says it looks like a face.
Well, we know that if we stare at the wall of things long enough, we can make all kinds of faces.
And they've even come up with a terminology of what causes our minds to do things like that.
I mean, at least we can say, all of us just looking at this, it doesn't look natural necessarily.
That's correct.
It does not look natural.
And that's one of the first clues that you look at, is something catches your eye that's not quite natural.
And maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
In this case, I'm one of those that say maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
So I don't know either.
He's looking at me like maybe I'm crazy.
Maybe I'm getting into one of our towers.
What do you think about the notion that Stanley Kubrick was hired, not because we didn't go to the moon, but because they saw things on the moon that they didn't want to photograph and didn't want people to see.
And so they actually hired Kubrick to film enough things where they could put his stuff out there.
When they wanted close-ups or various things where they just couldn't airbrush out, like maybe, I don't know, maybe E.T. was walking around.
Maybe he couldn't airbrush out all the stuff they wanted to airbrush out, and so they actually had hired Kubrick.
What do you think about that idea?
Well, I've heard a lot about Stanley Kubrick's work, and I... I can accept the fact that for fear that we were going to crash and burn on the moon and not beat the Russians there and return safely, that there was some filming done in fake areas in the event that we did crash, or that we could say, yes, we did, here's the pictures, da-da-da, and it was partly staged.
But the part that I worked with and being there and even in and out of mission control, etc., There's no question in my mind that we succeeded in doing what we did.
This picture you have up right now has become extremely famous because you look at that rod, that's actually a mountain, and that rod at Cable is laying right up against the side of the mountain and sags due to the lunar gravity, albeit only one-sixth that of the Earth.
That's been around for quite some time, that picture, and it's not a scratch.
It's not a scratch on the lens or anything.
Yeah, fascinating.
We discovered a lot of things on the lunar surface that are still in my archive and pictures that you can't find if you go and try to get the same number nowadays.
Sorry, but for the reason thinking that, quote, we are not capable of handling...
That kind of evidence, we are at that point now where society can handle that, and that's why, move on, a few of the other organizations are saying we're in what they call soft disclosure.
Well, I would agree with that.
You know, I certainly think we've been trying to disclose quite a bit for quite a while now.
Let me ask you, what do you feel about the, I don't know if you heard about the press club, the Washington Press Club Disclosure Conference.
I don't know if they asked you to testify.
I don't recall seeing you there.
So were you aware of that event?
Okay, here we go again.
The National Press Club, and I've been there twice and testified before them.
Oh, you have.
The Disclosure Conference, were you part of that?
No, that's been since Richard Hoagland took me twice.
2006, I think, was the last time I was there at the National Press Club.
Okay.
All right.
Have you ever been approached by men in black?
Have I ever been approached by men in black?
You know what I mean by that, right?
I know exactly what you mean, and I'm trying to think.
When they came to the door and asked for any of the documents and things that I had, I guess you probably classified that as men in black.
They were just government...
Oh, and I've been quizzed and questioned before and interrogated.
And these people are so strange.
You know, they wear black suits and stuff, and they have white socks in with their shoes.
And they gave me a cup of coffee, and I put like three scoops of sugar in there.
And the first thing out of their mind says, oh, you do drugs.
I said, what are you talking about?
They said, well, people that do drugs like sugar, and they put too much sugar.
I said, no, I have a sweet tooth, and I like the taste of sugar.
So, yeah, I guess you could say I probably have run into them.
They've run into me before, but...
Nothing serious that I feel they've threatened my life.
They just threatened to disperse my character, I guess.
Okay, what about the idea of men in black that may not be human?
Did you ever, you know, some people who've reported they were approached by men in black said they look like they actually were kind of almost dead.
They seemed, they didn't behave physically, like, you know, they didn't act normal, even though they looked human, but they were, you know, did you ever hear that?
I've read those and heard about it as well.
I don't have any first-hand experience with non-human men in black, to put it in one way.
Again, keep an open mind, but don't believe everything you hear until you can prove it.
So I guess I have to kind of remain a little neutral on that.
So you know about the whole campaign to sort of disinfo this sector, to basically make people think that we are alone and so on.
It appears that you're a person who's pretty advanced thinking and you consider that we certainly are not alone, I take it.
Based on these structures you saw on the moon, I mean, if at that exact moment when you saw that, you had to know that that meant someone else that was there first, yeah?
It did.
And as I said, I was so excited about the fact that I had the privilege of looking at the first showing of this film.
But over the years, I've looked back and I thought, that means that Dr.
Page knew the exact reel, the exact number of film to pull out of the secure photo lab and show that to them.
And then they all laughed because they got to see it firsthand, something that they already knew.
Exactly.
So they already were in the know.
They were already in the know, those scientists.
Now, you called them geologists.
Were they all geologists, those guys that saw the first reel?
They were the beginning of what's become the astrogeologists.
They were at the Lunar and Planetary Science Department.
I don't know who the other six people were, the other scientists that were there.
I just assume, because at the time it was mostly all about geology and learning about the structure of the moon, and was it a part of the Earth, or did we capture it?
And so they were all part of a team, but I'm sure many of them were astronomers as well.
And as I say, they became the astrogeologists in the modern time.
Have you met...
Sorry?
I'm sorry, have I met whom?
No, go ahead and finish your sentence there.
I sat in on a couple of doctoral presentations out at the Lunar Planetary Science Building, which was...
Really interesting, and they were talking about one of them is being able to use a laser Gauss-generated time warp and fold in space.
This is back in 1969, probably 1970, that I sat in on that.
Oh, maybe 1969 before we landed on the moon, where they were talking about that would actually fold time and then just be able to move or run across a short distance and then unfold time, and you would...
Traveled all the way across the entire universe.
This was back in, as I said, 1968-69.
And then one of the other papers was using a laser almost six inches in diameter beam to be able to beam energy to a craft in space so you didn't have to carry all this fuel and everything else.
You just had a receiving antenna on the craft and would beam the energy up and you continue your voyage and do what you're doing.
So we're talking about I'm talking back in the very late 1960s where we had scientists and engineers that were designing and planning on doing things which would all be science fiction to us today still.
Well, isn't it a strange thing?
Now, somebody is asking in the chat, are you sterile from going through the radiation belt?
Okay, that's a very good question.
And the thing you have to understand is you don't go up and hang around in the Van Allen belt.
Hello?
Miles per minute.
And you're going to blast right through the Van Allen belt so fast that the amount of radiation that you would acquire going through the Van Allen belt is the equivalent of getting your teeth x-rayed.
So it's not a game stopper.
Okay.
Well, that's interesting, isn't it?
You know, you're aware of the commercial space ventures like Elon Musk.
Do you follow that in the news?
I sure have.
In fact, I'm thinking about offering to go to Mars for him.
Yeah, I was going to ask you why you didn't.
I have to get the books out first and get my archive out first.
Then I'm available to go to Mars.
Okay, good to hear.
So, have you heard about the sabotage, you know, that they deal with?
There have been a lot of failures.
Do you think that there is an intentional sort of drive to keep humans here on the planet and not to allow them to go off planet?
Or do you think that the secret space program is jealously guarding their own technology and doesn't want any competition?
Well, let's say that our civilian space program is successful.
It poses the fact that we already have a basis on Mars as well as on the Moon.
And how is the government going to explain that to the public about why it's been kept secret all this time?
It's a true political...
Conundrum, huh?
A ball that's going to come crashing down on whoever's in the office at the time.
How are you going to explain this away?
And the only thing they can do is, well, we were doing it for mankind to protect mankind because you weren't ready to.
And so don't tell...
Well, me, especially if I've already had the experience, that's where I think, and I'll go back to James Oberg.
He told me he didn't do a thesis on this, so I'm going to accept his word on it, because at the time he was talking about doing something like that, is that we took Brookings' directive of not exposing to the public What all is going on in the space programs or discovery of extraterrestrial life until we're mature enough as a society to accept it.
And if I'm not mistaken, didn't the Pope very recently say that there must be intelligent life somewhere else in the universe?
But at least that's a big step forward for the Catholic Church.
And we are a technological society and we've reached the point where I think it's high time that the truth is out.
I'm ready for it.
Okay, well, that's excellent.
So let me see.
I'm going to ask the people in the chat to put questions.
We have quite a large audience, believe it or not, out there, and that's very good to see.
And this is going to go onto the YouTube channel, obviously, right after we close this down.
Where I have, let's see, about 122,000 subscribers who are going to get notified about this interview.
And I have 42 million viewers.
So that's kind of a big audience.
So what you're saying here does matter, and you're certainly in a position to know a great deal.
So you seem to have been prepared since you were a boy to actually deal with ETs, right?
Have you ever encountered what you consider to be ETs, Anunnaki, walking the halls of the Pentagon, as Bob Dean would say?
I've met Bob Dean on several occasions, and he personally thanks me for coming forward with the information that I have.
And the answer to the first part of the question is yes, but it was only in my mind of this dream sequence that was happening as I grew up and matured.
This is part of the reason why I want to get Dr.
Les and do hypnosis and regression techniques of me to go back and find out just where these ideas and thoughts came from in my head.
Did I make them up myself?
You know, there's all kinds of questions to answer there.
But I find it interesting that I wound up being selected to be one of NASA's.
Sorry, you broke up right there.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Whereabouts?
Well, you were selected to be one of NASA's Solar System Ambassadors, right?
And that fits so well with what was in the dream state as a youth growing up at various stages of my whole life that I was being trained for by E.T. So I want to get to the bottom of this as soon as possible, and it's probably going to happen in this soon.
I'll find out.
Okay, what about Clark McClelland?
Do you know Clark McClelland?
No, Clark McClellan doesn't ring a bell to me.
Okay.
Actually, I'm very new to, within the last couple of years, to get involved with experiencers, if you will.
And that's one of the reasons why I've not really discussed anything that might have been my own personal experience, the reality of the science of things.
I see.
Well, Clark McClelland actually worked for NASA for many years, and he was there during the Apollo missions as well.
So I find it a bit strange, but I guess maybe it was a big crew and maybe you didn't cross paths.
But Clark, I've interviewed Clark McClelland, and he's quite well known for having seen on, I guess you call it a close-circuit television show.
What are basically Anunnaki instructing the astronauts on the space station.
He saw very tall beings and basically they were talking to our astronauts.
And he actually saw this in...
I guess he...
Let me see.
It looks like it was in 1991, so it was after you had left, I guess, NASA. Oh, yes.
But now, in that arena...
I, of course, have studied Zachariah Sitchin's books, one of my doctorates in religion, and I've studied most of the religions of the world, and I am in complete agreement with the analysis of the ancient Sumerian tablets of the existence of the Anunnaki, even in the Christian Bible.
You can find reference to that.
So the fact that That doesn't hurt my feelings one bit to think that we've been genetically manipulated to be so much more like the Anunnaki being used to be their servants.
They were kind of far behind and made big mistakes with embedding in us all this hatred because one person doesn't believe what the other person does.
It's about high time that we realize.
The latest thing that I've heard that I like the most is where it says we are all humans on this planet.
We just look a little different.
That's all.
Sounds good to me.
Now I'm putting this on the screen.
Let me see.
I think I've got it presented to everyone.
And so you should be able to see this article that came out.
This was a newspaper article about Clark in the Daily, I think it was the Daily Mail.
And that's a picture of Clark when he was working for NASA. He's in the space shuttle right now.
Right.
But he was on the ground a lot of the time, I guess.
And this is where he, I think, if I understood the story correctly, he actually saw this nine-foot being.
So you're not familiar with Clark.
It sounds like he's somebody that you could compare notes with because he's one of those people who was on hand and sort of in the right place at the right time, I guess you might say, And he saw this in person and then basically was told, you know, what he saw didn't happen.
So I'm just wondering, you know, I'm surprised that you never heard that story, huh?
Well, as you said, I left NASA proper in 1980, so I wasn't privy to that at the time.
We need to wake up and realize that we're not alone in this world and that we haven't been for thousands of years.
And the Earth isn't flat.
It's high time that we take a look at what's really out there and what's going on.
And I think we're at the point now where the Anunnaki and those are ready to let us join the interplanetary intelligent beings in the solar system.
So there's all types of different intelligent species out there.
Absolutely.
Now, have you heard about the return of Marduk?
The return of Marduk?
Oh, yes.
Is that the engineer you're talking about that has been to Mars, or...
No, Marduk is, you know, well, he's supposedly one of the son, I think a son of Enki, if I recall.
Oh, yes, okay.
And there's a cult that, sort of a secret society that worships Marduk, and they talk about his pending return.
In other words, the Anunnaki lived for thousands of years.
And so, in theory, he would still...
Actually, he could be in stasis and then awakened or something of that nature.
The reason I didn't recognize him is I've always called him Marduk instead of Marduk.
Oh, all right.
That's true.
And, of course, there's a lot of...
The Anunnaki played games with their creation.
We were cannon fodder to games of who was going to be worshipped the greatest and what have you.
And it was a big mistake.
And I think over the past few thousand years that Anunnaki have matured enough that I look forward to perhaps even meeting Marduk and as well as Inki.
Because as you said, in fact, a scientist here a few months ago said that the The first human to live beyond 200 years has already been born.
And, of course, my hand went up.
I'm ready to go for that.
But our DNA is such that we're not totally immortal from this time.
Even Anunnaki are not immortal.
They can be killed.
But their body keeps repairing itself.
And so, basically, they continue to live on.
No, I wasn't with NASA during the time that he said he saw the Anunnaki.
All right, all right.
So, let's see.
Antarctica.
Someone wants to know, why is it off-limits?
Do you know anything about Antarctica, the base there?
I read a few books and things on Antarctica, and there's that certain little wedge of the South Pole that is to any of the countries going on their building, their research centers there.
And, of course, some of the stories are that it is the scientists from the old Nazi World War II that went down there.
So I... It's just the things that I've read and heard that most other people have.
But it's interesting that if it's true that we're being warned off in that particular area of South Pole, Antarctica, that somebody's there.
Absolutely.
Now, Ashley, do you think that Planet X or any kind of incoming planetoid object is on its way here.
Have you heard the rumors of that and have you got any reason to believe that that's even believable?
Well, every, what, 2,600 years, supposedly, is the Nibiru elliptical orbit through our solar system.
And that's pretty well, and there's a very, very good article out that takes you step by step as to where you're going to be right now.
And the latest people claim they're seeing, from the South Pole, being able to see the extra planet coming up.
And it's going to be another, from what I just recently read on that, About 900 years before Nibiru will be close enough that we'll be able to see it and be looping around the sun close to us.
So I'm not going to believe that these people that are seeing everything, a lot of it are lens flares and mistakes, but the existence of it and the fact that they don't have to wait till Nibiru is close enough to us that we could use our rocket-fueled rockets to go there.
It is to say that they're not using this folding of space that I was listening to back in 1968 or Warp Factor 2.
I don't know what they're going to do.
Well, I mean, what about plasma technology?
What about free energy?
Are you aware of this stuff?
A bit.
Just a bit.
The fact that I'm looking at putting solar power on my house.
There are other forms of free energy.
And unfortunately, our whole society is based upon the almighty dollar.
And unfortunately, they've managed to keep it under wraps.
India right now, as I understand, are trying to come forward with a free energy source, machine, and system.
So we are at this point of soft disclosure.
Things are coming out.
And the truth will set us free.
Absolutely.
You mentioned that you were in a meeting with Wernher von Braun.
Did you meet Nazis when you were working, or so-called ex-Nazis, when you were working in NASA? Well, we certainly knew that they had been part of.
One of my dearest friends who passed away was named Bill Greider.
He was part of the team at White Sands and all that, where they tested the V-2 rockets that were captured during World War II and worked directly with the paperclip Nazis.
Nothing was ever said publicly that, oh, von Braun, you were one of the Nazis or what have you.
No, he was highly revered and acknowledged as the man with the knowledge to get us to the moon, because we screwed up and blew up quite a few attempted launches before we said, okay, let's bring in the experts.
And they brought in von Braun, and he brought in his team.
So...
Okay, but did you have a, you know, some people say that von Braun really was a Nazi, and other people say he was just forced to act like a Nazi, and that he, you know, swore off all that when he left Germany.
What do you think?
I think von Braun was a scientist.
He was an engineer.
He was so far ahead of everybody else, and the fact that He was being controlled by their government to produce what they need.
We have the same thing in America right now.
We have scientists that are, to make their almighty dollar, are creating and designing weapons of mass destruction or what have you.
And I doubt that it's any different than von Braun was there.
And the fact that he was signed up as one of the SS... It's not a surprise to me, but I've never heard or read anything where he was out there and lining up people and shooting them in the head just for the fun of it.
He was out there designing the U-2 and the V-2 and the buzz bombs and things which were used for horror, but it's the only way he could get the funding and the money to advanced technology where we could have spacecraft and do our adventures into space.
Okay, well, personally, I think rocket technology is very old-fashioned, and I'm actually shocked that Elon Musk is even bothering with it when we have free energy inventors actually all over the planet right now coming up with all kinds of technology that would work much better.
It appears that perhaps he's being coerced into continuing to use rocket technology that's really outmoded.
Someone is asking, rocket propulsion, how does it work in zero gravity?
The rocket propulsion in zero gravity, you have to use a means to accelerate, to create the gravity force, to cause the fuel to go to where the pumps are so the pumps can pump it into the ignition chambers.
So it was something we had to deal with, like when we're getting ready to do a re-burn on the backside of the moon, one of the biggest concerns they had.
The thrusters, reaction control thrusters, were small enough that we could use those to get the acceleration we need to get the fuel to be at the pumps, to be able to cause the larger ignition of the larger engines.
So it was all worked out.
Okay, let's see, have you, someone is asking about 1991 near-Earth object discovered that's supposed to, it's called 1991 VG. Have you heard of that?
It's supposed to appear in Earth's orbit in 2016.
Have you heard of that?
No, I try to keep up with as much of that stuff as I can, but I've been so darn busy with the team and working on the books that I haven't kept up with that.
But we do have anomalies, and I've even forgotten what the one that claimed this, almost call it, prehistoric spacecraft still orbiting the Earth.
I forgot what the name of that one was.
Black what?
Black Knight.
Black Knight, yeah, Black Knight.
So there are still lots of information, a lot of things out there that we're being kept secret from all of us who can't deal with it.
Well, I have a contact who tells me that Black Knight, that actually it's created by the British and that there are three of them, that a lot of it is old-fashioned technology on purpose so that the artificial intelligence can't hack into it.
A lot of ETs use artificial intelligence.
Are you aware of the notion and the threat of artificial intelligence?
Okay, that's a little different than what I thought you were going to ask.
Am I aware of the threat of artificial intelligence?
Yes.
A little bit, a little bit.
And of course, Hollywood's laid a lot of things on, you know, getting so much artificial intelligence that they decide that we humans need to be done away with because we're not as perfect as artificial intelligence.
But I've not been involved in it, just read as much as the average person has on that, that's all.
Okay.
All right.
Well, I know I've kept you for quite a while here, and it's been fascinating talking to you.
Is there anything you'd like to say in general to wrap up for yourself?
Any comments that you'd like to put out there?
Well, the only thing is, of course, that they want to find out exactly what I've been keeping all these years, I can go to KenJohnstonMedia.com, or if they want to even get in touch with me by emails, it's KenJohnstonSenior.com.
At gmail.com.
And so I'll try to answer the email that I get on that.
People out there who have personal experiences such as like I've had, they may have some of the information like Richard Hogan found me by that.
I'm saying, you've got to get out there and get it made public because anything happens to you or when you pass away, it's going to be gone and we will lose that information that we need.
So thank you very much for having me on your program.
I've enjoyed it.
You've asked a whole lot of interesting different questions that I'm used to.
Alright, well thank you so much for coming on the show and thanks everyone again for listening.
It's been a lot of fun and I hope we can do it again sometime.
I hope so.
Thank you very much.
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