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Sept. 14, 2011 - Project Camelot
01:59:46
09/14/2011 Joseph Methany.
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Time Text
There is a Jaguar of Hazardor
This is Perry Cassidy, Project Hamelot, Whistleblower Radio.
And I'm very happy to be here tonight.
We have Joseph Matheny standing by to join us, and he is a very interesting individual.
Actually, a wonderful writer, an incredible mind, and an explorer in all kinds of ways of the universe.
And I have to say that I'm going to read some of your description, Joseph, of who you are, just for the listeners.
Because I think it's quite clever, and I think it covers a lot of the bases, and better than I could do, even.
And I've known you for quite a number of years.
But before that, I just want to make a few quick announcements.
First of all, I want to make people aware that we do have an Awake and Aware 2011 conference coming up on September 23rd, 24th, and 25th, and that is in Irvine, California, which is in the greater LA area.
Best deal we could get was down there at the Irvine Hilton, so that's where it's being held, and we have A new trailer that has just been released, actually two of them, so we've got two filmmakers out there who've made, you know, teasers, trailers, whatever you want to call them, for the speakers of the event.
That includes myself and Bill Ryan, David Wilcock, Nassim Haraman, Bob Dean, Marsha Shafer, Miriam Delicato, Sean David Morton, Duncan O'Finnian.
Gosh, who am I forgetting?
I know there's someone.
Anyway, and I just want to say that it's going to be an incredible event.
Right now, if you go to the awakeandaware2011.com, you can also see that we've revamped the website.
And enlarged it for the live stream portion.
So that portion of the event is going to allow you to either live stream if you can't make it out to the event, which we absolutely advise and prefer.
But if you can't make it out there, then you can live stream it on a daily basis.
And we encourage you to do so straight to your desktop.
Other than that we're also trying to do kind of a new approach which is sort of a live aid for Awake and Aware and it's that kind of a worldwide global grassroots event that we're trying to put on which means that we're encouraging organizers to come forward.
That means you could have 10 people in your neighborhood come to your house if you have a nice size screen like widescreen TV or whatever or if you have a corner bar business or
Any kind of small auditorium or even a large auditorium and you want to do a an event Let's say in Paris, Rome, France, you know, wherever Paris, Rome, France or Madrid or London or Anywhere worldwide and you want to allow people to get in for half price and make some money yourself if you're an entrepreneur this is a great opportunity to make a little money on the side and also support an incredible cause and
Which is the Project Camelot cause which allows us to go out and make more videos and travel the world and do more interviews and also get the information out to you.
Also help us to further develop our websites which we would love to do.
And we have a team working for Project Camelot at this time that includes just basically two people that work really really hard all the time and then we have a huge crew of people that work part-time for us, and we'd love to be able to pay these people but simply can't do so.
So this event is also geared to hopefully raise money to make that possible.
And, again, if you go to awakeandaware2011.com, you'll see all the information there.
You'll see the links for live streaming, the links for creating an event in your city, and we just want to encourage you to join us and try to make this whole thing a success.
It's going to be a wild and crazy event.
We've got a lot of incredible thinkers and Graham Hancock, a person I forgot, who's one The premier ancient archaeologist who is now investigating the areas of consciousness, a lot like Terence McKenna, if you will, and he's going to be speaking.
We've got Nassim Harriman, who's also really a groundbreaking physicist exploring the what we call the information field, what he calls I'm not sure that's something, the resonance field I guess he calls it.
So this is going to be wonderful and we're going to have also whistleblowers behind the scenes that will be getting in free, some of whom are very well-known Camelot whistleblowers and I think it would be a lot of fun for you guys to meet these people in person.
They'll be roving around, they'll be open to conversation.
Some of them simply can't go on stage but they can talk pretty frankly behind the scenes.
So that's pretty much my spiel.
And so now to get to my guest, Joseph Matheny.
And Joseph is a, wow, what do I say?
He's an executive producer and originator of the Santa Barbara International Film Festival podcast.
As well as the Los Angeles Film Festival podcast.
He is responsible for a cult time travel novel called Ong's Hat.
He's been involved in creating alternate reality games, what he calls transmedia type projects since the mid 80s.
He is a super programmer.
I think you can even call him someone who can create artificial intelligence.
I don't know if that would be going too far, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I do believe he has those skills.
He's also an expert on the occult, I have to say, and apparently he's also a movie maker, and I know he has a couple things in the pipeline.
He and I have also tried to work on Getting a few things out there, some projects to Hollywood and so on.
And let's see, he says that he is a hyper medium who believes that Occam's razor is not disposable.
Joseph Matheny is a curator, contributor and producer of seditious sites like Grey Lodge, who sponsored Foolish People's production of Dead Language and Illiterati.
Joseph seems to be a verb.
Joseph Matheny is an internet litterbug, leaving flotsam and jetsam all over, like Ong's hat and El Centro, hopefully acting like a message in a bottle.
If you read it, you get infected, like one does when we get into mimes, I believe, and so on.
So, at any rate, Joseph Matheny, welcome.
Thank you.
I'm glad to be here.
Really, it's great to have you.
I am very curious.
What are you doing nowadays?
And then I'm gonna, I'm gonna sort of go back down memory lane and kind of ask you to talk about some of the past.
I guess most recently what I'm doing is I'm working on the, this will be probably the first time that I publicly announced this, but I'm working on the sequel to Onset.
Wow, incredible.
Okay, anyone who hasn't read Ong's Hat, I highly recommend it.
I think it's the way I found you, but I know I also got in touch with you through Peter Moon, who is the publisher of the Montauk books, and so we kind of got connected that way, but I actually remember you from Ong's Hat most of all.
And that's just an incredible story, and I think you're way ahead of your time, I have to say, in writing that.
Yeah, and I think that most recently what just happened is there was a professor of religion and mythology from University of California, Santa Barbara, Who, strangely enough, I've never met, even though I lived in Santa Barbara while he was writing this book.
He just put out a book on University Press, Mississippi University Press, that basically chronicles what I was doing with the methodology around the distribution of the incunabula-slash-ongsat story.
And it's being used as a textbook now, so I've been contacted by several people that, you know, professors who want me to come You know, be a guest lecturer at their literature class or at their mythology and religion classes, so it's pretty interesting.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, fascinating stuff going on.
Let me say for people, because this is quite a big Camelot audience, and I can tell the Camelot audience that he, in a certain sense, he posits a second Earth.
And his time travelers actually go to that second earth.
That's part of the mystery of it.
But the writing is also so much fun.
Just to read it is really, I don't know, it's just a pleasure.
So the fact that you're writing another one, that's very cool.
I can talk about, you know, why I'm doing what I'm doing and why I did it the way I did it.
The story here, and I don't tell this very often because it kind of punctures the bubble of the game, but the story here is that there were some real, honest-to-gosh documents that were left in the rack at the Lebanon State Forest, which is at the, you know, it's the part of New Jersey where Ong's Hat is, or used to be.
And somebody left some documents, you know, in the The travel brochure section, they have like a little roundabout kind of thing where they have all the different brochures.
And somebody left a document there that was the now known as the Ong's Hat color brochure.
And I verified this by talking to the ranger at the ranger station.
And she said, yes, in the 70s, somebody kept putting these into the turnstile.
And that intrigued me because I came across them in California.
Through a physicist friend of mine, Nick Herbert, which you may or may not have heard of, but he was a quantum physicist that used to work at Lawrence Livermore, who dropped out of physics because he, well he didn't drop out of physics, he dropped out of institutional physics, and left Livermore and became an independent researcher because some of the things he was looking at, like time travel, dimensional travel, and some other things were frowned upon by the institution that he shouldn't be wasting his time on such things.
This was the 60s, you know, they were still wearing pocket protectors back then.
And he passed it on to me because he knew that I would be interested in it, mainly because if you look at the catalog, or actually it's a series of short stories disguised as a catalog, most of the books that are identifiable and easy to get, or even hard to get, were on my bookshelf.
And he said, I think this is right up your alley.
So he gave that to me, and I started to research the origin of the documents.
A couple of years later, what I discovered was there was a group of physicists working at Princeton who did actually used to go out to the forest, to Ong's Hat, to a place called the Rotting Gun Club, which is not there anymore.
And hang out off-campus.
This was during World War II, during the Manhattan Project era, probably during the Philadelphia Experiment era, the Montauk Project era.
This was back when the United States suddenly found itself in World War II, panicking, and throwing money at any project anybody would bring their way.
And pretty much the military and the military-industrial complex was given carte blanche.
Or what was to become the military-industrial complex was just given carte blanche and all these physicists and professors and anybody who would show up basically at one of these major institutions like Princeton were tasked with coming up with any kind of weapon, any kind of defense, any kind of cryptography, any kind of anything that would help them defeat the Germans and the Japanese in World War II.
I think that, I don't know for sure, but I suspect That this is where black budget projects like the Philadelphia Experiment were funded, and probably did something occurred.
I don't know what, because I wasn't there, and I, you know, we all have heard 40 different stories.
But it doesn't surprise me that something like that would be attempted.
So, probably it was.
At the same time that these physicists were doing this, these are bright guys.
A lot of them fairly liberal.
They started going off campus to talk about the things that they wanted to talk about.
Once again, These waste of time projects, dimensional travel, time travel, things like that, which the military would have seen at that time, at least, no, they would have had no interest in it if it didn't have a practical, pragmatic, immediate application to war.
So they did used to go and I found documentation where Tukey was talking about this.
They would go off and do all these speculative scientific inquiries off campus in Ong's Hat.
And in fact, he did say in one interview, which you can find by googling John Tukey, T-U-K-E-Y, Ong's hat.
And in fact, I think I've got it on the inkandnobula.org site, but he does say that they did actually come up with coded stories about Things that they were doing on campus because they couldn't talk about it because that would be a breach of national security and they would probably end up in prison and during wartime you could end up in front of a firing squad.
But they were putting out coded messages under this fake professor's name that they came up with, Pondicherry, which is one of the names that's implicated in the documents that were showing up in the turnstile at the Lebanon State Forest Ranger Station.
So this much I know, right?
Okay, so I know this.
So I get very interested in this material.
I do a couple follow-up stories that get attached to it as what some people have now called the canon, the original four pieces.
And I start to get a lot of contact from a lot of people in the UFO arena, a lot of people in the alternative engineering arena that now hang out in places like Guys who are doing anti-gravity experiments in their garage and, you know, all kinds of things like that.
Cool people, very cool people.
Definitely my type of people.
And I sit down and look at this material and I put it on the internet and I begin to realize that there's a generation that's coming up at that time, this was the 90s, that don't speak the same language as my generation, which, you know, I'm a generation behind, so I'm a literary generation.
My generation is definitely a product of Gutenberg and television.
But mostly because I'm a big, strong reader, you know, I'm more Gutenberg, but a lot of people from my generation are fairly, you know, evenly divided between television and books.
And then it became mostly television, and now the language is gaming, video gaming.
And that's the language that, you know, the youth of today uses to tell their stories, and it's the language that they understand a story told in.
If you try to set somebody in their 20s down today and make them read a thousand-page book, it's not going to happen.
However, if you put it into bite-sized pieces and you make it a puzzle or a game that they can work their way through, meaning that it's interactive, you'll hold their attention long enough that you can walk them through the contents of a thousand-page book.
So what I do is kind of put this into a game format.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's quite a great summation, sort of an overview of various generations, how they approach media and also how they sort of tell their stories, as you put it.
But at this moment, I wonder if you can also address how you went from collecting those documents to actually coming up with the idea to write Ong's Hat.
Um, well, it's, it's like a, you know, the story was very intriguing and I noticed that when I, when I would tell the story around coffee tables and, you know, and places like that, um... Okay, we're about to... Okay.
Yeah, we're about to go to a commercial.
We'll be right back and hopefully can answer my question at that time.
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Okay, let's do your copy of the Amalot with Laura Rick Doe.
And we are talking to Joseph Matheny, time traveler par excellence.
Joseph, are you there?
I'm here.
Okay, great.
We're all time travelers, right?
We're all moving through the time stream together.
Yeah, absolutely I would agree with you there But I think in writing up writing on his hat obviously you kind of had a head start on some of them So why don't you talk about?
Right before the break we were talking about how you ended up writing actually the book Yeah, I mean one of the biggest influences in putting the book together the way I did it Was obviously my interest in multimedia because I come from a computer programming background I was involved in The early days of CD-ROM technology.
I was entranced by games like Myst, which a lot of people probably don't remember, but there was a game that came out, one of the very first non-warfare games that came out, came out on the Mac.
It was called Myst, M-Y-S-T, and it really had to do with going around this abandoned island and solving puzzles and turning levers and, you know, it really had to do with brain power, not to do with running around with a gun and shooting everything that moved.
And that influenced me as well as what the story I told earlier about John Tukey talking about taking these truths that were happening in Princeton and bottling up, you know, kind of making them an encrypted message in a bottle for those out there that could decrypt it and understand it.
And I kind of put that all together in my head and said, well, you know, there's this thing happening now at the time, the bulletin board systems, which eventually became the Internet.
And I was thinking about media and the way it was, you know, the way it was becoming more interactive and the way it was becoming more distributed and more immediate, and started to put a plan together, like, let's put this together into a book format, but let's not just do a book and print it, because I waited to the very last to do that.
Rather, what I did is I used the internet, text, then hypertext, then eventually PDF as a, you know, an interactive e-book,
to put this information out so that it would be engaging so that it wasn't just the thing that you read and said this is the final statement but rather it had hooks in it of interactivity so that if you wanted to go off and do your own lines of research and come back you know and talk about what you had discovered that that appealed to me more because you know books are wonderful and I own way too many of them but the thing about books is that they're first of all they're static
The information is, you know, you can't reach out to everybody's house in America and in the world and update the information if the information you put on a book suddenly becomes, you know, refuted or if you come to a new conclusion.
And on the Internet and in Baltimore systems, you could do that.
That appealed to me.
And the other thing about books as a general structure from an academic standpoint, Is that most books follow the methodology of thesis-antithesis-synthesis, which says that, you know, here's the thesis, here's the antithesis, and therefore now let me make the synthesis for you.
I rather preferred putting out thesis and antithesis and letting the audience or the people who are making a connection with this information come to their own synthesis so that the book wasn't really a book in the traditional sense, it was more of a book where everybody could have their own opinion, everybody could have their own conclusion.
Well, yeah.
I mean, in many ways, it's also charting the game, sort of the game horizon, in advance several years, right?
Wouldn't you say?
Yeah, that's one of the things that Michael Kinsella points out in this book that I was talking about that he wrote.
And a couple other people, like Dave Cebulski, pointed out in the first history book that was written on alternative reality games, that I did I mean, I'm the world's worst at blowing my own horn, but I guess I did kind of precede what is now called ARG and what and now more popularly in Hollywood is called transmedia.
But yeah, that seems to be the new buzzword.
Tomorrow, there'll be another one.
Don't worry.
But yeah, and unfortunately, what's happened with Hollywood is that they overlooked what I was trying to say with this, which is, There's no longer just a single medium.
There's a media scape out there.
There's television, there's movies, there's video games, there's books, there's text messaging, there's Twitter.
You know, there's all these things and you can actually write the story across all those mediums instead of just writing in a single medium.
And some people have pointed out that I was one of the first to really think about that and to apply it.
And so, unfortunately, what's happened in Hollywood is, and this is what always happens, they've picked up on the whole transmedia thing, and to them, transmedia is really, how do I put out a multimedia commercial for my movie?
That's really what it's boiled down to for them, and that's how they think.
So, there's a few people out there who are experimenting with this cross-medium platform as a medium, in and of itself, kind of a meta-medium.
But there's not very many people that are experimenting with it as a new literary format, and that was my intention, is let's move forward into a new literary format that really encompasses all the different media under kind of a meta banner of media.
Absolutely.
Well, I think one of the things, the idea that, I like that idea that, you know, thesis, antithesis, antithesis is like that combination.
Gurdjieff talked about that and creating the synthesis.
This is the basic paradigm.
One of the things that Camelot is also done and is doing is also presenting those kinds of things.
In other words, we put information out there and allow the people to draw their own conclusions.
And I really think that that's the way to go.
So, you know, so I applaud your efforts in that direction.
Well, you know, one of the other things that I recognized from my own experience was that when I was given the opportunity to draw my own synthesis, I had what I called the aha moment, which...
was a stronger imprint of realizing something for myself.
It was a deeper organic connection than if somebody told me.
If they said, here's A, here's B, now here's C.
And I could see somebody telling me that, and I could say, cerebrally and intellectually, I get that.
But it wasn't that boom shanker that you get when you're sitting there reading something, and all of a sudden you draw that third mind conclusion all on your own, and you feel like lightning hits you.
And people like Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson, Wilson and more recently people like Antoine Arlie, you know, have done work in the Eighth Circuit model of the brain and the mind and have pointed out that this is a very important part of human existence is making that conclusion or that synthesis yourself because then what you do is you imprint have done work in the Eighth Circuit model of the brain and the mind and You have a body knowledge of it.
And that's a deeper knowledge than just having a cerebral knowledge of something.
So that was the other intention of putting these things together this way so that people would have their own aha moment.
And everybody will have their own different aha moment.
And each one of those will be as legitimate as the next person's.
Yes.
Well, I think it's also it's part of the fun of being alive is to put the picture together yourself.
And so it is great, though, to have a website or a book Put the elements together in a package, you know, it doesn't matter in what kind of order, and then allow you to kind of build the picture.
Um, and and also come to those conclusions that resonate best with you.
I mean, I think I get I get that that's what you guys are trying to do with with Camelot.
So, you know, that's why I respect what you're doing, because I don't see that you're jamming a conclusion or an agenda down my throat.
I see that you're presenting information and leaving that open space for me to have my own aha moment.
Exactly.
And also to allow you to discern the truth out of what it's offered, because I think it's also when people try to come across as they have the truth, and only the truth, you know what I'm saying?
In other words, first of all, it's an absurdity, and second of all, it's very off-putting, and it's without sort of exception, probably, wrong, because
With everything, whether it be channeled material, you name it, there seem to be some gaps or flaws that a person who brings their own angle, their own way of looking at things, will be able to see right off the bat.
So it becomes a problem.
And I think it's more interesting to open the discussion than to close it down.
Very easily tracks back to an intention, you know, so if you look at this and you kind of step back and disengage from whatever emotional engagement that these people are usually trying to drag you into, you can say to yourself, okay, when somebody is telling me that they're presenting me an A and a B and they're leaving me to draw my own conclusion and they're okay with whatever conclusion I draw, then that person is not trying to exert any kind of control over me emotionally or otherwise.
Versus a person who is trying to cram an agenda down your throat, and they absolutely are didactic about the fact that you have to agree with them, or you're wrong, or you're the enemy.
And those are the people that, if you look at the intention there, it's pretty easy to deduce what that is.
It's control.
They're looking for control.
Yeah, I think that's very astute.
In other words, the control element of also a persuasion that involves sort of a heavy handed persuasion.
Yeah.
So, so yeah, I agree with all of that.
And, and to get back to Aum's hat, though, why is it or how is it that you came to the idea that they would be going off planet into this alternate Earth?
Well, um, If you look at some of the stuff that was happening around the time these documents emerged, which would have been the late 80s, early 90s, one of the novel things that was bumping around physics at the time was the Everett-Wheeler-Graham theory.
And the Everett-Wheeler-Graham theory was one of the first scientific proposals of a multiverse You know, view.
Obviously, there had been science fiction speculation about this, but it had always been poo-pooed as science fiction and fantasy.
But then you have these three very astute scientists, you know, with credentials up the wazoo, coming out and saying, no, actually, if you look at the way things are reacting on the quantum level, it seems to imply that there very well may be more than one universe.
And we don't know how many, but there may be, you know, they may be infinite.
And from that speculation and the equations that came out of that came all the way to today where you have people talking about string theory.
You know, that's never gone away.
That's become a stronger force in physics rather than a weaker force in physics, to make a physics joke.
But, you know, over time it's become, you know, pretty much accepted, whereas at the time when these documents first came out, it was a fairly new theory and still not fully accepted by the physics community.
And so I think the speculation around that had to do with, well, what if this is true?
What if there is a universe next door, and one next door to that, and one next door to that?
And what if the model really is that 64 universes over, there's a universe where everything is exactly like this, except John F. Kennedy didn't die.
Or, you know, Hitler was not defeated, or your grandmother married somebody else.
Or, you know, as the Ongsad documents say, what if there was a universe where everything was exactly like this one, except humans had never emerged?
What would that look like?
And would you want to go there?
I mean, if you're looking for a frontier, if you're a frontier type person, and I'm one of those people, one of the things that's missing on this planet right now is a frontier.
There is no place to go.
Anymore.
It used to be you could go to the, you know, North America, Canada, South America.
There were these places where you could go and you could homestead and you could be a frontier person.
And there's always been a certain type of personality that was attracted to the frontier.
If you look at the types of people that settled the western towns in the United States and ended up in places like San Francisco and Los Angeles and California and, you know, all these kind of places, they were usually people that didn't quite fit in to the status quo societies that were on the East Coast.
They needed something more.
They wanted something more.
And a lot of times they were just trying to escape persecution or they were trying to practice some sort of lifestyle that wasn't condoned inside of the, you know, inside of the Citadel that was already established.
That's absolutely right.
You know about Timothy Leary's, it's called Future, it's a book I was reading, Future something, anyway, and he talks about how the further west you go, the more radical, the newer sort of the people, the mental states,
Their openness to change, their openness to innovation is much greater, and that the furthest west you can go, I believe, if you, you know, assuming, you know, knowing the planet is a circle, then is the west coast of California.
Yeah, I mean, this is where everybody kind of landed and said, well, if we cross the ocean, we're starting over.
We're going back to the origin point, basically, and so, but if you look at the people that came west from England and settled, you know, the United States, you know, on the East Coast, those people were looking, I mean, you know, they were Puritans and they were Christians and all these kind of things, but at the time, they were pretty radical.
Considering that, you know, they were up against things like the established Catholic Church and the Church of England and the government, the monarchy of England.
They were trying to come over and get away from that so they could start something new.
And Timothy Leary, you know, famously said something that I agree with is, you can't start a new thing in an old place.
So, looking at all that and saying, where is the new frontier?
There was a time in the 60s and 70s and even the 80s where we thought it was going to be space.
But, I think we've all come to the conclusion that that could be pretty far off, farther off than we thought it would be.
Okay, well, uh, actually I'm not so sure about that, but, uh, we can definitely go down that road if you'd like.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think at least for the majority of us, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, well, yes.
actually whether or not we are able to go off into space is a projection for what we like.
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There must be some kind of way out of here.
Say that you're back to the thief.
There's too much confusion.
Project Hancock, Whistleblower Radio.
We're talking to Joseph Matheny this evening, all about Ong's Hat, time travel, and other mysterious ways of getting around the universe.
Just before the break, Joseph, we were talking about whether or not the space was a frontier, and I think that that's actually a really interesting question, and something that we could perhaps discuss.
But I'm not sure, you know, because in talking about Ong's Hat, you're also talking about writing a new book, and I'm wondering what direction you want to go.
If going into alternative worlds was where you went last time, are you going to further go in that direction?
Is exploration of space, or even dimensions, something that you're looking into?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, just to clarify what I was talking about with space travel, I grew up in the 60s, and so I was a child of the moonwalks.
And my heroes were astronauts, Robert Goddard, and test pilots.
Those were my heroes growing up.
I actually bought this whole story that I was going to be able to live on a space station, visit Mars, etc.
You know, this is the story we were, as kids growing up in the 60s, we were sold that story.
We used to drink Tang and eat carnation breakfast sticks because it's what the astronauts had.
And that was, you know, kind of a lifestyle and a story that SyFy sold us.
It was one that Even John F. Kennedy sold us.
We're going to go into space.
We're going to do this thing.
And by the time the late 80s rolled around, it became evident to a lot of us who had thought that we were going to have our jet pack, to use a euphemism, that that wasn't going to happen, possibly not in our lifetime.
Not for the majority of us, at least.
And so we began to think of other things, other places where there were frontiers.
Inner space is a frontier.
Um, and if these dimensions are accessible, there's a new frontier right there.
So, that's why I started to speculate about going to alternative dimensions and parallel universes as You know, kind of something similar to what we were talking about in the 60s and 70s with going to outer space.
I mean, if you remember, most of the sci-fi books that came out in that era had to do with space colonization and space exploration.
So, since that had kind of been taken away from us as a vision, I was trying to come up with a new vision for where are these people that we were just talking about?
There are these people that are frontier-type people.
I've clearly identified myself as one of them.
We can't go west anymore.
We can't, at least right now, I can't go, I can't tomorrow go buy a ticket and go to outer space.
What could I do?
Sure, absolutely.
Well, and I know that you, you know, we've actually had a project that was based on the Montauk project, and I know you've gone down that rabbit hole quite a bit.
Yeah, I came out the other end, I think.
Okay.
And, you know, I don't know if you want to talk about any of that, but, you know, I mean, and you have an interesting, I don't know, your family is a Freemason lineage, is that correct?
Yeah, my family actually is French royalty.
Okay.
And yeah, we do have a tradition of Freemasonry and Templarism in the family.
Right.
But in a sense, sort of the best sense of those concepts.
And maybe you can talk about that a little bit, because I was always interested in your take on that.
I think like anything else, there's different factions, you know, of just about everything.
No matter what it is, there's a million factions.
If it's around long enough, there's a million and one factions.
I mean, a good example of that is the UFO community.
Can you find two people in the UFO community that can agree on anything?
Yet there's this broad umbrella that the mainstream will throw over them as you're part of that UFO community, when in fact, community Applied to that scenario is probably a stretch at best.
And I think that the Templar and Freemason traditions are much like that.
And I, you know, I did become involved with the Freemason tradition, which is represented by Falcon Press.
That was what's called speculative Freemasonry, and it's where I came from.
My family, you know, kind of comes out of that tradition, which is I would call it a benign form of Freemasonry.
I'm not part of a lodge, just so everybody knows, and I don't do the handshakes anymore, and I'm not part of it per se, but it is something that I grew up in, and it is something I spent my 20s and some of my 30s involved in.
And there are lodges out there, and there are groups out there that are clearly just trying to You know, come up with scenarios for for for humanity to live in peace on the planet.
And it doesn't have to do with forcing anybody to do anything.
And in fact, most of these speculative lodges I'm talking about are, you know, very, very, very ardently free speech and very, very ardently, you know, libertine.
I won't use libertarian because it's become a very charged word in politics.
And I don't even know that I agree with it anymore because of where it's gone.
But, you know, the ideas of live and let live and humanity being able to live not under the boot of a tyrant, but rather of their own free will.
Yeah, and you know, I know that you studied the cult and I know that you also, I don't know if you're still involved in it, but at one time you were looking into doing a movie about Jack Parsons, who was in a sense the founder of JPL.
Hello?
Okay, seemed to have lost the connection.
Hi.
Hey.
Okay, are we back on the air?
Maybe we are.
Sorry, we seem to have been disconnected.
Joseph, is that you?
Yeah, I'm here.
Great.
Okay, I'm going to assume we went back online here.
Interesting that we hit this topic.
And there you go.
The ghost of Jack.
So that project is still in development.
I got some really good guidance on the script from some people at Zoetrope, Coppola's film company.
I sent in a treatment and won this Amazing contest that allowed me to spend six weeks studying script writing with Coppola and some of the people.
Wow, that's awesome!
Yeah, and as the project, I used Ron and Jack.
So, lovely.
Yeah, they helped me develop it out.
And one of the things that they said, which I thought was actually encouraging, was, you understand that when you put this movie out, Scientology is going to jump on your head with both feet.
And I started laughing and I said, well, you know, free promotion, right?
And they thought that was great that I didn't back off and say, oh, no, Scientology is going to get me, you know, because that's what a lot of people do.
Well, I'd love the record to get set straight in terms of.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because one of the things is Scientology.
They do acknowledge that L. Ron Hubbard was involved with Jack Parsons.
What they say is that L. Ron Hubbard was working for the Naval Intelligence trying to ferret out Satanists that were involved in the military, and that's such a load of garbage that I feel like, you know, Jack needs to be vindicated.
I mean, you know, he wasn't a perfect person, but you can tell from reading the stuff about him and the things that he was up to and the things that he wrote that he was a genuine person and he was a kind-hearted person who got taken advantage of by, you know, a con man.
Um, and was bilked out of a lot of money and, you know, ran off with his wife and all kinds of stuff.
And I think that the record should be set straight as to what went on between those two.
So the focus of the movie is really, it's like my dinner with Andre with magic.
It just focuses on the Babylon working period of those two.
That's all it focuses on, which was a very kind of claustrophobic episode in both their lives.
And there wasn't a lot of interaction between anybody other than them and, you know, just them.
And they were around this house and doing this thing.
And I think that it was a brilliant dynamic that, you know, if done right, can really show the character of both people and also show Um, that there was this moment in history that is one of the most peculiar and oddball moments that probably have ever happened by two guys who went off and respectively did two things that became very big, you know, JPL and Scientology.
And in a lot of ways, they're almost the antithesis of each other, and they definitely are reflections of the men who created them, you know?
Yes.
Well, but then you have to also talk about Aleister Crowley and his contribution behind the scenes.
Yeah, I mean, I did some deep digging on that, and his contribution behind the scenes was fairly negligible.
I mean, one of the things that he was worried about was that they were going off and doing things without him.
Uh, so what they, what, you know, and one of his great comments was, I become fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these goats.
Yeah, I know.
Well, yes, I mean, it's kind of, you know the movie Reds?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I don't know whether your movie's going to have anything like that going on, but I know we're going to commercial, so we'll talk about when we come back.
Okay.
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No rules.
No taboo topics.
No fear of doom.
No taboo topics.
No fear of doom.
We are American Freedom Radio. American Freedom Radio. American
Freedom Radio.
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We're talking to Joseph Matheny.
Just before the break, we were talking about his proposed screenplay to make a movie about Jack Parsons, the originator of, really, JPL, and some fascinating things that went on between Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard.
Very interesting.
Time and history, I guess you might call it.
Joseph, so you're still involved in that.
What else have you got on your plate right now?
Well, I've got the new novel, which is taking up a lot of my time.
And I've got, well, oddly enough, when Mike Kinsella put out the textbook, there were some things that he left out.
And this is not a criticism at all.
I talked to him about it and I said, There's some things you left out, but clearly you couldn't have known because you weren't behind the curtain on this.
I'd like to put out a supplement, and you can include that with the book if you would like, but I'd like to put out a supplement so that, you know, there's some things that get included.
So, he actually liked that idea, so his publisher has agreed to include that when I'm done writing it, and I originally thought it was going to be about a 20-page paper, Then that became a 50 page pamphlet and now I think it's going to be a 200 page book.
Yeah, because you know, you just can't, you get into these things and you start dredging up the memories and going through the documentation.
You're like, oh, I can't leave this out and I can't leave that out.
And so, you know, everybody's been after me for years to write the blow by blow behind the scenes details of what it was like to run a universe this big, you know, an online universe.
And I've decided that I just need to do it.
Probably the only reason that I've been kicking back on that is that I've always had the opinion that people that write look-back books, as I call them, are usually in the autumn of their years.
I don't want to admit that I'm in the autumn of my years yet.
But wait a minute here.
So you're talking about the Universe of Ong's Hat?
Are you talking about that in Cunebula?
Yeah, I'm talking about the whole project as it was, you know, the whole online world that was built around, you know, the concept of the book and the concept of the story.
And if you read Michael Kinsella's book, he did a really good, really good job of somebody who Apparently he was one of the players.
I didn't know him when he was playing, but he was a player when he was an undergrad, and ended up writing a paper about this as his PhD dissertation, and then a publisher saw the paper and said, expand this into a book, and we'd like to make it into a textbook.
I read that, and I thought he did a great job, but then, like I said, there were some Things that he didn't know that were going on behind the scenes, and so I proposed to him to write a paper, which then became a pamphlet, which has now become a book.
So, there you go.
Okay, and I just want to tell people that you should go to incunabula.org, and that's spelled I-N-C-U-N-A-B-U-L-A dot org, and check out the universe of Ong's hat, really.
Yeah, it's what's left of the universe.
At the height of the thing in around 2000, 2001, there were a couple hundred websites and I mean, this thing was, you know, massive.
And it was basically an online role-playing game without really being a role-playing game.
I didn't ask anybody to play a role.
I just basically said, you know, sign up and be a researcher and share on the forums and different places where that we had made available for them.
You know, your theories, track down some of the links, tell us what you find.
Are any of these people real?
What can you find about them?
You know, so it was like I said, it's what became first was called collective detective and then became alternate reality game.
It's where people get together and, and solve these, these grand mystery games online together.
And it was one of the, it was actually probably the first one, but, um, that, that's kind of why I call it the universe.
Cause it was like this massive thing that took all my time to manage.
Um, and so, you know, people have wanted me to write a behind the scenes, what was it like to manage this thing?
And so I decided to do it.
Um, Okay, but I want to ask you about a couple things.
John Titor.
John Titor.
And also whether you're not... I don't know if his name is... Is it John Anderson?
He's a... He had a time travel... David Anderson.
I'm sorry?
David Anderson.
That's right, David Anderson.
And what you know about David Anderson, because he actually has a website out there and now he has a Facebook page of all things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's speaking at a conference that I'm going to be speaking at.
Called the Pythagoras Conference in December.
That's Sandra, right?
Putting that on?
Yeah, that's right.
Has she asked you to speak?
She might as well.
I was supposed to be on her show a couple weeks ago and then they had a massive fail at Block Talk Radio the night we were supposed to do it and then we're going to reschedule at some point.
Okay, so what I wanted to do was ask you about, I guess, first let's talk about David Anderson and what you know about him because I know some things from Peter Moon and I was always fascinated by him and so I'm real curious if you knew some of the background of that.
Yeah, I mean, I know of David through Peter as well, and I also have my own personal research I've done into what David is talking about and some of the stuff that he's doing.
At some point, I'm probably going to meet and talk to him, but as far as I can tell, it's interesting what he's proposing.
It's interesting the claims he has made for what he has done.
I don't think it's outside of the realm of the possible, but I haven't seen proof of any of it.
I do know that even though none of us have seen proof to be able to decide pro or con on this, there are some people in the UFO community that have some pretty big names, and I'm not going to throw them out there, but I've seen some online discussions of David's claims, and all I could really get out of the discussion was a bunch of ad hominem bashing.
He couldn't possibly have done this, because my equations don't show that!
And you know, this goes on in the scientific field, too.
It's just as snarky as the UFO field.
But I have not seen anybody come up with any kind of real reasons why it couldn't be done.
David's not making a grandiose claim of sending a human being backwards or forward in time.
What he's claiming is he's able to generate a plasma field around a plant that slows down its growth pattern.
That's not a giant claim.
However, if it's real and true, it's a game changer.
It's the first real evidence of any kind of time manipulation that we have.
Well, I take that back.
There are some at the particle level that are going on, yeah.
Well, the Russians, you know, we actually went to Russia and interviewed Valerie Uvarov and also, gosh, now the name escapes me, another scientist who was actually involved in a time travel experiment on the governmental level.
Of course, in Russia you can't kind of avoid that, right?
But I say what they were involved in was what had to do with slowing down time.
Yeah, I mean, there's probably stuff that's going on at the governmental level here, too, but we're never, well, we may know about it in the future, but we don't know about it right now.
So, what I'm saying that we've ever seen or that we know about, I'm saying that, you know, that has actually made the public, you know, the scientists made public knowledge.
You know, God knows what's going on in the past.
I mean, There's a lot of speculation.
Is the Montauk Project just a bunch of, you know, fantasy that came out of the head of Preston Nichols and Al Belick?
But, you know, quite frankly, I've been in the underground of Montauk.
I went there, somehow got on the base and got in the underground and I shot video footage of it.
Peter Moon has it.
We're going to put it out as a documentary fairly soon.
But I've been all the way down.
In that underground, so there are parts of it that were caved in, parts of it that were flooded, but I was able to get pretty far down there.
There were evidence of very large electronic equipment that was down there.
There was evidence of explosions, you know, so something went on there.
Something very strange went on there.
I couldn't tell you what it was, but, because I'm there, you know, years and years later, but something went on there.
I've got video document evidence that something went on.
So, you know, there's Legends and rumors and myths and all these things, you know, eventually track back to something that was real.
And it's just like the game of telephone that, you know, you tell somebody something and they whisper it in somebody's ear and they whisper it and it goes around the room.
And by the time it comes back to the person that originated it, it vaguely resembles what they started saying.
I think that myths work like that and rumors work like that and things like the Montauk Project and the Philadelphia Experiment and Ong's Hat are modern examples of American myth.
So I'm not saying that they're completely false and I'm not saying they're completely true but there are elements of truth embedded in there and we have to figure out a way to decipher the message in the bottle and figure out what parts are true and what parts are not true.
So I say that because You know, a lot of the speculation around what David Anderson is doing, he's been fairly tight-lipped about what he's doing.
He doesn't, he doesn't publicly say what his methodology is, he doesn't say exactly what his equipment is, he doesn't, you know, he doesn't spell it out.
And I think he's probably got a good reason to be paranoid because somebody would grab this, the government would grab it, you know, a lot of people would grab this, but at some point he's gonna have to make a public demonstration and at that point we can all decide if this is, you know, real or if it's I mean, you know, it's like there's people that have claimed that they've developed fusion and then, you know, does it stand up under scrutiny is the question and, you know, that's what I want to see.
Well, okay, but David Anderson is also, his name was no accident that he was the name of the star, you know, the lead character of the Matrix.
I, you know, I don't doubt it.
I don't doubt it.
I know people, because I'm from Chicago originally, I know people that know the Warshawski brothers, who are the guys that wrote that movie.
Yeah.
And they did admit to my friend that the Montauk Project, Ongsat, Philadelphia Experiment, and a couple other things were big influences in what they wrote.
There you go.
And I have to say that also, David Anderson, according to when I was sort of in that loop and party to the story of David Anderson with Peter Moon and so on, he actually worked for the government, he disappeared for a substantial amount of time, and then he resurfaced.
And what happened during that time, I don't know.
And I don't know if Peter Moon knows.
I don't know.
I don't know if you know.
Peter knows.
I think he went to Transylvania.
Didn't know where David went or somewhere like that.
No, no, I'm serious.
I'm not kidding.
He went he went somewhere in Eastern Europe.
And I think that I think a lot of what Peter's doing now with, you know, the stuff that he's doing in Eastern Europe, Hello?
is I think a direct result of the fact that he was over there visiting David and got involved with a lot of people and the stuff that's going on over there.
There are some strange things going on over there.
And in fact, I've seen a movie that was sent to me of David Anderson presenting at a time travel conference.
Hello?
Oh, no.
Oh, great.
Okay.
So are you there, Joseph?
Oh, shoot.
Okay.
Well, I guess I'm live, so let me just say that we were dropped off the air just as we were talking about a movie that Joseph Matheny had seen, in which, let's see, David Anderson was addressing... Are you there, Joseph?
Did we get you?
No?
Okay, we're having... I'm here.
I'm here.
Oh, wonderful.
Okay.
So, as we were interrupted...
You know, this happens to me every time!
I swear, every time I'm doing a radio show and I get to the juicy stuff, boom!
Yeah, exactly.
It's just too much fun.
But at this moment, we were talking about David Anderson, and you were watching a movie in which he was presenting what?
He was presenting at a time travel conference in Eastern Europe, and I apologize, it was a while ago, and I don't remember the country, but it was Yugoslavia or one of those places where he was presenting at a Time Travel Conference.
So, and Peter was there.
So, you know, there was a period of time where I was talking to Peter and he was sending me information about David.
David's here.
David's there.
You know, and he was bouncing around.
I think he was in Pakistan at one point.
He was bouncing around doing something.
And I don't know what around the world, but that's right.
You know, that's that's what I know.
And I know that he's back and I think he's in New Mexico now.
He's got instituted in Mexico.
Okay, great.
Well, at some point I want to interview him, so maybe you can get in touch with him and let him know that.
I did write to him on his Facebook page, but got no answer, so maybe he's just not... I'm going to have Peter on my show fairly soon, and one of the things I was going to ask him is if we could get David on the show, too, because I have a ton of questions I'd like to ask David Anderson.
Lovely.
I think he's an intriguing character.
I think that the technology that he proposes is feasible.
I'd like to see if he would be a little more transparent about what it is.
I understand if he might not want to, but then I'm going to push him on like, you know, dude, when is disclosure day?
I want to see this.
I want to be there.
I do.
You know, I'll buy a plane ticket and I'll be there.
I want to see it.
Hmm, okay.
Now I have a question in the chat that I kind of missed because we went on to another subject so I want to go back to it even though it's kind of going backwards here but I'm sure as a time traveler you won't mind.
Wasn't there a theory that the guy Wheeler who mysteriously died at the beginning of the year was related to Parsons?
I did hear the theory.
I don't know if it's true or not.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Okay.
Okay, fine.
So we did at least answer that question.
I meet people all the time that tell me that they're either related to Marjorie Cameron or Jack Parson.
I've had lunch about nine times in Pasadena with different people who have told me that.
They could all be right.
At some level, we're all related, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And now I'd like to go to the subject of John Titor.
Because he's a really fascinating subject as well and I did follow all the story about John Titor and I know that you had some special access there.
We're coming to a break and we'll pick this up on the other side of the break.
Okay.
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White bird in a golden cage on a winter's day in the rain.
White bird in a golden cage alone.
Okay, this is...
We're talking to Joseph Matheny.
So Joseph, we were just a bit before the break talking about John Titor and I was going to ask you what, you know, I know you had some involvement or some knowledge of him.
Do you have any idea what's going on with that story?
Because I had a researcher who wrote a book on John Titor and I don't know if he ever contacted you or not.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I heard the show, actually, that you did with him.
Oh, yeah.
Anonymous?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Actually, he's a nice guy, though.
Oh, I'm sorry, what?
He was a very nice guy.
Oh, yeah.
He seemed knowledgeable.
He had a good speaking voice.
What do I know about John Titor?
The $50 million question that everybody asks me.
I'll tell as much as I can without betraying any confidence about that.
What I can say publicly is that the person who was posting online as John Titor is somebody that I knew.
I don't really, I'm not in contact with him anymore, but there was a period of time where I was.
And the story that I got was Somewhat different than the public story.
Not completely, but somewhat.
The story that I got was that this person was being projected into almost like a astral projection, or maybe some sort of device-driven projection, and was being possessed by a guy named John Titor from the future, who was doing everything he said he was here to do, but that he was doing it through a person whose body exists in this timeline.
OK, what about his his sort of future predictions?
Did you have you sort of paid attention to them and have you seen whether or not you think they're playing out?
Well, absolutely.
I paid attention to him because this person showed me some evidence, first of all, to to pretty much cement in my mind that this was the person who was posting on the forums under the name John Titor.
So, first I had to get that out of the way.
And once that was out of the way, I started to say, well, okay, what's the validity of this claim of, for lack of a better word, I guess, possession?
And so I started watching the predictions and looking into some of the things.
There's been some things that I think that are close, but, you know, this is like the Nostradamus game.
You can read a quatrain and it can mean almost anything, and therefore it means whatever you want it to mean.
I think there's some things that he said that I feel will probably come true.
We might be right on the cusp of some of the things that he was talking about with Civil War in America and some of these things.
I think that it looks like a lot of the things that he predicted are unfolding.
Does that mean that I completely believe that it was a person from the future named John Titor?
Not necessarily.
I don't say I don't believe it completely, but There's a lot of other explanations for that.
This could be a person who was picking up, you know, they could be picking up things, future things out of a lot of different areas.
I mean, if you look at the Princeton New Sphere project, there's, you know, absolute scientific proof that human beings on a, you know, a collective consciousness level are able to anticipate, you know, large events right before they happen.
I've had psychics tell me things that, you know, made me shiver in my socks they were so accurate, and these are people that did not know me.
So I, you know, I'm not completely somebody who discounts all these kind of things, but I am careful when I'm assessing, you know, whether or not this is something I'm going to, in quotes, believe.
I'm still, I think we all still need to watch And see a few more things unfold before we can say any of the John Titor predictions are absolutely true.
Okay.
Very good.
As far as what else you have been involved in, didn't you write Artificial Intelligence for a while?
Yeah, I did.
Okay.
Can you talk about that at all?
Yeah, I've done a couple.
I've done actually a lot of experiments with it.
I still do experiment with it.
The last thing that I wrote professionally I got some patents on and did some commercial work with, but it's the more experimental things that don't have commercial application that I really am more interested in, and that has to do with tapping into synchronicity, dealing with large volumes of knowledge, and seeing if we can find patterns inside of that knowledge.
Not stuff that I do publicly, and I don't really make that research public.
At one point, I did.
So many people out there are superstitious about artificial intelligence.
And so you have to be careful with what you say in public.
And if you really want to do serious research and not constantly be distracted trying to defend yourself against people that don't really know what they're talking about and really have kind of a superstitious view of what AI really is, then you just kind of do the work in private and you don't talk about it too much.
That's really where I'm at these days with my AI research.
I talk about it generally.
I don't talk about it specifically.
Generally, what I'm doing is I'm still carrying on the research that I've been doing with AI since the 90s, which is pattern recognition, third-mind information generation, those kind of things, where I'm trying to see if artificial intelligence can be a manager of data that can get us through to a level of contact To some sort of intelligence that would use it as a conduit.
Okay, well, along those lines, then, have you heard that there is an AI that is sort of operating this planet?
I don't know if it's artificial.
I think there's a natural intelligence that operates the planet, you know, and people have called it all kinds of things.
The guy in mind hypothesis and Lots and lots of things.
Okay, well what I'm talking about is actually more of an AI.
In other words, maybe some artificial intelligence, sort of central, I don't know, central computer whatever.
Well, I mean, there's a lot of evidence, and this is, again, this is another thing that used to be poo-pooed, but, you know, in the last couple of years, there's been some very serious proposals, with very serious science backing them up, that we're living in some sort of, for lack of a better word, something like the Matrix.
There is evidence of it.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's absolutely true, but it doesn't mean it's absolutely false.
There is evidence that points to the fact that we could be living in some sort of simulation.
So if that's what you're talking about, yes, I've heard of that.
I look into it on some level every day to see if I can find any kind of tangible evidence.
And the great thing about it, and the horrible thing about it, is as much evidence as you can find in support of it, you can find evidence that negates it.
And if I was writing an artificial intelligence that was going to have conscious, you know, people or conscious entities living inside of it, I think I would probably build it like that, because it would be a conundrum that they would get stuck on trying to solve, and never really be able to solve it, because there would always be a riddle attached to it, and there would always be something in the back of their mind telling them, maybe it's true, maybe it's not.
I do.
Now, this is me speaking intuitively.
I'm taking the scientist hat off now.
This is just me speaking intuitively.
Intuitively speaking, I feel like there is something to it.
Do I have any kind of evidence other than my intuition?
No, I don't.
Not really.
Okay, well, you know, what was that book that is used a lot in sci-fi movies?
I don't know if it's written by Dostoevsky, but it's I don't know what it is.
This guy who relives his days in a certain way.
Forget his name.
Anyway, or maybe it was Franz Kafka.
Yeah, that's what it is.
You know who I'm talking about?
Yeah, I know.
To envision this thing that I'm talking about in a certain sense.
I mean, and this was from the early, I don't know, 1940s, 50s.
It was very German originally.
But anyway, it's just an interesting sort of side note.
Well, if you look at all the major religions and any of the major belief systems and myths that have come down over the, you know, as far back as we can trace, pre-literature, pre-literate to even the verbal cultures.
I mean, what they're describing, you know, when there's a separation between heaven and earth, there's a place here that we live that was constructed by these super entities that live somewhere else.
I mean, that is a primitive man's way of describing a virtual reality or a matrix-like system that was constructed for us to live in.
Right?
Absolutely.
So, I think that this notion goes back a long way, and maybe it's intrinsic to the human condition.
Maybe there's, you know, I mean, there's been all kinds of research that's been done with the God-center of the brain, and there's been people in Canada that have done some magnetic impulse research where they can, you know, they can artificially induce the presence of an entity in the room.
They can artificially induce the presence of grey aliens in the room, I've heard.
I haven't... That's right.
I've seen some of the documentation on those experiments.
You know, I've had experiences, and again, this is anecdotal, I'm not being scientific here.
I've had experiences where I've literally been able to see behind the curtain for a second or two, and that's always kept me going in this area of research, and that's primarily where my AI research is focused on, is seeing if I can use this supercomputing capability that we have with network computing to do something and build something that's powerful enough to at least give me a clue, a hint,
a fragment of a message from another entity or another side of the reality a fragment of a message from another entity or another side of the reality so that I can begin to put together some sort of ID. - Okay, Okay, so it looks like We might have dropped Joseph again by accident.
And I can't imagine why talking about Kafka would be freaking them out so bad.
But that appears to be what's happening.
So I was told that I am still on the air.
So indeed, something is messing with our connection with Joseph Matheny at this time.
So I just want to say that we're dialing him back.
But as we do, Joseph, you there?
I should be.
I seem to be.
I think I am.
Okay, well you have now come back.
You were momentarily off air, as you know.
You know, I think there's an AI that's behind this.
I really do.
Now that your suspicions are confirmed.
No, I mean, you know, like I was saying, I've always been motivated since I was a child, because I've had some experiences that were, you know, for lack of a better term, paranormal or otherworldly.
I can't explain them.
I can't quantify them.
I can't justify them scientifically.
I can, if I want to, I can play devil's advocate and justify them away scientifically and justify them away psychologically.
But, you know, that doesn't mean that they weren't real on some level.
And so that's really what's always propelled me forward.
We have some time here.
You want to share one of those?
Which one do I share?
That's the real question.
Probably the most, no I can't say any of them were the most.
One that was very odd had to do with the books of Philip K. Dick and it was one in the 80s, early 80s when I first became aware of the writing of Philip K. Dick through my friend Robert Anton Wilson.
And I was looking for, and remember this was 84, somewhere around there, so the Valis trilogy was out of print at that time.
A lot of his books were out of print until, you know, there was a resurgence with Blade Runner and some of the other movies that have been made from his books recently.
But there was a time where you couldn't find any Philip K. Dick books, especially the more esoteric ones.
So I went hunting for used copies and I found Valis.
And I read it, and I loved it, and then I went looking for The Divine Invasion, and I went to a bookstore that I found in the Yellow Pages in Chicago, and it was the downstairs of a three-story Victorian house, or Victorian-like, I guess, that had a bookshop in it, and I knocked on the door, and this Elderly lady with silver hair and brilliant blue eyes answered the door, and she was very kind.
And we had a long talk about books, and I said, I'm looking for something you probably don't have.
I'm looking for The Divine Invasion by Philip K. Dick.
And she said, well, as a matter of fact, I have two copies of that.
And I was, oh, great!
I've been looking all over for this.
So she took me to the back room, and she dug in a box and pulled out two copies.
And she held them both out.
One was a hardback version that had a baby on the cover that was floating above the planet.
And the other one was a paperback version that had a little girl standing in front of the planet holding a broken doll and looking very sad.
She said, which one do you want?
And I said, I'll take the hardback because that's probably, you know, the more valuable one.
And I want to collect this.
I want to keep it.
And she looked at me and said, are you absolutely sure that's the one you want?
And I'm thinking, this is a trick.
No, I'll take the hardback.
I really want the hardback.
And then I bought the hardback and she said, that was a good choice.
I just wanted to make sure that this is the one that you want.
I'm like, yeah, that's the one I want.
So I bought the hardback and I went off to my house across the city.
And the next morning I thought about it and I'm like, I should have got both of them.
What was I thinking?
I should have got both of them.
There's obviously something to that paperback, right?
And that's why she was dangling it in front of me.
And I'm going to leave the rest of that story until after the commercial.
Okay, excellent.
We'll be right back.
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The truth has just gotten hotter.
You raise up your head.
This is very hot.
You ask, is this where it is?
This is Floor Radio and we're talking to Joseph Matheny.
We're just talking about Philip K. Dick and we were getting a, we were halfway through or whatever, a personal story that you were telling us and actually I'm wondering if you went back to mine, that house or that store or whatever it was and found it gone or whatever.
You know, odder than that.
So the next day I decide I should go get the paperback because something tells me that there was something special about that paperback.
By the way, I've never been able to find that paperback, that cover, or anybody who's ever seen it.
So I went back to the house and I went downstairs and I knocked on the door.
The shades were down.
Nobody answered the door.
I knocked on the door.
Nobody answered the door.
I thought, you know, because I called and there was no answer.
And I thought, well, I'll come back some other time.
And as I was getting ready to leave, a 30-something, at the time they were called yuppies, if you remember that term, came out of the second story and asked me, you know, with kind of, you know, with consternation on his face, can I help you?
I'm like, oh, I was here to go to the bookstore.
I wanted to talk to the lady and see if I could get another book.
And he looked at me very strange.
And he said, there's no bookstore down there.
What are you talking about?
And I said, I bought a book here yesterday.
It was a little old lady with silver hair and bright blue eyes.
He just looked at me like I was utterly insane.
He's like, there's no bookstore here.
You have to leave.
And that was it.
So I left, and I didn't even bother to go back after that.
I talked to a couple book dealers that I know who deal in rare books, and I described this book to them.
I told them the story.
They all looked at me like I was nuts, first of all.
And then secondly, they said, I've seen every Philip K. Dick book ever made, especially of Divine Invasion, and I've never seen that cover.
I don't think it's ever been made.
And so that means I really should have taken that book, so I really blew it.
But, you know, and I've told a couple, I told Peter Moon this story, I told Bob Wilson the story.
Bob Wilson's reply was, hmm, was it senility or sensimilia?
Hmm, you're too young for senility, it must be the sensimilia.
Nobody's been able to explain to me what happened, and, you know, it happens.
Internet timeline, right?
Or I was in a parallel universe, or maybe I was having a psychotic episode.
I mean, who knows?
Whatever happened, it was a very strange thing, and it really stuck with me for a long time.
It really gave me the willies, but it also gave me encouragement that I was on the right path with the studies that I was doing.
Very cool.
Okay, that's great.
Okay, so I don't know.
We have 15 minutes left.
Have we covered every subject or would you like to cover something that I haven't even, you know, gone close to?
Let's see.
We talked about the... Oh, you know what?
I'll just... I'm gonna do this too.
I've not done this publicly, but I'm gonna give a little glimpse into what I'm doing with the new... I'm calling it the sequel.
It's not really a sequel.
Okay.
Basically, what I'm doing is I'm taking the story another step further, and based on some of the things that I saw on TV net and some of the other places, there were people that were seriously trying to recreate the egg from the Econobula and Ongsat documents.
There are people that have done research in this area.
There are people in Russia that actually sent me pictures and claimed they had a working one.
This was several years ago.
I never I never got to meet them or see if it was actually working.
I don't know if I would have climbed in it if I did.
But that got me to thinking that, you know, there's a lot of young, over the years I've been contacted by, as you can imagine, a lot of people about this story.
And more often than not, there are young people that are into science and physics and People that are studying, you know, in university or studying physics and they're interested in the story.
So I thought, well, why don't I write a story from that perspective?
Why don't I write a story about a young man who discovers the incunabula documents online and decides to build a working device?
And thinks that he won't succeed because he's doing it as a joke, but he actually does.
Awesome.
And so, does he go somewhere?
You're going to have to read the book to know that.
But, you know, everything that happens after that is like, you know, that's where all the intrigue and we get to talk about parallel universes and what happens if we really do, you know, develop a device that can go to another universe and come back.
What happens at that point?
I mean, this is something that's going to be as big as time travel, because if you think about what happens Yes, we've had some, you know, some success in moving particles around in time and some things like that, but what happens when David Anderson or somebody like him actually demonstrates to the world a working time travel device?
What happens to human consciousness at that point is that our concept of time is obliterated.
When we can actually travel forward in time, possibly backwards in time, but when time becomes a fluid thing for us as existential creatures in the time stream, This just blows human consciousness away and turns it into something else, because our concept of time, it has a lot to do with who we are and how we conceive of ourselves and how we conceive of, you know, ourself in time.
And when that goes away, when you have time travelers that are coming back from the future and visiting you in the now, and people like, you know, you and I are going forward and going back, What happens to human consciousness at that point?
So if you take that and look at like moving sideways, which I always like to use the universal travel as sideways.
If you're moving sideways, and I know technically speaking that can be refuted and I can tear that apart, but just for the sake of demonstration, let's say, you know, for example, let's say that the universe is about doing parallel universe travel is about moving sideways.
What does that do to human consciousness?
And who do we become at that point?
Right.
Well, how do you resolve all of it and still carry on in any kind of forward trajectory?
OK.
You don't.
That's the thing.
I think that I think that people like.
Yeah, I think I actually I'm going to put myself on the line here, but I actually instinctively and again, intuitively, this is not the scientist to be speaking, intuitively feel that Terrence McKenna may have been right.
And that, you know, something is going to happen in 2012 or somewhere around there, because I'm not a, you know, I'm not an orthodox person about the Mayan calendar, but something, you know, something is going to happen in the next couple of years.
And it could very well be that time travel and somebody like David Anderson that demonstrates time travel and this shift in consciousness happens.
And at that point, maybe, just maybe, That's the point in history where time travelers from the future are allowed to come back to, but not beyond.
Okay, well, you know, I don't know if you've heard that we have 12 selves in theory.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, so, and that's where it also gets very convoluted, because you have to take that into account.
Well, and if you're talking about parallel universes, and if it's absolutely positively proven that There are parallel universes and we can peer into them and then eventually we can go to them.
You have to realize that, you know, you have to get this vision of yourself as not just this singular monad moving through time, but rather something like an infinite regress where you put the mirror and the mirror together and you can look down both the hallways of yourselves.
That's more what your existence becomes because you're now connected To all these other yous and all these other universes, and which one is you?
Absolutely.
Well, and the notion of point of view changes.
In a sense, I don't know if you know, you know, to get back to our Awaken Aware Conference, we have Nassim Hiram and talking about fractals and the idea that you are a fractal of yourself.
So you can fractalize the notion of who you are and that's, in a sense, you become a prism.
Well, yeah, that's a very good description of it.
If you want to get an inkling of really what the fractal equations are representative of, the Mandelbrot set, which is very famous, is what you see of the Mandelbrot set out there are static snapshots of a state of a Mandelbrot set, but they are not the full expression of the equation.
The person who really kind of pounded this into my head when I was younger was Ralph Abraham, who I have studied with, and he said, You know, this is actually a non-linear dynamic equation, and that got me thinking.
And so, at the time, there was a machine called the SGI.
I don't know if anybody remembers that, Silicon Graphics.
But it was one of the few machines that was capable of running high-intensity graphic software back in the mid-90s.
And I happened to have access to one.
So, I got the fractal equations.
And put them into the machine and have them representing a true living fractal, or a hot fractal as I call them, which is infinite.
You can actually keep zooming in on the fractal basin boundaries and it will keep recreating a new form of the fractal ad infinitum, which most people don't realize that that's what the boundary of a fractal is actually not a boundary.
It's infinite.
Yeah, that's great.
Now, you just mentioned Ralph Abraham.
You studied with him.
So, in what way did you study with him?
When I lived in Santa Cruz, I was taking classes with him.
I befriended him.
He's been on my show.
I've taken all kinds of mathematics classes with him.
I did work with Ralph.
That's the definition of study, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Well, that's wonderful.
Okay, I'm sorry, we're at the end of the show.
Joseph Matheny, we'd love to have you back sometime in the future and catch up with you and see where you're at at that time.
Follow your progress with your movies, with your new rendition of Or a sequel to Ong's Hat, and so on.
But thank you so much for coming on.
Can you give out your websites and maybe say some parting words?
Hello?
Okay, doesn't look like we're going to get a shot at that.
So, thank you very much, Josephine, for joining us.
And we'll be back next week.
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