Michael Wolff OPENS UP About Epstein, Trump Intel & Clintons | PBD Podcast | Ep. 632
Patrick Bet-David sits down with Trump biographer Michael Wolff for a revealing conversation as Wolff exposes Jeffrey Epstein’s gossip network, Trump’s private intel and inner circle, and the long list of powerful enemies Trump has made along the way.
------
🎧 MICHAEL'S PODCAST "INSIDE TRUMP'S HEAD": https://bit.ly/45C868S
📕 MICHAEL'S BOOK "ALL OR NOTHING: HOW TRUMP RECAPTURED AMERICA": https://amzn.to/4mjMPYx
👕 GET THE LATEST VT MERCH: https://bit.ly/3BZbD6l
🍋 ZEST IT FORWARD: https://bit.ly/4kJ71lc
📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": https://bit.ly/41rtEV4
🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: https://bit.ly/4g57zR2
🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh
🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: https://bit.ly/4eXQl6A
📱 CONNECT ON MINNECT: https://bit.ly/4kSVkso
👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2
📰 VTNEWS.AI: https://bit.ly/3OExClZ
🎓 VALUETAINMENT UNIVERSITY: https://bit.ly/3TEWlZQ
📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or
💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time!
SUBSCRIBE TO:
@VALUETAINMENT
@ValuetainmentComedy
@theunusualsuspectspodcast
@HerTakePod
@bizdocpodcast
ABOUT US:
Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
They were the most important relationship, non-family relationship in each other's lives.
That's a new fact.
What was he like when he was speaking to you during those hundreds of hundreds of hours specifically with Esteban?
As I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship.
Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house.
So far we have Clinton, we have Trump.
Any other big names that he would speak to you?
Well, yes.
Yeah.
Bill Gates, yes.
Epstein related conversations to me about Gates complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife.
I did not like that he'd had meetings with Jeffrey Epstein.
Why would Ehud Barack visit his place 36 times?
Ehud is an incredible gas bag.
You know, I think that he will go.
Oh my God.
What were the last text exchanges with him?
And exactly how much longer after his last text to you did he die?
It came through his lawyers.
So the lawyer told you that could be a cryptic message.
I mean, it is a cryptid, man.
And Jay, Gates, better than anything I ever saw.
It's right here.
You are a one-on-one?
My son's right there.
I don't think I've ever said this before.
Today we have a special guest with us, Michael Wolfe, New York-time best-selling author, Fire and Fury.
It was one of the most talked about books in the last election that we had.
Sold millions on top of millions of copies of books.
Journalist, magazines, paper list is long.
Michael, it's great to have you on a podcast.
Thanks for having me.
Yes.
So, Michael, this is what I'd like to focus on today's conversation to be.
It's one, obviously Epstein-driven because you have the hundred hours with Epstein that we've all read about and heard about.
Two, his business model, how he made his money.
Epstein, we keep hearing about different types of ways he made money.
Is there a blackmail list?
And then aside from that, the way he passed away, I think he called his German girlfriend before he died, but he also, you're the last person he texted before he died.
So you've had a lot of time with him.
You've spent three hours with Trump.
So you've had one-on-one with both of them.
And there's a lot of conversations about a possible mossad link.
Is there anything there?
Is there not anything there?
So those are some of the items I'd want to talk about here today.
Great.
Let's do it.
So let's get right into it.
So if you don't mind, just start off maybe sharing with the audience your relationship over the years and how many hours you've spent with Epstein, as well as your relationship with President Trump.
Sure.
So in 2014, I had known Epstein somewhat before this.
He was a member of a group of wealthy men who in 2004, 2005 tried to buy New York Magazine, where I worked and was the lead writer.
So I got to know him fairly well during this period.
He did not, his group did not end up buying New York Magazine.
Not long after that, his legal problems began, and then he went to jail.
So I didn't really have any much.
I didn't have any involvement with him until he got out of jail, called me, we got together and in then in 2014 he asked me to write about him a book, magazine article.
Um, you know, clearly he was interested in being rehabilitated.
Um, he had gone to jail.
You know he's for two counts of prostitution, one um.
One of those those um counts being under an underage uh girl um and uh had was a registered sex offender.
So he wanted, he wanted to return to his his um, his life and in large measure he had um um, you know, still lived in his enormous house in in Manhattan.
Um, many people of influence and note were showing up um, but he wanted to continue, continue this, this rehabilitation, and he figured if someone wrote about him that would help.
And I said well, actually i'm, i'm probably not the person and i'm probably not interested in that.
And he said fine, that's fine.
You know I did.
He I certainly didn't have to make a decision.
And he said well, why don't?
If you're interested, why don't you just come whenever you'd like, talk to me, see if my story is interesting to you, see if you feel that i'm straightforward and also uh, there's many interesting people who come to my house and if you're interested, I will invite you on occasion.
Anyway nothing, nothing not to be um, not to be not interested in here.
And I said, you know yeah sure um, no commitments necessary.
And we did begin to talk and he did begin to invite me to some interesting gatherings at his house and I was um I, you know, I was, I was, you know, his story was certainly you could not help but be somewhat interested by this, this story.
But then and this rolls into your next question in in 2015, Donald Trump started to run for president.
I started to cover his campaign um, and that would ultimately be, he would all obviously win and I started to cover his years in the White House and Epstein at that point and our relationship had been relatively infrequent, but at that point he became a very interesting window for me into who Donald Trump really was,
because Epstein and Trump had been the best of friends.
I mean, I don't mean just casual friends acquaintances, someone he knew, I mean the best of friends um, possibly.
I I think they were the most important relationship, non-family relationship in each other's lives.
And his insights about Donald Trump, his knowledge about Donald Trump, his appreciation of all of the, you know, both gifts and otherwise about Donald Trump was immense.
So he became very, very helpful to me.
And we continued our relationship right up until he was arrested.
And then a month later after his arrest, he died.
And during this long period of time from 2014 to 2019, many of our conversations, and obviously with his knowledge, were recorded.
And those are recordings that I now have.
Michael, I appreciate that.
Very helpful to know the backstory of it.
So roughly, let's just say 100 hours.
Of the 100 hours that you have, what were some things that he said?
Did he sound like he was upset at the president?
Did he sound like he was he missed a relationship?
Did he sound like he was over-exaggerating, under-exaggerating?
Did you feel hate?
Did you feel animosity?
Did you feel betrayal?
What was he like when he was speaking to you during those hundreds of hours specifically?
As I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship.
He was, I mean, obviously, Donald Trump had, was about to become, or was in the process of becoming the president and then became the president.
So this became obviously a substantial fact in Jeffrey Epstein's life.
His best friend had become the president.
Now, this was a friendship that stopped over a dispute, a real estate dispute in 2004.
And they became bitter enemies.
And briefly, and I recount this in one of my books.
Jeffrey Epstein believed himself to be the top bidder for a piece of real estate in Palm Beach in 2004.
He had bid $36 million for this Palm Beach house.
He took his friend Donald Trump over to advise him on the logistics of moving the swimming pool.
His friend Trump then immediately went around his back and bid $40 million for the house and got the house.
Epstein, on his part, believed and had Epstein had pretty intimate knowledge of Trump's financial basis.
I mean, they were involved with deals together.
Epstein was among Trump's business advisors in essence.
And Epstein believed that Trump did not have $40 million.
Therefore, he concluded that Trump was fronting for someone and that this was essentially a money laundering, part of a money laundering scheme.
And in fact, the house was sold.
Trump sold the house within two years for $95 million, which would be a kind of a red flag that something was going on here.
Trump began to, Trump was, Epstein was furious with Trump over this real estate betrayal.
And I often think that men of a certain level of wealth, the thing that angers them most is a real estate betrayal.
But he started to threaten Trump with lawsuits and with going to the press with this allegation that Epstein threatened to sue Trump.
Yes.
And I've been to this house.
It looks nothing like it does in this picture because they tore it down.
They rebuilt it back up.
I looked at this house four years ago with a realtor in Palm Beach who was showing me a bunch of homes.
It's an immaculate house.
I mean, the house looks, it doesn't look like a house.
It looks like a museum.
It's a beautiful property.
So he's threatened to sue him, even though they're friends.
He's threatened to sue him over the steel.
Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
As I say, rich men break down over real estate disputes.
At any rate, at that point, Epstein's legal problems began.
The police began to investigate him over allegations that he was, that there were underage women coming to his house.
Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house.
And from that point on, they were nothing but bitter enemies.
And this is what he's telling you.
This is one of the instances of what he's telling you.
Yes.
That the following is that.
That is the version of this related by Epstein.
Okay.
If it's 100 hours, you know, Michael, what else did he say?
Did he say anything about Clinton's?
Did he say anything about other politicians or businessmen?
You know, he said a lot.
I mean, the 100 Hours is pretty much in some sense, his autobiography.
He's talking through the details of his life.
Trump does not occupy most of these hours.
Trump, I would say, is 15%, maybe, maybe 15% is a lot more.
I mean, he keeps coming back to Trump, and obviously that's one of my interests here.
So I'm pressing him on the Trump relationship.
But he's also speaking about broadly other things.
Yes, he speaks about Clinton somewhat.
Clinton turned his back on Epstein after Epstein's legal problems began.
So he was, you know, I think he felt that at best, Clinton was a fair weather friend.
And that was largely the regard he had for Clinton at this point.
And there was a set of other people like that.
Many people turned on Epstein or this.
What other names would you say?
So far we have Clinton, we have Trump.
Any other big names that he would speak to you?
Well, yes, yeah.
Ghillain Maxwell.
So Ghelane Maxwell, who had been very close to him, obviously, after 2004, after the police stepped into this, 2004, 2005, she very much distanced herself from Epstein.
And Epstein was hurt by this.
She distanced herself from Epstein.
Yes.
Yeah.
They had no, I mean, this is a, in this story, and obviously Ghelane is so closely linked to Epstein at this point and the one person in this whole scandal to go to jail.
But the truth is that by 2004, 2005, she was pretty much out of his life.
Wow.
And yeah, I mean, a little, you know, again, it's very hard to separate.
I mean, the whole facts of this Epstein story are clouded, not least of all by the fact that most of the information that we get about this story is from people who don't know anything, who are speculating or who are adopting the information they have heard from somebody else who doesn't know anything.
And the people who do know things have been so paranoid about being connected to Jeffrey Epstein that they haven't spoken.
So therefore, everything or many of the things that we know about this story are soft.
Did he say anything about Ghislaine that maybe the public doesn't know about that it stuck out?
Any story that he said where you're like, wow, I never knew that.
I think the public needs to know this story about the two of them.
Well, I don't, I mean, I think what's not recognized is that A, that Ghelane was out of his life at a relatively long ago moment,
that while they had had a close relationship, a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship for a short period, after that, she increasingly became not his partner in crime, but his, you know, his functionary, his employee.
She was, you know, she was getting paid and she was carrying out whatever duties he told her to carry out or whatever duties she inferred that she had to carry out.
So I think, again, that's another misperception of this relationship.
If you're saying they didn't no longer did things together, I think she got charged, found guilty in 2021, December 2021, which is less than four years ago.
I think she's facing 20 years right now.
It was sex trafficking of a minor, conspiracy to entice minors to travel to engage in illegal sex acts, conspiracy to transport minors with intend to engage in illegal sexual activity in transportation.
All of this, every specific here relates to what happened prior to 2004 or 2005.
Got it.
So this goes back to then.
Michael, when you were interviewing and recording Epstein, was it mostly in his apartment?
Is that where it was at?
His penthouse in Manhattan?
Well, it's not a penthouse.
It's a mansion.
21,000 square feet.
I think that's the one that Lex Wexner gave him.
It's a beautiful property from what I've done.
Yeah, and that's even another soft thing that is said, you know, you hear it's 21,000 square feet.
Epstein described it as 55,000 square feet.
And it clearly is, I mean, a good-sized townhouse in New York is about, you know, 15,000 to 20,000 square feet.
This is triple the size of a good-sized townhouse.
I mean, it is, it's on a block in Manhattan on 71st Street between Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue, which is, it's a block of these significant mansions.
But his dwarfs them all.
So you see, I mean, there are these big mansions which you would say, oh my God, you know, that must be a, you know, who could possibly live in that?
Those are amazing.
And then next to his, you say, this is truly mind-blowing.
Yeah, I mean, it's documented as the largest private residence in Manhattan, whether you call it a penthouse or whatever.
So did you ever ask him why Lex Wexner gave that to him as a gift?
Yes, and he would deny that.
In other words, he said, yes, this was part of a financial transaction he had with Wexner, the details of which I don't exactly know, but certainly he billed this as a, that he had bought the house from Wexner.
Did it not make you kind of sit there and say, I mean, I'm sure you've gotten nice gifts in your life.
I've had a couple nice gifts, you know, in my life, a couple of them from my friends and my wife.
No one's been nice enough to give me the largest private residence.
You know, I once had a conversation with Wexner about, this was the only time I met Wexner, and he had said, and I said, you know, I mean, how did you meet, you know, Epstein or something.
But I don't remember my question, but I remember his answer.
He looked surprised and said, Jeffrey made me half a billion dollars.
Jeffrey made me half a billion dollars.
Did he tell you?
Well, I assume from giving him financial advice, but I don't know.
And possibly investment advice.
I mean, a lot of people make a lot of people half a billion dollars, but they don't give the biggest private residence in New York many years.
Well, as I say, as I say, from Epstein's point of view, this was not a gift.
It was a transaction.
The nature of that transaction, I don't know.
It's a little bit suspicious on what happened here.
When you walked into this private residence, you know how they say that painting of President Bush and Clinton, did you ever see those two paintings in the property?
I don't know the President Bush.
I saw that one, and it was in a little, a little, it was basically in a closet off the main entrance.
Did you ever ask him why he has that?
That's a very weird painting for you to have of a president in a dress and a painting, in a painting.
That's kind of weird.
Yeah, I think it was a joke painting.
You know, at one point, I never saw that painting.
So I don't know where the Bush painting is from.
I have seen the Clinton painting.
And, you know, it was a joke.
The nature of the joke, I'm not exactly sure.
But it's a point about Epstein that he treated almost everything like a joke.
In fact, art itself was treated like a joke.
The piece of art above his mantle, above the fireplace on the ground floor, was something he had bought on the street, which is a street painting for $100 or something.
And then he had spent thousands and thousands of dollars on framing it.
So it looked like a, partly because of this frame, it looked like a significant piece of art, which it was not.
And it amused him that many of the wealthy men he knew spent enormous amounts of money on art, which he considered a kind of vanity or even pretension or possibly a fraud.
Yeah.
So very, very interesting when you think about it.
So you saw the painting, Bill Clinton's, President Bill Clinton's.
If you're going to play a joke and you're going to have all these guests that come in.
I don't know if the former, you know, Barack, that these guys are coming over 36 times.
If I'm living in America, I don't know if I'm going to have a painting of the president like that in my house to make fun of the president.
It undermines the leader of my country.
Or there's some people that speculate that this was one way of him saying, hey, I have you, Bill.
You better.
And there's a lot of different speculations.
Well, I don't know.
I mean, he certainly didn't have him.
And, you know, the Clintons, Bill particularly walked out of his life after the investigation started.
So the painting may have been a kind of, there may have been some bitterness in this painting.
And he kept this painting.
And I don't really know where the painting came from.
But he was certainly not, you know, again, I think it hurt him that Clinton turned on him like that.
And that would be a validation of to say, now that you turn on me and distance yourself from me after all the fun you had with me traveling without secret service, just so you know, you better not screw me because I know you know what I know about you.
In a very dark way, that would make sense to say, everyone that comes here better not come after me because you know what I know about you.
Well, yeah, I mean, it's possible, except that obviously people did come after him.
And, you know, there was no, you know, I think at various points, and there were people who wanted him to spill or share information about Clinton.
And I don't think that, I mean, to my knowledge, that never happened.
And, you know, I mean, I think that was always a possibility in a sense that Epstein believed in the investigation, the initial investigation of him in Florida.
So the investigation of him in Florida, as I understand, began as a state investigation, actually, a local investigation by the police in Palm Beach.
And then it was taken over by the feds, which would have been unusual.
And Epstein believed that that was an effort by people in the Bush administration then to get information about Bill Clinton.
Is this the Palm Beach story with the parents of the 14-year-old girl that said that she was molested by him?
This is the 2007.
This is the first investigation, investigation which began in 2004 and then sent him to jail.
And I don't know.
In your eyes, Michael, having spent as much time as you did with him, do you think Epstein is a bad guy?
Well, he's clearly a bad guy.
I mean, he clearly did things that I would not do and you would not do.
And we would hope that the people we know would not do.
And so, yeah, I mean, he's a sex offender.
He went to jail.
But is he, in addition to that, an intelligent guy, a knowledgeable guy, a guy who had who had insights to offer, I would say, in my experience, yes.
Does one cancel out the other?
No, but they exist together.
Totally makes sense.
I've met a lot of guys that are extremely knowledgeable and fun, even fun to talk to, but you know, they've done something.
I interviewed Samuel Bogravano.
He's got to be one of the best storytellers I've met in my life.
Well, yes.
I mean, I have a kind of specialty in bad guys.
I know you do.
That's what I did.
You know, and I know a lot of bad guys.
Well, it's your world for me.
They're not gangsters.
They're guys who are, I would consider, as you probably know, Donald Trump to be a bad guy.
Okay, so you think Donald Trump is a bad guy, and you think Epstein is also a bad guy.
Yeah, and I think, and it's always, I think Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are very much similar people.
That's why Epstein, knowing Epstein, Epstein supplies a window into who Donald Trump is because they were A, so close, but also so close in their interests.
Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represents who you are.
So for us, if you wear a future looks bright hat or a value tame gear, you're telling the world, I'm optimistic.
I'm excited about what's going to be happening, but you're a free thinker.
You question things.
You like debate.
And by the way, last year, 120,000 people got a piece of future looks bright gear with valutainment.
We have so many new things.
The cufflinks are here.
New future looks bright.
This is my favorite, the green one.
Just yesterday, somebody placed an order for 100 of these.
If you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from.
White ones, black ones.
If you smoke cigars and you come to our cigar lounge, we have this high-quality lighter cutter and a holder for the cigars.
We got sweaters with the value tame logo on it.
We got mugs.
We got a bunch of different things.
But if you believe the future looks bright, if you follow our content and what we represent with value tame, with PBD podcasts, go to vtmerch.com.
And by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift insight just for you.
So again, go to vtmerch.com, place your order.
Tell the world that you believe the future looks bright.
So, okay, so let's go there.
With the 100 hours that you have, is there anything in there?
Like, let's just say I'm an interested buyer.
I would be interested in buying the 100 hours that you have.
I would be interested in buying Bannon's 15, 16 hours that he has, right?
I would be interested in both of them.
Let me just add about Bannon's, what the hours that Bannon has is that Bannon, I wouldn't buy them from Bannon if I were you because Bannon does not own them.
Oh, who owns them?
I didn't know that.
Yeah, Jeffrey Epstein paid for those tapes that Bannon owns.
So the trust owns it.
Yes.
Yes.
The estate owns it.
The estate owns it.
So wow.
Okay.
So that's a new fact.
I didn't know the fact that that recording is not.
So Bannon couldn't sell it if he tried.
So if he wanted to do a documentary, he would never be able to use those hours in a documentary.
Yes.
And again, and again, let me stress that that, although Steve, who I am personally fond of, but Steve's cover here that he was making a documentary about Epstein is 100% not true.
I know this because I was there and I'm fully aware and actually have it on tape of what transpired here, and that was Bannon's effort to help Epstein with his legal problems,
and this would be in 2019 when the law was closing in on Epstein, and Bannon's suggestion was that Epstein go on national TV to try to perform a mea culpa or explain or humanize himself in some way.
And then Bannon offered to help prepare him.
So essentially, what Bannon was doing was media training.
He was tutoring Epstein in how to face a hostile interview on a, you know, on a hypothetical 60 minutes.
Got it.
So more of a training, a PR than anything else.
So let's talk about your 100 hours that you have with them.
How much information is in there that it's bomb show, you know, earth-shattering type of information where the public should know about out of the 100 hours you have with them?
Well, you know, it's a funny aspect of this.
And, you know, people call me up now, you know, people of significant standing and say, is there, you know, on the tapes, does Epstein promise Trump young girls?
Or does Epstein promise Bannon young girls?
That kind of thing.
And I kind of say, you know, I don't know, you know, you've obviously never done interviews with people.
I mean, when they ask that kind of thing.
You know, these conversations unfold over a long period.
And these are conversations like life itself.
Epstein is talking about his life.
There's lots and lots of details.
There's lots of information that would be surprising.
I suppose there are, you know, the Daily Mail could go through this and pull out a thousand headlines that would seem headline worthy.
When you listen to these tapes or when you were present, as I was during these things, you don't have that feeling.
You have the feeling that this is incredibly interesting, fascinating, and it exposes a life.
So what you get is a life rather than headlines.
Although, as I say, I'm sure you could go through this and pull out the sound bites, which would then add up to headlines.
Would the FBI or the DOJ benefit from having access to these 100 hours?
Well, benefit for what purpose, since Jeffrey Epstein is already dead?
No, not necessarily.
We know he's already dead.
Just to gather more intel, would the FBI or the DOJ, if they're trying to get to the bottom of this, would they get it?
Well, I think it's a question of what they're trying to get to the bottom of.
If they are trying to get to the bottom of who Jeffrey Epstein was, about the real nature of Jeffrey Epstein's personality, about Jeffrey Epstein's not only his weaknesses, but his strengths.
If the FBI and the DOJ were biographers, as I am, they would find it interesting.
But since they are not biographers, I think that they would probably be less interested.
Let's certainly.
The FBI's job, you know, different than CIA.
CIA is international, foreign.
The FBI is domestic.
Their job is to make sure families in America are going to be safe.
Americans are going to be safe.
So anybody that's tied to this or to even eliminate or address a future next Epstein, they would probably benefit from studying the patterns of how this guy communicates.
And if that's the case, has the FBI, has the Department of Justice, have they at all reached out to you since you've had these for six years, whether it's under Biden or Obama, Biden or Trump, to say, hey, Michael, we think we need access to this recording that you have?
No, they haven't, and they probably haven't for a lot of reasons.
First, I'm a journalist and a writer, therefore that becomes a complicated thing.
I mean, Epstein was a source for what I was doing.
So I think that they understand the difficulties there.
And then I also think they're probably unclear on what they probably have no goals.
There is probably no open investigation of Jeffrey Epstein.
And of course, to what point he is dead.
And there's no, to my knowledge, open investigation of anyone else involved with Jeffrey Epstein.
Ghelane is obviously has obviously been convicted.
I mean, she's been convicted.
She's in jail and is now headed toward a part.
And so I don't think that there is any issue there.
So again, crossing these disciplines of someone who has been interested in, someone has material that reflects the full life of this man.
And then the FBI and the DOJ, who are not interested in the full life of this man, they're interested in only their, from their highly segmented view of any given person.
Yeah, but not even a door knock, right?
You've not even gotten a doorknock on them.
Hey, Michael, can we see this?
You've had nothing.
No email, no doorknock, no text, no phone call.
Nope.
Okay.
And if you were to sell it to an interested party, what would be the range of your asking price for you?
I wouldn't sell it.
It's not for sale.
Okay, so you're not selling it.
I got it.
No, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a, no, I'm a writer.
So this is a story that I think is worth telling.
As a writer, it's a story that, you know, I mean, it's a pretty interesting story for me.
So how I tell it and when I tell it, you know, is a kind of an organic and natural process.
But I don't know why I got the impression that you were open to selling it and you said some people reached out or they didn't or you were.
No, I mean, I have spoken to many, many outlets and, you know, but it is about telling this story.
It is not about, I would never sell this.
I would never, you know, this is, and this is an important aspect of being a writer and a journalist.
This is my story.
Makes sense.
It's not anyone else's story.
I respect it.
I respect it.
Michael, on the topic of, you know, with his meeting, did you ever ask him about – because, you know, a lot of – I've sat down with his brother.
On the topic of – I've interviewed his brother, Mark Epstein.
He came to my cigar lounge about, I don't know, a year and a half, two years ago.
I don't know the exact date, but he was with us for a couple hours.
And we sat down.
We had a lot of conversations.
It was actually an interesting conversation.
I enjoyed talking to the guy on what he had to say.
You'll hear the name being dropped of Mossad regularly that he had ties back to Mossad.
I mean, why would Ehud Barak visit his place 36 times?
Why would he, you know, regularly have access to the White House when he would go see Clinton?
Did you get a feeling from the 100 hours you guys spoke together that there was any ties to the Mossad?
Sure, sure.
Let me give you precisely my feeling because I don't know.
And, you know, Epstein, I think it's very possible to say Epstein lived a very compartmentalized life.
You saw what he wanted you to see.
But I had been at Epstein's house many, many, many times when Ehud Barak was there, certainly a dozen times, maybe, maybe more.
Oh, wow.
And Ehud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein were very close.
I mean, I think among, you know, they were, they were certainly among each other's closer friends.
And, you know, I think it's been documented that Ehud Barak got money from Epstein and they had various business dealings together.
But also they clearly enjoyed each other.
I mean, I saw this again and again and again.
And obviously, Ehud Barak had a very clear connection to Mossad, although Ehud Barak, a former prime minister, was out of power, but very much knowledgeable about and engaged in the Israeli politics and the Israeli power structure.
Having said that, and therefore, Epstein himself was very knowledgeable about Israel, about its interests, about its politics, and to a degree about its intelligence.
My view of Epstein, however, is that he possessed the information he possessed would be better characterized as gossip rather than intelligence.
And Epstein was a great gossip, a great purveyor of information and information in whatever form.
And he was a purveyor of that information to a wide variety of people.
I mean, he certainly was not, was not, he certainly had no one client he was passing information to.
Information was part of Epstein's currency, and it was a currency that he used for, I think, financial gain, but also for social climbing.
So one of the reasons people would come to Epstein's house and sit around his table is that you would hear things that the New York Times didn't know.
But this was not carefully shared.
This was, as I say, A gossip's currency.
I mean, some would say gossip and intel are cousins.
You know, they're somewhat related.
I can still guess what they're saying.
No, I'm sure that they are, that they are, are related.
They're just not the same thing.
And I'm not sure that if you would, that you would necessarily want your intelligence agent to be one of the world's biggest gossips because he couldn't contain himself.
He would tell anyone anything.
He couldn't contain himself.
Epstein couldn't contain himself.
So he was always talking.
Always.
So then that's actually that makes for a terrible mosaic.
It's terrible.
I would say.
Because, and a part of it, which is kind of weird, when he said they had a at one point, Ehud Barak, they had a scheduled monthly meeting, I think 15 consecutive months.
And one time in, and these happened like at 2015, 2017, 2013, if I'm not mistaken, somebody can search this and verify it.
And even at one point, Ehud Barack said, I actually didn't know about his dealings in the past.
I didn't know that he had these things that were said, which is kind of naive to say that being the prime minister.
Ehud is full of shit.
You know, Ehud knew Jeffrey.
I mean, I mean, did Ehud know that Jeffrey's that Jeffrey Epstein had clearly had a fetish for young girls?
I don't know.
I don't know to what extent Ehud knew that, but Ehud certainly was not, did not know as he now represents Jeffrey Epstein on a casual basis.
They were close, close, close friends.
Did you, what did you, what was your feeling about Ehud when you were Rona?
Was it just like it was nonchalant?
They were just hanging out because the investment Epstein had made, I think, in Carbine 9-11.
Or did you, what feeling did you get from him?
Yeah, good, bad, indifferent?
Completely.
Completely.
Ehud was there, came to Jeff, Jeffrey Epstein's because he enjoyed it.
He enjoyed meeting other people.
He enjoyed, I mean, Ehud, who, as I say, I, you know, have spent a lot of time with now.
Ehud is an incredible gas bag.
You know, I think that he will go, oh my God.
You know, he would go anywhere.
He would be anywhere in any situation in which people were, he had a captive audience to listen to him, go on and on and on and on.
And, you know, and Jeffrey Epstein listened to him.
He indulged him for, you know, I mean, I mean, Ehud, Ehud gave, you know, I mean, I would say in any hour block of conversation, Ehud might supply five minutes of interesting information.
When you were on Epstein, 55 minutes, others, you would have to.
I haven't heard that word in a long time.
Did you see, when you were there on your visits, did you see young girls?
Did you see a lot of pretty girls?
Did you see models there?
Was that something that was part of the energy of being in this place or not at all?
Yes, there were always a set of young women, and I mean young women, they would clearly have been in their 20s.
Okay.
You know, possibly even late 20s.
That's all for Linda.
I wouldn't be surprised if you.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, who were there as assistants and, you know, basically, basically assistants.
Define assistance because there's a lot of ways to assist men.
Well, no, they did.
They took, they made his appointments and they assistants, like assistants, or do you think they were assisting?
Like, they were assistants.
Like, like they were the receptionists.
They were the this.
They would come in.
They would, they would bring him.
Forgive me.
I thought you meant something else.
So, okay, so you're saying there were his personal assistants that were there.
And are they bringing you tea, coffee?
Hey, would you like some tea?
Yes, they did.
They did.
They did all of that.
I mean, I always equated them.
You know, if you live in New York, where I've lived for a long time, you know, there are high-end art galleries in which there are always clearly young women who are the receptionists and who are there to kind of guide you, give you information.
And they all are clearly chosen because of their poise and the way they present.
And that's what these women in Epstein's house, and I think they were different from the women, you know, the massage women in Palm Beach and then the set of Eastern European models that you would occasionally see.
You know, I think that this was part of this carefully orchestrated ecosystem of women around Jeffrey Epstein.
When you were at his place, did Bill Gates or Barack Obama ever come by or no?
You did not see them there?
No, I don't think Barack Obama knows Epstein.
Bill Gates, yes.
So you did see Bill Gates visit, so he was around.
Oh, okay, got it.
So I think his wife at the end, you know, when she said something in one of the interviews where she's like, I was not comfortable how close he was getting to Epstein.
And even Bill Gates in another interview later on said, yes, I probably shouldn't have gotten close to him, et cetera, et cetera.
We've seen this interview.
You definitely have seen this interview.
Yeah, no, and I think that that's a, I mean, I think Gates and Epstein were actually quite close.
And certainly as long ago as 2014, Epstein related conversations to me about Gates complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife.
So I think that it was a, you know, and I mean, one of the things that Epstein did and one of the things that he was involved in when he when he was involved with these very, very wealthy men, he got involved in family matters that impacted on the fortunes, on these various fortunes.
And obviously, divorce impacts on a great fortune.
Got it.
So this is the whole idea about, hey, let's take this money and put it elsewhere pre-getting married and pay a consulting fee to prevent from having to pay half of it.
Creative ways of not paying as much to your spouse if you go through a divorce.
Yes.
Okay, got it.
In regards to the business model, did you guys talk about how he makes money?
I mean, how he originally made his money?
Because we did.
And that's always, you know, I think that that's one of those aspects of his life that was very compartmentalized.
I mean, I've had this discussion with him, but do not feel that I certainly didn't feel that I was getting the whole story.
Quite the opposite.
It was rather he was, he kind of teased you with the story.
I mean, he told me once, he said, when I pressed him, and I said, okay, tell me, come on, where it is, where does the dough come from?
I mean, I've seen him, you know, in many instances.
I never saw him, however, do a lick of work.
So what was going on?
Where did this come from?
And he said, and I remember he said it is, again, in a very teasy kind of way.
He said, well, I run something like a reverse Ponzi scheme.
In a real Ponzi scheme, you make money that does not exist appear to exist.
In my Ponzi scheme, I make money that exists appear not to exist.
And the example was if you're a wealth, very wealthy person and getting a divorce.
And if you hide $100 million or at least make $100 million of your wealth disappear, you've just made, saved $50 million.
Yeah, there was a guy that Mark Epstein told me that was Epstein's mentor.
I don't remember the gentleman's name.
He went away and he was in the Stephen, what's his name?
Stephen Hofberg?
He's Steven Hoffenberg.
I don't know if you know about...
Okay, yeah, so...
I do.
Did that name ever come up or no, between the two of you?
You know, it came up in the Hoffenberg, who Epstein had been involved with, and Hoffenberg had an insurance company that collapsed.
And Hoffenberg went to jail for a long time, like I don't, like 15 years.
And then he got out of jail and he started to press Epstein for what I don't exactly know, but that was something I was aware of going on in the background.
Now, Mark Epstein, just by the way, you know, had also not been really, his relationship with his brother had been, was at best strained for quite a number of years.
He said that as well.
He said that as well, that they were not as close.
I said, you guys live a few minutes with each other.
How often do you guys have dinner or lunch together?
Not that often, maybe once every couple.
I'm like, you're a few minutes away.
So that was a very interesting dynamic as well, the relationship between you.
And my understanding of that, and I don't have a complete understanding because, I mean, that was not something that Epstein seemed to want to talk about, was that his brother distanced after Epstein's legal difficulties beginning in 2004.
His brother, like Ghelane, distanced himself from Jeffrey Epstein.
So two people who he contacted last before he passed away.
One of them was his German girlfriend who was correct.
She was not German.
She was from, as I understand, and I had met her a few times from Belarus.
She was from Belarus?
We got to get this right because, you know, the guys, her name is Karina Shuliak.
Karina Shuliak.
Belarus.
Belarus.
Okay, so from Belarus.
And I said, German, forgive me to all the people from Belarus.
I didn't want to offend you.
So he calls her last, one, but he texts you last.
What were the last text exchanges with him?
And exactly how much longer after his last text to you did he die?
Yeah, you know, I think that it was not a text, really.
It came through his lawyers, so he couldn't text.
He was given, they had gotten him the clearance to call the girlfriend.
But The message to me had come through one of the lawyers.
I mean, I knew the lawyers and I passed them a message.
I said, you know, I mean, just, and the message that I sent to him was, you know, how are you doing?
Or, you know, just that kind of, that kind of thing.
And, and his response to that message was, and let's, the context of this is that's about a week before he had apparently tried to hang himself, or that's what people said, or again, a confusing situation.
But his response to me was, quote, still hanging around.
How are you?
Still hanging around.
And then X number of hours later, I mean, this was on Friday, early on Saturday morning, he was found with a bed sheet around his neck in his.
Well, that's a weird text.
So the lawyer sends you a text of his last message saying still hanging around.
Maybe he was hanging around, meaning the lawyer saying he's dying.
So the lawyer told you still hanging around?
That could be a cryptic message.
Well, I mean, I don't know.
I mean, it is a cryptic message, but you know, it is.
I mean, in my understanding of Epstein and how he responded to things, he was responding to that the news coverage of that he had apparently tried to hang himself, but then they actually said he hadn't tried.
There was a dispute about that, and that was his reference to make a joke out of that, which would have been very Jeffrey Epstein-like.
Did Nicholas Tortagliano ever come up?
His cellmate, the guy that, you know, multiple times beat up the same person on four different occasions?
Did not come up with me.
I mean, those are the community.
That's the only communication I would have had with our direct communication.
With the last few minutes we have together here, Michael.
So this is why I wish this was face to face.
We could go four hours.
But last conversation about Trump.
So you're not a fan of Trump.
Some would even say, you know, you have animosity towards him, maybe even hate towards him.
It's felt that way.
If I watch you in the interviews, where does your feeling towards?
Well, I don't.
I mean, I feel that Donald Trump should not be the president of the United States, is not the kind of person I would certainly elect as the president of the United States is not the kind of person who can carry out what I know to be the demands of being the president of the United States.
I mean, Donald Trump, I don't hate Donald Trump.
I have no personal animosity toward Donald Trump.
As a matter of fact, when we're together, we get along just fine.
And I've known Donald Trump for quite a long time back in New York days.
So I just feel that all of his impulses as the president of the United States are ultimately damaging and counterproductive.
You think some of these stories of Melania, how he met her and Epstein ties.
Do you think some of these could be coming from a place?
Because everybody tried to get him on Russia.
That came back.
That wasn't good.
Everybody tried to get him on all this stuff with 2024.
Hey, here's his mugshot.
And every single time, it seems like it's become the next hoax and the next.
So maybe people right now are saying, you really think there's any ties with Epstein and Trump?
Well, I'll be right back.
Well, there are clearly ties with Epstein and Trump.
But anything nefarious, nefarious.
Nefarious.
Well, it's how you define, I don't know.
This is what I know.
I won't even try to define.
That they were friends for well more than a decade, almost 15 years.
They were interested, both of them were interested primarily in the two things they were interested in were women, girls, and money, get rich, quick money stuff.
And the girls, women, girls they were interested in, obsessively so, fetishistically in a way, were models.
And remember, this was the age of the model.
Super models, runway models, catalog models, Eastern European models, and a wide population of girls who just dreamed of being models.
That's what they saw as status.
That was the thing that turned them on, I suppose.
You know, Trump's interest in beauty pageants, Epstein with Victoria's Secret Girls.
That's what they were in constant pursuit of.
And then people say to me, but you don't mean to say that Donald Trump was interested in little girls.
And I say, listen, what I know is they were interested in models.
How old are models?
Models certainly at that point in time were anywhere from, you know, I don't know, 14 to 20, basically.
When I hear models, I don't think 14 to 20.
I think, you know, 18.
Well, then you would be incorrect in that because that's what they were.
Yeah, no, I'm sure there's young models there.
I'm sure there's, and that's not what I'm saying, but what I'm saying is, you know, it's easy to, the gossip intel when they flirt with each other, right?
So that leads to accusations and then everyone's writing about it.
And the next thing, you know, like the story, you know, the story I read about Princess Diana, you know, the competition between the two.
Did you share that story or was that a story shared by somebody?
I did.
Would you mind sharing that story?
Well, that was just a kind of, you know, they were deeply interested in the royal family, both of them.
And why were they interested in the royal family?
Because the royal family was a great social climbing vector.
You remember, Donald Trump, both Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are always trying to raise money.
Where do we get money from?
And, you know, Donald Trump by that point had gone through several bankruptcies.
I mean, nobody at this point is blue chip.
So how do you raise money?
Fairly large sums of money.
Well, you raise money by knowing people who can give you access to money.
How do you know those people?
Well, there are lots of ways, lots of social climbing ways, but one of them, the best ways, is to know someone in the royal family.
So it was both Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein became in hot pursuit of access to the royal family, most successfully with Prince Andrew.
But at one point, then they had this competition.
And it was, you know, this was, I don't know how serious this was or how it was just to amuse them about who would be the first one to sleep with Diana.
This was after the marriage to Charles had basically broken up.
Did anybody win?
That I don't know.
I don't know if Jeffrey told you this, but Michael, We're at the time of one hour.
I want to respect your time and the calendar and schedule you gave me.
I appreciate the time.
I know it's not often you get on podcasts that are maybe not mainstream or somebody that could be potentially seen as the complete opposite side.
So I appreciate you for making the time.
I am delighted because I am, listen, many of the, most of the people I seem to spend my time with are actually Trump people who I have over 10 years, which is why I'm so well sourced, become very friendly with them.
I like Trump people.
Very cool.
I don't like Trump, but I like Trump people.
But you have good times with Trump.
So I don't know what happened there between the two of you guys.
It sounds like you enjoy his time.
You just maybe not like his policies.
And I always find, I mean, spending time with Trump is always certainly fascinating.
Makes sense.
Michael, till next time, thank you so much for your time.
We're going to put the link to all your books below as well for those who want to go pick up the books.
Thank you again.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represents who you are.
So for us, if you wear a future looks bright hat or a value tame gear, you're telling the world, I'm optimistic.
I'm excited about what's going to be happening, but you're a free thinker.
You question things.
You like debate.
And by the way, last year, 120,000 people got a piece of future looks bright gear with value tame.
We have so many new things.
The cufflinks are here.
New future looks bright.
This is my favorite, the green one.
Just yesterday, somebody placed an order for 100 of these.
If you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from.
White ones, black ones.
If you smoke cigars and you come to our cigar lounge, we have this high-quality lighter cutter and a holder for the cigars.
We got sweaters with the value tainment logo on it.
We got mugs.
We got a bunch of different things.
But if you believe the future looks bright, if you follow our content and what we represent with Value Taint, with PBD Podcasts, go to vtmerch.com.
And by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift insight just for you.
