PBD - Patrick Bet-David - "Couldn't Win Without Me" - Scottie Pippen BREAKS SILENCE On Jordan, NBA Legacy & Bulls Dynasty

Jan. 17, 2025 - PBD - Patrick Bet-David

02:04:21

"Couldn't Win Without Me" - Scottie Pippen BREAKS SILENCE On Jordan, NBA Legacy & Bulls Dynasty

In this explosive interview, NBA legend Scottie Pippen holds nothing back as he discusses the shocking decline of the NBA, criticizing the modern game for being too soft, Adam Silver's leadership, and the loss of millions of fans. Pippen dives into the impact of the 3-point era, the death of defense, and how today's stars like LeBron James and Victor Wembanyama lack the toughness of his era. He also reflects on his iconic run with the Chicago Bulls, his complicated relationship with Michael Jordan, the GOAT debate, behind-the-scenes drama, and how social media, politics, and player power have forever changed the NBA. Raw, unfiltered, and brutally honest—this is Scottie Pippen like you've NEVER heard him before. -------- 👕 GET THE LATEST VT MERCH: https://bit.ly/3BZbD6l 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": https://bit.ly/41rtEV4 📰 VTNEWS.AI: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3OExClZ 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: https://bit.ly/4eXQl6A 📱 CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4ikyEkC 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3ZjWhB7 🎓 VALUETAINMENT UNIVERSITY: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3BfA5Qw 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or 💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! TIME STAMPS: 00:00 - Podcast intro 05:45 – The SOFT Era of Basketball 12:10 – Michael Jordan vs. Today’s Stars 18:30 – Inside the Bulls Dynasty & Dream Team Drama 27:15 – How Social Media RUINED the NBA 44:56 – Pippen on Wanting to Be Remembered as the Greatest 46:57 – Frustration Over The Last Dance and Lack of Credit 51:08 – GOAT Debate: Pippen vs. Jordan vs. LeBron 56:04 – Would Jordan Win Without Pippen? 59:01 – Why Pippen Prioritized $100 Million Over Another Ring 1:13:12 – Pippen on Why He and Jordan Were Never Friends 1:19:16 – How Today’s NBA Lacks Toughness and Fan Connection 1:36:32 – Pippen on Zion Williamson and the Modern NBA Mindset SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @ValuetainmentComedy @theunusualsuspectspodcast @bizdocpodcast ABOUT US: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida

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	When your book came out, and I think you said something about how do you want to be remembered, and you said, I want to be remembered as the greatest of all time.
	You know, the reason why I say stuff like that is because when you play the game the way that I played it, why can't I say that?
	Oh, that's okay.
	You can say that.
	No one's saying you can't say that.
	Say it and mean it.
	Oh, so you do believe that I'm saying?
	Yeah, the stats.
	I got six rings too.
	Look at my accolades.
	I got defensive player all in BA.
	So playing the game the right way and winning means something to me.
	When's the last time you and Michael spoke?
	Did it end up being good, the conversation?
	Good and final.
	So when you guys played together, how often was it for you guys to have dinner together?
	Chicago has a lot of great.
	Scotty, stop it.
	Scotty, stop it.
	Would you put yourself ahead of LeBron as a team standpoint?
	I don't know.
	You want individual activities or you want championships?
	Because I didn't chase mine.
	So as a former fan of the NBA, I really wanted to have this conversation with Scotty because, look, I'm a diehard fan of the Last Dance documentary, the game, the fight, the greatness, what it took to win six championships.
	But today, he said some stuff I've never heard before.
	The amount, his relationship with Michael, the last time him and Michael spoke, how many episodes of the last dance he watched, and after which episode he stopped watching the last dance.
	And I asked him about the product of the NBA, why it's been down 48% the last 12 years.
	I played a clip of Colin Cowhert saying what he said, and his answer, he didn't hold back.
	He just straight up went to it.
	It got uncomfortable a couple times when we discussed the relationship with him and Michael.
	And he did not hold back.
	He was very respectful, yet at the same time, gave his perspective.
	I asked him, do you believe you're the greatest of all time?
	Because that's what you said in your book.
	And you have to watch that part.
	Then a couple funny stories.
	The cat story of Horace Grant, why he would mispractice.
	What happened with Isaiah Thomas and how a former guy who is no longer with us, he passed away in 2018, was a big part of influence and why Isaiah didn't play on the Dream Team 1992.
	And again, as an NBA fan, if you love the game and you love the 90s and you love seeing them dominate, whether you're a Knicks fan and you hated them, whether you're a Laker fan like me and you saw them lose to the Bulls, the Lakers, you're going to enjoy this conversation with the one and only Hall of Famer, number 33, Scotty Pippen.
	Did you ever think you would make it?
	No, this life meant for me.
	Adam, what you want?
	The future looks bright at table.
	Handshake is better than anything I ever saw.
	It's right here.
	You are a one-on-one.
	My son's a lot.
	I would have said this.
	Scotty, I think we're finally doing this.
	Yes, we are.
	This is actually happening.
	Yes.
	And for the viewers that are watching this, they have no idea that I told you.
	And we were, by the way, we started off with a heated debate.
	You missed it.
	The debate was over who's got the best voice in the NBA.
	You speak effortless, but you have these.
	I don't know if you've been told this.
	You got the best voice in the ABA.
	You said somebody else got the best voice.
	You give credit to somebody else.
	Well, you gave me the credit of having the best voice in association.
	So I said, yeah, I may have to give it to Dr. J.
	Yeah, you said Dr. J.
	And listen, we can say a lot of things to give credit to him.
	I played his voice.
	He doesn't have a Scottie Pippin voice.
	But it's great to have you here.
	I know we've spoken the last few years about having you on and, you know, book coming out, a bunch of different conversations we had.
	And, you know, the audience, there's certain people that don't need an introduction.
	Six championships, dream.
	I think you got two gold medals, if I'm not mistaken, seven-time all-star.
	Your career average was a two steals per game.
	I think you're seventh all-time, if I'm not mistaken in that category.
	That's not an easy stat as a catalog of your career to maintain a 2.0, two steals a game.
	There's a lot of things to be talked about with the things that you've done.
	But we've got a lot to talk about today, man.
	So I'm glad you're here.
	It's a pleasure.
	I want to start off with a very, we start off soft and we get tougher as the podcast gets ahead.
	So let's start off with something very soft.
	So when I look at the NBA, myself, as a guy that consumed the game 24-7, I never missed a game from the day I came to the States, 1990, till 98.
	I watched everything.
	I was a Lakers guy.
	So I'm talking Nick Van Anxel, Sadale Treat, if you know these names, Eldon Campbell, you know, I can give you some lineup of guys we watched that Eddie Jones, Trevor Riza came a little later, but I go all the way back.
	When you watch the viewership of NBA Finals, you guys, what you did, what Michael did, Chicago Bulls.
	I don't know what the number is, Rob.
	If you type in NBA Finals viewership, 38 million, 36 million, 32 million, and then you see the stats today, and the stats come out saying the NBA viewership is down 48% the last 12 years.
	I no longer watch the NBA.
	Okay.
	To me, they've lost me as a fan.
	You, as somebody who was face known worldwide, what happened to the NBA the last 10, 20 years?
	Well, I feel like that the game changed.
	It became more of a perimeter shooter game, if I could say that.
	And I think back, and I remember right when I was leaving the game early 2000, that the league promoted more scoring.
	They wanted to get more points up on the board.
	They felt like that would get the fans more engaged.
	Tail end of your career.
	Yes.
	Okay, I got it.
	So at that point to me, it started looking more like a game built for offensive players, guys that did play defense and took pride in playing defense were to some degree punished, I felt like, because everything was working in favor of the offensive player.
	And then they went, they put the circle in there where a guy is not allowed to take a charge at certain points in the lane, at a certain position in the lane.
	So I think a lot of things changing within the game.
	And a lot of it was for the good, looking at the physicality of the game as to where it was in the 90s.
	But I think a lot of that got wiped away.
	And I think that's where a lot of the fans lost interest in the game.
	So you're saying, because LeBron said the three-point game, right?
	A lot of people said the three-point game.
	You're saying the defense.
	Rob, I just pulled this up, which is a very interesting stat, by the way, based on what you're saying.
	I pulled up what your, the NBA averaged the least amount of points, okay, per game over the history of it.
	Rob, just pull up the link and put it up.
	Very, very interesting.
	The last year you guys won the championship together, was it 97.98 or 98.99?
	It was 97.98.
	97.98.
	So this is interesting.
	Zoom in a little bit, Rob.
	So if you look at the league right there and go on to the category of points, points is, keep going to the right, keep going to the right, keep going right there.
	There's points right there, right there.
	Okay.
	So watch that.
	In 2024, 2025, right now the NBA average is 113 points a game.
	Last year was 114, 115, 110.
	So since 2018, it's been averaging 111 points a game.
	Then if you go back to 2012, it was 98, 96, 99.
	Okay.
	If you go a little bit lower, keep going, Look at the 97.98.
	Now you see 92 points a game.
	That's 98.99, 95.6, 96.9, right?
	With the points per game.
	What else do you think it is that turned fans away from the game?
	Because to me, how much of it do you think?
	And I'll ask these questions, and you're probably going to be more diplomatic than me because you're in the game.
	How much of it do you think David Stern, what is the difference style of David Stern running the NBA versus an Adam Silver?
	I felt like David Stern era, he ran the game.
	I think Adam Silver's era, he's more or less allowing the players to have some input in terms of how the rules of the game are changing.
	Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
	Well, it looks like it's pretty bad, right?
	Okay.
	Oh, interesting.
	But I think from a standpoint of players being healthy, those are some precautionary measures that they've taken in the game where players don't like to play back to back.
	So I think it's a lot of things.
	I definitely feel like the three-point shot has turned fans away from the game because it's just no teamwork in shooting a three-point shot.
	There's no teamwork in coming down and taking a shot from behind the three-point line.
	But there's teamwork in coming down and executing a play.
	Everybody touches the ball and you get a bucket out of it, whether it's a two or a three.
	But it's something that drew fans, drew people to love the game, to love certain teams that played a certain way.
	And I don't think you see that in today's game.
	I feel like the last team that played with that kind of chemistry was the Golden State Warriors.
	They had sort of a team chemistry where they moved the ball, but it was about a lot of jump shooting, a lot of three-point shooters, but they had the greatest shooters in the history of the game.
	And they had the greatest shooters in the game at that time.
	So it was a great sight to really see a great team executing, playing together, and shooting the three-point shot.
	Well, in today's game, as we watch it, we don't see that great team chemistry of a team that has been doing this and have longevity of success.
	So it makes it hard for you to lock in and like what you're seeing.
	Yeah, that's, you know, it's funny.
	A few years ago, the NBA All-Star, probably five, six years ago, I don't know if you remember, Giannis had the team, LeBron had the team.
	In the fourth quarter, they were playing up to 157.
	Whoever hit 157 would win.
	I saw defense I hadn't seen since your era.
	It was amazing.
	You know, even Kobe would play the defense in what do you call it, in all-star game.
	You would see that element himself, McGrady, some of these guys would play.
	But in that moment, I'm sitting there thinking to myself as a fan, I'm like, why am I liking this?
	This is freaking amazing.
	So defense was very attractive to me because it's a fight, right?
	It's a fight that the other side is putting up.
	I want to ask you a question.
	When you were playing and you guys had fans in Chicago, you guys were, can we say that the 10-year run you had, you were like the Beatles.
	You were like Elvis Presley.
	You were like, is it fair to say no matter where you guys went, everybody wanted to see you guys?
	The show in town, no matter where you guys went.
	I would definitely say that's fair, but I would give a lot of the credit to Michael Jordan because of the fact that he had created something with the Chicago Bulls and that myself and other guys that came along, we built up on that.
	And it became in the late 90s when we got Dennis Robman on the team that we were or people looked at us as a rock band.
	And when we came to different cities, we had that kind of feeling that, you know, we had to put on a show, we had to perform.
	And that's why when you look at those teams, and especially my bull teams back there, there were no days off.
	You know, guys came to play where they were injured, sick, no matter what, because we felt like that we had to perform and that there were people coming out to watch us perform.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, when I watch it that way, and I see the numbers, you know, we're going to get into the debates of Michael, LeBron, Kobe, all this stuff.
	We'll get into that here in a minute.
	But the question I wanted to ask you is, when you guys played for the Bulls and politicians showed up, okay, say Republicans showed up, Democrats showed up, and they'd come and speak to you.
	And Michael made that one comment that we read about.
	I don't know if he said that or not.
	You know what I'm talking about where it's like, listen, Republicans also buy shoes too, right?
	And Obama in the last stance said, I was kind of disappointed that he didn't come and support that one candidate.
	And even Michael's mother wasn't happy.
	You know the story.
	I'm telling you stuff that you lived it.
	So I'm more the guy watching it from the outside.
	As a comparison of face of the league to face of the league, not talent.
	We're not talking like who's the better team player?
	Who's the better scorer?
	Who's more dominant?
	Who's a bigger winner?
	Michael to LeBron.
	How much of it do you think also the face of the league?
	MJ was the face of the league.
	Then maybe you put Kobe Shaq the next era.
	Then you put LeBron Curry the next era.
	As the face of the league, how much did Michael's approach to the fans cause people to come that could care less about politics, left, right, and center fall in love with it versus now the face of the league with social media?
	Some fans are like, if you don't like me, I don't even want to come contribute to watch a game anymore because you're kind of speaking to me in a way that you want to see me come watch and play.
	That specific debate, what did you notice between those two of gaining different fans?
	Well, I can say in today's era, especially with social media, players allow the public to know their personal things, whether it's political, financial, family, whatever.
	They allow the public to get involved in that.
	So when you asked me to make that comparison with Michael or LeBron, well, Michael never put himself in that position.
	I mean, his words speak for himself, for itself.
	I mean, he's never going to put himself in a position where you know his political thinking, his political mindset.
	He stays away from that.
	He's a basketball player.
	He's not a politician.
	He's not one that's going to get involved in any kind of debate.
	He's going to focus more on playing basketball and what it takes to win championships.
	And that's all he's going to speak around.
	Was he like that behind closed doors and on camera when he's being interviewed?
	Yeah, that was just his whole mindset because, you know, as we look at it today, he had a big engine, a big brand behind him that he's always had to protect.
	But like, you know, as a young guy, you're coming up when he would give you advice, like different things that you guys spoke about.
	You know, I know the one thing you talked about with when you went to the Rockets, he said, you should have never, we'll talk, you know, which one I'm talking about when he's like, you could have gone a different place.
	But did he give that feedback to guys coming up?
	Hey, guys, we don't talk politics here.
	Hey, guys, don't bring that kind of attention here.
	Because the head coach, Phil Jackson, when you study about him and back in the days when he played for the Knicks, you know, he played with a couple of guys that all they talked about in the locker room was politics.
	So you get a Phil who's very political, but he keeps it to himself.
	He's philosophical.
	You get a Michael.
	Was it one of those things that it's a code?
	We as a unit almost ran like a mob.
	We don't touch politics.
	We don't talk about it.
	Did he run it that way?
	I don't think he really ran it.
	I think he's just led by example.
	You know, if you don't speak it, then you know that that's not an area.
	That's a gray area that he doesn't want to talk about.
	And obviously, if any politician or anyone wants him to, you know, donate or do anything publicly, then he's never going to get involved with that.
	What a move to make.
	Good for him to make a move like that.
	Do you think that indirectly, that position helped the NBA grow its viewership because it attract all types of people?
	Yes, it did because like I said, in the 90s, we didn't have social media.
	So we didn't have a way to turn fans off, especially from a political standpoint.
	We didn't have a way to encourage them from a political standpoint.
	So we just had basketball, and it was a lot easier to focus on our craft and our job and grow from that.
	We didn't have a lot of the distractions that players have now with social media.
	We had a lot of newspapers.
	There were more magazines and things printing stories.
	But it takes weeks, days, months for those kind of stories to get out.
	Whereas social media, it's every day.
	It's 24-7.
	It's every 30 minutes, every minute, something's jumping off.
	Do you think if social media was there back then, like, you know, Ronaldo right now is the most followed guy.
	I don't know what he's got, 600 million followers, something like that on Instagram.
	If social media was around when you guys were playing, how big would you guys and would Michael have been?
	I mean, Ronaldo's got 647 million followers right now on Instagram.
	How big would it have been if social media was around when you guys were playing?
	Maybe Dennis Rodman would have had the most following.
	Who knows?
	Yeah, I mean, it would have been different.
	Definitely.
	You know, with looking at these numbers, you don't know how, you know, being a player that played in the 90s, how these numbers come about and, you know, what they really mean.
	Because we didn't grow up in this social media era, but definitely you know who you're talking about.
	You know that, you know, he's one of the greatest players, greatest athletes in the world.
	And 647 million speaks for itself.
	So you think Michael would have been there if social media was around at that time?
	Michael kind of took the NBA to it.
	I think he would have probably doubled that.
	I'm going to be honest.
	Seriously.
	I would say because basketball in the 90s when it first jumped off and, you know, just having social media back then would have just been amazing.
	You know, I remember in 1987 when I was drafted, that that's when the NBA signed an international deal with China where games were now being showed all over the world pretty much, definitely all over China.
	So the game was growing then.
	And, you know, at that point, I mean, Michael was four or five years already into the game.
	So I'm just speaking when I started in the league that, yeah, the growth of what I've seen in basketball, I've traveled all over the world from Italy, Germany, early 90s, late 80s, really talking about basketball, growing basketball, talking about the Olympics.
	And lo and behold, 1992, we're playing in the Olympics.
	And now, you know, 30 years later, you know, there's nothing but NBA players playing in the Olympics now.
	So things have changed.
	And, you know, players all around the world has definitely gained more confidence, more interest in playing in the NBA.
	That's amazing.
	Scotty, who were some people you saw?
	Because your last year was, was it 03-04?
	If I'm looking at this, 03-04.
	So 04 is when Barack gave the speech at the DNC when he blew up.
	That's when he came out and he gave one of the greatest speeches of all time.
	Did Barack ever come watch you play or did Trump ever come watch you play?
	Did you ever see either one of them at the games?
	No, I never seen any of them.
	Really?
	Neither one of them.
	No.
	Interesting.
	You know, Ben Barack was a Chicago guy.
	He probably watched from a suite or something from that standpoint if he came to the game, but I've never had met him at a game.
	Neither him nor Trump.
	No.
	So Trump never watched the Bulls?
	He had to have gone to a Bulls game.
	I doubt it.
	Really?
	So he's a New York guy.
	Well, if you go to the Knicks, I mean, that era of you guys going to the Knicks, it would have been something to want to watch when you guys were on the 19th.
	I stayed at a lot of Trump hotels back in my playing days.
	You stayed out of Trump Hotels?
	No, we stayed at.
	Oh, you stayed at Trump Hotels.
	Got it.
	What is that, Rob?
	Is that so he's out there Knicks against Bucks?
	Can you see if there's a Trump with Chicago Bulls, Trump watching Chicago Bulls?
	Just curious.
	Well, that's Trump in a Chicago Bulls jersey.
	That's funny.
	People.
	Okay, these are now, these are all AI-driven things that you've shown.
	Yeah, it's kind of hard to find something real.
	Who was a guy, first time you're playing?
	You're in there 87.
	I remember your rookie card, by the way, the rookie FLIR card, right?
	I remember what that looked like.
	So when you came in, who was the first guy at the game?
	We were like, oh, shit, look who's here today.
	Was this somebody you saw on the sidelines where you were a little bit shocked or not really?
	You were so focused on the game?
	I was more or less focused on the game, but there were times when, you know, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, who I'd never met, you know, playing in Chicago, would show up and be courtside, Oprah Winfrey.
	That's right, Chicago.
	Yeah, so back in the day, Gene Sisko, who was a very close friend of mine, some movie created, he passed away.
	God rest his soul.
	But, you know, I was never a guy that really focused on who was watching me play.
	I didn't care who was in the stands.
	I've always been a player that focused on the game, my team, the success, and how do we win?
	That's it.
	I don't care who's coming to watch.
	Let me ask you two of them.
	Let me ask you two of them and see if you, did you ever have Michael Jackson come watch the game or Prince, either one of those two?
	I think I had Prince.
	Well, I can't say I.
	I think Prince came to a game down in Minnesota.
	Prince did.
	Yeah, when we played to Timberwolves.
	I've never seen Michael at a game.
	You ever want to watch him perform?
	Did you ever go to one of his concerts?
	No.
	No.
	Okay, so for me, two regrets.
	I never got a chance to see Michael Jackson perform, and I never got a chance to watch you guys play.
	Wow.
	Ever.
	Ever.
	I never got a chance to watch you guys play.
	Yeah, that was one, 2000.
	Wow, it's been eight years already.
	That is absolutely wild that it's been eight years already.
	With interesting how fast time flies by.
	You mentioned Dream Team earlier, Kyle.
	With the Dream Team taking place, obviously we can go back to one of the topics that we followed very closely.
	That lineup right there.
	Who's on the team, by the way?
	So you got yourself, Stockton, Bird, Michael, Clyde Drexler, Mullen, Barkley, Malone, I think that's David Robinson, Magic, Ewing, and Leightner.
	You got Chuck Daley as a coach.
	And when you go back, and the main story that we hear about, there's two stories that we hear about.
	One story is the greatest game ever played that nobody ever saw.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	That story with where Magic is talking smack to Michael.
	What is your point of view of that game?
	Do you remember it?
	Well, you know, if you look at that, I was one of the youngest guys on that team, Beyond Leightner.
	But, you know, it was just one of those practices where, you know, guys just talking trash.
	Guys were excited to, you know, be in the gym for one and practicing.
	And, you know, Magic was one of those guys that, you know, he wanted to rah-rah and get everybody together, but also, hey, we're here to work.
	And so Magic made it a little more competitive and started kind of poking a little bit at Michael, letting him know, you know, I've been away and you got a championship, but hey, I'm still Magic and dah, dah, dah.
	And so it just kind of got a little bit heated.
	Nothing in a bad way, just one of those days where, you know, Michael put more energy on the basketball court than he did on the golf course.
	But yeah, he came out and, you know, was talking trash.
	And every day out the practice, we would go back to the rooms and play cards and just kind of sit around and talk and smoke cigars and things.
	What was your favorite memory of the dream team, 92?
	You know, it's just not one thing.
	Just being around guys who you looked at, who you idolized, and always wondered, you know, what make them tick, what make them go, what pushes them, what their daily workout is like.
	What do they do every day?
	And just kind of being in their surroundings.
	And I'm talking to everybody from Larry Bird, who was at the end of his career as well as Magic.
	Yeah.
	But just kind of being around those guys and finally getting to know them, not having to feel like it's a day where I got to guard Larry Bird.
	You know, it's a competitive moment.
	But having an opportunity to bond with them, to have breakfast with them, to meet their families, just to see what their lives are like away from the game.
	Just having an opportunity to say, I'm a friend of Larry Bird.
	You know, that's better than me going through my whole career and saying, hey, I played against Bird five times, you know, and yeah, he was tough.
	That opportunity to kind of break bread, to bond, it kind of opened up a different door for us, I guess, in the NBA world because we've never had that opportunity to really come together.
	It was always about competing.
	You know, you look at the Bulls and the Pistons, and there was never an opportunity for us to ever just come together and break bread and say, hey, we had some great competitive years, man, and this and that, just to talk basketball.
	But that moment to get all those players together and you build more respect for people too.
	You know, just after that, I mean, I had an opportunity.
	We played against Carl Malone and John Stockton twice after that, you know.
	So not only am I competing with them, you know, for an NBA championship, but I just won two gold medals with these two dudes, you know?
	So this is competitive, but it means something to both of us, you know, that, you know, we've gotten back to the finals, you know?
	Who did you learn a lot from?
	Who were you like, you know, you hear the documentary about when Dwayne Wade and LeBron, they said LeBron learned about work ethic of Kobe after going to the Olympics with him.
	He's like, I had no idea this guy worked.
	So I thought I was a hard worker, but then it's like, holy shit.
	This is how the guy trains.
	This is how he works.
	And you heard the stories from Carmelo and you heard the story from, was it Bosch?
	I think Bosch is the one that told one of the stories, right?
	When you went there, was it because I would assume on Michael's mindset of going there was to make sure he sets the record straight.
	It's my NBA.
	I'm here to set the tone, right?
	Because you guys had just won one, if I'm not mistaken.
	But when you're going there and you're trying to size some of these guys up as well, who did you learn a lot from where you're like, I had no idea that guy had that kind of work ethic?
	That guy was very disciplined.
	That guy doesn't drink.
	He never partied.
	He didn't come and do this.
	He had to get asleep.
	This guy had to do this.
	What patterns did you learn about some of your peers and competitors?
	Well, you definitely get a chance to see their work ethics away from the game because we definitely spent time together.
	But it gave me a chance to really bond with some guys that I probably thought I never would.
	I bonded with Carl Malone.
	I bonded with Patrick Ewan.
	We would work out together.
	So I got a chance to see what it's like working with these guys, not just on the court, but off the court, but having the opportunity to go do extra stuff on the basketball court to learn kind of what their extra work includes.
	What do they work on?
	What are their weaknesses?
	Who were you impressed by?
	Well, I was very impressed with Carl Malone in the weight room.
	He is a beast.
	Because of how much he pushed?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, he is just a beast.
	I mean, he stays in the gym four hours and just works until you can't pick up a cup of coffee.
	So that was him.
	Wow.
	Who was very disciplined with sleep and diet?
	I'm assuming Charles Barkley was very disciplined with eating and hanging out.
	I've just read about it.
	I would say someone who really focused on their diet probably was more like someone like Chris Mullen.
	Chris Mullen.
	Yeah.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	I'm just talking about conditioning.
	Like this guy, him and Patrick, they were just so focused on their conditioning every day, every day.
	Who talked the most shit?
	Who was like poking nonstop?
	Like outside of Michael.
	I'm assuming Michael was nonstop, but who else was like out of control talking smack?
	I mean, you got Charles Barkley who's doing that all the time.
	And then everyone's going to always throw up on him.
	Well, you don't have a championship.
	And then that's what he have to like tuck his tail between his butt and walk away.
	But at that time, we still had a lot of basketball left in our career.
	So Charles always had the comeback line that I'm going to get nines.
	So he was, he was at a disputed.
	You know what I like about Charles is, you know, when he, Shaq, and Kenny go at it and they do their debate, right?
	And he says what he says, he never takes it away from himself that he never won, meaning he doesn't give himself an out.
	No.
	He always calls himself out for not having won one.
	Yes.
	And you got to respect that because, you know, sometimes guys, they're asked questions.
	Hey, do you think if your legacy ends and you don't win a championship, you think it's impacted by it?
	You know, Barkley will say yes.
	And some guys will say, no, I'm still a great basketball player and all this other stuff.
	Do you think, do you think somebody, you seem like a nicer guy.
	You don't seem like a guy that wants to ruffle feathers.
	But do you think your career is tainted if at the end of your career you have that disclaimer that you never won a championship?
	I would say in certain situations, but in Charles Barkley's situation, I would say no.
	I would say no because he won two gold medals.
	He helped globalize basketball all over the world.
	He didn't have to play in but one NBA finals and he didn't win, but everybody knows Charles Barkley because of his personality, because of him working on TNT, but really because he was a heck of a basketball player.
	He was a great player and he probably deserved to win a title, ran into Michael and the Bulls.
	But Charles was a heck of a player and he's had a great career as an analyst as well.
	Oh, there's no question about it.
	On that area, he may be the discussion as the most entertaining one that gets the most eyeballs.
	He's got to be up there, right?
	As what he's done with that area of his career.
	But I don't know.
	I think Charles would say, you're right.
	And he would take that as a compliment.
	And he would still say, I wish I would have won one.
	I think that's what he would have said.
	But, you know, from his standpoint, and again, that's the part when I watch and Shaq says, I got four, you got zero.
	He's such a great example on that side that he still puts the pressure of not having won one.
	Chuck.
	Yes.
	By the way, for yourself, with the game that you played, opponent and staying on this dream team side conversation that we're having.
	You know, for those who are NBA fans, they remember when those guys beat you guys up every season.
	And Tim Grover is a friend where Tim comes in and, you know, he starts training.
	You see the videos with Michael and him and all this other stuff.
	And he learns he has to kind of get stronger to get through the middle because those guys aren't, you know, one of my favorite.
	I would play the footage, but we can't because it's the NBA footage.
	The one where Michael comes in over Ewing and he scores with, I think it's Xavier McDaniel and just kind of puts the, he looks at him and just kind of, you know, celebrates to say he's got the strength now.
	You can't bully him anymore.
	So puts his head against, you know, I've probably seen that four minute and 40 second clip of them going against the Knicks when he says, I asked my dad, what should I do?
	Take the lead.
	And if they don't follow, you know, whatever, you at least will be able to look back.
	And he gets into Xavier's face right here.
	I freaking have watched this thing a few thousand times and just getting into his eyes to tell him, hey, we're not afraid of you.
	Such a beautiful thing.
	But for you guys going up against Pistons and then coming back and, you know, winning and then them walking off, we've heard Michael's version, okay, of the reason why Isaiah didn't make it on the dream team.
	Stats, overqualified.
	Championships, overqualified.
	Numbers he put up, I mean, Isaiah Thomas, I think one season put up 388 or 288.
	He put up some numbers that just made no sense.
	Maybe it was even 32, 8, 8.
	Can you put Isaiah Thomas stats?
	Just type in Isaiah Thomas stats if you could.
	And go down to keep going lower.
	Let's see.
	Let me see what the points per game is, Rob.
	If you can zoom out a little bit to see points.
	Go lower, go lower, 288.
	He had one season that the numbers, and maybe that's Larry Bird that put up the stats like that.
	But this guy was a two-time champion.
	Yeah, I mean, his numbers are based on his scoring and his assists.
	If you're having 20 points and 10, 11, 12, 13 assists, then that's 30 points.
	Did you know the story that what he did that day, not shaking hands, getting off the field, lamb beer, all of that stuff, you know in Michael, you're like, yeah, he's not going to be on the – did you know that story behind closed doors?
	You know, when that happened, that had nothing to do with the dream team.
	That was in 91.
	That was our first title.
	So I don't even think I was on the dream team at that time.
	The dream team stuff came up in 92 or, you know, right as that season was starting to get underway.
	But I'm talking like Isaiah not being there, and you guys are playing, you know, and the guys are talking to one another.
	Some guys are also kind of like, wow, he's here, but Isaiah's not here.
	Was it a known fact that Isaiah wasn't on because of Michael?
	Because the coach was, I mean, who was your coach?
	You guys had the coach that.
	I think it was a known fact that he wasn't on the team.
	I can't say why he wasn't on the team.
	I can't even point out that say that any individual put him off the team.
	You know, basketball is a game built on relationships.
	And that team was put together based on relationships, players that they felt could get along, players that they felt could play together, and players that they felt like could contribute in the right way to win a gold medal.
	And you know what?
	Dominique Wilkins was left off of that team.
	And I personally feel as bad as anyone to see a guy who I idolized, who I looked up to, who I guarded, who I defended numerous amount of times not be a part of that team.
	But I didn't want to sacrifice my seat to give it up to him.
	But with all respect, I felt like he deserved to be on that team as well.
	Not just Isaiah.
	Yeah, but the biggest thing to me is like, it's the head coach is Chuck Daly.
	He is Isaiah's coach, right?
	I mean, he's the guy that they went together with.
	You mean to tell me like either David Stern is not a fan of Isaiah to say, I'm going to pick Chuck and you're not going to get in.
	I mean, that's like a, so to me, it almost has to be a David Stern thing that says, you didn't represent someone like this.
	You disrespect the NBA tradition.
	I'm going to not put you there.
	And I'm going to put your coach and Michael.
	And this will be a taint as the greatest team ever put together.
	You want a part of.
	That's what I'm trying to say because I see David Stern as a boss.
	I will not let you say that because I don't think that would be fair.
	David Stern has nothing to do with USA basketball.
	So I will correct you on that one.
	No.
	He gave them the nod that they could use NBA players.
	But I don't think when it comes to picking the team, selecting the players.
	So as an amateur, he's educating who picks the teams.
	Well, it's the people at USA Basketball.
	Who was running the USA basketball at the time?
	This is something like for me as a fan, I'm trying to get away from the team.
	So you're going to have to do your research.
	Figure out.
	I feel like you, listen, I feel like you're USA Basketball 1992.
	CM Newton.
	CM Newton.
	Okay.
	So that's his name.
	CM Newton was the president of basketball in 1998.
	During this tenure, he was in Surrey on the decision to allow professional basketball players to come, which led to the creation of the Dream Team.
	He served as the assistant coach of 1984 Olympic gold medal.
	I think Jordan was on that team, if I'm not mistaken, and was a major influence on the 92, served on NCAA committees, coached at Alabama Vanderbilt before coaching, played basketball, football, and baseball at Fort Lauderdale High School.
	Shout out to Fort Lauderdale.
	Yes, sir.
	Played on state championship in basketball.
	So then I got to, Rob, you got to do this because Scotty is now trying to turn us into a research team.
	Did C. M. Newton influence Isaiah Thomas from not making the dream team?
	Maybe even ask Chad GBT, maybe dream team.
	What is it?
	AI answering this one?
	Let's see.
	Yes, according to reports, C.M. Newton, who was the head of selection committee in 1992, is considered to have a role in Isaiah not being selected as there were strong indications that Michael Jordan, a key player, would not participate if Thomas was on the team and Newton reportedly facilitated that decision by not pushing for Isaiah's inclusion.
	Michael Jordan, most accounts point to Michael Jordan's alleged opposition to Isaiah Thomas being on the dream team as a primary reason for his exclusion.
	How close was CM Newton to David Stern?
	Were they friends or no?
	I don't know.
	I would have to say there's probably some respect there.
	Got it.
	But yeah, that's the guy that put the team together.
	Well, if I say that.
	And when people say Michael did this or they didn't put him on the team because of the Bulls, whatever, CM Newton was a fan of the game, just like you were.
	He saw the bad blood between the Bulls and Pistons.
	So how can he put all, mix oil and water together?
	Yeah, let me tell you, if you really want to get back at Isaiah, you pick his coach, you pick Michael, and you have videos circulating all over the world of Chuck and Michael golfing.
	If you really, really want to get under someone's skin, I got to tell you, this CM Newton guy is extremely creative to have thought.
	Obviously, he passed away six years ago.
	May God bless his soul.
	But if he was that much of a mastermind, by the way, you know, for me, you know, when you're running a company and you're making decisions sometimes and you know there's bad blood with somebody, let's just say somebody took advantage of another guy or somebody did something that didn't meet the traditions of a company, you have to set the example and represent the guy that's setting the better example.
	So I think the right move was made here.
	And if Michael was not happy about it, you want him to go and play in the dream team and you have experience with him from 1984.
	I didn't know the connection with him and Michael from 1984.
	But listen, by the way, Rob, moving forward, the head of our research team for the NBA is going to be Scottie Pippen.
	That's just moving forward.
	That's what we're doing.
	Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represents who you are.
	So for us, if you wear a future looks bright hat or a value-taming gear, you're telling the world, I'm optimistic.
	I'm excited about what's going to be happening, but you're a free thinker.
	You question things, you like debate.
	And by the way, last year, 120,000 people got a piece of future looks bright gear with value tamement.
	We have so many new things.
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	But if you believe the future looks bright, if you follow our content and what we represent with value tame, with PBD podcasts, go to vtmerch.com.
	And by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift insight just for you.
	So again, go to vtmerch.com, place your order, tell the world that you believe the future looks bright.
	So talking about, you know, moving forward about talking about, you know, the stream team, Michael, all this stuff.
	I've noticed, you know, I've watched some of your stuff.
	I even DM'd you one time and we went back and forth on the exchange.
	That was between us.
	But when your book came out and you came out with the book came out, I think you said something about how do you want to be remembered?
	And you said, I want to be remembered as the greatest of all time.
	And this was the Unguarded.
	And this came out November 9th, 2021.
	If I'm not mistaken, the last dance came out during COVID.
	Was it April of 2020?
	I couldn't even tell you when the last dance came out.
	If you want to type in the last dance 2020 premiere, there it is.
	Okay, April 19th, 2020, which, by the way, the timing of that documentary couldn't have been better than the way it did right after COVID, because we all watch a Sunday night, two episodes for five weeks straight.
	So you were glued to the screen, eight o'clock East Coast till 10 o'clock.
	And I'd bring the guys to my theater room.
	We'd sit there, watch that documentary together.
	It was epic.
	But when you said that, this is the one part that I'm really curious from your end.
	You said, I want to be remembered as the greatest of all time.
	And there was kind of a little bit of the conflict where you were not happy about the last dance, about the stuff that was said, and maybe not enough being covered with you guys.
	You saying, I want to be remembered as the greatest of all time.
	How much of that was really what you believed in?
	How much of that was you trying to sell a book?
	And how much of that was somebody behind closed doors flattering you saying you didn't get enough credit for what you did during the Chicago's run?
	I think it's just me believing in myself and the way that I played the game.
	That I did it the right way.
	I did it where I won.
	I played the right way.
	My teammates loved the way that I played.
	And people, my peers respected the way that I played.
	And I feel like that I got out of the game everything that I put into it.
	You know, I was a guy that I was a walk-on.
	You know, I was a guy that went to three camps just to get drafted and ended up being the fifth pick.
	So I feel like the work that I put in over 15, 20 years, you know, before and during my professional career, that I played the game the right way.
	That I played it where I showed younger players.
	how to be successful and how to enjoy the game.
	I showed men's women who is not as athletic how to play the game and to play it the right way and to play it from a team standpoint.
	Yeah, but to say you know the technicalities of this game.
	And you know during a moment like that, like, you know, the biggest debate is always who's the greatest of all time?
	And Last Thanks comes out and a lot of people, well, you know, Michael didn't highlight you.
	Michael didn't highlight Horace Grant and Horace wasn't too happy about it.
	And, you know, I remember when Horace was in the league with him and his brother, right, if I'm not mistaken, his brother's name was what, Brian?
	I think it was Harvey Grant, right?
	And he played for the Bullets, I think.
	I don't know what it was called back then.
	I think it was the Bullets, if I'm not mistaken.
	Also, a big guy.
	Yeah, Harvey Grant.
	He played at the Blazers, but I think he started off with the Bullets, if I'm not mistaken.
	Yeah, he's a brother.
	And by the way, I thought Horace was great because I think Horace came to the Lakers as well one season or two and he had a pretty good run there as well.
	So when you're going through it and you say something like that, I think this is a part where for someone like you that has been as involved in the NBA drama, positive drama, not negative drama.
	We're not talking about like, you know, drugs and stuff like that.
	I'm talking positive drama, the NBA that makes the NBA exciting, that people want to talk about.
	You know the weight behind you saying the greatest of all time.
	Personally, I'm wondering, was it you fully believe?
	Because you've made some arguments that, you know, sometimes LeBron is a more complete player than Michael.
	You've had those types of discussions.
	Remember, I watch you.
	You don't watch me.
	I watch you way more than you watch me.
	So I've seen you say stuff.
	You're Scotty Pippen.
	You're not just a regular player that played in the game.
	You're a Hall of Famer top 50.
	And arguably, when we put our starting five together, dude, I want you on my team because I want somebody that plays defense the way you do.
	That's an all-around guy that as a defensive player, dude, you, I can only imagine in practice how what's guarding Michael every freaking day in practice.
	What is that going to do to you?
	That's a scary job to have to get better at that, right?
	But you said the greatest.
	So when I see a fall sometimes or I see something, it's people are my ear.
	And sometimes the hardest thing to do in life, I saw my parents get a divorce.
	And when they got a divorce twice and they remarried each other, each family was saying, she doesn't appreciate you enough.
	He doesn't appreciate you enough.
	And this flattery is divisive to put a little wedge between you.
	I know it's not a comfortable thing to probably talk about, but did any of that happen where someone was saying, come on, Scotty, Michael would have never won six without you.
	Come on, Scotty.
	And Michael said it himself, but from your standpoint.
	No, it's that's you know the reason why I say stuff like that is because when you play the game the way that I played it, you play on both ends.
	Why can't I say that?
	Oh, that's okay.
	You can say that.
	No one's saying you can't say that.
	Yeah, and say it and mean it.
	Oh, so you do believe that.
	I'm saying?
	Yeah.
	Look at the stats.
	I got six rings too.
	Look at my accolades.
	I got defensive player all NBA.
	So playing the game the right way and winning means something to me.
	And it meant a lot to me.
	I don't have the MVPs, but guess what?
	Somebody that was with me got it.
	Would you say?
	I don't, I didn't have the final MVP, but hey, we won the championship.
	I get that, but that could be to say you are.
	Well, here's my thing is, to me, before the 90s, before the 90s, I had never in my life heard anything about a GOAT in basketball.
	Interesting.
	Really?
	Never.
	I had never heard anyone say, who's the greatest player in the NBA?
	Scotty.
	Before the 90s.
	Who was that guy then?
	If you had heard that, who was that guy?
	And why is he not being mentioned today?
	I would say the debate pre-90s, you got to realize, I'm in the Middle East during that time.
	I understand that.
	The greatest basketball player in Iran was probably a different guy.
	But if I were to say the discussion, when I hear that one time that I don't know if it's NBA was celebrating the top 50 greatest players of all time and Wilt and Michael are in the corner having a heated debate, this is a story I've read about.
	I don't know if that's true or not, but I've read about it in many different places.
	Let me just go back a little further.
	Please.
	Let's go back to the 80s.
	Okay.
	Before the 80s.
	Let's go in the mid-80s.
	Who was the GOAT?
	During that era of all time.
	Of all time.
	I would say there's a strong argument at that time for Wilt being the greatest of all time.
	Because the Lakers hadn't yet gone on their dominant, destroyed opponents.
	So why is he not mentioned now?
	Why is he not?
	I don't even hear about him now.
	Oh, I mentioned Wilt.
	I mean, you're talking about the guy that has.
	He got 13 rings.
	Well, no, he didn't get 13 rings.
	Russell got you're talking about Russell.
	I mean, Russell, yeah.
	Yeah.
	I'm talking Wilt.
	Well, Russell got the 11 and the two additional ones.
	Yeah, 13 rings.
	But there's a difference because we can say Ori got seven, right?
	Ori's not in the discussion of all time.
	But Ori wasn't the face of the team and Ori.
	So what's the credentials to be that guy?
	To be the greatest of all time?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	That's a great conversation.
	I'm curious to know what you say.
	I'm a fan.
	I'll give you my opinion, but I want to hear from you.
	I don't think it exists in team sports.
	I don't think it exists in team sports.
	Okay.
	You don't think it exists in team sports?
	No.
	Can I push back?
	Yes, please.
	So there's a part of me that agrees with you in certain games, sports.
	For example, it's very tough for baseball.
	I don't know if you're a baseball guy or not, but in baseball, if you say who's the greatest of all time, you could say Bay because he was a two-way player and he hit the 700-plus.
	He had 60 home runs in a season.
	You could say Barry Bonds, but Barry didn't win the chips.
	And his career in the playoffs, a suspect.
	You could say Willie Mays, 660, defensive player.
	My argument is Willie.
	When I have the conversation, it's Willie.
	But then you could say you forgot about all the pitchers.
	Here's my punchback at that.
	Did Barry Bond ever strike anybody out?
	No.
	So what did he do on the other side of the field to make him the greatest?
	He was a golden glove guy.
	He was a good, but he didn't strike people out.
	But I think it's a different game in baseball than basketball.
	I think in basketball, you know, when I think about basketball, Okay, so maybe let me play this game in a different way with you.
	You're an NBA owner, Scotty.
	We're going to play a game called NBA draft pick.
	Yeah.
	Who's your number one draft pick to put a team together?
	Which era?
	Any era.
	Today, to play today, who do you pick as your number one draft pick?
	In today's era, player, I'll take Wimbiama, the young player with San Antonio.
	So you're all time to pick your number one draft pick, you pick Wemby one.
	Wow, who's two?
	Well, you're saying now, so I got to look at this era and say, hey, this kid, young, he's got one year.
	Yeah, I've been.
	So you think Wemby Wemby in this era does better than Michael would do in this era?
	Well, you asked me this era.
	That's why I asked you.
	I got you.
	Which era?
	I'm sorry.
	Do all time.
	Do all time.
	Then I'm going to pick my era.
	Okay.
	I'm going to pick the team that won six titles.
	Who's your number one draft pick player?
	I'm going to pick Michael.
	Okay.
	Who's your two?
	I'm going to pick me.
	I agree.
	Who's your three?
	To put a team that wins.
	Who's your three?
	I'm going to pick Dennis or Horace Grant, whichever era.
	I see what you're doing.
	I see.
	Okay, so let's just say Dennis is three.
	Who's your four?
	Don't matter.
	Give me any about it.
	I'll take you.
	So let me get this straight.
	So your mindset is you, Michael, and Dennis will beat any team that anybody puts together.
	We did it for three years.
	Twice.
	No, I did it with Horace the first time, but yeah, me and Michael did it.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	That's fair enough.
	I'm sorry.
	Yeah.
	So that's why he said Dennis or Horace.
	Okay, but if you're, and I want to qualify this because to me, that could still be a safe space answer because you're still saying that I'm picking us against anybody else.
	Right.
	I'm picking the greatest team against anybody.
	Yeah, but when you say you're the greatest of all time in the GOAT debate, that's still saying that you're ahead of Michael.
	So your position is still in the game of NBA.
	You're the greatest of all time all-around.
	I'm speaking from a team standpoint.
	Would you put yourself ahead of LeBron?
	Would you put yourself ahead of LeBron as a team standpoint?
	My success as a team is more successful than LeBron.
	I got six rings.
	Okay, so then if I talk to an NBA owner, by the way, this is very helpful because this is very helpful because for me as a fan, I've followed this.
	So if I speak from an NBA standpoint, owner, and I want to find an all-around player to be my number one, you think the average owner is going to pick you or LeBron?
	I don't know.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So that.
	You want individual accolades or you want championships?
	Because I didn't change mine.
	Okay.
	And that's an argument that LeBron went to Miami.
	He went back to Cleveland to win with Kyrie and he went back to L.A. to win with Anthony Davis.
	All our, you know, Michael never had teammates like that, and you only had Michael as a teammate.
	But in this specific context, Scotty, I think this is very important because I'm really trying to understand your position.
	Is specific with you against Michael?
	You're still saying Michael's the greatest of all time, but maybe you're saying you're the greatest teammate of all time.
	Would that be a better way of qualifying it?
	I would say if you want to say it that way.
	But again, team sports to me, there's no GOAT.
	There's great teams.
	But as an individual, you got to go to individual sports.
	Yeah, I think, okay, so maybe.
	Well, I mean, the fact that I asked you to draft, who would you pick as number one, just by you saying Michael won this era.
	Right.
	But if you ask me to pick a team, NBA, then I'm going to pick my era and my team.
	That's the most dominant team that's played in the game.
	There's no team that's done what the Bulls done.
	You picked Michael ahead of you, though.
	So that, in essence, you're saying Michael's the greatest of all time.
	Well, he's older than me, so he would have been in the game.
	You're so funny.
	Scotty, I am really trying to pick.
	You want me to pick you up?
	You are so funny, Scotty.
	You are so funny.
	You're so funny.
	So, okay, so you're saying era.
	Wemby in your era, Michael in this era.
	Who does better?
	Wimby in this era and Michael in this era.
	So no, no, no.
	Wemby goes to your era.
	Oh.
	And then Michael comes to this era.
	Who does better?
	Probably Michael.
	Michael would do better in this era.
	Okay, so let's go to the next one.
	LeBron in your era with Michael.
	Michael in LeBron's era.
	Who does better?
	Probably Michael.
	Okay.
	And then with Kobe, I'm assuming you're going to say Michael of Michael and Kobe's era.
	It's kind of the same.
	I would probably still say Michael would do better because remember, Michael era, my era early on, very physical, 85, 90-point games.
	That's right.
	Different.
	That's right.
	In today's game, we're looking at some games that'll get to 130, 140.
	And so I think Michael would have strived off of just being free, open, not having the physicality that he had to play with it night in and night out.
	Michael in the 70s era.
	Would he dominate it?
	I didn't play in the 70s, but I got to imagine that the game was even just as physical as it was in the 80s.
	Less rules, right?
	It was more fights.
	Guys were, you know, it was a very physical era.
	Yeah.
	And I mean, I think he would have had success in that era, but the game has changed tremendously.
	And from the ball handling to the steps that the players take.
	So, you know, when you ask me that, how successful would he have been in the 70s?
	I don't know how the officiating would have officiated him.
	Scotty, when are you running for office?
	Because your answers are so diplomatic.
	Let me tell you, man, if you're running for office, listen, you said Reverend Jackson, who was it that you said somebody's got to call you and help Scotty campaign for something here next to the league?
	Nothing political.
	Only reason I'm saying is I'm teasing him, but your answers are, you know.
	But I see a lot of changes in the game when I watch it.
	And I'm sure you, it's probably what turned you off is that players are now allowed to take three steps going to the basket, you know?
	And so you wonder, you're like, wow, that's not a traveling.
	But it's not.
	Yeah, it's a different game.
	It's just not as exciting to me, though.
	Let me ask you this question.
	You have one of two choices.
	Which of these two would you rather have?
	Would you rather have won a ring without Michael, or would you rather have made an additional $100 million while you played in the NBA?
	Give me that $100 million.
	Seriously.
	I got a gold medal ring without Michael.
	So that did mean a lot.
	But yeah, definitely would have loved to play.
	No hesitation.
	In this era.
	Would you have rather won that season where you guys got, what, 47, 48 wins?
	You guys went.
	I think you went to the Eastern Conference Finals, if I'm not mistaken.
	Would you have rather won that year or that additional 100 million?
	Oh, I would have taken that $100 million.
	How about additional $50 million or that ring?
	I don't know.
	Maybe I'll take the ring.
	Interesting.
	So the number is what matters.
	The 100 million?
	It matters to be known as the best.
	It matters to be the best.
	It pays to be at the top.
	Scotty, so let's just say, let's just say you, let's change this.
	I got a weird question for you.
	I guarantee you're not expecting this question to come to you.
	You ready?
	Yes, sir.
	You ready for this one?
	Okay.
	So the great Dominique Wilkins, when he played for the Atlanta Hawks, I think he averaged 35 points a game at one season, and he had multiple 30-point season games.
	I think he was the only guy that outscored Michael in scoring.
	If I'm not mistaken, can you pull up Dominique Wilkins' stats?
	Trust me, I was the one he was giving all those numbers to.
	Go to the NBA reference.
	It does a better job showing the stats than this one.
	Just go to NBA.
	Yeah, stats and a goal lower.
	Keep going lower, lower, lower.
	Go to that one right there.
	That's the one I like the way they break down stats.
	Okay, zoom in a little bit.
	Zoom in a little bit.
	Thanks, Rob.
	Okay, points per game.
	Look at that right there.
	30.3 was the 85, 86 season.
	That's the year I think Michael was hurt when he averaged 30 and he got second in MVP voting, right, that season, but right after 29, 30.7.
	And then he loses to Michael every year, except for the year that Michael was.
	And then rebounds.
	Look at that.
	30 points a game, 7.9 rebounds, 1.8 steals.
	This guy was a monster.
	Absolute monster of a guy.
	And field goal, he was at that time 47%.
	That three-point era wasn't a three-point era.
	What was his free throw?
	Oh, shoot, 82%.
	Damn, good for you.
	Okay.
	So here's a crazy question for you.
	You ready?
	The Bulls don't draft you.
	You get drafted to the Atlanta Hawks.
	It's you, Dominique, Kevin Wilkins.
	Michael doesn't pick you up.
	The Bulls get, can you go to the 87 draft?
	Go to the 1980s.
	What a game we're playing here.
	1987 NBA draft.
	Zoom in.
	Okay, so where are you picked?
	You're number five.
	Okay.
	So Michael and the team, they pick up Kenny Smith.
	Obviously, it's not up to him, but say you go to somehow, some way you end up with the Atlanta Hawks and Kenny Smith goes to the Bulls.
	How many championships do you guys win at the Hawks and how many championships does Michael win without you going there?
	I still get my six.
	Stop it, Scotty.
	3-3.
	I thought you knew.
	I know the number.
	Trust me.
	I know the number.
	So you'd win six, you're saying?
	Yes.
	How many does Michael win?
	Maybe he may be somewhere with LeBron.
	2-3 somewhere.
	LeBron's got four now.
	Oh, LeBron got.
	I thought he had five.
	No, he's got four.
	He won two with Miami, one with Cleveland, one with the Lakers.
	Now you're throwing me off right now.
	How many did he win?
	I am throwing off.
	No, no, he won four.
	He won four.
	He won four.
	He's four and six in a final, if I'm not mistaken.
	I don't know.
	I would say, I don't know.
	I feel like I'm going to give my six.
	So you, Wilkins, Dominique, say Michael gets Michael, Horace, and Kenny.
	You're still getting your six.
	Yeah, they can't stop me.
	Who's going to stop me then?
	That is such an interesting conversation that we just went into.
	Just because the comments.
	So, okay, so take Dominique out.
	Put you Drexler.
	Put you, Drexler, and Michael gets.
	Let's put Michael and Rob, can you pull up top?
	I'm trying to see who I would pick here.
	Let's put Michael, top defensive players, NBA 90s.
	NBA 90s.
	Yeah, 90s NBA.
	You got to put NBA, though.
	NBA.
	Yeah, there you go.
	Can you zoom in a little bit?
	I don't want to look, you're right there.
	That's why I said Drexler.
	So, man, NBA defense.
	Okay, go to 1990 rating right there.
	Elijah Robinson, Lambert, Rodman, Malone.
	Zoom in a little bit, Rob, if you could.
	Mark Eaton, Jung.
	So it's always going to be the centers, but go Jerome Kersey, Clyde Drexler.
	Okay, you and Clyde Drexler.
	I'm trying to get Michael somebody.
	Keep going, Laura.
	Is that all?
	Okay, keep going, Man, see, that's the thing.
	The thing with you is I was a pretty good fit.
	Oh, understatement.
	Understatement.
	But you and Drexler, Michael and Barkley, because Barkley was a BMF.
	Oh, he was a beast.
	You and Drexler, Michael, and Barkley.
	Who would have had more chips?
	I don't know.
	I think me and Drexler might get him.
	Stop it.
	I don't know if Michael will be able to keep his thumb on top of Charles.
	Really?
	Yeah, I don't know if he can hold Charles down.
	Meaning, keeping him coachable?
	Yes, for a season to win a championship.
	I see what you're saying.
	Okay, so keeping him disciplined to be a good Robin.
	Yeah.
	Very interesting that you're saying that.
	I still like my geniuses.
	This just got very interesting for me.
	Okay, so disciplined Michael and Carl Malone.
	You and Drexler.
	Because Carl Malone's disciplined.
	He scored 32.
	I think 30.
	I may give them the edge.
	You may give him the edge.
	Yeah, Carl's a tough matchup.
	Okay.
	This just got very interesting, Scotty.
	Yeah.
	So, wow.
	So I learned if you have to choose between $100 million and winning a championship without Michael, you take the $100.
	But if it's 50, it looks like you did accounting in your mind.
	You're like, 50 million, 50% taxes, agent 20 ends up to me.
	I'll take that chip.
	That was interesting.
	And then Dominique just got into the conversation today and Drexler and a bunch of these other guys.
	When's the last time you and Michael spoke?
	Right around the pandemic.
	Oh, so it's been a minute since you.
	Is that the text exchange when he shot you text May of 2020 and he said, hey, Scotty, I heard you're upset.
	Let me know when you have a minute to speak.
	Is that the last time you guys spoke?
	Something like that.
	Something like that.
	Did you actually call him?
	Like, did you guys talk or did you just text him?
	No, I think we end up speaking briefly.
	Did it end up being good, the conversation?
	Yeah, I guess.
	Good and good and final.
	That's what it was.
	Good and final.
	Because of you or because of him?
	I just, yeah.
	Yeah, I don't want to pick because of who.
	It's just good and final.
	What's more likely to happen?
	Me going to Carbone in the next five years, Carbon in Miami.
	I don't know what's your favorite restaurant.
	Let's say Flagler's and Palm Beach, because it's closer to golf.
	Is it more likely of me seeing Michael and Barkley having dinner at Flagler's in Breakers, Palm Beach?
	Or is it more likely for me to see you and Michael having dinner in the next five, ten years at Flagler's?
	I don't know what kind of dream you be having.
	What do you think, though?
	Which of those two is more likely to happen?
	There's a Vegas odds.
	Like, we're trying to bet some money here on this one.
	I don't know.
	That's a tough one.
	I don't spend that much time in Florida, so I would probably say maybe highly likely, maybe Charles.
	Over you.
	Yeah.
	Got it.
	It's that's that's wild.
	And would you say a big part of it is the last dance and how that was portrayed?
	Would you say that was it?
	Would you say because I sit there and I watch, you know, for me, Kobe.
	I had Kobe at one of our late Kobe.
	I love Kobe.
	Kobe and I are six weeks apart, our birthdays, and I watched him play.
	We had a relationship at the tail end of his, not even career, his life.
	And it was a great moment.
	And he said some stuff about Shaq, and then Shaq and I had a conversation together years later, and it was great.
	And my son till today, he's met a lot of different people.
	His favorite athlete he likes to talk about is Shaq.
	Shaq is his, Dylan loves Shaq.
	Yeah, that's true.
	So, and then when you saw that one interview with Shaq and Kobe, they're sitting across from each other, right?
	That conversation that took place.
	And then you saw one with Magic and Isaiah.
	I don't know if you remember those interviews that they did like 10 years ago, something like that, eight years ago, 10 years ago.
	It was great to see Shaq and Kobe together.
	It was great to see Isaiah and Magic together.
	Isaiah got emotional and he got up and they hugged each other and you know that whole thing with the two of them.
	Why is the tension so high with anything related to Michael?
	You and Michael, Barkley and Michael?
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, I just think that Michael is a very difficult person to deal with.
	I've played with him for years, so I know that, you know, when it's time for you to move in your direction, then go in your direction.
	Don't sit there and try to procrastinate or stretch it, that the relationship is not where it was or not what it used to be, and it's never going to be the same.
	So why try and make something out of nothing or try to make something that was never there?
	So.
	Yeah.
	Great, great teammate, but just we just never were great friends.
	Never, even when you guys played.
	No.
	So when you guys read the dream team, that one clip when Ahmad Rashad asks and says, you know which one I'm talking about, when Ahmad says, hey, Michael, question for you.
	Three seconds left, fourth quarter.
	Who do you want to get the ball to go shoot whatever?
	And he says, me.
	You know which clip I'm talking about?
	And he says, Ahmad Rashad and he says, yeah.
	No, you?
	He says, yeah, what kind of a question is that?
	And then you guys are getting off the bus.
	He says, Scott, this is the one right here.
	Don't play the clip.
	Actually, you know what?
	You may be able to play the clip.
	Yeah, play the clip here.
	Do we have audio or no, Rux?
	I can't remember.
	Back up a little bit.
	That's a tough question.
	Who would take the last shot?
	Me.
	That's tough question.
	So if you want to pause it, and this is, I think it's the right moment while you guys are getting off the bus and saying, where's Scotty?
	We got to go play golf.
	Where's Scotty?
	I think he's having that conversation.
	Did you guys golf a lot together or no?
	Never.
	You guys never golf?
	No.
	So who was he talking about to go golf with him, Rob?
	Wow, you guys never golf together.
	No.
	So when you guys played together, how often was it for you guys to have dinner together?
	I mean, we may have like a pregame meal or something like that, but we would, it's always a big, big party of people.
	How many times did just you and Michael have dinner in Chicago?
	Chicago has a lot of great.
	Scotty, stop it.
	Scotty, stop it.
	Never.
	You and Michael never had dinner together one-on-one?
	No.
	Never.
	Michael's house just sold, the one in Chicago.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I think it sold for like $9.6 million or some number like that, if I'm not mistaken.
	We liked the house.
	We were interested, but possibly doing something with that because the history in it.
	How often did you guys hang out in that house, go shooting, basketball, talking, mentally getting ready for the playoffs?
	I never shot basketball there.
	I actually would go over in the morning when Grover was training.
	We would train together.
	Scotty, can you get the mic a little bit closer?
	I'm sorry.
	I was actually trained with Michael, I guess the last three championships that we won, we trained together at his house.
	But other than that, we didn't really put a lot of time in away from basketball.
	Most of our time was spent, you know, whether we were working out or on the practice floor.
	That's so wild to me because, you know, that feedback was given sometimes about Kobe.
	Kobe wasn't a guy that hung out with his teammates, first run that he had.
	And then Phil, you know, the story about Phil brings Michael in and says, hey, Michael, I want you to meet Kobe.
	And Kobe says, you know, I'd beat you one-on-one if we played one-on-one.
	You know, that exchange.
	And then Kobe eventually, you can tell him and Powell became best of buddies, brothers, family.
	You see Powell with Vanessa, with family.
	It's emotional, all of that stuff.
	That's hard to believe, Scotty.
	Would you?
	Would you?
	Would you say he was such a oh man, that's Because sometimes when a guy is such an alpha at the highest level, the idea sometimes to lead your guys is be close enough to influence, but far enough to not make them too comfortable with you.
	The Prince Machiavelli talks about that.
	A lot of leaders talk about that, and it doesn't make sense to the average.
	It's kind of like, what are you talking about?
	He's go build a relationship, go build a bond, et cetera, et cetera.
	Some guys go that route.
	I wonder how much that was more from his analysis of, listen, I'm above, I'm the leader, I'm the head guy here, and he didn't want to get too close to his guys, especially if you're saying you guys never had dinner together, Scotty?
	No.
	And you never golfed because you weren't a golfer?
	Are you a decent golfer?
	I'm thinking a little bit of both.
	I'm decent, but I didn't really care for the game much when I played.
	When season ended and it's offseason, how often did you guys hang out in offseason?
	Zero.
	Who was your guy?
	Was it more Horace?
	You and Horace?
	You and Dennis?
	You and BJ Armstrong was.
	Probably more Horace.
	Who was close to Michael on the team?
	Him and B.J. were close.
	I mean, when he came back to that one practice when BJ and him speaking and saying, hey, come and shoot a little bit.
	I don't know about that one, but if you say so.
	Well, no, listen, if I'm saying it, I'm just saying it because I saw it.
	I don't know if I have the credibility of having been there.
	I just read about it.
	Yeah.
	I mean, there were times when guys that were brought in that kind of bonded with Michael, Sam Vinson, Darryl Walker, but those were veteran players that had been around him probably previously, probably from college.
	But as far as players that he played with in the 90s, he didn't really bond with players on that team.
	But I thought he was good friends with Oakley.
	I thought him and Oakley were very Oakley wasn't on that team.
	No, no, not Oakley from the beginning era when he was coming up.
	Wasn't Oakley one of his teammates when they got rid of him?
	He was upset about it because he liked Oakley and they had a friendship together.
	Yeah, that's the story that was told, but I don't know where that relationship is today.
	Oh, okay.
	Well, I don't know what that relationship is today, but I don't know which story it was when one time you guys are playing the Knicks and he says, hey, Oak, let's go have dinner together.
	Oh, this was part of his Hall of Fame speech, if I'm not mistaken.
	When Pat Riley said, was it Pat Riley?
	Was it Pop Pat didn't want the Knicks players hanging out with us?
	Well, Pat ran it like a mob boss.
	Pat wasn't a regular, you know, he was a, and then Michael's like, what do you mean?
	You know, no, I can't because I'm with the Knicks.
	So Pat Eliofian, the greatest respect you can have for great players to show him none.
	During the 1993 Eastern Conference Finders between the Knicks and Jascot, Riley's comment was in response to Bulls' complaints about officiating.
	Go a little bit lower.
	Riley believed that players should be hardworking, disciplined.
	Riley Spruce worked the next with Mass 94 Final.
	Riley is considered one of the greatest NBA figures of all time.
	He won seven champions.
	Yeah, and he owns the patent on three-peat, if I'm not mistaken.
	yeah um who who rob can you who was michael's best friend in the nba uh I don't know.
	You got Charles Barkley.
	While they played.
	I don't know.
	By the way, so we can transition to the next story, but I'll tell you how I process this.
	And Scotty, whatever I say, please tear it apart.
	Don't just kind of let me get away with saying this here.
	I want you to tear it apart and say, you have no clue what you're talking about.
	So there's no way a guy does what Michael did, you know, the number of scoring titles, finals MVP.
	You know, one guy who was the MVP, finals MVP, you know, defensive player of the year, and he's only four people have ever done that.
	And he's the only guy that's done it four times.
	You know, the one that we all read about and we all see about.
	In a number of seasons, he played 82 games.
	And the phrase about the fact that I'm not going to miss a game because a father, maybe the only game he's bringing a son over to the game that I'm going to go out there and give my best because I owe it to that father that brought his kid.
	And being a guy that was a sportsman, the face, taking it to different eras.
	There's something that he said at the end of the last dance.
	And I'm curious to know how you process this because I don't know if anybody's asked you of this.
	Remember at the end when he gets emotional and he steps away and he says, look, if you can't understand me, that we did this and I wanted to win and I wanted to do this and da-da-da-da-da.
	And that was the only time that he got emotional and he got away.
	How did you process that?
	That moment when he's looking at that iPad and he's kind of giving a message and he needed a break.
	I didn't see it.
	You didn't watch the last dance?
	I didn't see that part of it.
	So you didn't watch all the 10 episodes?
	No.
	After what episode did you stop watching it?
	Probably, I don't know, probably six, seven.
	The Ku Coach episode.
	Yeah, something like that.
	You saw that episode.
	Was that the one where you're like, you know what?
	Screw this.
	I'm done.
	Yeah, I didn't want to see it.
	My kids got turned off on it, so it's kind of turnt me off.
	So I didn't have any interest to watch it anymore.
	Yeah.
	Well, very interesting.
	Very interesting.
	But to me, sometimes it's when a guy that comes in and is the lead dog and got a lot of the thorns that came his way, it's very hard to be a Michael.
	And I think it's also very hard for anybody to understand Michael, anybody to understand Michael.
	I think there's only a few guys that can probably expand on that to understand the level of, you know, craziness to compete and the drive.
	It's not a, I don't know how many people you can put in that to compare it to.
	Maybe a Brady and a couple other guys that, you know, that's so interesting.
	I just learned a lot, Scotty.
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, I will say he, Michael, he was built different.
	Competitive 24-7.
	Not too many people are built like that.
	I agree.
	Willing to compete at any level and at anything.
	So when you look at these players in today's era, being LeBron, there's really no comparison when you talk about the level of competitiveness.
	Michael bunched up all of his competitiveness and sort of exposed it out to the world.
	Within 12 to 14 years, we saw his whole resume, his competitiveness, his drive, his will to win, what he's want to do.
	When someone like LeBron has to spread that out for 20 plus years, it's not the same drive.
	It's not the same fight.
	It's not the same hunger.
	And so when people try to make those comparisons of those two players, it's like talking to someone in the front seat, in the back seat.
	They ain't even in the same lane.
	Did you see today?
	By the way, what a freaking point you just made.
	Condensing timeframes.
	You know, I don't know if you saw the stat today who posted it that said, yes, LeBron may have passed Michael in the most 30-point games.
	It'll take another 32 years to pass Michael in 40-point games, right?
	Yeah.
	It's like, it's not even worth talking about.
	The two of them.
	When you ask who's better, LeBron or Michael, you can't ask me who's the GOAT between LeBron and Michael.
	Neither one of them are GOATs.
	They both won differently.
	You can't put them at the top of the pinnacle.
	Magic Johnson, to me, is a bigger GOAT than anybody because of how he laid, how he brought a whole team.
	How when the greatest scorer in the game, Karing, was not there in him as a rookie steps in and plays a position that no one even knew he could play.
	That's transcending what you can do as a player.
	Yeah, that's why when you ask the question, how do you define it for GOAT?
	Your definition is very different.
	You know, to me, the definition of comparing a LeBron versus a Michael, you know, LeBron had a Wade.
	LeBron had a Bosch.
	LeBron had a Kyrie.
	LeBron had a Anthony Davis.
	And Michael had you.
	It's a different game, too.
	It's a different game, too.
	I think for me, when I played.
	LeBron got lanes every night.
	When we played, there were no lanes.
	It wasn't but hardwood floor.
	If you go to the basket, you're going to hit the wood.
	There's no comparison.
	There's the basketball in the late 80s into the early 90s, physical, hard nose, no layups.
	Earn it from the free throw line.
	Today's game, it's about three-point shooting.
	It's about driving it to the basket, finishing.
	Did you hear me say, earn it at the free throw line?
	That doesn't even exist in today's game.
	It's just about shooting the ball, shooting the ball.
	You said one time when you had a conversation with Michael about when he went to the Rockets and Barkley was a teammate, and he said something to you.
	He says, I probably should have listened to Michael a year ago when he said that Charles will never win a championship because he doesn't show any dedication.
	He's a very selfish guy.
	Then he said all this stuff to you, right?
	That's my reason for wanting to get away from playing with him because he just doesn't show the dedication.
	You know, those are tough words to be said from Michael to a friend, that is Charles.
	Looking back now and having the wisdom that you have today, you had a lot of, everybody wanted you.
	You could have gone anywhere.
	Anybody and everybody wanted you.
	What would have been a different situation?
	What do you look at where you said it's well?
	I'm going to be honest that my options weren't that great.
	Really?
	Because of the way that the CBA was set up.
	Got it.
	Who did you have as options?
	Well, I had Phoenix, but it was for less money.
	Got it.
	I think Philadelphia didn't want to go play in a cold climate.
	Who did Philly have at that time?
	Was it AI?
	Was it still AI?
	Was it?
	Yeah, it was AI.
	Yeah.
	Because it was tail end.
	So it would have been AI.
	Yeah.
	They had the Kimber Mutumbo, I think.
	I don't know if you had a leftover.
	I showed no interest.
	I definitely wanted to be in a warm climate.
	And I saw Houston as an opportunity for me really to play with two veteran guys and that we could, you know, make something happen real quick.
	And it was the lockout season, but it was definitely a short-lived.
	In fact, Charles started out working out with me and he was all dedicated and working out me and him with Grover.
	I took Grover down there and he lasted about a month.
	Was it because, what, it's just a little too much with Grover?
	No, it wasn't too much for Grover.
	It was too much for him.
	No, that's what I'm saying.
	To go with Grover.
	It's a little too much for Charles.
	Well, yeah, he wanted to enjoy his nightlife and our workouts were predicated on getting up in the morning and training before practice.
	Yeah, I mean, I can see that.
	And, you know, when the business pays you a lot of money and you have the ability to go party, sometimes it's hard to say, I want to get up and go get that ring.
	And, you know, for everybody, by the way, who's your favorite teammate you ever had?
	And who was your best teammate you ever had?
	Wow.
	Well, can I give them both to Michael?
	I mean, I can't knock him and say he was a bad teammate.
	I can't knock him and say he wasn't my favorite.
	I mean, we had a lot of success.
	So I would say he probably fit both of those categories.
	Scotty, you're interesting, buddy.
	I got to tell you, who's your second favorite?
	I mean, I love playing with Horace Grant.
	I love playing with Dennis.
	And I would probably say Horace was probably my favorite at first because we got drafted together.
	We went to the Bulls together.
	We won our first three championships together, but he ended up leaving.
	So the bond with Michael became better and just on the court, really.
	Not off the court.
	More dinners with Horace than Michael, that's for sure.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Is that cat story true, by the way?
	What's the cat story?
	I got to hear that.
	Whose cat got sick or someone's cat got to see?
	Oh, what is that?
	Tell me this.
	Scotty, be honest here, because this cat story.
	That was like a Horace Grant sort of I'm skipping practice kind of.
	By the way, there's probably only going to be three people listening to this story with the cat.
	But what's the cat story?
	Well, Horace Grant would always skip practice.
	Why would he skip practice?
	His cat got sick.
	It was a joke, though.
	Yeah.
	Did he actually have a cat?
	so who actually believed it was it was it like is he Is it a joke or was he seriously?
	But because, you know, NBA players, if you call in to say you're sick, the team can't do nothing but take your word, right?
	So Horse would always, not always, but he'll call in occasionally and say he was sick.
	And so we had this older coach, Coach Johnny Bach.
	He was our defensive coach.
	So he always would say, well, his cat got sick.
	Well.
	And it stuck.
	Yeah.
	But in reality, he never got sick to say because of his cat.
	No.
	It was a joke that the coach made.
	Well, listen.
	Exactly.
	That coach, that one little joke is still here.
	It's still here.
	30 years later, 40 years later.
	Got to give him credit.
	So final stuff before we wrap up here.
	In regards to Zion, okay, in regards to some of these guys that are coming and they're getting paid what they're getting paid, I remember Michael said something about like some of these guys are getting paid without having to earn it.
	I don't know when this was.
	He said, it could have been 20 years ago or 15 years ago.
	He said it a while back.
	When you look at a Zion, have you ever spoken to him one-on-one and trying to coach him and give him feedback or no?
	Have you guys?
	No.
	So, okay, so if Zion is listening, I mean, so many people give him feedback of what to do.
	This is a guy, if I'm not mistaken, he's got a 43-inch vertical leap.
	I don't know what the number is.
	Rob, can you pull up Zion's vertical leap?
	I've seen 41.
	I've seen 43.
	I've seen 46.
	Okay, so 46 and a half vertical leap.
	Okay, I don't know what the number is, but he's got a big vertical leap.
	The weight, the ripping the shoes in college when he's playing is like, you know, when Paul George jumping in and, you know, you remember this, this guy's the amount of power that he has.
	A guy like Zion Williamson, who's right now, I think, only 24 years old, do you foresee him changing and being able to have a long-standing career performing Hall of Fame type of guy, or you don't see that happening?
	No, I don't see it happening.
	I don't know how much longer he's going to be on the court.
	I mean, I think that the organization has been over backwards to maintain some professionalism to the fact that this kid is not even on the court.
	He's not even working to be a professional basketball player.
	It's almost like when you watch him, you're seeing a kid sitting on a college bench and still hasn't found what's going to be fruitful for him in life, whether it's his diet, putting the right people around you, getting yourself ready, staying healthy.
	I don't know what to say about his career thus far because all indication shows me that if there's a lockout, if there's any injuries major to him, it's going to take him out.
	If there's a lockout, it's going to take him out because what?
	Lack of discipline, eating, putting on weight, getting to 300 pounds.
	He hasn't shown that he's disciplined enough to take care of himself physically yet.
	Is he savable?
	Oh, he's definitely savable.
	There's a lot of GMs out there watching and hoping that New Orleans sort of dropped the ball.
	I mean, there's organizations out there would love to embrace this kid and really get him to where he can be a great NBA player because I think putting him in a position where he is sort of a veteran.
	I mean, I look where the kid that went to Duke is the oldest player on their team.
	Well, he's probably three or four years older than Zion.
	So veteran leadership around this kid may help him.
	And to help jumpstart his career in a sense that it's just as important for him off the court to work on himself as it is on the court.
	Who do you think would put him in his place where he would have a level of fear and respect for that person?
	Either going to make him or break him.
	Somebody like Pat.
	But I like Pat Riley in the Miami Heat organization.
	Well, you saw how much heat Pat got this week when Jimmy's saying he wants to leave and somebody came out.
	I don't know who came out and criticized Pat saying you're just too much.
	You're always pushing people out.
	Who said that about Pat?
	Somebody criticized him hardcore and he said, maybe you're right.
	Maybe it is time.
	Yeah.
	Who comes to the house?
	I don't know who said that about Pat, but I did see where he kind of took the blame and pointed it back at himself and said, maybe I am.
	Oh, Paul Pierce it was.
	I saw Paul Pierce saying, yeah, if you can pull it up, Rob.
	Paul Pierce slammed Riley for disrespecting Butler, the 6ML star.
	Once I get whatever I get out of you, you can get the F out of here, Pierce said.
	That's what Pat Riley's mentality is.
	Yeah.
	And Pat Riley said, maybe he's right, but I don't know if I agree with that.
	I don't know if I agree with that because I have a hard time with that mentality with Pierce saying something like that.
	Look, he can say whatever he wants.
	He scored 26,000 career points.
	He's a legend and a champion when they won.
	Well, I don't want to say it the way Paul Pierce said it, but it's been known for many years that the Miami Heat does exactly what Paul Pierce said.
	Let's say he does.
	Let's say he does.
	Okay.
	Who else can shape up to them?
	So why did LeBron, Dwayne, and Bosch go there?
	Why did so many people want?
	They left.
	No, I get that, but they want championships.
	Yeah.
	Well, when you're young, you can work for Pat Riley.
	But as you get older, like a Jimmy Butler, his system will break you down.
	I can see that.
	And by the way, you know what that could tell me as well?
	Look, Nick Sabin wasn't a good NFL coach, but he went and became the greatest college football coach of all time.
	Yeah, but I think you have to look at the game differently from a whole perspective.
	What do you mean by that?
	These players ain't about winning championships no more.
	They're about running the business.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So Jimmy Butler knows that his body is his business.
	And if you want to continue to use my service, then take care of my business.
	What a bad way of looking at it for the fan.
	What a bad way of looking at it for the fan.
	I hate to say that the fans have to see it that way.
	Yeah.
	But the players got to maximize what they can get in such a small window.
	So interesting you're saying that.
	I mean, I can bring up some stats.
	Maximize earnings.
	So, Scotty, when you played, the median NBA salary in 93-94 season was $1.3 million.
	Well, that was a median salary, $1.3 million, right?
	These guys, right now, it's $5.57 million.
	The average salary today in the NBA, at that time, the average salary was $1.75 million.
	The average salary today in the NBA is $11.124 million.
	That's almost 6X.
	That's not 7X.
	Well, I mean, in all fairness, I'm always being on the player's side.
	I understand that.
	You ought to be.
	I definitely think that, you know, from a player's standpoint, I've been in this situation.
	I've been in the game that you got to maximize your value.
	You're not going to stay that valuable forever.
	So, Jimmy Baller value is up right now.
	In two to three years or whatever, it may not be up.
	So, I respect him speaking.
	This is actually nothing to do for me with Jimmy.
	I'm actually, Jimmy, go do what Jimmy wants to do.
	I'm not, this is not a Jimmy conversation.
	To me, this is a Paul conversation because watch what you said when I asked you who do you think can shape up Zion?
	Yeah, I said Riley.
	I said Paul Riley's the way they do it.
	But I also say it young.
	He's going to make him or break him.
	Yeah.
	Well, listen, my opinion: you ain't going to find too many Rileys nowadays.
	You're just not.
	And so, no, but there's not going to be that type of management in the game much longer.
	Unfortunately.
	Because players are now have a lot more balance.
	They have a lot more rights in the game in terms of not playing with injuries, not playing back-to-backs.
	So to me, you know what that says?
	Try that mindset in the NFL.
	It won't work.
	Good luck with that mindset in the NFL.
	And in the NFL, these guys are, you know, you're talking about life-ending risk on the line the way you play.
	Neck, paralyze, all this other stuff.
	Okay.
	You know, you don't hear stuff like that.
	The worst thing I've seen in the NBA last 30 years was Paul George.
	Remember that hole when he came down on the leg and it broke?
	That was Olympics.
	That was the Olympics.
	No, he was with the Pacers when that happened.
	I don't think it was the Olympics.
	It was.
	Can you pull up when he did that?
	I thought he was, I don't know which one it is.
	It's right there.
	It's the third line, second picture.
	Third line, third, right there.
	That's him right there.
	Yeah, when he broke the leg, it literally split in half, right?
	I don't know.
	I think that's a part of why it's unattractive to watch this game.
	Don't get me wrong.
	A person's going to come up like George Krall.
	That was the Olympics, though.
	Was it the Olympic?
	Maybe you're right.
	Maybe it was the Olympics.
	Based on what you're saying.
	Yeah, it was the Olympics.
	You're right.
	It was the Olympics.
	No, no, you're right about this one.
	You were wrong about LeBron winning only two.
	He won four, but I'm not about this one.
	So to me, I think that's what's unattractive about the NBA.
	I think the players are so protected and, you know, it's like, oh, my God, don't offend the players.
	God bless you.
	Do you think that's what's hurt the game?
	No, because the priority is not fans first.
	You forget who, like, for example, anybody that becomes too wealthy in business, the moment I forget that we don't have this business with our guys that are working as hard as they're working or the viewers that are watching, and you start thinking you're pompous and everything's around you.
	What are you talking about?
	You have nothing without the fans.
	If you don't have the fans, who pays you?
	Fans, the guy that created the game and then fans showed up and the fans kept supporting, and that caused to get more eyeballs and sponsorship.
	And that was able to get guys from getting paid 80 grand a year, 20 grand a year, to making 80 grand, sometimes a minute, you play for some players, right?
	This game is a very, very different game today.
	And but what's this one, Rob?
	This is Colin Cowhert saying what?
	Kind of back to what you were talking about, being detached from the regular people, being detached from the fans and the effect it's had.
	What do you think about Colin, by the way?
	Oh, I fucking love him.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Play this clip rock.
	Goodell has navigated a multitude of cultural changes.
	That CTE issue.
	That was bad.
	And overlooked for a long time by a previous commissioner or two.
	And here he's made the PAT interesting.
	He tinkers.
	He evolves.
	And the NBA, meanwhile, ratings are down 48% in the last 12 years.
	And they have fallen off a cliff this year.
	And Adam Silver's solution is let's make the courts brighter.
	And I like the NBA, but the all-star game is now embarrassing.
	And I think load management is a shame on the league.
	It is a really bad look for a family of four to go to a game and Giannis doesn't play or MB doesn't play.
	I'm sorry.
	Go ask the Democrats.
	Be warned, once you detach from regular people in America, you will pay a price.
	What do you think about what I just said?
	That's true fact.
	I mean, fans are students of the game as well.
	They're not just fans, you know.
	They know the game.
	And so you seeing players over there that you worked hard all week to earn money and to bring your family out for a family evening.
	And now that guy sitting over there in sweats that's not even a team uniform.
	And it's like, really?
	Is this what I save my 800 bucks for?
	To come see this guy stand on the sideline?
	Yeah.
	So, yeah, he's truly right.
	I mean, but that's the direction of where the game is.
	You cannot make players play.
	And to be honest, this will continue to go on.
	Oh, I agree.
	No, I have to not gonna stop.
	I agree with you.
	Players are now at the point where they are saying, I'm gonna play 50 games.
	Wow.
	And owners can't say shit.
	And you're gonna pay me for 82.
	That is unfreaking believable, Scotty.
	That's why I would never own an NBA team.
	I got a call on the opportunity to be a minority owner of two NBA teams.
	And a guy called me for MLB and a guy called me for the Raiders.
	When this guy called me, he's a well-known guy that sells teams.
	And I was interested in the Raiders.
	But to me, it's between that or the Yankees.
	I'm going to go Yankees.
	So I won Yankees.
	I bought two rounds of ownership.
	Anybody that sells, I was interested.
	And when the NBA came about, I had zero interest because I don't believe in the product.
	I think they've destroyed the product where who would want, like even a Mark Cuban is a business, astute businessman.
	So by the way, don't get me wrong.
	The NBA is going to keep getting paid.
	Why?
	Because they're winning internationally.
	The eyeballs are increasing.
	They're going to keep making money.
	The product is not going away.
	Guys are going to start making $80, $100 million here the next five to 10 years.
	They're going to get paid.
	So is that 48% viewership being down, not hurting them?
	Here.
	That's here.
	Because they can go internationally and still be able to sell marketers and say, hey, look how many eyeballs we're getting here.
	But to me, yeah, I have a hard time with that.
	I have a hard time when you forget fans, customers, fans, customers.
	We go to dinner and we go to restaurants.
	If my kids don't say thank you, please, what makes you think because we have an okay lifestyle that we get to think, no, no, that person's serving us.
	We have to be respectful to this person.
	We have to tip them properly.
	We have to take care of these folks.
	It gives me the MBA of thinking you're above the fans.
	It's unattractive.
	And by the way, that's me.
	It's coming from a place of ask me stuff on stats from 1990 to 2010, 2015.
	I'm going to be able to get you some stats and numbers because I follow this game so closely.
	But.
	Yeah, well, it's truly a different game.
	The players are a lot more sensitive in a sense that they don't want any reaction with the fans.
	They don't want the fans having any type of camaraderie with them at all.
	They always feel that fans are a threat and they have sort of, to me, they have separated themselves.
	It's the players and it's the fans.
	And if you say something to me, it better be fucking nice or I'm going to have you removed from the arena.
	How do you feel about that?
	I think it's bad.
	I think it's bad that players cannot take criticism.
	I think it's, I used to love going into stands and having people call me out of my name.
	Yeah, didn't you call out Witzes and when you dunked on Ewink and you shoved him?
	And who was on the sideline?
	Spike.
	Spike, yeah.
	Yeah, so I embrace the fans being a part of, you know, getting at me, you know, trying to aggravate me.
	Now, I don't see that.
	You know, I don't see how you.
	Whose fault is that?
	Is that Adam Silver that accepts it?
	Because that comes from the top.
	Like, kids can cry and say anything, but father and mother can say, no, toughen up.
	I can't say words, where that comes from, but I can say that the game misses that.
	They miss that irritating fan.
	They missed that heckler that was irritating you and caused you to miss your free throws.
	Those are things that, you know, were a part of a game when I played.
	By the way, just out of curiosity, who were some of the toughest guys?
	Like, remember that one time Vernon Maxwell and Ori Vernon ran up to like the 16th row of that one game?
	I don't know if you remember that or not.
	Do you remember that?
	I don't remember Vernon, but Vernon was one of the toughest guys.
	He's a very close friend of mine.
	And yeah, he was a tough guy.
	But I mean, there was a lot of guys played in the league.
	And that, you know.
	I'm talking like street tough, like tough, tough.
	Yeah, I mean, but street tough can't go up in the stands.
	You know what I'm saying?
	We still have to be professional.
	I fully agree.
	You know, but there are guys who've gotten out of order and out of hand.
	But, you know, the commissioner has always been able to take care of that and keep things in order.
	But I think now the fans are so afraid that they can't even call a player out in any bad way that it's looked at as a threat.
	I say it comes from LeBron down to the league.
	I know you can't say that.
	You know, it's not something that, you know, you're going to be seen as an analyst.
	And some of the Barkley will say it.
	Some of these guys will say it.
	But I think it comes from the top down.
	And I don't think it's an exciting thing.
	By the way, I saw Vernon Maxwell the other day called out a former player, Vincent Askew.
	I haven't heard that name in a long time.
	I saw that.
	He said he called me for $10,000.
	Don't give him the money.
	He never pays back or whatever.
	Who were some of the tough guys that the players knew they're tough, but nobody talked about it that you played against?
	Oakley, was he one of them?
	Yeah, I guess Oaka said he's one of the tough guys.
	But you know what?
	That era guys kind of faded in the 90s.
	The Oakleys, the Buck William, Buddha, James Elward, who I played with.
	James Elk.
	You know, guys that would just give hard files.
	Those were guys that were considered tough guys.
	Guys that when you came in the lane, you're going to have to earn it.
	Who did we think was tough, but wasn't tough?
	Like as a fan, we're like, you guys thought he was tough.
	He wasn't tough.
	Are you a New York Knicks fan?
	No, I'm just kidding.
	Who were you going to say?
	No, I'm just kidding.
	No, I. Listen, if you said Knicks, there's three names I think about.
	So were you calling someone out with the Knicks?
	Were you calling Mason?
	Were you calling Xavier?
	They were all tough.
	Okay.
	They were all tough guys.
	But New York thought that they were the toughest team on the block back in the 90s, plus in the early 90s.
	We had some great battles with the story you hear about Michael Punch and Steve Kerr.
	Did you see Michael fighting a lot of people?
	Was that the only instance?
	I didn't see him fight anyone.
	Okay.
	but the steve kerr you're so funny is that like the i i didn't see it Oh, you didn't see the one with Steve?
	I must have mispracticed that day.
	You're joking right now, right?
	Is that what you're like?
	The code of keeping.
	Oh, my cat was sick.
	Oh, man. I think...
	I think I get it.
	No, but that's cool.
	And by the way, last one with Wimby.
	You think Wimby's going to go down as a is he going to end up being like, okay, he seems scary.
	Yeah, I do think he's going to go down as one of the great ones.
	I mean, from a statistical standpoint, it's just like I said when I saw LeBron Braun come in the game, these guys are going to dominate the game statistically because of how the rules have been and changed.
	Like, I mean, this guy can shoot a three-pointer whenever he gets ready.
	It's ridiculous from Michael.
	That's the crazy part about it.
	It's like you can't even contest his shot.
	You know, we think that Steph Curry got the freedom to dribble and shoot the ball, but now you're talking about a guy that's seven foot six and, you know, with unbelievable range.
	You know, just watching him all the night step across half court, pull up a three.
	What was that all about?
	You know, that's what we're going to be seeing in the next 10 years of the game is a lot more shooting from a lot bigger guys.
	Which of these records are most likely to be broken?
	Quadruple double, right?
	I think Hakeem, David, I think Alvin Robertson was the weird guy on the list that I wouldn't have expected him to be on the list.
	Alvin's the one that got into a first fight with Shaq, I believe.
	I don't expect that record to be broken.
	No one's going to do a quadruple double?
	Nah.
	So for sure, you don't think anyone does it?
	Because I think Hakeem may have got it because of Steals and blocks.
	Okay, yeah.
	I don't see Wimby getting the Steals.
	Okay, got it.
	So you're.
	Okay, so that's fully out.
	So you don't think Wimby winning.
	Like Hakeem, if you look at the stats, he's probably the top 10 in Steals throughout the league.
	So it wasn't an accident that he got a quadruple double.
	By the way, was he feared?
	Was he as tough as I read about?
	Yeah, he was tough.
	Would he say stuff to you?
	Like, hey, I'm going to kill you, or was he that kind of a guy?
	He was this tough physical guy, had great hands.
	You know, he's like, you couldn't put the ball around him.
	You know, he was so good with his feet, his hands.
	So having those soccer skills, he always was the ball and had great hands in terms of how to knock it away.
	Got it.
	I saw a clip the other day with David Robinson.
	I wonder how tough he was because I remember when one time into the season, him and Shaq are going for the scoring title.
	I think he scored 72 points against the Clip or some number like that.
	Shaq had 58 the last game of the season.
	He had 72.
	And I don't know who ended up winning the scoring title.
	I think it could have been him that won it.
	100-point game.
	Will anybody break that?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	What kind of a player will break it?
	More like a Steph Curry or more like a Shaq?
	more like oh more like really do you collect Do you collect cards?
	No, I don't collect cards, but I think for that to happen today, because I think, isn't the court bigger than what it was when Wilt scored 100?
	Oh, I wouldn't know.
	Because I don't think it was a three-point shot for it back.
	No, for sure.
	They didn't have three-point shots.
	That I know.
	But I think that Wimby would be the guy if it could happen because of his size.
	He can shorten up the court.
	His size, his range.
	He's the guy.
	Well, anybody beating the six championships undefeated 6-0?
	I don't think so.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Well, Scotty, I've really enjoyed this conversation with you.
	I've had a great time here.
	It's been an awesome time.
	Yeah.
	And some of your answers, I have to tell you, I was not expecting some of those answers.
	But it was from a fan standpoint.
	I want to fall in love with the game again.
	But I fell in love with the game of when you played.
	That's the game.
	When I came here November 28, 1990, the reason why my team became the Lakers is because you guys beat him that year, 1999 season.
	That was the year where that famous picture of magic and, you know, Michael, he's defending him.
	That one picture of the Sam Perkins, that whole era.
	It was all of the magic and Michael.
	Yeah, that's not the picture.
	There's a famous picture of them two guarding each other.
	That's it there.
	That's the one.
	You got it.
	That's the one.
	It was just the era.
	And you guys broke my heart because I was in L.A.
	I said, I'm going to be a Laker for life.
	And I rooted for the Lakers up until LeBron came to the Lakers.
	That's me.
	Because to me.
	It's kind of funny you say that.
	Tell me why.
	I would think that would make you more of a Laker fan, but you're not a guy that is sort of jumping on the bandwagon championship.
	You believe in the journey.
	And I love a real Laker.
	I was a Steinburner guy, and not Steinburner, a Jerry Buss guy, and a Steinburner.
	I love owners that want to win so bad that they're willing to do anything.
	And Jerry Buss won 10 in 33 years.
	Maybe the greatest owner of all time, by the way, Jerry Buss.
	And the relationship he had with the players and what he did.
	But yeah.
	But, you know, as a fan, you know, watching you over the years and now having a conversation, this was a treat.
	I appreciate you for coming out.
	Rob, gang, if you enjoyed it, I want you to do me a favor and support Scotty by going and buying his book and reading the story from him.
	Rob, put the link below for Scotty.
	And then if anything Scotty said, you were kind of like, what's going on here?
	By the way, you know, one thing we haven't even asked that some of you guys probably wondering is, you said you made Satoshi and you're not supposed to talk about it on Twitter and Bitcoin and all this stuff.
	What is that all about?
	Like this.
	Well, I said I had a dream, but, you know, after speaking to my good friend Michael Saylor, he said we don't talk about Satoshi.
	We don't talk about Satoshi.
	So learning from my mentor, I'm going to take what he said as some good advice.
	And your mentor's worth around $10 billion today.
	Yes.
	He's doing okay for himself.
	He's doing great.
	Were you with him New Year's Eve?
	No, I didn't make it down for New Year's Eve, but I was planning to come down for the whole party, but it kept getting postponed.
	Wow.
	My man, Scotty, appreciate you for coming out.
	This is fantastic.
	Thank you for having me.
	Pleasure having me.
	Likewise.
	Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represents who you are.
	So for us, if you wear a future looks bright hat or a value tame gear, you're telling the world, I'm optimistic.
	I'm excited about what's going to be happening, but you're a free thinker.
	You question things.
	You like debate.
	And by the way, last year, 120,000 people got a piece of future looks bright gear with value tamement.
	We have so many new things.
	The cufflinks are here.
	New future looks bright.
	This is my favorite, the green one.
	Just yesterday, somebody placed an order for 100 of these.
	If you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from.
	White ones, black ones.
	If you smoke cigars and you come to our cigar lounge, we have this high-quality lighter cutter and a holder for the cigars.
	We got sweaters with the value tame logo on it.
	We got mugs.
	We got a bunch of different things.
	But if you believe the future looks bright, if you follow our content and what we represent with value tainment, with PBD podcasts, go to vtmerch.com.
	And by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift insight just for you.

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