PBD - Patrick Bet-David - Jeffrey Epstein’s Brother TELLS ALL - His Mentor, Mossad Ties & a Strange Phone Call

July 8, 2024 - PBD - Patrick Bet-David

01:38:28

Jeffrey Epstein’s Brother TELLS ALL - His Mentor, Mossad Ties & a Strange Phone Call | PBD Podcast

Patrick Bet-David sits down with Mark Epstein for a thrilling in-person interview. Patrick uncovers never heard before facts about the mysterious death of Jeffrey Epstein. Join Patrick as he delves into Mark's insights about his brother's death, relationships, and life. ---- 00:00 - Podcast intro 04:04 - Patrick welcomes Jeffrey Epstein's only living relative, Mark Epstein. 04:21 - How Mark found out about Jeffrey's suicide and why he thinks his brother was murdered. 08:20 - Why Mark believes Bill Barr helped cover up the murder of Jeffrey Epstein. 13:21 - The evidence that leads Mark to believe Jeffrey was murdered. 20:09 - What's more important to solve - who killed Jeffrey or why? 27:24 - Mark discusses his and Jeffrey's relationship & Epstein's 2006 Arrest 41:00 - Mark discusses Little Saint James Island & Epstein's $158M payday from Leon Black. 58:00 - Mark responds to reports Jeffrey has videos of powerful people in compromising positions. 1:08:40 - Mark discusses meeting Ghislane Maxwell and Jeffrey's mentor, Steven Hoffenberg 1:18:38 - Jeffrey's relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell and his ties to the Israeli Mossad. 1:29:23 - Mark explains what Megyn Kelley meant when she said Americans would hear from Jeffrey this year. 1:33:34 - Mark Epstein gives the final thoughts on Jeffrey's suicide. 1:38:10 - Purchase the "Allegedly" t-shirt for $29.95 at VTMerch.com: https://bit.ly/3US6cgp Purchase the "Allegedly" t-shirt for $29.95 at VTMerch.com: https://bit.ly/3US6cgp Purchase tickets to The Vault Conference 2024 featuring Patrick Bet-David & Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson: https://bit.ly/VAULT2024 Connect one-on-one with the right expert for you on Minnect: https://bit.ly/3MC9IXE Connect with Patrick Bet-David on Minnect: https://bit.ly/3OoiGIC Connect with Rob Garguilo on Minnect: https://bit.ly/426IG0R Purchase Patrick's new book "Choose Your Enemies Wisely": https://bit.ly/41bTtGD Register to win a Valuetainment Boss Set (valued at over $350): https://bit.ly/41PrSLW Get best-in-class business advice with Bet-David Consulting: https://bit.ly/40oUafz Visit VT.com for the latest news and insights from the world of politics, business and entertainment: https://bit.ly/472R3Mz Visit Valuetainment University for the best courses online for entrepreneurs: https://bit.ly/47gKVA0 Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! Get PBD's Intro Song "Sweet Victory" by R-Mean: https://bit.ly/3T6HPdY SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @vtsoscast @ValuetainmentComedy @bizdocpodcast @theunusualsuspectspodcast Want to be clear on your next 5 business moves? https://bit.ly/3Qzrj3m Join the channel to get exclusive access to perks: https://bit.ly/3Q9rSQL Download the podcasts on all your favorite platforms https://bit.ly/3sFAW4N Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

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	You know, but to be killed in a federal prison, maximum security, federal prison, not any Joe on the street could pull something like that off.
	Who would have the ability to put that together?
	Oh, you're kidding me.
	Come on, man.
	It gives me the impression that you're trying to say he's covering up for Trump, is what you're saying.
	Well, a lot of people have suggested that that's who ordered the hits.
	He said that if he said what he knew about both candidates, they'd have to cancel the election.
	There'd be a revolution in this country.
	Did you ever go to the island with him?
	Did he ever take you to the island with him?
	No, I was on that island once.
	It would have been the highest bail ever in the United States.
	What was the number?
	Well, the highest bail at that point in time was $100 million.
	So you guys were willing to put on more than $100 million bail?
	Yeah.
	It's hard to make six figures.
	It's harder to make a million.
	Six, $700 million?
	How do you make that kind of money?
	You make good investments.
	Come on, Mark.
	You don't give me naive vibes at all.
	If Israel had access to that information, how much influence would they have to be able to get U.S. politicians to do for Israel what Israel wants to be done for them?
	And if they had it, they would have influence.
	I just want to find out who had my brother killed.
	And I want to find out why.
	Okay.
	We can work together.
	So this is the first time I've ever done an interview where Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, after the interview is done, which is an hour and 40, hour and 45 minutes at the time, I think most of the interviews he's been doing has been 25 to 30 minutes.
	He leaves.
	We have a conversation.
	He comes back to make sure I knew the definition of sex trafficking.
	I don't know why.
	And we defined it on what sex trafficking is.
	That was interesting.
	He was comfortable with that being in the discussion.
	We talked about so many different things.
	We talked about a weird phone call he had with Jeffrey in 06 when he was being accused of having sex with underage girls, where he made a phone call to Mark first's brother.
	It's very revealing what he says.
	We talked about Masada agent.
	Is he a Masada agent?
	What's his link to it?
	You know, his impression of the many, many times he hung out with Jelaine Maxwell.
	What was that like?
	One time he visited the island, his brother.
	And then, you know, many different names.
	One name came up when I asked the question.
	I said, so, you know, if you're telling me family life was good, very nice, charming, charismatic, mom and dad, good family.
	They raised good kids.
	You don't one day learn the business model that your brother is being accused of of holding people hostage with the information that he has and possibly tapes and trafficking and all this other stuff.
	Who taught him?
	And a name came up of a mentor.
	And we looked up the mentor.
	And we'll go through the process as well together when you watch this entire podcast.
	Here's all I'll tell you.
	Some of the information you're going to get with the news.
	Well, you know, this is the noose and we have to cut it.
	And then we show the picture.
	There is no cut of a noose of what it looked like.
	If you're fascinated and interested in this topic of not only it not being a suicide or being a suicide, of what was his power?
	Why was he feared?
	Why did Leon Black pay him $153 million for estate planning fee, consulting services, tax and estate planning?
	I don't know who's ever gotten $153 million.
	We asked them, you're going to enjoy this podcast.
	With that being said, here's Mark Epstein, the only surviving relative of Jeffrey Epstein, his younger brother by 18 months.
	Did you ever think you would make it?
	I know this life meant for me.
	Why would you bet on Goliath when we got bet David?
	Value payment, giving values contagious.
	This world of entrepreneurs, we get no value to hate it.
	Run, homie, look what I become.
	I'm the one.
	So today we're sitting with the only surviving family member of Jeffrey Epstein, Mark Epstein, the younger brother of 18 months.
	Mark, it's great to have you on the podcast.
	Thank you.
	He's asked to not be on camera, so you will not see his face.
	I'll be speaking to me sitting right here in front of me.
	Mark, there's a lot of things that we've all followed.
	We all remember the news that came out, you know, a month after your brother went to jail in July of 2019, August 10th of 2019.
	Boom, Jeffrey Epstein is dead.
	And then stories started circulating.
	But nobody would be more curious about what happened then than probably you as his only brother, surviving relative.
	What question was more important to you to get answered, the how or the why?
	Well, first let me make it clear that when I heard that he was dead the morning of the 10th, I heard it on CNN.
	I was having breakfast and the television was on.
	So the Justice Department didn't notify me, as they claim.
	Okay, I heard it on CNN just like you did.
	And at first I thought, well, I had no reason to doubt that he died by suicide.
	He was in jail, potentially facing a long-term imprisonment.
	And I know he probably wouldn't want to do that.
	So I accepted the fact that he committed suicide.
	I had no reason to doubt it.
	And I just figured that was his will.
	So I don't want anyone to think that I'm a brother that doesn't want to believe that he killed himself because I fully believed it at first.
	And then the next day, they did the autopsy.
	And the autopsy was performed by the city pathologist.
	I had the right to have my own pathologist there.
	So we hired Dr. Michael Bodden, who's very well known.
	Same fellow that was on 60 Minutes.
	Oh, yeah.
	He's been around for, he was part of the team that did the autopsy on JFK.
	He's in his 90s.
	He's been very active all the time.
	So I hired him.
	I see you have a picture of him.
	And he was there to witness the autopsy on my behalf.
	And they came out of the autopsy room.
	I was there at the medical examiner's office.
	And the doctor, Dr. Roman and Dr. Boden said they couldn't call it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide.
	So that started raising questions because if it was a suicide, it's usually pretty clear.
	And then on the initial death certificate, which we had to get in order to claim the body, it said cause of death said pending further investigation.
	Now, in speaking with many pathologists or a few pathologists since, usually when it says pending further investigation, you don't get an answer for many weeks.
	You have to get an initial death certificate to get the body.
	So they put pending further investigation.
	You know, if it was clearly a suicide, it was a suicide.
	So then a few days later, the chief medical examiner, Barbara Sampson, who did not see the body, she claims it was a suicide.
	Based on what?
	What investigating was done in those few short days?
	No one's been able to come up with an answer.
	When I met with the Justice Department people months later, and every question I asked them, all they said was, after a thorough investigation, we determined it was a suicide.
	You know, I said, but what about this?
	After a thorough investigation, we determined it was a suicide.
	It was like when somebody pleads the fifth, you know, you have to question after question.
	That's what I was getting.
	And Barbara Sampson has not given anybody an answer of how she made that determination.
	Someone said she was basing it on the fact that she thought that there was a prior suicide attempt, but that's been debunked.
	We know that Jeffrey's cellmate at the time attacked him.
	The cop that was facing four murders or whatever he had going on.
	And he's just been convicted more recently of the four murders he was charged with.
	Right, so he didn't try to commit suicide.
	Also, like the day later, you know, he was put on suicide watch and pretty quickly taken off a suicide watch because they realized it wasn't a suicide attempt.
	So, what was the determination by Barbara Sampson that it was a suicide?
	What was that based on?
	And then Bill Barr, the Attorney General, came out publicly.
	I saw it on television, saying that he personally saw the videotape that showed the door to the tier where Jeff Sell was, because the camera in that tier was not working for some reason.
	He saw the videotape and he said nobody went in or out of the tier, and that convinced him it was a suicide.
	And I heard that, and red flags went up.
	Number one, I thought, this is the Attorney General of the United States.
	He's probably a pretty busy guy.
	Why is he personally watching his videotape?
	Couldn't he have a couple of people in his office watch the videotape and say nobody went in or out?
	Wouldn't that suffice?
	So the fact that he said he personally watched it, I thought that was bullshit.
	And then he said nobody went in or out, and that convinced him it was a suicide.
	Well, here's the chief law enforcement officer in the United States who should have some criminal investigative experience.
	And any third-rate investigator you talk to will tell you that if nobody went in or out, all that means is that if Jeff was killed, the killer was already on the tier.
	There were 11 or 12 other prisoners on the tier that night who could have technically, theoretically killed him.
	They wouldn't have to come in and route.
	And to think that somebody could get to that door, go into the tier, kill somebody, and leave completely undetected is asinine.
	When I heard him say that, the thought that came in my mind was that he's the dumbest fuck on the planet.
	Bill.
	Bill.
	Yeah, Bill Barr.
	Because how could you say something like that?
	Because to get to that door, you have to go through six levels of security.
	Yeah, but it's either he's the dumbest person on the planet, which we know he's not, or he thinks the people are the dumbest people on the planet who will fall for it.
	Right.
	So I'm thinking he's covering this up.
	It's obviously a cover-up.
	So then the question becomes: who is he covering up for?
	Right.
	Okay.
	And you say, you know, what was his job?
	Who did he work for?
	Who's he covering up for?
	And he can't be reached.
	He won't respond to anything.
	And who do you think it is?
	I've heard you say this.
	And the way you do it, it gives me the impression that you're trying to say he's covering up for Trump, is what you're saying.
	Well, a lot of people have suggested that that's who ordered the hit.
	But they're not on good terms.
	They don't even like each other.
	Well, but if Trump did this, there would be, and if that was the case, this was protected under all kinds of national security laws, and Bill Barr would be restricted from speaking about it.
	Oh, if Bill Barr, from especially what happened two nights ago on the debate, I'm sure you watched a debate.
	Anybody who has any intel, bad intel on Trump, would be a hero today.
	Anybody.
	They would make him the man of the year.
	They would make him the person of the year, to be correct, you know, because I know Time Magazine wouldn't like that.
	We don't want him to be upset about Hussein man of the year.
	But there's no way in the world, the price of getting any dirt on Trump today has got to be the highest price that people are willing to pay today.
	So for me, when I think about is Bill hiding that from him, I don't know.
	By the way, let's continue.
	A few other things you said.
	If I could just address that, please go for it.
	If this is the case, that would be classified information.
	Okay, so Bill Barr would then be guilty of divulging classified information.
	So maybe he wouldn't want to take that risk.
	And I don't think he's looking for a financial payout.
	I don't think he's got financial payout.
	I think it's jobs.
	I think it's at that point, you know, to you and I, we're businessmen and businessmen, we broker deals.
	We go in on this property, we buy it for $100 million, we go 20% to this business, we put $50 million, 25 you, 25 me.
	Let's ask for the money back in three years.
	No, they want it back in seven years.
	Let's negotiate four years.
	Great.
	We can push them to get the money back.
	Let's put certain controls.
	What's the rate of return?
	We like to make four times on our money in like three to five years.
	Okay, it's very transactional and easy, right?
	And the political side, it's jobs, it's favors, it's control, it's fame, it's communities to be a part of, titles, Wikipedia, resume, legacy, what I'm going to be called, who I'm sitting with, who I'm shaking hands with.
	It's a very different game on how they negotiate.
	I'm not in it.
	You're not in it.
	But both of us could speculate that that could possibly happen.
	Well, another part of that is on that list of things is fear.
	Government employees, employees have fear of losing their position, of being threatened.
	You and I, if we're businessmen, we don't have that fear.
	Right.
	Because our fate is more in our own hands.
	But other people are not as fortunate.
	So that one right there to me, that goes out the window when I think about Bill Barr, because he would have a very, very promising career if he could destroy Trump's career.
	So that I set aside.
	However, let's go back to this because I've heard you go through this many times.
	I've watched a lot of your interviews, and I think you do a very good job going through it.
	And I applaud you for being curious to want to find out what the hell happened to your brother.
	So a few things, okay, to just kind of go through.
	One, the night of the suicide, the two security, they fell asleep, the guards, they fell asleep.
	And then there was, oh, we were asleep.
	We were in there.
	Somehow, someway, the doors left open.
	And then they falsified some of the information when they were putting the records there.
	They get indicted.
	The charges are dropped because they decided to cooperate.
	And all of a sudden, nothing happens to them.
	And then we find this noose that, yeah, you know, they had to cut the noose.
	And Rob, if you can pull up this picture, you've seen this before for, and even 60 Minutes says nothing looks like it's been cut.
	Yeah, if you look at the long, if you can zoom in on the long end of that noose, that's a so hemmed edge.
	That's right.
	Nothing's been cut.
	So what are they doing?
	And even on that edge, it doesn't, if it was tied to something with the guy's weight hanging on, it would be creased.
	It'd be signs that it has been tied to something.
	That's just not the case here.
	And even Michael Biden, when he talked to 60 Minutes, when they said the typical consequences of you commit suicide and you're hanging yourself, what breaks versus the three cartilages that broke, that is not a sign of somebody that committed suicide.
	No, it's interesting because Biden said he's never seen three breaks like this.
	Another pathologist I've been talking to recently sent me a report, a study that was done on those kind of breaks in suicidal hangings.
	First of all, it's called an incomplete hanging because part of your body is still on the ground.
	Jeff's feet were on the ground.
	Complete hanging is when you're just dangling from the neck.
	So a study was done on these kind of breaks.
	And the study was done in the Philippines.
	And they found that in 25% of the suicidal deaths like that, about one or two bones get broken in about 25% of the cases.
	There was no mention of three breaks in a study that was done about the broken bones and suicidal hangings.
	So this stands out as an outlaw.
	Anomaly for something like this to happen.
	Now, that kind of a wound on the neck is more, from what I'm also finding out from military people, is more consistent with a karate chop to the neck.
	And that seems to be the way they quickly and quietly kill people.
	They karate chop in the neck and then usually spin the head to break the neck.
	Like you see in the movies, why it wait to assassinate somebody, but they couldn't break his neck because that would be obvious.
	So in this case, it looks like he might have got the karate chop because that discombobulates you and incapacitates you, and so you can't really fight back very well.
	And then it looks like he was strangled.
	And if you look at the other photos that I sent, there's a groove in his neck that stayed in his neck, which they were able to determine that he was dead for at least two hours before he was found.
	If you can see that picture.
	He was dead for at least two hours before he was found.
	Definitely at least two hours.
	We could put that in post-production.
	If you have that, Rob, to show it, I'd love to see it.
	I mean, I could send it to you, you know, if you don't have that.
	Because if you strangle somebody and you let them lie there, the skin will flatten out because you have internal cell pressure, the tissues are still supple.
	So you may get some abrasion on the skin from whatever was used.
	But the groove, in order for the groove to stay in your neck, it takes at least two hours.
	This way, the skin dries out.
	It will hold that form.
	So he was dead for at least two hours.
	Now, in more recent studying the photograph, Jeffrey is relatively clean shaven, which nobody noticed before.
	And in prison, they shower and shave Monday, Wednesday, and Friday afternoons.
	So assuming, so he was found at six something in the morning.
	So if he was dead for just two hours, that means he died at 4.30, roughly.
	So if he shaved in the afternoon, you know, he'd have a 10, 12 hour stubble on his face because your beard stops growing when you die.
	He doesn't.
	It looks like he died much earlier in the night because he doesn't have a very heavy stubble on his face.
	Now, you mentioned the two guards.
	Another important thing is that Michael Thomas, one of the guards, he came on shift at midnight.
	The tear was locked up at 10 o'clock.
	So he wasn't there when the tear was locked.
	And there's never, ever just one guard there.
	The other guard, Tova Noel, she was on shift.
	And there's mention in some reports of an unnamed guard, number one, and an unnamed guard, number two, who was there when they locked up the tear.
	Who are those guards?
	Why are they unnamed?
	Can't find out.
	So that's why I asked this.
	At this point, who is convinced this is suicide?
	I don't know many people that have convinced this is suicide.
	Nobody I've spoken to.
	Nobody who's looked at all the facts.
	Who in the media is saying this was suicide?
	Even at the media side, because even 60 Minutes where, you know, put them wherever you want politically, left, right, and center.
	By the time I was done watching it, 60 Minutes wouldn't necessarily be a center or right thing.
	I would say they're more left organization.
	They've always leaned more towards the left.
	Even they left it open.
	And why would they leave it open?
	Why would you create those types of level of speculation for the audience?
	I don't think the government or the people of power or say the establishment would be happy with that kind of a position for 60 minutes to take.
	So who right now says this was suicide?
	Well, nobody really.
	Just as we speak, recently a new panel was put together of forensic pathologists, all well-respected people, and they're reviewing or going to be reviewing the autopsy reports and the photographs and all the facts that we have.
	Five years later.
	Five years later.
	That was done by a jury.
	I've been talking to a number of journalists, and there's a few journalists who were pretty convinced also that it wasn't a suicide.
	But I've been also sticking to facts.
	I don't like to speculate.
	That's why you've been mentioning the thing with Trump is speculation.
	And that's why I've been reluctant to bring that up.
	You brought it up, so I addressed it.
	But facts.
	I didn't bring it up.
	You brought it up, and you said, Bill Barks, I had heard you say it before multiple times, and you said, I don't know who he's protecting.
	And I said, I've heard you say that before.
	Are you speculating that it could be he's protecting the Trump because they're not on good terms?
	Because the audience could kind of go to a place and assume that's what you're saying.
	That's what I meant by that.
	Yeah, well, for you, since you mentioned the name I addressed, in the interviews, I'm not the one to put up his name because that's speculation.
	And I don't want to speculate.
	I want to stick with facts.
	But so, so what's more important to you, Mark?
	Is it more the how or the why?
	The who because it wasn't a suicide.
	Nobody thinks it was a suicide.
	So, so who had him killed?
	The why is someone got in and strangled him.
	So that's the how.
	There's no mystery there.
	Okay, so the how check we know it's not suicide.
	Let's set that aside.
	Let's go to the go to the why is your other question.
	The why would obviously be to shut him up.
	He had a lot of information.
	He had a lot of information on people.
	Yeah.
	Okay, such as.
	Well, I don't know.
	Jeff and I were not that close.
	You know, he didn't tell me, he would tell me funny stories, things that we did, and I would keep him abreasted with family news.
	I hadn't seen him for a number of years before he died, but we were always in touch via email or phone calls.
	So he would tell me funny stories.
	But I said publicly before in 2016, we were talking about the election.
	Just, you know, I asked him what he thought was going to take place between, you know, Hillary and Trump.
	And he didn't tell me what he knew, but he said that if he said what he knew about both candidates, they'd have to cancel the election.
	That was a quote.
	I don't know what he knew.
	And he wouldn't just say that to me to impress me in any way, shape, or form.
	You know, obviously he knew something and he made that comment.
	So you said you guys, I think the number you said is we didn't see each other for the last seven years of his life or something like that.
	Right.
	Is that correct?
	So how far did you guys live from each other?
	Was it well?
	We both have different homes in different cities.
	Okay.
	And so we were not necessarily in the same city very often.
	And New York City, I live downtown.
	He lives uptown.
	And in New York City, that's like two different worlds.
	But it's brothers.
	Seven years, like there's no reunion.
	There's no let's break bread.
	There's no we had two different lifestyles, two different groups of friends, but we were in touch.
	You know, so it wasn't a need to see each other.
	I know what he, I knew what he looked like.
	I didn't need to see him.
	So when let's go to the why on the information that you're thinking, you know, a story just came out, I think, four days ago.
	I'm sure you saw the story that came out four days ago.
	Maybe not.
	I don't watch everybody.
	Okay, so let me just read it to you.
	So Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's ex says he boasted about being a Mossad agent.
	Okay.
	Let me read this story to you.
	I don't know if you've seen this or not.
	Which ex is this?
	So Jane Doe is her name.
	Jane Doe 200, a former girlfriend and victim, is suing Jeffrey Epstein's state, alleging he boasted of being a Mossad agent and raped her.
	Epstein and Jelaine Maxwell hinted at the intelligence ties with Maxwell warning.
	It was not good to be Epstein's enemy.
	Despite appearing kind, Epstein exhibited explosive, uncontrollable anger towards others.
	Doe believed that she was in a committed relationship with Epstein, unaware he was abusing underage girls elsewhere.
	Epstein integrated into her life, making grand promises, introductions to influential people.
	However, in 2001, he violently raped her at his Manhattan mansion, leading her to fear reporting him due to claimed Mossad connections.
	This is four days ago, five days ago.
	What's today's date?
	Today's the 30th or the 29th?
	Today's the 29th.
	Five days ago.
	Did you have any speculation that your brother may be working for the Mossad?
	None.
	Zero.
	Zero.
	So it wasn't like, you know, hey, Mark, you know, and I be, you know, there's a lot of things that I'm doing and, you know, I'm working on a few things.
	Nothing was ever brought up.
	No, we didn't really talk about what he was working on.
	It was sort of like a joke whenever I would talk to him.
	I always ask him, I said, you know, what are you doing?
	Just a normal question.
	And he would tell me, well, you know, I'm in Paris.
	Next time I'd say, what are you doing?
	Because I'm on the island.
	So it became sort of like the equivalent of what are you doing to where he goes?
	You know, I don't know if he even realized he was doing it, but to me, it became a joke.
	I'd ask him, what are you doing?
	And he'd tell me where he was.
	Do you think if you think if you, there's missing pieces to getting to the bottom of some information, right?
	And, you know, I'm sure, I don't know if you're a movie guy or not, or you like movies.
	Okay, you ever seen the movie American Gangster with Russell Crowe and Denzel Washington?
	Yes, yeah.
	Okay.
	Remember when Russell Crowe is trying to figure out who the hell is this guy that's selling blue magic, right?
	And he's sitting in the room and he's got all these faces.
	He thinks it's, you know, Armando, you know, Asante.
	He's the guy, whatever the actor's name is in the movie.
	No, it's not.
	It's Barnes.
	It's this, it's that.
	And then all of a sudden he realized, holy shit, it's Frank Lucas who's selling Blue Magic.
	And then he catches, you know, the mistake with the coat that his wife gets him and then goes to a boxing match.
	Why is he sitting there?
	Why is everybody saying hello to him?
	And then they figured out, right?
	Do you think for someone like you as your brother, is it more important to you for the world to know who killed him or is it more important for you specifically to know?
	Because would you be happy if like, let's just say, you know, I don't know how old you are, early 50s, mid-50s.
	I don't know your age, but you're young.
	I'm 69.
	60?
	You're 69?
	Yeah.
	You look great.
	You can't see him.
	I can't see him.
	He looks great, right?
	And that's without makeup for camera, by the way.
	I offered it to him.
	He said, no, he doesn't want it.
	And, you know, it's okay.
	But you're 69 years old.
	With today's technology, you got 20, 30, 40 years left to live, right?
	Still got a lot of living.
	40 would be pushing it.
	Who knows?
	Depending on what some of the things Elon's working on, maybe 50 years left to live, right?
	But the point is, you got a lot of living to do.
	Would you be happy, content, living your life, knowing if only one person knew who killed him, which is you and nobody else?
	Would you be content with that?
	Well, it's not really for me.
	It's sort of like if he was killed, somebody shouldn't get away with that.
	Because for me, it's, you know, my brother's dead.
	He's not coming back no matter what I find out.
	But I think people should know the facts.
	But I think the reason why I'm asking that question is, would you be willing to work with anybody to find out and be involved on who was potentially behind it?
	Would you support being able to give intel, information in any possible way to get to the bottom of who killed him?
	Would you be open to that idea?
	Well, it helped, but I don't have any information that could help.
	Like I said, Jeff and I weren't on a daily basis, you know, close, and I don't know what he was working on.
	I don't know.
	Most of the people he dealt with had no idea he had a brother.
	I've met people who were surprised when I said that Jeffrey was my brother, including Bill Clinton.
	I met Bill Clinton and I told him Jeffrey was my brother.
	He was kind of shocked.
	He didn't know.
	No.
	Yeah.
	Got it.
	And the meeting had nothing to do with Jeffrey.
	Yeah.
	The meeting had nothing to do with it.
	Yeah, when I met Bill Clinton, it had nothing to do with Jeffrey.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Yeah, but I mean, you know, I get you saying that.
	And, you know, everybody's kids are going to have certain abilities that they picked up from their parents.
	And then things that they go learn on their own from other people they work with, right?
	You know, Trump's kids, you see how Junior speaks.
	I'm around Baron, and I kind of watch Barron, very similar to his dad.
	Ivanka, maybe he's got a little bit more mom and a little bit of dad.
	And then you kind of watch the kids on how they are.
	A lot of parents and in themselves, right?
	The same goes for a lot of different families, okay?
	You see the Kennedys, similarities, you know, Joseph being a guy at the top.
	There's a lot of power that's coming in from Joseph with his sons.
	Oldest son dies in war.
	He was going to be the president.
	He goes through depression.
	You know, youngest ends up becoming the president.
	That's the last guy they thought that was going to be president because he had back problems and all these other issues, but he ends up becoming it.
	But all of them, certain habits, women, all this stuff that they have, right?
	Robert Maxwell, I'm sure, you know, Robert Maxwell, the things he was involved with.
	Matter of fact, if you've never seen the movie Tetris, I don't know if you've seen the movie Tetris or not.
	Not that one.
	I think you would enjoy Tetris.
	He's in Tetris negotiating with Russia on how he wanted to get the rights to Tetris to buy, and they're offering this $3 million, $5 million.
	And you kind of see, and then Robert Maxwell's daughter, Jelaine, boom, and he was a media tycoon.
	And then you and Jeffrey, I watched some of his interviews.
	I watch how you speak.
	What were some of the values mom and dad taught when it comes down to having each other's back?
	Was it, hey, we always have each other's back.
	It's Epstein's first, family this.
	Was it those types of values mom or dad passed on to you guys or no?
	No, first of all, in making the comparisons, Jeff and I were not very much like our father.
	He was a simple, not a businessman, just a nice, good, quiet, content guy.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And my mother was more of the dominant parent or more parenting.
	Was she in business?
	No, no.
	She was just a good mother.
	She was just a good mother.
	A good loving mother.
	Yeah.
	And was it like loyalty, have each other's back, defend each other?
	Was it those kinds of values?
	Well, just we came from a close family.
	We had, you know, a lot of family around, and it was just a normal, happy kind of family situation.
	None of us had much to start with.
	And both of you ended up making money, right?
	You've done good for yourself.
	And he had, you know, the estimations of how much he had with his estate.
	Where did that drive towards the money come from?
	How did that happen?
	Was it a competitiveness?
	Was it somebody in the life that influenced it?
	No, it wasn't competitiveness because if we could help each other, we always would.
	It wasn't competitive.
	We were taught that we'd be able to get whatever we wanted, not because somebody would give it to us, but we were sort of raised to have the confidence that we could figure out what we wanted and figure out how to go about doing it and going after something.
	So we were raised to be very independent and very confident.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So and then you said the last seven years you guys didn't have spent a lot of time with each other.
	I'm assuming from a year and a half, my sons are a year and a half apart, to be exact, similar to yours, similar to you and your brother.
	Okay.
	They're best of buddies.
	They're, you know, they'll fight.
	They'll do all this stuff.
	You know, all these things that happen.
	And then, God forbid one doesn't see the other one for a day.
	They're bitching about it, right?
	I'm like, what happened?
	I thought you were under your own room.
	I thought you wanted to do this.
	And that relationship.
	How close were you guys when you guys were?
	Well, we were very close.
	Years ago, when we were younger men, we used to speak just about every day.
	But then life goes on.
	And you go, I had a family.
	I was more concentrating on raising children.
	Jeff was doing his stuff.
	And we stayed in touch, but just there wasn't any reason to get together anymore.
	If something would happen, we would get together.
	No similar interests.
	No Yankees, no Mets, no Knicks, no baseball cards, no collectibles, paintings, art.
	No, I mean, we were both into music, but in different ways.
	But like I said, he had his, we had some mutual friends from the old days, which occasionally we'd see, but they, most of the people we were close to left New York.
	So there was no reason where everyone would get together in New York anymore.
	And they said he was traveling the world in his directions.
	I was in mine.
	But we stayed in touch.
	Was there any time where you're kind of like, hey, as a brother to say, hey, man, you know, some of the stories I'm hearing in a market, you know, be careful, you know, what you're getting yourself into, you know, and how you're doing this.
	Was there any kind of conversations with the two of you guys or no?
	No, because that was his world, and I knew he could take care of himself in his world, and he knew I could take care of myself and my world.
	So it wasn't that kind of a relationship where feedback's being given to each other.
	It's just brotherly love.
	Yeah, and just laughing a lot.
	Got it.
	So when you see these stories, because it's not like the stories just recently happened, the stories have been happening and linked to your brother for a very long time.
	It's not like a brand spanking news story.
	It's like, hey, he's being linked to this, linked to that.
	How did you process that?
	Was it like, hey, Jeff, was this stuff true?
	Well, what happened in 2006, okay, when he first got into trouble, you know, he, I was in the city, New York City.
	He was in this.
	He asked me to come and see him.
	So I was uptown.
	I went to his place.
	And he told me that he was getting into trouble.
	He wanted me to hear it from him.
	I didn't know anything was happening up until that point.
	Then he told me that he was getting in trouble because he was with women that were too young.
	He told you that.
	He told me that because he wanted me to hear it from him.
	So instead of hearing it on the news.
	So that's how I found out about it.
	And what was the reaction?
	It's like, okay, we'll talk later.
	Well, I was, I, well, honestly, I said to him, I said, I'm glad mom's dead because I know this news would have killed her.
	I'm glad mom's dead.
	Yeah, because if my mother was, she had died two years prior.
	You know, and if she was still alive, I knew this news would have killed her.
	Was Pop still around or no?
	He passed away back in 91.
	Okay, got it.
	So this is 06, 04.
	So mom passed away in 04.
	Yeah, it was two years ago.
	Wow.
	Two years prior.
	So that's how I found out about it.
	And what was his reaction when he said that?
	He understood.
	And then from there, you're somebody that, you know, gives me the vibes that you're going to get the answer to any question that you want, where you're not going to just sit there and be like, yeah, suicide?
	Shit.
	Lost my brother.
	Okay.
	I'm going to trust the government.
	It's suicide and move on, right?
	Well, no, if it was truly a suicide, look, if they came out of the autopsy and said, yeah, this was clearly suicide, well, I would have mourned the loss of my brother and then gone on with my life.
	Because, like I said, I had assumed that it was a suicide because that's what I heard on the news.
	And I said, at that moment, I had no reason to doubt it.
	And looking at the bigger picture, but on the other hand, after the fact, you know, what's not really made public is that when Jeff was first arrested in July, his attorneys called me up and he told me he was arrested.
	You know, Jeff called me from Paris.
	It was a Thursday night.
	It's just a normal, how you're doing phone calling.
	And then the next day he flew home and he got arrested.
	So that was the last conversation I ever had with him was that phone call from Paris.
	And then he's arrested.
	His attorneys called me a couple of days later, told me that he was arrested.
	And they asked me if I would participate in his bail because it helps if other people participate.
	And I said, sure, put up my house in Florida for bail for him.
	Because I knew he wasn't a flight risk, and he's my brother.
	I was helping him out.
	And most people were then, well, who's this brother?
	Because now it became public that he had this brother putting up a house.
	Then I had everybody trying to find dirt on me because trying to link me to his activities.
	And they were writing things that were not true about me.
	I was getting death threats.
	I had to hire armed guards for a while.
	And then a few weeks later, obviously he didn't get bail.
	He was in jail.
	A few weeks later, they were going to appeal the decision for bail.
	And his attorneys called me up again.
	And Jeff was putting up a lot of money for bail.
	And they asked me if I would guarantee his entire bail, in essence, doubling it.
	And I said, yes, I will.
	So between his bail assets and my guaranteeing it, and another friend was putting up assets.
	It would have been the highest bail ever in the United States up to that point.
	I Googled it to see what the highest bail.
	What was the number?
	But the highest bail at that point in time was $100 million.
	So you guys were willing to put up more than $100 million bail.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Well, it's, you're not spending it.
	I totally get it, but there's still risk to it.
	Yeah, but I didn't really see there's a risk.
	And, you know.
	It's your brother.
	It's my brother.
	So I agreed.
	So the hearing for the bail appeal was coming up in a few days.
	I wasn't aware of the dates.
	I wasn't that close to the details.
	You know, he was dealing with his attorneys.
	This wasn't my thing.
	But I found out that the hearing was coming up in a few days.
	Now, the question becomes: why would he kill himself before that bail hearing?
	Because if he got bail with what would have been the then highest bail ever, right?
	He'd be living in his house in the city on 71st Street, which was a pretty nice house.
	You know, he'd have an ankle monitor on.
	He'd have arm guards to make sure he didn't disappear.
	Cameras all over the place.
	But he'd be living in his house, waiting for a trial a year later.
	Is that what prompted the fact that no, they took this guy out for a reason?
	Well, this was just part of the.
	Right.
	You know, why would he kill himself then?
	You know, I could understand more if he had the hearing and bail was denied again.
	And then he's facing spending a year in jail waiting for a trial.
	Then I could see if he wanted to take himself out, take himself out.
	Look, he didn't have any children to worry about.
	Our parents were gone.
	He knew he didn't have to worry about me.
	So if he decided to take himself out, I would have just accepted that as his decision.
	Yeah, so you see, that validates.
	By the way, what that tells me is that there is true love, brotherly love for each other for you to be willing to put up the money.
	Are you following the story of this guy, Rob?
	What's the guy's name that is being accused of killing these two girls?
	And he said, I drove over one of the girls until she was a spaghetti.
	You know what I'm talking about?
	No, I haven't.
	Have you been following with the tattoos on the side of his lips?
	He looks like the Joker.
	You know who he is.
	This is like the he's all over the place.
	Wow.
	No, not that guy.
	Have you guys seen this or no?
	Humberto, have you seen this or no?
	No.
	Okay, so I got to show you this.
	Wade Wilson.
	That's his name.
	Go to Wade Wilson.
	So Wade Wilson, he's on trial.
	This guy picks up two girls, kills both of them.
	One of them, he says he drove over so many times onto her.
	Her body was like a spaghetti, you know, like noodles.
	And then his father is testifying.
	So his father had him, you know, his father's ex had him when he was 15 years old.
	The father was 15 years old.
	So it's just one of those things that wasn't planned young.
	You kind of have the kid.
	And he's not in the picture.
	So the relationship's not the best.
	And the father is being asked, so when he called, what did he tell you?
	He says, yeah, my son called me and he said he killed somebody.
	I said, really?
	And then what did he say?
	He says, that's when I was on the phone.
	I had him on speaker and my wife was listening to the conversation.
	And then what did you do?
	And the father is not defending the son.
	You can tell there is no, you know, support and affinity between the father and the son, right?
	If a father doesn't defend the son, what else do you need to do?
	I mean, at this point of the game, it's over with, right?
	No one's going to sit there and think you're innocent.
	You're defending your brother.
	And a lot of bad things have been said about your brother and the things that he's done, right?
	But I'm not defending him criminally.
	No, not defending him criminally.
	You're defending his bail to sell.
	I'll put it up money-wise instead of saying, don't bother me.
	Kind of go mind your own business, go find somebody else.
	I don't have any relationship with the guy.
	A brother that doesn't have a good relationship with the brother wouldn't put up the bill.
	Would you agree with that?
	Yeah, yeah.
	That makes sense.
	So this takes me back to the question I was asking you.
	So when he calls you and he says, hey, Mark, I'm going to get in trouble because there's some things in 06 with young girls and you say, I'm glad mom is no longer with us because she had died two years prior to that.
	And then stuff pops up in the public.
	Did you ever want to go do your own due diligence and research to find out what really Jeffrey was up to that maybe he wasn't fully disclosing everything?
	Or you were not that curious to want to investigate your own brother?
	Well, I knew he had really good attorneys to do that.
	And as much as I love my brother, I also believe in, you know, you make your bed, you sleep in it.
	So it was his problem.
	He seemed to be dealing with it.
	You know, when I spoke with him, he wasn't way bent out of shape.
	He seemed to be sane and dealing with it.
	And there's really nothing I could do as his brother or anybody else.
	I'm not a criminal investigator.
	What would you suggest I could have done?
	I don't know what would be on that list.
	Oh, no, I'm not suggesting anything.
	I mean, a simple question would be, do you think, did you ever go to the island with him?
	Did he ever take you to the island with him?
	No, I was on that island once in 2000 at the Millennial New Year, the Y2K.
	I was in the Virgin Islands sailing around and I stopped at his island.
	He told me to see what he bought because he didn't fix the place up yet.
	He had just bought it.
	Well, I don't remember what year he bought it, but he didn't build it out yet.
	So I went to see what he had there.
	And he wasn't there at the time.
	So I just went to see what he bought.
	Oh, so he wasn't even at the place?
	When I was there, no.
	Was Jelaine at the place?
	No.
	Okay.
	Just the caretakers were there.
	The caretakers were there.
	So you were never there when there was a party and with the girls and all this stuff?
	No, like I said, we didn't hang out together.
	We didn't socialize together.
	When you heard all the news and the accusations that all these, hey, you know, Bill Clinton was flight log is this, and you see the flight log list with all these famous names that you hear about.
	I mean, you've seen the names.
	I don't need to tell you the names.
	So many powerful people that actually went to the island.
	Do you sit there and say, yeah, you know, he probably did some stuff he shouldn't have done and he's probably guilty of it, some of the things I did with the young, you know?
	Well, he told me he was getting in trouble for being with girls that were too young.
	He didn't deny that, you know, so I figured he was, you know, he was sort of accepting the fact that he was with girls that were young.
	Now, whether or not he knew they were too young, this, you know, again, I'm not trying to defend him, but people are telling me that girls have said that they were told to tell him that they were of age, that they weren't underage.
	This is, again, I like to stick with facts, so this is secondhand information.
	But journalists who have spoken to some of the girls have said that they were told not to tell him their true age.
	When you went into the house, did you see any famous paintings like, you know, the Bill Clinton painting people are talking about?
	I didn't see that painting, no.
	Oh, you didn't see it?
	Because this is 2000.
	Maybe it took a lot longer to paint that painting.
	Yeah, I don't know when.
	It's a legendary painting.
	So, okay.
	The Diddy case, are you following the Diddy case at all?
	No, not whatsoever, no.
	You're not a big Diddy guy?
	You don't listen to hip-hop?
	You're not a hip-hop guy?
	No.
	Well, I mean, I like some music, you know, but I'm not interested in Diddy.
	Okay.
	Well, let me kind of give you why I'm bringing the Diddy kids, which is kind of interesting, is the claims against Diddy by, you know, maybe Gene Diele, his former bodyguard that was with him all the time, or some of these other names that are coming and making acclaims, Jaguar Wright, and all this stuff.
	And all of a sudden, boom, they're raiding his Miami home and his L.A. home, right?
	Okay.
	And, you know, I go back and I sit there and say, well, if you went to a Diddy party, he had cameras everywhere.
	He recorded everything.
	So what if he's got videos on all these other people?
	And if he's got these videos, you know, they're worried that what if Diddy decides to leak those videos?
	And what if Diddy got so much power with these videos that he's negotiating it to get full protection and he's kind of pushing the weight a little bit too much?
	And hey, man, you just crossed the line and you're not as powerful as you think you are because these videos that you have and these tapes that we can really destroy your life.
	Well, if you do.
	And then you think, well, Epstein, who had all these parties and maybe people that went to his place, and everybody wonders, you know, how did Epstein even make his money?
	You know, your impression of the guy, you know, being a billionaire, six, seven hundred million dollars, what is your impression of how your brother made his money?
	Because he made a lot of money.
	He made a lot of money.
	Well, he started on Wall Street when he was young.
	And he started on Wall Street when...
	He was a math teacher before, right?
	Or something like that.
	Yeah, he taught math in the school in New York City.
	Well, he was very good at math.
	Let's just put it that way.
	And he was on Wall Street in the days when Wall Street was like the Wild West.
	And there was a lot of corruption going on.
	I remember we were still living in Brooklyn, and he started on Wall Street.
	And he came home one day.
	This got to be in probably the late 70s when he started.
	And he said to me, I'll never forget, he said, if the general population knew what was taking place on Wall Street, there'd be a revolution in this country.
	That's a direct quote from him in the late 70s.
	In the late 70s.
	Yeah, when he started on Wall Street.
	He was like the youngest partner on Wall Street.
	He became a partner in Bear Stearns.
	Got it.
	Yeah.
	And all the corruption going on.
	He looks like a skinny Lou Frigno here.
	I don't know if you know.
	Does he not?
	Am I like the only one?
	Put a Lou Frigno next to him.
	He looks like a Lou Frigno twin.
	That's why I'm laughing because it's so true.
	Type and Young.
	Yeah.
	Oh, my God.
	He looks just like Lou Frigno.
	No relation, right?
	No, no.
	Wow, that was a little too close.
	Look at that.
	That is wild.
	Very perceptive on your part.
	Yeah.
	So, okay, so late 70s, he says, if the market knew how much corruption there is.
	If the population knew how much corruption and what was taking place on Wall Street, there'd be a revolution.
	Did he ever break it down and kind of give you some ideas or not really?
	Yeah, yeah.
	He gave me a, for instance.
	What were some of the things?
	Well, one instance I remember, he said in the old days, you know, before they changed things, a broker would buy, say, a million dollars worth of stock in the morning.
	And then he'd maybe sell it at the end of the day.
	If the stock went up, he would then apportion it to the clients he liked.
	If the stock went up, he said, okay, I bought $200,000 for client A, $200,000, you know, for different people, and they'd get the gains.
	And if the stock went down for some reason, he can give the losses to whoever he wanted to give the losses to.
	So that's been changed.
	From what I understand now, well, brokers are not really around like they used to be.
	Everybody's doing their own work.
	But then when they changed it, when the broker bought the stock in the morning, he had to declare then who he was buying it for.
	So that if the stock went up or the stock went down, those people got the gain of the loss.
	He couldn't then give the gains to his friends and the losses, etc.
	So that was like just one simple example of what used to take place.
	Anything else he told you or no?
	Well, yeah, then he actually hooked up with an attorney and they started going after brokers that were ripping people off.
	I remember there was one case, I don't know who the client was, but the guy gave a broker $3 million to invest.
	And after a number of trades, the money was gone.
	And the broker basically said, well, you know, we made 10 trades and they all lost.
	Now, Jeffrey was a mathematician, and he knew that statistically, it's almost impossible to lose 10 trades in a row, just like it's almost impossible to win 10 trades in a row.
	Like the odds are kind of the same.
	So when he sees that every trade was a loss, even if you did it randomly, you're going to get some gains.
	So then they started digging into this and they found that there was a lot more trades made and money was mishandled and they would go after the broken reclaim money and whatever monies they reclaimed for the investors, they got 50% off.
	So they made a lot of money reclaiming money that was basically stolen from investors.
	This is what used to take place.
	So that's so that's so what was, but I mean, all of that stuff is great.
	But Mark, to go from half a million here, a million here, two million here, three million here, five million there, 10 million there, it's hard to make six figures.
	It's harder to make a million.
	It's harder to make 10 million.
	Six, $700 million?
	How do you make that kind of money?
	He made good investments.
	Do you know anyone the best investments he ever made?
	That he made?
	I don't know anyone particularly.
	I know we didn't talk too much about it, but I know at one point in time he owned, or was one of the owners, if not the owner, of the company that made football helmets.
	I think it's Rydell.
	You know, they make all the sports themed helmets.
	He bought that company.
	They were in trouble or something.
	And he eventually sold it and made a lot of money with that.
	I don't know the details of it, but I know he sent me a helmet.
	So I knew that he actually had the company.
	Who is this one guy that we did two stories on?
	The one billionaire that said he paid $120 million of consulting fee to Jeffrey Epstein.
	Oh, that was Black.
	Yeah, that's Black, right?
	Yeah, because I heard that on the news also.
	Yeah, Leon Black.
	Can you go up and just put Leon Black and put Epstein?
	Leon Black Epstein for estate planning is what I remember.
	Estate planning.
	He said he spent some, there it is.
	Okay.
	A billionaire paid Jeffrey Epstein $158 million for tax and estate planning.
	Look, you're a you're smart.
	Okay.
	And I would use the word astute.
	Who the hell has ever spent $158 million on estate planning services?
	I just did estate planning.
	Okay.
	And I know some of these estate planners that are the high-end estate planners that deal with billionaires.
	I was at an event a few weeks ago.
	Only 60 billionaire families were invited.
	I was there myself.
	We're at a Goldman Sachs event.
	It's in Chicago.
	It was a very intimate event.
	And even those guys use similar state planners that you go through and you can do unique ways of doing it.
	The irrevocable life insurance trust, the eyelets, all this stuff that you do.
	Okay.
	You want the world to believe Leon Black gave Epstein $158 million just for tax on estate planning services?
	If you're enjoying this interview as much as I enjoyed doing it when I was sitting with them, you may want to go order the shirt allegedly, because the word allegedly is used a lot in an interview like this, and it's right here.
	You can order the shirt.
	Last time we launched the allegedly shirt, sold out in no time.
	And trust me, it's very interesting the looks you get when you're in the airport at the gym.
	You got a shirt on that says allegedly, people will come and smile at you, laugh at you, but many times they'll say, where did you get the shirt from?
	So pause the video, place your order, and then go back to the interview.
	Take care, everybody.
	I'm not asking the world to believe anything.
	Do you believe that?
	Do I believe it?
	I have no reason to doubt it.
	Jeffrey was dealing with large sums of money for people.
	Look, if he saved the guy a billion dollars, I don't know.
	I'm just speculating, which I am reluctant to say.
	Totally fine.
	No, no, it's totally fine.
	But if he saved the guy a billion dollars or the company a billion dollars, well, that doesn't seem like an unreasonable fee.
	Can I give you another business model?
	Sure.
	So here's another.
	Let's just kind of, you know, since we're in business, maybe here's another business model.
	Another business model could be, hey, Leon.
	Okay, I'll give you a crazy story.
	Okay.
	I've been in the life insurance business for 20 years, okay?
	20-some years.
	And you haven't tried to sell me a policy yet?
	Not yet.
	No, no, no, believe it or not.
	Stopped selling a while ago, but we sold the agency two years ago.
	Matter of fact, today is what day 29 tomorrow is the last day of my earn out of two years.
	Okay.
	So it's been great.
	Yeah.
	And we increased EBITDA 78%.
	It's been good numbers.
	They're happy.
	Everybody's happy.
	It's been a very nice exit.
	So, but early on in my career, I'm 25 years old.
	And I hear this story about this one insurance executive, rock star, very good at what he was doing.
	Climbing up.
	He's going to make millions.
	Very good on stage.
	Great communicator.
	Doing very good.
	Married, three kids.
	I think I want to say he's Asian, Filipino.
	Not that that detail matters or not, but guys are telling horror stories to kind of get you from not making any mistakes.
	So one day he hires this young Asian girl that starts working with them to become an insurance agent.
	They go on appointments, one appointment, second appointment, third appointment.
	After the third appointment, she invites him back to her place.
	He says, no, I can't.
	He says, no, let's just go back.
	It's right here.
	We can just go here and you can show me some of the stuff on the needs analysis we did.
	Let's just go back.
	Goes back.
	They go to her place, one glass of wine, second glass of wine.
	They end up in the bedroom.
	And, you know, trust the science, science takes over, right?
	And extracurricular activities, et cetera, et cetera.
	He leaves.
	Goes home, doesn't see her for a week.
	A week later, a packet shows up.
	Back in the days, it was VHS.
	Takes the VHS, puts the VHS, shows everything that happened with a note saying, if you don't give me this much money and wire it to this account, this is going to be sent to your family.
	This is going to be sent to the company.
	And this is going to be sent to all your agents.
	The guy panics, doesn't know what to do, sends the money.
	She still sends the tapes.
	Destroys his life, destroys everything, but he made the decision.
	That's in the insurance industry, and it's only for $100,000.
	Now, can we speculate and say, what if your brother had some real dirt on Leon Black to say, hey, Leon, here's what I got, bro.
	And listen, we can go have a nice Bordeaux bottle of wine and have some, you know, high-end Japanese Wagyu beef with faux gras and sea urchin and whatever we want to have.
	And it's all cool.
	But dude, you need to wire me $158 million.
	And I've already talked to my lawyers because I've gone after people like you in the early 70s and the 80s when guys were stealing money from others.
	So I know how to deal with guys like you.
	If you can put a consulting services, tax and estate planning, because our legal, you know, you can do that.
	And no one's going to question it.
	And you can talk to your lawyers and everything, but I need $158 million in my account to be transferred to this.
	Do you think there's a possibility that that could happen?
	I don't think so because that's not the Jeffrey I knew.
	You know, to go after guys that stole money from him.
	You can hang out with them a lot, though.
	To go, but I know him for a long time.
	Okay.
	I mean, I'm not a kid anymore.
	Neither was he.
	To go after crooked brokers who screwed investors.
	That's more who Jeffrey was.
	Not to, I don't, I'd be surprised if he was blackmailing Leon Black for $158 million.
	Also, another interesting point.
	I mean, I doubt Jeffrey gave him wine and took him into a bedroom and has videotapes of Jeffrey and Leon Black.
	That's not what you're suggesting.
	That him and Jeffrey?
	Yeah.
	No.
	No, no, no.
	By the way, I'm being facetious and saying that.
	No, no, I'm saying he may have a video with Leon and a younger woman.
	No, I understand that.
	But the point I'm trying to bring out is that.
	We don't want to upset the LGBTQ community.
	Mark, don't do that because I don't want to upset the LGBTQ community.
	It's a shot.
	I'm not looking to upset anybody, but the journalists who I'm talking to, you know, pointed out that if that was the case, and with all the quote victims out there, none of them have said that they would traffic to anybody with names other than that girl, Virginia, okay, who first accused Alan Dershowitz and Prince Andrew.
	And she's recanted the Alan Dershowitz story.
	She said, no, that was a mistake.
	So, I mean, to me, and to a lot of people who hear this, that seems more implausible that she's accused.
	How do you sleep with somebody, assuming she slept with them?
	And then say, oh, no, it wasn't him.
	Or did she really sleep with him?
	There's a number of girls that have come out.
	That could be a one-off.
	If we go through the list of girls and the pictures and in the plane, young girls on his lap and all these other things.
	Are you even speculating that maybe even because you're not even doing that?
	You're saying that he did have a relationship with some underage woman because he called and told you.
	So you're not even using that card, right?
	I mean, we've seen this picture.
	We've seen a lot of different things.
	But all I'm saying is, that is a pretty powerful business model.
	That's a pretty powerful business model.
	I can give you a whole different story, and I don't want to go through it.
	But to go back to your initial question, is Jeffrey knew how to make money with investing.
	I don't think he needed to go down that road to make more money.
	Oh, Mark, come on, Mark, to make $158 million.
	He's made a lot of money in his life.
	No, but I get that.
	I'm not disputing that.
	And he was far from the richest guy on the planet.
	Can I ask you a question?
	You said something earlier.
	You said at the time I looked it up, it was going to be the biggest bill ever put up over $100 million, right?
	Right.
	You've been around how many rich people in your life?
	Plenty.
	Some, yeah.
	Okay.
	When have you ever heard a $158 million estate planning services paid for, especially in a case like this with a controversial figure like your brother?
	Mark, that's a little weird.
	Okay, but to be honest with you, I'm the wrong guy to ask that question.
	I'm not involved with the financial.
	No, I get that all of them.
	I'm not involved with estate planning, so I don't know what the norms are.
	I think you're being fair.
	But, you know, for one to sit down and do some of those services, that's a little bit weird to have that kind of a number being brought up.
	Okay.
	So let me ask you, when you see and they say, well, he probably had a lot of videos and he's kind of used this against them to hold them accountable and all the emails back and forth with Chase and how Chase was doing banking relationships.
	I don't know if you read that one where the Chase relationship with him with 2,000 email exchanges.
	I don't know what it was where a federal judge on this class action lawsuit with JP Morgan Chase had to pay $290 million to sexual abuse victims of Jeffrey Epstein, who claimed that the bank ignored warnings about the disgrace financier.
	I'm sure that I don't, you know, I don't intelligent enough about this to speak about that.
	I've heard about that, that Chase was in trouble, and that was a shock to me.
	I had no idea why a bank would be called on the carpet.
	I don't know what was taking place.
	So I don't know what to tell you about that.
	This is all news to me.
	Like I said, I've heard that Chase, and wasn't there another bank that also had to pay out?
	Oh, yeah.
	Was it?
	I don't want to mention a bank's name again.
	But I know Chase had to pay out.
	But again, I don't know why.
	I'm not interested in that stuff.
	I haven't been looking at it anymore.
	Because the thing I was concerned about was the circumstances of his, what I'll call his murder at this point in time.
	See, that's why I asked you a question at the opening, and I said, what's more important to you, the how or the why?
	You said the who, right?
	Right.
	And I think to me is if you figure out the why, you'll figure out the who.
	Okay, not the other way around.
	It's not figure out the who, you'll figure out the why.
	I think how, check, why, check, who, check.
	I think that's the sequence, right?
	It's how, why, who.
	So the why is the stepping stone for you to get to the who.
	Part of the who and part of the why, the question becomes like, assuming that he was killed, okay, and it wasn't a suicide, then the question becomes, well, who would have the power or the ability to have this done in a federal prison?
	If he's walking down the street and a car drove by and he got shot in the head, you know, that could have been anybody, you know, but to be killed in a federal prison, in a maximum security federal prison, not any Joe on the street could pull something like that off.
	So it becomes who would have the ability to put that together.
	Oh, you're kidding me.
	Come on, man.
	Mark.
	And who would have the ability to have the Justice Department report come out with so much bullshit?
	What do you think?
	Well, I've already given you my opinion.
	No, that guy doesn't have that much power because the president of the United States?
	You think the president has that much power?
	Are you seriously going to not?
	Listen, Mark, I like your humor.
	I think you're being fair.
	I think I'm having a lot of fun talking to you.
	You know, politically, you know, you've done stuff with Adam Schiff, with Maxine Waters.
	I've never met Adam Schiff.
	But you did something with them in the past.
	You were part of a.
	This is kind of the bullshit that's been put out about.
	It's an article.
	I can't read it.
	You could read the article.
	That doesn't mean it's true.
	There's a lot of things.
	Tell us what.
	No, I'm involved with an organization, and part of what we do is we run congressional delegations to different parts around the world.
	We take small groups of congressmen to different parts with, like, for instance, we took a small group of congressmen to Bahrain a number of years ago.
	Don't meet with the leadership of Bahrain, different ministers or presidents or whatever.
	They'll meet with the U.S. Embassy people on the ground.
	They'll meet with... Associated.
	So you're associated with Adam Schiff, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Maxine Waters.
	This is the, you were listed on the board of directors for the Humpty Dumpty Institute, having nothing to do with hip-hop, right?
	Right.
	Which works with the United Nations in an attempt to rebuild developing countries.
	Reported that a tax filing from Institute where Epstein sits on the board of directors showing that you loaned the international charity at least $100,000 in 2014.
	The group lists Democratic representative Maxine Waters, Adam Schiff of California, and Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida on the Congressional Advisory Board of the Institute.
	It was reported Epstein had a congressional delegation of Republican Democratic representatives to an event being held in Belgium in 2019.
	That's what I read.
	Yeah, and we've taken them to different places.
	Part of the thing is what's interesting, what people find interesting, is that our members of Congress, it's like 465, I think the number is, half of them don't have passports.
	They've never been anywhere.
	Congress members are voted in for local issues.
	Right.
	Okay.
	But they vote on foreign policy issues, of which they really are not well informed.
	Right.
	Because they've never been anywhere.
	So part of this was your way of.
	Well, not mine.
	It's the organization.
	This is what we do.
	So we take them to places where they can learn about what's taking place.
	Also, when we go to a place, we'll get them to meet with opposition leaders.
	So they get both sides of the story.
	That's right.
	When they come back, they can maybe spread some information to Congress.
	But it's fair to say you didn't campaign for Trump.
	You didn't campaign for Bush.
	You didn't campaign for McCain.
	You didn't campaign for Reagan.
	You didn't campaign and help those guys out, right?
	I don't campaign for anybody.
	Okay.
	But politically, you wouldn't consider yourself being a conservative.
	I don't consider myself anything.
	Because politically, I look for the best idea.
	I don't care if it comes from the right or the left, because the right has good ideas, the left has good ideas.
	I just look for the best idea.
	Fair.
	And I wish the government looked at it that way.
	Fair.
	And then do you believe an establishment and an anti-establishment exist?
	Do you believe in that premise?
	You'd have to define that.
	I don't give this kind of stuff very much thought.
	So you'd have to define what you mean by an anti-establishment.
	Okay, so let me turn your question this way.
	Do you belong to a country?
	I don't need the name.
	I'm just saying, have you ever belonged to a country club?
	No.
	Okay, me neither.
	Okay.
	I did for one week, literally.
	That's a fact.
	Because I went to the country club, called my wife, said, babe, there's no way I'm going to do this.
	I'm out.
	But let's just say you and I go to a country club.
	Okay.
	And we start hanging out.
	After this, you know, conversation we have, you say, Pat, can we go to dinner together?
	Me and you.
	We go to Casa D'Angelo.
	We have a nice dinner.
	We break bread.
	And then we meet the owner of Casa D'Angelo and says, hey, there's this country club, a lot of good business people.
	You guys got to come to it.
	We go to it.
	We join the country club.
	And we've been at this country club for a year, two years, three years, four years.
	And all of a sudden, we at this country club, someone comes to us and says, hey, we have voted for you to be the president of this country club after four years.
	And you become the president, I'm your vice president of this country club.
	That's been around for 100 years.
	Then there's a list of guys that have worked at this country club and had influential positions at this country club who have been there for 49 years, 43 years, 41 years, 38 years.
	I think you know where I'm going with this.
	Actually, I don't.
	I'm about to tell you where I'm going with this.
	Oh, I'm going to give it to you because that's a little bit of foreplay, and then there's the climax, right?
	Baby, go ahead.
	So the point is, who has more influence?
	Us, that we've been there for four years?
	Who has more deeper secrets of darker information and mistakes and challenges and dead bodies of this country club?
	Me and you, who just became members and they announced us as president and vice president, or some of these guys that have sat on the board and have been there for 38, 45, 49 years?
	Who do you think has more control over stories over the dead bodies and horror stories that they have?
	Well, probably the guys who've been there for a longer time, but I've never thought of that question before.
	It's not the world I come from.
	It's not the world I'm in.
	I don't participate in.
	I'm a member of the National Arts Club.
	That's the club I belong to.
	I love it.
	There's not a lot of politics involved with it.
	But this is the point I was making to you.
	You said earlier that your speculation was that the reason why this is being hidden is because of Trump and Bill Barr.
	And my point is the fact that the guy had never been in politics, comes in, anti-establishment, gets elected.
	And there's people that have been there for 30, 40 years who are part of the establishment.
	They know where everybody is buried.
	Trump has zero control over the establishment.
	They tell themselves, guys, just deal with this guy for four years and we'll get rid of him.
	Trust me, he's not going to be around.
	That's what I mean when I say a guy like that doesn't have a lot of power.
	When a new president comes in, they have what's called the secrets meeting, where before he takes office, he's sitting down and he's told this classified information he needs to know.
	My question is always, who's telling him that information?
	That's right.
	So then you're part of that.
	I'm a part of it.
	I thought about it.
	No, no, Mark.
	Don't include me.
	We're putting you in that group.
	You are part of this.
	No, but the point is, when I say you're part of that, meaning in your thought is who are the people that are briefing them.
	The other day I had this fellow on on a podcast.
	We're talking about Invention Secrecy Act of 1951.
	I don't know if you're familiar with it or not.
	In 1951, this one senator, I think, wrote this bill, John Sparksman, I think is his name, where they put these patents in there where they buy it from you because they think it's unsafe for the world.
	So let's just say you make a patent to create a car that can go 200 miles a gallon of water and you invented that.
	But it's going to put a half a trillion dollar industry, oil business in America out, $5 trillion industry worldwide.
	Listen, give us the patent.
	Here's $20 million.
	Keep your mouth shut.
	You can't ever sell it to anybody or else you're going to jail.
	They come up with this, right?
	They used to buy up the patents for light bulbs that wouldn't burn out.
	So you don't burn out.
	And they bought those patents because then this destroys an industry.
	So that's exactly it, right?
	So to me, that is an element of establishment to protect the establishment so it doesn't disrupt, right?
	So I believe when you're saying who are the people that give that report to them, that's why I don't think Trump has much power as you think he does.
	I think it's the people that have been there for 30, 40, 50 years who have been consistent that have power over that.
	So let me go back to it.
	So when you say, do you really think these guys can pass the laws and all this other stuff?
	Yeah, Leon Black and some of these other billionaires have the power with lobbying to buy a lot of laws.
	They can put the money to protect themselves from billions of losses.
	Isn't that called lobbying?
	That's exactly it.
	So that's the part with the power that these guys have.
	So that's why I say, you know, why would they pay $150-something million dollars to your brother for that kind of money?
	By the way, did you ever meet Jelaine Maxwell?
	Yes.
	What is she like?
	Well, I met her.
	Jeff and her met back in the 90s, in the early 90s, 91, I think, was her father and our father passed away the same year.
	And they became friends and they used to hang out a lot.
	And I used to see them a lot, usually in Florida.
	I'd go to Florida a lot because my parents lived there.
	My mother lived there.
	Got it.
	You know, so yeah, so yeah, I used to, we used to do things together.
	What was she like?
	She was fine.
	She was personable.
	She was very nice, as far as I know.
	Also, back in the 90s, my mother happened to be in a very bad car accident, and she was in the hospital for quite a while.
	And Gheline was very helpful in organizing nurses to take care of my mother.
	And so she was very helpful.
	So your memory of her is how she treated your mom.
	So it's all positive.
	Yeah, I had no negative memories of her from back then.
	You never had dinner with her and all of a sudden, you know, food came in.
	The steak wasn't medium rare and she snapped at the waiter or things like that?
	No, I don't think we ever had dinner out anywhere because both Jeff and I are not big restaurant fans.
	I think we had dinner together.
	It was usually either his house or something.
	I mean, maybe, maybe a couple of times.
	No, but I've never seen the behavior you're speaking of.
	You don't trust restaurant owners?
	It's a lack of trust in.
	I own a restaurant.
	Be careful.
	Oh, well.
	Forgive me.
	My apologies.
	Please.
	I don't want to upset you.
	Okay.
	So Jelaine, Robert Maxwell, did you ever meet Robert?
	No.
	Okay.
	What do you think about Robert Maxwell as a personality?
	Well, all I see is what everybody else has seen in the paper.
	He was a very successful guy.
	Supposedly he was tied with Mossad, and he ended up in financial trouble, and he raided the pension accounts of his employees.
	You don't know as much as I know.
	You don't know what I know about Robert Maxwell.
	And he was either killed or jumped off of his boat.
	Yeah.
	That's my knowledge of Robert Maxwell.
	And did that conversation, my father, ever come up with Jelaine or not really?
	Not really, no.
	Okay.
	Because at that point in time, I didn't see them very much anymore.
	Got it.
	Yeah.
	You know, going back to the Diddy part, and maybe a part of my goal is to get you to become a hip-hop fan by the time we're done.
	But with Diddy, when I got a call from Suge Knight, I don't know if you know who Suge Knight is or not.
	Yeah, I know.
	So one day I'm sitting around.
	I get a two months ago.
	One of my guys says, hey, Suge wants to talk to you.
	And I get on the phone and this Suge collect call from jail.
	Hey, hey, hey, hey, Patrick.
	Hey, Pat.
	Hey, PBD, how you doing?
	Hey, just want to know, you know, the hood fucks with you.
	I'm like, all right, cool.
	So we start talking.
	I'm a hip-hop guy.
	Followed him.
	We were on a flight one time from Burbank to Vegas together, me and Suge, and years ago.
	And this is a regular Southwest Airline flight from Burbank, Bob Hope Airport.
	And I said, hey, Suge, question for you.
	I said, what is the stories about, you know, Diddy hanging out with 13-year-old Usher, living with him for a year, allegedly, Rob, if we can see what the timeline was.
	And Justin Bieber goes there as a young boy and stays with him on all this stuff.
	They're kind of weird stories.
	He says, you know, well, he says, do you think those types of behaviors are natural or taught?
	He says, Diddy didn't do that on his own.
	He was taught that behavior.
	And I said, okay.
	Taught that behavior by who?
	This is what Suge Knight claimed.
	Okay.
	Shuge Knight claimed by men like Clive Davis.
	I don't know Clive Davis.
	I've never spoken to Clive Davis.
	I've never done an interview with him.
	But I've read a lot of weird things about Clive Davis over the years.
	Interviews, he said some very weird things.
	Strange answers that he's given.
	But it made me think he's right.
	You hear stories about many times when a person goes to jail, they become even a better criminal because it's a university to know how to do additional type of crime, right?
	Did you ever have any friends or peers or people you saw Jeffrey?
	Because the way you're explaining, happy family, mom, you said right kind of mom, raised the right way, you know, all this stuff.
	And then all of a sudden, boom, you pick up bad behavior.
	Did you ever see him get associated with certain men?
	You're like, Jeffrey, stay away from that guy.
	That guy gives me the bad vibes.
	Did you ever have any experiences like that?
	No, because we didn't socialize together.
	So I didn't meet the people he was hanging out with.
	And he didn't meet the people I was hanging out with.
	I remember, I saw him, I didn't see him for seven years.
	Yeah.
	And so that puts it back to 2012, right?
	My mother passed away in 2004.
	And between 2004 and 2012, maybe I saw him a half a dozen times.
	So like I said, we lived different lives, different worlds, different friends.
	Never saw anybody, huh?
	No.
	I mean, years ago, there were some people that, like, he was involved.
	I thought you were going, when you first started talking about the money thing, I thought you were talking about that guy Hoffenberg.
	I had met Hoffenberg once back in maybe in the 90s or the early 2000s.
	What did you think about him?
	It was just a guy doing business with Jeff.
	He seemed okay.
	We didn't talk business.
	I didn't know what they were involved with.
	I just knew they were partners on something.
	What happened with Hoffenberg?
	He ended up going to jail for some kind of Ponzi scheme thing.
	And they were in business together?
	They did some work together.
	They were involved in some way, shape, or form, the details of which I don't know.
	Can you type in Hoffenberg and Epstein?
	I actually, I did meet him once after Jeff died.
	I spoke to him once after that because I had questions about.
	What did he tell you?
	No news, nothing to report.
	I almost forgot that I spoke to him.
	Yeah.
	Jeff Harry is a mentor.
	Oh, this guy was a mentor to him who once ran a Ponzi scheme, was found dead.
	He was 77.
	Wow.
	So, okay, so this is what I mean by it.
	And so, Hoffen 77, Rab died seven years ago.
	His body was found Tuesday at Derby by police responded to a check on welfare.
	His welfare authorities say he identified dental records because his cause of death is pending toxicology, test results, and autopsy shows no signs of trauma, and there was no indications of a struggle or forced entry.
	The apartment go a little lower, Rob.
	Epstein, the disgraced financier who killed themselves in New York.
	I hate when I see that.
	When they say that, so to kill themselves bothers you more than a disgrace.
	Yes.
	While awaiting trial on allegations, he sexually abused Denzel Hoffenberg, worked for Hoffenberg's bill collection.
	Oh, this is the guy that they would go and collect the monies from the bad broker.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	In the late 80s, when prosecutors said the Ponzi scheme began, what was the business model?
	Hoffenberg, who once tried buying the New York Post, ended up getting busted in one of the country's largest frauds.
	He admitted to swindled thousands of investors out of $460 million and was sentenced in 1997 to 20 years in prison.
	He claims Epstein was actually the architect of the scheme, but Epstein was never charged.
	He was released from federal custody in 2013, according to the Bureau. prisons.
	It was not immediately clear how he ended up living in a small apartment and multifamily home in Derby, about 12 miles, Bridgeport.
	Gary Bass, one of Hoffenberg's friends and lawyers and a former acting deputy as general, said Hoffenberg and Epstein had a special relationship and Hoffenberg and Epstein was a smart, said Epstein was the smartest person he knew when it came to money.
	Said Hoffenberg was also very intelligent, which may have contributed to the downfall.
	He was way too smart for his own good.
	He thought he could get away with the Ponzi scheme, but he could not.
	He did not have self-control.
	He always thought he was smarter than the next guy.
	And that was one of the problems, but he was a good man.
	So he was more, Hoffenberg was more.
	Rob, can you go back to Hoffenberg's Wikipedia, if you could?
	He was more like a, who's the guy that did the $52 billion that they made a video about him, movie, a documentary about him, and Pacino, I think, starred him, or De Niro starred him.
	You know who I'm talking about, Rob, the guy from New York?
	You know who I'm talking about.
	Who did the $52 billion scheme in New York?
	What's his last name?
	Madoff, right?
	So was Hoffenberg like a Madoff or you don't know?
	I have no idea.
	I met Hoffenberg a couple of times briefly and didn't give me any indication of who he was.
	And I never met Madoff.
	Pleaded guilty for only seven to 20 years, plus $1 million fine for every reason of restitution around these schemes.
	Family.
	Okay, so you met him.
	So your impression of him was what?
	Was he a sharp?
	What was he like?
	He just seemed like one of Jeffrey's associates that, you know, they didn't leave in any strong opinion or negative or positive.
	So one of his opinions, but the way they're writing it, they're saying that this guy could have been his mentor.
	You weren't aware of that.
	I knew they worked together.
	They did some stuff together.
	I don't know the details of the relationship.
	See, this is where I'm going with this because you know Jordan Belfort from Wolf of Wall Street?
	You ever seen the movie Wolf of Wall Street?
	Sure.
	Okay.
	So first time Jordan and I'm talking to him somewhere in Manhattan Beach, I said, so tell me about your family.
	Well, this is that.
	I said, what were you supposed to be?
	So I was supposed to be a doctor.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	What was your major?
	I think he said biology, if I'm not mistaken.
	And I said, so how did this happen?
	Well, you know, I get out.
	I want to be somebody, good family, nothing in the upbringing of mom and dad.
	So you can't blame the mom and dad.
	It was, and then stocks, boom, penny stocks learns bad habits, J.T. Marlin, and then, you know, whatever the company's name is, not J.T. Marlin.
	I think that's from the movie Boiler Room.
	But anyways, he starts this company, and the next thing you know, he makes, so he learned his bad habits from somebody.
	I'm just curious to know where he picked up some of these habits.
	Do you know when's the first time Jeffrey Epstein and Jelaine started spending time together?
	Yeah, I think it was 91 or 92.
	At that time, had he already been accused of underage girls or not yet?
	No, that wasn't until the early 2000s.
	So do you think maybe the underage girls, because some people say that Jelaine played a big role in recruiting the girls and bringing them in and grooming in.
	Do you think a part of that maybe was brought in from Jelaine?
	I don't know, but I've heard the same stories you've heard, but I can't comment on it.
	Again, to me, it goes to the how, why, who.
	Okay.
	On the why side, when you hear Mossad, how much thought you put into that?
	That he could have been a Mossad agent?
	Very little.
	Very little?
	Yeah.
	It's either like, you know, I can't confirm it or deny it.
	I don't know.
	So I don't, things I don't know, I don't speculate on.
	I want to read this one story to you from, let me see if I can find this.
	Let me find this.
	All right.
	So let's see which one this is.
	Yeah, so here we go.
	Epstein was rumored to be associated with intelligence.
	The U.S. journalist Dylan Howard, Melissa Cronin, and James Robertson linked Epstein to the Israeli Mossad in their book Epstein, Dead Men Tell No Tales.
	They relied for the most part of the former Israeli intelligence officer Ari Ben Manashe.
	According to him, Epstein's activities as a spy serve to gather compromising material on powerful people in order to blackmail them.
	There's also a possible connection to the Mossad via Jelaine Maxwell, whose father, Robert Maxwell, is said to have been, had contacts with the Mossad.
	Epstein's victim, Virginia Juffre, also alleged Epstein to be an intelligence asset linked on Lincoln on Twitter to a Reddit page that alleged Epstein being a spy running a black male operation.
	This continues.
	A U.S. attorney in Florida, later U.S. Secretary of Labor Alexander Acosta, reached a settlement with Epstein's lawyer, including Alan Dershowitz, in 2008, which allowed him to receive a very light prison sentence.
	Acosta later reportedly stated that he was told that Epstein belonged to intelligence and that the issue was above his pay grade.
	According to Costa, he was pushed to give him a good deal.
	And former diplomat and CIA director William Burns met with Epstein three times, according to CIA spokesperson Burns, hoped that Epstein would help him transition to the private sector.
	So, you know.
	The key for me and all of that is all of these things were started with rumor has it, this is alleged.
	You know, show me facts, and then they take things seriously.
	Because there were a lot of things rumored and alleged about me that I know were not true.
	So when I hear things are rumored and alleged, it already starts off with a grain of salt.
	You know, it's like in the movie, you ever see the movie Aaron Brockovich?
	Of course.
	Okay, there's a scene where she's saying that you have to go after PG ⁇ E.
	And Ed, the lawyer, is saying, well, we have to go after PG ⁇ E corporate because the local PG ⁇ E is not where the money is.
	And he goes, you know, you have to show that PG ⁇ E corporate knew about it.
	And she said, of course they knew about it.
	I mean, everybody knows they knew about it.
	And he said, show me the document that proves it.
	So it's this kind of thing.
	People are alleging things.
	And things have been alleged about me.
	I hear that and I say, okay, this is what they're alleging.
	You don't give me naive vibes.
	You don't give me naive vibes at all.
	You give me vibes of someone that if you're curious, you want to get intel, you put the time to go pursue it and figure out what it is.
	And you also give me the vibe that you can juggle the speculation to kind of get to the bottom of something and use logic and reason and facts and data and all of that.
	Here's where I'm going with this.
	If you and I buy 20% of a company, nowadays it's not on a handshake.
	We document it and we put on a deal.
	And that may take 30, 60, 90 days to close, right?
	Depending on how much the money is and what kind of a, are we buying private, public?
	It could be faster or slower, right?
	That's why I don't take partners in anything.
	You and I both.
	But that's what?
	That's documented, right?
	You document that.
	Okay.
	If I sell a house and you're my real estate agent, we're going to have an agreement that you're going to come and say, can you sign this?
	That I'm your representative.
	Anything you saw goes through me, and then we decide 90 days, 180 days a year, whatever.
	What?
	Bullshit, bullshit.
	All of these things require document.
	When you become a CIA operative or a Mossad, they don't say, let's write this contract.
	There is no contract.
	CIA and Mossad is like this.
	There is no arrangement because neither party wants to put that in place.
	You know that, I know that.
	So if you're waiting for proof to see that he was Mossad, because you're going to see a contract saying that, you know, such and such is a Mossad, that'll never happen, not in your lifetime and my lifetime.
	And then, you know, for all the other thing to avoid speculating, if let's speculate that he was.
	Let's say he did play the role.
	And let's say he did provide, you know, certain assets and information for Israel, Mossad, whoever it may be.
	And let's speculate that he did have all these parties.
	People came over.
	He has tapes, video, all that.
	Speculate is what we're doing.
	If Israel had access to that information, how valuable would that be?
	And how much influence would they have to be able to get U.S. politicians to do for Israel what Israel wants to be done for them?
	If they had that.
	Well, it's a big if, and if they had it, they would have influence.
	The exact amount, I don't know.
	I'm not, don't travel those circles.
	Yeah.
	And also, just to address something you raised before about the Humpty Dumpty Institute and the Congressional Advisory Committee, yes, those people were on the Congressional Advisory Committee.
	It's not a committee that had meetings.
	Okay, these were people that were liked what Humpty Dumpty was doing and supported our activities.
	I didn't come up with that name, though.
	I mean, Mark, that's a concern.
	Who was the branding team?
	Well, it was what happened, a group of us, we were involved, part of the United Nations Association.
	This goes back like 30 somewhat years.
	And what we were doing in those days, one of the things, we were heavily involved in landmine eradication, getting landmines removed from around the world.
	And we found that the UNA was kind of a great organization.
	It was very bureaucratic.
	We had started their project called Adopt the Minefield.
	The United Nations had a book of different minefields that really needed clearing, certain villages and different places.
	And there was a price tag associated with what it would cost to clear a particular mine area.
	So we would then partner.
	We'd find organizations that wanted to get active.
	And let's say a school group figured they could raise $50,000 to fight landmines.
	Well, they'd go through the book and they'd find a landmine that needed $50,000 to clear.
	And they would adopt the minefield.
	Got it.
	So we put that together as part of the United Nations Association.
	And we were flying back from a trip to Africa because we had worked in Angola and Rwanda and different places.
	And we figured we can probably be more effective as a small private group than doing it through the UNA.
	So we separated from the United Nations Association.
	We left the Adopt a Minefield program with them because it was started under their auspices.
	And we started the Humpty Dumpty Institute.
	It became a takeoff because if you look at the nursery rhyme, okay, it's all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty back together again.
	Well, the king's horses are the military, and the king's men are the politicians.
	They can't do it.
	So we decided that to get these things done, we needed a public-private partnership.
	So we worked with the government to get things done.
	We got a lot of funding from the government back in those days.
	The U.S. Department of Agriculture supported a lot of the landmine eradication by giving us excess commodities.
	Like we'd get powdered milk.
	The U.S. government's sitting on billions of tons of powdered milk.
	And so they gave us some to sell in countries, and we used that money to clear landmines.
	They gave us a few million dollars worth of red lentil beans to clear the landmines in Sri Lanka.
	You know, so these are the kind of projects that we do.
	So the Humpty Dumpty Institute became about putting the pieces back together again with public-private partnerships.
	And that's the history.
	And we were told when we asked people, they said, if we can get past the laugh factor for two years, it'll be made.
	And it's, and if you go to the UN, and well, see, your laugh.
	But at least you guys knew.
	Oh, well.
	Because all I think about is the Humpty Dance is your chance to do the hump.
	That's all I think about.
	If you go to the United States, if you're dealing with the United Nations and the world of NGOs.
	Rob, I'm sorry, I go there.
	So we're an NGO, you know, non-governmental.
	Sure.
	And if you're dealing in that world, you have UNESCO, you have tons of acronyms.
	It's all letters.
	Okay.
	You don't remember those letter names.
	People remember Humpty Dumpty.
	Yeah, I mean.
	It's a very effective name.
	Unfortunately.
	Because we made it past the two-year laugh factor.
	It stuck.
	Every time I hear the Humpty Dump, I'm going to think of two people.
	I'm going to think about Humpty and you.
	Okay.
	That's where I'm going to go.
	And you were compelled to say that.
	You said this.
	You brought this story up after I asked you if your brother was a Mossad agent and he did have those tapes of very powerful people in different political places like Prince Andrew, like the U.S. government, like billionaires.
	How valuable would that be to the Israeli government to leverage in a way they negotiate with political people and billionaires around the world?
	You said yes, that's a big if.
	If yes, that's very powerful.
	Then you went into telling the story.
	Why did you transition into bringing in the Humpty Dump?
	No, because I wanted to clear up the point about the connection with Adam Schiff.
	Okay, I got you.
	Yeah, I got you.
	Even though we have a connection, we've never met.
	We don't sit down with a congressional advisory committee.
	These are the things that you've got.
	I just learned you don't like restaurants because you own one, so you don't go to restaurants.
	I go to some, but I prefer to eat at home.
	Eat at your place.
	Any final thoughts before we wrap up?
	Because to me, I mean, I'll finish up with maybe this one here and then give you the final words.
	You know, Megan Kelly said something.
	I don't know what the date was on this one.
	Megan Kelly came out and said earlier this year, maybe even January or something like that.
	She said, we're going to hear a lot more about Jeffrey Epstein in the coming year, and you may even be hearing from him directly.
	What did she mean by that?
	I actually have no idea.
	Jeffrey's dead.
	I don't know if she meant that he's not dead.
	I think she may have said that he, because when she said that, some people are like, oh my God, Jeffrey's on an island with Elvis and Tupac.
	That's what they're doing.
	You know, they're playing backgammon, and we're going to hear about them all at the same time.
	They're going to come out, right?
	I think if they were on an island, they wouldn't be playing backgammon.
	It's a good game.
	You know, it's a good game.
	I don't know if you've played it or not.
	I used to.
	You don't play it anymore?
	No.
	What's your game?
	What do you play games or you have a problem with games?
	No, no, I keep myself busy with projects I work on.
	No Soduco, no mind screws.
	Crossword puzzles.
	Okay, fair enough.
	Every morning I do.
	I respect it.
	Crosswater puzzles.
	So I think the way I saw one, Megan said it is maybe.
	Have you seen the recent, is it Bad Boys 4?
	Have you seen the one that just came out?
	I just took my kids to go watch it.
	And they play a clip of the original, what do you call their boss?
	What was their boss's name in Bad Boy 4?
	In the Bad Boy 1-2, what is a guy's name that he has to do WUSA?
	Do you know who I'm talking about?
	That guy, what's his name?
	Zoom in.
	Conrad Howard.
	Okay, so that's their boss, right?
	And In this, he starts speculating and thinking that people on the higher ups are using the government to steal money from people.
	Oh, what a shock.
	Yeah, I mean, that would never happen, right?
	And he makes a video saying, if you're watching this video, I'm dead.
	And here's what you need to know.
	Dot, dot, dot.
	Do you think your brother for as smart as, you know, is it Hoffman?
	What was the other guy's name?
	Hoffenberg?
	Hoffenberg that said your brother's the smartest man he's ever met, math guy, calculating.
	You think your brother would ever allow the world to do what they did to him, knowing the fact that he has all this information without having a dead man's switch in place where, you know, you're going to come out and say, you're going to do this?
	It's going to be released to everybody.
	You think your brother would have tape that could potentially leak all if it was.
	Well, if he was the guy you're trying to portray here, he might have had a tape like that.
	But I don't think that was who Jeffrey was.
	And not because he's my brother.
	I'm more than willing to admit when he says he did something, or I know he did something.
	He did it.
	I'm not here to defend him just because he's my brother.
	I won't do that.
	That's why I don't address the charges against him because he told me that he was with girls that were underage and he had lawyers to defend him.
	That's their job.
	That's not my job.
	I'm just concerned about the death, the untimely death of my brother.
	Now, he didn't know, you know, when he came back from France, he didn't know he was getting arrested.
	He had a non-prosecution agreement with the government.
	He wasn't supposed to be tried again for the same charges.
	And that's what they were basically doing.
	And they were starting to say, well, this is New York.
	That was the Southern District or something.
	And I'm like, well, he had a deal with the federal government.
	And as far as I know, we have one federal government that'll take you from Alaska to Hawaii.
	And if you have a deal with the federal government, that should cover the entire United States.
	So why was he being charged with the same crimes that he had a non-prosecution?
	And that was a big part of his upcoming defense, from what I understand.
	So that's why he was surprised he was in jail.
	And that was the defense he was looking forward to pushing forward.
	If you listen to David Schoen on the Crime Waves podcast, I don't know if you know about that.
	He says that this was the defense, part of the defense they were looking to put forward.
	And then obviously he turns up dead.
	Final thoughts?
	Sure.
	I just want to find out who had my brother killed.
	And I want to find out why.
	Okay.
	We could work together.
	They go hand in hand.
	Yeah, I'd shake your hand with the camera and see I'll do it afterwards.
	Mark, I appreciate you for coming out and agreeing to do this.
	And you were kind enough to allow this to extend past the hour, hour and a half mark.
	We cover a lot of different things.
	And these types of interviews, the great thing about these types of interviews is this also prompts others to go and do their own due diligence.
	And who knows what they come up with it?
	Well, that's why I've been doing these this past year.
	Look, for four years, we were trying to find out what position his body was in when he was found.
	Yeah.
	Because that's very important.
	Okay.
	Couldn't get that information.
	And then last June, the Justice Department finally came out with a report.
	And if you read it, I think it's on page somewhere around page 70 when they describe how his body was found.
	It's in opposition to the results of the autopsy.
	They don't match.
	That's why a new group of forensic pathologists are reviewing the case because there's things that don't make sense.
	Just a 120-page report you were talking about.
	Yeah, look at page, like somewhere around page 70 or 71 describe how he was sitting.
	Well, if you have a minute, they say he was in a basically seated position with his legs extended in front of him, and he was hanging from the top bunk.
	And when they cut him or tore him down, you saw the news that his buttocks were an inch and an inch half off the ground.
	Okay.
	So that means he's been hanging.
	We know for at least two hours he was dead, supposedly, if that's all.
	So he was hanging that way for over two hours.
	And if that's the case, if when someone dies, there's a thing called lividity.
	You know, your blood settles in your body.
	That's why they tell you, never move a dead body.
	Because if they find a dead body laying on its stomach and its back is blotchy from blood pooling there, well, you know, the body's been moved.
	It's been turned over.
	Because if you die in your back, your back, after a couple of hours, your back starts getting blotchy from the blood settling.
	So the way they describe that he was hanging, well, the back of his legs and his buttocks should show signs of lividity of the blood settling down his body.
	They're clear.
	I can show you a picture of his legs.
	They're as clear as yours and mine.
	Very unlikely.
	And since it seems like he was longer for a lot more than two hours, dead for more than two hours because of the shaving, he was clean shaven, he should have lividity in his legs.
	And he has some on his upper back, you know, that so that's a question.
	Another question, if he was going to kill himself, why shave that day?
	Yeah, you brought that up at the beginning.
	Yeah.
	When I spoke to someone about Dr. Baden, I was asking him about that.
	He said that's rare.
	He goes, guys usually don't care what they find.
	He said when women commit suicide, a lot of times they do it by overdosing on pills.
	And he goes, a lot of times when they find women, suicide victims from pills, they have lipstick on and makeup.
	They want to be found looking good.
	Get out of here.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I was shocked when he told me that.
	I said to him, I said, it's amazing the kind of information you have about these kind of things.
	Yeah, when women commit suicide, they tend to want to be found looking pretty.
	So they put makeup on.
	Guys don't usually take care about that.
	So again, why, and Jeffrey wasn't the kind of guy to shave every day, you know, so why would he have shaved if he was going to kill himself later that day before his bail hearing?
	You know, it doesn't end up.
	If you were in his position, would you kill yourself a few days before you might get bail?
	Listen, I'm not part of the camp that believes it's suicide, so I'm not there at all.
	I'm part of the camp that he was taken out.
	Well, yeah, well, let your listeners think about those questions.
	No, of course, for sure.
	Trust me.
	Every one of the interviews I watch, you do 20 minutes, 30 minutes.
	I'm like, I want to see him sit down and talk.
	Today, a lot of questions I had, you answered, and I'm glad.
	It was very helpful.
	And I learned even more on what else I want to leave and go looking at myself.
	And I'm sure the audience is going to go look at a bunch of other things.
	Give me one of these here on camera.
	Appreciate you.
	We did get your, you guys, did you see that?
	We did get it.
	That is his hand in the flesh.
	Mark Epstein.
	Appreciate your time.
	Gang, take care, everybody.
	Bye-bye.
	Bye-bye.
	Has your mind blown up yet?
	Have you like sat there and said, I cannot believe what Mark just said to me, allegedly.
	This interview is a perfect interview to go sport the gear.
	Allegedly, if you haven't ordered your shirt yet, click here, the QR code, go to vtmursh.com, place your order allegedly.
	It's one of the hottest items we have in our merch store.
	Take care, everybody.

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